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  1. #1

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    Literacy in Islam

    I believe my first attempted post was "blocked" for some reason. If Islam is true, then it should stand to any scrutiny without any obstacles.

    I have a question regarding the Shahada.

    If one of Allah's commandments was "Thou shalt not bear false witness" and the Shahada is essentially “I bear witness that there is no god but Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.”

    How do you reconcile the fact that you are bearing yourself as a witness to a dead man? Do you actually consider yourselves as a "witness" to Muhammad? Does it not seem strange to you that Allah inscribed these commandments in stone, as if to suggest, they are solid as stone and you absolutely can not break them?

    Finally, if Allah were to ask for your proof from only your own personal life experience(not the Qur'an or your own authorities) that Muhammad is the final prophet, or let alone that he was a real person, what would you submit?

    Peace.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    "How do you reconcile the fact that you are bearing yourself witness to a dead man?" You are not that different from me. Don't you bear witness to history and the people that came before you were born? I read the Quran and I cannot find a better logical explanation of reality than it.

    Do you actually consider yourselves as a "witness" to Muhammad? Yes.

    Does it not seem strange to you that Allah inscribed these commandments in stone, as if to suggest, they are solid as stone and you absolutely can not break them? No. I gave this explanation to a person before you:

    The reason why I am Muslim is because I cannot find a better logical explanation of reality than that of the Quran. I recommend you to the read the Quran to see if you will come to the same conclusion.The Quran is not based on blind faith but it asks you to think throughout the 114 chapters.

    Islam is based on one statement, that there is no God at all except Allah. In Arabic, there are two words for God, Allah refers only to the Creator of the heavens and the earth. I can never be an atheist because something cannot come from nothing, "Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]?"(Surah 52:35).

    I cannot never be a polytheist because the Creator has to be different than everything else(Surah 112). Also if there was more than one God: "Allah has not taken any son, nor has there ever been with Him any deity. [If there had been], then each deity would have taken what it created, and some of them would have sought to overcome others. Exalted is Allah above what they describe [concerning Him]."(Surah 23:91).

    "Finally, if Allah were to ask for your proof from only your own personal life experience(not the Qur'an or your own authorities) that Muhammad is the final prophet, or let alone that he was a real person, what would you submit?" Nothing since I never met him. I judge Muhammad(peace be upon him) by the Quran. There is no doubt that the Quran goes back to Muhammad(peace be upon him), we have thousands of chain of narrations that bear witness to that fact. If you doubt Muhammad(peace be upon him) being a real person then you have to doubt everyone that came before you.
    Last edited by Calender121438; 15-09-17 at 04:04 AM.

  3. #3
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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    We are not bearing witness that we have seen him (sallaho alayhi wa sallam) we are bearing witness he was a messenger from Allah. You don't need to have seen him to state this when the evidence has been preserved mainly in the Quran but also in his sunnah

    I don't see your issue with this

    As for your other question my experience to believe in his messengership would be the good and benefit I have experienced in my own life from following his (sallaho alayhi wa sallam) teachings. Alhamdulilah Allah blessed me to turn my life around from the huge mess I'd made of it before becoming a muslim
    It may not be easy, you may not understand it, but you need to have the Imaan to trust Allah when life doesn't make sense.
    "Whoever intends eternal happiness, then let him hold tight to the threshold of servitude.” ibn Taymiyyah.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Calender121438 View Post
    "How do you reconcile the fact that you are bearing yourself witness to a dead man?" You are not that different from me. Don't you bear witness to history and the people that came before you were born? I read the Quran and I cannot find a better logical explanation of reality than it.

    Do you actually consider yourselves as a "witness" to Muhammad? Yes.

    Does it not seem strange to you that Allah inscribed these commandments in stone, as if to suggest, they are solid as stone and you absolutely can not break them? No. I gave this explanation to a person before you:

    The reason why I am Muslim is because I cannot find a better logical explanation of reality than that of the Quran. I recommend you to the read the Quran to see if you will come to the same conclusion.The Quran is not based on blind faith but it asks you to think throughout the 114 chapters.

    I have read it and I can agree that it provides a lens through which to perceive creation which (seemingly) explains many things. But I would hold that the way things seem are not the way things actually are; that is to say, if someone constructed the reality itself to "appear" the way it does (creating the problem) and simultaneously offering the solution to that problem (religion) then they hold all the power because they are making people see something that is entirely based on what the empire itself has created. This is how governments attain power. This is just the problem with religion that people do not see. To give an example the problem is not the Jews; they always fabricate religion. The problem is people who believe them. If the people didn't believe them, the Jews would not have any power in the world. This is why Islam shares a foundation with Judaism and Christianity; it's all part of the same machine creating perpetual conflict instigated by deception.

    Islam is based on one statement, that there is no God at all except Allah. In Arabic, there are two words for God, Allah refers only to the Creator of the heavens and the earth. I can never be an atheist because something cannot come from nothing, "Or were they created by nothing, or were they the creators [of themselves]?"(Surah 52:35).

    I understand that Islam recognizes one God; but in the same manner, a scientist can recognize (and prove) that the universe is actually only one energy without associating anything else to it. They need not then become indoctrinated by empire-based "religions". It is the very outcomes of empire-based religions which the athiest is looking at and seeing quite clearly that religious institutions are the cause for much of the suffering of the world. Indeed if you are a religious person (Christian/Jew/Muslim), you are being told the problem is elsewhere and you are part of the solution. The athiest sees religion as the problem because it has no stake in it (not invested) and sees it for what it really is. Do you see how that works?

    I cannot never be a polytheist because the Creator has to be different than everything else(Surah 112). Also if there was more than one God: "Allah has not taken any son, nor has there ever been with Him any deity. [If there had been], then each deity would have taken what it created, and some of them would have sought to overcome others. Exalted is Allah above what they describe [concerning Him]."(Surah 23:91).

    The teachings of Isa Ibn Maryam never contained polytheism; Christianity takes the concept Isa taught and placed the name "trinity" on it: that The Father(1) is in Christ(2) who is in you(3). It's one straight line marked by three separate junction points; but essentially it means Christ is in each person like a seed and he/she must turn within themselves in order to find it. That is "Christ". The Christians started worshipping Jesus/Isa (the man) as God in the flesh due to their authorities turning the teachings over onto its head; your religion teaches you that Iblis always makes things look like the opposite as they really are. This is an example, but Iblis is just a concept used to describe the deception of false institutions.


    "Finally, if Allah were to ask for your proof from only your own personal life experience(not the Qur'an or your own authorities) that Muhammad is the final prophet, or let alone that he was a real person, what would you submit?" Nothing since I never met him. I judge Muhammad(peace be upon him) by the Quran. There is no doubt that the Quran goes back to Muhammad(peace be upon him), we have thousands of chain of narrations that bear witness to that fact. If you doubt Muhammad(peace be upon him) being a real person then you have to doubt everyone that came before you.
    This is a matter of what you're willing to believe and on what grounds; it's local to each individual so I can't comment further.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
    We are not bearing witness that we have seen him (sallaho alayhi wa sallam) we are bearing witness he was a messenger from Allah. You don't need to have seen him to state this when the evidence has been preserved mainly in the Quran but also in his sunnah

    I don't see your issue with this

    To bear witness is not to simply say you "saw" them. To bear witness is to hold an assertion as true based on your direct witness account of it. For example to can bear witness that the teachings of Isa are true because it places Christ in each individual relative to their own experience. If course it must be true; I witness my own "Christ" when I read and comprehend his teachings (which requires literacy). This is why Muhammad (by necessity) must have been illiterate; he is the example to serve to humanity what happens if you are illiterate and can't grasp it for yourself. There are no "good" or "bad" prophets in the narrative, just "examples". This is why your religious institutions jump to create a religion whenever a messenger comes; but they only contort the truth, not provide it.

    As for your other question my experience to believe in his messengership would be the good and benefit I have experienced in my own life from following his (sallaho alayhi wa sallam) teachings. Alhamdulilah Allah blessed me to turn my life around from the huge mess I'd made of it before becoming a muslim
    I can't comment on what is your own life experience; I can say in my own life experience I was born free from any oppression/forced religion. Now I did go my own way in my childhood and did stupid things; it it is that very freedom which allowed me to discover more about myself and my relationship to creation itself.

    Thank you for your answers.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    I can say in my own life experience I was born free from any oppression/forced religion.
    This sounds like a misguided belief. Religion is the law, and the law is religion. You were not born free from any law. They also enforced the law in your life experience. There is always a law. If you do not seek protection under the law of the Almighty, it will be the law of Satan that will govern your life, even from birth.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by pronorah View Post
    This sounds like a misguided belief. Religion is the law, and the law is religion. You were not born free from any law. They also enforced the law in your life experience. There is always a law. If you do not seek protection under the law of the Almighty, it will be the law of Satan that will govern your life, even from birth.
    For the sake of argument I am going to agree with this, but I will try to clarify my meaning of oppression/forced religion.

    When I say oppression/forced religion I simply mean a belief system which overtly teaches God. I was born into secularism; religion is offered in schools but not mandatory. The Bible was covered by employing teaching about the narratives within it; for example we learn the story of Moses pbuh and how it relates to our very lives within. They teach the narrative as symbolic narratives that hold personal meaning. They don't force you by trying to tell you exactly what God is outside of your personal relationship with "the Father" as Isa pbuh tried to describe to everyone. You must be one with "the Father" or creation itself in order to know life.

    Isa Ibn Maryam pbuh describes your boddy as a lamp; imagine a pawn chess piece on a chessboard - it can only see 9 squares of the 64 because it is only a pawn. He goes on to say you are the light of the world; your own "piece" is what grants your perception. That's why he describes "Christ" as within you. The Christians turned Isa/Jesus pbuh into God in the flesh and made idolatry of him.

    Isa Ibn Maryam pbuh taught how to become one with "the Father"; if your eye be single (you perceive a single Grandmaster) your body shall be filled with light (greater perception). As any yogi has been saying for thousands of years; in order to experience the divine you must enhance your perception.

    So yes there is a "law". That law is to be one with "the Father". And with respect to your religion, that law is above ALL. Your religious institutions; first Christianity, then Islam, are literally systematically suppressing these proper teachings and making you focus on other things, such as Muhammad pbuh the illiterate, the best example for all of mankind on how to die "fighting" for peace because you couldn't make sense of the narrative based on what others were telling you (you can't yourself read, this is why he was chosen); your narratives/fables are all derived by heretics who take away the keys for they enter not within themselves. While Muhammad pbuh was made victorious with terror, Isa Ibn Maryyam pbuh is always made victorious with truth, because he was one with "the Father". Here is another teaching:

    When Isa Ibn Maryam was approached by many followers he was often asked (more than once) how to get to the kingdom of heaven. He said when you learn to strip yourself naked before "the Father" and stand with no shame and live in abundance, it is then and only then.

    Of course Isa pbuh is referring to the first story; Genesis (Torah). Adam and Eve (pbut) were naked in the garden and they knew not shame. They were commanded not to eat from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. The serpent enters. Here your authoritarian teachers tell you the serpent was "evil" Satan Ibliss. You have already disobeyed God/Allah before even eating from the Tree itself! Allah is neutral; both good and evil combined in balance. The serpent is neutral; he merely tells you how to become "like" God/Allah; not God itself, not a God, not your own God, but "like" God which is to know good and evil, which is what makes God ... God! Don't you see? Only Allah knows good and evil because that's what makes him Allah. You know not good and evil compared to Allah at all times; this is eternal. You will never know Allah. But if you eat from the tree, and derive proper lesson/instruction, your life will blossom (tree of life) and become "like" Allah. If you eat from the tree, and don't derive lesson/instruction, you will die just as Allah warned you about! Do not all of the prophets (pbut) speak for Allah?

    It is details like these your authorities over-ride with their own made-up nonsense; out of respect to your religion you follow I won't go into them. I find when people are completely attached/identified with something, they take things personally which I don't intend; it is secularism which gives the atmosphere to discuss these things openly because we value every single person (man and women) equal; and Isa (pbuh) says judge not lest ye be judged until I return to perform judgment myself. That's when you realize Christ is you; he is not a man to physically return, it is your own return to "the Father" relative to your own life. That is the "second coming" which people are waiting for; red pill or blue pill, how well have your authorities hidden it from you that Christ is in you? The Romans too Isa and idolatried him. The Arabs (after Muhammad pbuh) started killing each other and erected Muhammad and idolatried him. Lies started forming all over the place and sold to make money. Your Hadith are collections of stories people invented to make money on the street. It was an entire business in those days.Your authorities are not sincere with Muhammad; Muhammad never told a lie, but they themselves lie to you constantly.

    Isa (pbuh) was the last direct witness of Allah being one with the Father. Muhammad (pbuh) was the seal of any "interaction" witness of Allah (Muhammad through Gabriel), lest each man become literate and understand Christ, they will not know themselves; how his teachings taught you to enter within yourself and be granted vision to witness the hypocrisy of your leaders for yourself; thus taking their power away from them, just as they take the keys away from you. It is all within you; to me I have my own which is no example unto you. Yours is specific to you. If life is a chess game (starting in equal material/neutral) and it's only you (student) and the very source of creation opposite you; such was the relationship of Isa pbuh to Allah; one with the Father, which is what he taught; you must enter within yourself. This is why "animal sacrifice" is first necessary; to sacrifice your own internal animal nature such as to imitate other things you see and identify with (idolatry). They who make these things physical sacrifices killing real animals are the liars and hypocrites; your religion has such traditions.

    Now when I say oppressed/forced religion, I'm talking about hypocritical Christianity erecting Isa as idolatry and telling people he physically healed the blind. It was his teachings that made people realize they find all the answers within themselves; they need not a teacher anymore but Allah. Allah is sufficient unto all matters; but do you eat from the tree without deriving lesson because you allow authorities to make you believe you know good and evil? Who do they tell you to hate? Jews? Jews provide an example of deception; it is up to Christ to judge for hypocrisy, which is in you. This whole geopolitical nonsense going on with Islam in the media is a reflection of the same problem distorting religion; hypocrisy creates deception, both in the physical and internally within you. The more of a hypocrite you are, the more the deceivers gain power. This is to fall to the hands of what you refer to as "Ibliss". He is the soul-eater for those who deny Christ; for Allah can not teach you if you are not paying attention to the cosmic game as a teacher and student relationship. Evolution is the natural progression of how "one with the Father" we become. Where you end up is a matter whether or not you enter within your self. Each to his own unique Christ.

    Please take time to reflect. If you reject this premise of Christ, then to me mine and to you yours. Satan/Ibliss has no hold on a true Christ-seeker. These words I speak have nothing to do with Christianity; it is a false institution and I am not a Christian. I am simply a piece of life, in the cosmos, witnessing my own alpha and omega; beginning and end, the same you are experiencing within you, and just as Isa said, that Father(1) is in Christ(2) is in you(3) as One.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    They don't force you by trying to tell you exactly what God is outside of your personal relationship with "the Father" as Isa pbuh tried to describe to everyone. You must be one with "the Father" or creation itself in order to know life.
    Jesus spoke about his father, who was (already) in heaven. If you count Jesus and his father, they are not two, because one is already in heaven. The count is obviously just one. By the way, Jesus never meant God with "the Father". According to the Gospel of Thomas (Nag Hammadi):

    44. Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

    You cannot blaspheme against God. So, in the terminology of Jesus, it is the holy spirit who is God.

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    So yes there is a "law". That law is to be one with "the Father".
    No, because the count of you and your father can only be one, when your father is dead already.

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    Isa Ibn Maryyam pbuh is always made victorious with truth, because he was one with "the Father".
    No, Jesus was a messenger of our beloved master, the illustrious Allah, not because the count of him and his deceased father were one, but because he was given the permission to perform miracles.

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    The Arabs (after Muhammad pbuh) started killing each other and erected Muhammad and idolatried him.
    No, the prophet, may he rest in peace, was a man. He has never been worshiped as a deity. He was a man with a special mission. He was a messenger of our beloved Master, Lord of both Worlds, the illustrious Allah. There is no worshiping the prophet in Islam. Only our beloved Master, the illustrious Allah, is worthy of worship.

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    Your Hadith are collections of stories people invented to make money on the street.
    No, the hadiths are testimonies by witnesses who narrate about what they saw when the messenger, may he rest in peace, was still alive.

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    Isa (pbuh) was the last direct witness of Allah being one with the Father.
    No, the count of Jesus and his deceased father was indeed one, because his deceased father was already with our beloved Master, the illustrious Allah.

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    Evolution is the natural progression of how "one with the Father" we become.
    No, the count of ourselves with our father only becomes one, when either our father dies, or we die. Otherwise, the count of ourselves with our father will be two.

  9. #9
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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    This is a matter of what you're willing to believe and on what grounds; it's local to each individual so I can't comment further.
    1) "I have read it and I can agree that it provides a lens through which to perceive creation which (seemingly) explains many things. But I would hold that the way things seem are not the way things actually are"

    We should not base life on assumptions, but we should take things as they are. This is the delusion of atheism, they want to believe something came from nothing.

    "If someone constructed the reality itself to "appear" the way it does (creating the problem) and simultaneously offering the solution to that problem (religion)"

    It depends on whom that someone is. If that someone is the Creator of the heavens and earth then we should listen. One of the things that I love about Islam is its concept of God. It does not tell you to worship a man or idols and it tells that the Creator resembles no one:

    A) "There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing." Surah 42:11

    Islam is the natural state(fitrah) of human beings:

    B) And when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware." Surah 7:172

    C) So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know. (Surah 30:30)

    This explains why even hardcore atheists like Richard Dawkins call upon God when they are in distress: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv2U2Xp2Nu8

    D) But when there came to them Our visible signs, they said, "This is obvious magic." And they rejected them, while their [inner] selves were convinced thereof, out of injustice and haughtiness. So see how was the end of the corrupters. (Surah 27:13-14).

    E) We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness? (Surah 41:53).

    2) This is a challenge to you, give me something that is better than the Quran:

    A) Say, "Then bring a scripture from Allah which is more guiding than either of them(Quran and the original Torah) that I may follow it, if you should be truthful." But if they do not respond to you - then know that they only follow their [own] desires. And who is more astray than one who follows his desire without guidance from Allah ? Indeed, Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people. (Surah 28:49-50).

    3) Science explains the how of things, not why. Muslims like Ibn al-Haytham contributed a lot to it. Islam is not against science, it encourages it. For example:

    A) Then do they not look at the camels - how they are created? And at the sky - how it is raised? And at the mountains - how they are erected? And at the earth - how it is spread out? (Surah 88: 17-20).

    4) "It is the very outcomes of empire-based religions which the atheist is looking at and seeing quite clearly that religious institutions are the cause for much of the suffering of the world."

    This is not true. An atheist has no problem with secularism yet take at look at the 20th century colonialism, wars, and the modern day war on terrorism, which countries bomb and invade other countries?
    Last edited by Calender121438; 16-09-17 at 04:17 PM.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by pronorah View Post
    Jesus spoke about his father, who was (already) in heaven. If you count Jesus and his father, they are not two, because one is already in heaven. The count is obviously just one. By the way, Jesus never meant God with "the Father". According to the Gospel of Thomas (Nag Hammadi):

    44. Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

    You cannot blaspheme against God. So, in the terminology of Jesus, it is the holy spirit who is God.

    To deny Christ as within you is to deny the Father, which is to deny your own self. Did you not read Jesus say lest any man deny himself and take his cross daily and follow me?

    No, because the count of you and your father can only be one, when your father is dead already.

    I'm not sure what use of the word "father" you are using here. Jesus spoke Aramaic which had very few words; he chose "father" for what it implies; one who teaches, nurtures, disciplines, guides etc. This is creation. This is why Jesus said your eye must be single; that is to perceive all of creation as happening within yourself. The father is not "dead".

    No, Jesus was a messenger of our beloved master, the illustrious Allah, not because the count of him and his deceased father were one, but because he was given the permission to perform miracles.

    Jesus did not perform real miracles; these are corruptions from Romans.

    No, the prophet, may he rest in peace, was a man. He has never been worshiped as a deity. He was a man with a special mission. He was a messenger of our beloved Master, Lord of both Worlds, the illustrious Allah. There is no worshiping the prophet in Islam. Only our beloved Master, the illustrious Allah, is worthy of worship.

    Here is where literacy comes in; if you do not understand how idolatry works in the mind (as per Moses) and don't understand how your treatment of Muhammad is idolatry, you have not understood lesson which came before. Your prostrations toward the kaaba is based on pagan tradition, your treatment of the Qur'an as perfect word of God is idolatry, treating Muhammad as the best example for all of mankind is idolatry etc. This is why the animal sacrifice before Christ is necessary; imitation is an animal quality, and idolatry operates on this animal nature, thus the need for animal sacrifice. These lessons regarding idolatry came before Muhammad and as such only a literate person can understand them. This is why God/Allah chose an illiterate man; as an example on to humanity what happens when you try to deduce the narrative through other people and not yourself. He knew it not Christ is within you because he couldn't read.

    No, the hadiths are testimonies by witnesses who narrate about what they saw when the messenger, may he rest in peace, was still alive.

    You are succumb to your authorities and as such they have hijacked your intellect.

    No, the count of Jesus and his deceased father was indeed one, because his deceased father was already with our beloved Master, the illustrious Allah.

    No, the count of ourselves with our father only becomes one, when either our father dies, or we die. Otherwise, the count of ourselves with our father will be two.

    This sounds to me like you are confused.
    This is the example for humanity to understand why an illiterate man can not comprehend the narrative. That's the example Muhammad provided. Your authorities started attributing things such as best example, sexual strength of many men, many wives (status) etc. It's all deception; you would perceive it if your eye was single but you perceive it not.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Calender121438 View Post
    1) "I have read it and I can agree that it provides a lens through which to perceive creation which (seemingly) explains many things. But I would hold that the way things seem are not the way things actually are"

    We should not base life on assumptions, but we should take things as they are. This is the delusion of atheism, they want to believe something came from nothing.

    "If someone constructed the reality itself to "appear" the way it does (creating the problem) and simultaneously offering the solution to that problem (religion)"

    It depends on whom that someone is. If that someone is the Creator of the heavens and earth then we should listen. One of the things that I love about Islam is its concept of God. It does not tell you to worship a man or idols and it tells that the Creator resembles no one:

    A) "There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing." Surah 42:11

    Islam is the natural state(fitrah) of human beings:

    B) And when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware." Surah 7:172

    C) So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know. (Surah 30:30)

    This explains why even hardcore atheists like Richard Dawkins call upon God when they are in distress: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hv2U2Xp2Nu8

    D) But when there came to them Our visible signs, they said, "This is obvious magic." And they rejected them, while their [inner] selves were convinced thereof, out of injustice and haughtiness. So see how was the end of the corrupters. (Surah 27:13-14).

    E) We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness? (Surah 41:53).

    2) This is a challenge to you, give me something that is better than the Quran:

    A) Say, "Then bring a scripture from Allah which is more guiding than either of them(Quran and the original Torah) that I may follow it, if you should be truthful." But if they do not respond to you - then know that they only follow their [own] desires. And who is more astray than one who follows his desire without guidance from Allah ? Indeed, Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people. (Surah 28:49-50).

    3) Science explains the how of things, not why. Muslims like Ibn al-Haytham contributed a lot to it. Islam is not against science, it encourages it. For example:

    A) Then do they not look at the camels - how they are created? And at the sky - how it is raised? And at the mountains - how they are erected? And at the earth - how it is spread out? (Surah 88: 17-20).

    4) "It is the very outcomes of empire-based religions which the atheist is looking at and seeing quite clearly that religious institutions are the cause for much of the suffering of the world."

    This is not true. An atheist has no problem with secularism yet take at look at the 20th century colonialism, wars, and the modern day war on terrorism, which countries bomb and invade other countries?
    See this is all stemming from a misunderstanding of God's first commandment to man: do not eat from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. The secular scientists are obeying the command of God by "eating from any tree" they desire. They live their lives in pursuit of what they wish to contribute to humanity (Abel; first of flock; abundance). Here is a quote from Einstein:

    Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind.

    This is a perfectly balanced equation: if you pursue your religious beliefs without measuring them against science, you are blind. If you pursue science without asking why, this is a lame existence. If you are going to state that the Qur'an does not reject science, then you must also understand that many stories in the Qur'an are (provably) lifted from pre-existing Syro-Aramaic liturgical texts that were in circulation. This is proven in the Qur'an itself (if you have the eyes to see) because many stories are retold in different ways with different details. Only the literate man will see this. There are even stories which have been translated improperly; all of this is proven if you undergo honest intellectual pursuit. It is as such the Qur'an is not any product of divine original; this is a lesson on what happens when you treat it as such, which is a natural consequence of idolatry. The moment you are willing to label something (such as secularism) inherently evil, you are breaking God's first commandment. Even people who say the serpent is Ibliss (evil) they too are breaking the same initial commandment; indeed, God and the serpent are both neutral.

    This is why Islam is stagnated; there is not equal effort to juxtapose science with religion in Islam. Indeed, if anyone publishes the obvious errors of the Qur'an, they are liable to be killed because Islam is no different from fascism. By labeling other humans beings as "infidels" that are less than human, simply because they do not follow Islam due to such reasons as above, and treating your book as the word of God which states to kill these infidels under certain circumstances, this is fascism and has caused perpetual hatred and divisiveness not only within Islam itself for 1400 years, but to the rest of the world. You have the Qur'an, and 1400 years of human history that followed for your "test". Life is a question and answers game; are you the one who thinks they have the answers, or the one constantly asking questions? That's why any yogi (Jesus taught yoga by the way if you didn't comprehend the teachings) never, ever identifies with what he/she knows, or thinks they know. They only identify with what they do not know, because what you do not know is where all possibilities are present. This is how evolution works. Islam closes the door by saying the Qur'an is the final word. It is the final word for those who are illiterate and can not progress further, but the example of Muhammad is your proof of how it ends; perpetual conflict.

    Believing you have a special mission to eradicate "unbelievers" is a sick ideology and no different than Nazi-ism; but indeed, this is how it was all designed: to collapse people into "beds" and make them perform bad deeds thinking they are sanctioned by "God" whereby those very beliefs that you are supported by "God" only arise from fundamental disregard for that which came before. The God of Abraham narrative is an illustration of how one becomes progressively hypocritical, ending with Muhammad who could not read for himself and tried to make sense only by what other people told him. That is why the Muslim is locked into an eternal struggle; even for Muhammad, the fighting never ended and he suffered until the very end. He left not ownership of the caliphate because the example is meant to show what would happen under a single fascist caliphate; rivaling families will keep killing each other for power. This is your Sunni-Shia split which, if Islam were a true religion of peace, would have never happened. This is an example on to Muslims what awaits them if they do not become literate and understand the narrative in its entirety; perpetual bloodshed. Your authorities have prepared for you an "enemy" to blame the problems of the world on. This is the tactic the Jews have been employing for thousands of years, and you are succumb to them.

    It is as such I do not share your views above but do wish you well in searching for the truth. If you believe Isa is going to physically return to the world and establish Islam for the whole of humanity, you are deceived. The return of Christ either happens within you, or it does not. Why do you think "infidel" nations have made such movies such as the Matrix? The whole of creation is simply code and a hologram; it's not real. Either you enter within yourself and engage with Christ on an internal level, or you continue to live on this planet being deceived by your authorities. That's the red pill blue pill choice every man faces; to deny Christ or enter in the narrow gate. It is only a literate person which has the ability to read the entire narrative, start to finish, reflect, and realize Christ is within. This is what you would refer to as "the great deception"; to not understand/realize that Christ is within.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    This is the example for humanity to understand why an illiterate man can not comprehend the narrative. That's the example Muhammad provided. Your authorities started attributing things such as best example, sexual strength of many men, many wives (status) etc. It's all deception; you would perceive it if your eye was single but you perceive it not.
    How many are "John and Carl and Alex"? They are three.
    How many are "John and Carl"? They are two.
    How many are "John"? They are one.
    If Alex is dead, how many are "John and Carl and Alex"? They are two.
    If Jesus' father is dead, how many are "Jesus and the father"? They are one.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by pronorah View Post
    How many are "John and Carl and Alex"? They are three.
    How many are "John and Carl"? They are two.
    How many are "John"? They are one.
    If Alex is dead, how many are "John and Carl and Alex"? They are two.
    If Jesus' father is dead, how many are "Jesus and the father"? They are one.
    I'm sorry but you seem to be missing the entire concept here. Allow me to try to explain the concept of trinity. As you read this, please understand that Romans/Christians completely corrupted the idea of the trinity; they make it appear as something it is not. Indeed Muhammad made attempt to clarify this, but he was illiterate and could not read it directly for himself.

    Isa declares himself, alone, as just one man. Thus he is placing himself at the exact same level as the common man. There is but one difference; Isa is the embodiment of the concept of "Christ" which is an internal seed planted in and among every man. However, Isa goes on to say that he and the Father are "one" and that nobody comes to the father except through him.

    Now please understand; Christ is internal. It's not a man. Isa is portraying himself as "the Christ" which is also within you. Please see: (1)The Father is in (2)Christ is in (3)you. Currently you do not have Christ. But to enter within yourself, you engage in your own "Christ" which is the only way to the "Father". Thus it is all one process; you enter within yourself to become one with the Father in "Christ". It is all one process.

    This is why the "second coming" of Christ is a local event; it happens within you. If you deny Christ (do not enter within yourself), you deny the Father because you did not understand/apply the concept properly. This is why God had to choose an illiterate man as the seal of all prophets; he is the living example of one who does not understand the concept of Christ; that's why he died in endless struggle.

    That's why I keep stating your authorities are keeping away the key from you by making idolatry from Muhammad; do you see the irony?

    Look; God promises you a life free from oppression if you follow the ten commandments. That's the covenant. He will give you a life free from all oppression IF and only IF you "understand" and "follow" the laws which were carved in stone by God himself. One of them was to never bear yourself witness to anything you do not directly perceive; the shahada violates this commandment which is what opens the door for such things as idolatry, killing, mistreating others etc. which all causes oppression. The ten commandments are meant to protect you from all forms of oppression, but if you break them without realizing it (eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil without deriving your lesson), you will die. However, if you eat from the tree and derive lesson, you become "like" God; to know good and evil. You will thus perceive all religion as forms of oppression and avoid them, because it is your own mistakes which gives rise to that very oppression (you perceive the problem as Jews/unbelievers/the West etc.) making you your own free person under the direct protection of Allah. If you understand the narrative (literacy), apply the rules, you will not be touched by anyone or anything. This is how God/Allah teaches. This is how evolution works (you evolved from more primitive hominid). God did not create you as a human; you evolved from animal which is why inner animal sacrifice is necessary. If you go to a zoo and make a face at a monkey, it makes a face back at you by imitating. Thus imitation is an animal trait. Idolatry exploits this inner animal trait; they tell you an example (Jesus or Muhammad) and tell you to imitate them. This is idolatry. This is part of the lesson you have to learn. If you deny this lesson, you will continue to face oppression because these lessons are necessary in order to evolve further.

    So the concept of "one with the Father" means you entered into your own Christ; that's it. There is no three; there is only one. There is no "dead" father. I don't even understand how you could say Jesus' father is dead. His father and your father are the same father; creation itself. If the father were "dead" you wouldn't be here perceiving creation. That's what Jesus meant by "father".

    I hope this clarifies.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    I believe my first attempted post was "blocked" for some reason. If Islam is true, then it should stand to any scrutiny without any obstacles.

    I have a question regarding the Shahada.

    If one of Allah's commandments was "Thou shalt not bear false witness" and the Shahada is essentially “I bear witness that there is no god but Allah, and I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.”

    How do you reconcile the fact that you are bearing yourself as a witness to a dead man? Do you actually consider yourselves as a "witness" to Muhammad? Does it not seem strange to you that Allah inscribed these commandments in stone, as if to suggest, they are solid as stone and you absolutely can not break them?

    Finally, if Allah were to ask for your proof from only your own personal life experience(not the Qur'an or your own authorities) that Muhammad is the final prophet, or let alone that he was a real person, what would you submit?

    Peace.
    Peace be upon those who receive guidance,

    This shows you have zero understanding of the Shahada,

    The Shahada states we believe in only one who is worthy of worship (Allah عز و جل) and Rasul صلى الله عليه و سلم is his messenger

    It doesn't mean we are physically standing there watching either of them.

    Personal life experiences are subjective, this what Christians play on.

    The proof for Islam are definitive, from the Qur'an and Sunnah of the messenger صلى الله عليه و سلم

    Never heard of a sensible argument from a Christian,

    Now they are asking us to use "personal experiences" to justify the existence of people

    Facepalm
    http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

    "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

    – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    However, Isa goes on to say that he and the Father are "one" ...
    Which is correct, because his father was dead. So, they are not two, but one.
    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    Now please understand; Christ is internal. It's not a man.
    No, that is contradictory. He is called the "son of man" or the "son of a man", which is always again a man. The son of a cat is also again a cat.
    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    you enter within yourself to become one with the Father in "Christ". It is all one process.
    No, that procedure is too complicated. I cannot imagine that anybody could find it attractive.
    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    That's why I keep stating your authorities are keeping away the key from you by making idolatry from Muhammad; do you see the irony?
    The authorities in Islam are a set of books only: The Quran and its practical application in the Sunnah. There is no Papacy in Islam. The clergy only help the believers with provably deriving rulings from these books. Furthermore, there is no idolatry or deification of the prophet in Islam. You may be confusing things with other religions.
    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    There is no "dead" father. I don't even understand how you could say Jesus' father is dead.
    Jesus prays for his father who is already in heaven. So, that means that his father is dead, no? Furthermore, how can the count of Jesus and his father be one, if both of them were still alive? In that case, the count would be two.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    Peace be upon those who receive guidance,

    This shows you have zero understanding of the Shahada,

    The Shahada states we believe in only one who is worthy of worship (Allah عز و جل) and Rasul صلى الله عليه و سلم is his messenger

    It doesn't mean we are physically standing there watching either of them.

    The Shahada is not a belief statement, it is a witness statement. There is a difference. Bearing yourself as witness to something doesn't require you "physically" witness it at all, it simply requires you call yourself a witness to something. The moment you call yourself a witness to something that is not in your direct experience, you are opening yourself to a whole host of potential problems, which is why the commandment was issues in stone. Again, this is a comprehension/literacy problem.


    Personal life experiences are subjective, this what Christians play on.

    The proof for Islam are definitive, from the Qur'an and Sunnah of the messenger صلى الله عليه و سلم

    So, if you read the very first story of all of scripture, it tells you that your life experience is subjective and relative to you, if you are literate and understand it. If you proclaim yourself as witness and use the Qur'an / life story of the prophet as "proof", this is still subjective.

    Never heard of a sensible argument from a Christian,

    Now they are asking us to use "personal experiences" to justify the existence of people

    I am not a Christian; but "personal experience" is all you have in this world. That's why Isa taught you must be one with the father in order to perceive things just the way they are, and not how you want them to be.


    Facepalm
    Now consider Genesis;

    God makes man from the clay, and tells man you can eat from any tree you so desire. He says do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil; you will surely die. Now the serpent enters and tells man you will not die, you will become "like" God, to know good and evil.

    Now your authorities try to convince you that the serpent is Satan / Ibliss and is evil. Do you see the problem here? God just forbade eating from the tree of good and evil, and you turn around and say the serpent is evil. This is the lesson which is supposed to teach you that whatever you call "good" and "evil" is your own internal "subjective experience". That's the duality at play in this mortal world; but there is a dilemma.

    How to know exactly "what" this tree is, if God doesn't explain it? It's like a mother telling a child "don't touch fire" and the child knows not why. So, in order for the child to learn why not, he/she touches fire. It is in this sense that the fall of man is inevitable; we are each fallen from birth. But to eat from this tree and understand why not to eat from it (don't touch fire because it burns) is the same thing as becoming "like" God; to know good and evil.

    That is the very first story at the base of all of the scriptures of the God of Abraham. This is why literacy is required; this is why God had to choose an illiterate man as the seal of the prophets; he could not read for himself and only went by what others told him. All of the stories in circulation orally at the time appear more than once in the Qur'an as proof that these stories all contained differences and contradictions. Muhammad even challenged people to find contradictions in it; indeed there are several. Once you see them you understand the role Muhammad had to play in the cosmic show. Your Qur'an contains stories which were already printed in pre-existing Syro-Aramaic liturgical texts that were scattered among different sects. The Qur'an and Muhammad, while they may indeed have been sent by "God" were sent for a reason, the vast majority of people don't recognize it because their authorities are telling them what is "good" and what is "evil" and, as I have been saying, they understand not that "Christ" is within them.

    That's why your experience necessarily must be subjective; it needs to be your own. Now if you want to believe the Qur'an is perfect, and Muhammad was real, God provided for you an example of what happens already. Upon the death of Muhammad, ownership of the caliphate was never discussed. This was done on purpose to allow humanity to see what happens; different rivaling families kill each other non-stop. You say Islam is a religion of peace, but it has not known peace since the death of Muhammad; it points the fingers at everyone and everything else as the problem (Jews, infidels, West) and feeds off of hatred and divisiveness. 1400 years of human history has been provided to humanity after the death of the final prophet; and those who continue to follow the "example" of Muhammad only fall into the same fate as he did; perpetual conflict. It is meant to be a lesson that you must be literate to make sense of things.

    This is all part of the "test" Muslims like to run around warning people about; but they perceive it not that it is a literacy test, much like you take in school in order to take more advanced courses. If you are illiterate and can't make sense of the story (Muhammad) you will forever be in perpetual conflict with the rest of the world, and Isa Ibn Maryam provided the only solution. As such there are two people on this planet; those who understand Isa (many are called, few are chosen) and those who do not (illiterate). Each individual (locally) owns that choice.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by pronorah View Post
    Which is correct, because his father was dead. So, they are not two, but one.

    No, that is contradictory. He is called the "son of man" or the "son of a man", which is always again a man. The son of a cat is also again a cat.

    No, that procedure is too complicated. I cannot imagine that anybody could find it attractive.

    The authorities in Islam are a set of books only: The Quran and its practical application in the Sunnah. There is no Papacy in Islam. The clergy only help the believers with provably deriving rulings from these books. Furthermore, there is no idolatry or deification of the prophet in Islam. You may be confusing things with other religions.

    Jesus prays for his father who is already in heaven. So, that means that his father is dead, no? Furthermore, how can the count of Jesus and his father be one, if both of them were still alive? In that case, the count would be two.
    I am going to make one last attempt to explain what Jesus meant by "the Father".

    The father is not a man. It is not a human. It is not a biological being. It is none of these things you keep trying to play numbers games with.

    Jesus spoke Aramaic; you choose words based on what they imply and the qualities they embody. For example "father" implies: one who teaches, nurtures, supports, raises, instructs, disciplines, guides, provides etc. etc. and the list goes on. Now let me ask you, which one of these can not be applied to Allah? How many names does Allah have? Jesus' use of the word "father" is simply in reference to "the instruction as provided directly from Allah".

    How does one know this? Jesus provides teachings: If your eye be single (you perceive everything as Allah) your body will be filled with light (perception). The single eye is not evil; it is your inner understanding that your whole experience being generated within you is in accordance to Allah. To "be one with" the father (Allah) is to simply acknowledge that you are paying absolute attention to creation, or "the Father".

    Imagine this similitude; there is a chessboard set equal in material. Allah is the cosmic Grandmaster seated on one side, you on the other. Now if you live your life unconsciously and do not pay direct attention to every single lesson the Grandmaster is providing for you, that's the same as eating from the tree but never learning your lesson (death). If you pay respect to the Grandmaster that he is there, it is only you and the Grandmaster (all else is irrelevant), and you pay absolute attention, that is to be "one with the Father".

    The father is not a person; Jesus' use of the word "father" is symbolic for Allah / creation itself. For you to say Jesus' father is "in heaven" and therefore dead is just a complete misunderstanding of the entire concept. Jesus says thus; he alone is just one man, but with the father he becomes the Christ. Um, hello? Single eye, treat all as Allah, Christ is within you. That's why there are only two people on this planet; those who understand the concept of Christ, and those who do not. If you are among them that believe Isa/Jesus is physically coming back to save you, you are deceived. Christ can only happen from within.

    There is no dead father. The father is all of creation as you perceive it. If you deny Christ (which is in yourself) you deny the father, which is actually what you and other posters in this thread are doing. I am not a Christian because once you understand Christ, you need not any religion. Why settle for other people filling your head with divisiveness nonsense when you have Allah itself teaching you? That's why Christ is the only, only, only way. Anything else is perpetual conflict, as 1400 years have tried to demonstrate to you. These religious institutions are build upon hypocrisy after hypocrisy after hypocrisy until they have you breaking almost every single commandment which was given in stone. They feed from your life energies as such because they who allowed them to. It's like someone stealing your watch and selling it back to you. Such is religion, including the current "Islam".

    The true Islam is one simple state of being: one with "the Father". Muhammad told you this; everyone is born a Muslim. Indeed they are. But what your authorities are telling you is "Muslim" and what Isa taught is "Muslim" are almost opposite one another; this is how hypocritical religious institutions mislead the masses to enrich themselves. There is only one Islam; one with the Father. No books, no teachers, no imams, no prophets, no mosques. It is you, and Allah, and that is it. Allah Himself is sufficient unto all matters.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    The Shahada in it's original Arabic form is أشهد أن لا إله إلاَّ الله و أشهد أن محمد رسول الله

    In here أشهد is what could mean "I bear witness", but it could also mean "I testify" and "testify", some of it's definitions is to give evidence as a witness. to make a statement based on personal knowledge or belief, or to serve as evidence or proof.

    Now we could argue about definitions to English words all day. But instead I'll tell you as a native Arabic speaker, it's intended meaning in Arabic is clear, and it is as previous repliers to this thread have described it to you. The declaration of believe and knowledge based on evidence, that evidence being the Quran in this case.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Hythem View Post
    The Shahada in it's original Arabic form is أشهد أن لا إله إلاَّ الله و أشهد أن محمد رسول الله

    In here أشهد is what could mean "I bear witness", but it could also mean "I testify" and "testify", some of it's definitions is to give evidence as a witness. to make a statement based on personal knowledge or belief, or to serve as evidence or proof.

    Now we could argue about definitions to English words all day. But instead I'll tell you as a native Arabic speaker, it's intended meaning in Arabic is clear, and it is as previous repliers to this thread have described it to you. The declaration of believe and knowledge based on evidence, that evidence being the Quran in this case.
    I think we're getting into semantics here; and as you pointed out, we could argue about translations which would get us nowhere.

    But if you are in a courtroom as a witness, instead of saying "I witnessed..." you say "my testimony is...", it is the same thing. If you are testifying that the Qur'an is the perfect word of God and Muhammad is his final prophet, that's still a testimony/witness statement.

    Now if your testimony is based on the Qur'an / sunnah, that's fine. There is nothing wrong with this. But consider the following:

    Let's say you die, and are brought into the judgment hall. You are called onto the witness stand. There is a blank projection screen which allows you to recall any life experience that is directly within your own experience, and it is displayed to the court for all to see. So whatever you recall within your living experience is projected onto this screen for all, including Allah, to see.

    Now when you say the Shahada, imagine God asks for proof that He sent the Qur'an. You can only use your own internal experience of life; not what other people told you. What do you present? Do you simply say "The Qur'an itself is proof that You sent it." This creates a fallacy; Allah is asking for your proof, you are using the assertion itself (Qur'an is from God) to prove that the Qur'an is from God. It creates an impasse.

    This is what I mean when the "I bear witness.." or "I testify.." commandment was written in stone. You can not break it under any circumstances unless it is a living reality for you. Now we can go even further and take Muhammad as an example; you testify that Muhammad is the final prophet. Allah says prove it. You're in the same boat; in your direct experience of life, Muhammad is not even a man in the flesh, but only an "image" within your mind. Your only perception of Muhammad is what others have told you. Now you go and seek evidence of the real man in the flesh "Muhammad" and discover there is none. The first reference to the man as a flesh man is the inscription on the dome. Indeed, details of the flesh man Muhammad didn't arise until hundreds of years later.

    Now Allah says to you "You accept all of this as sufficient basis for your proof" and you say "yes", then that is self-incriminating because none of it is actually at your experience. It is as such the Shahada is a self-incriminating cosmic indictment based on your own willingness to accept such weak evidence. That is why the commandment was given to people who desired a land free of oppression, and was written in stone. If you do not understand the importance of it, and how by breaking it you are inviting forces (religion) to hijack your mind and cause you oppression, it is your own doing. Consider this:

    Iblis to Allah: "I bet you I can make people testify/witness a dead man with no reliable evidence he even existed."
    Allah to Iblis: "Such people merely invite their own delusions; take them then lest they understand the error of their own ways."

    That's exactly what's happening with any religion which requires you to "testify" to something outside of your experience. If you are saying that there are sufficient experiences within your own life that "proves" the testimony, that's a matter of what you are willing to accept as evidence, which is entirely personal. There is evidence that the Qur'an contains stories already circulated at the time; indeed, some contradict each other. There is little to no evidence (outside the religious institution itself) that Muhammad even existed. There is evidence that many passages in the Qur'an were translated improperly (for example Abraham being thrown into a fire). The evidence is all there, it is just a matter of: do you search for evidence that only validates your presuppositions? Or do you search for evidence for the claims themselves in order to find the real truth?

    This is why Einstein said religion without science is blind. This is why the Qur'an is in the form it is in; your own prophet told you to think, contemplate, reflect on it. That is why to not understand how you are breaking the commandment of witness/testimony only delivers you into oppression/ignorance. Now if you are a prideful person, you will see this not. If your search is truthful, you too can discover the inherent hypocrisy of such testimony. It is a part of the lesson. It goes back to the very first lesson actually; if you continue to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, but not derive the lesson you are supposed to be learning by doing it, it causes death. Like a child putting their hand in fire; if they keep doing it, they eventually die. The only lesson is to stop eating from it, or stop putting your hand in the fire, and that is to become "like" God as the serpent put it. But if you don't see how this testimony/witness statement is self-incriminating and stay firm in your pride, it is the same as leaving your hand in the fire and not learning.

    As such the shahada is like a backdoor trojan program; once you click "install" on the pop-up, you invite a whole host of infiltration. That is why the commandment is there in the first place, and written in stone no less.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    I am going to make one last attempt to explain what Jesus meant by "the Father".
    Correction. One last attempt to explain WHAT YOU BELIEVE that Jesus meant by "the Father". You and I clearly believe different things.
    But then again, you are wasting your time, because I already know what you believe about that, and it is wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    The father is not a man. It is not a human. It is not a biological being.
    That is what you believe, but it can only be wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    Jesus' use of the word "father" is simply in reference to "the instruction as provided directly from Allah" ... The father is not a person; Jesus' use of the word "father" is symbolic for Allah / creation itself.
    IMPOSSIBLE. Gospel according to Thomas 44. Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

    Hence, the Father can impossibly be Allah. It is obviously the Holy Spirit that is Allah.

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    For you to say Jesus' father is "in heaven" and therefore dead is just a complete misunderstanding of the entire concept.
    Since his Father is not Allah, and his Father is already in heaven, it can only mean that his Father is dead already. Seriously, read carefully what Jesus says in the Gospels, before jumping to conclusions.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    You misunderstand me, I never meant to imply, nor in the slightest way intend to say that you should believe the Quran and declare Shahada upon first sight. Nor that you should accept with no evidence or weak evidence.

    My first objection was to your opening argument. Re-afferming that the Shahada in it's original language does not mean "testimony via personal experience" was in response to your opening post to show that the Quran is not self-contradicting, or in conflict with the commandments.

    Now as to your lengthy dialogue about evidence and science. The Quran and Islam does not discourage scrutiny or intellectual discourse. Rather it discourages and warns against following man made fiction.

    Indeed there is no direct self-experience. But it is not the only way. There exists the Quran and our current knowledge of the mortal world. Enough information to comfortably come to the logical conclusion that:
    1)The Quran was preserved
    2)Quran contains information only God could've known at the time
    3)All that is in the Quran came from the same source.(in this case, God)

    Now as to whether there is enough overall info to verify these 3 points or not is another topic. There is. I believe there can exist other ways to examine and come to the conclusion that the Quran is God's word. But I believe your objection was not about the evidence. But about the nature of the evidence. That examinable information and deduction is insufficient. In which case you are very wrong.

    As for your argument about the necessity for personal experience in regards to coming to an intellectual conclusion or presenting said conclusion as testimony. It is simply unbacked or poorly backed at best. Your only supporting statement to it is that the commandments came to us in stone. If you are assuming that it means we should only accept physical evidence or personal experience, then that is a leap in logic from your part. Assumption that since God did this, God meant that. And assumption based on personal interpretation with no backing. This also shows that all hypothetical scenarios you presented are poor examples as said scenarios require that the assumption they are established on(the assumption that self-experience is the only valid testimony) is backed, In this case it's not.

    Finally, mistranslation can never be used as a point against the Quran or Islam. Mistranslation is the fault of the translators in part and the difficulty that comes with translation in part.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by pronorah View Post
    Correction. One last attempt to explain WHAT YOU BELIEVE that Jesus meant by "the Father". You and I clearly believe different things.
    But then again, you are wasting your time, because I already know what you believe about that, and it is wrong.

    I can accept you and I believe different things, there is no issue with this.

    That is what you believe, but it can only be wrong.

    To me mine, and to you yours. I respect your right to your views, as I would expect others to mine in kind.

    IMPOSSIBLE. Gospel according to Thomas 44. Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

    Yes; is it not written that Allah is oft forebearing, merciful? One can blaspheme the Father if they are astray, but can in kind return to the Father through Christ. Those who blaspheme Christ can also be forgiven because they are astray, but if they turn to Allah through Christ, this is the only way anyways which is why one can be forgiven on either account. But of the Holy Spirit? What did Allah breathe into Adam pbuh to animate him? That would be the holy spirit "breath of life". How did Abram become Abraham pbuh? The same "breath of life" or "Holy Spirit". As such to blaspheme the "breath of life" or "Holy Spirit" can not be forgiven, because to do this is to blaspheme the very spirit which was breathed into Adam in order that we may be here in the first place! Did Isa Ibn Maryam pbuh not say "Before Abraham, I am?"

    Hence, the Father can impossibly be Allah. It is obviously the Holy Spirit that is Allah.

    To say the Holy Spirit is Allah is to say the breath he breathed into Adam is Allah. It is not accurate in my view, but as I said, you may believe what you will, and me mine.

    Since his Father is not Allah, and his Father is already in heaven, it can only mean that his Father is dead already. Seriously, read carefully what Jesus says in the Gospels, before jumping to conclusions.

    I don't think we will reach any accord with this; as before, to me mine and you yours.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Hythem View Post
    You misunderstand me, I never meant to imply, nor in the slightest way intend to say that you should believe the Quran and declare Shahada upon first sight. Nor that you should accept with no evidence or weak evidence.

    My first objection was to your opening argument. Re-afferming that the Shahada in it's original language does not mean "testimony via personal experience" was in response to your opening post to show that the Quran is not self-contradicting, or in conflict with the commandments.

    Now as to your lengthy dialogue about evidence and science. The Quran and Islam does not discourage scrutiny or intellectual discourse. Rather it discourages and warns against following man made fiction.

    Indeed there is no direct self-experience. But it is not the only way. There exists the Quran and our current knowledge of the mortal world. Enough information to comfortably come to the logical conclusion that:
    1)The Quran was preserved
    2)Quran contains information only God could've known at the time
    3)All that is in the Quran came from the same source.(in this case, God)

    Now as to whether there is enough overall info to verify these 3 points or not is another topic. There is. I believe there can exist other ways to examine and come to the conclusion that the Quran is God's word. But I believe your objection was not about the evidence. But about the nature of the evidence. That examinable information and deduction is insufficient. In which case you are very wrong.

    This is opening up a dialogue that is likely to become very nasty if we can't control ourselves. Of the three points you made above, I contest all of them. There are many texts in the Qur'an which are easily traceable to pre-existing Syro-Aramaic liturgical texts that predates Islam entirely. The burning of the Qur'ans and reliance of oral tradition calls much into question, and the Qur'an is proven to contain texts which came from multiple sources. This is a part of the "test". I am not stating the Qur'an was not divinely inspired, but these contentions you made above, as I see them, are not correct. For example, there is no science in the Qur'an which was not known at the time it was developed. While this may be undesirable to hear, the proof is there should one seek it. This should not discredit the Qur'an or Muhammad pbuh, it should only serve as yet another piece of the puzzle in order to complete the "test".

    As for your argument about the necessity for personal experience in regards to coming to an intellectual conclusion or presenting said conclusion as testimony. It is simply unbacked or poorly backed at best. Your only supporting statement to it is that the commandments came to us in stone. If you are assuming that it means we should only accept physical evidence or personal experience, then that is a leap in logic from your part. Assumption that since God did this, God meant that. And assumption based on personal interpretation with no backing. This also shows that all hypothetical scenarios you presented are poor examples as said scenarios require that the assumption they are established on(the assumption that self-experience is the only valid testimony) is backed, In this case it's not.

    The backing is provided by the narrative that follows and involves literacy. The Israelites broke the commandments which were set in stone. Moses then broke the commandments to show what happens; people worship physical objects and chaos and oppression comes as a result. This is not arbitrary; this is a very specific lesson which is intended to impart the "here is why" they were written in stone. We can disagree on this, but the narrative is clear in my mind. It is the same with the first story; you can't know why not to eat from the tree of good and evil until you see the consequences (personal experience) of doing it. So to do it, and realize your mistake, is to derive lesson. Likewise, to break the commandment(s) and derive lesson is to come closer to a state of existence free from oppression; that is to say, if you don't realize you're breaking the commandments, oppression ensues. It is the oppression itself which is supposed to make you think "wait a minute, something is not quite right here". Now we may disagree on this but there are no hard feelings on my end; to each their own.

    Finally, mistranslation can never be used as a point against the Quran or Islam. Mistranslation is the fault of the translators in part and the difficulty that comes with translation in part.
    Indeed; but should that mistranslation be treated as "Word of God", despite it being wrong, that's a problem. It is the responsibility of the individual to verify the veracity of the text itself. Failing this, if he/she just takes the text as "perfect word of God" and does not incline themselves to personally check it, then this is a serious problem which opens the door to a whole host of other issues.

    Now with regard to the shahada, I would still maintain that indeed it is in contradiction to the commandments, but this is a point of contention specific to each individual so there is likely no way we will see eye to eye on this. From my own perspective; if this commandment were followed properly, there would be much less oppression in the world.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    Now with regard to the shahada, I would still maintain that indeed it is in contradiction to the commandments
    But come on! Read carefully what Jesus said about "the Father":

    Thomas 44. Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

    That is why I spit, urinate, and defecate on "the Father". I also think that "the Father" was a subhuman piece of dog shit. If you believe that Jesus was the messenger of Allah, and that what he said, is true, then you must agree with me that I will be forgiven for saying that. That is also why I say it. Seriously, why am I saying this? Because I can.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by pronorah View Post
    But come on! Read carefully what Jesus said about "the Father":

    Thomas 44. Jesus said, "Whoever blasphemes against the Father will be forgiven, and whoever blasphemes against the son will be forgiven, but whoever blasphemes against the holy spirit will not be forgiven, either on earth or in heaven."

    That is why I spit, urinate, and defecate on "the Father". I also think that "the Father" was a subhuman piece of dog shit. If you believe that Jesus was the messenger of Allah, and that what he said, is true, then you must agree with me that I will be forgiven for saying that. That is also why I say it. Seriously, why am I saying this? Because I can.
    You will be forgiven.

    I present to you the creation account of man:

    Day one: Allah said let there be light. Isa pbuh says "You are the light of the world". No matter was created yet. As such what you refer to as your "self" completely transcends the physical.
    Day two: Allah said let the waters be divided from the waters and sky.
    Day three: Allah said let there be foliage; the basis of life.
    Day four: Allah said let there be the sun, stars, planets and let them be for signs.
    Day five: Allah said let there be marine life and birds; consistent with evolution (marine life came first).
    Day six: Allah said let there be land animals/humans; consistent with evolution (land life came after marine life).
    Day seven: Allah rests.

    Now Adam pbuh "evolved" from more primitive homonids; if you are truthful in saying that the Qur'an does not reject science, and evolution theory (a theory is a premise based on facts) is true, then it is so. Now God creates Adam from "the clay", which means you were "evolved" from the same constituents that form the earth; carbon-based life. He put Adam to sleep and made Eve from his own rib; the basis of embryonic cell division "one becomes two". Adam means "Atom" which is matter/action, Eve means "energy/desire". Matter/energy. God says you can eat from any tree (you can do whatever you wish in life) but don't eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because it is the cause of death. The serpent says you will not die but become "like" God, to know good and evil. By saying the serpent is evil/Iblis is breaking Allah's first commandment. They are both neutral. Eve (desire) lets her sense organs tempt her "it would be desirable to become wise" and she eats and gives to Adam and he eats. Their eyes are opened, they feel shame and "hide" from Allah. Allah was merely walking in the "cool of the day" until he calls Adam to show himself. Adam is hidden because of his shame. God asks Adam "who told you that you were naked?" and they were expelled from the Garden.

    Allah is still in the Garden; Garden of Eden. Jesus/Isa pbuh is referring to his father as the same Garden-dweller "Allah" just as in the first story on all of scripture. If you think otherwise, that is your choice, but to say "the Father" is dead is rather bizarre. That's like saying Allah is dead. That's why he says whoever blasphemes the Father will be forgiven (it is natural), whoever blasphemes Christ will be forgiven (it is natural), but the holy spirit (breath of life breathed into Adam) either on earth or in heaven/the Garden will not be forgiven because to deny the very essence of life "holy spirit" is to deny life itself. It's like God breathing the breath of life into Adam and Adam saying "I don't want this." You may as well go commit suicide if this is what you actually believe. Because that's what denying the holy spirit is; the breath of life itself.
    Last edited by justoneman; 18-09-17 at 01:14 AM.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    You will be forgiven.
    I really took a risk there. If "the Father" were our beloved Master, the illustrious Allah, it would be very dangerous to say that. The point is, however, that I am 100% sure that "the Father" of Jesus was not Allah. Jesus himself clearly admits it, and not just in the Quran. Jesus admits it everywhere. Seriously, Jesus was a messenger of Allah and always spoke the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    if you are truthful in saying that the Qur'an does not reject science, and evolution theory (a theory is a premise based on facts) is true, then it is so.
    "Evolution theory" is not provable nor testable/falsifiable. It is not a theory. It is a conjecture. Evolution conjecture could possibly make sense in one way or another, but why would that even be important? I do not analyze all possible conjectures in depth. In fact, I do not particularly care about conjectures.

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    If you think otherwise, that is your choice, but to say "the Father" is dead is rather bizarre.
    From what Jesus says, I just assume that he is. Why would he ask us to pray for his father who is already in heaven, if he were still alive when Jesus said that?

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    That's like saying Allah is dead.
    No, no, "the Father" was not Allah. As I told you, Jesus gave us the permission to liberally spit, urinate, and defecate on "the Father". That is why I do it. I actually enjoy doing that. It is even fun. I like to throw mud at him. Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    That's why he says whoever blasphemes the Father will be forgiven (it is natural)
    Yes, that is exactly why I do that. My new hobby is to incessantly make derogatory remarks about "the Father".

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    whoever blasphemes Christ will be forgiven (it is natural)
    Jesus may have allowed it, but the Quran throws a spanner in the works. The Islamic scriptures forbid this. So, no, I am not interested in making that kind of remarks about Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by justoneman View Post
    but the holy spirit (breath of life breathed into Adam) either on earth or in heaven/the Garden will not be forgiven because to deny the very essence of life "holy spirit" is to deny life itself.
    Yes, Jesus meant to say that the Holy Spirit is Allah, our beloved Master. Jesus was obviously right.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by pronorah View Post
    I really took a risk there. If "the Father" were our beloved Master, the illustrious Allah, it would be very dangerous to say that. The point is, however, that I am 100% sure that "the Father" of Jesus was not Allah. Jesus himself clearly admits it, and not just in the Quran. Jesus admits it everywhere. Seriously, Jesus was a messenger of Allah and always spoke the truth.


    "Evolution theory" is not provable nor testable/falsifiable. It is not a theory. It is a conjecture. Evolution conjecture could possibly make sense in one way or another, but why would that even be important? I do not analyze all possible conjectures in depth. In fact, I do not particularly care about conjectures.


    From what Jesus says, I just assume that he is. Why would he ask us to pray for his father who is already in heaven, if he were still alive when Jesus said that?


    No, no, "the Father" was not Allah. As I told you, Jesus gave us the permission to liberally spit, urinate, and defecate on "the Father". That is why I do it. I actually enjoy doing that. It is even fun. I like to throw mud at him. Why not?


    Yes, that is exactly why I do that. My new hobby is to incessantly make derogatory remarks about "the Father".


    Jesus may have allowed it, but the Quran throws a spanner in the works. The Islamic scriptures forbid this. So, no, I am not interested in making that kind of remarks about Jesus.


    Yes, Jesus meant to say that the Holy Spirit is Allah, our beloved Master. Jesus was obviously right.
    1) I am no longer interested in this thread but I would like to make few more remarks. You are right that the theory of evolution is based on conjecture, you can refer to this video for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nAlkL9vbtD4. Nonetheless, Islam is only against the idea of human beings having common ancestor with other species.

    2) Even if you think the "Father" is not Allah, you should not insult other people's religion. Allah said:

    A) And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah , lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do.(Surah 6:108).

    3) Christians and Jews use "Father" in a metaphoric way, it is even in the Quran:

    A) But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination. (Surah 5:18).

    4) Angel Gabriel is the Holy Spirit:

    A) "And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit." (Surah 2:87)

    B) Say, [O Muhammad], "The Pure Spirit has brought it down from your Lord in truth to make firm those who believe and as guidance and good tidings to the Muslims." (Surah 16:102).
    Last edited by Calender121438; 18-09-17 at 05:30 AM.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Calender121438 View Post
    2) Even if you think the "Father" is not Allah, you should not insult other people's religion.
    Well, it is Jesus himself who gave that permission ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Calender121438 View Post
    Allah said: A) And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah , lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do.(Surah 6:108).
    Since "the Father" is not Allah, 100% sure of that, I am not insulting our beloved Master, the illustrious Allah. Jesus guarantees that it is absolutely safe to insult "The Father". The last ones who should question the truth of what Jesus says, are the Christians. Are you really suggesting that Jesus is a liar? This is not allowed, neither in Christianity, nor in Islam.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calender121438 View Post
    3) Christians and Jews use "Father" in a metaphoric way, it is even in the Quran.
    You are questioning the truth of what Jesus said. That is not permissible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Calender121438 View Post
    4) Angel Gabriel is the Holy Spirit: A) "And We gave Jesus, the son of Mary, clear proofs and supported him with the Pure Spirit." (Surah 2:87)
    The Biblical "Holy Spirit" and Quranic "Pure Spirit" cannot be the same entity. Angel Gabriel is not "Holy". Only our beloved Master, the illustrious Allah is Holy and worthy of worship.

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    Re: Literacy in Islam

    I just wanted to add one line here regarding evolution.

    Evolution is not conjecture. It is not a baseless "theory". A theory is the highest status in any scientific classification. For example, we have a theory of gravity. Gravity is a fact. We have a theory of evolution. Evolution is a fact. It is written in Genesis that biological life began in a distinct time period; marine life begin in a distinct time period; and land/human life began in a specific time period. Science is demonstrably proven that all life originated in the water and evolved onto land. It's in the very first book of all scripture. It is not conjecture.

    Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind. -Einstein

    This is a word equation. It states that one must measure religion against science, and vice versa. If there are individuals who still believe that Allah created man as man, and not evolved from the whole process of life as outlined in Genesis, it is just pure ignorance that stems from personal pride. Our DNA is 98.77% identical to a chimpanzee; we evolved from more primitive hominids.

    That's why animal sacrifice is necessary; to "sacrifice" the "animal" nature within that comes along with evolution that we may evolve further. To deny evolution is to stagnate and remain in animal nature. Imitation is an animal trait. Idolatry is imitation. Idolatry is forbidden by God. It is all connected.

 

 

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