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  1. #1
    اصبر aynina's Avatar
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    Social security in an islamic state



    How would social security be in an islamic state?

    1) wellfare for unemployemeny
    2) child benifit
    3) retirement
    4) wellfare for sick or disabled people
    5) wellfare for work related diseases or accidents
    6) yearly vacation

    In Belgium this, and the sustaining of the entire country (roads, health, public spaces,...) is done with withholding 13.07% of 108% of the workman's loan. How is this done, in an islamic state with 2.5% of 100% of a workman's wage?
    Last edited by .Hajar.; 18-10-17 at 10:07 PM.
    يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ ٱعْبُدُوا۟ رَبَّكُمُ ٱلَّذِى خَلَقَكُمْ وَٱلَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ

    O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous

    Surah Al Baqarah ayah 21

  2. #41
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    People are trying to take laws mitten 1400 years ago in a society was low tech society that was just above subsistence level farming for most of the population, and try to force them onto a modern nation and expect it to work. It will not.

    As times changes laws need to change with it to cover changing times and changing technology and changing needs and changing infrastructure. No nation 1400 years ago needed money to build tanks, airplanes, airports, super highways, power plants and electrical grids, ports for super sized transports, cars, trucks, hospitals for cities now sized in hundreds of thousands if not millions, traffic lights, colleges and schools in today's scale and needs, internet, computers, and etc.

    these modern changes, needs changes in laws and different methods of tax collection that is different than 1400 years ago. 1400 low tech society tax regulations will not work.

  3. #42
    On A Hired Plane of Logic LailaTheMuslim's Avatar
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    Then what do you do when the oil runs out, mine dries up, or you happen to live in a nation like japan with little natural resources in Islam? Most nations don't have huge oil reserves and such.
    Then they can use the money they've made up from oil to invest in other initiatives. Many countries have oil that hasn't dried up. Also in regards to your other post, maybe Venezuela had corruption issues and didn't invest their resources wisely.
    وَاقْصِدْ فِي مَشْيِكَ وَاغْضُضْ مِن صَوْتِكَ ۚ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الْأَصْوَاتِ لَصَوْتُ الْحَمِيرِ - 31:19

    And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."


    أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

    Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


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  4. #43
    On A Hired Plane of Logic LailaTheMuslim's Avatar
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    وَاقْصِدْ فِي مَشْيِكَ وَاغْضُضْ مِن صَوْتِكَ ۚ إِنَّ أَنكَرَ الْأَصْوَاتِ لَصَوْتُ الْحَمِيرِ - 31:19

    And be moderate in your pace and lower your voice; indeed, the most disagreeable of sounds is the voice of donkeys."


    أَلَمْ تَرَوْا أَنَّ اللَّهَ سَخَّرَ لَكُم مَّا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الْأَرْضِ وَأَسْبَغَ عَلَيْكُمْ نِعَمَهُ ظَاهِرَةً وَبَاطِنَةً ۗ وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يُجَادِلُ فِي اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَلَا هُدًى وَلَا كِتَابٍ مُّنِيرٍ - 31:20

    Do you not see that Allah has made subject to you whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth and amply bestowed upon you His favors, [both] apparent and unapparent? But of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening Book [from Him].


    Please take a look at my travel booking website : https://destinationfindertravel.com/

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  5. #44
    Odan
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Quote Originally Posted by aynina View Post
    So everyone receives it, not just those in need?
    Yes.

    But keep in mind that these stipends are not mandated in the Shariah. A ruler of an Islamic State can come up with some other welfare system if he wants. The only guideline I know in the Shariah is that water, pasture, and fire (electricity/gas) are to be free. “Three things cannot be denied anyone: water, pasture and fire” (narrated by Ibn Maajah, 2473). “The Muslims are partners in three things: water, pasture and fire, and their price is haraam” (narrated by Ibn Maajah, 2472).

    Also keep in mind that zakah is not the only revenue for an Islamic government. There are other taxes, war booty, natural resources, investments, and so on.

    Finally, keep in mind that Eastern cultures in general, but Muslim cultures specifically, are very different than modern day Western cultures. The first safety net for someone who is unemployed or disabled is not the government, but rather his extended family and neighbors. Yes, an Islamic government would help him too, but mostly he will rely on his relatives and neighbors. Recall that charity is supposed to be given to your relatives who are in need first, before giving to someone else.
    Last edited by abdulsidd; 19-10-17 at 09:02 PM.

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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    Most nations, do not have smaller population of Saudi Arabia and sitting on huge oil reserves. What was Saudi Arabia like before the discovery of this oil, and what do you think will happen when they run out of oil? If they stop selling oil, what will happen?
    There have been stipends for citizens in Arabia for over 1400 years, with and without oil.

  7. #46
    Odan Abu julaybeeb's Avatar
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    Was that because that these benefits were paid for by taking houses from minority population, stealing other people's wealth and property and calling it war booty, attacking and capturing other nation's oil fields and selling that oil?

    This is a modern day example of what happens when you try to run and and establish a government around the idea of attack everyone and steal their property as war booty to fund your nation. The rest of the world says no, gets together, and ends your nation in bombs and explosions.
    Say what you want but for 3 years the crime rate was reduced no alchahol no prosititution no drugs or dealings
    They ran cities good even people in the west have admitted u can even see the interview about the man that visited raaqah for vice
    He explains in his own interview by some news channel how succeasful their state was

  8. #47
    Odan Abu julaybeeb's Avatar
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    People are trying to take laws mitten 1400 years ago in a society was low tech society that was just above subsistence level farming for most of the population, and try to force them onto a modern nation and expect it to work. It will not.

    As times changes laws need to change with it to cover changing times and changing technology and changing needs and changing infrastructure. No nation 1400 years ago needed money to build tanks, airplanes, airports, super highways, power plants and electrical grids, ports for super sized transports, cars, trucks, hospitals for cities now sized in hundreds of thousands if not millions, traffic lights, colleges and schools in today's scale and needs, internet, computers, and etc.

    these modern changes, needs changes in laws and different methods of tax collection that is different than 1400 years ago. 1400 low tech society tax regulations will not work.
    In the Quran it says this religion has been conpleted for you we are not allowed to change it and we wont
    We can still apply the same legal system and economic system as it was 1400 years ago iraq and syria are a perfect example it was thriving until the coalition airstrikes
    Even christians were living in mosul
    People can say what they want they can hate the group if they want
    But no can deny they maintained a good system to live by

  9. #48
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post
    Say what you want but for 3 years the crime rate was reduced no alchahol no prosititution no drugs or dealings
    They ran cities good even people in the west have admitted u can even see the interview about the man that visited raaqah for vice
    He explains in his own interview by some news channel how succeasful their state was
    Except for the crimes of sexual slavery, underage sexual slavery, kidnapping, mass murder of minority groups, mass murder of Muslims, theft of minority groups wealth and property, supporting and promoting terrorism, burning people alive in cages on filmed for entertainment, kidnapping and mass murder by shooting or beheading or even by rpg's filmed for entertainment, depopulating entire villages and now over 40 mass grave sites created by isis, mass murder of Muslims who did not support isis, torture of prisoners, creating an atmosphere of fear by searching phones randomly, limiting communication, limiting internet and limiting travel and by doing mass be-headings and putting the heads on walls and letting kids play with the heads on film, attacking other nations oil fields in order to keep it for themselves, ignoring the fact they were killing other Muslims in order to do that, and attacking everyone around them. kidnapping of people for ransom demands

    If you ignore all that, their must have been no crimes and at least no one smokes or drank alchool.
    Last edited by Door; 20-10-17 at 08:57 AM.

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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post
    I
    But no can deny they maintained a good system to live by
    only by ignoring all these facts...

    sexual slavery
    underage sexual slavery
    kidnapping
    mass murder of minority groups
    mass murder of Muslims
    theft of minority groups wealth and property
    supporting and promoting terrorism
    burning people alive in cages on filmed for entertainment
    kidnapping and mass murder by shooting or beheading or even by rpg's filmed for entertainment
    depopulating entire villages and now over 40 mass grave sites created by isis
    mass murder of Muslims who did not support isis
    torture of prisoners
    creating an atmosphere of fear by searching phones randomly
    limiting communication
    limiting internet
    limiting travel
    mass be-headings and putting the heads on walls and letting kids play with the heads on film
    attacking other nations oil fields in order to keep it for themselves while ignoring the fact they were killing other Muslims in order to do that
    attacking everyone around them
    kidnapping of people for ransom demands

  11. #50
    اصبر aynina's Avatar
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Quote Originally Posted by abdulsidd View Post
    Yes.

    But keep in mind that these stipends are not mandated in the Shariah. A ruler of an Islamic State can come up with some other welfare system if he wants. The only guideline I know in the Shariah is that water, pasture, and fire (electricity/gas) are to be free. “Three things cannot be denied anyone: water, pasture and fire” (narrated by Ibn Maajah, 2473). “The Muslims are partners in three things: water, pasture and fire, and their price is haraam” (narrated by Ibn Maajah, 2472).

    Also keep in mind that zakah is not the only revenue for an Islamic government. There are other taxes, war booty, natural resources, investments, and so on.

    Finally, keep in mind that Eastern cultures in general, but Muslim cultures specifically, are very different than modern day Western cultures. The first safety net for someone who is unemployed or disabled is not the government, but rather his extended family and neighbors. Yes, an Islamic government would help him too, but mostly he will rely on his relatives and neighbors. Recall that charity is supposed to be given to your relatives who are in need first, before giving to someone else.
    Okay subhaNallah very interesting..

    On the other hand if say we made belgium into an islamic state, most of the muslims here already enjoy wellfare, and i doubt that anyone would help their neighbours, the mentality of helping one another is completely gone because they have been living under a system that they can abuse for so long, i doubt that this mutual respect and respect for the govt would arise the day muslims rule the country

    (Even though i realise belgium isnt rly the first country that would rule with sharia)
    يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ ٱعْبُدُوا۟ رَبَّكُمُ ٱلَّذِى خَلَقَكُمْ وَٱلَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ

    O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous

    Surah Al Baqarah ayah 21

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    اصبر aynina's Avatar
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post
    Say what you want but for 3 years the crime rate was reduced no alchahol no prosititution no drugs or dealings
    They ran cities good even people in the west have admitted u can even see the interview about the man that visited raaqah for vice
    He explains in his own interview by some news channel how succeasful their state was
    Yea those docus were also a big reason why i thought these guys were actually legit
    يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ ٱعْبُدُوا۟ رَبَّكُمُ ٱلَّذِى خَلَقَكُمْ وَٱلَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ

    O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous

    Surah Al Baqarah ayah 21

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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post
    I
    We can still apply the same legal system and economic system as it was 1400 years ago
    so 1400 years ago how did they find the money to create airports, power plants with an electrical grid, maintain cities with running water sewage and garbage disposal of hundreds of thousands of people or even over a million, buy and maintain computers, internet, software needed, build tanks, airplanes, and rockets for defense, build colleges and hospitals with equipment like electronic microscopes, x-ray machines, brain and body scan machines, the modern medicines of today, hospital devices that cost multiple thousands of dollars, develop satellites and space program?
    Last edited by Door; 20-10-17 at 09:20 AM.

  14. #53
    islamreligion.com eesa the kiwi's Avatar
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Who left the door open?
    It may not be easy, you may not understand it, but you need to have the Imaan to trust Allah when life doesn't make sense.
    "Whoever intends eternal happiness, then let him hold tight to the threshold of servitude.” ibn Taymiyyah.

  15. #54
    striving to be sincere Abu Kamel's Avatar
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    I will respond in depth at a later time.
    Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
    " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

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    Odan Morose's Avatar
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
    Who left the door open?

  17. #56
    Odan Abu julaybeeb's Avatar
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    so 1400 years ago how did they find the money to create airports, power plants with an electrical grid, maintain cities with running water sewage and garbage disposal of hundreds of thousands of people or even over a million, buy and maintain computers, internet, software needed, build tanks, airplanes, and rockets for defense, build colleges and hospitals with equipment like electronic microscopes, x-ray machines, brain and body scan machines, the modern medicines of today, hospital devices that cost multiple thousands of dollars, develop satellites and space program?
    Are you muslim?

  18. #57
    striving to be sincere Abu Kamel's Avatar
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state



    Quote Originally Posted by aynina View Post


    How would social security be in an islamic state?

    1) wellfare for unemployemeny
    2) child benifit
    3) retirement
    4) wellfare for sick or disabled people
    5) wellfare for work related diseases or accidents
    6) yearly vacation

    In Belgium this, and the sustaining of the entire country (roads, health, public spaces,...) is done with withholding 13.07% of 108% of the workman's loan. How is this done, in an islamic state with 2.5% of 100% of a workman's wage?


    There are significant fundamental differences between an Islamic state, or Islamic society with an Islamic economic system, and any single state, or even the entire world order, under Liberalism, which is what the world is today. One cannot compare Belgium to an Islamic state. It is a tiny micro-state that exists as part of the larger European Union and Europe community, all of which are part of the American controlled World Order (or empire).

    The real issue is to recognize how Islam addresses the economic problem, in contrast to Liberalism. And then one may determine how Islam addresses the needs of people in contrast to Liberalism.

    So, first, what is being asked is "how does Islam address social welfare in society in comparison or contrast to contemporary Liberalism?" And "what is the concept of social welfare"?

    First, the social welfare of today- social security, welfare programs, retirement programs, even minimum wage, workers rights like vacations and sick leave, etc. are the legislative reactions and ideological responses to the severity and devastation caused by Liberalism when it was implemented purely on society.

    Unadulterated Liberalism was implemented in Britain in the late 1700s through 1800s, and in America in the mid 1800s and early 1900s ce with little modification. This brought about devastation to the working and lower classes, devastating the family concept, devastating social fibers of Anglo society, resulting in all kinds of social chaos and diseases. Life expectancy was in the 40s for most men, infant mortality was high, mass migrations from substantive farming in rural areas to labor in mines, factories, and in service jobs in urban areas meant families were divided, or didnt survive.

    All kinds of social ills occurred. And many European and British economists like Malthus, Stuart Mill, John Keynes, and others, offered alternatives. In the early 1800s ce ideas of socialism emerged in Britain. Also from this reaction came "scientific socialism", also known as Marxism from Karl Marx and J Engels which would become Communism.

    It should be recognized that among Liberalism are those in the camp who believe the poor, sick, elderly, and others who require welfare assistance, should DIE OFF so as to no longer be a burden on the society. This was an active concept from the 1800s in Europe and America trough Malthusianism, and later Social Darwinism. Malthusianism is the belief that overpopulation will deplete limited resources, resulting in greater suffering and eventual civilizational collapse. Thus, the need to control population growth, or if need be, redirect limited resources to the more valuable members of society ( the rich- "job producers") while depriving those who are a "social burden" (the poor, sick, elderly, etc).

    As well, Social Darwinism applied the these and similar beliefs found in the Occult to direct human evolution for those who are strongest, ie. rich elites, while allowing certain others to become "extinct", or to DIE OFF.

    So by the late 1800s, early 1900s ce, Europe and America were wrestling with these truly evil and dangerous ideas while trying to contend with the unintended side effects ( and sometimes not so unintended effects) of the implementation of Liberalism.

    That's when the ideas of social welfare emerged. Social security was originally designed by an economist, Epstein, who wanted government to allocate from its revenue certain amounts as a kind of retirement plan for laborers who couldn't save for themselves.

    By the 1900s ce, "ethical socialism" gained support in Britain and gave rise to the Fabian Society, which in turn began the London School of Economics. "Ethical Socialism" had global following from people like Muhammad Ali Jinnah, Nehru, Michel Aflaq, and others who were members of the Fabian society.

    So what we call today "welfare" and economic rights like minimum wage are actually the results of these movements to counter the negative effects of Liberalism, and to set back those who believed and supported the dying off of the needy- like the Rush Limbaughs of yesteryear.

    This is a result of the fundamental mistakes of Liberalism.
    If Islam could be contrasted from Liberalism on an ideological level:
    Liberalism, as designed by freemason Thomas Locke who also invented American Chattel Slavery, focuses on and empowers production, while deemphasizing distribution.

    Islam, however, focuses on distribution.

    Or, the fundamental economic problem of Liberalism is: there is a limited number of resources but an unlimited number of needs. To seemingly resolve this quandary, Liberalism focuses on production such that massive, constant, perpetual production of resources will eventually fulfill needs.

    Islam, however does NOT accept this.
    Islam recognizes that there are limited resources, AND limited needs, because Islam defines needs and separates them from wants.

    Liberalism groups "needs" and "wants" such that a TV or new phone is equal or even greater than fresh water. Liberalism does not distinguish.

    The HAQQ TRUTH is both Liberalism AND Islam recognize production is a function of economic science, whereas Liberalism claims distribution should redirect wealth and resources to production, whereas Islam asserts that wealth and resources should be redistributed according to Divine Law.

    Liberalism claims redirection and distribution of wealth and resources towards production should occur for the purpose of production and should be through private means. This is a lie. This is a ploy to use governments to redirect wealth to the rich, elite, and their corporations, and future corporation endeavors even if its to the long term detriment of society.

    Islam recognizes that the economic system - ALL ECONOMIC SYSTEMS- are dominated by governments, and governments should adhere to DIVINE LAW- Ahkam Sharaa.


    So the Islamic economic system recognizes production as a function of economic science, whereas distribution is the function of ideology.
    Last edited by Abu Kamel; 30-10-17 at 08:21 AM.
    Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
    " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

  19. #58
    striving to be sincere Abu Kamel's Avatar
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    That being said,

    Islam MUST NOT exist within the confines of a kufr ideological world order. Meaning, Islam was not revealed to exist under the auspices of tyrannical, kafir elites who act as Tawaghit to misguide mankind and implement their own economic theories and beliefs.

    Holy Quran 61:9
    It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although those who associate others with Allah dislike it.
    Thus, Islam exists as it's own, self sustaining way of life which includes its own economic system.

    The Islamic economic system has different legal definitions and legal parameters from Liberalism. For example, as Abdul Sidd mentioned the hadith "water pasture fire". This text is understood by fuqaha to mean these are public property and when in large quantities, cannot be privately owned. As well, they are interpreted such that "fire" refers such that oil, gas, mineral, precious metals are public property and cannot be private property owned by a sole shaykh, or a single family, or a sole corporation. Rather, they belong to the Muslim people ( and ahlil dhimmah).

    This HUKM stands alone in direct conflict with the entire LIBERAL WORLD ORDER AND GLOBAL EMPIRE wherein Western nations and their corporations work endlessly to acquire ownership of natural resources, especially precious metals, gas/oil especially of Muslim lands.

    This is one example of how DIVINE LAW when obeyed, implemented followed, could redistribute wealth in the society away from elites, corporations, and Tawaghit imperial powers, directly to the people. Whether that means people have direct access to these resources, or that the Islamic government uses revenue of those resources to fund their needs, like healthcare, education, medical care for the sick, retirement. etc.

    Also, by following DIVINE LAW, interest is forbidden. Interest, and its various evil branches, such as the finance and insurance industries, artificially inflate the price of products and commodities which fall under "needs".

    By implementing the entire Islamic economic system WITHOUT TAGHUT interference, the systemwide costs for basic needs will decrease. Health care for sick, elderly and all, as well as education will decrease, as well general cost of living given that insurance and interest based loans artificially inflate the costs of living when it comes to housing, vehicles for transportation, etc.

    As well, in 1973 ce, the income of a butcher in America was enough to provide for a family of four: husband/butcher, wife stay at home, two kids, and a house (with haram mortgage). Today, 2017 ce, 44 years later, the income of a butcher isn't enough for a sole person to live in a rented apartment. He and his wife/partner must both work full time, he may even need two or more jobs. Certainly the butcher today cannot save money for his retirement as he cannot even pay his monthly rent. And if he is suffering from a serious health problem, he cannot pay for his own medications at the same time as pay for his own food.

    So the Liberal economic system has inflated cost of living while stagnated, even deprived wages and driven down the price of labor. They have also privatized basic necessities: education, health care, even water & electricity.

    Another example of dramatic difference is that the Liberal state has set up the banking industry to function between the government and the people. This has produced an industry of finance and "middle men" who literally produce nothing, but generate wealth for themselves, the rich elites, and take from the poor and needy. They award themselves Nobel prizes for this, as evident in the Nobel Award for "micro-financing".

    The Islamic state does NOT recognize a banking industry as legitimate. There should be no middle man between the government of the khalifah and the people who give him bayah, such that loans are issued directly from the khalifah to the people, and paid without interest.

    Another contrast is the LIBERAL CORPORATION would be ended. Limited liability and shielding the rich and powerful from accountability and liability while forcing all less powerful people to face full accountability, even forcing them to surrender their legal rights in exchange for ownership and services, is a major sourceof injustice. The limited liability public or semi public corporation would end. The rich elites could no longer hide behind a matrix of shell corporations. By ending these, this would also reduce monopolies nad oligopolies in the marketplace such that corporations would be forced to face their crimes.

    As Hadrat Abu Bakr declared when he became khalifah:
    ""I have been given the authority over you, and I am not the best of you. If I do well, help me; and if I do wrong, set me right.
    Sincere regard for truth is loyalty and disregard for truth is treachery.
    The weak amongst you shall be strong with me until I have secured his rights, if God will; and the strong amongst you shall be weak with me until I have wrested from him the rights of others, if God will. Obey me so long as I obey God and His Messenger (Muhammad, pbuh). But if I disobey God and His Messenger, ye owe me no obedience. Arise for your prayer, God have mercy upon you."

    The excellent words summarize the function and relation of the Islamic state with the people.

    As mentioned, the state functions as the primary force of an economy, rather than the "INVISIBLE HAND" as Liberal economist Adam Smith claimed.
    And the state should obey the DIVINE LAW to the best of its ability in order to redirect the economy to distribute wealth, property, resources, services as Allah has commanded. Doing so results in harmonious balance and fulfillment of basic life needs, as evident numerous times in Islamic history, such as under khalifa Umar bin Abdul Aziz, the grandson of Hadrat Umar and the first mujaddid of the Muslim Ummah.
    Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
    " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

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    striving to be sincere Abu Kamel's Avatar
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    From what I understand, Door is a kafir woman.

    She openly advocates Liberalism and has confused the last 100 years of global Liberal world order as the only way for contemporary human civilization to exist with it's present inventions and systemization. While IS are not the best the Muslim Ummah can produce, under unimaginable odds, in only a few years, it was able to convert its society to a functional Islamic economic system which was thriving and would have continued to do so, if not for full scale warfare and civilizational destruction by Door's Tawaghit masters.

    And this is evident in early Western media reports from Vice and others who immediately began reporting economics in the IS state. Once it came out that businesses were thriving, Vice changed it's reporting, likely after being threatened by American Taghut powers, to beheadings and etc.

    The reality is Islam does not need IS or any single group. It as a system has been implemented from the time of the Prophet until the last years of the Ottoman sultanate/khilafah- roughly 1300 years. The last 100 years, the Ottomans deviated, and they had been undermining Islam for decades with their stagnating tyranny and other corruptions, including maintaining the "closed door" of ijtihad.
    And the Prophet prophecized that it will be reestablished once again.

    The reality is the only way for mankind to survive is with Islam. Mankind following the Americanization aka "globalization" of the world, a world order of complete full spectrum Liberalism, will bring global darkness and destruction.

    America itself is a shell of what it once was. Its infrastructure is collapsing everywhere. It has societal epidemics of opiods, meth, narcotics that are killing rural and working classes throughout the country. Gang cultures have replaced families after Liberalism has decimated families in every facet. Every aspect of life is being privatized for the profit of holding companies and mega-billionaires, like road, bridges, tunnels. Water is being privatized such that natural springs not polluted by agri-farms, have been bought up for mere cents on the dollar, to be bottled and sold for dozens of dollars for the gallon.

    Every aspect of life in America has changed, and this is what the entire world will face, but with worse tyranny and darkness.
    Last edited by Abu Kamel; 30-10-17 at 09:25 AM.
    Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
    " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

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    اصبر aynina's Avatar
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Brother @Abu Kamel i honestly think ur not making any sense

    You didnt give a solution how to take care of the people living under the state
    يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ ٱعْبُدُوا۟ رَبَّكُمُ ٱلَّذِى خَلَقَكُمْ وَٱلَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ

    O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous

    Surah Al Baqarah ayah 21

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    striving to be sincere Abu Kamel's Avatar
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Quote Originally Posted by aynina View Post
    Brother @Abu Kamel i honestly think ur not making any sense

    You didnt give a solution how to take care of the people living under the state
    I think I offered some example, without just listing "social welfare" concepts in Islam.

    You asked for how Islam addresses social welfare programs, but you don't show you understand the origin and reason for these programs, nor do you show understanding of how Islam differs from Liberalism. So in a few words, I attempted to provide answers when in reality it should take hours to get one up to speed.

    It is an fundamentally different approach, not just a different set of policies.

    Do you know who Keynes and the Fabians are?
    Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
    " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

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    اصبر aynina's Avatar
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Kamel View Post
    I think I offered some example, without just listing "social welfare" concepts in Islam.

    You asked for how Islam addresses social welfare programs, but you don't show you understand the origin and reason for these programs, nor do you show understanding of how Islam differs from Liberalism. So in a few words, I attempted to provide answers when in reality it should take hours to get one up to speed.

    It is an fundamentally different approach, not just a different set of policies.

    Do you know who Keynes and the Fabians are?
    Sorry i mean all i wondered is how a person that needs a new heart will come up with the money to pay for it, how a man that had an accident will probide for his family, how elderly is taken care off etc

    No i do not know them
    يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ ٱعْبُدُوا۟ رَبَّكُمُ ٱلَّذِى خَلَقَكُمْ وَٱلَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ

    O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous

    Surah Al Baqarah ayah 21

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    Senior Member neelu's Avatar
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    You're missing out so many key points in your calculations by focusing on how much tax revenue can come from low to medium incomes. Consider the fact that the top 1% of wealthiest people own 50% of the world's wealth. 2.5% of their wealth would amount to trillions which is more than enough to cover the costs of providing welfare for those listed in the Quran as entitled (ie the poor, disabled, wayfarer etc). I know you'll say maybe many of that 1% wont live under shariah, but my point still stands that when a small percentage is taken from the wealthy echelons of society, it translates into a huge amount which would be sufficient to help keep a country's services going. Even if we look at a few people in the next wealthiest 5%, they must earn obscene amounts that we can't even imagine and a lot of that money didn't come from their sweat or hard work, it came from either being landlords collecting huge rents like feudal lords, or it came from the hard work of their employees who barely get a subsistence wage whilst these people cream off the real wealth.

    Compare that with the western world, where the wealthiest corporations aren't paying tax, or they pay less than half of what they are supposed to due to tax evasion schemes. Never mind Starbucks or Vodafone, even most of parliament consists of millionaires who are involved in Panama/Caymen style evasion schemes to hide their wealth, whilst your average Joe on a low wage gets crushed by quantative easing that reduces the value of the money he has, government refusals to increase the minimum wage, paying a greater proportion of his wealth in tax compared to wealthy corporations and using "austerity" as an excuse to deprive him of services even more.

    Aside from that are the other taxes. The jizya tax is taken from non Muslims, then there's the kharaj tax which is a land tax, so kharaj would only affect people who are wealthy enough to own and use their land- again, it means the greater onus is on taking a higher amount of money from the wealthy to ensure fairer wealth distribution. In fact, under Islamic rule, if people don't make good use of the land, it's confiscated from them so that others can have the opportunity to put it to good use, so the land doesn't remain in the hands of a few wealthy elites.

    As someone else pointed out in an earlier post, according to hadith evidences, people living under Islamic rule have the right to food, clothing shelter. They also have the right to free utilities such as water and fuel. So the state is already taking care of a significant chunk of expenses. Riba would be banned so people wouldn't be crushed by riba based student debt or mortgages and the only loans they would accept wouldn't permit interest. National resources would not come under corporate/private ownership, which means Islamic rule would not allow a Nigeria type situation, whereby the average people live in poverty whilst a big multinational corporation makes all the money out of it's natural oil wealth.

    As for the welfare/benefits:

    - Islamic rule would provide for the sick and disabled

    - that includes those who are disabled by work related accidents (I'm guessing if company negligence caused the accident then the company would be forced to pay but if it were an unavoidable accident then the state would take responsibility- but that's just a guess)

    - As for child benefit and retirement; in Islam generally it is the family's responsibility to look after their children and their elderly, not dump their babies into nurseries whilst the parents go back to work and leave their elders in an old people's home. Of course there are circumstances in which sending a relative to a home may be unavoidable (such as needing 24hour specialised medical care that the family aren't qualified to provide), but that should be the exception not the norm. The fact that women have a choice in whether to work or not (and are encouraged to stay home once they have children) makes it easier for children and elders to be taken care of by family. There is also a line in Quran which translates as "give the breastfeeding women their wage", meaning there's responsibility upon the husband to give his wife money whilst she's rearing young children (and therefore not in a position to work). I don't know if child benefits or pensions would exist under an Islamic system or not cos' a lot of the onus on taking care of children and elders is placed on the family rather than the state. The state would assist in other areas though such as medical care, or if an elder parent is blind, providing an assistant to be a guide and so on so that the family are not left to struggle with every responsibility on their own

    - yearly vacation: I don't know if there was such a thing as yearly vacations under Islamic rule. I know that the two Eids are considered national holidays and that Fridays are also taken as a day off every week. Beyond that I don't know if there were other provisions for vacation time

    - unemployment benefit: If a person under Islamic rule is poor and destitute under Islamic rule, then the state would provide to ensure that he doesn't become hungry or homeless. Having said that, if he has plenty of savings from his previous job that he doesn't need to be provided for by the state, then he can continue to live off his savings and sell his belongings until he finds another job and wouldn't necessarily automatically consider claiming benefit as his first option. There is a hadith in which a poor man complained that he had no money, so the Prophet (saw) advised him to sell his belongings and buy tools with which he could earn money. The man sold some utensils and bought an axe with which he chopped wood and sold it and was able to make a living. So whilst people would be provided for under Islamic rule, it's haram to beg and it's considered shameful for a young and healthy person to expect handouts rather than work to provide for himself. So the benefit would be considered a last resort after the person has exhausted other options of finding some other way to earn.

    Quote Originally Posted by aynina View Post
    With that 2.5% of someones savings? Imagine it would be €1200 a year one saved, €30 goes to the state, how is that enough to pay those individual people (of which many dont work and cant save but also some save more) a stipend, plus pay the khalif (and his assistents prolly)

    It makes little sense

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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    venezuala has the most oil in the ground but thats like saying I have a million dollars in the bank and the bank is closed.

    having the most oil does not equate to having the most money,being able to get that oil out of the ground,refined and to market brings in the cash.
    Last edited by Samsandman; 30-10-17 at 04:34 PM.

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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Quote Originally Posted by aynina View Post
    Brother @Abu Kamel i honestly think ur not making any sense

    You didnt give a solution how to take care of the people living under the state
    Not every country operates the same way. Belgium is one example of a tiny country. Everyone country will operate (generate income) that is suitable for their environment. For example, China has lot of people so their main source of income is labor while Saudi has lot of oil so their main source of income is selling oil. Each countries have their own way of making money and the government creates money based on its people/source of income. So in China taxing people on income might be the best way for government to gain money. But in Saudi taxing people will not help because Oil is not linked to how many people work there, so taxing sell of oil or owning the oil facility will give government best income.

    remember not everything in a country, especially large country, is privet owned. government owns much of the land which can be used to generate income. Example, building rental apartment on government property can generate income that helps pay for roads. Owning natural resource of the country will help generate income. Taxing people on their salary is just one small way of generating income. Since there is no specific location we are talking about in this discussion it is hard to determine best way of generating money. Just know that everyone government tries to gain money and every nation has some source of generating income whether its government owned farmland or Swiss owned banks. Some countries are luckier than others but every country is surviving.

    As sister Neelu said, the welfare will be slightly different because under Islamic law people have rights to their basic needs which will be met in true Islamic nation but extra income for extravaganza life will not be supported. example unemployment benefit might be replaced with focus on finding that unemployed person a job instead of giving them money to survive.

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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Quote Originally Posted by Kya View Post
    Not every country operates the same way. Belgium is one example of a tiny country. Everyone country will operate (generate income) that is suitable for their environment. For example, China has lot of people so their main source of income is labor while Saudi has lot of oil so their main source of income is selling oil. Each countries have their own way of making money and the government creates money based on its people/source of income. So in China taxing people on income might be the best way for government to gain money. But in Saudi taxing people will not help because Oil is not linked to how many people work there, so taxing sell of oil or owning the oil facility will give government best income.

    remember not everything in a country, especially large country, is privet owned. government owns much of the land which can be used to generate income. Example, building rental apartment on government property can generate income that helps pay for roads. Owning natural resource of the country will help generate income. Taxing people on their salary is just one small way of generating income. Since there is no specific location we are talking about in this discussion it is hard to determine best way of generating money. Just know that everyone government tries to gain money and every nation has some source of generating income whether its government owned farmland or Swiss owned banks. Some countries are luckier than others but every country is surviving.

    As sister Neelu said, the welfare will be slightly different because under Islamic law people have rights to their basic needs which will be met in true Islamic nation but extra income for extravaganza life will not be supported. example unemployment benefit might be replaced with focus on finding that unemployed person a job instead of giving them money to survive.
    except this is an entirely false statement when you look at almost every khalifa after Muawiyah ra especially the ottomans. The "islamic" rulers had the most extravagant lifestyles that would make some modern billionaire playboys jealous.

    I've noticed that many people like to re-write islamic history in a perfect,glowing light. the rightly guided khalifat lasted less time than I've been alive after that corruption set in pretty quick and was mostly downhill till 1924 when the semblance of a khalifa officially ended, I say semblance as it can be argued that the rightful,legitimate khalifa ended centuries earlier but that's another discussion altogether.

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    Odan Abu julaybeeb's Avatar
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Quote Originally Posted by neelu View Post
    You're missing out so many key points in your calculations by focusing on how much tax revenue can come from low to medium incomes. Consider the fact that the top 1% of wealthiest people own 50% of the world's wealth. 2.5% of their wealth would amount to trillions which is more than enough to cover the costs of providing welfare for those listed in the Quran as entitled (ie the poor, disabled, wayfarer etc). I know you'll say maybe many of that 1% wont live under shariah, but my point still stands that when a small percentage is taken from the wealthy echelons of society, it translates into a huge amount which would be sufficient to help keep a country's services going. Even if we look at a few people in the next wealthiest 5%, they must earn obscene amounts that we can't even imagine and a lot of that money didn't come from their sweat or hard work, it came from either being landlords collecting huge rents like feudal lords, or it came from the hard work of their employees who barely get a subsistence wage whilst these people cream off the real wealth.

    Compare that with the western world, where the wealthiest corporations aren't paying tax, or they pay less than half of what they are supposed to due to tax evasion schemes. Never mind Starbucks or Vodafone, even most of parliament consists of millionaires who are involved in Panama/Caymen style evasion schemes to hide their wealth, whilst your average Joe on a low wage gets crushed by quantative easing that reduces the value of the money he has, government refusals to increase the minimum wage, paying a greater proportion of his wealth in tax compared to wealthy corporations and using "austerity" as an excuse to deprive him of services even more.

    Aside from that are the other taxes. The jizya tax is taken from non Muslims, then there's the kharaj tax which is a land tax, so kharaj would only affect people who are wealthy enough to own and use their land- again, it means the greater onus is on taking a higher amount of money from the wealthy to ensure fairer wealth distribution. In fact, under Islamic rule, if people don't make good use of the land, it's confiscated from them so that others can have the opportunity to put it to good use, so the land doesn't remain in the hands of a few wealthy elites.

    As someone else pointed out in an earlier post, according to hadith evidences, people living under Islamic rule have the right to food, clothing shelter. They also have the right to free utilities such as water and fuel. So the state is already taking care of a significant chunk of expenses. Riba would be banned so people wouldn't be crushed by riba based student debt or mortgages and the only loans they would accept wouldn't permit interest. National resources would not come under corporate/private ownership, which means Islamic rule would not allow a Nigeria type situation, whereby the average people live in poverty whilst a big multinational corporation makes all the money out of it's natural oil wealth.

    As for the welfare/benefits:

    - Islamic rule would provide for the sick and disabled

    - that includes those who are disabled by work related accidents (I'm guessing if company negligence caused the accident then the company would be forced to pay but if it were an unavoidable accident then the state would take responsibility- but that's just a guess)

    - As for child benefit and retirement; in Islam generally it is the family's responsibility to look after their children and their elderly, not dump their babies into nurseries whilst the parents go back to work and leave their elders in an old people's home. Of course there are circumstances in which sending a relative to a home may be unavoidable (such as needing 24hour specialised medical care that the family aren't qualified to provide), but that should be the exception not the norm. The fact that women have a choice in whether to work or not (and are encouraged to stay home once they have children) makes it easier for children and elders to be taken care of by family. There is also a line in Quran which translates as "give the breastfeeding women their wage", meaning there's responsibility upon the husband to give his wife money whilst she's rearing young children (and therefore not in a position to work). I don't know if child benefits or pensions would exist under an Islamic system or not cos' a lot of the onus on taking care of children and elders is placed on the family rather than the state. The state would assist in other areas though such as medical care, or if an elder parent is blind, providing an assistant to be a guide and so on so that the family are not left to struggle with every responsibility on their own

    - yearly vacation: I don't know if there was such a thing as yearly vacations under Islamic rule. I know that the two Eids are considered national holidays and that Fridays are also taken as a day off every week. Beyond that I don't know if there were other provisions for vacation time

    - unemployment benefit: If a person under Islamic rule is poor and destitute under Islamic rule, then the state would provide to ensure that he doesn't become hungry or homeless. Having said that, if he has plenty of savings from his previous job that he doesn't need to be provided for by the state, then he can continue to live off his savings and sell his belongings until he finds another job and wouldn't necessarily automatically consider claiming benefit as his first option. There is a hadith in which a poor man complained that he had no money, so the Prophet (saw) advised him to sell his belongings and buy tools with which he could earn money. The man sold some utensils and bought an axe with which he chopped wood and sold it and was able to make a living. So whilst people would be provided for under Islamic rule, it's haram to beg and it's considered shameful for a young and healthy person to expect handouts rather than work to provide for himself. So the benefit would be considered a last resort after the person has exhausted other options of finding some other way to earn.
    Child benefit will exist
    Umar ra paid people when their kids stopped weaning
    Kharag also came from umar ra

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    Senior Member neelu's Avatar
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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post
    Child benefit will exist
    Umar ra paid people when their kids stopped weaning
    Kharag also came from umar ra
    Thanks for the clarification- I didn't know about that. Whilst Islamic rule puts certain taxes etc in place to ensure fairer distribution of wealth, Samsandman is right that several khulafa were leading extravagant lifestyles. Fairer distribution of wealth does not mean it turned into a communist style system and Islamic rule is not utopian (no form of rule in the dunya is utopian) cos' even with Islamic rule, we'd still be in the dunya, it wont become jannah. There were still very wealthy people around and there were still people around on lower incomes as well, but at least those on lower incomes had these safety nets to prevent them from becoming hungry and/or homeless and prevent them from the entrapment of riba based debt, prevents them from the traps of intoxicants as well (most of these things are cited as significant factors that cause people to turn to crime in the first place). Islam is not inherently against wealth anyway, so it would be wrong to point fingers at people for being wealthy- rather Islam is against people hoarding and amassing wealth whilst there are people in their society going hungry or unable to afford medical care etc or that sort of thing.

    It would be incorrect to call the rulers "semblance of khilafah" as they were still khulafa and don't respond by giving a long list of their errors as "proof they're not really khulafa" because their bad decisions don't stop them from being Islamic rulers. They were still implementing shariah according to their own understanding, even if their understanding was flawed- though it would be fair to say that they do not fall under the category of "rightly guided" khulafa due to their mistakes and misunderstandings. If the symbolic "semblance of khalifa" as you call it were so insignificant to the global ummah, the kufaar would not have fought tooth and nail to destroy and dismantle the Islamic state and place every type of obstacle in terms of national borders, puppet rulers, prevent schemes, hijab bans and direct military invasions to prevent it's re-establishment. Ghar ki murghi daal barabar.

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    Re: Social security in an islamic state

    Quote Originally Posted by neelu View Post
    Thanks for the clarification- I didn't know about that. Whilst Islamic rule puts certain taxes etc in place to ensure fairer distribution of wealth, Samsandman is right that several khulafa were leading extravagant lifestyles. Fairer distribution of wealth does not mean it turned into a communist style system and Islamic rule is not utopian (no form of rule in the dunya is utopian) cos' even with Islamic rule, we'd still be in the dunya, it wont become jannah. There were still very wealthy people around and there were still people around on lower incomes as well, but at least those on lower incomes had these safety nets to prevent them from becoming hungry and/or homeless and prevent them from the entrapment of riba based debt, prevents them from the traps of intoxicants as well (most of these things are cited as significant factors that cause people to turn to crime in the first place). Islam is not inherently against wealth anyway, so it would be wrong to point fingers at people for being wealthy- rather Islam is against people hoarding and amassing wealth whilst there are people in their society going hungry or unable to afford medical care etc or that sort of thing.

    It would be incorrect to call the rulers "semblance of khilafah" as they were still khulafa and don't respond by giving a long list of their errors as "proof they're not really khulafa" because their bad decisions don't stop them from being Islamic rulers. They were still implementing shariah according to their own understanding, even if their understanding was flawed- though it would be fair to say that they do not fall under the category of "rightly guided" khulafa due to their mistakes and misunderstandings. If the symbolic "semblance of khalifa" as you call it were so insignificant to the global ummah, the kufaar would not have fought tooth and nail to destroy and dismantle the Islamic state and place every type of obstacle in terms of national borders, puppet rulers, prevent schemes, hijab bans and direct military invasions to prevent it's re-establishment. Ghar ki murghi daal barabar.
    You had the 4 khulafa rashideen who ruled by Islam with near perfection
    Then the ummayad khilafa where kingship occured yes true some rulers abused their power but they still ruled by sharia it was still an islamic state
    Umar ibn abdul aziz the great grandson of umar ra known as the 5th rightly guided khalifa also was in this time was a mujadid of islam and brought back true islam in the ummayad times
    In abbaaasid khilafa same thing happened abuse of power
    But still an islamic state under sharia fully
    Its better to live in am islamic state under sharia for one day then to live in darul kufr for 100 years


    Hadith of prophet
    First there will be prophet hood then there will be rightly guided khilafa then there will be kingship then there will be dictatorship then there will be khilafa on the path of prophethood
    (The wording may be alittle diff as i didnt write it word for word)

    But we are on the last stage now

 

 

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