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    An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Hi

    I was listening to some atheistic arguments against religion. I heard this one, about Millions of babies dying each year. I know this comes under the "Problem of Evil" and I have heard some refutations for the problem of evil. but, I have a different take on this particular argument.

    Millions of babies, under the age of 7 dying each year due to natural causes, they get a free pass into heaven, without ever facing the hardships of life.

    I wish I would have died before the age of 7, without having to endure any of this worldly life.

    How do you address this issue?

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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by panther123 View Post
    Hi

    I was listening to some atheistic arguments against religion. I heard this one, about Millions of babies dying each year. I know this comes under the "Problem of Evil" and I have heard some refutations for the problem of evil. but, I have a different take on this particular argument.

    Millions of babies, under the age of 7 dying each year due to natural causes, they get a free pass into heaven, without ever facing the hardships of life.

    I wish I would have died before the age of 7, without having to endure any of this worldly life.

    How do you address this issue?
    Correction, it is before puberty, not age 7.

  3. #3
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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    simply avoided by not begetting babies

    arnt yall afraid about overcrowding your planet ?

    imagine if that happened now, you cant colonize other planets yet
    "arm yourself with knowledge and laugh at the accusers"
    me - 2017

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    Senior Member Juwairiyyah's Avatar
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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by panther123 View Post
    Hi

    I was listening to some atheistic arguments against religion. I heard this one, about Millions of babies dying each year. I know this comes under the "Problem of Evil" and I have heard some refutations for the problem of evil. but, I have a different take on this particular argument.

    Millions of babies, under the age of 7 dying each year due to natural causes, they get a free pass into heaven, without ever facing the hardships of life.

    I wish I would have died before the age of 7, without having to endure any of this worldly life.

    How do you address this issue?
    Exactly, they are the extremely fortunate ones.

    All of these types of arguments come from the fact that atheists don't believe in the afterlife, hence they view the sufferings of people as "evil" since they don't believe there will be a compensation in the hereafter.

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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Juwairiyyah View Post
    Exactly, they are the extremely fortunate ones.

    All of these types of arguments come from the fact that atheists don't believe in the afterlife, hence they view the sufferings of people as "evil" since they don't believe there will be a compensation in the hereafter.
    And if these fortunate children are going to have an eternally happy afterlife as compensation anyway, why give them a miserable fore-life? And why not arrange it so that everyone dies young enough to go directly to heaven?

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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    You dont address the issue.

    All will given life;death; jannat or hell to who He wishes.

    You leave the dumb devils to argue and not waste time appeasing them.

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    striving to be sincere Abu Kamel's Avatar
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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    And if these fortunate children are going to have an eternally happy afterlife as compensation anyway, why give them a miserable fore-life? And why not arrange it so that everyone dies young enough to go directly to heaven?

    Just as youth go to Jannah, kufar and atheists go to Jahannam. It may be infants suffer in this life such that kufar misguide themselves with evil thoughts and questions about Allah, thereby confirming and fulfilling their destiny as eternal dwellers of Jahannam.
    Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
    " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Kamel View Post
    Just as youth go to Jannah, kufar and atheists go to Jahannam. It may be infants suffer in this life such that kufar misguide themselves with evil thoughts and questions about Allah, thereby confirming and fulfilling their destiny as eternal dwellers of Jahannam.
    I see, god tortures children so that people won't believe in a good god because god wants a reason to send them to hell and torture them for ever.

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    striving to be sincere Abu Kamel's Avatar
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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    I see, god tortures children so that people won't believe in a good god because god wants a reason to send them to hell and torture them for ever.
    First, be careful of what you say. You are becoming more emotional, rather than just being a cold skeptic.

    Allah does NOT torture children. If anyone tortures children, it's men and women who think they know what is right, but in fact do wrong and corrupt others.

    Discussions like this expose the irrationality of disbelievers such that when it suits them, they accuse Allah of doing "wrongs" like torture, but when it suits them, they claim they and themselves do "right". Arbitrary and self-serving criteria to elevate themselves and their illogic.

    It is absolving men of wrongdoing arbitrarily when in fact they are accountable, and then granting men accolades arbitrarily, when in fact they deserve no credit and Allah deserves all praises.

    Hypothetical ethereal discourse is fruitless when there are concrete realities that must be addressed.

    Take Yemen today. Sep 2017 ce, Ngo reports 700,000 cases of cholera in Yemen, most are infants and sickly.

    According to your illogic, Allah is torturing them with cholera.
    In reality, cholera is an epidemic spread as a result of war in Yemen. The war is between the Zaidi Shia who overthrew the Saudi backed regime and the Saudi regime and their allies. They have all contributed to devastating the infrastructure and functioning of Yemeni society. On top of that, prior to the war, Yemen was in a deplorable state of affairs with wide-scale khat addictions and redirection of normal human resources; limited arable lands being used for khat production, indicating a sick society.
    So, when the Zaidis moved, Yemen was one step away from regional disaster, famine, illnesses, much like China during and in the aftermath of the Opium Wars. (And there are more comparisons with imperial China: the British empire was directly involved in opium trade to cause China's opium epidemic, as well as facilitated the rebellion that caused the death of 20 million people. Similarly, the British empire was directly involved in mass production of khat in Africa and later Yemen while both were under British colonial power, resulting in expansion of khat in Yemen).

    So perhaps 100s of 1000s of children are suffering from cholera, and millions are malnourished, suffering from too little food, or insufficient food.

    Who in their right mind blames Allah for this and absolves Yemenis, especially Yemeni khat growers and users, Zaidi rebels, and Saudi tyrants who are destroying infrastructure, as well as Western powers selling bombs and planes for Saudis to use for years?

    Who is being irrational?
    Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
    " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Kamel View Post
    First, be careful of what you say. You are becoming more emotional, rather than just being a cold skeptic.

    Allah does NOT torture children. If anyone tortures children, it's men and women who think they know what is right, but in fact do wrong and corrupt others.

    Discussions like this expose the irrationality of disbelievers such that when it suits them, they accuse Allah of doing "wrongs" like torture, but when it suits them, they claim they and themselves do "right". Arbitrary and self-serving criteria to elevate themselves and their illogic.

    It is absolving men of wrongdoing arbitrarily when in fact they are accountable, and then granting men accolades arbitrarily, when in fact they deserve no credit and Allah deserves all praises.

    Hypothetical ethereal discourse is fruitless when there are concrete realities that must be addressed.

    Take Yemen today. Sep 2017 ce, Ngo reports 700,000 cases of cholera in Yemen, most are infants and sickly.

    According to your illogic, Allah is torturing them with cholera.
    In reality, cholera is an epidemic spread as a result of war in Yemen. The war is between the Zaidi Shia who overthrew the Saudi backed regime and the Saudi regime and their allies. They have all contributed to devastating the infrastructure and functioning of Yemeni society. On top of that, prior to the war, Yemen was in a deplorable state of affairs with wide-scale khat addictions and redirection of normal human resources; limited arable lands being used for khat production, indicating a sick society.
    So, when the Zaidis moved, Yemen was one step away from regional disaster, famine, illnesses, much like China during and in the aftermath of the Opium Wars. (And there are more comparisons with imperial China: the British empire was directly involved in opium trade to cause China's opium epidemic, as well as facilitated the rebellion that caused the death of 20 million people. Similarly, the British empire was directly involved in mass production of khat in Africa and later Yemen while both were under British colonial power, resulting in expansion of khat in Yemen).

    So perhaps 100s of 1000s of children are suffering from cholera, and millions are malnourished, suffering from too little food, or insufficient food.

    Who in their right mind blames Allah for this and absolves Yemenis, especially Yemeni khat growers and users, Zaidi rebels, and Saudi tyrants who are destroying infrastructure, as well as Western powers selling bombs and planes for Saudis to use for years?

    Who is being irrational?
    What would you describe the deliberate creation and infliction of children's diseases or painful and lethal parasites as, if you wouldn't call it torture?
    Cholera has existed for a long time and it is only in the last couple of hundred years that effective ways to prevent, alleviate or cure it have existed. They were the result of human endeavours. Certainly, it isn't to human credit that children are dying of cholera in Yemen now. Nor is it to god''s credit - if you believe in god - that children died of cholera for hundreds of thousands of years before that and are still dying of it..

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    Abu-Tawheed Saif-Uddin's Avatar
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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by panther123 View Post
    Hi

    I was listening to some atheistic arguments against religion. I heard this one, about Millions of babies dying each year. I know this comes under the "Problem of Evil" and I have heard some refutations for the problem of evil. but, I have a different take on this particular argument.

    Millions of babies, under the age of 7 dying each year due to natural causes, they get a free pass into heaven, without ever facing the hardships of life.

    I wish I would have died before the age of 7, without having to endure any of this worldly life.

    How do you address this issue?
    Entry into Jannah is by the mercy of Allah عز و جل

    They slave doesn't get to decide or tell his Master who enters Jannah and who doesn't. Atheist arguments are illogical.

    Secondly those are innocent children we are talking about, why an Atheist would have problems with innocent children entering Jannah, shows another problem in their mentality,

    Thirdly according to Atheists, its "tough luck" that the babies died, were killed or suffered.

    They will neither be recompensed nor the perpetrators punished.

    Atheists have a mental fit, when you tell them the third point.

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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    Entry into Jannah is by the mercy of Allah عز و جل

    They slave doesn't get to decide or tell his Master who enters Jannah and who doesn't. Atheist arguments are illogical.

    Secondly those are innocent children we are talking about, why an Atheist would have problems with innocent children entering Jannah, shows another problem in their mentality,
    Slavery is wrong in itself, whoever the slave-owner.
    The problem "with innocent children entering Jannah" is the supposed mercy shown. One assumption on the part of believers is that the "innocent children" in many cases are tortured by illness and then enter Jannah. Another is that their torture is somehow justified because they enter Jannah. A third is that entering Jannah will alleviate previous torture. A fourth is the arbitrary way that people are chosen at random to die young and enter Jannah or grow up and end up in hell. If god is so merciful and all-knowing, why aren't those who would commit sins the ones that die young and those who wouldn't the ones that die old?
    Thirdly according to Atheists, its "tough luck" that the babies died, were killed or suffered.

    They will neither be recompensed nor the perpetrators punished.

    Atheists have a mental fit, when you tell them the third point.

    Surely the "just tough luck" argument is the muslim argument? "It is all the will of allah." Including babies suffering and dying and the perpetrator - allah - is left unpunished.

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    striving to be sincere Abu Kamel's Avatar
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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    What would you describe the deliberate creation and infliction of children's diseases or painful and lethal parasites as, if you wouldn't call it torture?
    Cholera has existed for a long time and it is only in the last couple of hundred years that effective ways to prevent, alleviate or cure it have existed. They were the result of human endeavours. Certainly, it isn't to human credit that children are dying of cholera in Yemen now. Nor is it to god''s credit - if you believe in god - that children died of cholera for hundreds of thousands of years before that and are still dying of it..
    Hypocritical claims. Once again, you absolve adults who corrupt the earth with shirk, greed and war and who cause children to suffer from diseases like cholera which is directly tie to contaminated waters with human biowaste.

    Just "human endeavors"? Mufasaduun.
    The recent cholera outbreak in Haiti was tied to UN 'peacekeepers' arrogantly dumping their biowaste into drinking water sources.

    The despicable, arrogant lying rebellion against Allah illustrated on this thread shows what "kafir" truly means.
    Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
    " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

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    Abu-Tawheed Saif-Uddin's Avatar
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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Slavery is wrong in itself, whoever the slave-owner.
    The problem "with innocent children entering Jannah" is the supposed mercy shown. One assumption on the part of believers is that the "innocent children" in many cases are tortured by illness and then enter Jannah. Another is that their torture is somehow justified because they enter Jannah. A third is that entering Jannah will alleviate previous torture. A fourth is the arbitrary way that people are chosen at random to die young and enter Jannah or grow up and end up in hell. If god is so merciful and all-knowing, why aren't those who would commit sins the ones that die young and those who wouldn't the ones that die old?
    Surely the "just tough luck" argument is the muslim argument? "It is all the will of allah." Including babies suffering and dying and the perpetrator - allah - is left unpunished.
    Your a slave to your desires.

    We are slaves to Allah عز و جل the one who is most Just.

    The tough luck argument is a logical consequence of Atheists disbelief, which Atheists don't like unfortunately.

    As a Muslim, we don't believe in luck, nor on the screwed up mentality, that you only get your commuppance if you get caught, otherwise you got away with it.

    Such a mentality does not exist amongst Muslims because we believe nobody he's away scott free from committing Heinous crimes.

    Your dirty mentality isn't shared amongst the Muslimeen, we believe Allah عز و جل only wants good for us, we don't commit Evil and try and pass the buck shamelessly as you have done here

    It's no wonder the moral compass of the Kuffar is completely Haywire.
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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Kamel View Post
    First, be careful of what you say. You are becoming more emotional, rather than just being a cold skeptic.
    I didn't detect any emotionalism in Sceptic's comment. Sometimes I think it's easy for believers to forget that, from the perspective of an unbeliever, God is just a character in a story. We get no more emotional about God's alleged crimes than about the crimes committed by Sauron from Lord of the Rings.

    Who in their right mind blames Allah for this and absolves Yemenis, especially Yemeni khat growers and users, Zaidi rebels, and Saudi tyrants who are destroying infrastructure, as well as Western powers selling bombs and planes for Saudis to use for years?
    This isn't a dichotomy where blame can only rest on one person or group. Rather, blame can be shared. To say that God is to blame is not to deny that the Yemenis are also to blame. It could well be the case that they are all to blame.

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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    Your a slave to your desires.

    We are slaves to Allah عز و جل the one who is most Just.

    The tough luck argument is a logical consequence of Atheists disbelief, which Atheists don't like unfortunately.

    As a Muslim, we don't believe in luck, nor on the screwed up mentality, that you only get your commuppance if you get caught, otherwise you got away with it.

    Such a mentality does not exist amongst Muslims because we believe nobody he's away scott free from committing Heinous crimes.

    Your dirty mentality isn't shared amongst the Muslimeen, we believe Allah عز و جل only wants good for us, we don't commit Evil and try and pass the buck shamelessly as you have done here

    It's no wonder the moral compass of the Kuffar is completely Haywire.
    Morality isn't about getting "comeuppance" or not. Wrong is wrong, whether or not you get caught, and whether or not you are eventually punished (either here or in some mythical afterlife). It's sad to think that some people need the threat of punishment to keep them from doing wrong, or the promise of reward to motivate them to do right. Hopefully you are not like that. I mean, I hope that if you ever come to doubt the existence of God, you won't suddenly degenerate into selfishness and immorality.

    I don't think most people are like that. Most people will try to live good lives even if they reject the existence of God.

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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Kamel View Post
    Hypocritical claims. Once again, you absolve adults who corrupt the earth with shirk, greed and war and who cause children to suffer from diseases like cholera which is directly tie to contaminated waters with human biowaste.
    I didn't see Sceptic absolve anyone. Again, blame can be assigned to more than one party. To blame God is not to absolve human beings. It's just to blame God, period.

    The despicable, arrogant lying rebellion against Allah illustrated on this thread shows what "kafir" truly means.
    Whoa. Why are you getting so upset? Didn't you just scold Sceptic for being (so you thought) emotional?

    Personally, if a topic like this caused me to lash out like that, I'd stop participating in it. Just a suggestion.

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    Abu-Tawheed Saif-Uddin's Avatar
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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    Morality isn't about getting "comeuppance" or not. Wrong is wrong, whether or not you get caught, and whether or not you are eventually punished (either here or in some mythical afterlife). It's sad to think that some people need the threat of punishment to keep them from doing wrong, or the promise of reward to motivate them to do right. Hopefully you are not like that. I mean, I hope that if you ever come to doubt the existence of God, you won't suddenly degenerate into selfishness and immorality.

    I don't think most people are like that. Most people will try to live good lives even if they reject the existence of God.
    Morality is subjective according to an Atheist,

    They have no non-subjective criterion to define right and wrong, it's just a bundle of opinions,

    Also if Atheists don't believe in judgement day, then they have to accept that if they get done over and the culprit doesn't get caught, they got away there is no justice.

    Atheists present themselves as logical, but they don't like the logical consequences of their disbelief,
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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    Morality is subjective according to an Atheist,

    They have no non-subjective criterion to define right and wrong, it's just a bundle of opinions,
    This is a common criticism, and it's well-known to be flawed in three big ways: First, there are many plausible objective moral theories compatible with atheism; second, there are no plausible objective moral theories which depend on the existence of God; and third, there is no good evidence that objective morality exists anyway.

    Also if Atheists don't believe in judgement day, then they have to accept that if they get done over and the culprit doesn't get caught, they got away there is no justice.
    Justice only makes sense in a social setting. The most obvious reason to have a justice system is to enforce and/or encourage good behavior. It is not an end in itself, as if it would help to tack on some kind of final torment in an afterlife, for people who committed crimes in this life.

    In other words, the lack of a final punishment is actually a good thing, not bad.

    But if you don't like that idea, well, that's life. Reality isn't always peaches and roses.

    Atheists present themselves as logical, but they don't like the logical consequences of their disbelief,
    If you believe in God because you find His nonexistence distasteful or unlikable, that's called wishful thinking. I'm sure you know that.

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    Abu-Tawheed Saif-Uddin's Avatar
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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    This is a common criticism, and it's well-known to be flawed in three big ways: First, there are many plausible objective moral theories compatible with atheism; second, there are no plausible objective moral theories which depend on the existence of God; and third, there is no good evidence that objective morality exists anyway.



    Justice only makes sense in a social setting. The most obvious reason to have a justice system is to enforce and/or encourage good behavior. It is not an end in itself, as if it would help to tack on some kind of final torment in an afterlife, for people who committed crimes in this life.

    In other words, the lack of a final punishment is actually a good thing, not bad.

    But if you don't like that idea, well, that's life. Reality isn't always peaches and roses.



    If you believe in God because you find His nonexistence distasteful or unlikable, that's called wishful thinking. I'm sure you know that.
    I'm not talking about my belief,

    I'm talking about the fact that you guys won't accept the fact that if someone knifed & robbed you, and long arm of the law wasn't long enough to catch him,

    It's "tough luck"

    Assuming as you do, God doesn't exist and that there is no accountability unless you get caught.

    Atheists often have a mental breakdown and start attacking Islam or other Religions because they can't accept the logical consequences of their disbelief.
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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    I'm not talking about my belief,

    I'm talking about the fact that you guys won't accept the fact that if someone knifed & robbed you, and long arm of the law wasn't long enough to catch him,

    It's "tough luck"

    Assuming as you do, God doesn't exist and that there is no accountability unless you get caught.
    I wouldn't phrase it quite like that, but sure, I guess that's true enough. Some people do, in fact, get away with murder. Literally. And for the victim, I agree, it's just tough luck. Life stinks sometimes, and to insist otherwise is just wishful thinking.

    Why do you think atheists deny this? Do you think it poses some kind of problem for atheism?

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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    I wouldn't phrase it quite like that, but sure, I guess that's true enough. Some people do, in fact, get away with murder. Literally. And for the victim, I agree, it's just tough luck. Life stinks sometimes, and to insist otherwise is just wishful thinking.

    Why do you think atheists deny this? Do you think it poses some kind of problem for atheism?
    It's just tough luck, for all those rape victims, Pedo victims and those who were murdered, if the culprit doesn't get caught,

    How do you live like that?

    So if you get run over and the culprit does a hit and run, and the police fail to find him,

    It's "tough luck" he got away,

    What a pathetic and depressing way to live.

    Yes it poses a problem for Atheists due to the very consequences of their disbelief.

    Another absurdity is that an Atheists definition of right and wrong is subjective, it's just a bundle of opinions,
    Last edited by Saif-Uddin; 05-11-17 at 01:26 AM.
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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    It's just tough luck, for all those rape victims, Pedo victims and those who were murdered, if the culprit doesn't get caught,

    How do you live like that?

    So if you get run over and the culprit does a hit and run, and the police fail to find him,

    It's "tough luck" he got away,

    What a pathetic and depressing way to live.
    That's life, man. It stinks sometimes, but we do the best we can to get along. It doesn't do any good to pretend that the world is better than it really is.

    Yes it poses a problem for Atheists due to the very consequences of their disbelief.
    What problematic consequences are those?

    Another absurdity is that an Atheists definition of right and wrong is subjective, it's just a bundle of opinions,
    I already responded to this criticism here. Allow me to copy-paste:

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    This is a common criticism, and it's well-known to be flawed in three big ways: First, there are many plausible objective moral theories compatible with atheism; second, there are no plausible objective moral theories which depend on the existence of God; and third, there is no good evidence that objective morality exists anyway.

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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Kamel View Post
    Hypocritical claims. Once again, you absolve adults who corrupt the earth with shirk, greed and war and who cause children to suffer from diseases like cholera which is directly tie to contaminated waters with human biowaste.

    Just "human endeavors"? Mufasaduun.
    The recent cholera outbreak in Haiti was tied to UN 'peacekeepers' arrogantly dumping their biowaste into drinking water sources.

    The despicable, arrogant lying rebellion against Allah illustrated on this thread shows what "kafir" truly means.
    And why did god invent cholera then, if he knew that UN 'peacekeepers' would arrogantly dump their biowaste into drinking water sources? Why didn't god let humans kniw cholera was spread by people their biowaste into drinking water sources rather than letting them work it out over several thousand years?


    Quote Originally Posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    Your a slave to your desires.

    We are slaves to Allah عز و جل the one who is most Just.

    The tough luck argument is a logical consequence of Atheists disbelief, which Atheists don't like unfortunately.
    You mean allah didn't know or intend babies to suffer and die, but it just happened?

    As a Muslim, we don't believe in luck, nor on the screwed up mentality, that you only get your commuppance if you get caught, otherwise you got away with it.
    Doesn't the muslim belief that god knows everything mean that everybody gets caught and gets their "commuppance"? What they get caught for and whether the "commuppance" is just is another matter.

    Such a mentality does not exist amongst Muslims because we believe nobody he's away scott free from committing Heinous crimes.
    Often allegedly heinous alleged crimes. On the other hand, really heinous real crimes, if done for the right reasons, are excused.

    Your dirty mentality isn't shared amongst the Muslimeen, we believe Allah عز و جل only wants good for us, we don't commit Evil and try and pass the buck shamelessly as you have done here

    It's no wonder the moral compass of the Kuffar is completely Haywire.
    And - as it's the will of allah that I do it - do I have any choice about committing evil and trying to pass the buck shamelessly? I'd be going against Allah's will if I tried to stop it.
    Last edited by Sceptic; 05-11-17 at 05:40 AM.

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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    ....

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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    And why did god invent cholera then, if he knew that UN 'peacekeepers' would arrogantly dump their biowaste into drinking water sources? Why didn't god let humans kniw cholera was spread by people their biowaste into drinking water sources rather than letting them work it out over several thousand years?
    if X didn't happen for atheists , then God would exist.

    Thats the lamest argument one has to respond to , if X doesn;t happen , you'd still be whining about why Y happens and why God hasn't stopped it.




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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    I didn't detect any emotionalism in Sceptic's comment. Sometimes I think it's easy for believers to forget that, from the perspective of an unbeliever, God is just a character in a story. We get no more emotional about God's alleged crimes than about the crimes committed by Sauron from Lord of the Rings.
    Sceptic outrageously alleges Allah tortures children, and you compare Allah AWJ, the Lord of the Worlds, with Sauron. In just a few words, you prove my points that kufr is arrogant, despicable, rebellious degradation.

    As for believers empathizing with kufr:

    Kufr (unbelief) is not equivalent to Iman (belief). The perspective of kufr is not an equivalent alternative.
    32:18
    Is then the man who believes no better than the man who is rebellious and wicked? Not equal are they
    "Unbelief", as you call it, is described in Islam as "thulm" against oneself- tyranny of oneself, "rebellion" against Allah. When Allah commands, the believers say "we hear and we obey" (2:285), and the disbelievers say "we hear and we rebel" (2:93).

    "Unbelief" is tyranny of oneself such that on the Day, your body, your limbs, your eyes, your hands, your mouth, your tongue, will testify against you.





    This isn't a dichotomy where blame can only rest on one person or group. Rather, blame can be shared. To say that God is to blame is not to deny that the Yemenis are also to blame. It could well be the case that they are all to blame.[/QUOTE]

    Your rationale doesn't matter. It is irrelevant what you accuse, as you are no source of moral or any other authority. You don't make accusations against Allah, you merely show the world your evil and rebelliousness, like Iblees.

    There really is no discussion with your type. You come to a Muslim forum and compare the Creator of the universe, the All Merciful, the All Powerful, Lord of the Worlds, with a pathetic man made demonic fictional character from a book and movie, Sauron?


    This reflects the kind of spite and denigration you and yours bring to the world. You have worsened in your kufr until you have become TAGHUT. Look it up. Taghut, like Firaun- Pharoah, like Nimrod, like the worst of mankind. You think you are like gods on earth, but really, Allah AWJ allows you to continue to worsen as your hearts desire until He determines.

    Indeed, the worst of creation.
    Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
    " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    You mean allah didn't know or intend babies to suffer and die, but it just happened?
    This is typical of Dirty Atheists, instead of acknowledging the consequences of their disbelief, they try and blame Allah عز و جل

    There is nothing that Allah عز و جل does not know,
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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by noobz View Post
    if X didn't happen for atheists , then God would exist.

    Thats the lamest argument one has to respond to , if X doesn;t happen , you'd still be whining about why Y happens and why God hasn't stopped it.
    Where did I argue "if X didn't happen...then God would exist."? I'd say If X happens, it's evidence that a benevolent all-knowing all-powerful god doesn't exist." My argument isn't "Why does Y happen and why hasn't god stopped it?" but "Why does Y happen and why did god start it?" and the same applies to Z, A, B...


    Quote Originally Posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    This is typical of Dirty Atheists, instead of acknowledging the consequences of their disbelief, they try and blame Allah عز و جل
    How is babies suffering and dying a consequence of my disbelief?
    There is nothing that Allah عز و جل does not know,
    Precisely.
    Last edited by Sceptic; 05-11-17 at 08:39 PM.

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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Where did I argue "if X didn't happen...then God would exist."? I'd say If X happens, it's evidence that a benevolent all-knowing all-powerful god doesn't exist." My argument isn't "Why does Y happen and why hasn't god stopped it?" but "Why does Y happen and why did god start it?" and the same applies to Z, A, B...


    How is babies suffering and dying a consequence of my disbelief?Precisely.
    rickey gervais also wonders why babies are born and why he hates them and why god hasn't made people infertile to stop population explosion.

    lame argument , you say why Y happens , another says why does Y^2 happen.

    In the end , its all about why why X , Y and Z happens. Just show me all the answers so i can talk a walk in this life without any tests and show my loyalty.




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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by noobz View Post
    rickey gervais also wonders why babies are born and why he hates them and why god hasn't made people infertile to stop population explosion.

    lame argument , you say why Y happens , another says why does Y^2 happen.

    In the end , its all about why why X , Y and Z happens. Just show me all the answers so i can talk a walk in this life without any tests and show my loyalty.
    I'm not showing answers for why "X , Y and Z happen". I just want to know why people believe a supposedly good god makes them happen.

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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    I'm not showing answers for why "X , Y and Z happen". I just want to know why people believe a supposedly good god makes them happen.
    Well Muslims believe in Islam based on experiencing the powerful nature of the Quran , and being influenced by the Prophet(saws). The Quran has Godly qualities - unlike any other religious book. Also the Prophet(saws) has many signs and proofs for his Prophethood(saws).

    Attempting to challenge his theology in this manner is not really a sound argument. I would say that this is more or less an emotional argument , which only appears to be logical on it's outer shell.

    1) It is not the claim of Islaam that Allah is Love , or Allah loves all people equally ( as some Christians claim themselves ) , or that Allah created us in a perfect carefree world. We theologically believe that worldly life has it's ups and downs , and it is all apart of the test. It is also a means by which Allah separates true believers from the hypocrites. And also a way which he allocates the retribution of sin in order to free us from punishment in the next life. There are many wisdoms in how Allah created the world , and in the way He manages things. It is not at all necessary for us to always provide rational reasons to make sense of Allah's plans - it is completely fine to trust Allah's wisdom , after acknowledging the truthfulness of the religion. Allah is the Most Merciful because He said so. Subjective moral objections are not even evidences towards a Being we acknowledge as Infinitely Knowledgeable and Truthful.

    2) Life is not all gloom and doom. Every second you breathe is a reason to praise God. He created this world , and provided for every single thing. He granted us intellect , abilities , families and spouses. He sent Messengers to warn and instruct us upon Gods expectations. These are all realities and manifestations of His Mercy. Appreciating God for these blessings will never come to rest , and truly we take them all for granted.

    Turn the question back at you. You were granted life , vision , intellect and various abilities - I want to know why you don't acknowledge God? In reality , you are the one with the explaining to do.

    Peace
    Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 06-11-17 at 12:35 AM.

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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    How many of these millions of deaths are the cause of Man?

    For a start there wouldn't be millions of deaths in Africa if it wasn't for the Americans and Europeans.

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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    I'm not showing answers for why "X , Y and Z happen". I just want to know why people believe a supposedly good god makes them happen.
    well . Allah(swt) tells the believers that this world is a prison for them.

    you can't put that argument infront of us , as Allah(swt) already told 'us' that he will test us with trials and tribulations to see if we truly believe.




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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    How many of these millions of deaths are the cause of Man?

    For a start there wouldn't be millions of deaths in Africa if it wasn't for the Americans and Europeans.
    basically the atheist argument above is that 'man' is Gods fault as he let it happen.

    If God stopped it from happening , then these guys would be crying that they can't decide what to do with themselves and their decisions are made by some1 else.

    then he says why do babies die? ... why is the argument only limited to 'babies' ? ... why does anyone die? .... the fragile emotional argument of putting 'babies' into seems to seep into some form of melodramatic play. As if toddlers , teens and adults don't matter when they die.




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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    How many of these millions of deaths are the cause of Man?

    For a start there wouldn't be millions of deaths in Africa if it wasn't for the Americans and Europeans.
    There wouldn't be so many millions of people in Africa to die if it wasn't for the Americans and Europeans. They came up with the technology and medicines that enable people to live longer than about five years and the agricultural improvements that feed them.

    How wouldn't thee be millions of deaths in Africa if it wasn't for the Americans and Europeans?

    Quote Originally Posted by noobz View Post
    well . Allah(swt) tells the believers that this world is a prison for them.

    you can't put that argument infront of us , as Allah(swt) already told 'us' that he will test us with trials and tribulations to see if we truly believe.
    So, it's OK for god to test us by torturing other people?

    Quote Originally Posted by noobz View Post
    basically the atheist argument above is that 'man' is Gods fault as he let it happen.

    If God stopped it from happening , then these guys would be crying that they can't decide what to do with themselves and their decisions are made by some1 else.

    then he says why do babies die? ... why is the argument only limited to 'babies' ? ... why does anyone die? .... the fragile emotional argument of putting 'babies' into seems to seep into some form of melodramatic play. As if toddlers , teens and adults don't matter when they die.
    Thr=e argument for babies is because it's generally assumed that babies are innocent of sin in a way that adults are not. Using babies as examples is the simplest and least complicated form of the argument
    It isn't a matter of "God let it happen.", with an all-powerful all-knowing god, In that case, "God made it happen.", if you believe in god.
    Last edited by Sceptic; 06-11-17 at 04:05 AM.

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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    Well Muslims believe in Islam based on experiencing the powerful nature of the Quran , and being influenced by the Prophet(saws). The Quran has Godly qualities - unlike any other religious book. Also the Prophet(saws) has many signs and proofs for his Prophethood(saws).

    Attempting to challenge his theology in this manner is not really a sound argument. I would say that this is more or less an emotional argument , which only appears to be logical on it's outer shell.
    What about non-religious books? How do we tell the koran has qualities - religious or or other - that other books do not? The claim that god is good, presupposes that god has qualities that we humans perceive as good. It's possible to argue that "good", by god's definition is different, but in that case, the people who put it forward must explain why human definitions of "good" differ from god's.

    1) It is not the claim of Islaam that Allah is Love , or Allah loves all people equally ( as some Christians claim themselves ) , or that Allah created us in a perfect carefree world. We theologically believe that worldly life has it's ups and downs , and it is all apart of the test. It is also a means by which Allah separates true believers from the hypocrites. And also a way which he allocates the retribution of sin in order to free us from punishment in the next life. There are many wisdoms in how Allah created the world , and in the way He manages things. It is not at all necessary for us to always provide rational reasons to make sense of Allah's plans - it is completely fine to trust Allah's wisdom , after acknowledging the truthfulness of the religion. Allah is the Most Merciful because He said so. Subjective moral objections are not even evidences towards a Being we acknowledge as Infinitely Knowledgeable and Truthful.
    ...but is the test just? After all, god knows - and creates - the results before we take it.
    "Allah is the Most Merciful because He said so. " raises some very interesting questions: after all Allah may be the Most Merciful in that he isn't quite as unmerciful as the alternative candidates, not because he is merciful at all.

    2) Life is not all gloom and doom. Every second you breathe is a reason to praise God. He created this world , and provided for every single thing. He granted us intellect , abilities , families and spouses. He sent Messengers to warn and instruct us upon Gods expectations. These are all realities and manifestations of His Mercy. Appreciating God for these blessings will never come to rest , and truly we take them all for granted.
    ...and what happens is entirely pre-planned by god. As well as the good things, god created all of the bad things that happen, and he knew they were going to happen.

    Turn the question back at you. You were granted life , vision , intellect and various abilities - I want to know why you don't acknowledge God? In reality , you are the one with the explaining to do.

    Peace
    It's not my fault. God made me like that.
    Using the abilities god granted me, I don't see any reason to believe there is a god, certainly not a god that is interested in human beings.

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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    It's not my fault. God made me like that.
    Using the abilities god granted me, I don't see any reason to believe there is a god, certainly not a god that is interested in human beings.
    i have to agree with you hear.

    Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment. [Surah Al Baqarah 2 ; 7]




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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    There wouldn't be so many millions of people in Africa to die if it wasn't for the Americans and Europeans. They came up with the technology and medicines that enable people to live longer than about five years and the agricultural improvements that feed them.

    How wouldn't thee be millions of deaths in Africa if it wasn't for the Americans and Europeans?

    So, it's OK for god to test us by torturing other people?

    Thr=e argument for babies is because it's generally assumed that babies are innocent of sin in a way that adults are not. Using babies as examples is the simplest and least complicated form of the argument
    It isn't a matter of "God let it happen.", with an all-powerful all-knowing god, In that case, "God made it happen.", if you believe in god.
    so basically its only babies not dying and adults dying is ok with you? ... cause we never hear the argument about how wrong it is for anyone other than babies dying which shows that you're disregarding others and its only dead babies which is an issue.

    its totally fine to torture us here to see if we're upto the challenge and if we really do believe , you are going to be tortured in the afterlife also , why not start whining about that also then.




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    Re: An Atheistic Argument - Millions of babies dying each year

    Quote Originally Posted by noobz View Post
    so basically its only babies not dying and adults dying is ok with you? ... cause we never hear the argument about how wrong it is for anyone other than babies dying which shows that you're disregarding others and its only dead babies which is an issue.

    its totally fine to torture us here to see if we're upto the challenge and if we really do believe , you are going to be tortured in the afterlife also , why not start whining about that also then.
    You didn't answer my question: So, it's OK for god to test us by torturing other people? God tests our belief that he is good by torturing other people - is that evidence he is good.
    I cited babies because most people - you're an exception, it seems - regard it as absolutely bad to torture babies, whereas they can often make exceptions with adults. Since you ask, I think that the muslim and Christian belief that most humans are going to be horribly tortured for ever is also bad. Even as punishment, the worst person that ever lived - the worst person that could ever live - would be unjustly treated if they treated like that.

 

 

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