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Female genital mutilation,Haram---Female circumcision,Halal

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  • Re: Muslim scholars speak out against female genital mutilation in rare conference

    hmm well when i became a muslim, my mother said was oh my god theyre going to curcumise you! and she nearly collapsed (shed read in a magazine about the mutillation still carried out by many african/north african tribes and cultures)

    so i went and studied this issue and i spoke to a scolar and a surgeon who carries out this operation in the west due to medical necessity (because that is what its for necessity) who told me that the curcumsision is not done as a matter of course for every girl, nor is it as some say "to reduce the desire of a woman" indeed he said it was the opposite, that there were/are some races, and tribes who have a suseptability to a birth defect whereby, basically if the removal of this particular defect part was not carried out ( and it is not the sensative parts of a woman but a fold of skin which grows over what allows a woman to have pleasure) then the woman would have no pleasure and that is her islamic right, It is nothing to do with the removal of what is usually thought of.

    so I was told that what we think of today as "circumcision" as was done in jahilyah times is not what was done when the prophet salallahu alleyhi wa salam said "take only a little" ( and sub narrators added so as to leave a sparkle in her eyes .. which shows that it is as the shaikh and the surgeon told me a nessecity) and indeed it would be an honour to be circumcised if u had a condition that meant u got no pleasure from "being married "

    even in the uk in victorian times they reconised that a woman who got no pleasure from "being married" ended up suffering from what they called "hysteria" and she used to go to the doctor to "get fixed" so this is actually medically reconised till today as an issue that can cause great harm to a woman.Allahu alam anyway thats how i have understood it
    Last edited by *asiya*; 24-11-06, 05:18 PM.
    "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

    The Prophet :saw: said:

    "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

    muslim

    Narrated 'Abdullah:

    The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


    "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

    By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

    [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]

    Comment


    • Re: Muslim scholars speak out against female genital mutilation in rare conference

      Originally posted by `asiya View Post
      hmm well when i became a muslim, my mother said was oh my god theyre going to curcumise you! and she nearly collapsed (shed read in a magazine about the mutillation still carried out by many african/north african tribes and cultures)

      so i went and studied this issue and i spoke to a scolar and a surgeon who carries out this operation in the west due to medical necessity (because that is what its for necessity) who told me that the curcumsision is not done as a matter of course for every girl, nor is it as some say "to reduce the desire of a woman" indeed he said it was the opposite, that there were/are some races, and tribes who have a suseptability to a birth defect whereby, basically if the removal of this particular defect part was not carried out ( and it is not the sensative parts of a woman but a fold of skin which grows over what allows a woman to have pleasure) then the woman would have no pleasure and that is her islamic right, It is nothing to do with the removal of what is usually thought of.

      so I was told that what we think of today as "circumcision" as was done in jahilyah times is not what was done when the prophet salallahu alleyhi wa salam said "take only a little" ( and sub narrators added so as to leave a sparkle in her eyes .. which shows that it is as the shaikh and the surgeon told me a nessecity) and indeed it would be an honour to be circumcised if u had a condition that meant u got no pleasure from "being married "

      even in the uk in victorian times they reconised that a woman who got no pleasure from "being married" ended up suffering from what they called "hysteria" and she used to go to the doctor to "get fixed" so this is actually medically reconised till today as an issue that can cause great harm to a woman.Allahu alam anyway thats how i have understood it
      sister i dont want to be crude.... but if u want to discuss in detail... female circumcision does nothing to reduce the pleasure of a woman.... in fact it greatly increases a womans pleasure due to obvious reasons and makes it more satisfying for her and for her husband for obvious reasons again... however what it does do is prevent UNWANTED desire especially in the past due to certain habits of women etc... that is why female circumcision was seen as an honour because it was there to prevent unwanted desire not because it would limit pleasure at all....

      that is what is permitted in inslam and which the ulema have said is an honour or a sunnah or wajib depending on the ulema that you take from...

      what is haram and what is in agreement between all the ulema is to do it to such an extent that it removes pleasure for the woman... that is what is forbidden and must be stopped...

      but unfortunately some people cant understand the difference between circumcision and mutilation
      And Allāh has set forth an example for those who believe, the wife of Fir'aun when she said: "My Lord! Build for me a home with You in Paradise, and save me from Fir'aun and his work, and save me from the people who are Zālimūn


      There is no nobility in anyone who lacks faith.

      The wise man knows that the only fitting price for his soul is a place in Paradise.

      Comment


      • Re: Muslim scholars speak out against female genital mutilation in rare conference

        we could go on all day with this.... the end result.... the madhaib and all the traditional ulema believe it is permitted.... the revisionist 'ulema' believe its forbidden.... who anyone wants to follow is up to them but the truth is clear...

        Circumcision: how it is done and the rulings on it

        Question:
        Could you tell us what circumcision is and how and where it is done?.

        Answer:
        Praise be to Allaah.

        Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him) wrote a useful book on the rulings concerning the newborn, which he called Tuhfat al-Mawdood fi Ahkaam al-Mawlood. In this book he wrote an extensive chapter in which he spoke of circumcision and the rulings thereon. The following is a summary of that, with additional comments from some other scholars.
        khitaan):
        Ibn al-Qayyim said:
        Khitaan is a noun describing the action of the circumciser (khaatinal-khitaanaankhafadaghlaf or aqlaf.
        Tuhfat al-Mawlood, 1/152


        An adze (qadoom
        Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said:

        Ibn al-Qayyim said:
        Circumcision was one of the things with which Allaah tested Ibraaheem, His Close Friend. He did them perfectly so Allaah made him a leader of mankind. It was narrated that he was the first one who was circumcised, as mentioned above. What it says in al-Saheeh
        Tuhfat al-Mawdood, p. 158-159
        But the scholars (may Allaah have mercy on them) differed as to the ruling on circumcision.

        The most correct view is that it is obligatory in the case of men and Sunnah in the case of women. The difference between them is that in the case of men, it serves an interest which has to do with one of the conditions of prayer, namely purity (tahaarah), because if the foreskin remains, when the urine comes out of the urethra, some of it will collect there, and this causes burning and infection every time the person moves, and every time the foreskin is squeezed, some drops of urine come out, thus causing najaasah (impurity).
        In the case of women, it serves a useful purpose which is to reduce desire. This is seeking perfection, not removing something harmful.
        , 1/133-134
        This is the view of Imam Ahmad (may Allaah have mercy on him). Ibn Quddamah said in al-Mughni (1/115): As for circumcision, it is obligatory for men and it is good in the case of woman, but it is not obligatory for them.

        : What is cut when circumcising: Muhammad ibn al-Husayn told me that al-Fadl ibn Ziyaad told them: Ahmad was asked, How much should be cut in circumcision? He said, Until the glans (tip of the penis) becomes visible.
        Ibn al-Sabbaagh said in al-Shaamil: What is obligatory in the case of a man is to cut the skin on the tip of the penis until the entire glans becomes visible. In the case of a woman, it means cutting the skin that looks like the comb of a rooster at the top of the vagina, between the two labia; if it is cut the base of it should be left like a date pit.
        Al-Nawawi (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:
        The well-known correct view is that everything covering the glans must be cut.
        , 1/351
        Al-Juwayni said:

        Tuhfat al-Mawdood, 190-192


        Al-Mughni, 1/115
        With regard to the wisdom behind the circumcision of women, it is to regulate their desire so it will be moderate.
        Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about whether women should be circumcised or not. He replied:

        , 21/114

        Ibn Qudaamah said:

        Al-Mughni, 5/314.
        And Allāh has set forth an example for those who believe, the wife of Fir'aun when she said: "My Lord! Build for me a home with You in Paradise, and save me from Fir'aun and his work, and save me from the people who are Zālimūn


        There is no nobility in anyone who lacks faith.

        The wise man knows that the only fitting price for his soul is a place in Paradise.

        Comment


        • Re: Muslim scholars speak out against female genital mutilation in rare conference

          and so on and so forth and so on and on and on and on

          What is the Islamic ruling on female circumcision? Please explain in detail

          And Allāh has set forth an example for those who believe, the wife of Fir'aun when she said: "My Lord! Build for me a home with You in Paradise, and save me from Fir'aun and his work, and save me from the people who are Zālimūn


          There is no nobility in anyone who lacks faith.

          The wise man knows that the only fitting price for his soul is a place in Paradise.

          Comment


          • Re: Muslim scholars speak out against female genital mutilation in rare conference

            Originally posted by Al-Irhaab View Post
            sister i dont want to be crude.... but if u want to discuss in detail... female circumcision does nothing to reduce the pleasure of a woman.... in fact it greatly increases a womans pleasure due to obvious reasons and makes it more satisfying for her and for her husband for obvious reasons again...

            however what it does do is prevent UNWANTED desire especially in the past due to certain habits of women etc... that is why female circumcision was seen as an honour because it was there to prevent unwanted desire not because it would limit pleasure at all....

            that is what is permitted in inslam and which the ulema have said is an honour or a sunnah or wajib depending on the ulema that you take from...

            what is haram and what is in agreement between all the ulema is to do it to such an extent that it removes pleasure for the woman... that is what is forbidden and must be stopped...

            but unfortunately some people cant understand the difference between circumcision and mutilation
            (i think u misread what i wrote because u just rewrote what i said in the first paragraph of your reply, and were not disagreeing)

            But a womans being circumcised could not do anything for her husband at all it doesnt effect him or his enjoyment in the slightest in anyway shape or form its physically impossible for it to make a difference to the man.

            like i said i was told that it is only done if a woman is born with a defect that makes the sensitive part of her covered over and not acessible, then a little of it should be removed, ie: (and i quote from the hadith) "the roosters comb" above the "something sticking out" "and do not go to extremes in cutting." so that she can have some pleasure, if too much "of the comb" is removed and the "somthing sticking out " is touched, then it is the woman who will suffer and have to divorce her husband if he doesnt have the ability to fufill her desire in the usual way,this is surely why women have a back up piece of equipment built into their bodies, because some men are quite lacking in some regards, remove this back up and theres nothing left for her pleasure.

            certainly i beleive it is something permissible and even beneficial to a woman who suffers like this, i dont have any argument against what the scholars have already said other than having had some further clarificiation on the details of the matter from a scolar and surgeon who carries out this procedure,the scolars are quite right to speak out about the mutilation of women and dispell some of the nonsense and myths which surround this issue, may Allah ta ala bless them guide us all to the haq amin.
            Last edited by *asiya*; 24-11-06, 07:18 PM.
            "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

            The Prophet :saw: said:

            "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

            muslim

            Narrated 'Abdullah:

            The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


            "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

            By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

            [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]

            Comment


            • Re: Muslim scholars speak out against female genital mutilation in rare conference

              "...But the purpose of circumcising women is to regulate their desire, because if a woman is not circumcised her desire will be strong.the uncircumcised woman has stronger desire. Hence immoral actions are more common among the women of the Tatars and the Franks, that are not found among the Muslim women. If the circumcision is too severe, the desire is weakened altogether, which is unpleasing for men; but if it is cut without going to extremes in that, the purpose will be achieved, which is moderating desire. ..."


              The above would appear in clear and obvious contradiction with 'Asiya's understanding of the practice.

              The purpose of even halal female circumcision is to prevent a woman from having "strong desire."

              Comment


              • Re: Muslim scholars speak out against female genital mutilation in rare conference

                Originally posted by `asiya View Post
                (i think u misread what i wrote because u just rewrote what i said in the first paragraph of your reply, and were not disagreeing)

                But a womans being circumcised could not do anything for her husband at all it doesnt effect him or his enjoyment in the slightest in anyway shape or form its physically impossible for it to make a difference to the man.

                like i said i was told that it is only done if a woman is born with a defect that makes the sensitive part of her covered over and not acessible, then a little of it should be removed, ie: (and i quote from the hadith) "the roosters comb" above the "something sticking out" "and do not go to extremes in cutting." so that she can have some pleasure, if too much "of the comb" is removed and the "somthing sticking out " is touched, then it is the woman who will suffer and have to divorce her husband if he doesnt have the ability to fufill her desire in the usual way,this is surely why women have a back up piece of equipment built into their bodies, because some men are quite lacking in some regards, remove this back up and theres nothing left for her pleasure.

                certainly i beleive it is something permissible and even beneficial to a woman who suffers like this, i dont have any argument against what the scholars have already said other than having had some further clarificiation on the details of the matter from a scolar and surgeon who carries out this procedure,the scolars are quite right to speak out about the mutilation of women and dispell some of the nonsense and myths which surround this issue, may Allah ta ala bless them guide us all to the haq amin.
                sorry my bad i thought u said something else... yes it is a great injustice to cut deep... the reason why i said it affects the man is obviously because hen he will be unable to satisfy his wife causing marrital problems etc.... also it will subdue her desire to such an extent where she will not get pleasure from intimacy aswell...
                And Allāh has set forth an example for those who believe, the wife of Fir'aun when she said: "My Lord! Build for me a home with You in Paradise, and save me from Fir'aun and his work, and save me from the people who are Zālimūn


                There is no nobility in anyone who lacks faith.

                The wise man knows that the only fitting price for his soul is a place in Paradise.

                Comment


                • Re: Muslim scholars speak out against female genital mutilation in rare conference

                  sah agreed masha Allah barakallahu feek amin
                  "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

                  The Prophet :saw: said:

                  "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

                  muslim

                  Narrated 'Abdullah:

                  The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


                  "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

                  By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

                  [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]

                  Comment


                  • Re: Muslim scholars speak out against female genital mutilation in rare conference

                    "Past the seeker as he prayed came the crippled and the beggar and the beaten. And seeing them...he cried, "Great God, how is it that a loving creator can see such things and yet do nothing about them?"...God said, "I did do something. I made you."" -- Sufi Teaching

                    Comment


                    • Re: Muslim scholars speak out against female genital mutilation in rare conference

                      Originally posted by abdulhakeem View Post
                      According to the World Health Organisation (WHO), the majority of girls and women who have been circumcised are to be found in 28 African states. "Today, the number of girls and women who have undergone female genital mutilation is estimated at between 100 and 140 million," adds the agency, on its website. "It is estimated that each year, a further 2 million girls are at risk of undergoing FGM."
                      All those poor girls. :(

                      That's horrible.
                      I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself. A bird will fall frozen dead from a bough without ever having felt sorry for itself. D. H. Lawrence

                      Comment


                      • female circumcision

                        Is female circumcision (sp?) an Islamic belief or is it a cultural belief? I have a friend who believes it is Islamic and not cultural; I say it is cultural because Prophet Muhammad PBUH never said anything about it.

                        Comment


                        • Re: female circumcision

                          :salams

                          Prophet Muhammad :saw: actually did say something about it.

                          It is Mustahabb (commendable) for females to circumcise. It is narrated in
                          an authentic Hadith quoted from Abu Dawood Shareef that during the Prophet
                          (Sallallaahu ?layhi Wasallam)'s time there was a woman in Madinah who used
                          to perform circumcision for women (Fathul Bari vol. 16 p. 353)

                          and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best
                          AskImam

                          It's not obligatory, like it is for boys. It's a Sunnah, though.


                          Praise be to Allaah.

                          Circumcising females is sunnah; it is neither a bad practice or harmful, if it is done within moderation. When extreme forms of female circumcision are carried out, harm may result.
                          IslamQA

                          More on this topic here.
                          Last edited by .mirror.; 04-03-11, 01:10 AM.
                          Secure few moments, everyday, to reflect upon the innumerable blessings of Allah and thank Him for bestowing them upon you.

                          "A person who is blessed with the ability to be grateful, shall never be deprived of barakah and increase in blessings."
                          - Rasulullah (صلی اللہ علیہ وسلم)‎

                          Comment


                          • Re: female circumcision

                            Maliki opinion:
                            It is a strong mandub for Muslim men past puberty not already circumcised to become circumcised.

                            As for females, it is not a stressed sunnah for them to become circumcised. However, it is a fadilah (weaker
                            mandub) to remove the small cap over the clitoris in females (of all ages). [Nothing more than this small cap
                            should be cut.] Please note that cutting this small cap usually does not affect the ability of the female to reach
                            orgasm (and by cutting this cap, the female will be able to get mandub credit in the next world for having
                            performing circumcision).
                            From Guiding Helper. Different schools have different opinions. I don't think anyone says it's wajib though.

                            Ninja'd :(
                            :fairy: Islamic Prints :fairy:
                            ~~~Muslim Vegan~~~
                            PALEO!

                            Enormity = wicked act. Enormousness = great size. The difference: you can haz. Learn it, love it.

                            Comment


                            • Re: female circumcision

                              Originally posted by SammiMe View Post
                              Is female circumcision (sp?) an Islamic belief or is it a cultural belief? I have a friend who believes it is Islamic and not cultural; I say it is cultural because Prophet Muhammad PBUH never said anything about it.
                              Is an islamic one but many cultures perform it wrong. Most of them do the vile act of female genital mutilation which is strictly forbidden. Those vile monsters cut off the actual clitoris which is equivalent of chopping off the head of a penis (probably more painful as it has ten times the nerve endings).

                              The only part which can be trimmed is the hood of the clitoris - but some women have tiny hoods which just about cover the clitoris so its not safe or feasible to do so (hence the recommended but not compulsory).

                              Comment

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