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A Critique of Husam al-Haramayn: How a fatwa split the Ummah

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Upon which planet are you living?!
    This means that youโ€™re not in a position to discuss this issue, because you're not aware of your own Madhhab.

    The issue of asking intercession is regarded as one of those things that nullify ones Islam by Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) and he claims that this is the very Shirk of the Makkan pagans.
    And on the "Salafi" "Islamqa"-website quotes Ibn Baz explicitly stating itโ€˜s Shirk akbar to ask for intercession and then comes up with some atheist justification for this ugly claim.
    According to the Najdis this is the primary reason for fighting other Muslims.


    Now I ask you yet another time:
    Is this extremism or is fighting Muslims because of this issue a justified issue?
    For once answer my question and donโ€˜t run away to another issue.
    This is the statement of 'Abdullah, one of the spiritual leaders of the Najdis and the son of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab:

    ูุฅู† ู‚ุงู„ ู‚ุงุฆู„ ู…ู†ูุฑ ุนู† ู‚ุจูˆู„ ุงู„ุญู‚ ูˆุงู„ุฅุฐุนุงู† ู„ู‡ : ูŠู„ุฒู… ู…ู† ุชู‚ุฑูŠุฑูƒู…ุŒ ูˆู‚ุทุนูƒู… ููŠ ุฃู† ู…ู† ู‚ุงู„ ูŠุง ุฑุณูˆู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ุŒ ุฃุณุฃู„ูƒ ุงู„ุดูุงุนุฉ : ุฃู†ู‡ ู…ุดุฑูƒ ู…ู‡ุฏุฑ ุงู„ุฏู… ุ› ุฃู† ูŠู‚ุงู„ ุจูƒูุฑ ุบุงู„ุจ ุงู„ุฃู…ุฉ ุŒ ูˆู„ุง ุณูŠู…ุง ุงู„ู…ุชุฃุฎุฑูŠู†ุŒ ู„ุชุตุฑูŠุญ ุนู„ู…ุงุฆู‡ู… ุงู„ู…ุนุชุจุฑูŠู† : ุฃู† ุฐู„ูƒ ู…ู†ุฏูˆุจุŒ ูˆุดู†ูˆุง ุงู„ุบุงุฑุฉ ุนู„ู‰ ู…ู† ุฎุงู„ู ููŠ ุฐู„ูƒ ! ู‚ู„ุช : ู„ุง ูŠู„ุฒู…ุŒ ู„ุฃู† ู„ุงุฒู… ุงู„ู…ุฐู‡ุจ ู„ูŠุณ ุจู…ุฐู‡ุจุŒ ูƒู…ุง ู‡ูˆ ู…ู‚ุฑุฑุŒ ูˆู…ุซู„ ุฐู„ูƒ : ู„ุง ูŠู„ุฒู… ุฃู† ู†ูƒูˆู† ู…ุฌุณู…ุฉุŒ ูˆุฅู† ู‚ู„ู†ุง ุจุฌู‡ุฉ ุงู„ุนู„ูˆุŒ ูƒู…ุง ูˆุฑุฏ ุงู„ุญุฏูŠุซ ุจุฐู„ูƒ .ูˆู†ุญู† ู†ู‚ูˆู„ ููŠู…ู† ู…ุงุช : ุชู„ูƒ ุฃู…ุฉ ู‚ุฏ ุฎู„ุช ุ› ูˆู„ุง ู†ูƒูุฑ ุฅู„ุง ู…ู† ุจู„ุบุชู‡ ุฏุนูˆุชู†ุง ู„ู„ุญู‚ุŒ ูˆูˆุถุญุช ู„ู‡ ุงู„ู…ุญุฌุฉุŒ ูˆู‚ุงู…ุช ุนู„ูŠู‡ ุงู„ุญุฌุฉุŒ ูˆุฃุตุฑ ู…ุณุชูƒุจุฑุงู‹ ู…ุนุงู†ุฏุงู‹ุŒ ูƒุบุงู„ุจ ู…ู† ู†ู‚ุงุชู„ู‡ู… ุงู„ูŠูˆู…ุŒ ูŠุตุฑูˆู† ุนู„ู‰ ุฐู„ูƒ ุงู„ุฅุดุฑุงูƒุŒ ูˆูŠู…ุชู†ุนูˆู† ู…ู† ูุนู„ ุงู„ูˆุงุฌุจุงุชุŒ ูˆูŠุชุธุงู‡ุฑูˆู† ุจุฃูุนุงู„ ุงู„ูƒุจุงุฆุฑุŒ ุงู„ู…ุญุฑู…ุงุช ุ› ูˆุบูŠุฑ ุงู„ุบุงู„ุจ : ุฅู†ู…ุง ู†ู‚ุงุชู„ู‡ ู„ู…ู†ุงุตุฑุชู‡ ู…ู† ู‡ุฐู‡ ุญุงู„ู‡ุŒ ูˆุฑุถุงู‡ ุจู‡ุŒ ูˆู„ุชูƒุซูŠุฑ ุณูˆุงุฏ ู…ู† ุฐูƒุฑุŒ ูˆุงู„ุชุฃู„ูŠุจ ู…ุนู‡ุŒ ูู„ู‡ ุญูŠู†ุฆุฐ ุญูƒู…ู‡ ููŠ ู‚ุชุงู„ู‡

    If someone - trying to cause [a feeling of] opposition against accepting the truth and submission to it - says:
    Your statement and certain assertion that the one who says "O Messenger of Allah, I ask for your intercession" is a polytheist whose blood is to be spilled, necessitates that one affirms the disbelief of the majority of the [Islamic] nation (Umma), especially the later ones [from among them], because their relied upon scholars have said that this is allowed and attacked the one who opposed in this [issue].
    I say: This is not necessitated, because that which a statement necessitates is not the statement itself (Lazim al-Madhhab laysa bi Madhhab) as it is established and this is just like itโ€˜s not necessary for us to be Mujassima just because we affirm the direction of highness (for Allah ta'ala) as the narration came regarding it.
    We say regarding the one who has [already] died: { These were a nation that have passed away } [2:134] and we do not declare anyone to be a disbeliever except the one whom our call to truth has reached and the argument has become obvious to him and the proof has been established upon him and [thereafter] he [still] arrogantly and stubbornly insists [upon doing this] like the majority we fight today:
    They insist on this committing of polytheism (Ishrak)
    and stay away from fulfilling the obligations and commit major sins and [other] sins.
    As for the non-majority: We fight them for supporting the one whose state is like that and are pleased with them and make the group of those mentioned [before] larger and are allied to them, then the ruling of fighting against them applies to them also.

    - end of quote -

    The above quote is taken from the Wahhabi book al-Durar al-Saniyya (compilation of the statements of the Najdis).


    As you see heโ€˜s trying to act as if theyโ€™re not extreme and not making Takfir upon the Muslims who lived before and excused them, even though these Muslims and their scholars had committed that which the Najdis regarded as polytheism that makes the blood allowed (i.e. asking the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - for intercession).
    But at the same time he canโ€˜t hide that heโ€˜s belonging to a cultist bloodthirsty Khariji sect that regards only their own group as [real] Muslims by claiming that the people of their own time - who are upon the same things like the Muslims before - are now deserving to be fought, because the Najdi call has reached them!!
    So if any scholar from the past had lived in their time and would have resumed to support seeking intercession, they would have regarded him a "polytheist deserving to be killed".
    (Do not be fooled by his lie that he accused the majority group of additionally: He only mentions this in his Khariji vain to make his Takfir seem more acceptable.)

    And now I ask:
    Is the above not a prime example for cultist Khariji behavior and extremism?
    I want an answer!
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 05-03-20, 04:18 PM.

    Comment


    • #77
      Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

      I have already brought enough quotes by classical scholars to back my position...
      That wasn't the request.

      I meant share material from today. Some of their scholars and duaat do speak against practices of the people at graves and around magic/amulets but it doesn't reflect the severity of the issue. Add to this the book by the well respected Sunni Hanafi Maturidi scholar.

      The point here is that despite the fatwas, the practices still go on by self proclaimed Sunnis who even claim to follow Ahmad Raza Khan! You see fatwas from Salafi scholars about certain forms of extremism yet the practices still go on by self proclaimed Salafis. Do we bring the rulings and then declare that we can't trust any claims that extremism exists because here is a fatwa that speaks against extremism. You would because you're sectarian.

      Now itโ€˜s your turn to prove your accusations of Shirk against other Muslim:
      - Please show us that the classical scholars regarded it as real polytheism that throws one out of the religion, if someone seeks aid (Istighatha) with the Prophets and the Righteous. (I can bring you quotes from them saying thatโ€˜s it not wrong to do so and some said it's disallowed - especially for laymen - due to fear that it could lead to wrong beliefs.)
      - Please show us that the one who wears something that he ties around the neck containing Ayat or supplications with correct wordings has committed real Shirk that throws one out of the religion. ( This is something allowed and done by the companions!)
      - Please show us that touching a grave of a righteous person is polytheism that throws one out of religion. (Itโ€˜s disliked, but some scholars have mentioned that if the intention is Tabbaruk, then itโ€™s not wrong.)
      ...
      Please quote where I made those specific accusations.
      Last edited by Abu 'Abdullaah; 05-03-20, 07:41 PM.

      Comment


      • #78
        Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
        ...Itโ€˜s scary how youโ€™re hellbent on distorting what Iโ€˜ve stated. This is pure Wahhabi behavior and extremism...
        You said, "...A person may simply be mistaken regarding whether something is a mean for attaining blessing or not. How does that turn into Shirk without having any Shirki beliefs?..."

        I'm not sure what you're getting at here so I'm asking for clarification because I want to be as clear as possible about your position on this matter. It's the opposite of distortion.

        Oooh, the evil Wahhabi is trying to kill me boo hoo...

        -_-

        Comment


        • #79
          Don't try to change the subject by commenting on secondary issues.
          I'm waiting for your answer:
          Is that which 'Abdullah bin Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1244 AH) said justified according to you or not?:

          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

          This is the statement of 'Abdullah, one of the spiritual leaders of the Najdis and the son of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab:

          ูุฅู† ู‚ุงู„ ู‚ุงุฆู„ ู…ู†ูุฑ ุนู† ู‚ุจูˆู„ ุงู„ุญู‚ ูˆุงู„ุฅุฐุนุงู† ู„ู‡ : ูŠู„ุฒู… ู…ู† ุชู‚ุฑูŠุฑูƒู…ุŒ ูˆู‚ุทุนูƒู… ููŠ ุฃู† ู…ู† ู‚ุงู„ ูŠุง ุฑุณูˆู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ุŒ ุฃุณุฃู„ูƒ ุงู„ุดูุงุนุฉ : ุฃู†ู‡ ู…ุดุฑูƒ ู…ู‡ุฏุฑ ุงู„ุฏู… ุ› ุฃู† ูŠู‚ุงู„ ุจูƒูุฑ ุบุงู„ุจ ุงู„ุฃู…ุฉ ุŒ ูˆู„ุง ุณูŠู…ุง ุงู„ู…ุชุฃุฎุฑูŠู†ุŒ ู„ุชุตุฑูŠุญ ุนู„ู…ุงุฆู‡ู… ุงู„ู…ุนุชุจุฑูŠู† : ุฃู† ุฐู„ูƒ ู…ู†ุฏูˆุจุŒ ูˆุดู†ูˆุง ุงู„ุบุงุฑุฉ ุนู„ู‰ ู…ู† ุฎุงู„ู ููŠ ุฐู„ูƒ ! ู‚ู„ุช : ู„ุง ูŠู„ุฒู…ุŒ ู„ุฃู† ู„ุงุฒู… ุงู„ู…ุฐู‡ุจ ู„ูŠุณ ุจู…ุฐู‡ุจุŒ ูƒู…ุง ู‡ูˆ ู…ู‚ุฑุฑุŒ ูˆู…ุซู„ ุฐู„ูƒ : ู„ุง ูŠู„ุฒู… ุฃู† ู†ูƒูˆู† ู…ุฌุณู…ุฉุŒ ูˆุฅู† ู‚ู„ู†ุง ุจุฌู‡ุฉ ุงู„ุนู„ูˆุŒ ูƒู…ุง ูˆุฑุฏ ุงู„ุญุฏูŠุซ ุจุฐู„ูƒ .ูˆู†ุญู† ู†ู‚ูˆู„ ููŠู…ู† ู…ุงุช : ุชู„ูƒ ุฃู…ุฉ ู‚ุฏ ุฎู„ุช ุ› ูˆู„ุง ู†ูƒูุฑ ุฅู„ุง ู…ู† ุจู„ุบุชู‡ ุฏุนูˆุชู†ุง ู„ู„ุญู‚ุŒ ูˆูˆุถุญุช ู„ู‡ ุงู„ู…ุญุฌุฉุŒ ูˆู‚ุงู…ุช ุนู„ูŠู‡ ุงู„ุญุฌุฉุŒ ูˆุฃุตุฑ ู…ุณุชูƒุจุฑุงู‹ ู…ุนุงู†ุฏุงู‹ุŒ ูƒุบุงู„ุจ ู…ู† ู†ู‚ุงุชู„ู‡ู… ุงู„ูŠูˆู…ุŒ ูŠุตุฑูˆู† ุนู„ู‰ ุฐู„ูƒ ุงู„ุฅุดุฑุงูƒุŒ ูˆูŠู…ุชู†ุนูˆู† ู…ู† ูุนู„ ุงู„ูˆุงุฌุจุงุชุŒ ูˆูŠุชุธุงู‡ุฑูˆู† ุจุฃูุนุงู„ ุงู„ูƒุจุงุฆุฑุŒ ุงู„ู…ุญุฑู…ุงุช ุ› ูˆุบูŠุฑ ุงู„ุบุงู„ุจ : ุฅู†ู…ุง ู†ู‚ุงุชู„ู‡ ู„ู…ู†ุงุตุฑุชู‡ ู…ู† ู‡ุฐู‡ ุญุงู„ู‡ุŒ ูˆุฑุถุงู‡ ุจู‡ุŒ ูˆู„ุชูƒุซูŠุฑ ุณูˆุงุฏ ู…ู† ุฐูƒุฑุŒ ูˆุงู„ุชุฃู„ูŠุจ ู…ุนู‡ุŒ ูู„ู‡ ุญูŠู†ุฆุฐ ุญูƒู…ู‡ ููŠ ู‚ุชุงู„ู‡

          If someone - trying to cause [a feeling of] opposition against accepting the truth and submission to it - says:
          Your statement and certain assertion that the one who says "O Messenger of Allah, I ask for your intercession" is a polytheist whose blood is to be spilled, necessitates that one affirms the disbelief of the majority of the [Islamic] nation (Umma), especially the later ones [from among them], because their relied upon scholars have said that this is allowed and attacked the one who opposed in this [issue].
          I say: This is not necessitated, because that which a statement necessitates is not the statement itself (Lazim al-Madhhab laysa bi Madhhab) as it is established and this is just like itโ€˜s not necessary for us to be Mujassima just because we affirm the direction of highness (for Allah ta'ala) as the narration came regarding it.
          We say regarding the one who has [already] died: { These were a nation that have passed away } [2:134] and we do not declare anyone to be a disbeliever except the one whom our call to truth has reached and the argument has become obvious to him and the proof has been established upon him and [thereafter] he [still] arrogantly and stubbornly insists [upon doing this] like the majority we fight today:
          They insist on this committing of polytheism (Ishrak)
          and stay away from fulfilling the obligations and commit major sins and [other] sins.
          As for the non-majority: We fight them for supporting the one whose state is like that and are pleased with them and make the group of those mentioned [before] larger and are allied to them, then the ruling of fighting against them applies to them also.

          - end of quote -

          The above quote is taken from the Wahhabi book al-Durar al-Saniyya (compilation of the statements of the Najdis).

          Comment


          • #80
            Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
            ...Letโ€˜s for the sake of argument accept your false claim against the Hanafis of Pakistan:
            According to the Hanafi Maturidi standards it would be a major crime to support the killing of other Muslims.
            According to the Najdi standards however itโ€˜s a good thing to kill other non-Najdi Muslims, because theyโ€™re "polytheists" in their creed!

            By the way: The Muslims who America kills in Afghanistan are also Hanafis and are "polytheists" according to Najdi standards, so donโ€™t try to fool us with your crocodile tears...
            It's not a false claim, we have Pakistani Hanafis on this very forum who openly support the Pak/US alliance in the so-called war on terror. They cheer when their so-called brothers and sisters are killed in airstrikes. They see those that support their people, our people, against the US led war, where countless women and children have been killed indiscriminately, as extremists. They say they are Wahhabis or influenced by Wahhabis. I mean, the Hanafis of Afghanistan literally hosted al-Qaida and 'Salafis' went and fought alongside the Hanafis of Afghanistan against the Russians.

            In the west, or the UK at least, who are most vocal supporters of the 'Taliban' in Afghanistan? Many Muslims speak against the invasion but very few actually go further to say they support the Taliban. Yes, it's mainly 'Salafi-Jihadis.'

            As for my crocodile tears, see above. I have always spoken for the Hanafis of Afghanistan. I don't recall seeing you post about them in your five years here. I've even spoken more for Iraq than you have on here, and you're from there!

            To conclude, there is an alliance based on brotherhood despite differing schools of thought and this angers you. You can't accept it and want to drive a sectarian wedge between Muslims... and then blame Wahhabis for it.

            Comment


            • #81
              According to the "logic" of 'Abdullah bin Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1244 AH) the quoted scholars (and many many more) were supporting Shirk akbar (!!!) and if they would have happened to lived in their time, they would have deserved the sword, because the Najdi "call to truth" would have reached them (as if these scholars were from the Ahl al-Fatra and waiting for the Najdis to teach them Tawhid! Allahul musta'an!):

              Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

              - From the Hanafi Fiqh book al-Ikhtiyar li Ta'lil al-Mukhtar [by Imam al-Mawsilli (d. 683 AH)]:

              ูˆู‚ุฏ ู‚ุงู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุชุนุงู„ู‰ : ( ูˆู„ูˆ ุฃู†ู‡ู… ุฅุฐ ุธู„ู…ูˆุง ุฃู†ูุณู‡ู… ุฌุงุกูˆูƒ ูุงุณุชุบูุฑูˆุง ุงู„ู„ู‡ ูˆุงุณุชุบูุฑ ู„ู‡ู… ุงู„ุฑุณูˆู„ ู„ูˆุฌุฏูˆุง ุงู„ู„ู‡ุชูˆุงุจุง ุฑุญูŠู…ุง ) ูˆู‚ุฏ ุฌุฆู†ุงูƒ ุธุงู„ู…ูŠู† ู„ุฃู†ูุณู†ุง ุŒ ู…ุณุชุบูุฑูŠู† ู„ุฐู†ูˆุจู†ุง ุŒ ูุงุดูุน ู„ู†ุง ุฅู„ู‰ ุฑุจูƒ ุŒ ูˆุฃุณุฃู„ู‡ ุฃู† ูŠู…ูŠุชู†ุงุนู„ู‰ ุณู†ุชูƒ ุŒ ูˆุฃู† ูŠุญุดุฑู†ุง ููŠ ุฒู…ุฑุชูƒ ุŒ ูˆุฃู† ูŠูˆุฑุฏู†ุง ุญูˆุถูƒ ุŒ ูˆุฃู† ูŠุณู‚ูŠู†ุง ูƒุฃุณูƒ ุบูŠุฑ ุฎุฒุงูŠุง ูˆู„ุง ู†ุงุฏู…ูŠู†ุŒ ุงู„ุดูุงุนุฉ ุงู„ุดูุงุนุฉ ูŠุง ุฑุณูˆู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุŒ ูŠู‚ูˆู„ู‡ุง ุซู„ุงุซุง : ( ุฑุจู†ุง ุงุบูุฑ ู„ู†ุง ูˆู„ุฅุฎูˆุงู†ู†ุง ุงู„ุฐูŠู† ุณุจู‚ูˆู†ุง ุจุงู„ุฅูŠู…ุงู† )ุงู„ุขูŠุฉ .ูˆูŠุจู„ุบู‡ ุณู„ุงู… ู…ู† ุฃูˆุตุงู‡ ููŠู‚ูˆู„ : ุงู„ุณู„ุงู… ุนู„ูŠูƒ ูŠุง ุฑุณูˆู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ู…ู† ูู„ุงู† ุจู† ูู„ุงู† ุŒ ูŠุณุชุดูุน ุจูƒ ุฅู„ู‰ุฑุจูƒ ูุงุดูุน ู„ู‡ ูˆู„ุฌู…ูŠุน ุงู„ู…ุณู„ู…ูŠู†

              Allah ta'ala says: { If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allahโ€™s forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful } [4:64].
              So weโ€™ve come to you, having wronged ourselves and asking [Allah] for forgiveness regarding our sins, so intercede for us to your Lord and ask Him that He lets us die upon your Sunna, and that He gathers us [on the day of reckoning] among your group, and allows us to get to your Hawdh and drink from your bowl without disgrace or regret.
              Intercession intercession, o Messenger of Allah (al-Shafa'a al-Shafa'a, ya Rasulallah)! โ€“ he (the visitor) should say this thrice -, { โ€œOur Lord, forgive us and those of our brothers who preceded us in faithโ€ } [59:10] [till the end of] the Ayah.
              [Then] he should deliver the greeting of those who have told him to do so by saying: โ€˜Peace be upon you, o Messenger of Allah, from Fulan bin Fulan, he seeks intercession through you unto your Lord, so intercede for him and for all believersโ€˜.

              - end of quote -


              - From the Shafi'i Fiqh book al-Majmu' [by Imam al-Nawawi (d. 676 AH)]:

              ุซู… ูŠุฑุฌุน ุฅู„ู‰ ู…ูˆู‚ูู‡ ุงู„ุฃูˆู„ ู‚ุจุงู„ุฉ ูˆุฌู‡ ุฑุณูˆู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ูˆูŠุชูˆุณู„ ุจู‡ ููŠ ุญู‚ ู†ูุณู‡ ุŒ ูˆูŠุณุชุดูุน ุจู‡ ุฅู„ู‰ ุฑุจู‡ ุณุจุญุงู†ู‡ ูˆุชุนุงู„ู‰ ุŒ ูˆู…ู† ุฃุญุณู† ู…ุง ูŠู‚ูˆู„ ู…ุง ุญูƒุงู‡ ุงู„ู…ุงูˆุฑุฏูŠ ูˆุงู„ู‚ุงุถูŠ ุฃุจูˆ ุงู„ุทูŠุจ ูˆุณุงุฆุฑ ุฃุตุญุงุจู†ุง ุนู† ุงู„ุนุชุจูŠ ู…ุณุชุญุณู†ูŠู† ู„ู‡ ู‚ุงู„ : โ€ ูƒู†ุช ุฌุงู„ุณุง ุนู†ุฏ ู‚ุจุฑ ุฑุณูˆู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ูุฌุงุก ุฃุนุฑุงุจูŠ ูู‚ุงู„ : ุงู„ุณู„ุงู… ุนู„ูŠูƒ ูŠุง ุฑุณูˆู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุณู…ุนุช ุงู„ู„ู‡ ูŠู‚ูˆู„ ( { ูˆู„ูˆ ุฃู†ู‡ู… ุฅุฐ ุธู„ู…ูˆุง ุฃู†ูุณู‡ู… ุฌุงุกูˆูƒ ูุงุณุชุบูุฑูˆุง ุงู„ู„ู‡ ูˆุงุณุชุบูุฑ ู„ู‡ู… ุงู„ุฑุณูˆู„ ู„ูˆุฌุฏูˆุง ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุชูˆุงุจุง ุฑุญูŠู…ุง } ) ูˆู‚ุฏ ุฌุฆุชูƒ ู…ุณุชุบูุฑุง ู…ู† ุฐู†ุจูŠ ู…ุณุชุดูุนุง ุจูƒ ุฅู„ู‰ ุฑุจูŠ ุซู… ุฃู†ุดุฃ ูŠู‚ูˆู„ :
              ูŠุง ุฎูŠุฑ ู…ู† ุฏูู†ุช ุจุงู„ู‚ุงุน ุฃุนุธู…ู‡ *** ูุทุงุจ ู…ู† ุทูŠุจู‡ู† ุงู„ู‚ุงุน ูˆุงู„ุฃูƒู…
              ู†ูุณูŠ ุงู„ูุฏุงุก ู„ู‚ุจุฑ ุฃู†ุช ุณุงูƒู†ู‡ *** ููŠู‡ ุงู„ุนูุงู ูˆููŠู‡ ุงู„ุฌูˆุฏ ูˆุงู„ูƒุฑู…
              ุซู… ุงู†ุตุฑู ูุญู…ู„ุชู†ูŠ ุนูŠู†ุงูŠ ูุฑุฃูŠุช ุงู„ู†ุจูŠ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ููŠ ุงู„ู†ูˆู… ูู‚ุงู„ : โ€ ูŠุง ุนุชุจูŠ ุงู„ุญู‚ ุงู„ุฃุนุฑุงุจูŠ ูุจุดุฑู‡ ุจุฃู† ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุชุนุงู„ู‰ ู‚ุฏ ุบูุฑ ู„ู‡

              Then he (i.e. the one visiting the grave of the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) should return to his original position facing the Messenger of Allah โ€“ sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, and he should make him a mean for himself and seek intercession through him unto his Lord subhanahu wa taโ€™ala.
              And the best what can be said [here] is what al-Mawardi (d. 448 AH) and al-Qadhi Abu al-Tayyib (d. 450 AH) and the rest of our [Shafiโ€™i] companions narrated from al-'Utbi and they regarded it as good [to do the same].
              [Al-'Utbi] said: As I was sitting by the grave of the Prophet โ€“ sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, a Beduin Arab came and said: โ€œPeace be upon you, O Messenger of Allah! I have heard Allah saying: { If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allahโ€™s forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful } [4:64], so I have come to you asking forgiveness for my sin, seeking your intercession with my Lord.โ€ Then he began to recite poetry:

              O best of those whose bones are buried in the deep earth,
              And from whose fragrance the depth and the height have become sweet,
              May I be the ransom for a grave which thou inhabit,
              And in which are found purity, bounty and munificence!

              Then he left, and I dozed and saw the Prophet โ€“ sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam โ€“ in my sleep. He said to me: โ€œO 'Utbi, run after the Beduin and give him glad tidings that Allah has forgiven him.โ€

              - end of quote -


              - From the Maliki Fiqh book al-Qawanin al-Fiqhiyya [by Imam Ibn Juzayy (d. 741 AH)]:

              ูŠู†ุจุบูŠ ู„ู…ู† ุญุฌ ุฃู† ูŠู‚ุตุฏ ุงู„ู…ุฏูŠู†ุฉ ููŠุฏุฎู„ ู…ุณุฌุฏ ุงู„ู†ุจูŠ - ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… - ููŠุตู„ูŠ ููŠู‡ ูˆูŠุณู„ู… ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ู†ุจูŠ - ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… - ูˆุนู„ู‰ ุถุฌูŠุนูŠู‡ ุฃุจูŠ ุจูƒุฑ ูˆุนู…ุฑ ุฑุถูŠ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู†ู‡ู…ุง ูˆูŠุชุดูุน ุจู‡ ุฅู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ูˆูŠุตู„ูŠ ุจูŠู† ุงู„ู‚ุจุฑ ูˆุงู„ู…ู†ุจุฑ ูˆูŠูˆุฏุน ุงู„ู†ุจูŠ - ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… - ุฅุฐุง ุฎุฑุฌ ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ุฏูŠู†ุฉ

              The one performing Hajj should also go to Madina [al-Munawwara]: He then should enter the Prophetic Mosque - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and then pray therein and greet the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and his two close companions Abu Bakr and 'Umar - may Allah be pleased with them - and [he should] seek his intercession unto Allah and pray between the grave and the Minbar and he should say farewell to the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - when leaving Madina.
              - end of quote -


              - From the Hanbali Fiqh book al-Mughni [by Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH)]:

              ุงู„ู„ู‡ู… ุฅู†ูƒ ู‚ู„ุช ูˆู‚ูˆู„ูƒ ุงู„ุญู‚ : { ูˆู„ูˆ ุฃู†ู‡ู… ุฅุฐ ุธู„ู…ูˆุง ุฃู†ูุณู‡ู… ุฌุงุกูˆูƒ ูุงุณุชุบูุฑูˆุง ุงู„ู„ู‡ ูˆุงุณุชุบูุฑ ู„ู‡ู… ุงู„ุฑุณูˆู„ู„ูˆุฌุฏูˆุง ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุชูˆุงุจุง ุฑุญูŠู…ุง } . ูˆู‚ุฏ ุฃุชูŠุชูƒ ู…ุณุชุบูุฑุง ู…ู† ุฐู†ูˆุจูŠ ุŒ ู…ุณุชุดูุนุง ุจูƒ ุฅู„ู‰ ุฑุจูŠ ุŒ ูุฃุณุฃู„ูƒ ูŠุง ุฑุจ ุฃู†ุชูˆุฌุจ ู„ูŠ ุงู„ู…ุบูุฑุฉ ุŒ ูƒู…ุง ุฃูˆุฌุจุชู‡ุง ู„ู…ู† ุฃุชุงู‡ ููŠ ุญูŠุงุชู‡ ุŒ ุงู„ู„ู‡ู… ุงุฌุนู„ู‡ ุฃูˆู„ ุงู„ุดุงูุนูŠู†

              O Allah, You spoke and your saying is the truth: { If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allahโ€™s forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful } [4:64].
              So Iโ€™ve come to you, asking [my Lord] for forgiveness for my sin and seeking intercession with you unto my Lord.
              So I ask you, o Lord, that you grant me forgiveness just like you granted it to the one who came to him during his life. O Allah, make him the first of intercessors.

              - end of quote -
              Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 05-03-20, 07:15 PM.

              Comment


              • #82
                Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                ...Itโ€˜s you whoโ€˜s trying to build up a dichotomy between "asking Allah directly vs asking for intercession" and not me...
                I said there's a difference but you're saying they are the same.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                  It's not a false claim, we have Pakistani Hanafis on this very forum who openly support the Pak/US alliance in the so-called war on terror. They cheer when their so-called brothers and sisters are killed in airstrikes. They see those that support their people, our people, against the US led war, where countless women and children have been killed indiscriminately, as extremists. They say they are Wahhabis or influenced by Wahhabis. I mean, the Hanafis of Afghanistan literally hosted al-Qaida and 'Salafis' went and fought alongside the Hanafis of Afghanistan against the Russians.

                  In the west, or the UK at least, who are most vocal supporters of the 'Taliban' in Afghanistan? Many Muslims speak against the invasion but very few actually go further to say they support the Taliban. Yes, it's mainly 'Salafi-Jihadis.'

                  As for my crocodile tears, see above. I have always spoken for the Hanafis of Afghanistan. I don't recall seeing you post about them in your five years here. I've even spoken more for Iraq than you have on here, and you're from there!

                  To conclude, there is an alliance based on brotherhood despite differing schools of thought and this angers you. You can't accept it and want to drive a sectarian wedge between Muslims... and then blame Wahhabis for it.
                  Look at this guy! He was trying to convince me that "Salafi Jihadis" are an extreme and fringe group among "Salafis" and now he's indirectly praising them! Hypocrisy at its finest!

                  And: The Hanafis of Afghanistan had simply Husn al-Dhann towards those foreign fighters (I used to have this too... surprise surprise!), but how could they know that these SJs will use their country behind their backs in order to invite the Americans to occupy their country!

                  By the way: Don't think you're doing anything heroic by posting things regarding Afghanistan or Iraq on this forum.
                  And: You don't know me in real life, so that you judge me based upon whether I have written on these countries on this forum or not. I won't say more than that.

                  And all of these issues above are actually secondary issues in our discussion! Concentrate on the primary issue, which is the Najdi accusation of "grave worship" towards other Muslims and whether this accusation is justified or not.

                  I'm waiting for your HONEST response to my question:
                  Is that which 'Abdullah bin Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1244 AH) said justified according to you or not?:


                  Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                  This is the statement of 'Abdullah, one of the spiritual leaders of the Najdis and the son of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab:

                  ูุฅู† ู‚ุงู„ ู‚ุงุฆู„ ู…ู†ูุฑ ุนู† ู‚ุจูˆู„ ุงู„ุญู‚ ูˆุงู„ุฅุฐุนุงู† ู„ู‡ : ูŠู„ุฒู… ู…ู† ุชู‚ุฑูŠุฑูƒู…ุŒ ูˆู‚ุทุนูƒู… ููŠ ุฃู† ู…ู† ู‚ุงู„ ูŠุง ุฑุณูˆู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ุŒ ุฃุณุฃู„ูƒ ุงู„ุดูุงุนุฉ : ุฃู†ู‡ ู…ุดุฑูƒ ู…ู‡ุฏุฑ ุงู„ุฏู… ุ› ุฃู† ูŠู‚ุงู„ ุจูƒูุฑ ุบุงู„ุจ ุงู„ุฃู…ุฉ ุŒ ูˆู„ุง ุณูŠู…ุง ุงู„ู…ุชุฃุฎุฑูŠู†ุŒ ู„ุชุตุฑูŠุญ ุนู„ู…ุงุฆู‡ู… ุงู„ู…ุนุชุจุฑูŠู† : ุฃู† ุฐู„ูƒ ู…ู†ุฏูˆุจุŒ ูˆุดู†ูˆุง ุงู„ุบุงุฑุฉ ุนู„ู‰ ู…ู† ุฎุงู„ู ููŠ ุฐู„ูƒ ! ู‚ู„ุช : ู„ุง ูŠู„ุฒู…ุŒ ู„ุฃู† ู„ุงุฒู… ุงู„ู…ุฐู‡ุจ ู„ูŠุณ ุจู…ุฐู‡ุจุŒ ูƒู…ุง ู‡ูˆ ู…ู‚ุฑุฑุŒ ูˆู…ุซู„ ุฐู„ูƒ : ู„ุง ูŠู„ุฒู… ุฃู† ู†ูƒูˆู† ู…ุฌุณู…ุฉุŒ ูˆุฅู† ู‚ู„ู†ุง ุจุฌู‡ุฉ ุงู„ุนู„ูˆุŒ ูƒู…ุง ูˆุฑุฏ ุงู„ุญุฏูŠุซ ุจุฐู„ูƒ .ูˆู†ุญู† ู†ู‚ูˆู„ ููŠู…ู† ู…ุงุช : ุชู„ูƒ ุฃู…ุฉ ู‚ุฏ ุฎู„ุช ุ› ูˆู„ุง ู†ูƒูุฑ ุฅู„ุง ู…ู† ุจู„ุบุชู‡ ุฏุนูˆุชู†ุง ู„ู„ุญู‚ุŒ ูˆูˆุถุญุช ู„ู‡ ุงู„ู…ุญุฌุฉุŒ ูˆู‚ุงู…ุช ุนู„ูŠู‡ ุงู„ุญุฌุฉุŒ ูˆุฃุตุฑ ู…ุณุชูƒุจุฑุงู‹ ู…ุนุงู†ุฏุงู‹ุŒ ูƒุบุงู„ุจ ู…ู† ู†ู‚ุงุชู„ู‡ู… ุงู„ูŠูˆู…ุŒ ูŠุตุฑูˆู† ุนู„ู‰ ุฐู„ูƒ ุงู„ุฅุดุฑุงูƒุŒ ูˆูŠู…ุชู†ุนูˆู† ู…ู† ูุนู„ ุงู„ูˆุงุฌุจุงุชุŒ ูˆูŠุชุธุงู‡ุฑูˆู† ุจุฃูุนุงู„ ุงู„ูƒุจุงุฆุฑุŒ ุงู„ู…ุญุฑู…ุงุช ุ› ูˆุบูŠุฑ ุงู„ุบุงู„ุจ : ุฅู†ู…ุง ู†ู‚ุงุชู„ู‡ ู„ู…ู†ุงุตุฑุชู‡ ู…ู† ู‡ุฐู‡ ุญุงู„ู‡ุŒ ูˆุฑุถุงู‡ ุจู‡ุŒ ูˆู„ุชูƒุซูŠุฑ ุณูˆุงุฏ ู…ู† ุฐูƒุฑุŒ ูˆุงู„ุชุฃู„ูŠุจ ู…ุนู‡ุŒ ูู„ู‡ ุญูŠู†ุฆุฐ ุญูƒู…ู‡ ููŠ ู‚ุชุงู„ู‡

                  If someone - trying to cause [a feeling of] opposition against accepting the truth and submission to it - says:
                  Your statement and certain assertion that the one who says "O Messenger of Allah, I ask for your intercession" is a polytheist whose blood is to be spilled, necessitates that one affirms the disbelief of the majority of the [Islamic] nation (Umma), especially the later ones [from among them], because their relied upon scholars have said that this is allowed and attacked the one who opposed in this [issue].
                  I say: This is not necessitated, because that which a statement necessitates is not the statement itself (Lazim al-Madhhab laysa bi Madhhab) as it is established and this is just like itโ€˜s not necessary for us to be Mujassima just because we affirm the direction of highness (for Allah ta'ala) as the narration came regarding it.
                  We say regarding the one who has [already] died: { These were a nation that have passed away } [2:134] and we do not declare anyone to be a disbeliever except the one whom our call to truth has reached and the argument has become obvious to him and the proof has been established upon him and [thereafter] he [still] arrogantly and stubbornly insists [upon doing this] like the majority we fight today:
                  They insist on this committing of polytheism (Ishrak)
                  and stay away from fulfilling the obligations and commit major sins and [other] sins.
                  As for the non-majority: We fight them for supporting the one whose state is like that and are pleased with them and make the group of those mentioned [before] larger and are allied to them, then the ruling of fighting against them applies to them also.

                  - end of quote -

                  The above quote is taken from the Wahhabi book al-Durar al-Saniyya (compilation of the statements of the Najdis).
                  Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 05-03-20, 09:21 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                    Look at this guy! He was trying to convince me that "Salafi Jihadis" are an extreme and fringe group among "Salafis" and now he's indirectly praising them! Hypocrisy at its finest!...
                    It's not praise per se, I'm pointing out how you claiming that 'Salafi-Jihadis' (I wrote it in quotes) would kill the Taliban when they have supported them vocally - even more so than their supposed 'Sunni' brothers. You really are hellbent on creating division and fitnah where is there none. Sectarianism to the core.

                    And: The Hanafis of Afghanistan had simply Husn al-Dhann towards those foreign fighters (I used to have this too... surprise surprise!), but how could they know that these SJs will use their country behind their backs in order to invite the Americans to occupy their country!...
                    Again, misleading propaganda in order to try and cause division.

                    ...By the way: Don't think you're doing anything heroic by posting things regarding Afghanistan or Iraq on this forum.
                    And: You don't know me in real life, so that you judge me based upon whether I have written on these countries on this forum or not. I won't say more than that.
                    I didn't claim it was heroic... I just rubbished your claims that I don't care for them. You say this whilst dropping a humble-brag and being ambiguous to give an air of mystery. You disparage other's efforts and then insinuate that you do more but keep it secret is laughable. You publicise your attacks on Muslims but keep your attacks on kufaar secret... seems legit.

                    ...And all of these issues above are actually secondary issues in our discussion! Concentrate on the primary issue, which is the Najdi accusation of "grave worship" towards other Muslims and whether this accusation is justified or not...
                    Yeah, you don't have a leg to stand on here so it's best you move on.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                      I didn't claim it was heroic... I just rubbished your claims that I don't care for them. You say this whilst dropping a humble-brag and being ambiguous to give an air of mystery. You disparage other's efforts and then insinuate that you do more but keep it secret is laughable. You publicise your attacks on Muslims but keep your attacks on kufaar secret... seems legit.
                      I've written much in other forums [regarding these type of issues and in different languages], but these forums do not exist anymore... anyways what is important is real life and not some empty statements and crocodile tears by people living comforably in the West having 24 hours electricity and clean water and paying the disbelievers taxes and making their economies stronger so that they can continue to oppress us more and then after all of this being fans of "Salafis" (who are one of the most destructive groups in this Umma) and SJs, whose rise is only a symptom of our weak state.

                      I'm still waiting for your reply to my question. Is it that difficult to say that what this Najdi claimed is not justified?!
                      Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 05-03-20, 10:06 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                        I've written much in other forums [regarding these type of issues and in different languages], but these forums do not exist anymore... anyways what is important is real life and not some empty statements and crocodile tears by people living comforably in the West having 24 hours electricity and clean water and paying the disbelievers taxes and making their economies stronger so that they can continue to oppress us more and then after all of this being fans of "Salafis" and SJs...
                        I somewhat agree, but you only mentioned 'Salafis' and 'SJ' and have remained silent on the majority which are 'Sunnis' who also live in the west. Do you put everyone in the same boat or do the 'Sunnis' have some special dispensation from you for paying taxes in the west, and having electricity and water?

                        Incidentally, I also encourage people to make Hijrah to Muslim lands. I've never seen you do that on here. Don't tell me, you do it secretly using other accounts. -_-

                        Do you have anything to say about takfeer of 'Hanafi Maturidis' on other 'Hanafi Maturidis' (the actual topic of the thread) or how 'Hanafi Maturidis' cheer the indiscriminate killing of other 'Hanafi Maturidis' by the US/Pak governments other than you think I'm lying about it?

                        You are like the Iraqi version of Imran1976.

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Every Muslim should try to live among the people of Islam.
                          But I wonโ€˜t comment any further until you start being a man a stop running away from answering my question:

                          Is that which the Najdi 'Abdullah bin Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1244 AH) said justified? Do you support it?

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                            Is that which the Najdi 'Abdullah bin Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1244 AH) said justified? Do you support it?
                            I guess it's very difficult to disassociate oneself from an OPEN CALL TO FIGHT OTHER MUSLIMS and CLAIMING THAT EVERYONE HAS TO ACCEPT WHAT ONE CAME WITH OTHERWISE HE BECOMES A DISBELIEVER as long as it's some Najdi guy revered by "Salafis".
                            One quote ALONE destroyed all of the empty claims of the opponent, who claims that the Najdi way is not build upon mass-Takfir and mass-killing and that the praise of "Salafis" of those Najdis by calling them "al-A`imma al-Najdiyya" ("the Najdi Imams") - and 'Abdullah bin Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1244 AH) is one of them according to them - does not make them extreme, because the Najdis are not guilty of these issues!
                            This is how weak the claims of the opponent are to the degree that one statement was enough to bring him down to his knees and silence him!!


                            Anyways let's forget about this innovator who is afraid to answer and let's watch a video which is very much on-topic:

                            Deobandi Students Meet Sh Asrar Rashid in South Africa



                            I repeat: Taqwiyatul Iman is the starting point of the division in the subcontinent and Husam al-Haramyan is only a reaction. One may disagree with the harshness of the leader of the Barelvis (i.e. the Shaykh Ahmad Ridha Khan (d. 1340 AH)) and some of his views, but the actual problem started with Taqwiyatul Iman and praising it!
                            Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 06-03-20, 09:40 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              I wonder what would happen if the ashairah put one tenth of the effort they do refuting "wahabis" into dawah

                              Cant remember ever seeing on this site an ashari give dawah it's just wahabi this and wahabi that



                              "My servants, you who have transgressed against yourselves, do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Truly Allah forgives all wrong actions. He is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Merciful." (Surat az-Zumar: 53)

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Originally posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
                                I wonder what would happen if the ashairah put one tenth of the effort they do refuting "wahabis" into dawah

                                Cant remember ever seeing on this site an ashari give dawah it's just wahabi this and wahabi that


                                If I didn't know any better, I'd think that they spent their whole time doing takfeer....of those people that they claim spend their whole time doing takfeer...
                                "Yaa Allah grant me victory, or make me die Shaheed"

                                Remember how the Unbelievers plotted against thee, to keep thee in bonds, or slay thee, or get thee out (of thy home). They plot and plan, and Allah too plans; but the best of planners is Allah.
                                (surah al-anfal v.30)

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