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Female genital mutilation,Haram---Female circumcision,Halal

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  • #46
    Originally posted by surfinjo
    Can anyone, more skilled that I at searching the Islamic texts, say if there is any reference to when a circumcision should be performed?

    Is it actually specified that it must be performed on young children?
    Female Circumcision: Is It Really Obligatory?

    Islamic Ruling on Female Circumcision

    The issue of Female Circumcision by Jamal Badawi

    What is the Islamic ruling on female circumcision? by Ebrahim Desai

    Ruling on female circumcision

    Circumcision: how it is done and the rulings on it
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    • #47
      abdulhakeem

      thank you for the links. I've read through them twice, with a break between.

      I can't find any mention of when the ritual is suppose to take place.

      I believe that I read a while ago that a child is not expected to fully embrace Islam until he or she reaches a certain stage of maturity.

      With this in mind, would it not be preferable to not circumcise a child until it is at least old enough to embrace Islam?
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      • #48
        Originally posted by surfinjo
        ...I can't find any mention of when the ritual is suppose to take place.

        I believe that I read a while ago that a child is not expected to fully embrace Islam until he or she reaches a certain stage of maturity.

        With this in mind, would it not be preferable to not circumcise a child until it is at least old enough to embrace Islam?
        The time for circumcision

        Circumcision of infant boys

        Ruling concerning circumcision for a man who becomes Muslim at a mature age

        Circumcision for men
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        • #49
          According to the testimonies of women who underwent FGM at a young age, it was a painful, brutal experience without benefit of sterile equipment or anesthesia.

          Any adult here willing to undergo the same?
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          • #50
            I'm glad I was circumcised.

            Pity the smegma-ridden unbelievers!

            :rotfl:

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Sultan
              I'm glad I was circumcised.

              Pity the smegma-ridden unbelievers!

              :rotfl:
              So you are in favor of the removal of the tip of the foreskin (circumscision) in males?

              And the partial removal of the ****oral hood (circumscision) in females?

              But what about FGM (Female Genital Mutilation) where the actual ****oris is often removed, the labia removed, and sometimes the vagina sewn shut?

              Are you in favor of such a procedure being performed on yourself (were you a woman)...under unsterile conditions with no anesthesia administered, or performed on your female family memebers?
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              • #52
                i dont see sultan supporting that sis mariam. you need to chill out before taking someone's post out of context. circumcision in males is good, uncircumcised people are dirtier down there and have a greater tendency to devolop penile cancer.
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                • #53
                  another long 'un...! sorry!

                  this discussion is so 'tangented' if that's even a word.

                  surfinjo: men who are cricumsized at infancy do not grow up to have issues. they are fully functioning happy humans. I don't see why non muslims (the likes of bridget bardot et al) have to go around trying to get rights for children who always grow up being perfectly fine with what has happened to them. IN FACT in the last few years men in western countries who are not circumsized undergo the process at adulthood for what they regard to be "aesthetic" and hygene reasons. How about focusing your attention on the people in the world who actually want your help instead of those who have no interest in recieving it.

                  If girls are circumcised PROPERLY with good sanitation etc. and at infancy the process in my opinion (from what i as a women understand of the female anatomy, although i am sure a doctor would know better) can not be considered mutilation. I may even go as far as concurring that it could in many ways be beneficial for certain reasons. (which i don't feel like talking about because i can become rather prudish at times)

                  I must point out that women undergo similar proceedures and more in the name of aesthetics etc in the westren countries where plastic surgey for such areas is on the increase. SOmething which is encouraged by the increase of the porn industry due to internet pornography etc. I think it is tragic that women feel the need for such things in a society that makes a woman feel incomplete if she is not physically living up to the standard of impossible beauty. You may insist that it is an issue of adult consent, but really if there is a society which is so messed up that women cannot see that it is not necessary to undergo such things for their self esteem, i would like to suggest there is something fundamentally wrong with the concept of a womans "consent" in this particluar matter, within such a social context.

                  This is another area where your protestaions of what is right and wrong could be much better served. how about campaigning to not fill magazines with rail thin women with huge bosoms? how about we dont, encourage girls in our countries to become anorexic? (I realise that anorexia is a mental state, a need of control that may be missing in other parts of life, but most of the gratification that follows from losing weight is due to the fact that the girl is ACHEIVING control and living up to the expectations of what she perceives to be right in her society.)

                  so let the jews and muslims carry on with circumcising their baby boys at it really is not harming the fabric of life and has not been for CENTURIES upon centuries.

                  As for female genital mutilation, it is wrong and i would like to see it declared haram in the most public way possible. Since men have somewhat ruled the understanding of Islam i think this would be a good opportunity to ask women what they understand of the prophets (PBUH) sayings on the topic. I feel i COMPLETELY understand form what you people have shared of them by what the prophet meant when he was explaining what is and is not acceptable. It seems very logical and even the fact that it is not a requirement is a part of that.FGM is completely out of control and many uneductaed people like to believe it is a requirment of the religion. IT is not.

                  As for female circumcision in islamic societies i REALLY believe it should be up to a panel of female scholars to decide with the input of women from the societies it is practiced in and the MEN in those societies need to get of their arrogant high horses and stop EXPECTING women to have such things done. It is a womans weakness to want to be desired and so the desires of men can effect a womans ability to judge. Decisions like these are made very difficult with men not accepting a woman in her natural state.

                  As for women undergoing surgery for sexual diseases. I am afraid i have never heard such a thing. Although there is a theory that women who are more sexually active with more partners may have a tendency to get cervical cancer but i would like to see some proof. For a lot of recent discoveries in cancer research suggest that forms of cancer (e.g. breast cancer) are in fact hereditary.

                  Please do not try to justify female genital mutilation in ANY way. i truly believe it is haram the way it is practiced in certain countries...

                  Thank you sister mariam for bringing this topic up, it is one that i think is EXTREMELY important and as i am sure many people know i keep going of on to a tangent on to this topic in many other threads because it is one of the things I am very concerned about.

                  I hope you bringing this topic to this thread has taught a few people a few things.
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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by mariam
                    So you are in favor of ...~... ?
                    line 103: They circumcise in accordance with the law on the Sabbath day, but they would kill me because I once on the Sabbath day set free a man held in the bondage of affliction.
                    Circumcision began as a Tribal mark.
                    Then it developed into a Ritual, then Religious practice.
                    Science tells men it is more productive and clean to become circumcised but,
                    Would not the Creator of all things have not known this detail?


                    Last edited by Stanley Stunodd; 28-11-04, 03:16 PM.
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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Kaaju Barfi
                      i dont see sultan supporting that sis mariam. you need to chill out before taking someone's post out of context.
                      Oh, I'm chilling. :)

                      I'd just wish that some members would do more in response to the topic than find a humorous slant or ignore the topic altogether and use the thread as a chance to rally around the pros and cons of what most of us define as a "normal" circumscision.

                      Normal circumscision is not FGM in my book.

                      Taking a stand against FGM seems just a little difficult for some members.

                      I'm not sure why.
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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by mariam
                        I'm not sure why.
                        Maybe because it doesn't physically affect them ?
                        That, coupled with tradition and religious connotations combine to hold a hardened position for the adherence of ancient practices from thousands of years ago, the meaning even being lost as to the reason for it.
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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by mariam
                          So you are in favor of the removal of the tip of the foreskin (circumscision) in males?
                          Of course, for the following reasons:

                          In Islamic law, circumcision is the removal of the skin flap which covers the balanus. By this removal, the body is relieved of a pocket where dirt, germs and fungi accumulate and a focus of impurity and offensive smell. Several medical studies have concluded that the occurrence of inflammation of the male genitals is higher among men who have not been circumcised, and that infection with sexually transmitted diseases such as syphilis, gonorrhoea, and particularly AIDS, is much more common among them. This is in addition to the well-known fact that the incidence of male genital cancer is reduced by circumcision, and the rate of occurrence of cervical cancer among married women is less in the case of the wives of circumcised men. Such advantages explain why many non-Muslims in Europe and America are circumcised.

                          As for me, if I couldn't find a doctor to circumcise me, believe me, I would have done it myself!

                          And the partial removal of the ****oral hood (circumscision) in females?
                          That's for individual women to decide. AFAIK, circumcision in women is not obligatory, but it is regarded, according to one hadith (which may even be weak!), a honor for women who choose to do have it done. So it is a case for women themselves to decide, as far as I am concerned.

                          But what about FGM (Female Genital Mutilation) where the actual ****oris is often removed, the labia removed, and sometimes the vagina sewn shut?

                          Are you in favor of such a procedure being performed on yourself (were you a woman)...under unsterile conditions with no anesthesia administered, or performed on your female family memebers?
                          Now that is something completely different, Mariam. It has nothing to do with Islam, it is a practice that existed and spread through Africa during the times of Pharoah, and has become known as Pharaonic Circumcision (infibulation). It is this practice that needs to be stamped out.

                          Last edited by Sultan; 28-11-04, 03:32 PM.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Sultan
                            Now that is something completely different, Mariam. It has nothing to do with Islam, it is a practice that existed and spread through Africa during the times of Pharoah, and has become known asPharaonic Circumcision (infibulation). It is this practice that needs to be stamped out.
                            Jazakallah khair for making that clear.
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                            • #59
                              it seems there is a great confusion between hoodectomy/****oridectomy and ****oridotomy and between fgm and circumcision as well

                              if someone did fgm to my wife or daughter i would personally slaughter him/her the islamic way and then roast him/her in butter!

                              one thought about female circumcision that came to my mind:

                              it is strange that there are so many "western" people opposing circumcision - as soon as they have made up their mind they turn their back and make a pilgrimage to the next tattoo-shop in order to get pierced in all possible private parts which is preferably done by a person that is not licenced as a medical doctor as well
                              Last edited by abdulhakeem; 28-11-04, 08:08 PM.
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                              • #60
                                i don't know why but it makes me so happy to hear such a passionate response on the topic from a brother.

                                thank you brother.
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