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A Critique of Husam al-Haramayn: How a fatwa split the Ummah

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  • Abu 'Abdullaah
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

    Has anyone told you that you're quite an annoying person?...
    All the time.

    You're always demanding things and asking questions, but never really giving anything substantial as a response. Why don't you simply go and inform yourself instead of acting as if the one speaking to you owes you some sort of explanation?...
    Why are you on a discussion forum making claims?

    Let me ask you a simple quetion: What is the ruling of killing innocent people?!
    Haraam. See? Simple answer to a simple question. I didn't have to bore you to death with word salad.

    The Shaykh Harith al-Dhari mentioned in an interview that AQI killed a huge number of his relatives. Obviously they would have also killed him, if there would be a opportunity to do so.
    And this just one example.


    The number of people killed by AQI / ISI / ISIS is very huge. You demanding a proof for that just shows how much you care for Iraq!

    What do you want me to do now? Post graphic videos for you?

    Here is the aftermath of the explosion of the bridge in Rawa (2014), were a group of people celebrating a wedding were killed:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ej04AI6O6U

    Here a famous mosque in Mosul is blown up (2014):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja4gU7bDzFc

    And here is the explosion of a wedding ceremony of in 'Amiyya al-Falluja (2016):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh83cUgr4Sg

    Are you happy now?
    I can post a lot more videos of funerals, markets and other places, but they are too graphic and I don't want to share them here. As for the videos uploaded by ISI back then, then they included all types of crimes (including burning people alive!).
    I just searched the Shaykh you mentioned and within two minutes I already like him, may Allah have mercy on him. But, I don't see what any of this proves. You made a specific claim but haven't provided any reasonable evidence to back it up. Earlier, you said the invaders hyped up AQ in Iraq because they wanted them to be perceived as the boogeymen... isn't that what you're doing by blaming Wahhabis for everything?

    ...As for "Salafis" condeming AQ or ISIS: So what? It's "Salafism" that leads to all this extreme ideas and behavior! The "Salafi" Mashayikh are the cause for this extremism in the first place! These people glorify the first generation of ISIS (which existed before 200 years), i.e. the original Najdis!

    As for people claiming to be Sunnis (i.e. Ash'ari / Maturidi / Hanbali) and acting otherwise: And who told you that I accept such persons as real Sunnis? It's not just the label that turns a person into a Sunni!
    This shows how dumb your position is.

    Mainstream 'Salafis' condemn extreme fringe groups that may also call themselves 'Salafi' - but you they are all the same to you. "So what?!"
    Mainstream 'Sunnis' condemn extreme fringe groups (rarely!) that may also call themselves 'Sunni' - but now there is a difference.

    Your principles are inconsistent and based on nothing more than sectarian politics... because of your 'saved sect' mentality.
    Last edited by Abu 'Abdullaah; 18-02-20, 11:06 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

    Utter rubbish. You were talking about something specific. I have spent years on this forum tackling kaafr trolls and have spoken about Iraq. What is your track record apart from attacking Muslims?

    As for the rest of your post, it's not an acceptable answer. I didn't ask for an anecdotal history lesson... it was a simple question about attacks on Sunni masajid and shuyukh but you are too involved in your polemics and try to obfuscate.

    Anyway, have Salafis across the board condemned al-Qaida and IS? I think you'll find they have. Going by your logic, some of your so-called 'Sunnis' are involved with the very governments you claim to hate. Are these 'Sunnis' who are of the Ashari/Maturidi/Hanafi persuasion reflective of Sunnis in general? I don't think they are - I see them as heretics. You believe they are from the saved sect simply because they attach those labels to themselves.
    Has anyone told you that you're quite an annoying person?
    You're always demanding things and asking questions, but never really giving anything substantial as a response. Why don't you simply go and inform yourself instead of acting as if the one speaking to you owes you some sort of explanation?

    Let me ask you a simple quetion: What is the ruling of killing innocent people?!

    The Shaykh Harith al-Dhari mentioned in an interview that AQI killed a huge number of his relatives. Obviously they would have also killed him, if there would be a opportunity to do so.
    And this just one example.

    The number of people killed by AQI / ISI / ISIS is very huge. You demanding a proof for that just shows how much you [don't] care for Iraq!

    What do you want me to do now? Post graphic videos for you?

    Here is the aftermath of the explosion of the bridge in Rawa (2014), were a group of people celebrating a wedding were killed:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ej04AI6O6U

    Here a famous mosque in Mosul is blown up (2014):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ja4gU7bDzFc

    And here is the explosion of a wedding ceremony of in 'Amriyya al-Falluja (2016):

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mh83cUgr4Sg

    Are you happy now?
    I can post a lot more videos of funerals, markets and other places, but they are too graphic and I don't want to share them here. As for the videos uploaded by ISI back then, then they included all types of crimes (including burning people alive!).

    As for "Salafis" condeming AQ or ISIS: So what? It's "Salafism" that leads to all this extreme ideas and behavior! The "Salafi" Mashayikh are the cause for this extremism in the first place! These people glorify the first generation of ISIS (which existed before 200 years), i.e. the original Najdis!

    As for people claiming to be Sunnis (i.e. Ash'ari / Maturidi / Hanbali) and acting otherwise: And who told you that I accept such persons as real Sunnis? It's not just the label that turns a person into a Sunni!
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 18-02-20, 10:55 PM.

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  • Abu 'Abdullaah
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Instead of waiting for my response, you could have simply informed yourself.
    Being ignorant of the pain of other Muslims is an indication for not caring about them.
    Whenever a Muslim brother or sister is oppressed and in pain, then it is our own brother and own sister that is in pain.
    It does not make any difference whether these Muslims are from Palestine, Kashmir Afghanistan, East Turkestan, Iraq, Syria, Burma, Yemen, Libya or any other place upon this globe!...
    Utter rubbish. You were talking about something specific. I have spent years on this forum tackling kaafr trolls and have spoken about Iraq. What is your track record apart from attacking Muslims?

    As for the rest of your post, it's not an acceptable answer. I didn't ask for an anecdotal history lesson... it was a simple question about attacks on Sunni masajid and shuyukh but you are too involved in your polemics and try to obfuscate.

    Anyway, have Salafis across the board condemned al-Qaida and IS? I think you'll find they have. Going by your logic, some of your so-called 'Sunnis' are involved with the very governments you claim to hate. Are these 'Sunnis' who are of the Ashari/Maturidi/Hanafi persuasion reflective of Sunnis in general? I don't think they are - I see them as heretics. You believe they are from the saved sect simply because they attach those labels to themselves.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    Instead of waiting for my response, you could have simply informed yourself.
    Being ignorant of the pain of other Muslims is an indication for not caring about them.
    Whenever a Muslim brother or sister is oppressed and in pain, then it is our own brother and own sister that is in pain.
    It does not make any difference whether these Muslims are from Palestine, Kashmir Afghanistan, East Turkestan, Iraq, Syria, Burma, Yemen, Libya or any other place upon this globe!


    As for what happened in Iraq:

    In 2003 the United States of America - a country that was built upon killing off the native population of North America! - decided to occupy Iraq. Their justification for this was their claim that Iraq possessed WMDs and had links to 9/11, which was both nothing but a big lie.
    And this lie was coming from a country that is the only one upon this globe to have used nuclear weapons in combat!

    Soon after the occupation and their oppression against the Iraqi population, resistance groups were formed and got stronger day by day to the degree that in some regions the American occupation troops could not pass through without getting attacked.
    The resistance was first and foremost by the local people of those regions.
    Some "Salafi Jihadi" foreigners also had arrived claiming to help in the resistance against the Americans.
    These foreign "Salafi" fighters almost all joined what was known as "al-Qa'ida in Iraq“ under the leadership of al-Zarqawi. Al-Zarqawi himself was very extreme in his beliefs and was similar to the early Najdis!

    America was very worried, because they were loosing more and more of their [accursed] soldiers, but then they saw a chance to regain control of Iraq:
    While the local groups were busy attacking the Americans, Zarqawi‘s group with their extreme and sectarian mindset started attacking the Shi‘a population and their clerics.

    America understood that if they would be successful in implementing the "divide-and-conquer"-strategy, they could regain control again. So what they did after seeing that Zarqawi‘s group was attacking other Iraqis based upon sectarian reasons, they started to over-emphasize the role of al-Qa‘ida in Iraq.

    The "Salafi" fighters started thinking more and more of themselves (especially with this new American media coverage) and started to act as if they have the right to rule over Iraqis and as if they knew Islam better than our Sunni Mashayikh and 'Ulama`.
    They concentrated more and more upon controlling Sunni areas and started implementing their fake version of "Islamic law". Note that they consisted of young fighters without any education in Islamic law and their ranks were filled with corrupt people.

    The local Iraqi resistance groups started to get annoyed by their ugly behavior and the Sunni Mashayikh started to criticize their way.
    As a response these foreign "Salafi“ fighters started to attack local resistance fighters and also Sunni scholars.
    They even attacked the only local "Salafi" resistance group (i.e. Ansar al-Islam).

    At the same time Shi‘a groups were formed to respond to the attacks that were perpetrated by Zarqawi‘s groups. These groups however also attacked normal Sunni groups and the Sunni population.

    In 2005 the "Awakening councils" were formed in the Sunni regions to drive out the foreign fighters. They got also funded by America, but not because America liked them (some of their fighters had also faught against Americans), but rather because it would lead to even greater division.

    In 2006 - after all local resistance groups turned completely against Zarqawi's group (due to their criminal behavior!) - AQI proclaimed the fake "Islamic State of Iraq" (ISI) and this after a fake Shura where the only present were they themselves!

    Their Chief Judge back then was Abu Sulayman al-'Utaybi, who was from "Saudi" Arabia and only 26 years old. Just imagine that these people had no one with any knowledge of Islamic law that they even accepted a 26 year old extreme "Salafi" "student of knowledge" as their Chief Judge!
    Back then there was a video where he was burning some Iraqi Sunnis alive, whom he accused of apostasy. (I guess one can still find this video on the net.)

    And even with all this extremism, he still complained from the high level of corruption that could be found in their group (he even reported how they would steal from Sunnis!) and clarified that this Shura was a fake one and at the end he left them in 2007.

    What happened afterwards is that the "divide-and-conquer"-strategy completely worked out and everyone started to fight with everyone!

    All of this was first started by Zarqawi’s group, who were the first to attack and kill based upon sectarian reasons.

    ISI attacked markets, funerals, busy streets and got completely out of control.
    A lot of these attacks had been claimed by them with proud!
    I still remember an incident were an ied that they had planted on the road against the Iraqi soldiers and police (who back then also committed a lot of oppression) exploded while a group of cars (who were celebrating a wedding) passed and the groom was killed. The video with the bride sitting in the middle of the street (being wounded) and crying (while a car is burning in the back) is still available.
    There was another similar incident, where a lot of people had been killed.
    There were many incidents were they would kill someone from the Awakening councils just to blow up and kill huge numbers of people in their funerals.

    The Iraqi news websites were full of these incidents back then and a lot of videos were uploaded. In many of these cases ISI openly claimed responsibility.

    Since many people were traumatized, some Iraqi youngsters who had suffered a lot during the war (by the Americans and the Iraqi soldiers back then) had developed psychological problems and started joining ISI as a sort of revenge against the whole society.

    This means that ISI with time going on became more and more Iraqi in its members.

    And it is this criminal ISI organization that turned into ISIS in 2014 and killed a lot of people.
    In 2014 they even blew up the Nabi Yunus Mosque. This action clearly indicates disbelief!

    Anyways, there are hundreds of incidents and attacks. Inform yourself.
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 18-02-20, 06:14 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu 'Abdullaah
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

    Don't worry, I'll answer when I get time insha`Allah.

    And what I'm referring to is not one or two incidents. There was a time where there would not pass a single day without such type of attacks and they themselves would claim these attacks.
    You posted to tell me your going to post. Brilliant.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    Abu Sulayman must have forgotten about this thread.
    Don't worry, I'll answer when I get time insha`Allah.

    And what I'm referring to is not one or two incidents. There was a time where there would not pass a single day without such type of attacks and they themselves would claim these attacks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu 'Abdullaah
    replied
    Abu Sulayman must have forgotten about this thread.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu 'Abdullaah
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

    Land of the two rivers.

    Before you deny anything: I had first person contact to people (including children!) who were heavily wounded thanks to their attacks!
    They blew up mosques, funerals, markets and other places!

    Is this not enough for me to be against them?
    When did this happen and by whom? I am unaware of any such attacks.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

    Which country would that be?
    Land of the two rivers.

    Before you deny anything: I had first person contact to people (including children!) who were heavily wounded thanks to their attacks!
    They blew up mosques, funerals, markets and other places!

    Is this not enough for me to be against them?

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu 'Abdullaah
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

    Well, in the country I'm living in the "Salafis" came and killed quite many innocent people (including Sunnis!). They even killed Sunni Mashayikh and 'Ulama`!
    This happened all not really long ago (during my and your lifetime and not before 150 years!). Prior to their coming we have not seen so much sectarian hatred even though there are many different groups (ethnicities, religions and schools of thoughts) in our country.

    So the question again is: What justifies the "Salafis" making everything worse and going as far as killing everyone left and right?

    As for "my groups": Maybe you could tell us who those "groups" are?

    To make it easy for you: A Sunni for me is someone from the 4 Madhahib in Fiqh and Ash'ari, Maturidi or Hanbali in creed.
    Which country would that be?

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

    Wahhabis didn't conquer the entire Muslim world... why are blaming them for the division amongst your own groups? Your groups, self-proclaimed Sunnis, are all divisive but you don't want to talk about that as it goes against your propaganda.
    Well, in the country I'm living in the "Salafis" (to me more precise: "Salafi Jihadis") came and killed quite many innocent people (including Sunnis!). They even killed Sunni Mashayikh and 'Ulama`!
    This happened all not really long ago (during my and your lifetime and not before 150 years!). Prior to their coming we have not seen so much sectarian hatred even though there are many different groups (ethnicities, religions and schools of thoughts) in our country.

    So the question again is: What justifies the "Salafis" making everything worse and going as far as killing everyone left and right?

    As for "my groups": Maybe you could tell us who those "groups" are?

    To make it easy for you: A Sunni for me is someone from the 4 Madhahib in Fiqh and Ash'ari, Maturidi or Hanbali in creed.
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 15-02-20, 10:34 PM.

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  • Abu 'Abdullaah
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

    You really have some weird type of logic!
    So if the Muslims before the Wahhabiyya were not 100 % united (which is obvious and no one denied that in order for you to make this drama!), this does NOT justify the Najdis causing more division! Do you understand that?
    Likewise there is no justification AT ALL for killing thousands of Muslims. Is this so difficult to understand?
    And there is no justification to write books regarding beliefs in a manner and with a content that can be not found in any classical Sunni (Ash'ari / Maturidi / Hanbali) book of creed!

    Is it really necessary to explain to you why it's NOT allowed to make everything worse?
    Wahhabis didn't conquer the entire Muslim world... why are blaming them for the division amongst your own groups? Your groups, self-proclaimed Sunnis, are all divisive but you don't want to talk about that as it goes against your propaganda.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

    If you think there's unity within each of those groups then you're peddling rubbish. They throw each other under the bus all the time.
    You really have some weird type of logic!
    So if the Muslims before the Wahhabiyya [or after them] were [and are] not 100 % united (which is obvious and no one denied that in order for you to make this drama!), this does NOT justify the Najdis causing more division! Do you understand that?
    Likewise there is no justification AT ALL for killing thousands of Muslims (as done by early Najdis and continued by groups like ISIS). Is this so difficult to understand?
    And there is no justification to write books regarding beliefs in a manner and with a content that can not be found in any classical Sunni (Ash'ari / Maturidi / Hanbali) book of creed!

    Is it really necessary to explain to you why it's NOT allowed to make everything worse?
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 15-02-20, 10:22 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu 'Abdullaah
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    The division into Berelvi, Deobandi and Ahle Hadees happened quite obviously AFTER Taqwiyatul Iman was written and is connected to this work.
    Denying that is nothing but ignorance or stubbornness or both.
    If you think there's unity within each of those groups then you're peddling rubbish. They throw each other under the bus all the time.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    The division into Berelvi, Deobandi and Ahle Hadees happened quite obviously AFTER Taqwiyatul Iman was written and is connected to this work.
    Denying that is nothing but ignorance or stubbornness or both.

    Leave a comment:

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