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  • Re: FGM : There is a solution. Can it be made a sticky?

    who said the sunnah is to butcher anything?

    YOU are the only one who fails to acknowledge that the sunnah is not FGM

    Between this thread and the malala thread, you seem to rejoice at bringing kafir perspective to a muslim forum
    .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
    نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
    دولة الإسلامية باقية





    Comment


    • Re: FGM : There is a solution. Can it be made a sticky?

      This post is not related to sunnah, it is related to FGM, why do you bicker on it since day one? I have not mentioned sunnah, i have mentioned FGM? Or do I need your permission for that?


      My Blog http://historyeyesopened.tumblr.com/ Watch out sister Nousername :o
      Ummah forum mentality depiction by BBC (warning) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w

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      • Re: Female genital mutilation-Haram Female circumcision-Halal

        if it is not in the Quran or Sunnah then I dont see why it should be done? If it is done doesnt it become one of the things that if not done or done do not cause sin?

        Comment


        • Re: Female genital mutilation-Haram Female circumcision-Halal

          Originally posted by FijiMuslim View Post
          if it is not in the Quran or Sunnah then I dont see why it should be done? If it is done doesnt it become one of the things that if not done or done do not cause sin?
          Its in a hadith about removing alittle of it the halal way.

          Comment


          • Re: Female genital mutilation-Haram Female circumcision-Halal

            Originally posted by *Aisha View Post
            Its in a hadith about removing alittle of it the halal way.
            this is the whole beard problem all over again!! I hate my beard, i look ridiculous but it is Sunnah it gives great reward and i want the reward (every little bit counts). If it is a practice that the Prophet (pbuh) ok'd then why complain about people wanting to follow Islam?

            Comment


            • Re: Female genital mutilation-Haram Female circumcision-Halal

              Its in a hadith about removing alittle of it the halal way.
              Yep, problem being they don't remove a "little" but everything. How smooth isn't it?


              My Blog http://historyeyesopened.tumblr.com/ Watch out sister Nousername :o
              Ummah forum mentality depiction by BBC (warning) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w

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              • Re: Female genital mutilation-Haram Female circumcision-Halal

                Originally posted by Massilia View Post
                Yep, problem being they don't remove a "little" but everything. How smooth isn't it?
                so your issue should not be to outlaw the practice but to make sure its done properly

                why is that so hard for your feminist mind to comprehend? i guess because it is a feminist mind
                .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
                نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
                دولة الإسلامية باقية





                Comment


                • Re: Female genital mutilation-Haram Female circumcision-Halal

                  Originally posted by Massilia View Post
                  Yep, problem being they don't remove a "little" but everything. How smooth isn't it?
                  The hadith of the Prophet (saw) is quite clear on how much skin to remove (just a little). He warned against removing the entire organ, so that is not the issue at all and shouldn't be mentioned. You can't stop millions of people (who are mostly non muslims or uneducated muslims) from doing FGM by reminding them of the Islamic ruling. You can't even make them go to a doctor and get it safely done, because many don't believe in doctors; so how could you convince them of Islam?

                  What I find silly is the WHO saying that all forms of alteration is FGM. Women here purposely get the area altered (vaginoplasty) to enhance themselves. When a Muslim does it for religion, it's FGM. Fair right?

                  Comment


                  • Re: Female genital mutilation-Haram Female circumcision-Halal

                    Originally posted by AbuMubarak View Post
                    so your issue should not be to outlaw the practice but to make sure its done properly

                    why is that so hard for your feminist mind to comprehend? i guess because it is a feminist mind
                    I didn't know i had a feminist mind, if i had one i would be paying attention to your existence:o which is not the case. Im only talking about FGM practice, im not sure what you are talking about

                    Originally posted by |Sister| View Post
                    The hadith of the Prophet (saw) is quite clear on how much skin to remove (just a little). He warned against removing the entire organ, so that is not the issue at all and shouldn't be mentioned. You can't stop millions of people (who are mostly non muslims or uneducated muslims) from doing FGM by reminding them of the Islamic ruling. You can't even make them go to a doctor and get it safely done, because many don't believe in doctors; so how could you convince them of Islam?

                    What I find silly is the WHO saying that all forms of alteration is FGM. Women here purposely get the area altered (vaginoplasty) to enhance themselves. When a Muslim does it for religion, it's FGM. Fair right?
                    I didn't know Sahelian countries were mostly "non-Muslims" but im sure they will appreciate the gesture. And anyway when you are uneducated, you leave people's clitoris alone.

                    And second I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The post im repeatedly re-posting is about butchery FGM. Im not sure why i keep reading about the hadith and the right way to do it?
                    Obviously my post has nothing to do with the right way to do, it is in relation with FGM. As i highlighted in bold :

                    we all know perfectly well which one is practiced



                    My Blog http://historyeyesopened.tumblr.com/ Watch out sister Nousername :o
                    Ummah forum mentality depiction by BBC (warning) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LS37SNYjg8w

                    Comment


                    • Re: Female genital mutilation-Haram Female circumcision-Halal

                      Originally posted by |Sister| View Post

                      What I find silly is the WHO saying that all forms of alteration is FGM. Women here purposely get the area altered (vaginoplasty) to enhance themselves. When a Muslim does it for religion, it's FGM. Fair right?
                      there is a difference between an adult woman wanting vaginoplasty for cosmetic reasons and a practice performed on young girls usually under strong family/social pressure

                      In any case (since I doubt many posters will have checked the WHO page), here is the relevant classification of FGM http://www.who.int/reproductivehealt.../en/index.html, based on a consensus between WHO, UNICEF, UNFPA (United Nations Population Fund)

                      Classification of female genital mutilation

                      Female genital mutilation has no known health benefits. On the contrary, it is known to be harmful to girls and women in many ways. First and foremost, it is painful and traumatic. The removal of or damage to healthy, normal genital tissue interferes with the natural functioning of the body and causes several immediate and long-term health consequences. For example, babies born to women who have undergone female genital mutilation suffer a higher rate of neonatal death compared with babies born to women who have not undergone the procedure. end in stillbirth or spontaneous abortion, and in a further 25% the newborn has a low birth weight or serious infection, both of which are associated with an increased risk of perinatal death.

                      Communities that practice female genital mutilation report a variety of social and religious reasons for continuing with it. Seen from a human rights perspective, the practice reflects deep-rooted inequality between the sexes, and constitutes an extreme form of discrimination against women. Female genital mutilation is nearly always carried out on minors and is therefore a violation of the rights of the child. The practice also violates the rights to health, security and physical integrity of the person, the right to be free from torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, and the right to life when the procedure results in death.
                      Classification of FGM (2008)

                      Female genital mutilation comprises all procedures involving partial or total removal of the external female genitalia or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons (WHO, UNICEF, UNFPA, 1997).

                      The WHO/UNICEF/UNFPA Joint Statement classified female genital mutilation into four types. Experience with using this classification over the past decade has brought to light some ambiguities. The present classification therefore incorporates modifications to accommodate concerns and shortcomings, while maintaining the four types. In addition, sub-divisions were created, to capture more closely the variety of procedures, when necessary.

                      Although the extent of genital tissue cutting generally increases from Type I to III, there are exceptions. Severity and risk are closely related to the anatomical extent of the cutting, including both the type and amount of tissue that is cut, which may vary between the types. Type IV comprises a large variety of practices that does not remove tissue from the genitals. Though limited research has been carried out on most of these types, they appear to be generally less associated with harm or risk than the types I, II and III, that all consist of removal of genital tissue.

                      Complete typology with sub-divisions:

                      Type I Partial or total removal of the clitoris and/or the prepuce (clitoridectomy).
                      When it is important to distinguish between the major variations of Type I mutilation, the following subdivisions are proposed: Type Ia, removal of the clitoral hood or prepuce only; Type Ib, removal of the clitoris with the prepuce.

                      Type II Partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora, with or without excision of the labia majora (excision).
                      When it is important to distinguish between the major variations that have been documented, the following subdivisions are proposed: Type IIa, removal of the labia minora only; Type IIb, partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora; Type IIc, partial or total removal of the clitoris, the labia minora and the labia majora.
                      Note also that, in French, the term "excision" is often used as a general term covering all types of female genital mutilation.

                      Type III Narrowing of the vaginal orifice with creation of a covering seal by cutting and appositioning the labia minora and/or the labia majora, with or without excision of the clitoris (infibulation).
                      Type IIIa, removal and apposition of the labia minora; Type IIIb, removal and apposition of the labia majora.

                      Type IV All other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for non-medical purposes, for example: pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterization.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Female genital mutilation-Haram Female circumcision-Halal

                        Originally posted by Massilia View Post
                        I didn't know Sahelian countries were mostly "non-Muslims" but im sure they will appreciate the gesture. And anyway when you are uneducated, you leave people's clitoris alone.

                        And second I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The post im repeatedly re-posting is about butchery FGM. Im not sure why i keep reading about the hadith and the right way to do it?
                        Obviously my post has nothing to do with the right way to do, it is in relation with FGM. As i highlighted in bold :

                        we all know perfectly well which one is practiced
                        Sister, you need to be calm and stop the harsh words. There is no need for this. The original two threads were about female circumcision, not FGM, so of course you will get the words of the Prophet(saw) to back up this view. They just were all combined into a single thread. You started ranting about FGM in a circumcision thread when someone posted the sunnah practice by saying "because we all know perfectly well which one is practiced", as if no Muslimas have only the sunnah circumcision.

                        In Malaysia and Indonesia, FGM is almost non-existent. They only perform the hoodectomy (which is done in western countries as a cosmetic procedure to improve pleasure). These are the most populous Muslim nations we are talking about, so don't talk like some huge proportion of Muslim women only get mutilated. FGM is an African tradition that spread to certain parts of west Asia, and it is mostly confined to that area (except for immigrant backwards parents, which are rare). The Prophet(saw) saw a woman about to perform the procedure, so he told her to only take a little because it is more pleasurable for her and her husband.

                        And yes, the most severe forms of FGM cases are among non-muslim animists. It has been prevalent for thousands of years and is considered a normal (yet misguided) part of growing up. You cannot stop them, and telling them "uneducated people have no business.." will only get you laughed at. It's already illegal in many countries, but that means nothing to them. Doctors need to be sent to these places and educate them, and that takes years and a lot of patience.

                        I skipped a few pages, but so far I have not read a single post by a Muslim who rejected that FGM happens in the world. They are rejecting that FGM and circumcision are the same thing. By this logic, male circumcision would be called mutilation as well. Yes, mutilation happens, and it's very, very bad. But, FGM is a pagan practice and yelling at Muslims isn't going to end this practice. Educating them on basic health, female anatomy, and Islam is what will change them. InshaAllah.

                        Originally posted by monti View Post
                        there is a difference between an adult woman wanting vaginoplasty for cosmetic reasons and a practice performed on young girls usually under strong family/social pressure, ect, ect, ect...Female genital mutilation comprises all procedures involving partial or total removal of the external female genitalia or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons (WHO, UNICEF, UNFPA, 1997).
                        I know exactly what FGM is, thank you. As I said in my previous post, circumcision under Islamic practice is not FGM, it is vaginoplasty. Just because it is sometimes done to non-consenting minors does not make it FGM. No mutilation takes place in sunnah circumcision of females or males. Sunnah circumcision is only called FGM because it is done for religious reasons rather than vanity. It should never be associated with the practice of FGM.

                        Comment


                        • Re: FGM : There is a solution. Can it be made a sticky?

                          Originally posted by Massilia View Post
                          Is it possible to leave this post in a place where it is clearly visible and not drown in hundreds of word-games "oh but FGM is haram but circumcision is not", because we all know perfectly well which one is practiced.
                          its not word games, its understanding what is from islam and what is not, and we should never mix the two (which you seem to have no problem doing)
                          .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
                          نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
                          دولة الإسلامية باقية





                          Comment


                          • Re: female circumcision is definitely in islam

                            alhamdulillah
                            .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
                            نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
                            دولة الإسلامية باقية





                            Comment


                            • Re: Female genital mutilation-Haram Female circumcision-Halal

                              Originally posted by monti View Post
                              there is a difference between an adult woman wanting vaginoplasty for cosmetic reasons and a practice performed on young girls usually under strong family/social pressure

                              In any case (since I doubt many posters will have checked the WHO page), here is the relevant classification of FGM http://www.who.int/reproductivehealt.../en/index.html, based on a consensus between WHO, UNICEF, UNFPA (United Nations Population Fund)

                              Classification of female genital mutilation

                              Female genital mutilation has no known health benefits. On the contrary, it is known to be harmful to girls and women in many ways. First and foremost, it is painful and traumatic. The removal of or damage to healthy, normal genital tissue interferes with the natural functioning of the body and causes several immediate and long-term health consequences. For example, babies born to women who have undergone female genital mutilation suffer a higher rate of neonatal death compared with babies born to women who have not undergone the procedure. end in stillbirth or spontaneous abortion, and in a further 25% the newborn has a low birth weight or serious infection, both of which are associated with an increased risk of perinatal death.

                              Communities that practice female genital mutilation report a variety of social and religious reasons for continuing with it. Seen from a human rights perspective, the practice reflects deep-rooted inequality between the sexes, and constitutes an extreme form of discrimination against women. Female genital mutilation is nearly always carried out on minors and is therefore a violation of the rights of the child. The practice also violates the rights to health, security and physical integrity of the person, the right to be free from torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, and the right to life when the procedure results in death.
                              Classification of FGM (2008)

                              Female genital mutilation comprises all procedures involving partial or total removal of the external female genitalia or other injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons (WHO, UNICEF, UNFPA, 1997).

                              The WHO/UNICEF/UNFPA Joint Statement classified female genital mutilation into four types. Experience with using this classification over the past decade has brought to light some ambiguities. The present classification therefore incorporates modifications to accommodate concerns and shortcomings, while maintaining the four types. In addition, sub-divisions were created, to capture more closely the variety of procedures, when necessary.

                              Although the extent of genital tissue cutting generally increases from Type I to III, there are exceptions. Severity and risk are closely related to the anatomical extent of the cutting, including both the type and amount of tissue that is cut, which may vary between the types. Type IV comprises a large variety of practices that does not remove tissue from the genitals. Though limited research has been carried out on most of these types, they appear to be generally less associated with harm or risk than the types I, II and III, that all consist of removal of genital tissue.

                              Complete typology with sub-divisions:

                              Type I Partial or total removal of the clitoris and/or the prepuce (clitoridectomy).
                              When it is important to distinguish between the major variations of Type I mutilation, the following subdivisions are proposed: Type Ia, removal of the clitoral hood or prepuce only; Type Ib, removal of the clitoris with the prepuce.

                              Type II Partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora, with or without excision of the labia majora (excision).
                              When it is important to distinguish between the major variations that have been documented, the following subdivisions are proposed: Type IIa, removal of the labia minora only; Type IIb, partial or total removal of the clitoris and the labia minora; Type IIc, partial or total removal of the clitoris, the labia minora and the labia majora.
                              Note also that, in French, the term "excision" is often used as a general term covering all types of female genital mutilation.

                              Type III Narrowing of the vaginal orifice with creation of a covering seal by cutting and appositioning the labia minora and/or the labia majora, with or without excision of the clitoris (infibulation).
                              Type IIIa, removal and apposition of the labia minora; Type IIIb, removal and apposition of the labia majora.

                              Type IV All other harmful procedures to the female genitalia for non-medical purposes, for example: pricking, piercing, incising, scraping and cauterization.
                              what is described here is haram in islam, this is not circumsicion, female circumsision is known as a hoodectomy. it is not at all the same as "vaginoplasty"
                              "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

                              The Prophet :saw: said:

                              "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

                              muslim

                              Narrated 'Abdullah:

                              The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


                              "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

                              By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

                              [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]

                              Comment


                              • Re: Female genital mutilation-Haram Female circumcision-Halal

                                Originally posted by *asiya* View Post
                                what is described here is haram in islam, this is not circumsicion, female circumsision is known as a hoodectomy. it is not at all the same as "vaginoplasty"
                                read carefully :

                                type Ia of the WHO/UNICEF/UFPA's definition of FGM is

                                "Type Ia, removal of the clitoral hood or prepuce only"

                                "Hoodectomy" is exactly that - removal of the clitoral hood or prepuce only

                                Once again, I simply wanted to clear up definitions of female genital mutilation. People are of course free to follow the WHO/UNICEF/UFPA definition or not.

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