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A Critique of Husam al-Haramayn: How a fatwa split the Ummah

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  • AmantuBillahi
    replied
    Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    I don't necessarily disagree with this. There was even an instance towards the latter part of the video where they criticized Asrar Rashid for nodding his head to a Nasheed which included an Istigatha of Abdul Qadr al-Jilanee(rah). However, I would be curious to hear how the Deobandis respond to these allegation. I'm sure they don't view themselves as deviating from Maturidi/Ahl al-Sunnah on this issue.


    Skip to 59:00.

    "You know people's misunderstanding about Barelvism is that it's about Rasulullaah(saws), and I will make a separate one (video) on this. Ahmad Ridha Khan in Hadaya ki Bakshish he talks about Shaykh Abdul Qadr al-Jilani(rah) who was a pious person, but they literally worship him. (Speaks Urdu..) From Allah to Muhammad(saws) to you O' Abdul Qadr al-Jilanee: "You've got control of the Heavens and the Earth!". La Howla wa la Quwatta illa Billah. This is basically opening the door..(to Kufr and Shirk)"

    Then comes the video of Asrar Rashid sitting on a boat in the middle of the ocean with the subtitles:

    "O Abdal Qadir! Give us something for Allah's Sake"
    (Shaykh Abdul Qadir Jilani RA is buried in Baghdad. Asrar calls out to him from Africa)

    "Why you calling Abdul Qadr when you can call al-Qadirya? Anyway carry on. Astaghfirullah.."

    I could have swore I heard them speaking about the Istigatha debate between Asrar Rashid and Abdur Rahman Hassan. From what I remember they were siding with Ustadh Abdur Rahman and said they would make a video clarifying Asrar's mistakes.
    Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 29-03-20, 02:05 AM.

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  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    What will Deobandis do and say regarding statements by known Sunni scholars [of the past], which are clearly not in line with their thinking? An example:

    Imam Ibn al-Hajj al-'Abdari [al-Maliki] (d. 737 AH) said in his al-Madkhal [after mentioning that the one who takes the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - as a means and seeks aid with him will not be refused nor disappointed] (translation taken from this article: Tawassul and Istighatha by Imฤm Ibn al-Hฤjj al-`Abdarฤซ):
    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Imam Ibn al-Hajj (d. 737 AH) also said a little bit later in his al-Madkhal:
    I still remember that there was an article on a known SJ website where it was explicitly claimed that the above quoted book (i.e. al-Madkhal [ila Tanmiyyat al-A'mal bi Tahsin al-Niyyat...]) contains "Shirk akbar" (!) and this is obviously what every Najdi would claim.

    But let's see how a real scholar viewed the above mentioned book:

    Imam Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani (d. 852 AH) mentioned the book al-Madkhal in his al-Durar al-Kamina after mentioning the name of Imam Ibn al-Hajj and then said:

    ูƒุซูŠุฑ ุงู„ููˆุงุฆุฏ ูƒุดู ููŠู‡ ุนู† ู…ุนุงูŠุจ ูˆุจุฏุน ูŠูุนู„ู‡ุง ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ูˆูŠุชุณุงู‡ู„ูˆู† ููŠู‡ุง ูˆุฃูƒุซุฑู‡ุง ู…ู…ุง ูŠู†ูƒุฑูˆุง ุจุนุถู‡ุง ู…ู…ุง ูŠุญุชู…ู„

    It has abundant benefits. In it, he unveiled the faults and innovations that the people do and make light of. Most of them are from those matters that are censured, whereas some of them are matters that carry possibility (of being correct).
    - end of quote -

    So according to him it's a book that refutes innovations and has abundant benefits, while according to Najdi minded people it support "Shirk and Bid'a". Great, isn't it?
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 28-03-20, 09:58 PM.

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  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    What will Deobandis do and say regarding statements by known Sunni scholars [of the past], which are clearly not in line with their thinking? An example:

    Imam Ibn al-Hajj al-'Abdari [al-Maliki] (d. 737 AH) said in his al-Madkhal [after mentioning that the one who takes the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - as a means and seeks aid with him will not be refused nor disappointed] (translation taken from this article: Tawassul and Istighatha by Imฤm Ibn al-Hฤjj al-`Abdarฤซ):
    Imam Ibn al-Hajj (d. 737 AH) also said a little bit later in his al-Madkhal:

    ูุฅุฐุง ุฒุงุฑู‡ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ุŒ ูุฅู† ู‚ุฏุฑ ุฃู† ู„ุง ูŠุฌู„ุณ ูู‡ูˆ ุจู‡ ุฃูˆู„ู‰ ุŒ ูุฅู† ุนุฌุฒ ุŒ ูู„ู‡ ุฃู† ูŠุฌู„ุณ ุจุงู„ุฃุฏุจ ุŒ ูˆุงู„ุงุญุชุฑุงู… ุŒ ูˆุงู„ุชุนุธูŠู… ุŒูˆู‚ุฏ ู„ุง ูŠุญุชุงุฌ ุงู„ุฒุงุฆุฑ ููŠ ุทู„ุจ ุญูˆุงุฆุฌู‡ ูˆู…ุบูุฑุฉ ุฐู†ูˆุจู‡ ุฃู† ูŠุฐูƒุฑู‡ุง ุจู„ุณุงู†ู‡ ุŒ ุจู„ ูŠุญุถุฑ ุฐู„ูƒ ููŠ ู‚ู„ุจู‡ ูˆู‡ูˆ ุญุงุถุฑ ุจูŠู† ูŠุฏูŠู‡ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ุ› ู„ุฃู†ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ุงู„ุตู„ุงุฉ ูˆุงู„ุณู„ุงู… ุฃุนู„ู… ู…ู†ู‡ ุจุญูˆุงุฆุฌู‡ ูˆู…ุตุงู„ุญู‡ ูˆุฃุฑุญู… ุจู‡ ู…ู†ู‡ ู„ู†ูุณู‡ ุŒ ูˆุฃุดูู‚ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ู…ู† ุฃู‚ุงุฑุจู‡ ุŒ ูˆู‚ุฏ ู‚ุงู„ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ุงู„ุตู„ุงุฉ ูˆุงู„ุณู„ุงู… : { ุฅู†ู…ุง ู…ุซู„ูŠ ูˆู…ุซู„ูƒู… ูƒู…ุซู„ ุงู„ูุฑุงุด ุชู‚ุนูˆู† ููŠ ุงู„ู†ุงุฑ ูˆุฃู†ุง ุขุฎุฐ ุจุญุฌุฒูƒู… ุนู†ู‡ุง } .
    ุฃูˆ ูƒู…ุง ู‚ุงู„ ุŒ ูˆู‡ุฐุง ููŠ ุญู‚ู‡ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ููŠ ูƒู„ ูˆู‚ุช ูˆุฃูˆุงู† ุฃุนู†ูŠ ููŠ ุงู„ุชูˆุณู„ ุจู‡ ูˆุทู„ุจ ุงู„ุญูˆุงุฆุฌ ุจุฌุงู‡ู‡ ุนู†ุฏ ุฑุจู‡ ุนุฒ ูˆุฌู„
    ูˆู…ู† ู„ู… ูŠู‚ุฏุฑ ู„ู‡ ุฒูŠุงุฑุชู‡ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ุจุฌุณู…ู‡ ูู„ูŠู†ูˆู‡ุง ูƒู„ ูˆู‚ุช ุจู‚ู„ุจู‡ ูˆู„ูŠุญุถุฑ ู‚ู„ุจู‡ ุฃู†ู‡ ุญุงุถุฑ ุจูŠู† ูŠุฏูŠู‡ ู…ุชุดูุนุง ุจู‡ ุฅู„ู‰ ู…ู† ู…ู† ุจู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูƒู…ุง ู‚ุงู„ ุงู„ุฅู…ุงู… ุฃุจูˆ ู…ุญู…ุฏ ุจู† ุงู„ุณูŠุฏ ุงู„ุจุทู„ูŠูˆุณูŠ ุฑุญู…ู‡ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุชุนุงู„ู‰ ููŠ ุฑู‚ุนุชู‡ ุงู„ุชูŠ ุฃุฑุณู„ู‡ุง ุฅู„ูŠู‡ ู…ู† ุฃุจูŠุงุช
    ุฅู„ูŽูŠู’ูƒ ุฃูŽููุฑู‘ู ู…ูู†ู’ ุฒูŽู„ูŽู„ููŠ ูˆูŽุฐูŽู†ู’ุจููŠ ... ูˆูŽุฃูŽู†ู’ุชูŽ ุฅุฐูŽุง ู„ูŽู‚ููŠุช ุงู„ู„ู‘ูŽู‡ูŽ ุญูŽุณู’ุจููŠ
    ูˆูŽุฒูŽูˆู’ุฑูŽุฉู ู‚ูŽุจู’ุฑููƒ ุงู„ู’ู…ูŽุญู’ุฌููˆุฌู ู‚ูุฏูŽู…ู‹ุง ... ู…ูู†ูŽุงูŠูŽ ูˆูŽุจูุบู’ูŠูŽุชููŠ ู„ูŽูˆู’ ุดูŽุงุกูŽ ุฑูŽุจู‘ููŠ
    ููŽุฅูู†ู’ ุฃูุญู’ุฑูŽู…ู’ ุฒููŠูŽุงุฑูŽุชูŽู‡ู ุจูุฌูุณู’ู…ููŠ ... ููŽู„ูŽู…ู’ ุฃูุญู’ุฑูŽู…ู’ ุฒููŠูŽุงุฑูŽุชูŽู‡ู ุจูู‚ูŽู„ู’ุจููŠ
    ุฅู„ูŽูŠู’ูƒ ุบูŽุฏูŽุชู’ ุฑูŽุณููˆู„ูŽ ุงู„ู„ู‘ูŽู‡ู ู…ูู†ู‘ููŠ ... ุชูŽุญููŠู‘ูŽุฉู ู…ูุคู’ู…ูู†ู ุฏูŽู†ููู ู…ูุญูุจู‘ู

    So when he visits him ๏ทบ, if he is able to (remain standing) and not sit, then this is better. If he was unable, then he can sit with proper decorum, respect, and honor.
    When the visitor is seeking the fulfillment of his needs and forgiveness of his sins, he might not need to mention that with his tongue. Nay, he may bring that to presence in his heart while he is standing in front of him ๏ทบ, because he ๏ทบ, knows his needs and benefits more than him, and is more merciful to him than himself, and more caring towards him than his own relatives.
    He said
    ๏ทบ: โ€œThe likeness of me and all of you is like moths that are rushing into the fire while I am standing to prevent you from it.โ€, or as he said. This applies to the Prophet ๏ทบ at all times - meaning in tawassul through him and seeking the fulfillment of oneโ€™s needs by way of his rank with his Lord.
    Whoever is unable to undertake a visit to him ๏ทบ with his body, then let him intend it at all times with his heart, and let him bring present to his heart that he is there in front of him seeking intercession through him unto the One who bestowed (His) bounty (Allฤh) through him, as was said by the Imฤm, Abลซ Muแธฅammad ibn al-Sayyid al-Baแนญalayลซsฤซ (may Allฤh have mercy upon him) in his line (of poetry) that he sent to him:

    Unto you I flee from my slips and sins,
    and when I meet Allฤh you are the one sufficient for me

    Visiting your grave that is visited by foot
    is my longing and desire if my Lord wills

    So if visitation of him is prevented by my body,
    then I am not prevented from visiting him with my heart

    To you oh Messenger of Allฤh I send, from myself,
    a salutation of a believer and lover.

    - end of quote -

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  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    What will Deobandis do and say regarding statements by known Sunni scholars [of the past], which are clearly not in line with their thinking? An example:

    Imam Ibn al-Hajj al-'Abdari [al-Maliki] (d. 737 AH) said in his al-Madkhal [after mentioning that the one who takes the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - as a means and seeks aid with him will not be refused nor disappointed] (translation taken from this article: Tawassul and Istighatha by Imฤm Ibn al-Hฤjj al-`Abdarฤซ):

    ูˆู‚ุฏ ู‚ุงู„ ุนู„ู…ุงุคู†ุง ุฑุญู…ุฉ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ู… : ุฅู† ุงู„ุฒุงุฆุฑ ูŠุดุนุฑ ู†ูุณู‡ ุจุฃู†ู‡ ูˆุงู‚ู ุจูŠู† ูŠุฏูŠู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ุงู„ุตู„ุงุฉ ูˆุงู„ุณู„ุงู… ูƒู…ุง ู‡ูˆ ููŠ ุญูŠุงุชู‡ ุŒ ุฅุฐ ู„ุง ูุฑู‚ ุจูŠู† ู…ูˆุชู‡ ูˆุญูŠุงุชู‡ ุฃุนู†ูŠ ููŠ ู…ุดุงู‡ุฏุชู‡ ู„ุฃู…ุชู‡ ูˆู…ุนุฑูุชู‡ ุจุฃุญูˆุงู„ู‡ู… ูˆู†ูŠุงุชู‡ู… ูˆุนุฒุงุฆู…ู‡ู… ูˆุฎูˆุงุทุฑู‡ู… ุŒ ูˆุฐู„ูƒ ุนู†ุฏู‡ ุฌู„ูŠ ู„ุง ุฎูุงุก ููŠู‡ .
    ูุฅู† ู‚ุงู„ ุงู„ู‚ุงุฆู„ : ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุตูุงุช ู…ุฎุชุตุฉ ุจุงู„ู…ูˆู„ู‰ ุณุจุญุงู†ู‡ ูˆุชุนุงู„ู‰ ุŒ ูุงู„ุฌูˆุงุจ ุฃู† ูƒู„ ู…ู† ุงู†ุชู‚ู„ ุฅู„ู‰ ุงู„ุขุฎุฑุฉ ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ุคู…ู†ูŠู† ูู‡ู… ูŠุนู„ู…ูˆู† ุฃุญูˆุงู„ ุงู„ุฃุญูŠุงุก ุบุงู„ุจุง ุŒ ูˆู‚ุฏ ูˆู‚ุน ุฐู„ูƒ ููŠ ุงู„ูƒุซุฑุฉ ุจุญูŠุซ ุงู„ู…ู†ุชู‡ู‰ ู…ู† ุญูƒุงูŠุงุช ูˆู‚ุนุช ู…ู†ู‡ู… ูˆูŠุญุชู…ู„ ุฃู† ูŠูƒูˆู† ุนู„ู…ู‡ู… ุจุฐู„ูƒ ุญูŠู† ุนุฑุถ ุฃุนู…ุงู„ ุงู„ุฃุญูŠุงุก ุนู„ูŠู‡ู… ูˆูŠุญุชู…ู„ ุบูŠุฑ ุฐู„ูƒ ุŒ ูˆู‡ุฐู‡ ุฃุดูŠุงุก ู…ุบูŠุจุฉ ุนู†ุง . ูˆู‚ุฏ ุฃุฎุจุฑ ุงู„ุตุงุฏู‚ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ุงู„ุตู„ุงุฉ ูˆุงู„ุณู„ุงู… ุจุนุฑุถ ุงู„ุฃุนู…ุงู„ ุนู„ูŠู‡ู… ูู„ุง ุจุฏ ู…ู† ูˆู‚ูˆุน ุฐู„ูƒ ุŒ ูˆุงู„ูƒูŠููŠุฉ ููŠู‡ ุบูŠุฑู…ุนู„ูˆู…ุฉ ูˆุงู„ู„ู‡ ุฃุนู„ู… ุจู‡ุง ูˆูƒูู‰ ููŠ ู‡ุฐุง ุจูŠุงู†ุง ู‚ูˆู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ุงู„ุตู„ุงุฉ ูˆุงู„ุณู„ุงู… { ุงู„ู…ุคู…ู† ูŠู†ุธุฑ ุจู†ูˆุฑ ุงู„ู„ู‡ } ุงู†ุชู‡ู‰ .
    ูˆู†ูˆุฑ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ู„ุง ูŠุญุฌุจู‡ ุดูŠุก ู‡ุฐุง ููŠ ุญู‚ ุงู„ุฃุญูŠุงุก ู…ู† ุงู„ู…ุคู…ู†ูŠู† ููƒูŠู ู…ู† ูƒุงู† ู…ู†ู‡ู… ููŠ ุงู„ุฏุงุฑ ุงู„ุขุฎุฑุฉ ุŸ ุŒ ูˆู‚ุฏ ู‚ุงู„ ุงู„ุฅู…ุงู… ุฃุจูˆ ุนุจุฏ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุงู„ู‚ุฑุทุจูŠ ููŠ ุชุฐูƒุฑุชู‡ ู…ุง ู‡ุฐุง ู„ูุธู‡ : ุงุจู† ุงู„ู…ุจุงุฑูƒ ุฃุฎุจุฑู†ุง ุฑุฌู„ ู…ู† ุงู„ุฃู†ุตุงุฑ ุนู† ุงู„ู…ู†ู‡ุงู„ ุจู† ุนู…ุฑูˆ ุญุฏุซู†ุง ุฃู†ู‡ ุณู…ุน ุณุนูŠุฏ ุจู† ุงู„ู…ุณูŠุจ ูŠู‚ูˆู„ : ู„ูŠุณ ู…ู† ูŠูˆู… ุฅู„ุง ูˆุชุนุฑุถ ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ู†ุจูŠ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ุฃุนู…ุงู„ ุฃู…ุชู‡ ุบุฏูˆุฉ ูˆุนุดูŠุฉ ููŠุนุฑูู‡ู… ุจุณูŠู…ุงู‡ู… ูˆุฃุนู…ุงู„ู‡ู… ุ› ูู„ุฐู„ูƒ ูŠุดู‡ุฏ ุนู„ูŠู‡ู… ู‚ุงู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุชุนุงู„ู‰ : { ููƒูŠู ุฅุฐุง ุฌุฆู†ุง ู…ู† ูƒู„ ุฃู…ุฉ ุจุดู‡ูŠุฏ ูˆุฌุฆู†ุง ุจูƒ ุนู„ู‰ ู‡ุคู„ุงุก ุดู‡ูŠุฏุง } ุŒ ู‚ุงู„ : ูˆู‚ุฏ ุชู‚ุฏู… ุฃู† ุงู„ุฃุนู…ุงู„ ุชุนุฑุถ ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุชุจุงุฑูƒ ูˆุชุนุงู„ู‰ ูŠูˆู… ุงู„ุฎู…ูŠุณ ูˆูŠูˆู… ุงู„ุงุซู†ูŠู† ูˆุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ุฃู†ุจูŠุงุก ุŒ ูˆุงู„ุขุจุงุก ุŒ ูˆุงู„ุฃู…ู‡ุงุช ูŠูˆู… ุงู„ุฌู…ุนุฉ ูˆู„ุง ุชุนุงุฑุถ ุŒ ูุฅู†ู‡ ูŠุญุชู…ู„ ุฃู† ูŠุฎุชุต ู†ุจูŠู†ุง ุนู„ูŠู‡ ุงู„ุตู„ุงุฉ ูˆุงู„ุณู„ุงู… ุจุงู„ุนุฑุถ ูƒู„ ูŠูˆู… ูˆูŠูˆู… ุงู„ุฌู…ุนุฉ ู…ุน ุงู„ุฃู†ุจูŠุงุก ุงู†ุชู‡ู‰ .

    Our scholars (may Allฤh the Exalted have mercy upon them) said: The visitor should cause himself to feel as if he is standing in front of him ๏ทบ just as he would be in his life, for there is no difference between his death and life, meaning, in his witnessing of his Ummah, and his knowing of their situations, intentions, resolves, and inner thoughts. That is (all) clear to him without there being any concealment whatsoever.
    If someone said (in objection to this): These attributes are particular to the Master (Allฤh) ๏ทป, the response is: All of those who have relocated to the hereafter from among the believers know the situation of the living predominately. That has occurred to no end (found) in accounts that have been (reported) to have occurred. It is possible that their knowledge of that is when the actions of the living are presented to them, and there are other possibilities to it (as well). These matters are hidden from us.
    The truthful one ๏ทบ informed about the presentation of deeds to them (the dead) so it must occur. The knowledge of how it occurs is not known and Allฤh knows best about it, and it is sufficient as a clarification, the statement of the Prophet ๏ทบ: โ€œThe believer sees with the light of Allฤh.โ€™โ€™
    The light of Allฤh is not veiled by anything. This is regarding the living among the believers, so what about those among them in the other worldly abode?
    The Imฤm, Abลซ โ€˜Abdallฤh al-Qurแนญubฤซ said in his al-Tadhkirah:
    (It has been narrated that) Ibn al-Mubฤrak narrated with his chain to al-Minhฤl ibn โ€˜Amr who narrated that he heard Saโ€™ฤซd ibn al-Musayyib say: โ€˜There is not a day, except that on it, the actions of the Ummah are presented to the Prophet ๏ทบ, both in the morning and the evening. So, he knows them by their deeds and appearances, and it is due to that he will bear witness against them. Allฤh the Exalted said:
    โ€œSo how will it be when We bring every nation with a witness and bring you as a witness over theseโ€™โ€™
    It has proceeded, that the deeds are presented to Allฤh the Blessed and Exalted on Thursday and Monday and (the deeds are presented) to the Prophets and fathers and mothers on Friday and there is no contradiction, for it is possible that it is specific to the Prophet ๏ทบ that the deeds are presented to him every day and on Friday with the other Prophets. (end quote from al-Qurแนญubฤซ)

    - end of quote -
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 28-03-20, 10:00 PM.

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  • AmantuBillahi
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    The beliefs of any group should be understood as explained by themselves (i.e. their scholars!) and NOT as explained by their opponents.
    The thing is these Deobandis were coming from the angle that Asrar Rashid was purposefully deceiving the people (Taqiyyah) regarding the beliefs of the Barelvis and their scholars. The entire video was them quoting their scholars and elaborating on the statements found in Barelvi sources.

    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Add to that: It's no secret that Deobandis have a Najdi inclination (even if only a mild to moderate one) and this is quite obvious in the above video too.
    I don't necessarily disagree with this. There was even an instance towards the latter part of the video where they criticized Asrar Rashid for nodding his head to a Nasheed which included an Istigatha of Abdul Qadr al-Jilanee(rah). However, I would be curious to hear how the Deobandis respond to this allegation. I'm sure they don't view themselves as deviating from Maturidi/Ahl al-Sunnah on this issue.


    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    I even remember that on a forum which was dominated by Deobandis (I think it was "sunniforum") they said that the Shaykh Muhammad 'Alawi al-Maliki - whose Sunni-ness is beyond any doubt according to every Ash'ari and Maturidi in the Middle East - had some beliefs that were in-line with that of the Barelwis. (If I remember correct, they even referred to Deobandi scholars who said so.)
    And this statement is against them and shows their inclination towards the Najdis, because the book Mafahim Yajib an Tusahhah is supported by every Sunni in the Middle East and no one will find a problem with it except that he's a Najdi or inclined towards them!

    Anyways, since both Barelwis and Deobandis usually love to quote Arab scholars in support of their positions: This is what the Shaykh Sa'id Fouda said (short video with subtitles):

    Sh. Saeed Fodeh on the Deobandi/Barelvi Dispute

    inshaAllah Asrar Rashid makes a response video and clarifies his position. These brothers were supposed to debate sometime last year.

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  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    Interesting video on the Barelvis and Hazir Nazir:
    ...
    The beliefs of any group should be understood as explained by themselves (i.e. their scholars!) and NOT as explained by their opponents.

    Add to that: It's no secret that Deobandis have a Najdi inclination (even if only a mild to moderate one) and this is quite obvious in the above video too.

    I even remember that on a forum which was dominated by Deobandis (I think it was "sunniforum") they said that the Shaykh Muhammad 'Alawi al-Maliki - whose Sunni-ness is beyond any doubt according to every Ash'ari and Maturidi in the Middle East - had some beliefs that were in-line with that of the Barelwis. (If I remember correct, they even referred to Deobandi scholars who said so.)
    And this statement is against them and shows their inclination towards the Najdis, because the book Mafahim Yajib an Tusahhah is supported by every Sunni in the Middle East and no one will find a problem with it except that he's a Najdi or inclined towards them!

    Anyways, since both Barelwis and Deobandis usually love to quote Arab scholars in support of their positions: This is what the Shaykh Sa'id Fouda said (short video with subtitles):

    Sh. Saeed Fodeh on the Deobandi/Barelvi Dispute

    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 28-03-20, 08:51 PM.

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  • AmantuBillahi
    replied
    Interesting video on the Barelvis and Hazir Nazir:

    Leave a comment:


  • imran1976
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Regarding your claim that prostration to other than Allah ta'ala is widespread in the Subcontinent and your claim of the Hanafi Maturidi scholars not addressing this:
    if anyone has made such claims, I believe he has sectarian mindset or he is mentally unstable.

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  • imran1976
    replied
    Originally posted by neelu View Post
    Walaykum salam,

    Of course his fatwa was invalid. Only ignorant people who lack understanding of Islam would've been foolish enough to follow him.
    His fatwa was valid or invalid, I don't know about that, but there's definitely problematic statements in the books of deobandi elders --- Now instead of correcting those statements (there can be human errors), it became fight of the egos ---- see, when all these issues were going on (125-135 years ago), there was no such deobandi-brelwi division --- it was about what was said or written, later on (till to date), this became kinda world war between the followers.

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  • imran1976
    replied
    Originally posted by Qiyas View Post

    Isn't like 78% of Pakistan brillo?
    78% Pakistanis don't know what's a brillo or a deo or a vabbi.

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  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    Originally posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
    Pretty much

    People act like theres this wahabi boogeyman that runs around

    "Eat your vegetables children or the wahabi will get you" mentality
    If Wahhabis would fear Allah ta'ala and stop attacking Sunni Muslims - and Muslims in generally - and would stop making up all kinds of lies and stop their constant accusations of "polytheism" against other Muslims, then no one would mention them. So let's not confuse action and reaction. This all was started by Najdis / Wahhabis and their "Salafi" heirs!

    I've already stated that "Salafi" fighters in my country went around killing innocent people - even scholars! - and then you expect us to stay quite?! Just because "Salafism" does not affect your life in a negative way, it does not mean that other people who have lost relatives thanks to the extreme Najdi ideology need to be silent!
    You know what makes everything worse? They did and do all of this in the name of Islam, which makes their sin even worse! I mean we expect this behavior from the American and Zionist dogs, but why for God's sake are you people acting like that?

    Anyways...

    Let the "Salafi" Mashayikh be proud of themselves for producing the mindset of your likes!:
    I'm saying that something is a major sin and in some of it forms it becomes disbelief and you're telling me that I'm defending this action! Allahul musta'an!
    No wonder your "Salafi" brothers in my country could kill so many people. With this type of mindset it's really easy to accuse other Muslims of whatever one wants and then kill them!
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 07-03-20, 01:41 PM.

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  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    Originally posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
    And pretty much every user that comes on ummah and posts like this justifies deviance in some other post. We had the user above trying to say people prostrating to graves was from respect

    What Muslim in there right mind would defend prostrating to a grave
    Let me guess: You're most likely a convert [to "Salafism"], who has grown up among real disbelievers and polytheists and has no real connection to the mindset of Muslims and their history and are now trying to re-define Islam and teach this new version to the Muslims - who maybe upon "polytheism" in your [mis]understanding - thinking you're soo enlightened, because this is what the "Salafi" callers in the West teached you.
    And as if all of this is not enough you shamelessly lie in your above statement and this just because I'm criticizing the wrong understanding of the Najdis and "Salafis".

    I did NOT defend prostration to a grave! I said that prostration to other than Allah ta'ala is a major sin and in some of its forms it constitutes disbelief! This is word by word stated by classical scholars! But I guess you know Islam and Tawhid better than them, right!?

    See here:

    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Imam al-Dhahabi (d. 748 AH) stated in his book Mu'jam al-Shuyukh:

    ุฃู„ุง ุชุฑู‰ ุงู„ุตุญุงุจุฉ ู…ู† ูุฑุท ุญุจู‡ู… ู„ู„ู†ุจูŠ โ€“ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู…- ู‚ุงู„ูˆุง: ุฃู„ุง ู†ุณุฌุฏ ู„ูƒุŸ ูู‚ุงู„: ู„ุงุŒ ูู„ูˆ ุฃุฐู† ู„ู‡ู… ู„ุณุฌุฏูˆุง ุณุฌูˆุฏ ุฅุฌู„ุงู„ ูˆุชูˆู‚ูŠุฑ ู„ุง ุณุฌูˆุฏ ุนุจุงุฏุฉ ูƒู…ุง ุณุฌุฏ ุฅุฎูˆุฉ ูŠูˆุณู ุนู„ูŠู‡ ุงู„ุณู„ุงู… ู„ูŠูˆุณูุŒ ูˆูƒุฐู„ูƒ ุงู„ู‚ูˆู„ ููŠ ุณุฌูˆุฏ ุงู„ู…ุณู„ู… ู„ู‚ุจุฑ ุงู„ู†ุจูŠ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ุนู„ู‰ ุณุจูŠู„ ุงู„ุชุนุธูŠู… ูˆุงู„ุชุจุฌูŠู„ ู„ุง ูŠูƒูุฑ ุจู‡ ุฃุตู„ุง ุจู„ ูŠูƒูˆู† ุนุงุตูŠุง. ูู„ูŠุนุฑู ุฃู† ู‡ุฐุง ู…ู†ู‡ูŠ ุนู†ู‡ ูˆูƒุฐู„ูƒ ุงู„ุตู„ุงุฉ ุฅู„ู‰ ุงู„ู‚ุจุฑ

    Do you not see that the companions in their excessive love for the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - said: "Should we not prostrate for you?". So he said: "No".
    If he had allowed them to prostrate, they would have prostrated with the prostration of respect and awe and not the prostration of worship just like the brothers of Yusuf - peace be upon him - prostrated for Yusuf.
    Likewise is the statement regarding the prostration of a Muslim for the grave of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - in order to show veneration and respect (for the Prophet): He does not become a disbeliever because of this in any way, rather he becomes sinful. It should be known that this has been forbidden, likewise is [the ruling for] the prayer to the grave.

    - end of quote -

    Note that the classical scholars have mentioned that to prostrate to other than Allah ta'ala is a major sin in our law and in some of its forms it becomes disbelief. If it's wished I can post their differentiation regarding this issue. (This issue has been discussed in classical Fiqh books.)
    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Some quotes from classical sources regarding the issue of prostration to other than Allah ta'ala:


    From the Hanafi Fiqh book al-Ikhtiyar li Ta'lil al-Mukhtar [by Imam al-Mawsilli (d. 683 AH)]:

    ูˆุชู‚ุจูŠู„ ุงู„ุฃุฑุถ ุจูŠู† ูŠุฏูŠ ุงู„ุณู„ุทุงู† ุฃูˆ ุจุนุถ ุฃุตุญุงุจู‡ ู„ูŠุณ ุจูƒูุฑ ู„ุฃู†ู‡ ุชุญูŠุฉ ูˆู„ูŠุณ ุจุนุจุงุฏุฉ ุŒ ูˆู…ู† ุฃูƒุฑู‡ ุนู„ู‰ ุฃู† ูŠุณุฌุฏ ู„ู„ู…ู„ูƒ ุงู„ุฃูุถู„ ุฃู† ู„ุง ูŠุณุฌุฏ ู„ุฃู†ู‡ ูƒูุฑ ุŒ ูˆู„ูˆ ุณุฌุฏ ุนู†ุฏ ุงู„ุณู„ุทุงู† ุนู„ู‰ ูˆุฌู‡ ุงู„ุชุญูŠุฉ ู„ุง ูŠุตูŠุฑ ูƒุงูุฑุง

    Kissing the ground before the Sultan or some of his companions is not disbelief, because it's [a form of] greeting and not worship. As for the one who gets forced to prostrate for the king, [then] it's better for him not to prostrate, because it is disbelief, but if he prostrates in front of the Sultan as a form of greeting then he does not become a disbeliever.
    - end of quote -

    From the Shafi'i Fiqh book Rawdhat al-Talibin [by Imam al-Nawawi (d. 676 AH)]:

    ูˆู„ูŠุณ ู…ู† ู‡ุฐุง ู…ุง ูŠูุนู„ู‡ ูƒุซูŠุฑูˆู† ู…ู† ุงู„ุฌู‡ู„ุฉ ุงู„ุถุงู„ูŠู† ู…ู† ุงู„ุณุฌูˆุฏ ุจูŠู† ูŠุฏูŠ ุงู„ู…ุดุงูŠุฎ ูุฅู† ุฐู„ูƒ ุญุฑุงู… ู‚ุทุนู‹ุง ุจูƒู„ ุญุงู„ ุณูˆุงุก ูƒุงู† ุฅู„ู‰ ุงู„ู‚ุจู„ุฉ ุฃูˆ ุบูŠุฑู‡ุง ูˆุณูˆุงุก ู‚ุตุฏ ุงู„ุณุฌูˆุฏ ู„ู„ู‡ ุชุนุงู„ู‰ ุฃูˆ ุบูู„ , ูˆููŠ ุจุนุถ ุตูˆุฑู‡ ู…ุง ูŠู‚ุชุถูŠ ุงู„ูƒูุฑ ุนุงูุงู†ุง ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุชุนุงู„ู‰ ูˆุงู„ู„ู‡ ุฃุนู„ู…

    That which does not belong to it is which is done by many of the ignorant deviants from the prostration in front of the Mashayikh, because this is definitely forbidden (haram qat'an) in every case no matter whether this is done in the direction of the Qibla or other than it and no matter if the intention of the prostration is for Allah ta'ala or if it was [done] thoughtlessly; and in some of its forms it implies disbelief. We ask Allah ta'ala for well-being and Allah knows best.
    - end of quote -

    From the Maliki Fiqh book al-Furuq [by Imam al-Qarafi (d. 684 AH)]:

    ุงุชูู‚ ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุนู„ู‰ ุฃู† ุงู„ุณุฌูˆุฏ ู„ู„ุตู†ู… ุนู„ู‰ ูˆุฌู‡ ุงู„ุชุฐู„ู„ ูˆุงู„ุชุนุธูŠู… ู„ู‡ ูƒูุฑ ูˆู„ูˆ ูˆู‚ุน ู…ุซู„ ุฐู„ูƒ ููŠ ุญู‚ ุงู„ูˆู„ุฏ ู…ุน ูˆุงู„ุฏู‡ ุชุนุธูŠู…ุง ู„ู‡ ูˆุชุฐู„ู„ุง ุฃูˆ ููŠ ุญู‚ ุงู„ุฃูˆู„ูŠุงุก ูˆุงู„ุนู„ู…ุงุก ู„ู… ูŠูƒู† ูƒูุฑุง

    The people are agreed upon that prostration for an idol with humbleness and veneration for it is disbelief, but if the like of it would happen from the son for his father with humbleness and veneration or for the Awliya or the scholars then this would not constitute disbelief.
    - end of quote -

    From the commentary of Imam Ibn al-Shatt [al-Maliki] (d. 723 AH) regarding the above statement:

    ุณุฌูˆุฏ ู…ู† ุณุฌุฏ ู„ู„ุฃุตู†ุงู… ู„ู… ูŠุณุฌุฏ ู„ู‡ุง ู„ู…ุฌุฑุฏ ุงู„ุชุฐู„ู„ ูˆุงู„ุชุนุธูŠู… ุจู„ ู„ุฐู„ูƒ ู…ุน ุงุนุชู‚ุงุฏ ุฃู†ู‡ุง ุขู„ู‡ุฉ ูˆุฃู†ู‡ุง ุดุฑูƒุงุก ู„ู„ู‡ ุชุนุงู„ู‰ ูˆู„ูˆ ูˆู‚ุน ู…ุซู„ ุฐู„ูƒ ู…ุน ุงู„ูˆุงู„ุฏ ุฃูˆ ุงู„ุนุงู„ู… ุฃูˆ ุงู„ูˆู„ูŠ ู„ูƒุงู† ุฐู„ูƒ ูƒูุฑุง ู„ุง ุดูƒ ููŠู‡ ูˆุฃู…ุง ุฅุฐุง ูˆู‚ุน ุฐู„ูƒ ุฃูˆ ู…ุง ููŠ ู…ุนู†ุงู‡ ู…ุน ุงู„ูˆุงู„ุฏ ู„ู…ุฌุฑุฏ ุงู„ุชุฐู„ู„ ูˆุงู„ุชุนุธูŠู… ู„ุง ู„ุงุนุชู‚ุงุฏ ุฃู†ู‡ ุฅู„ู‡ ูˆุดุฑูŠูƒ ู„ู„ู‡ ุนุฒ ูˆุฌู„ ูู„ุง ูŠูƒูˆู† ูƒูุฑุง ูˆุฅู† ูƒุงู† ู…ู…ู†ูˆุนุง ุณุฏุง ู„ู„ุฐุฑูŠุนุฉ

    The prostration of the one who prostrates for the idols is not just because of humbleness and veneration [for it], rather also with the belief that they are gods (Aliha) and partners of Allah ta'ala and if the like (i.e. with this belief) would happen for ones father or a scholar or a Wali, then it would be disbelief without any doubt.
    But if this [prostration] or what is similar in meaning happens for ones father with humbleness and veneration only and not with the belief that he's a god or a partner of Allah - 'azza wa jall -, then it does not constitute disbelief even if it's forbidden in order to block the means (to disbelief).

    - end of quote -

    From the Hanbali Fiqh book Matalib Uli al-Nuha [by Imam al-Ruhaybani (d. 1243 AH)] which is the explantion of Ghayat al-Muntaha [by Imam al-Karmi (d. 1033)]:

    ุฃูˆ ุณุฌุฏ ู„ุตู†ู… ุฃูˆ ูƒูˆูƒุจ ) ูƒุดู…ุณ ุฃูˆ ู‚ู…ุฑ ุ› ูƒูุฑ ุ› ู„ุฃู†ู‡ ุฃุดุฑูƒ ุจู‡ ุณุจุญุงู†ู‡ ูˆุชุนุงู„ู‰ .( ูˆูŠุชุฌู‡ ุงู„ุณุฌูˆุฏ ู„ู„ุญูƒุงู… ูˆุงู„ู…ูˆุชู‰ ุจู‚ุตุฏ ุงู„ุนุจุงุฏุฉ ูƒูุฑ ) ู‚ูˆู„ุง ูˆุงุญุฏุง ุจุงุชูุงู‚ ุงู„ู…ุณู„ู…ูŠู† ( ูˆุงู„ุชุญูŠุฉ ) ู„ู…ุฎู„ูˆู‚ ุจุงู„ุณุฌูˆุฏ ู„ู‡ ( ูƒุจูŠุฑุฉ ) ู…ู† ุงู„ูƒุจุงุฆุฑ ุงู„ุนุธุงู… ุŒ ูˆุงู„ุณุฌูˆุฏ ู„ู…ุฎู„ูˆู‚ ุญูŠ ุฃูˆ ู…ูŠุช

    "Or if one prostrates for an idol or a star" like the sun or the moon [then this is] disbelief, because he has associated [partners] with [Allah] subhanahu wa ta'ala. "What differs is the prostration for the ruler or the dead: [If it is] with the intention of worship [it] is disbelief" by agreement of the Muslims "and [if the intention is] greeting" a created being by prostration for it "[then it is a] major sin" from among the very great sins.
    - end of quote -


    And since we were talking about the subcontinent, let's also quote the famous al-Fatawa al-Hindiyya [which is authored by a number of Hanafi scholars]:

    ู…ู† ุณุฌุฏ ู„ู„ุณู„ุทุงู† ุนู„ู‰ ูˆุฌู‡ ุงู„ุชุญูŠุฉ ุฃูˆ ู‚ุจู„ ุงู„ุฃุฑุถ ุจูŠู† ูŠุฏูŠู‡ ู„ุง ูŠูƒูุฑ ูˆู„ูƒู† ูŠุฃุซู… ู„ุงุฑุชูƒุงุจู‡ ุงู„ูƒุจูŠุฑุฉ ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ู…ุฎุชุงุฑ

    The one who prostrates for the Sultan in order to greet him or kisses the ground in front of him: He does not become a disbeliever, rather he becomes sinful, because he has committed a major sin; and this the preferred [position].
    - end of quote -
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 07-03-20, 01:26 PM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Qiyas
    replied
    Originally posted by eesa the kiwi View Post

    Pretty much

    People act like theres this wahabi boogeyman that runs around

    "Eat your vegetables children or the wahabi will get you" mentality

    Sad thing its grown men believing in these tales not children

    And pretty much every user that comes on ummah and posts like this justifies deviance in some other post. We had the user above trying to say people prostrating to graves was from respect

    What Muslim in there right mind would defend prostrating to a grave
    Not sure why people keep on chasing fairy tales of a united ummah, when people would rather spend 99% of their social time doing takfeer.
    Think about this: on Yawm al-Qiyaamah, when Allah SWT asks you what you did with your time, your response is that you sat there, using your keyboard to chip away at the walls of wahaabistan, instead of doing something productive such as reading, reflecting and pondering on the Qur'an, doing dhikr, or learning (or teaching knowledge of the Deen).

    Leave a comment:


  • eesa the kiwi
    replied
    Originally posted by Qiyas View Post

    If I didn't know any better, I'd think that they spent their whole time doing takfeer....of those people that they claim spend their whole time doing takfeer...
    Pretty much

    People act like theres this wahabi boogeyman that runs around

    "Eat your vegetables children or the wahabi will get you" mentality

    Sad thing its grown men believing in these tales not children

    And pretty much every user that comes on ummah and posts like this justifies deviance in some other post. We had the user above trying to say people prostrating to graves was from respect

    What Muslim in there right mind would defend prostrating to a grave

    Leave a comment:


  • Qiyas
    replied
    Originally posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
    I wonder what would happen if the ashairah put one tenth of the effort they do refuting "wahabis" into dawah

    Cant remember ever seeing on this site an ashari give dawah it's just wahabi this and wahabi that


    If I didn't know any better, I'd think that they spent their whole time doing takfeer....of those people that they claim spend their whole time doing takfeer...

    Leave a comment:

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