The Taliban and Women

[abuahmed]

Source: http://www.azzam.com/html/talibanwomen.htm

The treatment of women in Afghanistan is a subject that the Western Media and Feminists have concentrated their ideological warfare efforts on. They have based their 'reports' and analyses on a number of interviews with Communist women, whose idea of 'freedom' is similar to the freedom given to women in the West, i.e. that all women should make all parts of their bodies available to men to view and use; that in order to be good you must look good (thus creating an inferioriety complex and problems such as Anorexia eating disorders in young women who cannot accept that they do not look like beautiful models) and the use of naked and half-naked women to sell everything from cars to toilet paper. It is important to look at the policies of the Taliban as regards women and the facts in the country itself, as reported by independent journalists.

Women's Life Conditions Presently and Under Rabbani Regime

The Islâmic Emirate of Afghanistan is fully committed to the social, cultural and economic development of women. The government has been able to protect the honor, life and property of Afghan women. Contrary to the situation under the Rabbani regime, women can now be outside their houses safely without the fear of being kidnaped, raped or looted. They no longer fear conditions that were common during the Rabbani regime. According to amnesty international reports of 1992-95, women in Afghanistan bore the brunt of the atrocities by the Rabbani regime and other armed factions. Irresponsible commanders and gunmen not only violated the honor of women by raping them but mutilated women's bodies and in many cases, cut their breasts etc. Similarly, common was murder, torture and execution of our people by the armed factions. Due to the intolerable atrocities, the Taleban Islâmic Movement emerged to deliver the defenseless Afghan people from the cruel hands of the warlords. One should ask oneself, is women's freedom to be raped with their breasts cut, or is it to freely live their lives without fear of even comments being made at them.

The former regime that did not serve the country had employed women in a number of sectors without any real need. Some of them were used just for the sexual entertainment of the bureaucracy. Due to the ineffective and immoral institutions, they have temporarily been relieved of their duties. The government pays them their salaries regularly. But women whose work is really needed, are still working in the health, education and security sectors. As conditions in the country improve, so will, doubtlessly, job opportunities for women.

Restoration of Women's Safety, Dignity and Freedom

Being highly concerned about the well-being of its female citizens, the Islâmic Emirate of Afghanistan, soon introduced measures to put a stop to the miserable living conditions under which the women lived in Kabul. After the communists took over in Kabul, they began to exploit women for the purpose of advancing their political and social agendas. In spite of war condition in the country and with no work in the offices, the communist regime forced a large number of women to attend government offices only for their amusement.

The Islâmic Emirate decided to pay the salaries of these women at their homes, so that they could stay home and take care of their families and children. The purpose of this policy is to help revive the Afghan family and household, as the foundation of the Afghan society, a foundation that was intentionally destroyed by the communist regime.

The Islâmic Emirate of Afghanistan is determined to provide educational and employment opportunities for the women of Afghanistan, as soon as the security and financial circumstances under which the Islâmic Emirate operates allow such a step to be taken. In the meantime, the Islâmic Emirate of Afghanistan will try to acquire the resources and build the facilities that would make the separate education of women possible.

Observance of Islâmic Hejab or the Veil

The enforcement of the code of Islâmic Hejab by the Islâmic Emirate of Afghanistan is fully consistent with the Islâmic beliefs of Afghans and the traditions of the Afghan society. Wearing a veil is common among women all over Afghanistan. Islam and Afghan tradition attach the greatest importance to the honor and safety of women in the society.

To comply with the Islâmic code of Hejab, as well as to reduce the degree of threat to the personal safety of women, the Islâmic Emirate of Afghanistan is asking the women to observe the Islâmic Hejab, and cover their faces in public. This is a measure that is undertaken for the simple reason of protecting the honor, dignity, and personal safety of the women in Afghanistan.

Women's Education in the Islâmic Emirate of Afghanistan

Based on the holy teachings of Islam, the Islâmic Emirate of Afghanistan considers education as the pillar of a healthy and prosperous individual and social life. The Islâmic Emirate is determined to provide educational opportunities for all Afghans irrespective of gender, race, tribe, language, or regional affiliations.

The Islâmic Emirate of Afghanistan considers education to be obligatory equally for men and women according to the tenets of Islam. This is a clear verdict of our religion. However, currently the country is in shambles, its economic structure destroyed and education facilities turned to rubble like much else in the country. Afghanistan requires appropriate foreign assistance to rebuild every aspect of educational institutions.

The present war situation imposed and fueled by foreign powers diverts from Afghanistan's already meager national resources that would be better allocated to opening more schools. Larger and more centrally-run schools in urban areas present the greatest challenge. Secondly, the Afghans do not trust the communist-style curriculum. We have to restore the trust of the common people in government-run education. We also need to compile a new curriculum that will answer to the needs of our society. Thirdly, the war has created a huge brain drain in all sectors including education. In order to successfully tackle restoration of educational, economic, political and social institutions, the government wants to attract Afghan professionals and intellectuals living abroad. We want them to take part in the reconstruction of their country. Without their full participation in the rehabilitation and development efforts, the Islâmic Emirate will not be able to tackle these issues successfully.

The conditions today for the implementation of a sound, effective, and Islâmic educational program for the women of Afghanistan are nonexistent. Over ninety percent of school buildings have been ruined by the war. Qualified teachers have left the country. School books are full of communist propaganda and indoctrination material. Because of past abuses of the educational system for the purpose of propagating atheist ideology and ideas, the great majority of Afghan fathers and mothers have lost faith in schools and secular education. Last but not least, in spite of its deep desire to activate the schooling system in the country, the Islâmic Emirate of Afghanistan has been facing great difficulties in securing the financial and physical resources needed to provide security for the schools, reconstruct school buildings, print new books, acquire the necessary materials and pay for qualified and dependable teachers.

The limited amount of resources at the disposal of the Islâmic Emirate are being used to finance a war that has been imposed on Afghanistan by the brazen and open intervention of countries such as Iran, Russia, Uzbekistan and India. Intervention by these countries, and the resulting terrorist activities launched against the innocent men and women of Afghanistan by groups affiliated to these countries, have made the task of providing security for schools and public buildings, particularly girl's schools, extremely difficult.

Currently Operating Girls' Schools

Despite the limited economic resources of the Islâmic Emirate of Afghanistan to fund educational institutes, universities in Qandahar, Kabul and Nangrahar provinces are operating as usual. Several NGOs have been allowed to fund schools in Afghanistan, besides the schools funded by the government.

Contrary to reports about girls education in the press, the figures obtained from the education sector in Afghanistan, reveal that girls education in rural Afghanistan is increasing. According to a survey conducted by the Swedish Committee for Afghanistan (SCA), almost 80 per cent of the girls schools located in rural areas under the administration of the Islâmic Emirate of Afghanistan are operating in full swing. Ms. Pia Karlsson, education advisor at the Education Technical Support Unit (ETSU) of SCA, said in a recent interview published by the Frontier Post, a Peshawar based English daily that only in Ghazni province, where the Islâmic Emirate under the leadership of TIMA has control for the last two years, approximately 85 per cent of the girls are still in schools. Ms. Karlsson says, "The picture outside the cities is totally different."

The SCA which has been supporting elementary education in Afghanistan since 1984, currently supports 422 boys schools, 125 girls schools and 897 mixed schools (co-education) in the forms of primary schools and home schools. During the survey, she concentrated on 100 SCA supported girls schools in the nine provinces: Kabul, Kunar, Laghman, Ningarhar, Ghzani, Logar, Paktika, Paktya and Wardak. All these provinces are under the administration of the Islâmic Emirate of Afghanistan. According to the survey, female attendance was at 94 per cent and of the 7834 girls enrolled, 7341 were found present. More significantly, at least 170 female teachers were found teaching in these schools. Similarly, in Kunduz province, 122 schools are operating with 390 female teachers teaching at the schools. The Islâmic Emirate is ready to open girls and boys schools with appropriate foreign assistance.

Female Health Sector

Health facilities for women have increased 200% during Taleban administration. Prior to the Taleban Islâmic Movement's taking control of Kabul, there were 350 beds in all hospitals in Kabul. Currently, there are more than 950 beds for women in exclusive women's hospitals. Some hospitals which have specifically been allocated to women include Rabia Balkhi Hospital, Malali Hospital, Khair Khana Hospital, Indira Gandhi Child Health Hospital, Atta Turk Hospital, Kuwait Red Crescent Hospital, Contagious Disease Hospital and T.B. Hospital. Moreover, there are 32 mother and child health clinics. In addition to this, women receive treatment at ICRC and the Sandy Gal Orthopaedic Centers. In all these hospitals and clinics, women work as doctors and nurses to provide health services to female patients.

RELATED (as at 26th May 2001):

[UmmahUmmah]

listen, i'm not saying the west treats women perfectly, but you cannot be serious in saying that women are so lucky under the taleban

[Al-Irhaab]

listen, i'm not saying the west treats women perfectly, but you cannot be serious in saying that women are so lucky under the taleban

they were not lucky, they were blessed mashallah

[Eemaan]

is that link working for anyone else?

[Islamiyyah]

listen, i'm not saying the west treats women perfectly, but you cannot be serious in saying that women are so lucky under the taleban

Yes I agree with al-Irhaab. They are blessed. I would give so much to be in their place.

[Medievalist]

Truth has come and falsehood shall perish for falsehood by its very nature is doomed to perish.

[sithara]

Unfortunately, what is missing from both the lambasts by the West and article above which claims that women well off in Afghanistan is the actual voice of Afghan women. I would like to know whether they feel they are blessed under the Taliban regime, under the communists, both, or neither.

From the little I know, the article is absolutely correct- life for many women was quite horrible under Soviet occupation- women feared for their safety, rape was common.

However, I have a feeling that the article is candy coating the life for women under the Taliban situation- sounds a bit like pro-Taliban propaganda to me.

I don't know about Afghans per se, but if they are anything like many traditional Indians and Pakistanis, their neighbors (whom I DO know) then no, they don't believe women's education is important, and yes, women are often treated terribly. Abuse is quite common.

The spirit of paying women (who were 'temporarily' dismissed from their government posts) to take care of their family is very noble. Unfortunately, I have to doubt to what extent this is actually taking place. Is there really money for this, especially in a situation of great instability?

About the burqa being a part of traditional Afghan culture, perhaps it was historically, but in at least in the cities it seems to have fallen out of use (yes, perhaps due to the communists). Forcing women to wear if they do not want to it is not appropriate. (Note, I am not taking about modest dress, hijab, or even niqab here- I am referring to the overbearing burqa that women are forced to wear.)

[Medievalist]

The only city where women in a significant minority left the burqa was Kabul - Kandahar, Jalalabad kept it - the people of herat kept their chador.

[Kal-El]

Truth has come and falsehood shall perish for falsehood by its very nature is doomed to perish.

Arrogance, however, will never.

[Qualitex]

listen, i'm not saying the west treats women perfectly, but you cannot be serious in saying that women are so lucky under the taleban

I Agree.

[Fudhayl]

I Agree.

You would.

[Qualitex]

And i do.

[sithara]

While I have no doubt that at least some of the West's concern over the plight of women in Afghanistan is sincere (although perhaps some of it is misplaced due to cultural misunderstanding) one does have to question whether US government and media support of Afghan women is sincere.

Michael Moore brings this up in his film, FARENHEIT 911- that the Bush administration initially courted the Taliban, hoping to get their permission to build a lucrative oil pipeline in Central Asia. Not too many cared about the treatment of women in the Taliban regime at that time.

Well, the Taliban refused the Bush Administration offer. Next thing you know, there is a great chorous that the Taliban are evil abusers of women.

Interesting, the US supports the enemies of Taliban, such as the Northern Alliance and others. From everything I hear though, they treat women very similarly as the Taliban. Yet in the West there is little uproar of the treatment of women by the Northern Alliance or other groups. But bad treatment of women has almost become synonymous with the Taliban.

Note, I am not trying to apologize for the Taliban here. I for one do have a number of concerns about how they purportedly treat women. I just don't think the western governments/media that are orchestrating anti-Taliban pro-women sentiment in the West are genuine in their concern for women. Rather, Afghan women are used as pawns to push a political-economic agenda.

If the Taliban had agreed to the oil pipelines, we wouldn't have heard a peep about how they treated women. Interestingly, the Karzai government, once it came into power, did agree to the pipelines. Now all you hear is how life is getting better for women in Afghanistan.

Is it really? Dig deep and one hears that things are much the same...only there is greater instability since the US led invasion...

[Qualitex]

The Truth.

[Al-Irhaab]

While I have no doubt that at least some of the West's concern over the plight of women in Afghanistan is sincere (although perhaps some of it is misplaced due to cultural misunderstanding) one does have to question whether US government and media support of Afghan women is sincere.

Michael Moore brings this up in his film, FARENHEIT 911- that the Bush administration initially courted the Taliban, hoping to get their permission to build a lucrative oil pipeline in Central Asia. Not too many cared about the treatment of women in the Taliban regime at that time.

Well, the Taliban refused the Bush Administration offer. Next thing you know, there is a great chorous that the Taliban are evil abusers of women.

Interesting, the US supports the enemies of Taliban, such as the Northern Alliance and others. From everything I hear though, they treat women very similarly as the Taliban. Yet in the West there is little uproar of the treatment of women by the Northern Alliance or other groups. But bad treatment of women has almost become synonymous with the Taliban.

Note, I am not trying to apologize for the Taliban here. I for one do have a number of concerns about how they purportedly treat women. I just don't think the western governments/media that are orchestrating anti-Taliban pro-women sentiment in the West are genuine in their concern for women. Rather, Afghan women are used as pawns to push a political-economic agenda.

If the Taliban had agreed to the oil pipelines, we wouldn't have heard a peep about how they treated women. Interestingly, the Karzai government, once it came into power, did agree to the pipelines. Now all you hear is how life is getting better for women in Afghanistan.

Is it really? Dig deep and one hears that things are much the same...only there is greater instability since the US led invasion...

the taliban treat women much different than the northern alliance...

they dont go around raping, pimping elsaving women... they freed them from oppression and protected their dignity mashallah....

women were blessed under the taliban

[Abu Mus'ab]

I Agree.

No surprise there.

[sithara]

the taliban treat women much different than the northern alliance...

they dont go around raping, pimping elsaving women... they freed them from oppression and protected their dignity mashallah....

women were blessed under the taliban

You make an excellent point, Al-Irhaab. I really have not heard that the Taliban rape and pimp women. Enslaving is another issue- not sure exactly what definition of enslavement you are using here. Has anyone else heard this about the Taliban? But I have indeed heard this about the Northern Alliance.

But its not for ANY of us to say whether Afghan women were blessed or not under the Taliban. Its for them to say. And as I said before, their voice is missing from the debate.

[Aseer]

I Agree.

I thought you might.

(sorry i had to get my 2 pence worth!!)

[Qualitex]

Well, better treatment than US and west, and Northern Alliance whatever the hell that is...HELL YEA...best it can be and flaw less treatment? no...i'm sorry.

[sithara]

Here is a brief summary about the Northern Alliance:

"The Northern Alliance was a term used by the Western media, Taliban and Al-Qaeda to identify the United Islamic Front for the Salvation of Afghanistan (UIF), a military-political coalition of various Afghan groups [multi-ethnic- non-Pashtun] fighting against the Taliban and supported by Russia and Iran before 9/11 attacks....With extensive assistance from US Air Support and Special Forces, the UIF succeeded in retaking most of Afghanistan from the Taliban in early 2002." From Wikipedia.

I found some information about what some women in Afghanistan think about the different ruling groups there, and its quite revealing (see Rawa.org for more information.) RAWA, the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan, is secular feminist organization of women in Afghanistan. Thus, they clearly do not represent all Afghan women. Interestingly, this group denounces the NA even more strongly than they denounce the Taliban. Taliban are blamed for being fundamentalists who curtail women's rights, but NA is blamed for that AND for being murderers, rapists and wealthy opium producers (although the Taliban seems to have its share of murderers as well). Not surprisingly, RAWA strongly denounces the US for putting the NA backed Karzai government into power...

Clearly, members of RAWA did not feel feel blessed under the Taliban regime. Not even close. But they also did not feel blessed under the Soviets,who they strongly denounce for murdering their founder, "Martyred Meena" who organized against their regime.

Now, RAWA members feel that things are even worse under NA backed Karzai regime- at the same time the US and the West are crowing that things are getting better, because of the Karzai governmment made what seem to be mostly empty statements- things like women can now return to work (Hmmm...in all the chaos and instability, with risks of being attacked, even raped...) Of course very few in the west care about really investigating the matter, because the Karzai regime is a puppet for the US/West interests. Again, Afghan women's plight is not a real concern- Afghan women are pawns in a larger political-economic agenda.

[RockPlace]

While I have no doubt that at least some of the West's concern over the plight of women in Afghanistan is sincere (although perhaps some of it is misplaced due to cultural misunderstanding) one does have to question whether US government and media support of Afghan women is sincere.

Michael Moore brings this up in his film, FARENHEIT 911- that the Bush administration initially courted the Taliban, hoping to get their permission to build a lucrative oil pipeline in Central Asia. Not too many cared about the treatment of women in the Taliban regime at that time.

Well, the Taliban refused the Bush Administration offer. Next thing you know, there is a great chorous that the Taliban are evil abusers of women.

You make some interesting points, but I wanted to clarify this for you so as not to sway your opinion about the Tailban. Bush never courted the Taliban, or tried to build a pipeline. Unocal proposed a pipeline in the 90's and met with the Taliban officials, who entered the US under permisson from Clinton. The plan was scrapped though by Unocal, and Bush, governor of Texas at the time, was not part of the discussion.

[AnisahDavid]

Salaam alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatu,

Brother Don't do to others you don't want done to us!

You state "similar to the freedom given to women in the West, i.e. that all women should make all parts of their bodies available to men to view and use"

I don't know if you became the spokesman for "women in the west" and I just didn't vote for you or what; but I grew up all my life in "the West". In fact perhaps farther west than most of you, since I grew up in the WESTERN part of the United States.

I have NEVER believed or have I been taught that my body should be "available to men to view and use". In fact it was just the opposite. Modesty was promoted in my very typical American family.

As a convert, I am so tired of Muslims wishing to condemn immodest behavior by generalizing like this. It looses any respectability as an argument when you exaggerate.

Let us not lower ourselves to a level we say we do not like the anti-modesty crowd are doing to us.

As a woman who is the founder of an organization "Covered Women 4 God" which is interfaith and discusses the issue of modesty in our modern times & the lack of support in many societies for modest dress of women (of any faith or philosophy) I would like to say we need to keep this issue clean and straight forward.

I know personally that even in "Muslim" countries hijab wearing women are being pushed out of educational facilities, government buildings & jobs, and public life (ie tv station spots). Yet Muslims instead point to the "West". The "West" doesn't own those television stations or control those governments or societies who are attacking modesty. Yet many Muslims seem unconcerned that these so called Muslim countries are stripping modestly covered women from their rights to equal access to education & jobs.

As for the Taliban situation & women - & how they are portrayed in the West.... that too could be resolved IF Muslim men would permit and back female representatives speaking out against these feminists.

However, most of the time, the men insist they have to be the spokemen for Islam at public forums or on tv, etc. What happens is it feeds the stereotype that women aren't allowed to play a role in public Muslim life.

This isn't the reality of the time of the Prophet Women fought alongside the Prophet for the Ummah.

This fight (that we are in today) is no more dangerous, but the Muslim men seem unwilling to allow educated, knowledgeable women who understand feminist theories to speak on behalf of Islam. Why?

We claim Islam liberated women, but we aren't willing to allow the outside world to see that. Instead they see spokespeople who (1)often don't speak the language well, giving a since that the religion is "foreign" (2)people who are often not affiliated with the issue directly (ie men speaking on issues of women)

I love the veil, more so perhaps than most. Though I cant wear the veil like I used to, due to illness, I have spent years working to promote the rights of Muslim women (especially veiling women) & Modest women in general.

Yet, women like myself never get the support from our Muslim community like we should, even as speakers. Yet the issue of Women is the one the non-Muslim world has targeted, because they realize that it is the weakness in our community.

How many Brothers do you know who've studied western feminist theory? How many have read the books by Arab & Asian Muslims attacking Islam & promoting feminism? (These are the "tools" or "weapons" being used against Islam.) I have.

And there are other women like myself who could speak to these issues & educate many who truly wish to learn. But our voices are not being heard or allowed to be heard.

This is my webpage. It's the only place I've had to give dawah from, though I'm listed on the Muslim Student Association speakers bureau list.
http://www.angelfire.com/sd/AnisahDavid

[Kal-El]

People here are protective of the Taliban because of the deviated reputation the West has inspired; specifically regarding the treatment of women.

According to the Quran, there is/was nothing with the general status and characteristics of women in that society under Taliban control.

However, according to the West's, the treatment and status of women in that society was completely unacceptable as it was suggestive of oppression and abuse.

There, you now have the two opposing sides. I'm not sure how many sisters on this forum would run to the Taliban or someone similar to seek similar status and treatment they give they're women; but both genders here are very protective of the volleys of insult that gets from Non-Muslims, and even sometimes other Muslims aswell.

So in many ways, it is futile to have a discussion about this politically, without getting into the specifics of the Quran, and the society/culture of people there in the first place.

We cannot apply our logic, onto theirs.

[Enigma Dreamer]

listen, i'm not saying the west treats women perfectly, but you cannot be serious in saying that women are so lucky under the taleban

S/he is 100% serious. Tell me, what can treat women better than the commandments of Allah (s.w.)? Whereas the west takes women are a mere onject of attarctions, we value them more than ourselevs for they are queens and we treat them best for life to GENUINE Muslim means treating their women best. Just think of this. The prophet (s.a.w.) said.
''The best among u is the one that treats his spouse well and I am the best to his spouses'' See? What more do u want?

[single_voice]

S/he is 100% serious. Tell me, what can treat women better than the commandments of Allah (s.w.)? Whereas the west takes women are a mere onject of attarctions, we value them more than ourselevs for they are queens and we treat them best for life to GENUINE Muslim means treating their women best. Just think of this. The prophet (s.a.w.) said.
''The best among u is the one that treats his spouse well and I am the best to his spouses'' See? What more do u want?

What bubble of reality to you exist in? Muslim means treating women the best really? Wasn't it the Taliban that denied anything but the most primitive education to girls, restricted women doctors working in hospitals (in fact pretty much everywhere). Is that good? Perhaps in your book maybe, but what about the girls the women themselves. What would some Taliban father say when his daughter said 'father I want to be a doctor?' Would he have supported her in her choices? What do you think?

have you ever actually asked a woman in Afghanistan what she/they thought of the Talliban. Or does the 'word of God' preclude you in having a dialogue with the peoples if affected most? Try it sometimes, the Afghanies I met loated them with a passion and the women I have met, you really don't want to hear with many of them would like to do with their leaders.

[Arsalan]

Have you actually lived under the tlaiban to make all these accusaitons?

Where are you sourcing your info from. Then we can judge and give it credibility.

Your various thoughts have been continually defuncted on this forum on many threads in the last 2/3 years. Seriously we have 20 page threads on this...

What bubble of reality to you exist in? Muslim means treating women the best really? Wasn't it the Taliban that denied anything but the most primitive education to girls, restricted women doctors working in hospitals (in fact pretty much everywhere). Is that good? Perhaps in your book maybe, but what about the girls the women themselves. What would some Taliban father say when his daughter said 'father I want to be a doctor?' Would he have supported her in her choices? What do you think?

have you ever actually asked a woman in Afghanistan what she/they thought of the Talliban. Or does the 'word of God' preclude you in having a dialogue with the peoples if affected most? Try it sometimes, the Afghanies I met loated them with a passion and the women I have met, you really don't want to hear with many of them would like to do with their leaders.

[Enigma Dreamer]

What bubble of reality to you exist in? Muslim means treating women the best really? Wasn't it the Taliban that denied anything but the most primitive education to girls, restricted women doctors working in hospitals (in fact pretty much everywhere). Is that good? Perhaps in your book maybe, but what about the girls the women themselves. What would some Taliban father say when his daughter said 'father I want to be a doctor?' Would he have supported her in her choices? What do you think?

have you ever actually asked a woman in Afghanistan what she/they thought of the Talliban. Or does the 'word of God' preclude you in having a dialogue with the peoples if affected most? Try it sometimes, the Afghanies I met loated them with a passion and the women I have met, you really don't want to hear with many of them would like to do with their leaders.

I am not surprised at all. Fed by the U.S. and its allies notion of Islam. Do u know that for thje fast time the Talibans built a Medicine school for sisters in Kabul? Why not give urself a break from the western media and spend few seconds on the reality. By Allah, NO ONE can treat women better than Muslims. I am repaeing, the prophet (s.a.w) said, ''The BEST''
We don't display the of our great queens on the streets, we uphold their lives to who they are. Indeed, they are QUEENS, NEVER an object as u wanna display them.

[sithara]

You make some interesting points, but I wanted to clarify this for you so as not to sway your opinion about the Tailban. Bush never courted the Taliban, or tried to build a pipeline. Unocal proposed a pipeline in the 90's and met with the Taliban officials, who entered the US under permisson from Clinton. The plan was scrapped though by Unocal, and Bush, governor of Texas at the time, was not part of the discussion.

My brief web searching experience (typing in 'Bush administration' 'taliban' and 'unocal') may suggest a different picture. Seems Unocal proposed the pipeline in the 90s as you suggested. They invited the Taliban for talks to the US (treated them quite extravagantly) in Sugarland Texas (Dec 1997, during the Clinton Administration). Bush was governer of Texas then, and probably knew about the meeting, since the Bush family has strong links to the oil industry.

Hamid Kharzai may have been a top advisor to UNOCAL (Unocal and Kharzai both deny this).

Most importantly, the pipeline project received the go-ahead in May 2002, after Taliban were rooted out and Kharzai got into power (although I admit I am not clear on the role of UNOCAL itself- a few report I read said it is trying to distance itself from all this now...)

[Al-Irhaab]

Salaam alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatu,

Brother Don't do to others you don't want done to us!

You state "similar to the freedom given to women in the West, i.e. that all women should make all parts of their bodies available to men to view and use"

I don't know if you became the spokesman for "women in the west" and I just didn't vote for you or what; but I grew up all my life in "the West". In fact perhaps farther west than most of you, since I grew up in the WESTERN part of the United States.

I have NEVER believed or have I been taught that my body should be "available to men to view and use". In fact it was just the opposite. Modesty was promoted in my very typical American family.

As a convert, I am so tired of Muslims wishing to condemn immodest behavior by generalizing like this. It looses any respectability as an argument when you exaggerate.

Let us not lower ourselves to a level we say we do not like the anti-modesty crowd are doing to us.

As a woman who is the founder of an organization "Covered Women 4 God" which is interfaith and discusses the issue of modesty in our modern times & the lack of support in many societies for modest dress of women (of any faith or philosophy) I would like to say we need to keep this issue clean and straight forward.

I know personally that even in "Muslim" countries hijab wearing women are being pushed out of educational facilities, government buildings & jobs, and public life (ie tv station spots). Yet Muslims instead point to the "West". The "West" doesn't own those television stations or control those governments or societies who are attacking modesty. Yet many Muslims seem unconcerned that these so called Muslim countries are stripping modestly covered women from their rights to equal access to education & jobs.

As for the Taliban situation & women - & how they are portrayed in the West.... that too could be resolved IF Muslim men would permit and back female representatives speaking out against these feminists.

However, most of the time, the men insist they have to be the spokemen for Islam at public forums or on tv, etc. What happens is it feeds the stereotype that women aren't allowed to play a role in public Muslim life.

This isn't the reality of the time of the Prophet Women fought alongside the Prophet for the Ummah.

This fight (that we are in today) is no more dangerous, but the Muslim men seem unwilling to allow educated, knowledgeable women who understand feminist theories to speak on behalf of Islam. Why?

We claim Islam liberated women, but we aren't willing to allow the outside world to see that. Instead they see spokespeople who (1)often don't speak the language well, giving a since that the religion is "foreign" (2)people who are often not affiliated with the issue directly (ie men speaking on issues of women)

I love the veil, more so perhaps than most. Though I cant wear the veil like I used to, due to illness, I have spent years working to promote the rights of Muslim women (especially veiling women) & Modest women in general.

Yet, women like myself never get the support from our Muslim community like we should, even as speakers. Yet the issue of Women is the one the non-Muslim world has targeted, because they realize that it is the weakness in our community.

How many Brothers do you know who've studied western feminist theory? How many have read the books by Arab & Asian Muslims attacking Islam & promoting feminism? (These are the "tools" or "weapons" being used against Islam.) I have.

And there are other women like myself who could speak to these issues & educate many who truly wish to learn. But our voices are not being heard or allowed to be heard.

This is my webpage. It's the only place I've had to give dawah from, though I'm listed on the Muslim Student Association speakers bureau list.
http://www.angelfire.com/sd/AnisahDavid

feminists have no right to speak about our sisters or about islam in general or particular from the muslim point of view

we dont need feminists when we have plenty of ulema male and female who can clarify the view of islam...

islam did not come to liberate women from the oppression of men, it came to liberate mankind from the oppression of kufr and from their nafs and the obedience of shaitan and the laws of the accursed...

liberation can be seen by oppression as some... but the most liberated amongst the muslim women is the one that has the most ease in obeying and practicing islam, not the one who can go out the most or speak in public the most....

[umme ahmed]

liberation can be seen by oppression as some... but the most liberated amongst the muslim women is the one that has the most ease in obeying and practicing islam, not the one who can go out the most or speak in public the most....

[sithara]

I am not surprised at all. Fed by the U.S. and its allies notion of Islam. Do u know that for thje fast time the Talibans built a Medicine school for sisters in Kabul? Why not give urself a break from the western media and spend few seconds on the reality. By Allah, NO ONE can treat women better than Muslims. I am repaeing, the prophet (s.a.w) said, ''The BEST''
We don't display the of our great queens on the streets, we uphold their lives to who they are. Indeed, they are QUEENS, NEVER an object as u wanna display them.

Salams, Enigma Dreamer,

I know you mean well, but:

1. As a Muslim woman, I don't want to be 'a great queen', or an 'object' I want to be a human being.

2. In both scenarios you portray, women are weak, powerless creatures completely under the control of men. In the "Islamic" situation, women are queens who are completely under the control of men- who have decided not to display them. In the "Western" situation, women are objects who are completely under the control of men who do want to display them. (ultimately, then the great queen is an object- after all, both are powerless!) I say both situations are not acceptable.

Ultimately women should decide to what extent they display themselves or don't. Women should also have the right to make many other decisions in their lives. I personally choose to wear hijab because I do believe modesty is important. But its NOT for any man to tell me to do it- well, except the messeger of Allah.

As for the situation under the Taliban, at least some Afghan women themselves disagree with you. RAWA - The Revolutionary Association of Women of Afghanistan (rawa.org) did not think the treatment of women by the Taliban is that great. In fact, they thought it was quite negative, and they back up much of what Arsalan has to say. Yes, they are secular feminists, but they are Aghan women so the know the situation on the ground, which is more than what any of us can say! And no, they are not 'brought off' by the US because their criticism of the US (and its support of the Northern Alliance) is even more harsh than their criticism of the Taliban.

While it maybe true that "No one CAN treat women better than Muslims" this is too often an ideal that Muslim men fall far short of.

[sithara]

liberation can be seen by oppression as some... but the most liberated amongst the muslim women is the one that has the most ease in obeying and practicing islam, not the one who can go out the most or speak in public the most....

But why can't we do both- ie, obey Allah and have our voices heard? Aisha RA it seems to me did both beautifully - As Aisha's example shows, the voice of women is at times absolutely CRITICAL.

[RockPlace]

My brief web searching experience (typing in 'Bush administration' 'taliban' and 'unocal') may suggest a different picture.

No doubt, its a common claim used to support the "all about oil" charge.

But that isn't the topic, and I don't want to derail the thread.

Just wanted to point out that the US didn't change its position because of Unocal's oil pipeline.

[Al-Irhaab]

But why can't we do both- ie, obey Allah and have our voices heard? Aisha RA it seems to me did both beautifully - As Aisha's example shows, the voice of women is at times absolutely CRITICAL.

i never sad women cannot speak or teach or give dawah about islam etc etc

i said feminists cant speak about islam because feminisim and islam are two entirely different things...

its like having a homosexual give islams views on marriages... its impossible because homosexuality is against islam itself...

Aisha (ra) and the wives of the prophet (saW) and the wives of the sahaba (ra) are great examples for muslim women.. they taught and spoke about islam and taught each other and others about islam and helped raise a great new generation of young muslim males and females...

the ammount of good that can be done by a muslim female scholar mashallah ... they are the ones who have the right to speak about islam and about our sisters...

[sithara]

i never sad women cannot speak or teach or give dawah about islam etc etc

i said feminists cant speak about islam because feminisim and islam are two entirely different things...

its like having a homosexual give islams views on marriages... its impossible because homosexuality is against islam itself...

Aisha (ra) and the wives of the prophet (saW) and the wives of the sahaba (ra) are great examples for muslim women.. they taught and spoke about islam and taught each other and others about islam and helped raise a great new generation of young muslim males and females...

the ammount of good that can be done by a muslim female scholar mashallah ... they are the ones who have the right to speak about islam and about our sisters...

Okay, I think I get ya! Of course doing both is ideal (but obediance to God is of utmost importance to ALL human beings!)

But I do disagree with you a bit that feminism and Islam are 'two entirely different things.' I recognize that the most common view of femnism is that of the radical feminists, who hate men, despise motherhood, espouse lesbianism, shamelessly promote abortions, etc. Yes, Islam is entirely different from this view.

But there are actually many divisions within feminism - which reach vastly different conclusions on a number of things, including abortion, the value of motherhood, women's place in society, etc. For example, Cultural feminists want to create a 'woman's culture' that is separate from that of men- they believe this is the way women will best thrive. I don't think many Muslims would have a problem with this kid of feminism (not sure I buy it myself, though).

Furthermore, even if the dominant role of feminism today (the loudest voice is that of radical feminists) seems somewhat destructive, in the past, they were critical getting Western women many of the rights they now have- right to vote, own property, etc.

Of course, Islam gave us these rights well before that. But a healthy 'sort' of Islamic 'Feminism' (no, the term 'feminism doesn't have to be used) in the East (say Saudi Arabia) may help women regain the Islamic rights Allah has given us women that have been taken away.

Today, (non-radical) feminism offers extremely interesting insights on different psychological natures and moral reasoning of men versus women (for example, Carol Gilligan), the importance of a healthy natural environment, criticisms of corporate exploitation, etc. Some of these insights dovetail nicely with that of Islam

Feminism, then, is not the be all and end all of everything, but it is a tool that can be used (along with others- most importantly the Quran and Sunnah) to offer interesting and at times important insights, which can be used for social change.

[Enigma Dreamer]

Salams, Enigma Dreamer,

I know you mean well, but:

1. As a Muslim woman, I don't want to be 'a great queen', or an 'object' I want to be a human being.

2. In both scenarios you portray, women are weak, powerless creatures completely under the control of men. In the "Islamic" situation, women are queens who are completely under the control of men- who have decided not to display them. In the "Western" situation, women are objects who are completely under the control of men who do want to display them. (ultimately, then the great queen is an object- after all, both are powerless!) I say both situations are not acceptable.

Ultimately women should decide to what extent they display themselves or don't. Women should also have the right to make many other decisions in their lives. I personally choose to wear hijab because I do believe modesty is important. But its NOT for any man to tell me to do it- well, except the messeger of Allah.

As for the situation under the Taliban, at least some Afghan women themselves disagree with you. RAWA - The Revolutionary Association of Women of Afghanistan (rawa.org) did not think the treatment of women by the Taliban is that great. In fact, they thought it was quite negative, and they back up much of what Arsalan has to say. Yes, they are secular feminists, but they are Aghan women so the know the situation on the ground, which is more than what any of us can say! And no, they are not 'brought off' by the US because their criticism of the US (and its support of the Northern Alliance) is even more harsh than their criticism of the Taliban.

While it maybe true that "No one CAN treat women better than Muslims" this is too often an ideal that Muslim men fall far short of.

Well, some Muslim men may fall short of the ideal as u say but that is not to say that ideal is inexistent. Me, I have never seen Rawa but I would substitute the place of the 'women' with 'western'.
And the last time, I CHECKED, virtually all men yearn being kings, so are the women. My message to u is, if u don't think Islam treats u better, try the other way and then tell me how much u liked it.
And thanks for the contribution.

[sithara]

Well, some Muslim men may fall short of the ideal as u say but that is not to say that ideal is inexistent. Me, I have never seen Rawa but I would substitute the place of the 'women' with 'western'.
And the last time, I CHECKED, virtually all men yearn being kings, so are the women. My message to u is, if u don't think Islam treats u better, try the other way and then tell me how much u liked it.
And thanks for the contribution.

Salams, Enigma Dreamer!

I think we disagree on many things. Oh well, thats the nature of life.

A few things:

RAWA maybe feminist and secular in their orientation, but that does not mean they are slaves to the West. Please check their website (rawa.org) before making snap judgements. They criticize the west EVEN MORE than they criticize the Taliban. Also, they are women and they are Afghan women. So they have much more of a right to judge what is going on in Afghanistan than you or I do.

I'm not sure what method you used to check that 'virtually all men yearn to be Kings.' Many of the men and women I know are not interested in royalty. Some us us want to live humble lives pleasing God (something to strive for), not lavish lives in a court lording over others. Many of the greatest Islamic scholars lived very simple, austere lives (Hasan Al Basri for one.)

To be perfectly honest, I do not understand some of Islam's requirements regarding gender relations, and the role of women. Its something I am striving to understand better. Clearly the issue is a lack of understanding on my part, not a flaw in Islam (once all the negative cultural attributes are thrown out- the tricky issue of course is to decide what is culture and what is Islam).

In either case, there are soooooooooooooooooo many more reasons to be Muslim than simply the issue of women and gender relations. If I stopped becoming Muslim because there is one issue I don't quite understand, but I agree with EVERYTHING else, that would be, well, stupid to say the least.

I choose to be Muslim because I believe in one God, and that Muhammad (s) is his messenger. I have come to the conclusion based on my meager understanding of the Quran, my study of science, and from the peace and clarity I get when I pray to Him. I choose to be Muslim because of the justice and brother/sisterhood that Islam endorses with encouragement of Zakat and charity and the good treatment of our parents, orphans, the poor and the sick. I choose to be Muslim because I believe in the end, we are accountable for our deeds and will face Jannah (Insha Allah) or Jahanam (hell, may Allah protect us!) And there are many many more reasons.

Islam is a fantastic religion - there are simply some bits here and there I still need to work on understanding better within the whole majestic framework.

[Enigma Dreamer]

Salams, Enigma Dreamer!

I think we disagree on many things. Oh well, thats the nature of life.

A few things:

RAWA maybe feminist and secular in their orientation, but that does not mean they are slaves to the West. Please check their website (rawa.org) before making snap judgements. They criticize the west EVEN MORE than they criticize the Taliban. Also, they are women and they are Afghan women. So they have much more of a right to judge what is going on in Afghanistan than you or I do.

I'm not sure what method you used to check that 'virtually all men yearn to be Kings.' Many of the men and women I know are not interested in royalty. Some us us want to live humble lives pleasing God (something to strive for), not lavish lives in a court lording over others. Many of the greatest Islamic scholars lived very simple, austere lives (Hasan Al Basri for one.)

To be perfectly honest, I do not understand some of Islam's requirements regarding gender relations, and the role of women. Its something I am striving to understand better. Clearly the issue is a lack of understanding on my part, not a flaw in Islam (once all the negative cultural attributes are thrown out- the tricky issue of course is to decide what is culture and what is Islam).

In either case, there are soooooooooooooooooo many more reasons to be Muslim than simply the issue of women and gender relations. If I stopped becoming Muslim because there is one issue I don't quite understand, but I agree with EVERYTHING else, that would be, well, stupid to say the least.

I choose to be Muslim because I believe in one God, and that Muhammad (s) is his messenger. I have come to the conclusion based on my meager understanding of the Quran, my study of science, and from the peace and clarity I get when I pray to Him. I choose to be Muslim because of the justice and brother/sisterhood that Islam endorses with encouragement of Zakat and charity and the good treatment of our parents, orphans, the poor and the sick. I choose to be Muslim because I believe in the end, we are accountable for our deeds and will face Jannah (Insha Allah) or Jahanam (hell, may Allah protect us!) And there are many many more reasons.

Islam is a fantastic religion - there are simply some bits here and there I still need to work on understanding better within the whole majestic framework.

Assalaamu aleykum.
Of course, difference in views are natural and welcome.
U took my words just from the top. I mean when I talked of being Queens or Kings, I wasn' talking about royalty. In fact, I don't belive in royalty and I am against it 'cause NEITHER the prophet Muhammed (s.a.w.) nor the 4 caliphates after him, were involved in such a thing as royalty. Islam is humble and so is a true Muslim. In fact, 'Aisha (r.a.) said the for THREE FULL MONTHS, NO FIRE was lit in the prophet's house (meaning they never cooked anything). When asked how they managed to live, she answered 'the two blacks' (meaning water and dates). But the royalty I was talking about is the great pleasure a Muslim finds in his/her iman, the joy s/he gets from fulfiling their responsibilties. When we say, the Muslim woman is a queen, we aren't talking about Queen Elizabeth or Buckingham palace; we are talking about the great joy and pleasure she finds in being with her children, raising them as great children who help the Musim ummah. So, hope u understand.
Me, I didn't mean to offend u, sis. But trust me, there are a lot of Islamic enemies who use everything at their disposal to disgrace the true religion. In this light, a Muslim has to reamin vigilant all the time. My opinion about rawa stands. To me, they are a tool used by the U.S., Islam's first enemy, no matter how much they pretend to be against the U.S. or they are just power hungry.
Finally, know that as Muslims, we don't compete with each other about our gender for none isuperior than the other EYCEPT by piety. The best of us is the most pious. Love is the order of the day between Muslims. A tuly Muslim woman knows that she CAN NOT have a better place than her house (if only the others would understand)
May I tahnk u again for ur contribution.

[sithara]

Assalaamu aleykum.
Of course, difference in views are natural and welcome.
U took my words just from the top. I mean when I talked of being Queens or Kings, I wasn' talking about royalty. When we say, the Muslim woman is a queen, we aren't talking about Queen Elizabeth or Buckingham palace; we are talking about the great joy and pleasure she finds in being with her children, raising them as great children who help the Musim ummah. So, hope u understand.

My opinion about rawa stands. To me, they are a tool used by the U.S., Islam's first enemy, no matter how much they pretend to be against the U.S. or they are just power hungry.

Finally, know that as Muslims, we don't compete with each other about our gender for none isuperior than the other EYCEPT by piety. The best of us is the most pious. Love is the order of the day between Muslims.

A tuly Muslim woman knows that she CAN NOT have a better place than her house (if only the others would understand)
May I tahnk u again for ur contribution.

Thanks Brother Enigma House!

I apologize, I did really misunderstand your use of royalty, and am not sure I still understand it- I'm not sure what being a queen has to do with the noble pursuits of taking care of the family, raising children, etc. It is indeed a very different usage of the term than I am aware of. But clearly you mean it in a good way...

I do disagree with you about RAWA- I'm not sure on what basis you think they are pretending to be against the US- they bitterly denounce the US because the US put up the horrible Northern Alliance. Makes sense to me. I think their account of what is going on in Afghanistan is incredibly valuable- taken with a grain of salt. They may not be ideal (as Muslims) but still offer a more complete view of what is going on in Afghanistan than any of us can offer. It would be good to hear the views of other women of Afghanistan, though- women who are not a part of RAWA.

As an American, I think we also disagree on the US being Islam's first enemy. Certainly the US government (especially the current administration) and the media mean Islam no good, but the US is certainly more than its government and media. It is a very diverse country with many diverse views (most of which unfortunately do not get through the biased media). Islam is the fastest growing religion here! But I guess thats a whole other discussion.

Yah I do admit I love my house It's a fabulous place of security. But hey, there are times when it is necessary and even very beneficial to go out- seek knowledge (in a mosque, the library, a school or university), do work to benefit the community, go to the grocery store to get food and other necessities, go to visit the poor to give charity or the sick in the hospital, or your family members and friends, do umrah and HAJJ .

[Fudhayl]

And i do.

And your banned, Alhamdulillah and Allahu Akbar!

Bad Bye, hope we never find you again on this forum.