Al-Kafi - The Shias Favourite Book

[Muawiya]

Assalaamu Alaykum

Ok, i have heard this book many times before, is it true it is your best book?Just before you answer, here are the scholars that have approved of this Shia-Bukhari....

[1] AlHur Al'amily said " The authors of the Four Books of shia ( Alkafi , AlIstibsaar , AlTahzeeb , Mun La YahDuruHu Alfaqeeh ) have testified that the Hadiths of their books are accurate (saheeh) , firm and well conducted from the roots that all shia agreed on , and if you consider those scholars ( the authors of the four books ) are reliable then you must accept their sayings and their narrations . " [ Alwasa'el , volume 20 , page 104 ]

[2] Sharaf'Deen AbdulHussain Mosawy said : " Alkafi , AlIsTibSaar , AlTahzeeb and Mun La YahduRuHu Alfaqeeh are *MutawaTirah* and agreed on the acuraty of its contents ( the Hadiths ) , and Alkafi is the oldest , greatest , best and the most accurate one of them " . [ The book of AlMuraja'aat , Muraj'ah number 110 ] ..... MutawaTirah = accurate 100% because it was narrated by many narrators .

[3] Muhammad Sadiq AlSaDr said : " Although The Shia are on the unanimity of that The four books ( Alkafi , AlIsTibSaar , AlTahzeeb and Mun La YahduRuHu Alfaqeeh ) are accepted and *all* the narrations in them are accurate ( Saheeh ), But they did not call them by the name ( Sihaah ) like AhlSunnah did ." . [ The Book of shia "Kitab alshia" page 127 ]

[4] AlTabRassy said : " Alkafi among the four shia books ( AlTahzeeb , Alkafi , AlIsTibSar , mun la YahDuruhu Alfaqeeh ) is like the sun among the stars , and who looked fairly would not need to notice the position of the men in the chain of hadiths in this Book , and if you looked fairly you would feel satisfied and sure that the hadiths are firm and accurate . " [ MusTaDrak AlWasa'el , volume 3 , page 532 ]

[5] AlKhomeini said : " Do you think it is enough for our religious life to have its laws summed up in AlKafi and then placed upon a shelf?" [ Al-Hukumah Al-Islamiyyah page 72 ]

Now, I think each and everyone of us is interested to know what this Book ( Alkafi ) contains, the book that made all those Shia Scholars praise it and recommend it, actually even blamed their followers for not applying more effort of studying and research as AlKhomeini said in his book ( Al-Hukumah Al-Islamiyyah page 72 ) !!

Ok, so now, with or without the permission of the shias, am going to put up some things this book has. But lets get the opinions of the shia first, Is this book the most reliable book for you people?

[Muawiya]

Yo shias, I just want a simple answer, yes or no, Is Al-kafi one of your most reliable books?

[The Strategist]

Yo shias, I just want a simple answer, yes or no, Is Al-kafi one of your most reliable books?

Let us say that the Shia are more sympathetic to Al Kafi than to any of the Sunni 'Sahih's. That said, I wish to make it known to everyone that it is HARAM for the Shia to accept any hadith as SAHIH unless he or she has compared it with the Quran and investigated if it does not contradict the Holy Book.

If any hadith, no matter what the isnad, contradicts the Quran, the Shia are instructed to reject it, even if it is reported in Al Kafi or in Bukhari. There are several narrations in Al Kafi, as there are in Bukhari, which the Shia reject. Just as there are several in both sources, which the Shia accept.

As for your simple answer, there is none. The religion of Islam is not meant for simple minds. It requires an intelligent mind to be able to differentiate between Osama bin Laden and the Ayatollah Khomeini. Between Abu Musab al Zarqawi and Ayatollah Hussain Ali Seestani.

It is the pursuit of simple answers that has made the Ummah lose the ability to find the difference between Imam Hussain bin Ali and 'Khalifah' Yazid bin Muawiyah.

[Guardian Hijab]

Asalamualaikum

wait, don't Shias believe that Aisha cheated on the Prophet(saws)...even the QURAN says otherwise?

Wa'alaikumasalam

[The Strategist]

Asalamualaikum

wait, don't Shias believe that Aisha cheated on the Prophet(saws)...even the QURAN says otherwise?

Wa'alaikumasalam

Wa alaikum Salam,

Great question. Jazak Allah for asking it.

To answer the question, no the Shia do NOT believe that Aisha 'cheated on the Prophet (s) '. Infact it was Ali who suggested that the Prophet (s) ask her maid and clarify the situation, when he was most distressed when she came back into Medina with Safwan. Finally the Quran clarified the true situation for the Prophet (s) and he was relieved.

The contention the Shia have against Aisha is for the fact that she opposed Ali in the Battle of Siffeen- the first fratricidal war in Islam against a Caliph of the Ummah. Aisha's conduct against the Bani Hashim when they wanted to bury Imam Hasan next to the Prophet (s) is another issue, when Ibn Abbas had said to her:

"Umm ul Momineen, you have come out against us riding on a camel first and now on a mule. Will you next ride an elephant*?"

* Hinting to the elephants of Abraha.

The Bani Hashim were forced to bury Imam Hasan in the public graveyard* rather than next to the Prophet (s) because Aisha refused permission saying it was 'her house and she had the right' to refuse permission.

That 'she cheated on the Prophet (s) is a lie propagated by the malicious propaganda aimed at discrediting the Shia.
__________________________________________________ _______
*According to his will, that if he was prevented from being buried beside his grandfather the Prophet (s) he should be buried in Jannat ul Baqi, to avoid conflict.

[Muawiya]

wait, don't Shias believe that Aisha cheated on the Prophet(saws)...even the QURAN says otherwise?

The Shias beleive many things sister.

Let us say that the Shia are more sympathetic to Al Kafi than to any of the Sunni 'Sahih's. That said, I wish to make it known to everyone that it is HARAM for the Shia to accept any hadith as SAHIH unless he or she has compared it with the Quran and investigated if it does not contradict the Holy Book.

Ok, now you are going against what these shia 'scholars' have said, I have listed them in my first post of this thread and they have said nothing bad or against Al-Kafi. They are all prasing this book, including that Khomeini guy. Now why is it that we find this filthy stuff in Al-Kafi when we dont find them in any 'Sunni Sahihs' such as bukhari? Here are some examples of what we would find in Al-Kafi. Inshallah, i will post a certain amount of this Books content over time. The following warning is no joke and I aply it to every one of my posts that covers the contents of Al-Kafi in this thread. A freind provided me with the following contents:

Warning: The following content is not for the faint hearted. Make sure you have not just eaten, of so, bring a bucket or something to take your meal back out.

[1] Chapter: The Imams have knowledge of All that was given to the angels and the prophets. ( AlKafi vol.1 p.255 )

[2] Chapter: The Imams know when they will die, and they only die by their choice. ( AlKafi vol.1 p.258 )

[3] Chapter: The Imams have knowledge of the past and future; and nothing is hidden from them. ( AlKafi vol.1 p.260 )

My COMMENT: No doubt that these words are clear Kufr (Disbelief) and Shirk (Polytheism), because the knowledge of the unseen is only for Allah alone .. These words with no doubt countradict what Allah said in Surah Luqmaan "Verily, Allah With Him (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour, He sends down the rain, and knows that which is in the wombs. No person knows what he will earn tommorow, and no person knows in what land he will die. Verily, Allah is All-Knower, All-Aware (of things)" [Quran 31:34]

[4] "Obedience to `Ali is true humility and disobedience to him is disbelief in Allah" ( AlKafi vol.10 p.54 )

[5] "Whoever sets up another Imam besides `Ali and delays `Ali's caliphate is a polytheist" ( AlKafi vol.10 p.55 )

My COMMENT: These words declare all AhlSunnah as kufaar (Disbelievers) and Mushrikeen (Polytheists), because we -AhlSunnah- do not believe in the Shia Imamate of `Ali ( which is believing that `Ali is Infallible,..etc ) also We -AhlSunnah- believe that Abubakr (r) is the first caliphate, Omar (r) the second and Othman (r) the third, thus, We delay `Ali's caliphate to be the 4th after Abubakr,Omar and Othman, thus, Shia declare in their most reliable book that AhlSunnah are Kufaar and Mushrikeen !!!

[6] The false verse "And We made `Ali your in-law" has been added to Surah Al-InShirah . ( AlKafi p.289 )

[7] Alkileeni reported that Jabir asked AbuJa`far p.b.u.h : "Why `Ali ibn Aby Talib was named Amir-ul-Mumineen?" AbuJa`far replied : "Allah named him so, and He revealed in His Book " And (remember) when your Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed and made them testify as to themselves (saying): Am I not your Lord, Muhammad my messenger and `Ali Amir-ul-Mumineen ?..." ( AlKafi vol.1 p.412 )

MY COMMENT: We all know that "Muhammad my messenger and `Ali Amir-ul-Mumineen" is not part of the Quranic verse [Quran 7:172], but as you just read, AlKileeni narrated in his book AlKafi that the Infallible Imam -according to Shia- ( AbuJa`far ) said that the verse [Quran 7:172] was revealed by Allah with "Muhammad my messenger and `Ali Amir-ul-Mumineen", This is a serious claim by Shia that the Quran was changed and corrupted !!! This is a serious "Tahreef" of the Holy Quran...

Ok, lets get the opinions of the Shia on what I have posted so far.....Ok, you have mentioned that you ppl dont accept the hadith that contradict with the Quran, what about all these scholars that have approved of this book ? Why didnt they say that it was unacceptable? Surely they are more knowledgable than you and I?

[The Strategist]

The Shias beleive many things sister.



Ok, now you are going against what these shia 'scholars' have said, I have listed them in my first post of this thread and they have said nothing bad or against Al-Kafi. They are all prasing this book, including that Khomeini guy. Now why is it that we find this filthy stuff in Al-Kafi when we dont find them in any 'Sunni Sahihs' such as bukhari? Here are some examples of what we would find in Al-Kafi. Inshallah, i will post a certain amount of this Books content over time. The following warning is no joke and I aply it to every one of my posts that covers the contents of Al-Kafi in this thread. A freind provided me with the following contents:

Warning: The following content is not for the faint hearted. Make sure you have not just eaten, of so, bring a bucket or something to take your meal back out.

[1] Chapter: The Imams have knowledge of All that was given to the angels and the prophets. ( AlKafi vol.1 p.255 )

[2] Chapter: The Imams know when they will die, and they only die by their choice. ( AlKafi vol.1 p.258 )

[3] Chapter: The Imams have knowledge of the past and future; and nothing is hidden from them. ( AlKafi vol.1 p.260 )

My COMMENT: No doubt that these words are clear Kufr (Disbelief) and Shirk (Polytheism), because the knowledge of the unseen is only for Allah alone .. These words with no doubt countradict what Allah said in Surah Luqmaan "Verily, Allah With Him (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour, He sends down the rain, and knows that which is in the wombs. No person knows what he will earn tommorow, and no person knows in what land he will die. Verily, Allah is All-Knower, All-Aware (of things)" [Quran 31:34]

[4] "Obedience to `Ali is true humility and disobedience to him is disbelief in Allah" ( AlKafi vol.10 p.54 )

[5] "Whoever sets up another Imam besides `Ali and delays `Ali's caliphate is a polytheist" ( AlKafi vol.10 p.55 )

My COMMENT: These words declare all AhlSunnah as kufaar (Disbelievers) and Mushrikeen (Polytheists), because we -AhlSunnah- do not believe in the Shia Imamate of `Ali ( which is believing that `Ali is Infallible,..etc ) also We -AhlSunnah- believe that Abubakr (r) is the first caliphate, Omar (r) the second and Othman (r) the third, thus, We delay `Ali's caliphate to be the 4th after Abubakr,Omar and Othman, thus, Shia declare in their most reliable book that AhlSunnah are Kufaar and Mushrikeen !!!

[6] The false verse "And We made `Ali your in-law" has been added to Surah Al-InShirah . ( AlKafi p.289 )

[7] Alkileeni reported that Jabir asked AbuJa`far p.b.u.h : "Why `Ali ibn Aby Talib was named Amir-ul-Mumineen?" AbuJa`far replied : "Allah named him so, and He revealed in His Book " And (remember) when your Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed and made them testify as to themselves (saying): Am I not your Lord, Muhammad my messenger and `Ali Amir-ul-Mumineen ?..." ( AlKafi vol.1 p.412 )

MY COMMENT: We all know that "Muhammad my messenger and `Ali Amir-ul-Mumineen" is not part of the Quranic verse [Quran 7:172], but as you just read, AlKileeni narrated in his book AlKafi that the Infallible Imam -according to Shia- ( AbuJa`far ) said that the verse [Quran 7:172] was revealed by Allah with "Muhammad my messenger and `Ali Amir-ul-Mumineen", This is a serious claim by Shia that the Quran was changed and corrupted !!! This is a serious "Tahreef" of the Holy Quran...

Ok, lets get the opinions of the Shia on what I have posted so far.....Ok, you have mentioned that you ppl dont accept the hadith that contradict with the Quran, what about all these scholars that have approved of this book ? Why didnt they say that it was unacceptable? Surely they are more knowledgable than you and I?

Muawiya.

Fear God and stop this fitnah. The fact that the Shia do consider the Twelve Imams and the Prophet (s) himself as infallible is no secret. The fact that the Shia consider the Imams as being the inheritors of the Ilm of the Prophet (s) is also no secret.

Yes, the Shia do not look favourably on the three 'Caliphs' who preceeded Ali to the position because the Shia believe that it was the exclusive domain of Ali and the Imams of the Alh ul Bayt to be the Imams of the Ummah and the Khalifah of the Prophet, as decreed by the Prophet (s) himself- a fact much hidden by the Bani Ommayah and Bani Abbas who hijacked the Caliphate for their own material gain. And now the House of Saud, the arch enemies of the Ahl ul Bayt in today's world, uses paid agents to mislead the Ummah by false propaganda against the Shia to distort the beliefs of the Shia for a gullible Ummah.

That the Shia believe that ANYONE- including Mauwiyah bin Sufiyan and Yazid bin Muawiyah - who took the office other than the Twelve Imams, were usurpers of the office of the Caliphate of the Holy Prophet (s) is also no secret.

So what on Earth are you trying to establish with this fitnah?

[Muawiya]

I am just showing us (including me) how wrong you shia's are! Now do you accept everything I have posted from the content of Al-Kafi, or do you reject some of them?

[The Strategist]

I am just showing us (including me) how wrong you shia's are! Now do you accept everything I have posted from the content of Al-Kafi, or do you reject some of them?

The Shia recognition of the true reality of the Prophet (s) himself is very different to that of the Sunni or the Wahabi. The Shia believe that the prophet was infallible. Some among the Sunni believe that. Others do not. The Wahabi do not believe that the Prophet (s) was infallible.

The Shia and the Sunni believe in the Tawassul of the Prophet (s) to seek nearness to Allah (swt). The Wahabi do not.

The Shia and the Sunni offer salams and salutations to the Prophet (s) when visiting his grave in Medina, for which we believe is a spiritual reward. The Wahabi consider it as Shirk and a Biddah.

So, leave the understanding of the faith of the Shia for a while until you have corrected your own beliefs and sorted out your differences with the Sunni brethren on these issues. The Shia are far beyond your grasp at this stage. Save yourself the grief.

Jazak Allah Khair.

[Muawiya]

Oh man, now here we go with the 'Wahabi' stuff again.

Why do you like to change the subject so much?

Why do you have to make a simple process seem so hard for?
Just answer my question, simple. Now do you accept everything I have posted from the content of Al-Kafi, or do you reject some of them?

[The Strategist]

[3] Chapter: The Imams have knowledge of the past and future; and nothing is hidden from them. ( AlKafi vol.1 p.260 )

My COMMENT: No doubt that these words are clear Kufr (Disbelief) and Shirk (Polytheism), because the knowledge of the unseen is only for Allah alone .. These words with no doubt countradict what Allah said in Surah Luqmaan "Verily, Allah With Him (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour, He sends down the rain, and knows that which is in the wombs. No person knows what he will earn tommorow, and no person knows in what land he will die. Verily, Allah is All-Knower, All-Aware (of things)" [Quran 31:34]

To comment on this one for example:

The knowledge of the unseen is only with Allah (swt) without a doubt.
But some of this knowledge was shared with the Prophet (s). If you do not believe this, how do you account for the things about the future that the Prophet (s) has stated which are reported in Bukhari and Muslim?

The Shia believe that the knowledge of the Imams as the inheritors of the knowledge of the Prophet (s) allows them to know with Allah's (swt) Leave, only what He Allowed them to know.

[Muawiya]

[3] Chapter: The Imams have knowledge of the past and future; and nothing is hidden from them. ( AlKafi vol.1 p.260 )

Ok, lets look at this again. 'Nothing' is hidden from them. Also, 'my comment' refers to quotes 1 and 2, which you seem to have skipped.

[1] Chapter: The Imams have knowledge of All that was given to the angels and the prophets. ( AlKafi vol.1 p.255 )

[2] Chapter: The Imams know when they will die, and they only die by their choice. ( AlKafi vol.1 p.258 )

[The Strategist]

Oh man, now here we go with the 'Wahabi' stuff again.

Why do you like to change the subject so much?

Why do you have to make a simple process seem so hard for?
Just answer my question, simple. Now do you accept everything I have posted from the content of Al-Kafi, or do you reject some of them?

I have answered one of your questions/comments. I haven't researched the rest as you seem to have. Al Kafi is not my obsession as it seems to be yours.
But as I said earlier, even if Al Kafi (or any other book, site, individual, group, media, newspaper etc) has reported anything that contradicts the Quran, the Shia belief is to reject such ahadith.
.
If you have understood the point that the Shia consider ONLY the QURAN as authentic, unlike others who have books of Sahih which they consider as gospel along with the Quran.

There ends the debate.

And yes, none of this is taqiyah. Because taqiyah is used to hide one's faith to save one's life, in normal circumstances. (Taqiyah cannot be used in every circumstance, especially when the deen of Allah (swt) is at the risk of being distorted). And I don't need to use that in this day and age, especially on the net. You might though, when they come looking for Mr. Bin Laden and his associates .

[Muawiya]

Al Kafi is not my obsession as it seems to be yours.
But as I said earlier, even if Al Kafi (or any other book, site, individual, group, media, newspaper etc) has reported anything that contradicts the Quran, the Shia belief is to reject such ahadith.

Ok, i accept your points brother. BUT, why do all these scholars accept Al-Kafi?

Al-Kafi should be to you as Bukhari is to me!

Te book that made all those Shia Scholars praise it and recommend it, actually even blamed their followers for not applying more effort of studying and research as AlKhomeini said in his book ( Al-Hukumah Al-Islamiyyah page 72 )

Umm, just to let u know, this debate has only begun

[The Strategist]

Ok, lets look at this again. 'Nothing' is hidden from them. Also, 'my comment' refers to quotes 1 and 2, which you seem to have skipped.

[1] Chapter: The Imams have knowledge of All that was given to the angels and the prophets. ( AlKafi vol.1 p.255 )

[2] Chapter: The Imams know when they will die, and they only die by their choice. ( AlKafi vol.1 p.258 )

The Twelve infallible Imams (as) are the inheritors of the knowledge of the Prophet (s). Yes, they knew what fate awaited them. That Imam Ali pointed out to Abdul Rehman ibne Muljim that he would be his assassin is a fact of history.

That Imam Hussain knew he would be martyred in Karbala was known to him and was foretold by the Prophet . Authentic reports from the Sunni source, Al Tabrani confirm this.

When Iman Ali was asked, that if he knew that Ibne Muljim was his future assassin, why did he not kill him to save his own life, the Imam replied:

"It is in my knowledge that he is my assassin, not that I am his."

[Muawiya]

That Imam Hussain knew he would be martyred in Karbala was known to him and was foretold by the Prophet . Authentic reports from the Sunni source, Al Tabrani confirm this.

This contradicts with the Quran:

"Verily, Allah With Him (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour, He sends down the rain, and knows that which is in the wombs. No person knows what he will earn tommorow, and no person knows in what land he will die. Verily, Allah is All-Knower, All-Aware (of things)" [Quran 31:34]

You said it yourself.

But as I said earlier, even if Al Kafi (or any other book, site, individual, group, media, newspaper etc) has reported anything that contradicts the Quran, the Shia belief is to reject such ahadith.

[The Strategist]

Ok, i accept your points brother. BUT, why do all these scholars accept Al-Kafi?

Al-Kafi should be to you as Bukhari is to me!

The scholars consider Al Kafi and Behar un Anwar and such books favourably, because they believe the sources which narrated them were not politically opposed to the Alh ul Bayt. Unlike Bukhari which has such a profusion of ahadith from Abu Hurrairah. (Will talk about that another time, inshallah, in another thread, maybe.)

But again, Al Kafi cannot ever be to any Shia, scholar or not, like Bukhari is to you, because of the fundamental difference between the Shia and the Sunni about the transmission and acceptance of ahadith :

With the Shia, the onus is on the listener to confirm the validity of the hadith by comparing it with the Quran before accepting it as a 'Sahih', individually. While with the Sunni, this is not the case, as evidenced by the very existance of the 'Sahih Sitta', which rivals (almost, if not for a fact) the Quran itself .

Umm, just to let u know, this debate has only begun

Alright, bring it on.

[Cupcake]

If these Kuffra claims that their Imams have the knowledge of ghayb/unseen than why Ali (ra) didn't see his killing coming? Wasn't he murdered? Why none of the Shia Imam during that era saw this coming?

[The Strategist]

This contradicts with the Quran:

"Verily, Allah With Him (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour, He sends down the rain, and knows that which is in the wombs. No person knows what he will earn tommorow, and no person knows in what land he will die. Verily, Allah is All-Knower, All-Aware (of things)" [Quran 31:34]

You said it yourself.

Already answered:

http://ummah.com/forum/showpost.php?...6&postcount=11

I don't know if you are asking this in honesty or in mischief. You are trying to interpret the Quran literally, without studying the issue with reference to the context and without comparing the other verses on the issue.

Anyway, answer my question then:

How did the Prophet (s) know the future that he foretold as reported in Bukhari? If as you say, according to the abovementioned verse, ONLY ALLAH (swt) Knows, how and why did the Prophet (s) even care to say anything about the future?

[The Strategist]

If these Kuffra claims that their Imams have the knowledge of ghayb/unseen than why Ali (ra) didn't see his killing coming? Wasn't he murdered? Why none of the Shia Imam during that era saw this coming?

Cupcake.

If your capacity to read and understand what transpires in this thread is that limited that you can make that observation, with fatwas of 'kuffara', do us and yourself a favour.

Please care to scroll back and read.

Jazak Allah Khair, inshallah.

[mohabdul]

Assalaamu alaykum,



The Strateigist said:

The Shia believe that the knowledge of the Imams as the inheritors of the knowledge of the Prophet (s) allows them to know with Allah's (swt) Leave, only what He Allowed them to know.


Sorry to budge in but I could not help it. Interesting belief, the Shias. The Strategist, you said that the Imams have knowledge of the unseen while at the same time you say "we believe ONLY in the Qur'an" and anything that contradicts the Qur'an is not accepted. Now the Qur'an says the following:



6:50 Say (O Muhammad, to the disbelievers): I say not unto you (that) I possess the treasures of Allah, nor that I have knowledge of the unseen; and I say not unto you: Lo! I am an angel. I follow only that which is inspired in me. Say: Are the blind man and the seer equal? Will ye not then take thought?



6:59 With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read).

7:188 Say: "I have no power over any good or harm to myself except as Allah willeth. If I had knowledge of the unseen, I should have multiplied all good, and no evil should have touched me: I am but a warner, and a bringer of glad tidings to those who have faith."


10:20 They say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "The unseen is only for Allah (to know), then wait ye: I too will wait with you."


These are only some to the ayahs that Allah (swt) makes it very clear that no one has the knowledge of the unseen except Him. So, let's put all Hadiths aside, how do you back your belief in regarding that the Imams possess knowledge of the unseen?

Sorry, if I am misunderstanding what you quoted above, maybe you can elaborate on :

.... Imams as the inheritors of the knowledge of the Prophet (s) allows them to know with Allah's (swt) Leave, only what He Allowed them to know.

Do you mean they receive revelations like the prophets and that they are in contact with the angles?

[The Strategist]

Assalaamu alaykum,



The Strateigist said:

The Shia believe that the knowledge of the Imams as the inheritors of the knowledge of the Prophet (s) allows them to know with Allah's (swt) Leave, only what He Allowed them to know.


Sorry to budge in but I could not help it. Interesting belief, the Shias. The Strategist, you said that the Imams have knowledge of the unseen while at the same time you say "we believe ONLY in the Qur'an" and anything that contradicts the Qur'an is not accepted. Now the Qur'an says the following:



6:50 Say (O Muhammad, to the disbelievers): I say not unto you (that) I possess the treasures of Allah, nor that I have knowledge of the unseen; and I say not unto you: Lo! I am an angel. I follow only that which is inspired in me. Say: Are the blind man and the seer equal? Will ye not then take thought?



6:59 With Him are the keys of the unseen, the treasures that none knoweth but He. He knoweth whatever there is on the earth and in the sea. Not a leaf doth fall but with His knowledge: there is not a grain in the darkness (or depths) of the earth, nor anything fresh or dry (green or withered), but is (inscribed) in a record clear (to those who can read).

7:188 Say: "I have no power over any good or harm to myself except as Allah willeth. If I had knowledge of the unseen, I should have multiplied all good, and no evil should have touched me: I am but a warner, and a bringer of glad tidings to those who have faith."


10:20 They say: "Why is not a sign sent down to him from his Lord?" Say: "The unseen is only for Allah (to know), then wait ye: I too will wait with you."


These are only some to the ayahs that Allah (swt) makes it very clear that no one has the knowledge of the unseen except Him. So, let's put all Hadiths aside, how do you back your belief in regarding that the Imams possess knowledge of the unseen?

Sorry, if I am misunderstanding what you quoted above, maybe you can elaborate on :

.... Imams as the inheritors of the knowledge of the Prophet (s) allows them to know with Allah's (swt) Leave, only what He Allowed them to know.

Do you mean they receive revelations like the prophets and that they are in contact with the angles?

Wa alaikum Salam,

Welcome to budge in. Answer to the belief about the knowledge of the unseen has been offered twice in this thread with a question. Scroll back if you will.

Revelation stopped with the Quran and the Prophet (s). The knowledge inherited by the Imams was passed to them by the Prophet (s) as far as I understand. Whether the Shia believe that the infallible Imams are in contact with the angels, I personally do not know. Worth investigating though.

[Kaaju Barfi]

Well the wahabis are a bigger fitnah these days than shias or any other odd crew. Before u label me a kaafir, i am a sunni muslim who follows the minhaj of Imam Malik and Ashari aqeedah. Don't play down the fitnah of wahabbiyah.

Oh man, now here we go with the 'Wahabi' stuff again.

Why do you like to change the subject so much?

Why do you have to make a simple process seem so hard for?
Just answer my question, simple. Now do you accept everything I have posted from the content of Al-Kafi, or do you reject some of them?

[Debater]

it is HARAM for the Shia to accept any hadith as SAHIH unless he or she has compared it with the Quran and investigated if it does not contradict the Holy Book.

If you are not an Ayatulla or an Infallible Imam then we could accept the above claim of yours only when you give us a sound proof from shias' reliable sources that it is really Haram for shias to do that.

If any hadith, no matter what the isnad, contradicts the Quran, the Shia are instructed to reject it, even if it is reported in Al Kafi or in Bukhari.

Would you provide us with a single hadith from Al-Kafi, which contradicts the Quran?

What about the Divine History?
As shias prefer History over Quran.

There are several narrations in Al Kafi, as there are in Bukhari, which the Shia reject.

For example, which one?
Please please please, just a single example..

As for your simple answer, there is none. The religion of Islam is not meant for simple minds.

The religion of Islam is only for philosophers?

It requires an intelligent mind to be able to differentiate between Osama bin Laden and the Ayatollah Khomeini. Between Abu Musab al Zarqawi and Ayatollah Hussain Ali Seestani.

The above means everyone in this world is intelligent.

It is the pursuit of simple answers that has made the Ummah lose the ability to find the difference between Imam Hussain bin Ali and 'Khalifah' Yazid bin Muawiyah.

Shias have this ability, that is why they made Imam Husain the partner with God and Yazid the partner with enemies of Ahlul Bayt.

[Debater]

To answer the question, no the Shia do NOT believe that Aisha 'cheated on the Prophet (s) '.

And what Mulla Baqar Majlisi and other shias have written in their books are lies.
And it proves on the basis of above reply of strategist that the predecessors of shias were liars.

Infact it was Ali who suggested that the Prophet (s) ask her maid and clarify the situation

Strange, even Imam 'Ali didn't have any knowledge of the matter?
If not then who made him an 'Aalim-al-Ghayb?
(according to shias' beliefs, Imam 'Ali had the knowledge of unseen)

when he was most distressed when she came back into Medina with Safwan.

The narrations of Ifk are from unreliable sources (e.g. Zuhri) and these narrations have lots of confusions and agitations, they can't be sahih.

Finally the Quran clarified the true situation for the Prophet (s) and he was relieved.

Quran clarified and Imam 'Ali played with the Prophet as he didn't inform the Prophet of the reality.

The contention the Shia have against Aisha is for the fact that she opposed Ali in the Battle of Siffeen

Not Siffin but Jamal.

- the first fratricidal war in Islam against a Caliph of the Ummah.

Correction:

First war against the Caliphate of Islam was waged by shias, who attacked the capital of Khilafah (Madinah), murdered the 3rd Khalifah, hijacked Hadhrat 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu, forced him to become the Khalifah and forced the people of Madinah to give their bai'ah (pledge of allegiance) to Hadhrat 'Ali.

Unfortunately, Hadhrat 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu accepted the proposal of these criminals / rebels of Islamic Caliphate and made an alliens with them, though they killed the Khalifah and they committed a crime to rebel against Islamic Caliphate.

Ummah (majority of Sahabah and all Muslims from all countries) didn't accept Hadhrat 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu as their Khalifah and they didn't take their oath of allegiance to Hadhrat 'Ali, except a small group of Sahabah who gave bai'ah to Hadhrat 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu using their Ijtihaad.
The big faction which supported Hadhrat 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu was consisted of shia munafiqeen from Kufah and Basrah and one of their chiefs were 'Abdullah ibn Saba (yahoodi) and Malik Ashtar (munafiq).

In those days of shia-fitnah the first voice raised by Ummul Momineen Saiyidah 'Aisha Siddiqah radhiyAllahu 'anha and to support them were great Sahabah Saiyidina Talha and Saiyidina Zubayr ridhwanullahe 'alayhim ajma'een.
Ummul Momineen and Saiyidina Talha and Saiyidina Zubayr radhiyAllahu 'anhum demanded Hadhrat 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu to hand over the culprits so that at least Qisas of the murder of Saiyidina 'Uthman ibn 'Affan radhiyAllahu 'anhu could be taken, but Hadhrat 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu made an excuse saying rebels are more powerful and he is unable to handle them and he wanted more time to take the Qisas from those who were in his party and his supporters.
Saiyidina Talha and Saiyidina Zubayr suggested Saiyidina 'Ali to make them governors of Kufah/Basrah so that they can weaken the rebels (whose roots were in Kufah and Basrah), they gave more suggestions which Saiyidina 'Ali rejected and so the sacred Army of Ummul Momineen radhiyAllahu 'anha attacked these munafiqeen of Kufah and Basrah and destroyed their base camps on which Hadhrat 'Ali radhiyAllahu 'anhu attacked them in the battle of Jamal.
(Please note that all above account has been conceived through Tareekh of Tabari, who is the famous shia historian and sunnis also accept him as a sunni historian by mistake.)

Aisha's conduct against the Bani Hashim when they wanted to bury Imam Hasan next to the Prophet (s) is another issue,

Why didn't they want to bury Imam 'Ali next to the Prophet?

After Saiyidina 'Uthman no one was buried next to the Prophet sallAllahu 'alayhe wasallam, even Ummul Momineen radhiyAllahu 'anha was buried in Jannatul Baqi'. These are slanders on Ummul Momineen which have been attributed to them by shia-kazibeen (liars).

when Ibn Abbas had said to her:

"Umm ul Momineen, you have come out against us riding on a camel first and now on a mule. Will you next ride an elephant*?"

* Hinting to the elephants of Abraha.

The above is certainly a tabarra from infidels and this lies is attributed to Saiyidina Ibn 'Abbas radhiyAllahu 'anhu by shia munafiqeen whose 90% of the religion is taqiyyah (lying and deceiving) according to Imam Ja'far Sadiq.

The Bani Hashim were forced to bury Imam Hasan in the public graveyard* rather than next to the Prophet (s) because Aisha refused permission saying it was 'her house and she had the right' to refuse permission.

Idiot shias.
The reality is that shias hate Hadhrat Hasan radhiyAllahu 'anhu so much because he entrusted Khilafat (caliphate) to the enemy of Shias, Saiyidina Ameer Ma'aviyah radhiyAllahu 'anhu and because of this crime of Hadhrat Hasan, shias poisoned him and they didn't stop at this, they deprived Hadhrat Hasan's progeny from Imamat and all their Imams after Hadhrat Husain are from the children of Hadhrat Husain.

The above quote is a satanic-lie from shias and a slander upon Ummul Momineen, though they themselve were not buried in their own house.

May Allah destroy these shia-munafiqeen and burn them in the hell fire forever, Aameen.

That 'she cheated on the Prophet (s) is a lie propagated by the malicious propaganda aimed at discrediting the Shia.

These are your own predecessors who descreited shias:

Mullah Baqir Majlisi, in his book, Hayatul Quloob - one of the most authoritative books of the Shiah religion - repeatedly described Hadhrat Aa'ishah and Hadhrat Hafsah (Radiallahu Anhuma) as munafiqs (hypocrites).
Hazrat Anas Bin Malik, Abu Huraira, Amr bin Aas, Ameer Ma’avia and Aa'ishah were worst people of all times. (Makalmaat-e-husainia, page #59).

In this book, Baqir also alleges:

"Aa'ishah and Hafsah martyred Rasulullaah by giving him poison.(Vol. 2, Hayat-ul-quloob, page #870, Baqar Majlisi)

(Maqbool Dehlavi, a Shiite translator of the Qur'ân His translation of Surah Ale Imraan: 134), quotes Imam Baqir as saying: 'Two women poisoned the Prophet (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) before his death. These are the same two women (Aa'ishah and Hafsah). May Allaah curse them and their fathers (Abu Bakr and Omar respectively)

Accusing Sheikhain and their daughters of conspiracy to murder Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam), the Shi'i, Baqir writes in Hayatul Quloob on page 745 of Vol. 2:

"Thus these two male munafiqs (referring to Abu Bakr and Umar) and those two female munafiqs (referring to Aa'ishah and Hafsah) agreed to martyr Rasulullah by administering poison to him. "

Mutahhiri, a leading cleric of the Shiah religion, says:

"Now that we see Ali, and Ammaar, Uways al-Qarani and others face to face with Aa'ishah and az-Zubayr and Talhah, we do not feel any hesitation, for we see the second group as people with the look of criminals, that is, the effects of evil and treachery are evident on their faces: and when we look at their faces and their treacherous characters we guess that they are people of the Fire." (TEHRAN TIMES, 25th August, 1982)

From the above vile remarks made by one of Khomeini's leading Shi'i theologians, it will be evident that the Shiah religion describes Hadhrat Aa'ishah Siddiqah (Radiallahu Anha) the beloved wife of Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) as a criminal, evil, treacherous and among the people of Jahannum--Naauthubillaah! But, Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) warned:

"Do not hurt me regarding Aa'ishah." (Bukhari-Muslim)

"The superiority of Aa'ishah over women is like the superiority of thareed (a kind of food) over all food." (Muslim)

"0 Aa'ishah! Jibraeel recites Salaam upon you." (Muslim)

In the Shiah religion, Hadhrat Zubair (Radiallahu Anhu) is described as a criminal, evil, treacherous and among the people of Jahannum-Nauthubillah! But, Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) said about Zubair: "Every Nabi had a hawaari (helper) and my hawaari is Zubair."

"Zubair will be in Jannat." (Tirmizi)

Hadhrat Zubair and Hadhrat Talhah whom the Shiahs claim are among the "people of the Fire", are in fact members of the Ashrah Mubashsharah who are the ten Sahaabah unto whom Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) delivered the glad tidings of Jannat. These Sahabah already were informed by Nabi-e- Kareem (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) that their place in Jannat has already been
secured, but Khomeini and his Shiahs believe that these noble men are among the people of the Fire.

The Shiahs believe that Hadhrat Talhah (Radiallahu Anhu) is evil, treacherous, a criminal and among the people of the Fire, but Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam) said:

• "Talhah and Zubair will be my two neighbors in Jannat."
  

(Tirmizi)

The Qur'an Shareef speaks glowingly regarding the Sahabah. In one place, the Qur'an praises the Sahabah in the following terms:


But, Shiaism preaches that all these Muhajireen and Ansar among the Sahabah, in fact all the Sahabah with the exception of three, reneged from Islam, i.e. they became murtads and kafirs after the demise of Rasulullah (sallallahu alayhi wasallam). Thus, the "Asah-hul Kutub" The Most Authentic "of Books" of the Shiah religion, Al-Jamiul Kafi, states in its chapter, Kitabur Raudhah on page 115:

"After (the demise of) Nabi-(sallallahu alayhi wasallam) - all the people (i.e. the Sahabah) became murtads, excepting three. - Miqdad Bin Aswad, Abu Dhar Ghifari and Salman Farsi, the Rahmat and Barkat of Allah be on them."



Mullah Baqir Majlisi writes:

'When Imam Mahdi arrives, Aa'ishah will be resurrected so that she may be given a prescribed punishment and that Fatima be vindicated.' (Haqqul Yaqeen: 347)

The same author writes about Aa'ishah that "She was a traitor." (Tadhkiratul Aimmah: 66)



Again, Mullah Baqir Majilisi comments about Ayesha (R.A.) and Hafsa (R.A.) that: "They were both hypocrites." (Hayatul Quloob: 2:745)

Imam Khomeini writes about the prestige and worth of the oft-quoted Mullah Baqir:

'Keep on reading the Persian books written by Majlisi so that you do not fall into any other such stupidity.' (Kashful Asrar: 121)

Source: http://allaahuakbar.net/shiites/shia...s_of_ummah.htm

According to his will, that if he was prevented from being buried beside his grandfather the Prophet (s) he should be buried in Jannat ul Baqi, to avoid conflict.

And where was Imam 'Ali buried?
Have you ever asked from Shaytaan?

[Debater]

The fact that the Shia consider the Imams as being the inheritors of the Ilm of the Prophet (s) is also no secret.

What is the use of this Ilm which was transferred to your Imams?
Your imams just wasted all the knowledge.
Imam Mahdi has been hiding in a hole for centuries (about 1300 years), as if he is teaching spiders and making them his true shias.

Yes, the Shia do not look favourably on the three 'Caliphs' who preceeded Ali to the position because the Shia believe that it was the exclusive domain of Ali and the Imams of the Alh ul Bayt to be the Imams of the Ummah and the Khalifah of the Prophet, as decreed by the Prophet (s) himself

As propagated by fabricated narrations from pious munafiqeen of Kufah.

- a fact much hidden by the Bani Ommayah and Bani Abbas who hijacked the Caliphate for their own material gain.

The material gain which Banu Umaiyah obtained was the spread of Islam. As it was the Khilafat of Banu Umaiyah during which Islam spread far and wide and Jihad started again which was stopped after the murder of Saiyidina 'Uthman radhiyAllahu 'anhu by shia munafiqeen.
This is what burns the hearts of shias as they can't see the prosperity and spread of Islam.

And now the House of Saud, the arch enemies of the Ahl ul Bayt in today's world, uses paid agents to mislead the Ummah by false propaganda against the Shia to distort the beliefs of the Shia for a gullible Ummah.

Is exposing Shaytaan called a propaganda?

That the Shia believe that ANYONE- including Mauwiyah bin Sufiyan and Yazid bin Muawiyah - who took the office other than the Twelve Imams, were usurpers of the office of the Caliphate of the Holy Prophet (s) is also no secret.

The one thing which is secret is that Shias reject the accuracy and authenticity of Holy Quran.

So what on Earth are you trying to establish with this fitnah?

Explanation

By fitnah, strategist means shi'ism.

[Debater]

The Shia and the Sunni believe in the Tawassul of the Prophet (s) to seek nearness to Allah (swt). The Wahabi do not.

The Shia and the Sunni offer salams and salutations to the Prophet (s) when visiting his grave in Medina, for which we believe is a spiritual reward. The Wahabi consider it as Shirk and a Biddah.

So, leave the understanding of the faith of the Shia for a while until you have corrected your own beliefs and sorted out your differences with the Sunni brethren on these issues. The Shia are far beyond your grasp at this stage. Save yourself the grief.

Zaydi shias don't believe in 12 Imams.
Isma'ilis don't believe in 12 Imams.

So how can you prove that twelvers are on the right path?
May be Zaydis are better than the twelvers?

Would you correct your beliefs when your Ayatulla Mahdi appear?

As for Barelvis (a Sunni Faction), the Imams whom they follow (e.g. Hadhrat Shaykh 'Abdul Qadir Jeelani, Hadhrat Shah Waliullah, 'Aala Hadhrat Ahmad Ridha Khan Barelvi rahimahumullah) have issued religious verdicts that shias are Kafir.

Still you don't feel any shame when considering them closer to you people?

[Debater]

The knowledge of the unseen is only with Allah (swt) without a doubt.
But some of this knowledge was shared with the Prophet (s). If you do not believe this, how do you account for the things about the future that the Prophet (s) has stated which are reported in Bukhari and Muslim?

The Shia believe that the knowledge of the Imams as the inheritors of the knowledge of the Prophet (s) allows them to know with Allah's (swt) Leave, only what He Allowed them to know.

WAllahi, shi'ism makes them Fools.

By this formula of shias (strategist) every Muslim has the knowledge of unseen.
Allah shared his knowledge with the Prophet, the Prophet shared his knowledge with Muslims.

[Debater]

it is HARAM for the Shia to accept any hadith as SAHIH unless he or she has compared it with the Quran and investigated if it does not contradict the Holy Book.

If any hadith, no matter what the isnad, contradicts the Quran, the Shia are instructed to reject it, even if it is reported in Al Kafi or in Bukhari. There are several narrations in Al Kafi, as there are in Bukhari, which the Shia reject.

Ok, strategist, after the above statement of yours, you have to explain these questions of brother Muawiya.

Taken from brother Muawiya's Post

Would you reject these FILTHY narrations of Al-Kafi as they contradict the Quran. And if you think they don't then explain how:

[1] Chapter: The Imams have knowledge of All that was given to the angels and the prophets. ( AlKafi vol.1 p.255 )

[2] Chapter: The Imams know when they will die, and they only die by their choice. ( AlKafi vol.1 p.258 )

[3] Chapter: The Imams have knowledge of the past and future; and nothing is hidden from them. ( AlKafi vol.1 p.260 )

My COMMENT: No doubt that these words are clear Kufr (Disbelief) and Shirk (Polytheism), because the knowledge of the unseen is only for Allah alone .. These words with no doubt countradict what Allah said in Surah Luqmaan "Verily, Allah With Him (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour, He sends down the rain, and knows that which is in the wombs. No person knows what he will earn tommorow, and no person knows in what land he will die. Verily, Allah is All-Knower, All-Aware (of things)" [Quran 31:34]

[4] "Obedience to `Ali is true humility and disobedience to him is disbelief in Allah" ( AlKafi vol.10 p.54 )

[5] "Whoever sets up another Imam besides `Ali and delays `Ali's caliphate is a polytheist" ( AlKafi vol.10 p.55 )

My COMMENT: These words declare all AhlSunnah as kufaar (Disbelievers) and Mushrikeen (Polytheists), because we -AhlSunnah- do not believe in the Shia Imamate of `Ali ( which is believing that `Ali is Infallible,..etc ) also We -AhlSunnah- believe that Abubakr (r) is the first caliphate, Omar (r) the second and Othman (r) the third, thus, We delay `Ali's caliphate to be the 4th after Abubakr,Omar and Othman, thus, Shia declare in their most reliable book that AhlSunnah are Kufaar and Mushrikeen !!!

[6] The false verse "And We made `Ali your in-law" has been added to Surah Al-InShirah . ( AlKafi p.289 )

[7] Alkileeni reported that Jabir asked AbuJa`far p.b.u.h : "Why `Ali ibn Aby Talib was named Amir-ul-Mumineen?" AbuJa`far replied : "Allah named him so, and He revealed in His Book " And (remember) when your Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed and made them testify as to themselves (saying): Am I not your Lord, Muhammad my messenger and `Ali Amir-ul-Mumineen ?..." ( AlKafi vol.1 p.412 )

MY COMMENT: We all know that "Muhammad my messenger and `Ali Amir-ul-Mumineen" is not part of the Quranic verse [Quran 7:172], but as you just read, AlKileeni narrated in his book AlKafi that the Infallible Imam -according to Shia- ( AbuJa`far ) said that the verse [Quran 7:172] was revealed by Allah with "Muhammad my messenger and `Ali Amir-ul-Mumineen", This is a serious claim by Shia that the Quran was changed and corrupted !!! This is a serious "Tahreef" of the Holy Quran...

Ok, lets get the opinions of the Shia on what I have posted so far.....Ok, you have mentioned that you ppl dont accept the hadith that contradict with the Quran, what about all these scholars that have approved of this book ? Why didnt they say that it was unacceptable? Surely they are more knowledgable than you and I?

[Debater]

I have answered one of your questions/comments. I haven't researched the rest as you seem to have. Al Kafi is not my obsession as it seems to be yours.
But as I said earlier, even if Al Kafi (or any other book, site, individual, group, media, newspaper etc) has reported anything that contradicts the Quran, the Shia belief is to reject such ahadith.

Fine.
Now tell us which narrations from Al-Kafi do you reject out of those posted by brother Muawiya?

Or do you accept all of them to be Sahih?

If you have understood the point that the Shia consider ONLY the QURAN as authentic, unlike others who have books of Sahih which they consider as gospel along with the Quran.

But according to my information, Quran is not Sahih in the eyes of Shias, the only thing which is Sahih is what is not Quran (i.e shias' hadiths and shias-designed-History).

There ends the debate.

End of Al-Kafi?

And yes, none of this is taqiyah.

It's kitmaan?

Because taqiyah is used to hide one's faith to save one's life, in normal circumstances.

Correction

Taqiyyah is used to fool sunnis by deceiving them and making them believe that shias have the same beliefs as theirs.

(Taqiyah cannot be used in every circumstance, especially when the deen of Allah (swt) is at the risk of being distorted).

Liar
Taqiyyah is Wajib in shi'ism and I have personally witnessed when a shia colleague of mine said that she wouldn't tell the truth to the officer, after all Taqiyyah is Wajib.

And I don't need to use that in this day and age, especially on the net. You might though, when they come looking for Mr. Bin Laden and his associates.

If so then Imam Ja'far lied to his shias when he said that Taqiyyah is 9/10 of the religion and who doesn't do taqiyyah is not from us (shias).

[Debater]

it is HARAM for the Shia to accept any hadith as SAHIH unless he or she has compared it with the Quran and investigated if it does not contradict the Holy Book.

If any hadith, no matter what the isnad, contradicts the Quran, the Shia are instructed to reject it, even if it is reported in Al Kafi or in Bukhari. There are several narrations in Al Kafi, as there are in Bukhari, which the Shia reject.

The Twelve infallible Imams (as) are the inheritors of the knowledge of the Prophet (s). Yes, they knew what fate awaited them. That Imam Ali pointed out to Abdul Rehman ibne Muljim that he would be his assassin is a fact of history.

That Imam Hussain knew he would be martyred in Karbala was known to him and was foretold by the Prophet . Authentic reports from the Sunni source, Al Tabrani confirm this.

When Iman Ali was asked, that if he knew that Ibne Muljim was his future assassin, why did he not kill him to save his own life, the Imam replied:

"It is in my knowledge that he is my assassin, not that I am his."

Dear brothers and sisters, you yourself can see a great contradiction in the statements of shias, at one place strategist is claiming that shias accept only those narrations which don't have any contradiction with Quran and then he says that history says this and that.

Do shias compare their history (written by shia historians, e.g Tabari, Ibn Hishaam, Mas'udi etc.) i.e. reports in the history with Quran?

Which verse of Quran claims that the 12 Imams are the Inheritors of knoledge of Prophet?

[Debater]

The scholars consider Al Kafi and Behar un Anwar and such books favourably, because they believe the sources which narrated them were not politically opposed to the Alh ul Bayt.

And what does this mean?
That all narrations in Al-Kafi are Sahih?

Unlike Bukhari which has such a profusion of ahadith from Abu Hurrairah. (Will talk about that another time, inshallah, in another thread, maybe.)

What about Al-Kafi and other 3 Books which have a profusion of narrations from Jafar Sadiq?
Were other Imams so shy?

But again, Al Kafi cannot ever be to any Shia, scholar or not, like Bukhari is to you,

And what Al-Kafi is not to any shia?

And what Bukhari is to us?

because of the fundamental difference between the Shia and the Sunni about the transmission and acceptance of ahadith

Your art of hadith is a joke.
According to shias' standard there exists no sahih hadith.
Your religion is just a joke, house of confusions and agitations.

With the Shia, the onus is on the listener to confirm the validity of the hadith by comparing it with the Quran before accepting it as a 'Sahih', individually.

In fact every shia is an Ayatulla, and every Ayatulla is a joker.

While with the Sunni, this is not the case, as evidenced by the very existance of the 'Sahih Sitta', which rivals (almost, if not for a fact) the Quran itself .

Correction

It's Sihah Sittah, not the Sahih Sitta.

What about Al-Kafi?

Why is it not La-Kafi?

[Debater]

To Muawiya: You are trying to interpret the Quran literally, without studying the issue with reference to the context and without comparing the other verses on the issue.

Give me the evidence that Allah descent Quran to be interpretted and prove with any verse of Quran that the whole Quran has hidden meanings and show us where Allah has said in Quran that no one can understand Quran unless a shia munafiq or his imam interprets its words and verses in order to twist the meaning.

Anyway, answer my question then:

How did the Prophet (s) know the future that he foretold as reported in Bukhari? If as you say, according to the abovementioned verse, ONLY ALLAH (swt) Knows, how and why did the Prophet (s) even care to say anything about the future?

The Prophet informed us of Jannah, Jahannam and the day of resurrection, so this information about future is also the part of knowledge of unseen?

All shias are fools.

[Debater]

Revelation stopped with the Quran and the Prophet (s). The knowledge inherited by the Imams was passed to them by the Prophet (s) as far as I understand. Whether the Shia believe that the infallible Imams are in contact with the angels, I personally do not know. Worth investigating though.

The Prophet passed his knowledge to these 12 Imams and the Prophet didn't pass this knowledge to the Ummah?
Isn't it a slander upon Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhe wasallam.

This is what is the belief of these kuffaar that Rasoolullah sallAllahu 'alayhe wasallam didn't perform his duty and he made only 3 Muslims (because all Sahabah turned to Kafir after his demise, ma'azAllah).

The Prophet passed his knowledge to the 12 Imams and this knowledge ultimately was passed to the last Imam of shias, and he disappeared 1300 years ago.
So this Prophetic knowledge couldn't benefit Ummah.
And Prophetic knowledge in fact was a secret code which was to be known to only these 12 Imams to play with shia-fools in the hands of Imam Shaytaan (a.s).

[Debater]

Well the wahabis are a bigger fitnah these days than shias or any other odd crew. Before u label me a kaafir, i am a sunni muslim who follows the minhaj of Imam Malik and Ashari aqeedah. Don't play down the fitnah of wahabbiyah.

Barfi, the topic of this thread is Al-Kafi but you are trying to divert the issue towards your rivals.
Don't forget that these people whom you are calling Wahabis, they also call Barelvis, the people of bid'ah (innovation) and Shirk (polytheism).

If you can't respire without calling a faction of Ahlus Sunnah to cause Fitnah, then start a new thread and face the charges which your rivals would put on you.

Since you claim that you follow the minhaaj of Imam Malik, I have got something to show you from Imam Malik rahimahullah:

According to the last verse of Surah-Al-Fath

مُّحَمَّدٌ رَّسُولُ اللَّهِ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ أَشِدَّاء عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ رُحَمَاء بَيْنَهُمْ تَرَاهُمْ رُكَّعًا سُجَّدًا يَبْتَغُونَ فَضْلًا مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرِضْوَانًا سِيمَاهُمْ فِي وُجُوهِهِم مِّنْ أَثَرِ السُّجُودِ ذَلِكَ مَثَلُهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَمَثَلُهُمْ فِي الْإِنجِيلِ كَزَرْعٍ أَخْرَجَ شَطْأَهُ فَآزَرَهُ فَاسْتَغْلَظَ فَاسْتَوَى عَلَى سُوقِهِ يُعْجِبُ الزُّرَّاعَ لِيَغِيظَ بِهِمُ الْكُفَّارَ وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنْهُم مَّغْفِرَةً وَأَجْرًا عَظِيمًا

Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves. Thou (O Muhammad) seest them bowing and falling prostrate (in worship), seeking bounty from Allah and (His) acceptance. The mark of them is on their foreheads from the traces of prostration. Such is their likeness in the Torah and their likeness in the Gospel - like as sown corn that sendeth forth its shoot and strengtheneth it and riseth firm upon its stalk, delighting the sowers - that He may enrage the disbelievers with (the sight of) them. Allah hath promised, unto such of them as believe and do good works, forgiveness and immense reward.

Imam Malik rahimahullah declared this verse as the Quranic Evidence for the infidelity (Kufr) of shias (Rafidha) and presented this principle that whosoever feels jealousy with Sahabah is a Kafir and in this connection a great number of 'Ulama agree with Imam Malik.

(Al-Ae'tesaam, volume 2, page 1261 with reference to 'Baiyinaat', pages 122, 125, 154, Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Tafsir Rooh-al-Ma'ani)

[Muawiya]

Well the wahabis are a bigger fitnah these days than shias or any other odd crew. Before u label me a kaafir, i am a sunni muslim who follows the minhaj of Imam Malik and Ashari aqeedah. Don't play down the fitnah of wahabbiyah.

Kaaju Narfi - What did you mean by this?

Anyway, Jazzakallah brother Debater for once again another good display of posts. Now lets move on to my final quotes from the Shia's favourite and most reliable book.

[5] "Whoever sets up another Imam besides `Ali and delays `Ali's caliphate is a polytheist" ( AlKafi vol.10 p.55 )

My COMMENT: These words declare all AhlSunnah as kufaar (Disbelievers) and Mushrikeen (Polytheists), because we -AhlSunnah- do not believe in the Shia Imamate of `Ali ( which is believing that `Ali is Infallible,..etc ) also We -AhlSunnah- believe that Abubakr (r) is the first caliphate, Omar (r) the second and Othman (r) the third, thus, We delay `Ali's caliphate to be the 4th after Abubakr,Omar and Othman, thus, Shia declare in their most reliable book that AhlSunnah are Kufaar and Mushrikeen !!!

[6] The false verse "And We made `Ali your in-law" has been added to Surah Al-InShirah . ( AlKafi p.289 )

[7] Alkileeni reported that Jabir asked AbuJa`far p.b.u.h : "Why `Ali ibn Aby Talib was named Amir-ul-Mumineen?" AbuJa`far replied : "Allah named him so, and He revealed in His Book " And (remember) when your Lord brought forth from the Children of Adam, from their loins, their seed and made them testify as to themselves (saying): Am I not your Lord, Muhammad my messenger and `Ali Amir-ul-Mumineen ?..." ( AlKafi vol.1 p.412 )

MY COMMENT: We all know that "Muhammad my messenger and `Ali Amir-ul-Mumineen" is not part of the Quranic verse [Quran 7:172], but as you just read, AlKileeni narrated in his book AlKafi that the Infallible Imam -according to Shia- ( AbuJa`far ) said that the verse [Quran 7:172] was revealed by Allah with "Muhammad my messenger and `Ali Amir-ul-Mumineen", This is a serious claim by Shia that the Quran was changed and corrupted !!! This is a serious "Tahreef" of the Holy Quran...

Wassalaamu Alaykum - Be sure to answer my question in the new thread. I am enjoying this debate with you Strategist.

[Muawiya]

Quote:
And yes, none of this is taqiyah.


It's kitmaan?

Quote:
Because taqiyah is used to hide one's faith to save one's life, in normal circumstances.


Correction

Taqiyyah is used to fool sunnis by deceiving them and making them believe that shias have the same beliefs as theirs.



Quote:
(Taqiyah cannot be used in every circumstance, especially when the deen of Allah (swt) is at the risk of being distorted).


Liar
Taqiyyah is Wajib in shi'ism and I have personally witnessed when a shia colleague of mine said that she wouldn't tell the truth to the officer, after all Taqiyyah is Wajib.







If so then Imam Ja'far lied to his shias when he said that Taqiyyah is 9/10 of the religion and who doesn't do taqiyyah is not from us (shias).

The book, Al-Kafi, agrees with you on this one Debater. Observe the following points:

1.) They believe in Taqiyya.
2.) This means 'Holy Deception'.
3.) To believe in something but express/ say something else.
4.) They say 9-10th of Deen is Taqiyya.
5.) They say, he who has no Taqiyya has no deen.
6.) There is a great reward in Lying.
7.) They say the great Imams Practised 'Taqiyya'.
8.) They say Alli (R.A), Hassan (R.A), Hussain(R.A) practiced 'Taqiyya'.
9.) They say Hussein (R.A) practiced 'Taqiyya'.

Source: Usool-il-kaafi

[The Strategist]

Give me the evidence that Allah descent Quran to be interpretted and prove with any verse of Quran that the whole Quran has hidden meanings and show us where Allah has said in Quran that no one can understand Quran unless a shia munafiq or his imam interprets its words and verses in order to twist the meaning.



The Prophet informed us of Jannah, Jahannam and the day of resurrection, so this information about future is also the part of knowledge of unseen?

All shias are fools.

Debater.

The more you open your mouth, the clearer it becomes who is a fool and how big a fool. To cut this debate short, for there is no point debating with a fool, whether it is you or me, let me ask you a question:

If I were to prove to you that the Quran has hidden meanings and it itself says so, and that the Prophet (s) has told us more about the future than just about Heaven and Hell and the Day of Judgement, will you take your words back and quit making more uninformed fitnah?

Or will you continue carrying on with a sealed heart inspite of the truth being made obvious to you?

[The Strategist]

Dear brothers and sisters, you yourself can see a great contradiction in the statements of shias, at one place strategist is claiming that shias accept only those narrations which don't have any contradiction with Quran and then he says that history says this and that.

Do shias compare their history (written by shia historians, e.g Tabari, Ibn Hishaam, Mas'udi etc.) i.e. reports in the history with Quran?

Which verse of Quran claims that the 12 Imams are the Inheritors of knoledge of Prophet?

Alhamdolillah. Your logic is becoming more flawed and twisted with every post.

What comparision is there with checking the validity of a hadith with the Quran on one hand and making a point with a reference to a widely reported historical fact on the other?

Confusing is it?

[The Strategist]

And what does this mean?
That all narrations in Al-Kafi are Sahih?

Not unless you have individually confirmed whether or not a narration contradicts the Quran.

What about Al-Kafi and other 3 Books which have a profusion of narrations from Jafar Sadiq? Were other Imams so shy?

For these reasons, among others:

1. Imam Jafar as Sadiq (as) lived the longest among the other Imams before he was martyred (except of course the Imam of the Age. May Allah Hasten his re appearance)

2. Imam Jafer as Sadiq (as) was least prosecuted by the governments of the time as the Bani Ommaya and Bani Abbas were fighting each other for the Caliphate, and was able to establish a school which was attended by thousands of students from the world over. Imam Abu Hanifa was one of them for two years and has said that those were his best years ever.

3. The students of the Imam (as), had a chance to compile his words and lectures in relative peace than were the followers of the other Imams (as) as the persecution of the Shia was always the prime objective of all such governments who saw them as a threat to their power.

4. The works of the followers of other Imams (as) were confiscated and destroyed and the scholars killed, by various regimes. Many had to bury their books and hide them from the agents of the tyrannical governments to convey the message and the religion of the Imams of the Ahl ul Bayt.

And what Al-Kafi is not to any shia?

And what Bukhari is to us?

Kafi is not as 'Sahih' as the Quran is to the Shia.
Bukhari is 'Sahih' even if it contradicts the Quran in several places.

Your art of hadith is a joke.
According to shias' standard there exists no sahih hadith.
Your religion is just a joke, house of confusions and agitations.

If Shia concept of accepting or rejecting ahadith on the basis of their agreement with the Quran is a joke, then Islam is obviously NOT your religion. With the Shia, sahih ahadith exist, but you cannot accept them as such unless you have verified their authenticity. Shia Twelver Islam, to any fair minded analyst is the most organised and non contradictory school of religious and political thought. That is why Shia Islam can bring about revolutions and confront America and Israel, while others continue in a state of relative impotence and slavery of the USA.

In fact every shia is an Ayatulla, and every Ayatulla is a joker.

Is that why the Islamic Revolution in Iran has withstood all conspiracies and wars against it and can threathen Israel and hold up against the US, while your Khalifah Mullah Omer and Bin Laden have run away and hid themselves in some cave.


A joke? Take a pick.

Correction

It's Sihah Sittah, not the Sahih Sitta.

What about Al-Kafi?

Why is it not La-Kafi?

Thank you for the correction.
Al Kafi will never compete with the Quran in its authenticity as your 'Sihah Sittah' apparently do.