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  • #16
    Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post

    first of all we base whats permissable on daleel
    aql comes after all this logic stuff is secondary


    second of all you make no sense

    your saying someone sitting down doing nothing wrong
    who has the power to do nothing
    is committing a sin


    if thats the case then all the muslims in makkah were sinful for letting the quraysh rule the land with the pagan laws when the muslims resided in makkah

    makes no sense of course not
    and no aalim has ever saw what u said to refute voting being haram or shirk


    second of all just because something is shirk
    does not mean u have made mass takfir


    look into takfir mutlaq and takfir muayn
    matters of aslu deen
    ma3loom minadeen biddaroorah
    masaail khaffiya
    masaail dhaahiriya

    then youl understand
    and stop taking matters of aqeedah from asharis
    This thread derailment is because you watch Football or don't care about men exposing their awrah?
    http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

    "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post

      This thread derailment is because you watch Football or don't care about men exposing their awrah?
      i dont watch football
      i dont even watch tv much

      dont make assumptions

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post



        We went through this several times, by your own argument your helping the kaafir by not voting and allowing him to legislate over you.

        You keep repeating Allah عز و جل is the legislator like its supposed to be news.

        Were talking about living under kaafir rule,

        Your choice is to let any old kaafir legislate over you.

        I agree with the permissibility to choose a less Islamophobic kaafir to rule.

        Either way, your in the same boat.

        You have serious comprehension issues, I gave you the benefit of doubt, but its clear that your a crazed Takfiri who ignores reality and the consequences of his own actions /inactions.

        You did make mass Takfir by claiming its Shirk Akbar to vote.

        The fact that you cant accept the consequences of your claims indicates some serious issues upstairs.
        Please dont throw insults like that akhi, and i think your making a mistake on this issue.

        Even a part time laymen Muslim like me knows voting is not generally permissible for a Muslim, it is a action of shirk, just like bowing to a idol.

        Both of these actions (bowing to a idol) and voting at the ballot box would constitute a violation of taking Allah (swt) as the sole Lord and Master.

        There may be exceptions to this rule (just like there are life/death exceptions to bowing to a idol) but its still a action of shirk/kufr.

        Some scholars have tried to make it permissible and some even said its important for Muslims to do Shirk/Kufr (Vote) in order to win some community concessions.

        I dont believe that is a valid enough reason to risk falling into the biggest and most unforgivable sin going.

        I rather take my chances with a anti-Muslim government or make hijrah then risk having to explain to Allah what my excuse was for making shirk/kufr.

        Many of the "scholars" telling you Democracy is kosher now have deeply vested interests.

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by murad View Post

          Please dont throw insults like that akhi, and i think your making a mistake on this issue.

          Even a part time laymen Muslim like me knows voting is not generally permissible for a Muslim, it is a action of shirk, just like bowing to a idol.

          Both of these actions (bowing to a idol) and voting at the ballot box would constitute a violation of taking Allah (swt) as the sole Lord and Master.

          There may be exceptions to this rule (just like there are life/death exceptions to bowing to a idol) but its still a action of shirk/kufr.

          Some scholars have tried to make it permissible and some even said its important for Muslims to do Shirk/Kufr (Vote) in order to win some community concessions.

          I dont believe that is a valid enough reason to risk falling into the biggest and most unforgivable sin going.

          I rather take my chances with a anti-Muslim government or make hijrah then risk having to explain to Allah what my excuse was for making shirk/kufr.

          Many of the "scholars" telling you Democracy is kosher now have deeply vested interests.
          he believes in the concept of lesser of 2 evils
          and doesnt believe its shirk

          and his refutation to it being shirk is

          whether you vote or not a taghut will come into power

          if thats the case then the person who doesnt vote is sinful just as the person who votes

          makes no sense to me this argument
          theres no daleel behind this side
          no logic
          just following what shaykh xyz said

          whilst the other side has numerous adilla from quran

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by murad View Post

            Please dont throw insults like that akhi, and i think your making a mistake on this issue.

            Even a part time laymen Muslim like me knows voting is not generally permissible for a Muslim, it is a action of shirk, just like bowing to a idol.

            Both of these actions (bowing to a idol) and voting at the ballot box would constitute a violation of taking Allah (swt) as the sole Lord and Master.

            There may be exceptions to this rule (just like there are life/death exceptions to bowing to a idol) but its still a action of shirk/kufr.

            Some scholars have tried to make it permissible and some even said its important for Muslims to do Shirk/Kufr (Vote) in order to win some community concessions.

            I dont believe that is a valid enough reason to risk falling into the biggest and most unforgivable sin going.

            I rather take my chances with a anti-Muslim government or make hijrah then risk having to explain to Allah what my excuse was for making shirk/kufr.

            Many of the "scholars" telling you Democracy is kosher now have deeply vested interests.
            You seem to be clueless like him, do you also believe all the Muslims who vote have Committed Shirk Akbar, and are hence kuffar?

            Or you making excuses for Shirk Akbar like him, as though Muslims don't know Allah عز و جل is the Legislator,?

            When you make a statement you have to accept the consequences.

            Secondly the argument that its Kufr /Shirk Akbar never stood because wether you vote or not, a Kaafir is legislating over you anyway.

            The point of voting is to choose a kaafir who would potentially cause less harm to Muslims.
            ​​​​​​
            http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

            "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post

              i dont watch football
              i dont even watch tv much

              dont make assumptions
              You derailed the thread, its not about Voting, its about Filth on TV, learn to read.
              http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

              "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post

                This thread derailment is because you watch Football or don't care about men exposing their awrah?
                It isn't awrah anyway.
                You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post

                  It isn't awrah anyway.
                  youve started it now

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post

                    Allah said legislation is only for Allah
                    so worship only him

                    if your helping the legislation of other than Allah
                    then your worshipping other than Allah
                    thats shirk

                    Allah said you wish to refer legislation to the taghut
                    when you was ordered to reject it

                    your not rejecting it your referring to it

                    ive brought daleel to show its impermissable which many scholars have also used when it comes to legislation

                    you bring daleel to say its permissable

                    not follow a shaykhs fatwa without daleel

                    i dont make mass takfir
                    and even if i did the number of people being takfirred on is not a condition of whether its permissable or not

                    Brother, your opinion isn't a majority opinion, as passionate as you are about it.

                    The fact that it was a position carried by Takfiris throughout history doesn't help. When I hear it, it just reminds me of what the Khawarij used to say to the Sahabah.

                    I'm not saying it's right or wrong, ok? Just that you need to accept that most Muslims don't and likely will not ever agree with it.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by matcha View Post

                      Brother, your opinion isn't a majority opinion, as passionate as you are about it.

                      The fact that it was a position carried by Takfiris throughout history doesn't help. When I hear it, it just reminds me of what the Khawarij used to say to the Sahabah.

                      I'm not saying it's right or wrong, ok? Just that you need to accept that most Muslims don't and likely will not ever agree with it.
                      when did majority opinion ever dictate what was right in islam

                      what is takfiri
                      most people who use this word and bark the word khawarij dont even use it properly
                      they call people khariji for making takfir ijtihaad when there was a possible daleel
                      when someone committed kufr akbar

                      they didnt call them khariji or takfiri for making takfir on major sins

                      and even if an individual made takfir on a major sin does that autmatically make them khariji or is that an act of ghulu and from the traits of the khawarij

                      khawarij are a sect within islam
                      just like any other sect murjiah, jahmiya or mutazila

                      u have to either have the usool in aqeedah of these sects or either numerous times commit an act that is of that sect to be labelled as part of that sect

                      so if that person actually believed u can make takfir on some one for a major sin hes khariji


                      or if he numerous times made takfir on major sins hes khariji

                      if he once did it does not mean hes khawarij however he had a trait of theres

                      and anyway as i said most people most who are accused of being khariji or takfiri are actually not
                      instead they make takfir when someone commits kufr akbar and has no preventatives of takfir to cover them which is perfectley fine
                      Last edited by Abu julaybeeb; 03-01-19, 05:07 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post

                        when did majority opinion ever dictate what was right in islam

                        what is takfiri
                        most people who use this word and bark the word khawarij dont even use it properly
                        they call people khariji for making takfir ijtihaad when there was a possible daleel
                        when someone committed kufr akbar

                        they didnt call them khariji or takfiri for making takfir on major sins

                        and even if an individual made takfir on a major sin does that autmatically make them khariji or is that an act of ghulu and from the traits of the khawarij

                        khawarij are a sect within islam
                        just like any other sect murjiah, jahmiya or mutazila

                        u have to either have the usool in aqeedah of these sects or either numerous times commit an act that is of that sect to be labelled as part of that sect

                        so if that person actually believed u can make takfir on some one for a major sin hes khariji


                        or if he numerous times made takfir on major sins hes khariji

                        if he once did it does not mean hes khawarin however he had a trait of theres

                        and anyway as i said most people most who are accused of being khariji or takfiri are actually not
                        instead they make takfir when someone commits kufr akbar and has no preventatives of takfir to cover them which is perfectlt fine
                        Most Muslims will just not have this position and never have. It's something you need to make peace with.

                        I know you disagree, but the fact that most Muslims don't have the same opinion is enough a proof for most people, the jama'ah not uniting on dhalalah etc.

                        I'm not saying anything either way. I'm just saying you need to make peace with the fact most practicing Muslims will not agree with you.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by matcha View Post

                          Most Muslims will just not have this position and never have. It's something you need to make peace with.

                          I know you disagree, but the fact that most Muslims don't have the same opinion is enough a proof for most people, the jama'ah not uniting on dhalalah etc.

                          I'm not saying anything either way. I'm just saying you need to make peace with the fact most practicing Muslims will not agree with you.
                          jama'ah not uniting on dhalalah i dont think this is being used correctly as daleel

                          as the ummah is split when it comes to voting
                          some say shirk some say kufr some say haram some permissable some say waajib

                          the jama ah is not united on this
                          and in fact most people who support voting have no daleel from quran or sunnah
                          unless used in a bogus manner

                          anyways im not here for people to agree with me or for me to have peace
                          im here to help advice muslims to not sin

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post

                            jama'ah not uniting on dhalalah i dont think this is being used correctly as daleel

                            as the ummah is split when it comes to voting
                            some say shirk some say kufr some say haram some permissable some say waajib

                            the jama ah is not united on this
                            and in fact most people who support voting have no daleel from quran or sunnah
                            unless used in a bogus manner

                            anyways im not here for people to agree with me or for me to have peace
                            im here to help advice muslims to not sin
                            By 'make peace' I mean you need to accept it.


                            But brother I admire you fire. I was like that too when I was young. Then all the bullying and abuse broke me. Wasted life. Don't be like me.

                            Keep up your fire inshaAllah, just don't fight with others. You'll burn out.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post

                              1. You seem to be clueless like him, do you also believe all the Muslims who vote have Committed Shirk Akbar, and are hence kuffar?

                              2. The point of voting is to choose a kaafir who would potentially cause less harm to Muslims.
                              1. If i am clueless perhaps you can educate us, but no i dont believe Muslims who vote are kuffar automatically, there may be issues that prevent takfir,
                              but no doubt it is act of shirk (and kufr), because it is clashes with a important aspect of tawheed, that only Allah (swt) is the One who can legislate for mankind.

                              When you vote in parliamentary elections you are giving the right of Allah (Legislation) to the MP/parliament and hence you have compromised Tawheed,
                              perhaps in exchange for some worldly benefit, but it is none the less a compromise in one of the core aspects of the deen.

                              The television issue of this thread is not even in the same league lol

                              2. Do you understand what you are saying here ?

                              The point of (Doing Shirk) is to choose a Kafir who would cause less harm to us.

                              This is the excuse some "Muslim Magicians" use to try and communicate and control the Jinn.

                              Its like saying If i dont sell drugs on my street block somebody else is going to do it anyway, or maybe i should help the Asian Mafia in my neighborhood peddle some drugs, or hide their fugitives or weapons, because at least we have more things in common with the Asian Mafia then if the Russian Mob or Japanese Yakuza were dominating our hood, we fear less harm from the Asian Mafia so lets give them our backing.

                              None of this is going to fly when The Law comes knocking on the door to take us to account for our role in helping the local mob.

                              In our case the Law is none other than Allah (swt), who told us to Fear Him Alone and avoid taghoot.

                              I know my examples are not the best but i hope this point sinks in inshallah because its important one for Akhirah.
                              Last edited by murad; 04-01-19, 09:50 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by matcha View Post

                                Most Muslims will just not have this position and never have. It's something you need to make peace with.

                                I know you disagree, but the fact that most Muslims don't have the same opinion is enough a proof for most people, the jama'ah not uniting on dhalalah etc.

                                I'm not saying anything either way. I'm just saying you need to make peace with the fact most practicing Muslims will not agree with you.
                                This is not correct. If anything more and more media attention on Islam means more and more Muslims are waking up and examining these theological issues
                                that would have been debated once by academics only, are now being talked about by the common people.

                                As information spreads so does knowledge of Islam.

                                I know Muslims who used to vote and have now made tawbah from it, myself included.

                                It may take longer for it to become more mainstream but thats okay.

                                The issue may not be clear cut as bowing to a idol - because that shirk is obvious, but there was a time when majority of mankind bowed to idols every single day and
                                thought it was perfectly acceptable. You would have been a stranger or the odd one out if you were not doing so at one time.

                                Look at it today, complete u-turn.

                                We dont "make peace" with it, we "deal with it", what will count is your effort not how many you guide.

                                The future of Mankind is Tawheed, so there is no point in being pessimistic, Allah will complete His light, with our 2 cents or without it.

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