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"Honor" Killings

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  • Khalid b. Walid
    replied
    Re: "Honor" Killings

    Originally posted by nousername View Post
    Do they even ask them selves if they love their daughter or their village more? How can you raise a child, bring her into the world and take care of her, then she makes a mistake and all that love is lost and you murder her?? It makes me wonder if they even love their daughters in the first place...
    When people are in a state of ignorance, they are capable of anything.

    Here we are talking about the issue of honour killings. In pre-Islamic Arabia they would bury their daughters alive. In India women used to throw themselves on the burning pyre of their dead husbands.

    Leave a comment:


  • -Shamil-
    replied
    Re: "Honor" Killings

    people that kill their own blood also bring shame on the family/clan so according to their own logic people who do "honor killings" should themselves be "honor killed" :up:

    Leave a comment:


  • nousername
    replied
    Re: "Honor" Killings

    Do they even ask them selves if they love their daughter or their village more? How can you raise a child, bring her into the world and take care of her, then she makes a mistake and all that love is lost and you murder her?? It makes me wonder if they even love their daughters in the first place...

    Leave a comment:


  • .mirror.
    replied
    Re: "Honor" Killings

    Leave the village. Relocate. Everything is new. No one knows you. No one will judge you. New beginning. Hopefully this time they'll do it right.

    Leave a comment:


  • haque
    replied
    Re: "Honor" Killings

    Originally posted by Safiya View Post
    Besides, in whose eyes is their family "honour" meant to be held?
    This is a fascinating discussion, Safiya, try to look at it this way: a family's reputation is like their passport into society. As long as they have a good reputation, they will be invited to social occasions; other people will be okay associating with them; it will be easier for their children to get married; and they can have a say in community affairs, etc.

    However, when something happens which damages their reputation, all of a sudden their passport is revoked. People might not want to invite them to social occasions anymore lest they be judged negatively by the wider community for doing so; other people might not want to associate with them in order to avoid acquiring the same kind of reputation as them (i.e. guilty by association); their children might have a harder time getting married because other families might not want to marry into a family with such a dubious reputation; they might lose their ability to have a say in community affairs because they have such a shameful cloud surrounding them, etc.

    I'm not trying to justify "honor" killings but as you can see, living in such an environment, it's almost pragmatic for families to do such things. So HOW do we change the way people react to such situations? Is there a different way we can give them to restore their "honor" and "reputation"?
    Last edited by haque; 19-06-11, 02:03 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • .mirror.
    replied
    Re: "Honor" Killings

    Originally posted by haque View Post
    An unmarried girl is caught having sex with a bunch of guys, the whole village thinks that the girl is promiscuous and her family has no class. Therefore, it's concluded by social consensus that nobody should associate with the girl or her family anymore, lest their negativity spreads to the other families in the area. What do you do?
    Number one - Forget the society (village). They got bigger problems at home to deal with.
    Then, they should try to make her understand what she did was wrong and she should repent.

    If she seems to get it, then :insha: things will fall back in place.
    If not, then lock her inside the house. No, I'm serious, though, I don't know what else they can do to prevent her from doing it again.
    I don't think marriage would be good, since it would be forced at this point.

    It's complicated.

    May Allah never test us like this.

    Originally posted by Safiya View Post
    I can never understand how it somehow reclaims your family "honour", that makes no sense at all.
    Was gonna say the exact same thing.

    How will that even give one peace of mind thinking that they just killed their family member?
    It's making things worse, really.

    Originally posted by loonietoonie View Post
    I think they think they're amputating an irreparable diseased limb and disconnecting it from the family.

    "This never belonged to us" kind of mentality.
    It's only an illusion at best. The truth is still that she was the daughter or sister or whatever, of the family.

    It's like saying, "I treat my female friends like sisters, I even call them sis." That doesn't mean anything. It won't make her your sister, and similarly killing someone doesn't end your relationship to them.

    Leave a comment:


  • loonietoonie
    replied
    Re: "Honor" Killings

    Originally posted by Safiya View Post
    Pragmatic? Perhaps.
    Rational? No, which is kinda the point.

    Anyway... Acceptable in Islam? No.

    I can never understand how it somehow reclaims your family "honour", that makes no sense at all. If these people used their brains a little, they'd realise that their perception of "honour" is all wrong, never mind trying to reclaim it.

    Besides, in whose eyes is their family "honour" meant to be held? For whom are they killing their wife/daughter/sister/niece/cousin? It's clearly not for the sake of Allah. The fact is, people who go to such extremes have deeper issues that need to be dealt with - their lack of Islam.
    I think they think they're amputating an irreparable diseased limb and disconnecting it from the family.

    "This never belonged to us" kind of mentality.

    Leave a comment:


  • Soliloquy
    replied
    Re: "Honor" Killings

    Originally posted by haque View Post
    While I think that it's easy to say that honor killings are irrational, I however think that they are cold-bloodedly pragmatic, and that's why people do them.

    So lets break this down:

    Problem: Girl does something sexual outside of marriage causing her family' reputation to be tarnished.
    "Solution": The girl is killed to recover the family's honor.

    Muslims argue that honor killings are haram because the person, who supposedly committed the crime, was not tried under Shari'ah, therefore, any actions taken against them are wrong i.e extra-judicial killings are wrong.

    So the obvious problem which comes to mind is that people who live in such cultures have no other way to "recover" their honor other than to kill the girl, who caused it to be tarnished in the first place. Considering that there is no country which applies Shari'ah in its entirety and it doesn't seem like any will start to do so anytime soon: how can we change the culture in those places in a way that sexual infractions are not dealt with in such a way?

    In other words, how do you tell people that there's no need for such killings when they obviously live in an environment which tells them that there is?
    Pragmatic? Perhaps.
    Rational? No, which is kinda the point.

    Anyway... Acceptable in Islam? No.

    I can never understand how it somehow reclaims your family "honour", that makes no sense at all. If these people used their brains a little, they'd realise that their perception of "honour" is all wrong, never mind trying to reclaim it.

    Besides, in whose eyes is their family "honour" meant to be held? For whom are they killing their wife/daughter/sister/niece/cousin? It's clearly not for the sake of Allah. The fact is, people who go to such extremes have deeper issues that need to be dealt with - their lack of Islam.

    Leave a comment:


  • haque
    replied
    Re: "Honor" Killings

    Originally posted by .mirror. View Post
    Depends. Give me a scenario.
    An unmarried girl is caught having sex with a bunch of guys, the whole village thinks that the girl is promiscuous and her family has no class. Therefore, it's concluded by social consensus that nobody should associate with the girl or her family anymore, lest their negativity spreads to the other families in the area. What do you do?

    P.S. if I said something offensive, please bring it to my attention and forgive me.

    Leave a comment:


  • .mirror.
    replied
    Re: "Honor" Killings

    Originally posted by SILURES View Post
    its just culture isnt it? every culture has the same even western culture. how many times have you read/heard a man killed or attacked another man for cheating with his wife then killed her to? its not just a eastern/arab type thing.

    one thing people say to try and show islam allows it is a hadith (ill try and find it now) that says something like there will be no punishment for a parent who kills their own child? anyone seen that and knows what it actually means?
    Which hadith?

    Leave a comment:


  • .mirror.
    replied
    Re: "Honor" Killings

    Depends. Give me a scenario.

    Leave a comment:


  • haque
    replied
    Re: "Honor" Killings

    Originally posted by .mirror. View Post
    Educate the parents on how to raise children Islamically and what to do if these situations come about.
    You hit it on the head, but that's exactly the point of this thread: WHAT do you do when these kinds of situations arise?

    Leave a comment:


  • SILURES
    replied
    Re: "Honor" Killings

    its just culture isnt it? every culture has the same even western culture. how many times have you read/heard a man killed or attacked another man for cheating with his wife then killed her to? its not just a eastern/arab type thing.

    one thing people say to try and show islam allows it is a hadith (ill try and find it now) that says something like there will be no punishment for a parent who kills their own child? anyone seen that and knows what it actually means?

    Leave a comment:


  • .mirror.
    replied
    Re: "Honor" Killings

    I think it's to general to say "something sexual." Hadd punishment is only allowed if she was married and then had intercourse with another man. So, anything besides that is not allowed for hadd punishment, and it's never allowed for anyone to give he command for it, besides the ruler or Shari judge. Allahu Alam.

    It's major jahiliya, really. Akin to burying an infant child just because she's a girl.

    How do we fix this?

    Educate the parents on how to raise children Islamically and what to do if these situations come about.

    Leave a comment:


  • haque
    replied
    Re: "Honor" Killings

    Originally posted by Safiya View Post
    I don't think we're meant to understand an act so irrational and disgusting.
    While I think that it's easy to say that honor killings are irrational, I however think that they are cold-bloodedly pragmatic, and that's why people do them.

    So lets break this down:

    Problem: Girl does something sexual outside of marriage causing her family' reputation to be tarnished.
    "Solution": The girl is killed to recover the family's honor.

    Muslims argue that honor killings are haram because the person, who supposedly committed the crime, was not tried under Shari'ah, therefore, any actions taken against them are wrong i.e extra-judicial killings are wrong.

    So the obvious problem which comes to mind is that people who live in such cultures have no other way to "recover" their honor other than to kill the girl, who caused it to be tarnished in the first place. Considering that there is no country which applies Shari'ah in its entirety and it doesn't seem like any will start to do so anytime soon: how can we change the culture in those places in a way that sexual infractions are not dealt with in such a way?

    In other words, how do you tell people that there's no need for such killings when they obviously live in an environment which tells them that there is?
    Last edited by haque; 19-06-11, 01:00 AM.

    Leave a comment:

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