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Female genital mutilation,Haram---Female circumcision,Halal

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  • #16
    Originally posted by mariam
    I'd certainly appreciate a link from a reputable medical site reccomending "female genital mutilation" as a cure for STD's.

    ill find one, soon, i aint done research on the internet on it yet.
    "Closer and closer to mankind comes their Reckoning: yet they heed not and they turn away" (21:1)

    " How can the one who chooses a hour of Haraam pleasure, above the eternal pleasure of Jannah, ever be considered as sane? "
    -Ibn Al Qayyim

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    • #17
      Originally posted by ponderingstar
      "FGM is not female circumcision, it is beyond that and hence it is VERY wrong and disgusting. it is a backward, uneducated practice and we must help people who practice it. ALso Female circumcison is NOT REQUIRED in Islam!!!"
      i thought thats what i was saying, but if you wish, i will concur with your statement
      .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
      نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
      دولة الإسلامية باقية


      • #18
        shaml-uk female genetil mutilation to a greater or lesser degree ( not children as some moron inferred) is carried out in surgical procedures in extream circumstances to treat incurable diseases

        Utter rubbish.

        There is no credable medical reason for removal of the prepuce of the genitals in females other than for cancerous tumours. And these are extremely rare.

        The only justification for doing this to males is for phimosis, and that is very rare.

        The practice of mutilating the gentials of children is widespread amoung Jews and Muslims.

        You can try to sanitise this by calling it circumcision but it remains what it is.

        Perverted unnecessary mutilation of children's genitals.

        iam suggesting that women with vaginal diseases caused by lame sexual practices / promoicuity may need to have female mutilation done to them, i.e. surgury to get rid of disease.

        Yet another reason to embrace Islam. How enlightening!
        Please Re-update your Signature


        • #19

          are you going to tell me that the oneness of god, the authenticity of the quran, the daily prayers, the avoidance of evil and encouraging towards good, the acceptance of all of the prophets from adam to muhammad, the belief in a heaven and a hell do nothing for you

          but shaml saying that he believes fgm is a cure for std's is enough to you to turn away from islam?
          .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
          نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
          دولة الإسلامية باقية


          • #20
            AbuMubarak but shaml saying that he believes fgm is a cure for std's is enough to you to turn away from islam?

            That is not the point I made at all.

            shaml uk suggested: Indiginous Women in the west will require some female mutilation

            This suggestion is disgusting, disgraceful and innacurate.

            It is disgusting in its presumption.

            It is disgraceful in its assertion that western women necessarily have lame sexual practices.

            It is inaccurate in suggesting that it is medically indicated for the treatment of STDs.

            You clearly have a general ambition to encourage people to embrace Islam. Then you suggest, among many other outragious proposals, that western women will have their genitals mutilated.
            Please Re-update your Signature


            • #21
              islam is not about genitalia
              islam is about the worship of the one true god, in the manner he decreed for us

              lets not get sidetracked

              i know no women who have had fgm, (not that i am supposed to know) but there are quite a few women in my family, so its not an islamic thing, though it was discussed

              the prophet neither encouraged nor forbade vaginal circumscision, as a matter of fact, he said it would be more pleasurable for the woman

              i am not commenting on that one, i wouldnt have the foggiest idea, but i accept the words of my prophet

              i was specifically addressing the issue you were making by using fgm as some sort of determining factor regarding the validity of islam
              .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
              نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
              دولة الإسلامية باقية


              • #22
                To Mutilate in the Name of Jehovah or Allah

                Legitimization of Male and Female Circumcision


                Sami A. ALDEEB ABU-SAHLIEHNew enlarged edition, July 1994By the authorRue du Centre 741025 St-Sulpice/SuisseTable of ContentsCHAPTER IV. LEGAL PROHIBITION OF FEMALE CIRCUMCISION


                Article 24, paragraph 3 of the Convention on the Rights of the Child, of 20 Nov. 1989, stipulates:

                States Parties shall take all effective and appropriate measures with a view to abolishing traditional practices prejudicial to the health of children 1.

                In 1984, the President of the Inter-African Committee stated:

                An erroneous idea of Religion has played a key role in maintaining the practice of excision and other practices which tend to relegate the woman to a lower status in relation to the man 2.

                In April 1987, the Vice-President of the Inter-African Committee reiterated:

                I request more aggressive tactics to put an end to the practice of infibulation. I call for more active support especially from the religious leaders of Islam after it has been confirmed many times that this practice is contrary to the precept of Islam 3.

                In this Committee's opinion, religion and Muslim religious leaders play an important role in the matter of female circumcision. The goal of this study is to define this role in male circumcision as well as in female circumcision. We shall on purpose avoid any use of the word Islam, as too abstract a notion, and we shall concentrate on the written sources of Muslim law and the opinions of contemporary Arab authors, mostly of Egyptian origin.

                Last edited by abdulhakeem; 27-11-04, 08:05 PM.
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                • #23

                  Ibn Qudamah (may Allah have mercy on him) said, in his book al-Mughni: "Circumcision is obligatory for men, and it is an honour for women, but it is not obligatory for them.This is the opinion of many scholars. (Imam) Ahmad said: For men it is more strictly required, but for women it is less strictly requiredCircumcision is a Sunnah for men, and an honour for women

                  The Simple issue is people want to attack Islam so they will find any reason to do so, they find a very small number of corrupt people who circumcise too far and start saying see see this is what Islam does, then the so called extremists amongst the muslims (extreme in their love for the west) start saying no no there is no circumcision full stop in Islam. Go speak to the somali brothers and sisters and you will find out what they have to say about it, mashallah somalis are some of the best muslims out there and you have these extremists trying to slander them after all their piety.... all I have to say is....

                  13.And when it is said to them (hypocrites): "Believe as the people (followers of Muhammad Peace be upon him , and have believed," they say: "Shall we believe as the fools have believed?" Verily, they are the fools, but they know not.14. And when they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe," but when they are alone with their (devils - polytheists, hypocrites, etc.), they say: "Truly, we are with you; verily, we were but mocking."15.16.These are they who have purchased error for guidance, so their commerce was profitless. And they were not guided.17.18. They are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they return not (to the Right Path).

                  There is no nobility in anyone who lacks faith.

                  The wise man knows that the only fitting price for his soul is a place in Paradise.


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by abdulhakeem
                    To Mutilate in the Name of Jehovah or Allah

                    Legitimization of Male and Female Circumcision


                    I. TERMINOLOGY

                    The English language uses different terms to designate sexual mutilations. Generally, one speaks of circumcision for boys, and of circumcision, excision or infibulation (depending of the case) for girls. In this study, we shall use the terms male circumcision and female circumcision 4.

                    The legal Arabic jargon uses the word khitan for male circumcision and the term khafd or khifad for female circumcision. But the everyday language uses the term khitan for both mutilations. There is also taharah, meaning purification, these mutilations being said to be purificatory to their victims 5.


                    Female circumcision has triggered a passionate public debate in the West. Many national, non governmental, and international organizations are showing their concern 6. This debate has found somewhat of an echo in the Arab world. The feminist circles demand its abolition, while at the same time, the Muslim religious circles try as often as they can to justify female circumcision, only in the form called sunnah, which is said to be the one conforming to the tradition of Mohammed 7. But the Arabic juridical literature shows very little interest for this issue 8. The Arabic medical profession does not seem to be much interested either: constituted of a majority of men, its responsibility is to perpetuate social and moral values which are predominant in its society, thus blindfolding its members 9.

                    Contrary to female circumcision, male circumcision does not really interest anyone10. The debate on the topic is still taboo. This attitude can be observed in the previously mentioned article 24, paragraph 3 of the Convention on the Rights of the Child. In spite of a general wording, the preparatory studies prove that its authors had only female circumcision in mind and not male circumcision at all 11.

                    The distinction made between male circumcision and female circumcision might be justified for medical and cultural reasons. According to Wedad Zenie-Ziegler, an Egyptian woman:

                    There is no similarity between male circumcision, a prophylactic measure recommended for boys in almost every society and female circumcision, the goal of which is to diminish, if not suppress sexual desire in women 12. During the UN Seminar in Ouagadougou (Burkina Faso), the majority of participants agreed that the justifications of female circumcision based on cosmogony and those based on religion "must be assimilated to superstition and denounced as such" since "neither the Bible, nor the Koran recommend that women be excised". They recommend ensuring that, in the minds of people, male circumcision and female circumcision be dissociated, the former as a procedure for hygienic purposes, the latter, excision, as a serious form of assault on the women's physical integrity 13. This reasoning is groundless and extremely dangerous. If female circumcision was in the Bible or the Koran, would it be allowed no matter what? And if one decided to put into practice everything that is said in the Bible and the Koran, starting with the law of retaliation?!

                    Another opinion came from Ghita El-Khayat-Bennai, a Moroccan woman:

                    Women are not alone in being subjected to sexual mutilations. Every Jew all over the world for example is circumcised on the 7th day without much concern on the part of his parents. They keep circumcising their male offspring, even knowing this to be an extremely traumatic event, preferring to subject the little boy to pain rather than face their own fear and cultural taboos as adults 14. Genevieve Giudicelli-Delage writes:

                    No doubt the consequences are of lesser importance in male circumcision than they are in female excision (although some practices of minimal excision could be seen as identical to male circumcision). But nevertheless, to take a position in view of consequences alone would be a mistake. Custom justifies the most serious actions, even death: the essential here is not action, but culture. If a family from Mali may in France have a son circumcised, but may not have a daughter excised, it is because male circumcision belongs to a cultural order which is more or less ours, male circumcision belongs to this Judeo-Christian ideology which is the melting pot of our culture and this ideology does not know excision and never did15.

                    For Doctor Gerard Zwang, the reason for making a distinction between the two types of circumcision is simple: most sexologists and most men in charge of information about it are circumcised [Jews]. They oppose any debate on the subject of male circumcision16.

                    Juridical logic cannot acknowledge the distinction between male and female circumcision, both being the mutilation of healthy organs and consequently damaging the physical integrity of the child, whatever the religious motivations lying underneath17.


                    Male circumcision is practiced by all Muslims and Jews and also by some Christians, as is the case for Christians in Egypt. It is also practiced by animist tribes in Africa.

                    As for female circumcision, it is neither practiced by all Muslims, nor by all Arabs. In fact, many if not most of the Maghreb countries as well as Turkey and Iran ignore this custom 18. On the other hand, one can find it among the Egyptian Christians19 and the Ethiopian Jews (Falachas) 20 who in all probability keep practicing it in Israel today, as do Africans living in France. Sudan (98%), Somalia (98%) and Egypt (75%) are among the largest Arabic countries practicing it. In Egypt, 97.5% of uneducated families impose circumcision upon their daughters compared to 66.2% of educated families 21. Other Arabic countries practice it too: Yemen, the United Emirates, Bahrain, Qatar, Oman, some areas of Saudi Arabia, Mauritania. It appears to be done also in some Muslim countries of Asia such as Indonesia, Malaysia, Pakistan and India under the name of sunnah circumcision, here with a reference to religion. But precise data on the subject are not available. In Africa, 28 countries appear to practice it, among them many animist tribes. It seems to affect about 75 million women 22.

                    Often, male or female circumcision is performed without anaesthesia in a barbaric manner, by persons without any medical training, such as barbers or midwives, using rudimentary instruments causing complications sometimes leading to death. We have many tragic testimonies on female circumcision but none on male circumcision as obviously nobody is interested. Still today, I can recall my youth and hear the screams coming from my young Muslim neighbours while they were being circumcised. Let us quote here the briefest and least shocking of the women's testimony, that of Samia, a Muslim girl born in a small Egyptian village close to the Sudanese border, who now lives in Cairo:

                    I was seven years old when I was excised. I recall the stories from women of my village who spoke of this operation as if their whole life had stopped there and then. The atrocity of their descriptions and at the same time a feeling of inescapable doom had triggered such a panic in me that when the terror-laden day came, I began to vomit. What happened then is still excruciatingly burning my flesh, so much so that I often wake up in the middle of the night screaming and calling for my mother 23. Generally the victim is mutilated without anaesthesia, lying on her back, legs kept wide apart by helpers or by one only lying under the young girl, her ankles being hooked in the helper's feet. To immobilize a 7 years old, you sometimes need the help of 5 persons to restrain her head, arms and legs. When the girl is a toddler, one assistant alone can manage body and thighs at the same time, while holding her in a sitting position.

                    There are many different kinds of male circumcisions: The circumcision per se consisting of total or partial excision of the foreskin; phallectomy; castration; emasculation. Only the first kind is of interest to us due to its frequency and its ritual characteristics. The other three seem to be less common and we do not have enough information on them 24.

                    There are as well many different kinds of female circumcision:

                    - The female circumcision called sunnah or according to the tradition of Mohammed. The religious circles in favour of this type of female circumcision do not always give details on what is done. According to a classical author, Al-Mawardi, "it is limited to cutting off the skin in the shape of a kernel located above the genitalia. One must cut the protruding epidermis without performing a complete ablation" 25. For Doctor Hamid Al-Ghawabi, it is the ablation of the ****oris as well as labia minora 26. According to Doctor Mahran, the hood of the ****oris is excised as well as the most important parts of the labia minora 27.

                    - ****oridectomy or excision. It consists of the ablation of the ****oris as well as labia minora. It is the operation of choice in Egypt.

                    - Infibulation or pharaonic circumcision. It is practiced in Sudan and Somalia and involves the complete ablation of ****oris, labia minora and part of labia majora. The two sides of the vulva are then sewn together with silk or catgut stitches (Sudan) or with thorns (Somalia) in order to close the vulva, except a very small opening for the passage of urine and menstrual flow 28. On the wedding night, the groom will have to open his bride, more often than not with a double edged dagger. In some tribes, the woman is sewn back each time her husband goes travelling and is opened again each time he comes back. In case of divorce, the woman is sewn up to forbid her any possibility of intercourse 29.
                    Let us mention that in the West, female circumcision and especially infibulation were performed in the past. One of those chastity belts was made by passing rings in the labia and vulva, wiring them shut or closing them with a lock, the key of which was kept by the husband especially when going away 30. In Russia, the Skopotzy (circumcisers) who are Christians, have practiced infibulation to insure perpetual virginity: they call upon Matthew 19:12: "... and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake" 31. A particular type of female circumcision practiced by the Kikuyu tribes in Kenya is said to be performed today in some of the hospitals in Paris to accentuate the pleasure potential in some women of the upper class of society. The ****oris is disengaged and pulled back inside the vagina. Such a practice is said to add to women's sexual pleasure 32.

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                    • #25
                      COMBATING MALE CIRCUMCISION BY IDENTIFYING THE RESPONSIBLE PARTIESDuring the symposium, the participants tried to see how one could put an end to male circumcision. In order to do this, it is necessary to consider the roles of those responsible for the practice of circumcision.

                      1. The doctors

                      Doctors form an imposing body that is very difficult to confront. The participants of the symposium expressed little confidence in them. One participant indicated that it was pointless to try to convince doctors, for like all lobbies, they are against society. Doctors profit by the operation of circumcision and one can hardly expect them to willingly reduce their income. Circumcision and the commerce of the foreskin constitutes a lucrative industry in the United States, amounting to several hundred million dollars a year. Despite this, some doctors have been converted and have become opponents of circumcision, especially those at the end of their careers who have less to loose. Some came to bring their testimony and to argue against circumcision. One of these gave to NOCIRC the Circumstraint tray 195 on which he used to perform circumcisions and delivered an address entitled, "Leave it alone!".

                      2. The nurses

                      Nurses also participate in circumcision. These nurses can be easily mobilized against circumcision by reason of the atrocious suffering they have witnessed during the circumcision of babies. Circumcision is performed without anaesthesia. We viewed a film of the operation and heard repeatedly the screams of the infant being operated upon. It was truly unbearable. It is not an accident that circumcision is always performed behind closed doors, the parents not being permitted to watch. The baby is strapped by its hands and feet and immobilized on a molded plastic tray which conforms to its body. The foreskin is pulled to its maximum length and crushed by a metal clamp before it is sliced off with a scalpel. We saw one of these plastic trays: a veritable instrument of torture.

                      Nurses, however, fear that they will be relieved of their duties and dismissed if as conscientious objectors they refuse to participate in the operation. The founder of NOCIRC, for example, was a nurse. She lost her job because of her opposition to circumcision. Actually, it would seem that opposition is now becoming easier to assert. A dozen nurses from St. Vincent Hospital in Santa Fe, New Mexico (of which several were Jewish) 196, were present at the symposium and gave us their reasons for taking their decision. These reasons are:
                      • Neonatal circumcision is a violation of a new-born male's right to a whole (intact) body.
                      • There are no compelling medical reasons for amputation of the penile foreskin. Amputating the foreskin deprives the infant of a protective and sexually functional part of his body.
                      • Circumcision is a surgical procedure with risks of complications, including bleeding, infection and mutilation.
                      • Neonatal circumcision is painful. Often, inadequate or no anaesthesia is used. Post-operative pain management is rare.
                      • Parental information on this subject is all too often incomplete or based on myths.
                      • The infant is unable at this vulnerable age to state his own wishes or to protect himself.
                      .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
                      نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
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                      • #26
                        these guys are nuts

                        they dont want to differfentiate between fgm and vc, and now for the boys, they want to forbid that also
                        .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
                        نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
                        دولة الإسلامية باقية


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by abdulhakeem
                          To Mutilate in the Name of Jehovah or Allah
                          Originally posted by abdulhakeem

                          Legitimization of Male and Female Circumcision


                          CHAPTER II. RELIGIOUS ARGUMENTS


                          1. The sources of Muslim law

                          Muslim law has two main sources: the Koran and the Sunnah (tradition: words and actions) of Mohammed, to which one must add the igtihad, tenets of the schools of Muslim law through the centuries.

                          Nowadays a specific part of igtihad is getting more and more important: namely the fatwas (opinions of Muslim religious scholars), which are often worded in a language accessible to the masses, defining which behaviour conforms to the Divine Will 33. Though juridically non binding, the fatwas are nonetheless morally obligatory for the believer and at times the first step toward the promulgation or the modification of laws. They are given in writing or orally and are often published and sold on a wide scale34. Many pertain to male and female circumcision.

                          We confine our study here to the works and anthologies of modern fatwas, mostly Egyptian ones, referring to classical books of Muslim law. This choice is justified by the fact that the public at large seldom has access to the classical books.

                          2. The Koran

                          The Koran mentions neither male nor female circumcision. An extensive interpretation of verse 2:124 shows some barely traceable indication of it:

                          When Abraham was put to the test by his Lord, through certain commandments, he carried them out. God then said: "I am appointing you a guide for the people".

                          One of the commands given to Abraham, as a test, was circumcision, as mentioned in some of the sayings of Mohammed. Abraham is a model for the Muslim faithful by virtue of verse 16:123:

                          Then we inspired you (Mohammed) to follow the religion (millat) of Abraham, a true believer...35.

                          It is relevant to note the rule of the Muslim law according to which norms that were revealed to the prophets prior to Mohammed are valid until unmistakably nullified. Thus the Bible, by a process of referral, becomes a source of law for the Muslims. One can read:

                          God told Abraham: "...Here is our alliance which shall be observed between me and you, i.e. thy race after thee, may all your males be circumcised. You shall have the flesh of your foreskin cut off and it shall be a sign of alliance between me and you...When they reach their 8th day all your males shall be circumcised from generation to generation... My alliance shall be branded in your flesh as a perpetual alliance. The uncircumcised, the male whose foreskin has not been cut off, this very life shall be cut off. He violated my alliance" 36.

                          Circumcision as a sign of alliance can only be found in two other passages of the Bible 37. Elsewhere, it is more narrative: King Saul demanded one hundred Philistine foreskins from David, before he gave his consent to David marrying his daughter Mikal: "David... thought it was a good deal in order to become the king's son in law... He went to war...He killed 200 Philistine men, brought back their foreskins, counted them in front of the king....So Saul... had to admit that Jehovah was on David's side" 38.

                          This interpretation of the Koranic verses with reference to the Bible is considered abusive by Imam Mahmud Shaltut (israf fil-istidlal) 39. What is more, this textual argument based on Jewish law concerns male circumcision only, not female circumcision that the Bible does not mention and that the Jews do not practice (Falachas excepted). Al-Sukkari answers that, according to Ibn Hagar, the Jews used to circumcise both sexes, which is why he rejects male and female circumcision on the 7th day, so as not to look like them. Even the authentic Bible - today's one is considered falsified - does not contain any text related to female circumcision. Nonetheless, the Muslims must practice it, if the Muslim law makes provision for it 40.

                          3. The Sunnah

                          We will try here to glean, from the works of contemporary Arab authors, the different sayings of Mohammed related to male and female circumcision.

                          - The most often mentioned narration reports a debate between Mohammed and Um Habibah (or Um 'Atiyyah). This woman, known as an exciser of female slaves, was one of a group of women who had immigrated with Mohammed. Having seen her, Mohammed asked her if she kept practicing her profession. She answered affirmatively adding: "unless it is forbidden and you order me to stop doing it". Mohammed replied: "Yes, it is allowed. Come closer so I can teach you: if you cut, do not overdo it (la tanhaki), because it brings more radiance to the face (ashraq) and it is more pleasant (ahza) for the husband". According to others, he said: "Cut slightly and do not overdo it (ashimmi wa-la tanhaki), because it is more pleasant (ahza) for the woman and better (ahab, from other sources abha) for the husband". We shall hereinafter refer to this narration as the exciser's narration.

                          - Mohammed said: "Circumcision is a sunnah for the men and makrumah for the women". The term sunnah here means that it is conform to the tradition of Mohammed himself, or simply a custom at the time of Mohammed. The term makrumah is far from clear but we can translate it into a honorable deed.

                          - Speaking to the Ansars' wives, Mohammed said: "Cut slightly without exaggeration (ikhtafidna wa-la tanhikna), because it is more pleasant (ahza) for your husbands".

                          - Someone came to Mohammed and became a convert before him. Mohammed told him: "Shave off your unbeliever's hair and be circumcised".

                          - Mohammed said: "Let him who becomes a Muslim be circumcised, even if he is old".

                          - One asked Mohammed if an uncircumcised man could go to pilgrimage. He answered: "Not as long as he is not circumcised".

                          - Mohammed said: "Five norms define fitrah: shaving of the pubis, circumcision, moustache trimming, armpit depilation and nail clipping". Other narrations name ten norms amongst which circumcision is always mentioned. The norms of fitrah are believed to be those taught by God to His creation. The man in pursuit of perfection must conform to those norms. They are not compulsory, but simply advisable (mandubah), except for circumcision which is mandatory. Based on these premises, Al-Sukkari believes Adam to have been the first circumcised man. His descendants having neglected their obligation, it was reconfirmed to Abraham and his descendants. Thus circumcision would be the sign which would differentiate the believer from the non-believer. Therefore, circumcision is the sign of Islam 41.

                          - Mohammed has stipulated: "If both circumcised parts (khitanan) meet or if they touch each other, it is necessary to wash before prayer". From this, it may be deduced that men and women were circumcised in Mohammed's time.

                          The Shiites add a narration by Imam Al-Sadiq stating: "Female circumcision is a makrumah, and is there anything better than a makrumah?" They cite Al-Sadiq as the reporter of the exciser's narration 42.

                          The supporters of circumcision themselves (male or female) acknowledge that those narrations attributed to Mohammed offer little credibility 43. Mahmud Shaltut states that they are neither clear nor authentic44. Sheikh Abbas, Rector of the Muslim Institute at the Mosque of Paris, is even more adamant:

                          If circumcision for the man (though not compulsory) has an aesthetic and hygienic purpose, there is no existing religious Islamic text of value to be considered in favour of female excision, as proven by the fact that this practice is totally non-existent in most of the Islamic countries. And if unfortunately some people keep practicing excision, to the great prejudice of women, it is probably due to customs practised prior to the conversion of these people to Islam 45. 4. Custom and silence of the law

                          Female circumcision having fragile foundations in the Koran and the Sunnah, Al-Sukkari tries to strengthen those foundations in calling upon custom, which constitutes a source of Muslim law. For him, female circumcision has become the norm in as much as it is general, it has been practiced for a long time and it is not contrary to any text of religious law.

                          He refers to the rule according to which what is not forbidden is allowed. Thus female circumcision, not being expressly forbidden, remains permitted46. Even if narrations related to female circumcision are not credible, none has shown up to forbid it or declare it blameworthy. One of the principles of Muslim law is that it is better to apply the norm that to give it up 47.

                          However, this author forgets that the Muslim law allows a custom based on ignorance to be abolished. In effect, the Koran states:

                          When they are told: "Come to what God has revealed and to the Messenger". they say: "Sufficient for us is what we found our parents doing". What if their parents lacked the knowledge? And the guidance? (5:104).

                          Indeed, he reverses the rule. Instead of supporting physical integrity, indirectly he speaks in favour of the principle of mutilation.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by abdulhakeem
                            To Mutilate in the Name of Jehovah or Allah
                            Originally posted by abdulhakeem

                            Legitimization of Male and Female Circumcision



                            1. God does not mutilate

                            This argument can be summed up as follows: Can we imagine a God who demands that his believers be mutilated and branded on their genitals the same as cattle? Doctor Nawal El-Saadawi, an Egyptian woman, herself excised, writes:

                            If religion comes from God, how can it order man to cut off an organ created by Him as long as that organ is not deceased or deformed? God does not create the organs of the body haphazardly without a plan. It is not possible that He should have created the ****oris in a woman's body only in order that it be cut off at an early stage in life. This is a contradiction into which neither true religion nor the Creator could possibly fall. If God has created the ****oris as a sexually sensitive organ, whose sole function seems to be the procurement of sexual pleasure for women, it follows that He also considers such pleasure for women as normal and legitimate, and therefore as an integral part of mental health 48.

                            It has very often been proclaimed that Islam is at the root of female circumcision, and is also responsible for the under-privileged and backward situation of women in Egypt and the Arab countries. Such a contention is not true... Religion, if authentic in the principles it stands for, aims at truth, equality, justice, love and a healthy wholesome life for all people, whether men or women. There can be no true religion that aims at disease, mutilation of the bodies of female children, and amputation of an essential part of their reproductive organs 49.

                            Rene Saurel goes over the argument again. She writes:

                            The Koran, contrary to Christianism and Judaism, permits and recommends that the woman be given physical and psychological pleasure, pleasure found by both partners during the act of love. Forcibly split, torn, and severed tissues are neither conducive to sensuality nor to the blessed feeling given and shared when participating in the quest for pleasure and the escape from pain. This verse appears to condemn any change of God's creation. It is referred to by Islamists to oppose permanent birth control, be it by measures affecting the man or the woman 51. Oddly, male and female circumcision enthusiasts forget this verse completely. They also forget the following one: "He perfected everything He created" (32:7). Aziza Kamel, adversary of female circumcision, refers to this verse and adds: "Excision is a distortion of what God created because God is satisfied with His creation" 52.

                            3. Man knows best

                            Mohammed had told some farmers not to pollinate their date trees. That very year, the trees did not bear any dates. Having returned to Mohammed for explanations, they were told: "You know your worldly business better [than I do]".

                            The last passage of the narration was quoted by Sheikh Hassan Ahmed Abu-Sabib from Sudan in his presentation to the Seminar on Traditional Practices having consequences on the Health of Women and Children (affecting Women's and Children's Health) in Africa (Dakar, Feb. 6-10, 1984). Strengthened by this narration, he comes to the conclusion that female circumcision must be banned because medical science has proved it to be harmful. Then, he says, the Koran forbids man to harm himself by virtue of verse 2:195: "Do not throw yourselves with your own hands into disaster". Elsewhere, Mohammed said: "Who harms a believer, harms me and who harms me, harms God".

                            This Sudanese Sheikh did not pursue his reasoning to its end. In the narration about the date trees, Mohammed did not want to consider himself as infallible in botany and so admitted that the farmers knew more than he did on the subject in spite of his quality as a prophet. By analogy with female and male circumcision, this narration means that Mohammed indeed could not be infallible on the subject and could be contradicted by medical science. Our Sheikh does not go so far. He separates Mohammed's answer from the whole narration about the date trees and just states that Mohammed's narrations on female circumcision are not reliable, calling on the authority of his counterpart, Imam Shaltut. He concludes that the issue of male and female circumcision must be judged according to its disadvantages and advantages 53.

                            In spite of this minor inconsistency, his advice against female circumcision is the most explicit known to us on the part of a contemporary religious Muslim leader.

                            4. The Al-Mahdawi case

                            All of the aforementioned religious arguments are written solely and exclusively against female circumcision. Though they could very well be used against male circumcision, their authors never do so and not without purpose.

                            Indeed, the only Muslim author to have cast doubts on male circumcision has had legal action brought against him and might be sentenced to death for apostasy. I am speaking of (retired) Judge Mustafa Kamal Al-Mahdawi, a personal friend of mine, who is today under a ferocious attack lead by Libyan religious circles in the mosques as well in the press. The preacher of the Mosque of the Prophet, in Medina, Saudi Arabia, published in July 1992 a pamphlet handed out free of charge in Libya. In this pamphlet, he asks the Muslim Arab League and the Islamic Conference to set up a collective fatwa of all Muslim scholars against this judge and to execute him as an apostate if he does not retract. As for his book, the preacher asks that it be removed from the shelves, burned and forbidden to any reader. He blames the judge for having, among other things, denied that male circumcision is compulsory when there is unanimity in favour of it and when Mohammed was Himself circumcised 54.

                            In fact, this Libyan judge insists that male circumcision is a Jewish custom; the Jews believe that God would only see them if they had distinctive marks such as circumcision or blood stained doors. He refers here to God's command given to the Jews that the blood from sacrificed cattle be put on jambs and lintel of houses at the time of Passover because He intended to kill all firstborn in Egypt. God said to Moses and Aaron: "The blood shall be a sign on the houses where you live. Seeing this sign, I shall pass over those doorways and you shall escape the destructive calamity when I strike down the people of Egypt" 55. The Libyan judge adds that the Koran does not mention this "peculiar logic". For him, God does not devote Himself to such banter no more than He created the foreskin as a superfluous object destined only to be cut off56. He quotes verse 3:191 which states:
                            Our Lord, You did not create all this in vain! Glory be to You! So spare us the agony of hell 57.

                            Last edited by abdulhakeem; 27-11-04, 08:27 PM.
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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by abdulhakeem
                              To Mutilate in the Name of Jehovah or Allah
                              Originally posted by abdulhakeem

                              Legitimization of Male and Female Circumcision



                              To define an act means to declare it forbidden, reprehensible, permitted, advisable or mandatory. Those are the five categories into which a Muslim believer classifies any act.

                              The adversaries of circumcision regard it as forbidden when it concerns girls. On the other hand, they do not oppose male circumcision and even consider it mandatory.

                              As for the supporters of male and female circumcision, they are divided on the qualification that should be attached to it. Three opinions have been expressed:

                              1. Mandatory for boys and girls

                              Imam Ahmad deems only the prayer and pilgrimage of the circumcised to be worthy of acceptance. Imam Malik refuses access to public office to, and testimony from, a non-circumcised person. Others go as far as forbidding that meat killed by a non-circumcised person be eaten58. This school puts forward the following justifications:

                              - Verse 16:120 requests that Mohammed follow the path of Abraham. Abraham was circumcised at a very old age, when he was 80 years old, according to others 120, in spite of the suffering that circumcision could cause him. Had it not been mandatory in Abraham's opinion, he would not have subjected himself to it.

                              - Different sayings of Mohammed related to circumcision and mentioned earlier.

                              - During the era of the Companions of Mohammed, male and female circumcision was carried out.

                              - The condition of being non circumcised keeps impurity in the body and renders prayer null and void, the same way as an unclean mouth does.

                              - Circumcision (male and female) causes pain. Pain is permissible only for benefit, punishment and obligation. Since benefit and punishment are inapplicable, circumcision (male and female) is an obligation 59.

                              2. Sunnah for both sexes

                              According to this school of thought, male and female circumcision falls under sunnah, the meaning of which jurists disagree upon. It can have two meanings: the tradition of Mohammed himself, or simply a custom at the time of Mohammed60. Considered as sunnah, it would be advisable and not mandatory 61.

                              Those in favour of this qualification call upon the narration which compares circumcision (male and female) to a norm of the above mentioned fitrah. As such, it has man's perfection as a purpose. Though it is desirable, the Muslim believer is under no obligation to have it done. They add that many persons joined Islam without Mohammed ever searching [under their clothes] to see if they were circumcised or not 62.

                              3. Compulsory for the boys, sunnah or makrumah for the girls

                              The modern authors opt for this opinion. Al-Sukkari states that male circumcision is mandatory because of the smell and the repugnant, greasy substances secreted and kept under the foreskin. This uncleanness renders prayer invalid. But as purity is necessary for prayer, circumcision becomes compulsory according to the legal rule which states: what is necessary to fulfil an obligation becomes in turn mandatory.

                              On the other hand, the female having no foreskin and therefore no source of impurity "down there", female circumcision is only advisable. Two reasons underlie the recommendation of female circumcision:

                              - to fulfil makrumah granted by Mohammed.

                              - to avoid falling into a taboo 63.

                              For Professor 'Abd-al-Wahhab Khallaf, the term makrumah means that female circumcision adds to the man's pleasure 64. Shaltut states that female circumcision is a makrumah for the men who are not used to feeling this protruding piece (za'idah) piece of flesh 65.

                              The majority leans toward the meaning of a commendable or meritorious act on the part of the woman. It is Professor Zakariyya Al-Birri's opinion that it is better to carry out female circumcision. Anyone who does not do it does not sin if he is convinced in the light of religious texts and doctor's advice that he is under no obligation to conform (to it) 66. Al-Qaradawi leaves the choice to parents according to their beliefs, in spite of the fact that he favours female circumcision, because it protects girls' morality "especially nowadays" 67.

                              A fatwa from the Egyptian Fatwa Committee dated May 28, 1949, has declared that abandoning female circumcision does not constitute a sin68. Another fatwa from the same body dated June 23, 1951, is more rigid. Not only does this fatwa not recognise the abandonment of female circumcision as an option, but is further of the opinion that it is advisable to carry it out because it curbs "nature". Moreover, this fatwa considers doctors' opinions on the disadvantages of female circumcision irrelevant (see Chapter III, Paragraph 3, point 2) 69. A third much more detailed fatwa from the same institution dated January 29, 1981, is adamantly opposed to giving up female circumcision. The author of this fatwa is the present Great Sheikh of Al-Azhar, the most famous University of the Islamic World in Cairo. He insists that it is impossible to abandon the lessons of Mohammed in favour of the teaching of others, be they doctors, because medical science evolves and does not remain constant. The responsibility of female circumcision lies with the parents and with those in charge of the girl's welfare. Those who do not abide by it do not do their duty 70.

                              4. Motives for the difference between boy and girl71. This is instead a command from Mohammed according to the above mentioned exciser's narration.

                              - Male circumcision is a sign which separates Muslim men from the non-Muslim ones. As for the woman, one should adopt a respectful attitude toward her and not impose a physical examination to see if she is circumcised or not.

                              - Male circumcision helps prevent many diseases, cancer among them, and reduces having to resort to masturbation. This opinion is also put forward by Imam Mahmud Shaltut for whom the boy's foreskin hides germs harmful to his health, which is not the case for the girls 72.

                              5. Consequences of the qualification

                              Jurists have asked themselves if public authority can force a Muslim to submit to circumcision, especially if he is getting on years. The Zaydites and the Shafiites answer affirmatively. According to the Hanafite School, if a group rejects male circumcision, the Head of State must declare war (against this group). However, some say that a man may be spared circumcision if it endangers his health. Al-Sukkari, a modern author, is of the opinion that health nowadays is not a problem. The Muslim man who fears for his health can ask a doctor to carry out the operation under anaesthesia and with the help of modern equipment.

                              The Hanbalites say that male and female circumcision is an Islamic ritual; the man can force his wife to be excised as well as to force her to pray. The Ibadites consider as invalid the marriage of a non-circumcised Muslim even if it was consummated. The woman may ask for legal separation. If the husband gets circumcised after its consummation, the marriage remains invalid; he must go through another ceremony in order to get his wife back. For the Hanbalites, the non-circumcision of the husband is a breach of contract giving the woman the choice of asking for divorce or continuing the marriage. For some, the non-circumcised man has no right of guardianship of a Muslim and no right to give his consent to the marriage of a Muslim relative. In this case, the marriage is dissolved, except if it was consummated.

                              Al-Sukkari, a modern author, grants the woman the right to dissolve the marriage if the husband is not circumcised, because his foreskin can be a vector of diseases. It can also be a source of repulsion, thus preventing the realization of the objectives of marriage, id est love and understanding between partners. The woman has a right to be married to someone handsome and clean, Islam being the religion of cleanness and purity 73. Ahmad Amin emphasizes the importance of circumcision in the Egyptian's mind by telling this anecdote: a Sudanese tribe wanted to join Islam. The chief wrote to a scholar of the Al-Azhar to ask him what was to be done. The scholar sent him a list of demands, putting circumcision in first place. The tribe then refused to become Muslim 7475. According to the Saudi religious authorities, a man who converts to Islam must get circumcised, but in case he refuses to join Islam for fear of the procedure, this demand may be postponed until the faith is stronger in his heart 76.

                              On a social level, the non-circumcision of a female has serious consequences. In some countries, the non-circumcised girls do not get married and people then start talking about them, as if they were guilty of misbehaviour, possessed by the devil. In the Egyptian countryside, the matron practicing female circumcision delivers a certificate which is used for the marriage 77. Wedad Zenie-Ziegler writes that the Egyptian country women are surprised to learn that their sisters in Cairo are not excised. They burst into laughter, interrupted by scandalized comments: "Really it is not done? Girls remain like that uncut? And they don't become wild?" 78. In Sudan, where infibulation is practiced, brothers have tried to protect their young sisters from this torture. Most of them were evicted from the paternal home after terrible quarrels, the parents accusing them of being depraved and of trying to transform their sisters into shameless creatures. Very few succeeded: but, to put an end to the neighbours' gossip, they had to bring their sisters to live under their own rooves in Khartoum or Atbara. "Because in Sudan, it is as unusual not to sew girls' genitals as in the West, it is unusual not to bath the children. It sets the tongues wagging" 80.

                              Last edited by abdulhakeem; 27-11-04, 08:33 PM.
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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by ponderingstar

                                THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN FEMALE CIRCUMCISION AND FGM. (FGM includes the removal of the ****oris - Female circumcision removes the hood)
                                Female Genital Mutilation comprises all procedures involving partial or total removal of the external female genitalia or other injury to the female genital organs whether for cultural, religious or other non-therapeutic reasons.

                                The immediate and long-term health consequences of female genital mutilation vary according to the type and severity of the procedure performed.

                                Immediate complications include:

                                severe pain,



                                urine retention,

                                ulceration of the genital region

                                and injury to adjacent tissue.

                                Long-term complications include:

                                recurring urinary tract infections,

                                pelvic infections,

                                infertility (from deep infections),


                                difficulties in menstruation,

                                fistulae (holes or tunnels between the vagina and the bladder or rectum),

                                painful intercourse,

                                sexual dysfunction,

                                and problems in pregnancy and childbirth (the need to cut the vagina to allow delivery and the trauma that results, often compounded by re-stitching).

                                Female Genital Mutilation is practiced in 28 African countries as well as in Asia (Indonesia) and the Middle-East (Yemen). It is increasingly found in Europe, Australia, Canada and the USA, primarily among immigrants from these countries.

                                Today, the number of girls and women who have undergone female genital mutilation is estimated at between 100 and 140 million. It is estimated that each year, a further 2 million girls are at risk of undergoing FGM.

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