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A Critique of Husam al-Haramayn: How a fatwa split the Ummah

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  • Originally posted by Sunni Ashrafi View Post

    ٧٨٦/٩٢
    المستغاث الا حضرت ال
    له تعالي الصلوٰة والسلام عليك يا رسول الله

    There is a difference between saying that رسول الله is 'a Bashar' and 'A Bashar like us'. No-one denies that رسول الله was physically present on this Earth in the form of a Bashar. Ala Hazrat gives a translation for Surah Kahf, Ayat 110, in Kanzul Imaan: قل انمآ انا بشر مثلكم 'Proclaim, "Physically I am a Human * like you." *Human but not equal to you, in fact the greatest in spiritual status.'
    The translation made by Ala Hazrat explains how
    رسول الله is a Bashar in physical form, but that does not mean that رسول الله is a 'bashar like us', rather رسول الله is higher than all Creation in every aspect.

    The Prophet affirms not only that He is Bashar but also Bashar like us in that ayah, now the problem lies how you interpret "Bashar like us". In your understanding this means negating the status and position of the Prophet as being the best of creation. The likeness is in them being human not one of "status", the disbelievers couldn't conceive of a human being receiving revelation and being chosen as a Prophet of God.

    Jews, christians, athiests, hindus, sikhs etc are bashar just like us, affirming this however doesn't mean that we're all muslims.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
      Deviant Beliefs of Ahmad Raza Khan by Mufti Taqi Usmani:



      Source of the Fatwa:

      https://www.deoband.org/2010/07/aqid...-the-barelwis/
      I have at most respect for Mufti Taqi Usmani sahab, but I will never go with the fatawas of contemporary brelwi-deobandi Scholars against each other --- it amazes me to see how british folks are this much interested in this, I mean if you are interested, read the books of elders of both, why rely on molvis like usman?

      I have said this millions of times, whatever practices/beliefs brelwis follow, that ain't new -- Abu Sulayman has posted lots of material in this thread.

      The main issue is fatwa of Allama Ahmad Raza Khan against deobandi elders, this can't be undone now, lots of decades have passed ----- but at least what today deobandi scholars could do is to distance themselves or stop publishing those problematic statements ----- I can guarantee that most of those shouting didn't even read them, I have read all those statements, they are Problematic ----- they should be taken out of the books.

      Regarding the beliefs of brelwis, I don't see much difference in deobandi-brelwi beliefs ---- difference in few things can be solved by making judge the scholars before them in sub continent ----- elders of both were students of Haji Imdadullah Muhajir Makki, he also wrote a book to address the issues between the two. ----- The book slightly favors brelwi views -----

      ​​​​​​​Another point, the brelwis are open about their beliefs and views --- the deobandis either hide or there's difference of opinion among them, they are not so open or will give you different answers, kinda play diplomatic. ----- like the brelwis openly criticizes house of saud and najdi scholars, deobandis play safe, they might tell me something and different thing to a saudi. (and the reason deobandi madrassas receive saudis funding) -------- even today when there are all talks of recognizing Israel by Arab regimes (specially Saudi Arabia), the deobandi Maulanas have kept their mouths close.
      "Europe died in Bosnia and was buried in Syria. Bodies of innocent children washing ashore are the
      western civilization's tombstones"


      Rajab Tayyab Erdogan

      Comment


      • Originally posted by AdoonkaAlle View Post


        The Prophet affirms not only that He is Bashar but also Bashar like us in that ayah, now the problem lies how you interpret "Bashar like us". In your understanding this means negating the status and position of the Prophet as being the best of creation. The likeness is in them being human not one of "status", the disbelievers couldn't conceive of a human being receiving revelation and being chosen as a Prophet of God.

        Jews, christians, athiests, hindus, sikhs etc are bashar just like us, affirming this however doesn't mean that we're all muslims.
        ٧٨٦/٩٢
        المستغاث الا حضرت الله تعالي الصلوٰة والسلام عليك يا رسول الله


        Sahih Bukhari, Hadith 1963:
        عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ ‏"‏ لاَ تُوَاصِلُوا، فَأَيُّكُمْ إِذَا أَرَادَ أَنْ يُوَاصِلَ فَلْيُوَاصِلْ حَتَّى السَّحَرِ ‏"‏‏.‏ قَالُوا فَإِنَّكَ تُوَاصِلُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ إِنِّي لَسْتُ كَهَيْئَتِكُمْ، إِنِّي أَبِيتُ لِي مُطْعِمٌ يُطْعِمُنِي وَسَاقٍ يَسْقِينِ ‏"‏‏.‏

        'Narrated Abu Sa`id: That he had heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, "Do not fast continuously (practice Al-Wisal), and if you intend to lengthen your fast, then carry it on only till the Suhur (before the following dawn)." The people said to him, "But you practice (Al-Wisal), O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)!" He replied, "I am not similar to you, for during my sleep I have One Who makes me eat and drink."

        Sahih Bukhari, Hadith 1965:
        أَنَّ أَبَا هُرَيْرَةَ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ قَالَ نَهَى رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم عَنِ الْوِصَالِ فِي الصَّوْمِ فَقَالَ لَهُ رَجُلٌ مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ إِنَّكَ تُوَاصِلُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ قَالَ ‏"‏ وَأَيُّكُمْ مِثْلِي إِنِّي أَبِيتُ يُطْعِمُنِي رَبِّي وَيَسْقِينِ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَلَمَّا أَبَوْا أَنْ يَنْتَهُوا عَنِ الْوِصَالِ وَاصَلَ بِهِمْ يَوْمًا ثُمَّ يَوْمًا، ثُمَّ رَأَوُا الْهِلاَلَ، فَقَالَ ‏"‏ لَوْ تَأَخَّرَ لَزِدْتُكُمْ ‏"‏‏.‏ كَالتَّنْكِيلِ لَهُمْ، حِينَ أَبَوْا أَنْ يَنْتَهُوا‏.‏
        Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) forbade Al-Wisal (fasting continuously) in fasting. So, one of the Muslims said to him, "But you practice Al- Wisal. O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)!" The Prophet (ﷺ) replied, "Who amongst you is similar to me? I am given food and drink during my sleep by my Lord." So, when the people refused to stop Al-Wisal (fasting continuously), the Prophet (ﷺ) fasted day and night continuously along with them for a day and then another day and then they saw the crescent moon (of the month of Shawwal). The Prophet (ﷺ) said to them (angrily), "If It (the crescent) had not appeared, I would have made you fast for a longer period." That was as a punishment for them when they refused to stop (practicing Al-Wisal).

        There is a difference between رسول الله ﷺ saying 'انا بشر مثلكم' and others saying it. The Ayat begins with the command, قل: 'Proclaim'. Allah is ordering رسول الله ﷺ to say the words 'انا بشر مثلكم', Allah did not Himself say that رسول الله ﷺ is like them, rather He ordered رسول الله ﷺ to say: 'Physically I am a Human like you.' This was in order to make clear the point that only رسول الله ﷺ has the right to say those words when referring to themselves, no-one else has the right to refer to رسول الله ﷺ in such a manner by saying he is a 'bashar like us.' The two Sahih Hadith I provided quite clearly illustrate that point, رسول الله ﷺ is not like us. I will say it again: learn to talk about your Prophet with respect.



        Comment


        • Originally posted by imran1976 View Post
          I have at most respect for Mufti Taqi Usmani sahab, but I will never go with the fatawas of contemporary brelwi-deobandi Scholars against each other --- it amazes me to see how british folks are this much interested in this, I mean if you are interested, read the books of elders of both, why rely on molvis like usman?

          I have said this millions of times, whatever practices/beliefs brelwis follow, that ain't new -- Abu Sulayman has posted lots of material in this thread.

          The main issue is fatwa of Allama Ahmad Raza Khan against deobandi elders, this can't be undone now, lots of decades have passed ----- but at least what today deobandi scholars could do is to distance themselves or stop publishing those problematic statements ----- I can guarantee that most of those shouting didn't even read them, I have read all those statements, they are Problematic ----- they should be taken out of the books.

          Regarding the beliefs of brelwis, I don't see much difference in deobandi-brelwi beliefs ---- difference in few things can be solved by making judge the scholars before them in sub continent ----- elders of both were students of Haji Imdadullah Muhajir Makki, he also wrote a book to address the issues between the two. ----- The book slightly favors brelwi views -----

          Another point, the brelwis are open about their beliefs and views --- the deobandis either hide or there's difference of opinion among them, they are not so open or will give you different answers, kinda play diplomatic. ----- like the brelwis openly criticizes house of saud and najdi scholars, deobandis play safe, they might tell me something and different thing to a saudi. (and the reason deobandi madrassas receive saudis funding) -------- even today when there are all talks of recognizing Israel by Arab regimes (specially Saudi Arabia), the deobandi Maulanas have kept their mouths close.
          ٧٨٦/٩٢
          المستغاث الا حضرت الله تعالي الصلوٰة والسلام عليك يا رسول الله


          Don't ramble on about things which you have no understanding about, and don't try to teach me about what the Heretics of Deoband have written in their books, I speak Urdu and have read their Heretical works. Look on this thread, you'll find direct quotes from their books in Urdu, which I typed out myself, and translated into English. If you regard those heretical statements, which are full of the vilest form of Kufr, to be merely ''problematic', then I don't believe you have any Imaan in you. When Ashraf Ali Thanwi says in Hifzul Imaan, p. 15:
          یہ کہ آپ کی ذات مقدسہ پر علم غیب کا حکم کیا جانا اگر بقول زید صحیح ہو تو دریافت طلب یہ امر ہےکہ اس غیب سے مراد بعض غیب ہے یا کل غیب اگر بعض علوم غیبیہ مراد ہیں تو اسمیں حضور کی ہی کیا تخصیص ہے ایسا علم غیب تو زید و عمر و بلکہ ہر صبی و مجنون بلکہ جمیع حیوانات و بہائم کے لئے بھی حاصل ہے
          "If, according to the questioner, the declaration that the Holy Prophet ﷺ possesses unseen knowledge is correct, then the question put to this person is: by ‘Unseen Knowledge’ does he mean total knowledge or partial knowledge? If his intention were to refer to partial knowledge, then how is there anything unique about the Holy Prophet ﷺ because of this? Such unseen knowledge is possessed by every ordinary person, every child and insane person, even all animals possess such knowledge."

          When Khalil Ahmad Ambethwi says in Baraheen-e-Qati'ah, p.55:

          از علم و عقل ہے الحاص غور کرنا چاہئے کہ شیطان و ملک الموت کا حال دیکہکر علم محیط زمین کا فخرعالم کو خلاف نصوص قطعیہ کے دلائل محض قیاس فاسدہ سے ثابت کرنا شرک نہیں تو کونسا ایمان کا حصہ ہے شیطان اور ملک الموت کو یہ وسعت نص سے ثابت ہوئی فخر عالم کی وسعت علم کی کونسی نص قطعی ہے
          "Keeping knowledge and common sense in mind, one should consider the following: after seeing the condition of Shaytan and Malak-ul-Maut, if to then try to prove the Unseen Knowledge of the Holy Prophet ﷺfrom the Qur’an and Hadith isn’t Shirk, then what part of Imaan is it? The Unseen Knowledge of Shaytan and Malak-ul-Maut is supported by the Qur’an and Hadith, what evidence is there in the Qur’an and Hadith to prove the existence of the Unseen Knowledge of the Holy Prophet ﷺ?"

          When Rashid Ahmad Gangohi says in Fatawa Rasheediya, vol. 2, p. 12:

          لفظ رحمة للعالمین صفت خاصہ رسول اللہ صلی اللہ علیہ و سلم کی نہیں ہے بلکہ دیگر اولیاء و انبیا اور علماء ربانیین بھی موجب رحمت عالم ہوتے ہیں
          "The title ‘Mercy to all the Worlds’ is not a unique attribute of the Holy Prophet ﷺ, in fact Saints and Prophets and righteous ‘Ulama are also a cause of bringing mercy to the World ( and can therefore also be referred to as 'Mercy to all the Worlds.’)"

          When Qasim Nanotwi says in Tahzeer-un-Nas, p.25:

          اگر بالفرض بعض زمانہ نبوی صلی اللہ علیہ و سلم میں کوئی نبی پیدا ہو تو پھر بھی خاتمیت محمدی میں کچھ فرق نہ آئیگا
          “If, for argument’s sake, after the time of the Holy Prophet ﷺ, another Prophet is born, then no change will occur in the finality of Prophethood of the Holy Prophet ﷺ.”

          When Ismail Dehlwi says in Taqwiyatul Imaan, p. 59:

          یعنی انسان آپس میں سب بہائی ہیں جو بڑا بزرگ ہو وہ بڑا بہائی ہے سو اس کی بڑے بہائی کی سی تعظیم کیجئے اور مالک سب کا اللہ ہے بندگی اسی کو چاہیے اس حدیٹ سے معلوم ہوا کہ اولیاء و انبیاء امام اور امام زادے پیر اور شہید یعنی جتنے اللہ کے مقرب بندے ہیں وہ سب انسان ہی ہیں اور بندے عاجز اور ہمارے بہائی مگر اللہ نے ان کو بڑائی دی وہ بڑے بہائی ہوئے
          ”Therefore, all human beings are brothers to each other. A person with a higher status is like an elder brother, so he should me respected like an elder brother, and Allah is the owner of everything, He alone should be worshipped. From this hadith we come to know that Awliya and Prophets, Imams and their sons, Masha’ikh and martyrs, in other words, all those close to Allah, are all human and powerless and our brothers, But Allah has elevated their status, so they are our elder brothers.

          Are all these vile, heretical statements just 'problematic'. Keep your mouth shut about things you don't understand, you don't have the faintest idea as to what Kufr the Deobandi Khabeeth have written in their books and believe in. Did you think people would think you're clever when you said 'I have read all those statements,' If you have truly read all the aforementioned statements and still only believe that they're 'problematic', then may Allah curse you for siding with those who insult رسول الله ﷺ.

          I have at most respect for Mufti Taqi Usmani sahab,
          You have respect for the Khabeeth who regards Kafirs like Ashraf Ali Thanwi and Qasim Nanotwi as Awliya Allah, may Allah curse you for respecting a man who calls the insulters of رسول الله ﷺ Awliya Allah. This is why you should keep your mouth shut when you don't know what you're talking about, first understand what the Deobandi Kafirs have actually written in their works, which their followers still believe in to this day and have made no effort to remove these statements, then pretend like you actually know what you're talking about.
          Last edited by Sunni Ashrafi; 02-12-20, 12:12 PM.

          Comment


          • You can carry this over to regular people (i.e. not prophets or messengers).

            Are you similar to IMAM ABU HANIFAH, huh?! You are not worth the dust on his shoes!!! WALIS are not regular people! They are blessed with miracles!!!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Sunni Ashrafi View Post

              ٧٨٦/٩٢
              المستغاث الا حضرت الله تعالي الصلوٰة والسلام عليك يا رسول الله


              Don't ramble on about things which you have no understanding about, and don't try to teach me about what the Heretics of Deoband have written in their books, I speak Urdu and have read their Heretical works. Look on this thread, you'll find direct quotes from their books in Urdu, which I typed out myself, and translated into English. If you regard those heretical statements, which are full of the vilest form of Kufr, to be merely ''problematic', then I don't believe you have any Imaan in you. When Ashraf Ali Thanwi says in Hifzul Imaan, p. 15:
              یہ کہ آپ کی ذات مقدسہ پر علم غیب کا حکم کیا جانا اگر بقول زید صحیح ہو تو دریافت طلب یہ امر ہےکہ اس غیب سے مراد بعض غیب ہے یا کل غیب اگر بعض علوم غیبیہ مراد ہیں تو اسمیں حضور کی ہی کیا تخصیص ہے ایسا علم غیب تو زید و عمر و بلکہ ہر صبی و مجنون بلکہ جمیع حیوانات و بہائم کے لئے بھی حاصل ہے
              "If, according to the questioner, the declaration that the Holy Prophet ﷺ possesses unseen knowledge is correct, then the question put to this person is: by ‘Unseen Knowledge’ does he mean total knowledge or partial knowledge? If his intention were to refer to partial knowledge, then how is there anything unique about the Holy Prophet ﷺ because of this? Such unseen knowledge is possessed by every ordinary person, every child and insane person, even all animals possess such knowledge."

              When Khalil Ahmad Ambethwi says in Baraheen-e-Qati'ah, p.55:

              از علم و عقل ہے الحاص غور کرنا چاہئے کہ شیطان و ملک الموت کا حال دیکہکر علم محیط زمین کا فخرعالم کو خلاف نصوص قطعیہ کے دلائل محض قیاس فاسدہ سے ثابت کرنا شرک نہیں تو کونسا ایمان کا حصہ ہے شیطان اور ملک الموت کو یہ وسعت نص سے ثابت ہوئی فخر عالم کی وسعت علم کی کونسی نص قطعی ہے
              "Keeping knowledge and common sense in mind, one should consider the following: after seeing the condition of Shaytan and Malak-ul-Maut, if to then try to prove the Unseen Knowledge of the Holy Prophet ﷺfrom the Qur’an and Hadith isn’t Shirk, then what part of Imaan is it? The Unseen Knowledge of Shaytan and Malak-ul-Maut is supported by the Qur’an and Hadith, what evidence is there in the Qur’an and Hadith to prove the existence of the Unseen Knowledge of the Holy Prophet ﷺ?"

              When Rashid Ahmad Gangohi says in Fatawa Rasheediya, vol. 2, p. 12:

              لفظ رحمة للعالمین صفت خاصہ رسول اللہ صلی اللہ علیہ و سلم کی نہیں ہے بلکہ دیگر اولیاء و انبیا اور علماء ربانیین بھی موجب رحمت عالم ہوتے ہیں
              "The title ‘Mercy to all the Worlds’ is not a unique attribute of the Holy Prophet ﷺ, in fact Saints and Prophets and righteous ‘Ulama are also a cause of bringing mercy to the World ( and can therefore also be referred to as 'Mercy to all the Worlds.’)"

              When Qasim Nanotwi says in Tahzeer-un-Nas, p.25:

              اگر بالفرض بعض زمانہ نبوی صلی اللہ علیہ و سلم میں کوئی نبی پیدا ہو تو پھر بھی خاتمیت محمدی میں کچھ فرق نہ آئیگا
              “If, for argument’s sake, after the time of the Holy Prophet ﷺ, another Prophet is born, then no change will occur in the finality of Prophethood of the Holy Prophet ﷺ.”

              When Ismail Dehlwi says in Taqwiyatul Imaan, p. 59:

              یعنی انسان آپس میں سب بہائی ہیں جو بڑا بزرگ ہو وہ بڑا بہائی ہے سو اس کی بڑے بہائی کی سی تعظیم کیجئے اور مالک سب کا اللہ ہے بندگی اسی کو چاہیے اس حدیٹ سے معلوم ہوا کہ اولیاء و انبیاء امام اور امام زادے پیر اور شہید یعنی جتنے اللہ کے مقرب بندے ہیں وہ سب انسان ہی ہیں اور بندے عاجز اور ہمارے بہائی مگر اللہ نے ان کو بڑائی دی وہ بڑے بہائی ہوئے
              ”Therefore, all human beings are brothers to each other. A person with a higher status is like an elder brother, so he should me respected like an elder brother, and Allah is the owner of everything, He alone should be worshipped. From this hadith we come to know that Awliya and Prophets, Imams and their sons, Masha’ikh and martyrs, in other words, all those close to Allah, are all human and powerless and our brothers, But Allah has elevated their status, so they are our elder brothers.

              Are all these vile, heretical statements just 'problematic'. Keep your mouth shut about things you don't understand, you don't have the faintest idea as to what Kufr the Deobandi Khabeeth have written in their books and believe in. Did you think people would think you're clever when you said 'I have read all those statements,' If you have truly read all the aforementioned statements and still only believe that they're 'problematic', then may Allah curse you for siding with those who insult رسول الله ﷺ.


              You have respect for the Khabeeth who regards Kafirs like Ashraf Ali Thanwi and Qasim Nanotwi as Awliya Allah, may Allah curse you for respecting a man who calls the insulters of رسول الله ﷺ Awliya Allah. This is why you should keep your mouth shut when you don't know what you're talking about, first understand what the Deobandi Kafirs have actually written in their works, which their followers still believe in to this day and have made no effort to remove these statements, then pretend like you actually know what you're talking about.
              and you think I will keep my mouth shut?

              listen clown! I ain't a slave of brelwi-deobandi molvis, these murgha+halwa khor molvis are wasting the time of people of sub continent ----- the extremist molvis from both side must be put behind the bars.

              My praise for Pakistani Scholars is based on their work and I don't care if he is a deobandi or a brelwi.
              just like there's problem with some statements in the books of deobandis, there's problem with few things with brelwis as well, sort out them instead of wasting public time with useless munazaras.

              My advice for you: go to mental hospital next to services hospital (if you in Lahore), you seriously need to get your bhaija sort out.

              and btw, if we talk about quality work,
              deobandis writing is better than brelwis.
              "Europe died in Bosnia and was buried in Syria. Bodies of innocent children washing ashore are the
              western civilization's tombstones"


              Rajab Tayyab Erdogan

              Comment


              • Originally posted by imran1976 View Post

                and you think I will keep my mouth shut?

                listen clown! I ain't a slave of brelwi-deobandi molvis, these murgha+halwa khor molvis are wasting the time of people of sub continent ----- the extremist molvis from both side must be put behind the bars.

                My praise for Pakistani Scholars is based on their work and I don't care if he is a deobandi or a brelwi.
                just like there's problem with some statements in the books of deobandis, there's problem with few things with brelwis as well, sort out them instead of wasting public time with useless munazaras.

                My advice for you: go to mental hospital next to services hospital (if you in Lahore), you seriously need to get your bhaija sort out.

                and btw, if we talk about quality work,
                deobandis writing is better than brelwis.
                Are you blind or are you so ignorant that you refuse to accept what is in front of your own eyes. The quotes I've just written from the books of the Deobandi Molvis are Kufr, containing the worst insults to رسول الله ﷺ , and you say they're 'problematic.' With which face can you call yourself a Muslim when you downplay the insults made to رسول الله ﷺ and say they're just 'problematic'. Open your eyes and look carefully at this statement of Qasim Nanotwi in Tahzeer-un-Nas, p.25:
                اگر بالفرض بعض زمانہ نبوی صلی اللہ علیہ و سلم میں کوئی نبی پیدا ہو تو پھر بھی خاتمیت محمدی میں کچھ فرق نہ آئیگا
                “If, for argument’s sake, after the time of the Holy Prophet ﷺ, another Prophet is born, then no change will occur in the finality of Prophethood of the Holy Prophet ﷺ.

                This Khinzeer said that if another Prophet is born after رسول الله ﷺ then رسول الله ﷺ will still be the last Prophet, no problem. Are you saying that someone who makes such a statement is not a Kafir, because if you say that the Mardood who makes the claim that another Prophet can be born after رسول الله ﷺ is not a Kafir, then you have no right to call yourself a Muslim. I've seen some ignorant people on this forum, but I've never seen someone so ignorant that when clear-cut statements of Kufr are in front of their face, they still respect the Deobandis and make an attempt to defend them. I challenge you to find one example from any one of the books written by Ala Hazrat which contains even the slightest form of disrespect towards رسول الله ﷺ , never mind Kufr, you won't find a single statement.

                اہل سنت کا ہے بیڑا پار اصحاب حضور
                نجم ہیں اور ناؤ ہے عترت رسول اللہ کی

                Comment


                • Sunni Ashrafi why you challenging me when I have no issues with the works of Allama Ahmad Raza Khan ---- I also understand why he gave fatwa against deobandi elders -- 100+ years have passed, bakhsh doa is Qoam ko, we ain't interested in your munazaras and fatwa fatwa games.

                  don't bother posting the statements for me, I have read each and everything many years ago.

                  Musalman ummat are facing different challenges today, we need to focus on them instead of fighting over 100+ years old disputes between two groups.

                  Deobandi elders wrote things in their books which ain't acceptable, it was out of human error, intentional or whatever -- Allama Ahmad Raza gave fatwa of kufr against them, Khallas!

                  what's the issue now?
                  or you both want this issue to remain alive and keep fighting like stupids and the whole world laughs on you ----
                  "Europe died in Bosnia and was buried in Syria. Bodies of innocent children washing ashore are the
                  western civilization's tombstones"


                  Rajab Tayyab Erdogan

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by imran1976 View Post
                    Sunni Ashrafi why you challenging me when I have no issues with the works of Allama Ahmad Raza Khan ---- I also understand why he gave fatwa against deobandi elders -- 100+ years have passed, bakhsh doa is Qoam ko, we ain't interested in your munazaras and fatwa fatwa games.

                    don't bother posting the statements for me, I have read each and everything many years ago.

                    Musalman ummat are facing different challenges today, we need to focus on them instead of fighting over 100+ years old disputes between two groups.

                    Deobandi elders wrote things in their books which ain't acceptable, it was out of human error, intentional or whatever -- Allama Ahmad Raza gave fatwa of kufr against them, Khallas!

                    what's the issue now?
                    or you both want this issue to remain alive and keep fighting like stupids and the whole world laughs on you ----
                    ٧٨٦/٩٢
                    المستغاث الا حضرت الله تعالي الصلوٰة والسلام عليك يا رسول الله


                    I don't care if 1000 years have passed, any form of disrespect towards رسول الله ﷺ is unforgivable. The Deobandis have had their chance to remove these statements from their books, they haven't, instead they continue to print these works of Kufr and confuse innocent Sunnis. Don't try to play off what the Deobandis wrote in their books as 'human error', you don't accidentally say that the knowledge of رسول الله ﷺ is equal to the knowledge of animals and insane people, like Ashraf Ali Thanwi said in Hifzul Imaan,p. 16. Hifzul Imaan is still being printed to this day, with that heretical statement in it, has your
                    Mufti Taqi Usmani sahab
                    whom you have the
                    utmost respect for
                    ever spoken against this Kufr of Ashraf Ali Thanwi, no, instead he refers to him as Hakeem-ul-Ummat, so don't tell me about what the Ummat needs to do. It is the duty of the Ummat to defend the honour of
                    رسول الله ﷺ from their enemies, and that is what we will continue to do until the Deobandis accept that such statements are Kufr and remove them from their books. And if, as you say, the Kufr in these books is a result of 'human error', then why haven't the Deobandis removed this Kufr in the 114 years since the Fatwa of Ala Hazrat was issued and signed by the Ulama of Haramayn Sharifayn in Hussamul Haramayn in 1906. Name one Deobandi Molvi who has given a Fatwa declaring the aforementioned statements to be Kufr, you won't find a single one.
                    Khallas!
                    When the Deobandis repent of this Kufr and remove it from their books, and accept that anyone who makes such a statement is a Kafir, then say 'Khallas', in the meantime learn to speak English before trying to teach me
                    fighting like stupids and the whole world laughs on you
                    such eloquent English. Try thinking before you speak.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Sunni Ashrafi View Post
                      [in the meantime learn to speak English before trying to teach me [/SIZE] such eloquent English. Try thinking before you speak.
                      I don't give two hoots to english language --- you got my statement thru my eloquent english, this is more than enough --- It seems that you are a big fan of white man's language, mentally still a slave.

                      yes keep fighting over issues which doesn't concern the ummah, good for your health.
                      "Europe died in Bosnia and was buried in Syria. Bodies of innocent children washing ashore are the
                      western civilization's tombstones"


                      Rajab Tayyab Erdogan

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by imran1976 View Post

                        I don't give two hoots to english language --- you got my statement thru my eloquent english, this is more than enough --- It seems that you are a big fan of white man's language, mentally still a slave.

                        yes keep fighting over issues which doesn't concern the ummah, good for your health.
                        ٧٨٦/٩٢
                        المستغاث الا حضرت الله تعالي الصلوٰة والسلام عليك يا رسول الله


                        I find it interesting how you ignored everything else in my post and just focused on my final statement, and then made the ridiculous claim that speaking English means someone is 'mentally still a slave.' You didn't reply to anything else I said because you know you don't have an answer, not a single Deobandi Molvi has spoken against the Kufr written in the books of their 'scholars', and they never will. The fact that you consider the insults made towards رسول الله ﷺ to be an issue which 'doesn't concern the ummah' really shows the level of Imaan you possess. Sahih Bukhari, Hadith 15:

                        عَنْ أَنَسٍ، قَالَ قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ لاَ يُؤْمِنُ أَحَدُكُمْ حَتَّى أَكُونَ أَحَبَّ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ وَالِدِهِ وَوَلَدِهِ وَالنَّاسِ أَجْمَعِينَ ‏"‏‏.‏
                        Narrated Anas: The Prophet (ﷺ) said "None of you will have faith till he loves me more than his father, his children and all mankind."

                        When someone loves
                        رسول الله ﷺ more than all mankind, will they sit back and allow anyone to insult رسول الله ﷺ. It is a sign of someone's Imaan when they speak against the enemies of رسول الله ﷺ, and a sign of someone's lack thereof when they make the disgusting claim that the insults made towards رسول الله ﷺ are 'issues which don't concern the ummah.' It's quite clear to me as to who and what you really are, call yourself what you want, anyone with such a lack of respect for رسول الله ﷺ is not a Muslim.




                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Sunni Ashrafi View Post
                          ٧٨٦/٩٢
                          المستغاث الا حضرت الله تعالي الصلوٰة والسلام عليك يا رسول الله


                          Sahih Bukhari, Hadith 1963:
                          عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ أَنَّهُ سَمِعَ النَّبِيَّ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ ‏"‏ لاَ تُوَاصِلُوا، فَأَيُّكُمْ إِذَا أَرَادَ أَنْ يُوَاصِلَ فَلْيُوَاصِلْ حَتَّى السَّحَرِ ‏"‏‏.‏ قَالُوا فَإِنَّكَ تُوَاصِلُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ إِنِّي لَسْتُ كَهَيْئَتِكُمْ، إِنِّي أَبِيتُ لِي مُطْعِمٌ يُطْعِمُنِي وَسَاقٍ يَسْقِينِ ‏"‏‏.‏
                          'Narrated Abu Sa`id: That he had heard the Prophet (ﷺ) saying, "Do not fast continuously (practice Al-Wisal), and if you intend to lengthen your fast, then carry it on only till the Suhur (before the following dawn)." The people said to him, "But you practice (Al-Wisal), O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)!" He replied, "I am not similar to you, for during my sleep I have One Who makes me eat and drink."

                          Sahih Bukhari, Hadith 1965:
                          أَنَّ أَبَا هُرَيْرَةَ ـ رضى الله عنه ـ قَالَ نَهَى رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم عَنِ الْوِصَالِ فِي الصَّوْمِ فَقَالَ لَهُ رَجُلٌ مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ إِنَّكَ تُوَاصِلُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ قَالَ ‏"‏ وَأَيُّكُمْ مِثْلِي إِنِّي أَبِيتُ يُطْعِمُنِي رَبِّي وَيَسْقِينِ ‏"‏‏.‏ فَلَمَّا أَبَوْا أَنْ يَنْتَهُوا عَنِ الْوِصَالِ وَاصَلَ بِهِمْ يَوْمًا ثُمَّ يَوْمًا، ثُمَّ رَأَوُا الْهِلاَلَ، فَقَالَ ‏"‏ لَوْ تَأَخَّرَ لَزِدْتُكُمْ ‏"‏‏.‏ كَالتَّنْكِيلِ لَهُمْ، حِينَ أَبَوْا أَنْ يَنْتَهُوا‏.‏
                          Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) forbade Al-Wisal (fasting continuously) in fasting. So, one of the Muslims said to him, "But you practice Al- Wisal. O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)!" The Prophet (ﷺ) replied, "Who amongst you is similar to me? I am given food and drink during my sleep by my Lord." So, when the people refused to stop Al-Wisal (fasting continuously), the Prophet (ﷺ) fasted day and night continuously along with them for a day and then another day and then they saw the crescent moon (of the month of Shawwal). The Prophet (ﷺ) said to them (angrily), "If It (the crescent) had not appeared, I would have made you fast for a longer period." That was as a punishment for them when they refused to stop (practicing Al-Wisal).
                          1.) Umar reported: I saw the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, spend the entire day suffering from hunger. The Prophet could not find even the worst dates with which to fill his stomach. Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2978

                          2.) Abu Talhah reported: We complained about hunger to the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, and we lifted our garments to reveal stones tied to our stomachs, so the Messenger of Allah lifted his garment to reveal two stones. Sunan al-Tirmidhī 2371

                          3.) Abu Huraira reported that Allaah's Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) went out (of his house) one day or one night, and there he found Abu Bakr and 'Umar also. He said: What has brought you out of your houses at this hour? They said: Allaah's Messenger, it is hunger. Thereupon he said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, what has brought you out has brought me out too; get up. Sahih Muslim 5055


                          Are the hadith that both you and me cited contradicting each other ? the answer is no and as i said before the problem here is one of interpretation, whereby you then use it to support what you're already convinced is the "correct understanding".

                          Originally posted by Sunni Ashrafi View Post

                          There is a difference between رسول الله ﷺ saying 'انا بشر مثلكم' and others saying it. The Ayat begins with the command, قل: 'Proclaim'. Allah is ordering رسول الله ﷺ to say the words 'انا بشر مثلكم', Allah did not Himself say that رسول الله ﷺ is like them, rather He ordered رسول الله ﷺ to say: 'Physically I am a Human like you.' This was in order to make clear the point that only رسول الله ﷺ has the right to say those words when referring to themselves, no-one else has the right to refer to رسول الله ﷺ in such a manner by saying he is a 'bashar like us.' The two Sahih Hadith I provided quite clearly illustrate that point, رسول الله ﷺ is not like us. I will say it again: learn to talk about your Prophet with respect.




                          Say (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم): "Verily I am commanded to worship Allâh (Alone) by obeying Him and doing religious deeds sincerely for His sake only. (39:11)

                          According to your understanding When Allah commands the Prophet to inform the people to worship Allah alone, seek His forgiveness, etc then no one but the Prophet is allowed to say these commands ?


                          Last edited by AdoonkaAlle; 02-12-20, 05:17 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Gustakhi!

                            -_-

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sunni Ashrafi View Post

                              ٧٨٦/٩٢
                              المستغاث الا حضرت الله تعالي الصلوٰة والسلام عليك يا رسول الله


                              [SIZE=12px]I find it interesting how you ignored everything else in my post and just focused on my final statement, and then made the ridiculous claim that speaking English means someone is 'mentally still a slave.' You didn't reply to anything else
                              I am not even reading what you are posting, so responding is out of question --- and I know what you both groups write, it's nothing new, it has become like a broken record. --- who's got the time and energy to get involve in your useless time wasting activities --- you both want to keep the tussle alive, as this generates funds .....

                              I am not some Tom sitting in london or paris, I am from the place where these two groups were born and have grown up with them (listening to their arguments) --- I know very well the extremists from both side and I know very well how to handle them.

                              I think it was stupid of you to bring my english speaking skills in your post (didn't this sound ridiculous?) --- I am not into english grammar and composition competition ---

                              listen takfiri boy, your types are very close minded sectarian buffoons, talking with your types (whichever or whatever sect) is very difficult --



                              "Europe died in Bosnia and was buried in Syria. Bodies of innocent children washing ashore are the
                              western civilization's tombstones"


                              Rajab Tayyab Erdogan

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by imran1976 View Post
                                I am not even reading what you are posting, so responding is out of question --- and I know what you both groups write, it's nothing new, it has become like a broken record. --- who's got the time and energy to get involve in your useless time wasting activities --- you both want to keep the tussle alive, as this generates funds .....

                                I am not some Tom sitting in london or paris, I am from the place where these two groups were born and have grown up with them (listening to their arguments) --- I know very well the extremists from both side and I know very well how to handle them.

                                I think it was stupid of you to bring my english speaking skills in your post (didn't this sound ridiculous?) --- I am not into english grammar and composition competition ---

                                listen takfiri boy, your types are very close minded sectarian buffoons, talking with your types (whichever or whatever sect) is very difficult --


                                ٧٨٦/٩٢
                                المستغاث الا حضرت الله تعالي الصلوٰة والسلام عليك يا رسول الله


                                Stop being so dramatic, you did read my entire post, before deciding to only quote some of it in your reply and leave the rest out, I wonder why. If you're so rightly-guided as you think then answer one question: Is the person who insults رسول الله ﷺ and then refuses to repent a Kafir or not.

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