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A Critique of Husam al-Haramayn: How a fatwa split the Ummah

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

    I believe that calling on someone who has passed away to make dua for you is shirk. Where does that fit in?
    This is a very problematic claim to say at least and this from the following angles:

    - The Islamic texts - Ayat, Ahadith and Athar - contain proofs that support asking for the intercession of our beloved Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - unto his Lord, which is the same as asking for his supplication. From among those proofs is the statement of Allah ta'ala:

    { وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُوۤاْ أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَآءُوكَ فَٱسْتَغْفَرُواْ ٱللَّهَ وَٱسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ ٱلرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُواْ ٱللَّهَ تَوَّاباً رَّحِيماً }

    { If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah’s forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful }

    [4:64]

    Note that the wording of the Aya is general, so it's not allowed to specify it to the time before the death of our beloved Prophet, sallallahu 'alayi wa sallam.
    The scholars of Tafsir and Fiqh regarded this Aya to be general in meaning and this should be enough to know its ruling!

    - The classical books of Fiqh even recommend seeking the intercession of al-Mustafa - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - when visiting his blessed grave!

    - Asking someone to supplicate for you indicates quite obviously that one believes that this person is a creation of Allah ta'ala and has no divine attributes. So how is it after this allowed to ignore this and act as if one is worshipping the one that one asks for supplication?

    - It's proven that the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is alive in his grave and is informed of the state and deeds of his Umma and that he hears the greeting of the one who greets him and that he supplicates for his Umma. To deny this and to act as if this is somehow "impossible" is atheism in itself!

    - No one from among the classical scholars - including Ibn Taymiyya - has regarded this as polytheism. The Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) disallowed it and claimed it to be an innovation and something that may lead to polytheism and was criticized for this by the scholars of his time and those after.
    The Najdis were the first to make Takfir based upon this issue and Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) - the spiritual leader of the Najdis - even accused the scholars of his time of "praising polytheism" (Madh al-Shirk!) because of this issue. The Najdis killed muslims (!) because of this issue - which is not even a sin! - and this is from the way of the worst of the Khawarij,
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 03-03-20, 08:59 PM.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
      - The classical books of Fiqh even recommend seeking the intercession of al-Mustafa - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - when visiting his blessed grave!
      - From the Hanafi Fiqh book al-Ikhtiyar li Ta'lil al-Mukhtar [by Imam al-Mawsilli (d. 683 AH)]:

      وقد قال الله تعالى : ( ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاءوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا اللهتوابا رحيما ) وقد جئناك ظالمين لأنفسنا ، مستغفرين لذنوبنا ، فاشفع لنا إلى ربك ، وأسأله أن يميتناعلى سنتك ، وأن يحشرنا في زمرتك ، وأن يوردنا حوضك ، وأن يسقينا كأسك غير خزايا ولا نادمين، الشفاعة الشفاعة يا رسول الله ، يقولها ثلاثا : ( ربنا اغفر لنا ولإخواننا الذين سبقونا بالإيمان )الآية .ويبلغه سلام من أوصاه فيقول : السلام عليك يا رسول الله من فلان بن فلان ، يستشفع بك إلىربك فاشفع له ولجميع المسلمين

      Allah ta'ala says: { If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah’s forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful } [4:64].
      So we’ve come to you, having wronged ourselves and asking [Allah] for forgiveness regarding our sins, so intercede for us to your Lord and ask Him that He lets us die upon your Sunna, and that He gathers us [on the day of reckoning] among your group, and allows us to get to your Hawdh and drink from your bowl without disgrace or regret.
      Intercession intercession, o Messenger of Allah (al-Shafa'a al-Shafa'a, ya Rasulallah)! – he (the visitor) should say this thrice -, { “Our Lord, forgive us and those of our brothers who preceded us in faith” } [59:10] [till the end of] the Ayah.
      [Then] he should deliver the greeting of those who have told him to do so by saying: ‘Peace be upon you, o Messenger of Allah, from Fulan bin Fulan, he seeks intercession through you unto your Lord, so intercede for him and for all believers‘.

      - end of quote -


      - From the Shafi'i Fiqh book al-Majmu' [by Imam al-Nawawi (d. 676 AH)]:

      ثم يرجع إلى موقفه الأول قبالة وجه رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم ويتوسل به في حق نفسه ، ويستشفع به إلى ربه سبحانه وتعالى ، ومن أحسن ما يقول ما حكاه الماوردي والقاضي أبو الطيب وسائر أصحابنا عن العتبي مستحسنين له قال : ” كنت جالسا عند قبر رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم فجاء أعرابي فقال : السلام عليك يا رسول الله سمعت الله يقول ( { ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاءوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا الله توابا رحيما } ) وقد جئتك مستغفرا من ذنبي مستشفعا بك إلى ربي ثم أنشأ يقول :
      يا خير من دفنت بالقاع أعظمه *** فطاب من طيبهن القاع والأكم
      نفسي الفداء لقبر أنت ساكنه *** فيه العفاف وفيه الجود والكرم
      ثم انصرف فحملتني عيناي فرأيت النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم في النوم فقال : ” يا عتبي الحق الأعرابي فبشره بأن الله تعالى قد غفر له

      Then he (i.e. the one visiting the grave of the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) should return to his original position facing the Messenger of Allah – sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, and he should make him a mean for himself and seek intercession through him unto his Lord subhanahu wa ta’ala.
      And the best what can be said [here] is what al-Mawardi (d. 448 AH) and al-Qadhi Abu al-Tayyib (d. 450 AH) and the rest of our [Shafi’i] companions narrated from al-'Utbi and they regarded it as good [to do the same].
      [Al-'Utbi] said: As I was sitting by the grave of the Prophet – sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, a Beduin Arab came and said: “Peace be upon you, O Messenger of Allah! I have heard Allah saying: { If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah’s forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful } [4:64], so I have come to you asking forgiveness for my sin, seeking your intercession with my Lord.” Then he began to recite poetry:

      O best of those whose bones are buried in the deep earth,
      And from whose fragrance the depth and the height have become sweet,
      May I be the ransom for a grave which thou inhabit,
      And in which are found purity, bounty and munificence!

      Then he left, and I dozed and saw the Prophet – sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam – in my sleep. He said to me: “O 'Utbi, run after the Beduin and give him glad tidings that Allah has forgiven him.”

      - end of quote -


      - From the Maliki Fiqh book al-Qawanin al-Fiqhiyya [by Imam Ibn Juzayy (d. 741 AH)]:

      ينبغي لمن حج أن يقصد المدينة فيدخل مسجد النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - فيصلي فيه ويسلم على النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - وعلى ضجيعيه أبي بكر وعمر رضي الله عنهما ويتشفع به إلى الله ويصلي بين القبر والمنبر ويودع النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم - إذا خرج من المدينة

      The one performing Hajj should also go to Madina [al-Munawwara]: He then should enter the Prophetic Mosque - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and then pray therein and greet the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and his two close companions Abu Bakr and 'Umar - may Allah be pleased with them - and [he should] seek his intercession unto Allah and pray between the grave and the Minbar and he should say farewell to the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - when leaving Madina.
      - end of quote -


      - From the Hanbali Fiqh book al-Mughni [by Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH)]:

      اللهم إنك قلت وقولك الحق : { ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاءوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهم الرسوللوجدوا الله توابا رحيما } . وقد أتيتك مستغفرا من ذنوبي ، مستشفعا بك إلى ربي ، فأسألك يا رب أنتوجب لي المغفرة ، كما أوجبتها لمن أتاه في حياته ، اللهم اجعله أول الشافعين

      O Allah, You spoke and your saying is the truth: { If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah’s forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful } [4:64].
      So I’ve come to you, asking [my Lord] for forgiveness for my sin and seeking intercession with you unto my Lord.
      So I ask you, o Lord, that you grant me forgiveness just like you granted it to the one who came to him during his life. O Allah, make him the first of intercessors.

      - end of quote -
      Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 03-03-20, 09:20 PM.

      Comment


      • #63
        [QUOTE=Abu Sulayman;n1266767

        The people who ascribe themselves to the Hanafi Maturidi way in the Subcontinent are usually either Barelvis (which are the majority as far as I know) or Deobandis and the scholars of both groups disallow prostration to other than Allah ta'ala and also magic. So what's the point here?...[/QUOTE]The point is that it is widespread in their communities. Why don't they address it?

        ...- As for magic: Not all forms of magic constitute disbelief and the Fuqaha` have mentioned a Tafsil in its ruling: The magic that contain disbelief in wording (by cursing the Messengers or Prophets for example) or in beliefs (by attributing real influence to the stars or attributing them any other quality of lordship) or in actions (by disrespecting the book of Allah for example) is what constitutes disbelief, otherwise it's not disbelief. (Refer to al-Furuq by Imam al-Qarafi (d. 684 AH) and other Fiqh books for more informations.)
        As for the people who knowingly go to magicians: They exist everywhere and they are simply evil.
        But again: How is that the fault of Hanafi Maturidi scholars?...
        I believe all forms constitute disbelief.

        I have come across a book by renowned Hanafi Maturidi scholar, Ashraf Ali Thanvi, called Amal-e-Qurani (Urdu) which promotes the use of magic and amulets.

        - As for amulets: I really hope for you that you're not intending those who contain Ayat from the Qur`an al-karim or supplications with correct wordings only, because in this case the problem is with you and not the one wearing it with the correct intention.
        If it however contains Kufri statements or magic or what is similar to it, then the ruling obviously differs and likewise is the case if one has wrong beliefs.
        See above.



        - Going to the graves of the righteous to supplicate to Allah ta'ala [and using them in Tawassul] is something done by the scholars of this Umma, so what will you say regarding them?
        - As for offering some kind of charity: It depends on the intention and the beliefs and this differentiation is even done by the Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH), so why are you hellbent on rushing towards Takfir and finding the worst possible interpretation for every action done by a Muslim? Believe me if one does the same with your actions, statements or beliefs, one could also easily reach to the degree of [performing] Takfir [upon you].
        - Touching a grave or kissing it goes against the etiquette of visitation and is disliked (as mentioned by the Fuqaha`!), but to call it as polytheism is nothing but pure extremism.
        Do you believe touching the grave of a righteous person(i.e. the headstone or structure - because they are never simple graves) can cure diseases and illnesses... and is from the Sunnah?


        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

          This is a very problematic claim to say at least and this from the following angles:

          - The Islamic texts - Ayat, Ahadith and Athar - contain proofs that support asking for the intercession of our beloved Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - unto his Lord, which is the same as asking for his supplication. From among those proofs is the statement of Allah ta'ala:

          { وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُوۤاْ أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَآءُوكَ فَٱسْتَغْفَرُواْ ٱللَّهَ وَٱسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ ٱلرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُواْ ٱللَّهَ تَوَّاباً رَّحِيماً }

          { If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah’s forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful }

          [4:64]

          Note that the wording of the Aya is general, so it's not allowed to specify it to the time before the death of our beloved Prophet, sallallahu 'alayi wa sallam.
          The scholars of Tafsir and Fiqh regarded this Aya to be general in meaning and this should be enough to know its ruling!

          - The classical books of Fiqh even recommend seeking the intercession of al-Mustafa - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - when visiting his blessed grave!

          - Asking someone to supplicate for you indicates quite obviously that one believes that this person is a creation of Allah ta'ala and has no divine attributes. So how is it after this allowed to ignore this and act as if one is worshipping the one that one asks for supplication?

          - It's proven that the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is alive in his grave and is informed of the state and deeds of his Umma and that he hears the greeting of the one who greets him and that he supplicates for his Umma. To deny this and to act as if this is somehow "impossible" is atheism in itself!

          - No one from among the classical scholars - including Ibn Taymiyya - has regarded this as polytheism. The Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) disallowed it and claimed it to be an innovation and something that may lead to polytheism and was criticized for this by the scholars of his time and those after.
          The Najdis were the first to make Takfir based upon this issue and Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) - the spiritual leader of the Najdis - even accused the scholars of his time of "praising polytheism" (Madh al-Shirk!) because of this issue. The Najdis killed muslims (!) because of this issue - which is not even a sin! - and this is from the way of the worst of the Khawarij,
          Nope.

          If this was allowed then the messenger of Allah would have advised us to do it and ALL the companions would have made dua in that way ALL the time.

          Who doesn't want the intercession of the messenger of Allah ? Surely it is better to have his intercession than to make dua to Allah directly. Why don't ALL duas from the Sunnah seek intercession?

          Note: I am making a distinction between the Prophet and anyone else. Asking some random dude who has passed away for anything is quite silly really.

          Comment


          • #65
            I’m a non-Muslim. I need to ask why did allah allow prostration to people in a non-religious context in the past but now made it haram and a major sin? Was it to prevent shirk? Yusuf was allowed to venerate his brother.

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
              I believe all forms constitute disbelief.
              Well, you're free to believe what you want, but the point here is:

              Even in extreme issues like prostration and magic the classical scholars made a differentiation (a part of their statements has already been quoted), which actually is more than enough to prove my point that the Najdis [and thereafter the "Salafis"] differ very greatly with the mindset and understanding of the classical scholars.
              And if they made a differentiation in extreme issues, then what about those issues - which were disallowed (but not from the major sins) or only disliked! - for which the Najdis and even many "Salafis" call many Muslims as "polytheists" or "apostates" which are much less than those two extreme issues?
              And what about those issues - which are not even a sin and maybe even recommended in some of their forms! - for which the Najdis and the "Salafis" accuse the Muslims and their scholars of "polytheism"?

              I remember that I read in a relied upon Hanbali 'Aqida or Fiqh book that making Takfir upon a Muslim and believing him to be a disbeliever constitutes disbelief in itself. This would mean that the Najdis were actually swimming in disbelief with all their accusations against other Muslims.

              Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

              Nope.

              If this was allowed then the messenger of Allah would have advised us to do it and ALL the companions would have made dua in that way ALL the time.

              Who doesn't want the intercession of the messenger of Allah ? Surely it is better to have his intercession than to make dua to Allah directly. Why don't ALL duas from the Sunnah seek intercession?

              Note: I am making a distinction between the Prophet and anyone else. Asking some random dude who has passed away for anything is quite silly really.
              Well there is actually proof that our beloved Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - adviced to make a supplication where he's also addressed and where one turns to Allah ta'ala through him and its authenticity is to such a degree that not even "Salafis" are able to reject it. The wording of the report is general and it is also understood as such by the companion who reported it, because he applied it after the death of our beloved Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and teached it (!) to others and the early Muslims after him used to use this supplication also. The scholars of Hadith - the early ones included! - mentioned this narration in those chapters which apply to all times! Even the Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH), who was actually trying hardly to disallow this issue had to admit in his Qa'ida al-Jalila that this type of supplications were used by the Salaf, so what can be said after that?!

              But before I mention more regarding the proofs in support of addressing the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and turning to Allah ta'ala through him or to ask for his supplication and intercession, let us first set the records straight:

              You say "if this was allowed...":
              Is this issue one of "allowed or disallowed"? If that is the case (which is true in reality!), then you would have to admit that all these accusations of polytheism made by the Najdis and the "Salafis" against other Muslims because of this very issue was wrong and that the killing committed by the Najdis because of this issue was a major crime.

              If you however say it's an issue of "Tawhid or Shirk", then it's upon you to prove that's it's clear Shirk and also how so many classical scholars have explicitly recommended seeking intercession with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - when visiting his blessed grave. Then you've also to explain how the Shari'a does not get invalidated, while the ones who transmitted it (i.e. the scholars) were - in your claim at least - either openly "supporters of polytheism" or at least "silent regarding polytheism".

              Then tell us who are your predecessors for your understanding?
              Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 04-03-20, 04:53 PM.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                Well, you're free to believe what you want...
                The point is that it is widespread in their communities. Why don't they address it?...
                ...Do you believe touching the grave of a righteous person(i.e. the headstone or structure - because they are never simple graves) can cure diseases and illnesses... and is from the Sunnah?
                ...Who doesn't want the intercession of the messenger of Allah ? Surely it is better to have his intercession than to make dua to Allah directly. Why don't ALL duas from the Sunnah seek intercession?...
                Please address these questions.

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                  Please address these questions.
                  Regarding your claim that prostration to other than Allah ta'ala is widespread in the Subcontinent and your claim of the Hanafi Maturidi scholars not addressing this:

                  Sorry, but I do not trust your claims, especially when I have seen their Fatawa warning against doing anything like this.
                  And: I know that the "Salafis" from the Middle East make all kind of wrong accusations against other Muslims and sometimes even openly lie against scholars, so I can't just take your claims as granted.
                  Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) even claimed that most of the people of Hijaz did not believe in the resurrection after death and we know with certainty that he was lying with this claim.


                  As for the issue of touching graves:
                  I believe that touching or kissing the grave of a righteous person is something that goes against the etiquette of visitation and is disliked (as already mentioned before). As for making Tawassul with them in ones supplication while visiting their graves: Then this can be a mean for attaining blessing and cure by Allah ta'ala.


                  As for your question why not all supplications in the Sunna contain seeking intercession through al-Mustafa, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam?:
                  Weird and unacademic question to say at least. What necessitates this?
                  This is like asking "Why is not every supplication in the Sunna with the greatest name of Allah ta'ala?" or what is similar to that.

                  Now please also address what was mentioned:

                  Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                  But before I mention more regarding the proofs in support of addressing the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and turning to Allah ta'ala through him or to ask for his supplication and intercession, let us first set the records straight:

                  You say "if this was allowed...":
                  Is this issue one of "allowed or disallowed"? If that is the case (which is true in reality!), then you would have to admit that all these accusations of polytheism made by the Najdis and the "Salafis" against other Muslims because of this very issue was wrong and that the killing committed by the Najdis because of this issue was a major crime.

                  If you however say it's an issue of "Tawhid or Shirk", then it's upon you to prove that's it's clear Shirk and also how so many classical scholars have explicitly recommended seeking intercession with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - when visiting his blessed grave. Then you've also to explain how the Shari'a does not get invalidated, while the ones who transmitted it (i.e. the scholars) were - in your claim at least - either openly "supporters of polytheism" or at least "silent regarding polytheism".

                  Then tell us who are your predecessors for your understanding?
                  Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 04-03-20, 05:33 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                    Regarding your claim that prostration to other than Allah ta'ala is widespread in the Subcontinent and your claim of the Hanafi Maturidi scholars not addressing this:

                    Sorry, but I do not trust your claims, especially when I have seen their Fatawa warning against doing anything like this.
                    And: I know that the "Salafis" from the Middle East make all kind of wrong accusations against other Muslims and sometimes even openly lie against scholars, so I can't just take your claims as granted.
                    Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 728 AH) even claimed that most of the people of Hijaz did not believe in the resurrection after death and we know with certainty that he was lying with this claim...
                    Please share the fatwas.


                    ...As for the issue of touching graves:
                    I believe that touching or kissing the grave of a righteous person is something that goes against the etiquette of visitation and is disliked (as already mentioned before). As for making Tawassul with them them in ones supplication while visiting their graves: Then this can be a mean for attaining blessing and cure by Allah ta'ala.
                    Do you believe that touching a grave can cure illnesses and ailments or offer any other type of blessing because that's why people do it.

                    As for your question why not all supplications in the Sunna contain seeking intercession through al-Mustafa, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam?:
                    Weird and unacademic question to say at least. What necessitates this?
                    This is like asking "Why is not every supplication in the Sunna with the greatest name of Allah ta'ala?" or what is similar to that.

                    Now please also address what was mentioned:
                    No it isn't because using names and attributes of Allah to make dua is from the Sunnah. If you can get the messenger of Allah to intercede for you, why would you make dua in any other way?



                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                      Please share the fatwas.
                      You're from the subcontinent and not me, so you should not be asking me this!
                      Anyways this is an example from the spiritual leader of the Barelvis:

                      Visiting a Shrine [by Imām Ahmad Ridā Khān]

                      Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                      Do you believe that touching a grave can cure illnesses and ailments or offer any other type of blessing because that's why people do it.
                      I stated what I believe more than once. How many times do you want me to repeat myself?
                      And: Even if someone does this with this intention, it's not polytheism if he's believing it to be a Sabab (mean) [for attaining blessing] created by Allah ta'ala!

                      Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                      No it isn't because using names and attributes of Allah to make dua is from the Sunnah. If you can get the messenger of Allah to intercede for you, why would you make dua in any other way?
                      There is no guarantee that the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - will intercede for you, just like there is no guarantee your supplication to Allah ta'ala will be accepted.
                      By the way: According to the beliefs of the people of Islam intercession is bound to the permission of Allah ta'ala and this means that intercession is accepted for the one whom Allah ta'ala wants and not in any other way.
                      And: You can't exclude Ahadith from the Sunna just because you don't like them!

                      Now address what I had mentioned please, because it is connected to the actual issue we're discussing and that is my statement that Najdis call things falsely as "polytheism" and "grave worship" while having no predecessors for this claim.

                      Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                      let us first set the records straight:

                      You say "if this was allowed...":
                      Is this issue one of "allowed or disallowed"? If that is the case (which is true in reality!), then you would have to admit that all these accusations of polytheism made by the Najdis and the "Salafis" against other Muslims because of this very issue was wrong and that the killing committed by the Najdis because of this issue was a major crime.

                      If you however say it's an issue of "Tawhid or Shirk", then it's upon you to prove that's it's clear Shirk and also how so many classical scholars have explicitly recommended seeking intercession with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - when visiting his blessed grave. Then you've also to explain how the Shari'a does not get invalidated, while the ones who transmitted it (i.e. the scholars) were - in your claim at least - either openly "supporters of polytheism" or at least "silent regarding polytheism".

                      Then tell us who are your predecessors for your understanding?
                      Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 04-03-20, 06:08 PM.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                        You're from the subcontinent and not me, so you should not be asking me this!
                        Anyways this is an example from the spiritual leader of the Barelvis:

                        Visiting a Shrine [by Imām Ahmad Ridā Khān]...
                        I meant share material from today. Some of their scholars and duaat do speak against practices of the people at graves and around magic/amulets but it doesn't reflect the severity of the issue. Add to this the book by the well respected Sunni Hanafi Maturidi scholar.

                        The point here is that despite the fatwas, the practices still go on by self proclaimed Sunnis who even claim to follow Ahmad Raza Khan! You see fatwas from Salafi scholars about certain forms of extremism yet the practices still go on by self proclaimed Salafis. Do we bring the rulings and then declare that we can't trust any claims that extremism exists because here is a fatwa that speaks against extremism. You would because you're sectarian.

                        ...I stated what I believe more than once. How many times do you want me to repeat myself?
                        And: Even if someone does this with this intention, it's not polytheism if he's believing it to be a Sabab (mean) created by Allah ta'ala!
                        You stated what you believe but didn't really answer the question. You say it is disliked (by who?) but then say that it's not shirk if the intention is to use it as a means. To be clear, you believe that touching a rock and claiming that it is a 'means' to seek help from Allah is not shirk?

                        ...There is no guarantee that the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - will intercede for you, just like there is no guarantee your supplication to Allah ta'ala will be accepted...
                        The difference being that we expect Allah to answer our duas.

                        ...Now address what I had mentioned please, because it is connected to the actual issue we're discussing and that is my statement that Najdis call things falsely as "polytheism" and "grave worship" while having no predecessors for this claim.
                        Give me an actual example to work with. For instance, tell me what you personally do in terms of intercession, which wording you use, related action etc. and we can discuss it.

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                          I meant share material from today. Some of their scholars and duaat do speak against practices of the people at graves and around magic/amulets but it doesn't reflect the severity of the issue. Add to this the book by the well respected Sunni Hanafi Maturidi scholar.

                          The point here is that despite the fatwas, the practices still go on by self proclaimed Sunnis who even claim to follow Ahmad Raza Khan! You see fatwas from Salafi scholars about certain forms of extremism yet the practices still go on by self proclaimed Salafis. Do we bring the rulings and then declare that we can't trust any claims that extremism exists because here is a fatwa that speaks against extremism. You would because you're sectarian.
                          Material can be easily found on google and I'm not here to search Fatawa for you or to take your claims as granted.

                          Then:
                          The problem is that even you're extreme - even if less than SJs - and so is the case of all of your "Salafi" Mashayikh. This is something you're not getting. Don't forget that you're also accusing others of "grave worship" without clear justification. And don't forget that your "Salafi" Mashayikh praise the same Najdis who killed huge number of Muslims (as admitted by themselves in their own books!). And don't forget that the Najdi ideology is causing the death of innocent Muslims until this day and age. Telling you this is in no way sectarian.
                          And I think by now anyone following what has been stated until now should have realized that my statement that the mindset of classical scholars was very different from that of the Najdis is correct.

                          Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                          You stated what you believe but didn't really answer the question. You say it is disliked (by who?) but then say that it's not shirk if the intention is to use it as a means. To be clear, you believe that touching a rock and claiming that it is a 'means' to seek help from Allah is not shirk?
                          Ever heard of Tabarruk? Touching the black stone (al-Hajar al-Aswad) or touching the Prophetic relics to attain blessing? (Both is obviously allowed.)
                          And if something is disliked (like touching graves as stated by the Fuqaha`), then it's obviously not Shirk, but rather only disliked. (Does that really need to explained any further? This is obvious as the sun.)
                          And: A person may simply be mistaken regarding whether something is a mean for attaining blessing or not. How does that turn into Shirk without having any Shirki beliefs?
                          Who are you predecessors for this accusation of Shirk against other Muslims? (This is by the way yet another proof for you being extreme!)

                          Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                          The difference being that we expect Allah to answer our duas.
                          Yeah, and then you're trying to act as if you're not extreme. And whom are we expecting to answer our supplication?
                          This just shows what a wrong view you have of other Muslims.

                          Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                          Give me an actual example to work with. For instance, tell me what you personally do in terms of intercession, which wording you use, related action etc. and we can discuss it.
                          Great, I've used the following supplication [after performing ablution and praying two cyles], which is based upon an authentic supplication found in the Sunna and acted upon by the Muslims throughout all centuries!:
                          "O Allah, I ask You and turn to You through Your Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy. O Messenger of Allah, I turn through you to my Lord in this need of mine, that it be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me."

                          And if Allah ta'ala enables me one day to visit the blessed grave of the best creation who has ever existed and will ever exist - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, then I would ask Rasulullah - may my soul be sacrificed to him - to pray for the forgiveness of my sins [and entering paradise].
                          And doing this is clearly supported and recommended by the classical scholars (and I've already brought some of their statements and the wordings they used ABOVE.)

                          According to the Najdis this is "grave worship" and I need to be killed for this (they have stated that the very wording used by the scholars is polytheism for which the people of their time deserve to be fought because the Najdi call has reached them!). Tell us who were the predecessors for the Najdis for this claim?
                          Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 04-03-20, 08:16 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                            Great, I've used the following supplication [after performing ablution and praying two cyles], which is based upon an authentic supplication found in the Sunna and acted upon by the Muslims throughout all centuries!:
                            "O Allah, I ask You and turn to You through Your Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy. O Messenger of Allah, I turn through you to my Lord in this need of mine, that it be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me."

                            And if Allah ta'ala enables me one day to visit the blessed grave of the best creation who has ever existed and will ever exist - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, then I would ask Rasulullah - may my soul be sacrificed to him - to pray for the forgiveness of my sins [and entering paradise].
                            And doing this is clearly supported and recommended by the classical scholars (and I've already brought some of their statements and the wordings they used ABOVE.)

                            According to the Najdis this is "grave worship" and I need to be killed for this (they have stated that the very wording used by the scholars is polytheism for which the people of their time deserve to be fought because the Najdi call has reached them!). Tell us who were the predecessors for the Najdis for this claim?
                            But instead of talking about what I do and what you think of it, why not see what is recommended in the famous al-Fatawa al-Hindiyya (which is written by the scholars of the subcontinent before Najdism even existed!) among other things during the visitation of the Prophetic grave, salllallahu 'alayhi wa sallam:

                            ويبلغه سلام من أوصاه فيقول : السلام عليك يا رسول الله من فلان بن فلان يستشفع بك إلى ربك فاشفع له ولجميع المسلمين

                            He (the visitor) should deliver him (the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) the greeting of the one who told him to do so by saying:
                            'Peace be upon you, o Messenger of Allah, from Fulan bin Fulan. He seeks intercession through you unto your Lord, so intercede for him and for all Muslims.

                            - end of quote -

                            What is the ruling of this statement according to the Najdis and the "Salafis"? According to both of them it's clear Shirk and the Najdis clearly call for killing anyone doing this, if they have heard about the Najdi call [to hellfire]. (I can quote them saying this explicitly!)
                            To make it short: The scholars of the subcontinent [and those of all Islamic regions] were calling to "clear polytheism" according to the Najdi Khawarij. So even the scholars were upon "polytheism" according to them!
                            So what do you say? Is it okay for me to call this as extremism?
                            Or is it sectarian and I therefore should support the killing of anyone who follows the above ruling after hearing the Najdi / "Salafi" call?
                            Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 04-03-20, 08:59 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                              Material can be easily found on google and I'm not here to search Fatawa for you or to take your claims as granted...
                              It's up to you provide material to back your position.


                              Then:
                              The problem is that even you're extreme - even if less than SJs - and so is the case of all of your "Salafi" Mashayikh. This is something you're not getting. Don't forget that you're also accusing others of "grave worship" without clear justification. And don't forget that your "Salafi" Mashayikh praise the same Najdis who killed huge number of Muslims (as admitted by themselves in their own books!). And don't forget that the Najdi ideology is causing the death of innocent Muslims until this day and age. Telling you this is in no way sectarian.
                              And I think by now anyone following what has been stated until now should have realized that my statement that the mindset of classical scholars was very different from that of the Najdis is correct....
                              The deaths of innocent Muslims is caused by Hanafi Maturidis too. When the Pak government, with blessing from the majority of the country, killed countless Muslims for fighting against the US invaders in Afghanistan.


                              Ever heard of Tabarruk? Touching the black stone (al-Hajar al-Aswad) or touching the Prophetic relics to attain blessing? (Both is obviously allowed.)
                              And if something is disliked (like touching graves as stated by the Fuqaha`), then it's obviously not Shirk, but rather only disliked. (Does that really need to explained any further? This is obvious as the sun.)
                              And: A person may simply be mistaken regarding whether something is a mean for attaining blessing or not. How does that turn into Shirk without having any Shirki beliefs?
                              Who are you predecessors for this accusation of Shirk against other Muslims? (This is by the way yet another proof for you being extreme!)
                              Again, for clarity, you see no 'shirki beliefs' if one was to keep a 'special' rock in order to seek blessings from it despite claiming that it is means to get closer to Allah? There is nothing 'shirki' about that at all?


                              ...Yeah, and then you're trying to act as if you're not extreme. And whom are we expecting to answer our supplication?
                              This just shows what a wrong view you have of other Muslims.
                              You equated the messenger of Allah not interceding to Allah not responding to a dua. Both are obviously two very different things.


                              ...Great, I've used the following supplication [after performing ablution and praying two cyles], which is based upon an authentic supplication found in the Sunna and acted upon by the Muslims throughout all centuries!:
                              "O Allah, I ask You and turn to You through Your Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy. O Messenger of Allah, I turn through you to my Lord in this need of mine, that it be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me."...
                              This is not shirk but it is invalid. Do you do this with every dua or only some? If the latter, why do you seek intercession only in some dua and not others?

                              And if Allah ta'ala enables me one day to visit the blessed grave of the best creation who has ever existed and will ever exist - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, then I would ask Rasulullah - may my soul be sacrificed to him - to pray for the forgiveness of my sins [and entering paradise].
                              And doing this is clearly supported and recommended by the classical scholars (and I've already brought some of their statements and the wordings they used ABOVE.)...
                              Innovation that can lead to shirk. Of course, we are differentiating between doing at the grave and calling out from a random place, and also differentiating between the Prophet and anyone else.

                              ...According to the Najdis this is "grave worship" and I need to be killed for this (they have stated that the very wording used by the scholars is polytheism for which the people of their time deserve to be fought because the Najdi call has reached them!). Tell us who were the predecessors for the Najdis for this claim?
                              I have ever come across anyone who made takfeer for the above.
                              Last edited by Abu 'Abdullaah; 05-03-20, 08:34 AM. Reason: typo

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                                It's up to you provide material to back your position.
                                I have already brought enough quotes by classical scholars to back my position.
                                It has been shown that they would differentiate and not rush towards calling things as polytheism and disbelief and that even in extreme cases.
                                And it has also been proven that they supported asking for the intercession of our beloved Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam.

                                Now it‘s your turn to prove your accusations of Shirk against other Muslim:

                                - Please show us that the classical scholars regarded it as real polytheism that throws one out of the religion, if someone seeks aid (Istighatha) with the Prophets and the Righteous. (I can bring you quotes from them saying that‘s it not wrong to do so and some said it's disallowed - especially for laymen - due to fear that it could lead to wrong beliefs.)
                                - Please show us that the one who wears something that he ties around the neck containing Ayat or supplications with correct wordings has committed real Shirk that throws one out of the religion. ( This is something allowed and done by the companions!)
                                - Please show us that touching a grave of a righteous person is polytheism that throws one out of religion. (It‘s disliked, but some scholars have mentioned that if the intention is Tabbaruk, then it’s not wrong.)


                                If you’re unable to prove these points from the classical scholars - and I guarantee you that you’re unable to do so - then this proves that you people are innovators and are accusing Muslims of polytheism without due right.

                                Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                                The deaths of innocent Muslims is caused by Hanafi Maturidis too. When the Pak government, with blessing from the majority of the country, killed countless Muslims for fighting against the US invaders in Afghanistan.
                                Let‘s for the sake of argument accept your false claim against the Hanafis of Pakistan:
                                According to the Hanafi Maturidi standards it would be a major crime to support the killing of other Muslims.
                                According to the Najdi standards however it‘s a good thing to kill other non-Najdi Muslims, because they’re "polytheists" in their creed!

                                By the way: The Muslims who America kills in Afghanistan are also Hanafis and are "polytheists" according to Najdi standards, so don’t try to fool us with your crocodile tears.

                                Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                                Again, for clarity, you see no 'shirki beliefs' if one was to keep a 'special' rock in order to seek blessings from it despite claiming that it is means to get closer to Allah? There is nothing 'shirki' about that at all?
                                It‘s scary how you’re hellbent on distorting what I‘ve stated. This is pure Wahhabi behavior and extremism.

                                Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                                You equated the messenger of Allah not interceding to Allah not responding to a dua. Both are obviously two very different things.
                                It‘s you who‘s trying to build up a dichotomy between "asking Allah directly vs asking for intercession" and not me.

                                Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                                This is not shirk but it is invalid. Do you do this with every dua or only some? If the latter, why do you seek intercession only in some dua and not others?
                                So our Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - teaches a supplication, the companion reporting it teaches it after his death and the Salaf use it (as admitted by the Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah himself) and then it‘s still invalid?
                                Allahul musta'an.

                                As for your non-intelligent question:
                                The Sunna contains all kinds of supplications and this supplication is one of them. This means that I can use all of these supplications and I am not forced to use just one of them constantly.

                                If you keep on making the same question, it will prove that you’re an idiot.

                                Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                                Innovation that can lead to shirk. Of course, we are differentiating between doing at the grave and calling out from a random place, and also differentiating between the Prophet and anyone else.
                                Saying it‘s innovation that can lead to Shirk is the position of Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya, but not that of Najdis!
                                As for the classical scholars: They recommended it as already shown.

                                As for "random places":
                                The Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya regards this as similar to Istighatha and he regards Istghatha as Shirk, but not real one that throws one out of religion.
                                The Najdis and "Salafis" regard it as real Shirk.


                                Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                                I have ever come across anyone who made takfeer for the above.
                                Upon which planet are you living?!
                                This means that you’re not in a position to discuss this issue, because your not aware of your own Madhhab.

                                The issue of asking intercession is regarded as one of those things that nullify ones Islam by Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) and he claims that this is the very Shirk of the Makkan pagans.
                                And on the "Salafi" "Islamqa"-website quotes Ibn Baz explicitly stating it‘s Shirk akbar to ask for intercession and then comes up with some atheist justification for this ugly claim.
                                According to the Najdis this is the primary reason for fighting other Muslims.


                                Now I ask you yet another time:
                                Is this extremism or is fighting Muslims because of this issue a justified issue?
                                For once answer my question and don‘t run away to another issue.
                                Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 05-03-20, 11:55 AM.

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