Ads by Muslim Ad Network

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

A Critique of Husam al-Haramayn: How a fatwa split the Ummah

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    By the way:
    There is nothing "mainstream" about "Salafis"! Their Mashayikh are extreme and evil just like the Mashayikh of the Rafidha!

    And:
    Many "Salafis" are "Jihadi" inclined! And AQI, ISI and ISIS are not the only SJs! AQ in general, Jabhat al-Nusra, the Shabab, Boko Haram and similar groups are all SJs!
    Infact many people on this very forum are inclined towards the SJs, but we do NOT see you speaking out against them or stopping them!

    And this is an indication of your hypocrisy! We do not need the crocodile tears of "Salafis" or people like you!


    Get this into your brain:
    Anyone who praises, teaches and endorses books where one is commanded to perform mass-Takfir and mass-killings against Muslims does NOT deserve any respect just like the one who praises, teaches and endorses books where the noble companions - may Allah be pleased with all of them! - are cursed and slandered in the ugliest ways does NOT deserve to be respected in any way!
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 19-02-20, 07:13 PM.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

      Great. Now the question is:
      What is the ruling of the one who praises and teaches books which are calling towards mass-Takfir and mass-killing of Muslims?...
      Name the books.

      ...People who do whatever the government tells them to do have always existed in all groups, but these people are doing so because of worldly gain and usually not because their Madhhab tells them to do so. So you mentioning this issue is completely irrelevant and just a dishonest attempt to change the subject...
      They claim to do it in accordance with Islam. They are praised by other so-called Sunnis. Now what?

      You still haven't presented any reasonable evidence for your claim earlier. Everything else is hot air.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
        ...Infact many people on this very forum are inclined towards the SJs, but we do NOT see you speaking out against them or stopping them!...
        Such as?

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

          Name the books.

          ...

          You still haven't presented any reasonable evidence for your claim earlier. Everything else is hot air.
          Books are already named! Mufid al-Mustafid for example!

          Hot air, right?
          (My claims earlier? You mean that I said that SJs in Iraq blew up mosques? I posted a video as a proof! Are you trying to defend them from this "claim" of mine?)

          Why don't you start being honest? I know that you're trying to run away from what has been stated, because you're not able to refute it:

          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
          As for "Salafi" Mashayikh: They print, praise and teach books like Kitab al-Tawhid, Kashf al-Shubuhat, Qawa'id al-Arba', Mufid al-Mustafid and similar books written by Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d.1206 AH).
          These books are quite obviously calling for Takfir upon other Muslims.
          The worst one among them is Mufid al-Mustafid: It was specifically written by Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab after the people of the township Huraymila [in Najd] stopped aiding the early Wahhabi / Najdi movement in killing other Muslims. Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab tries to argue in this book why these people have APOSTATED simply because they stopped doing Takfir upon those Muslims whom he personally regards as polytheists and disbelievers. His followers attacked the township after his Fatwa and killed many!
          (Note that ALL Hanbali scholars in the region rejected this Takfir and he made Takfir upon them too.)
          How for God's sake is it allowed to teach such books?!?

          The same "Salafi" Mashayikh endorse history books written by the early Najdis like Tarikh Najd and 'Unwan al-Majd, which are filled with praising and describing the killing of other Muslims. In fact ISIS does not reach the crimes that are mentioned and praised in these books!

          What these "Salafi" Mashayikh also do is to endorse al-Durar al-Saniyya, which is a collection of the statements of early Najdis. It contain so much mass-Takfir for the most silliest of reasons, that one really asks oneself how for God's sake one could endorse or praise such a Khariji book?

          To make it short: The "Salafi" Mashayikh teach, endorse, praise and print books, which contain explicit statements of commanding people to do Takfir and to kill other Muslims and praising doing this and regarding this as an act of worship.
          So if anyone from among them afterwards criticizes AQI or ISI or ISIS or any similar group (who simply tried to implent these books!), then this is HYPOCRISY and nothing less!

          Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

          Such as?
          You're one of the mods, not me!
          But I'll help you: People like Abu julaybeeb and abufulaans for example.
          Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 19-02-20, 09:21 PM.

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

            Books are already named! Mufid al-Mustafid for example!...
            I don't know the book. Quote the mass takfeer and killing of Muslims.

            Hot air, right?
            (My claims earlier? You mean that I said that SJs in Iraq blew up mosques? I posted a video as a proof! Are you trying to defend them from this "claim" of mine?)...
            The video didn't prove your claim you idiot.


            You're one of the mods, not me!
            But I'll help you: People like Abu julaybeeb and abufulaans for example.
            When did they call for mass takfeer or killing of Muslims?
            Last edited by Abu 'Abdullaah; 20-02-20, 06:59 PM. Reason: typo

            Comment


            • #36
              Abu julaybeeb abufulaans

              Have you guys been calling for mass murder of Muslims when I wasn't looking?

              >:-|

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                The video didn't prove your claim you idiot.
                Watch your mouth, shameless person!

                I specifically gave an example of a very famous mosque (so it would become easy to recheck the issue) and gave its name (Nabi Yunus Mosque) and its location (Mosul) and the year in which it was blown up (2014) and posted the video of its destruction and yet this shameless person claims that this does not prove anything!
                Note that this happened AFTER ISIS took over Mosul and they openly claimed responsibility for this (and gave a worthless Wahhabi justification for doing so!) and it was not just mentioned by the Iraqi media, but rather by international media also, yet this guy dares to claim that it proves nothing!

                I also mentioned the Shaykh Harith al-Dhari (because he was a known personality, so it would be easy to recheck what I mentioned!) and that he stated in an interview [with Al-Jazeera] that AQI killed [50 of] his relatives. They would have obviously killed him too, if they had the opportunity. Yet according to the shameless person above, this does NOT prove anything!


                And I add to what I've already mentioned the following examples:

                - In 2007 AQI / ISI blew up a car next to the al-Sahaba Mosque in al-Habbaniyya (which lies between Falluja and Ramadi) right after the 'Asr prayer, which lead to the death of a huge number of people (including women and children!) and the destruction of the mosque. Among the men who were killed was the Imam of the mosque - the Shaykh Muhammad al-Ma'rawi -, who had praised the Iraqi resistance groups while at the same time criticized AQI.
                (Source for recheck:
                https://www.alquds.co.uk/%D9%85%D9%8...%D9%8A-%D8%AD/)

                - In 2005 they killed the Shaykh Hamza al-'Isawi - the Mufti of Falluja! - after the 'Isha` prayer after he had left the al-Wahda mosque in Falluja.

                - In 2005 they also killed the Shaykh Ayad al-Izzi when he was returning back from a Khutba in 'Amriyya al-Falluja.

                - In 2006 they killed the Shaykh Muhannad al-Ghurayri while he was on his way to Ibrahim al-Khalil Mosque in a village of al-Karma (which lies in al-Anbar) with 30 gunshots all over his body.

                - In 2007 they killed the Shaykh 'Ali al-Zind - the Khatib of al-Siddiq Mosque - in Baghdad.

                (Click on their names to see more informations about them and how they were killed - wikipedia in Arabic.)

                Note that these are only SOME of the examples of known Mashayikh that were killed by these criminals. The list of Mashayikh, 'Ulama` and Khutaba` that were killed by them in the Sunni regions is quite long and this is common knowledge in the Sunni regions!

                Yet all of this does not prove anything!
                Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 20-02-20, 07:53 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                  I don't know the book. Quote the mass takfeer and killing of Muslims.
                  Yes, you only know to how to be shameless.


                  I've a whole thread regarding this issue (you have even commented there!):

                  The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than ISIS

                  An example forr mass-Takfir:

                  Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                  Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

                  The orginal Wahhabi movement: "Whoever does not make Takfir upon the people of Makkah is a disbeliever!"

                  Let us see what the Najdis said:

                  الأمر الثاني: الكفر بما يعبد من دون الله، والمراد بذلك تكفير المشركين، والبراءة منهم، ومما يعبدون مع الله. فمن لم يكفر المشركين من الدولة التركية، وعباد القبور، كأهل مكة وغيرهم، ممن عبد الصالحين، وعدل عن توحيد الله إلى الشرك، وبدّل سنّة رسوله صلى الله عليه وسلم بالبدع، فهو كافر مثلهم، وإن كان يكره دينهم، ويبغضهم، ويحب الإسلام والمسلمين ; فإن الذي لا يكفر المشركين، غير مصدق بالقرآن، فإن القرآن قد كفر المشركين، وأمر بتكفيرهم، وعداوتهم وقتالهم

                  "The second issue: To disbelieve in that which is worshipped instead of Allah, and this means to make Takfir (declare as disbelievers) upon the polytheists (Mushrikin) and the disavowal from them and that which they worship alongside Allah.
                  So whoever does not make Takfir upon the polytheists of the turkish state (i.e. the Ottomans!) and the grave-worshippers like the people of Makkah (!!!) and [upon] others from those who worship the righteous (Salihin) and left the Tawhid (monotheism) of Allah for Shirk (polytheism) and exchanged the Sunnah of his Messenger - sallalalhu 'alayhi wa sallam - with innovations, then he is a disbeliever like them even if dislikes their religion und hates them and loves Islam and its people.
                  This is so because the one who does not declare the polytheists to be disbelievers has not accepted the Qur`an. The Qur`an declares the polytheists as disbelievers, and commands to declare them as such and to show enmity towards them and to fight them."

                  Source: al-Durar al-Saniyya 9/291

                  Look what a great lie they made against the people of Makkah, who were from the people of Tawhid and Tanzih! (And do you see the Takfir against the Ottomans?)
                  And look how they make Takfir even upon the one who does not make Takfir upon them. If this is not Ghuluww (extremism), then I don't know what is!
                  But this does not prove anything, right?
                  Even if 100 more quotes like this are brought (and there are even more quotes than that!), it still does not prove anything according to people like you!

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    An example for mass-killing:

                    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                    Terrorizing and mass-slaugtering the people of al-Ahsa`

                    Ibn Bishr (d. 1288 AH) said while speaking about the incidents of the year 1210 AH:

                    فلما كان قبل طلوع الشمس ثور المسلمون بنادقهم دفعة واحدة , فأرجفت الأرض وأظلمت السماء , وثار عج الدخان في الجو , وأسقط كثير من الحوامل في الأحساء , ثم نزل سعود في الرقيقة المذكورة , فسلم له , وظهر له جميع أهل الأحساء على إحسانه وإساءته , وأمرهم بالخروج فخرجوا , فأقام في ذلك المنزل مدّة أشهر يقتل من أراد قتله ويجلي من أراد جلاءه ، ويحبس من أراد حبسه ، ويأخذ من الأموال ، ويهدم من المحال ، ويبني ثغوراً ، ويهدم دوراً ، وضرب عليهم ألوفاً من الدراهم وقبضها منهم ... وأكثر سعود فيهم القتل ... فهذا مقتول في البلد ، وهذا يخرجونه إلى الخيام ، ويضرب عنقه عند خيمة سعود ، حتى أفناهم إلا قليلا ، وحاز سعود من الأموال في تلك الغزوة ما لا يعد ولا يحصى

                    "Then before the sunrise the Muslims (read: the Wahhabis) shot with their rifles [all at] once, so that the earth trembled, and the heaven became dark, and smoke rose into the sky and many of the pregnant women (!!!) in al-Ahsa` had a miscarriage (due to extreme fear).
                    Then Sa'ud settled in the [earlier] mentioned al-Raqiqah, so it was given to him. All of the people of al-Ahsa` [then] appeared in front of him in kindness and badness. He commanded them to leave so they left.
                    He stayed there for [several] months [while] kiling whomever he wanted to kill, and exiling whomever he wanted to exile, and imprisoning whomever he wanted to imprison, and taking from the wealth, and destroying places, and building strongholds, and destroying houses and wanting thousands of Dirhams from them and taking it from them...
                    And Sa'ud killed many of them...
                    So this one [lies] killed in the land and that one is taken out to the tents and his neck is struck off near the tent of Sa'ud until he annhalited [all of] them except very few.

                    Sa'ud came into possesion of [much] wealth in this attack (Ghazwah) which can not be counted or numbered."

                    Source: 'Unwan al-Majd 1/216-217

                    (Remember: Sa'ud I. bin 'Abd al-'Aziz [bin Muhammad bin Sa'ud] (d. 1229 AH) later on (i.e. 1218 AH) became the third ruler of the first Saudi state and was a direct student of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab.)
                    But hey, this does not prove anything!

                    Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                    When did they call for mass takfeer or killing of Muslims?
                    Read what I said!
                    I said that there are people with SJ inclination even on this website here - because you were claiming that they're only a fringe group among "Salafis" - and gave these two names as example after you asked me to do so.
                    And SJs differ in their level of extremism; and both mentioned persons were defending the Takfir [and consequently the killing] that was committed by the early Najdis in the above mentioned thread.
                    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 20-02-20, 08:19 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                      Watch your mouth, shameless person!

                      I specifically gave an example of a very famous mosque (so it would become easy to recheck the issue) and gave its name (Nabi Yunus Mosque) and its location (Mosul) and the year in which it was blown up (2014) and posted the video of its destruction and yet this shameless person claims that this does not prove anything!
                      Note that this happened AFTER ISIS took over Mosul and they openly claimed responsibility for this (and gave a worthless Wahhabi justification for doing so!) and it was not just mentioned by the Iraqi media, but rather by international media also, yet this guy dares to claim that it proves nothing!

                      I also mentioned the Shaykh Harith al-Dhari (because he was a known personality, so it would be easy to recheck what I mentioned!) and that he stated in an interview [with Al-Jazeera] that AQI killed [50 of] his relatives. They would have obviously killed him too, if they had the opportunity. Yet according to the shameless person above, this does NOT prove anything!


                      And I add to what I've already mentioned the following examples:

                      - In 2007 AQI / ISI blew up a car next to the al-Sahaba Mosque in al-Habbaniyya (which lies between Falluja and Ramadi) right after the 'Asr prayer, which lead to the death of a huge number of people (including women and children!) and the destruction of the mosque. Among the men who were killed was the Imam of the mosque - the Shaykh Muhammad al-Ma'rawi -, who had praised the Iraqi resistance groups while at the same time criticized AQI.
                      (Source for recheck:
                      https://www.alquds.co.uk/%D9%85%D9%8...%D9%8A-%D8%AD/)

                      - In 2005 they killed the Shaykh Hamza al-'Isawi - the Mufti of Falluja! - after the 'Isha` prayer after he had left the al-Wahda mosque in Falluja.

                      - In 2005 they also killed the Shaykh Ayad al-Izzi when he was returning back from a Khutba in 'Amriyya al-Falluja.

                      - In 2006 they killed the Shaykh Muhannad al-Ghurayri while he was on his way to Ibrahim al-Khalil Mosque in a village of al-Karma (which lies in al-Anbar) with 30 gunshots all over his body.

                      - In 2007 they killed the Shaykh 'Ali al-Zind - the Khatib of al-Siddiq Mosque - in Baghdad.

                      (Click on their names to see more informations about them and how they were killed - wikipedia in Arabic.)

                      Note that these are only SOME of the examples of known Mashayikh that were killed by these criminals. The list of Mashayikh, 'Ulama` and Khutaba` that were killed by them in the Sunni regions is quite long and this is common knowledge in the Sunni regions!

                      Yet all of this does not prove anything!
                      I've looked and searched through much of this and it's more of the same. In some cases, it is not known who the perpetrators were, and sometimes certain 'militants' were blamed. There are even conflicting reports where a group have claimed an attack but again, no evidence other than claims. IS have claimed various attacks without evidence.

                      Also, to mention it again, even if these attacks are proven to be by AQ/IS... they are not supported by Salafis in general who are against these groups. You are desperate to paint them all with the same brush to back your sectarian rhetoric but it's not convincing. Just like painting all so-called 'Sunnis' with the same brush is misleading - which you have problem with (rightly so).

                      Conclusion: sectarian propaganda.

                      On a side note, some of the people you mentioned have link to the Muslim Brotherhood... do you consider MB to be Sunnis? Some of them, part of the AMS, call to democracy... do you consider democrats to be Sunni?

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                        Yes, you only know to how to be shameless.


                        I've a whole thread regarding this issue (you have even commented there!):

                        The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than ISIS

                        An example forr mass-Takfir:



                        But this does not prove anything, right?
                        Even if 100 more quotes like this are brought (and there are even more quotes than that!), it still does not prove anything according to people like you!
                        What's wrong with making takfeer of polytheists and grave worshippers (if true)?

                        Makkah is controlled by the Saudis now. Forget about the Wahhabism for a second and concentrate on the direction in which the country id going i.e. liberalism. Do you consider them to be 'people of Makkah who are on tawheed' or do you see them as heretics? They openly ally with kufaar against Muslims but they are the people of the two masajid so they are beyond criticism, right?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                          An example for mass-killing:...Read what I said!
                          I said that there are people with SJ inclination even on this website here - because you were claiming that they're only a fringe group among "Salafis" - and gave these two names as example after you asked me to do so.
                          And SJs differ in their level of extremism; and both mentioned persons were defending the Takfir [and consequently the killing] that was committed by the early Najdis in the above mentioned thread.
                          I did claim they are a fringe group... and you proved it by naming two people who (I hope they don't mind me saying this) don't even write properly. We have people on this site - 'Sunnis' - who openly support the US/Pak coalition in bombing Muslims in Pakistan. Should they be stopped too?

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                            Abu julaybeeb abufulaans

                            Have you guys been calling for mass murder of Muslims when I wasn't looking?

                            >:-|
                            Erm what

                            i condemn this

                            i would never say or call to something like that

                            totally against this

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Gufy sufis and asharis always making things up

                              Anyone who kills a muslim is committing a major major sin

                              (i do believe asharis are muslim and sufis too as long as they dont grave worship and believe their imams are infallible etc)

                              though a couple people on uf do actually believe going to the dead and making duaa to them is permissable


                              ​​​​​
                              Last edited by Abu julaybeeb; 21-02-20, 02:23 AM.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                                I've looked and searched through much of this and it's more of the same. In some cases, it is not known who the perpetrators were, and sometimes certain 'militants' were blamed. There are even conflicting reports where a group have claimed an attack but again, no evidence other than claims. IS have claimed various attacks without evidence.

                                Also, to mention it again, even if these attacks are proven to be by AQ/IS... they are not supported by Salafis in general who are against these groups. You are desperate to paint them all with the same brush to back your sectarian rhetoric but it's not convincing. Just like painting all so-called 'Sunnis' with the same brush is misleading - which you have problem with (rightly so).

                                Conclusion: sectarian propaganda.
                                If AQ or the "Salafi Jihadis" in general are such a fringe group among "Salafis", could you explain to us why you're indirectly trying to defend them and act as if they're innocent from the attacks mentioned above?
                                If they're such a fringe group, then why is it that many "Salafis" are SJ inclined and fans of groups like Jabhat al-Nusra or the Shabab or similar groups? Will you be able to deny that?

                                Then: You're most likely living somewhere in the West far away from the land of the two rivers, so how can you claim out of nowhere that AQI or ISI is not guilty of what has been mentioned (even though they themselves have CLAIMED many attacks in Iraq THEMSELVES)?
                                And what should we do with all the videos POSTED BY THEMSELVES which contain clear crimes? What should we do with these videos?
                                Another point: Why is that when the number of SJs in a region in Iraq was more, it automatically lead to huge numbers of attacks against the people in these areas? Why is that these SJs were openly threatening many of the Mashayikh and known personalities of these regions with death and were openly throwing around with accusations of apostasy against other people?

                                Please don't try to deny the undeniable. The SJs in Iraq have committed very huge crimes against the Iraqi population.

                                Note: I'm not saying that "Salafis" in general have commited these crimes. I'm saying that "Salafi Jihadis" have committed these crimes. And I'm also saying that the cause for the extremism of these people is because of the things that "Salafi" Mashayikh teach to their followers.

                                Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                                On a side note, some of the people you mentioned have link to the Muslim Brotherhood... do you consider MB to be Sunnis? Some of them, part of the AMS, call to democracy... do you consider democrats to be Sunni?
                                A person whose beliefs are in line with those of the Ash'aris, Maturidis or Hanbalis (even if he does not necessarily give himself one of these labels) and adheres to the 4 Madhahib in Fiqh in reality is a Sunni. If such a person then becomes a member of the MB or not does not change him being a Sunni.
                                As for democracy: The Mashayikh in Iraq in general do not use the word "democracy" with a Kufri meaning, so you have no point here.

                                Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                                Abu julaybeeb abufulaans

                                Have you guys been calling for mass murder of Muslims when I wasn't looking?

                                >:-|
                                Even the worst Khawarij - like the Azariqa - would not have said that they're doing Takfir upon Muslims [and consequently killing them], rather they will say "we only make Takfir upon disbelievers".
                                So your question is really laughable. Who are you trying to fool?
                                Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 21-02-20, 04:26 PM.

                                Comment

                                Collapse

                                Edit this module to specify a template to display.

                                Working...
                                X