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    Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    It is obvious that The Torah Allah sent to Bani Isra'il was changed and is no longer in it's orginal format. I'm just curious what's in the Torah and what Jews believe in.

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    Odan muzzybee's Avatar
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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Where do you find the torah...
    There is Talmud ......but original Torah dont exist anymore in my view

    Youtube channel - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYk...dE4pHzSid7Lr0w

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by muzzybee View Post
    Where do you find the torah...
    There is Talmud ......but original Torah dont exist anymore in my view
    There is also Torah which was collected and compiled by Ezra.

    The Talmud itself is separate from this. The Talmud consists of two parts: The Misrah Torah (Oral torah) and Gemarah (commentary on misrah torah).

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    Odan muzzybee's Avatar
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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicen View Post
    There is also Torah which was collected and compiled by Ezra.

    The Talmud itself is separate from this. The Talmud consists of two parts: The Misrah Torah (Oral torah) and Gemarah (commentary on misrah torah).
    Oh

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    Odan Abu julaybeeb's Avatar
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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    When umar ra was reading the torah the prophet got angry and told him not to read it

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    how do we know the torah was changed? if i remember correctly, the verses in the quran are about injeel, no? and when did the torah change? because the following hadith apparently says that the torah was there till the prophet pbuh's time.

    Narrated Ibn `Umar:
    A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet (ﷺ) asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." `Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn `Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.
    bukhari 6819

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by hassan246 View Post
    It is obvious that The Torah Allah sent to Bani Isra'il was changed and is no longer in it's orginal format. I'm just curious what's in the Torah and what Jews believe in.
    There is indeed extensive proof for substantive scribal interpolation and textual damage to the original Christian Gospels, but such proof does not exist for the Jewish Torah.

    Below a discussion on exactly this claim on the Judaic stack exchange: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/36687/has-the-torah-been-changed-over-the-ages

    Funnily, they also refer to the same hadith in which the prophet, may he rest in peace, pronounces a ruling concerning the adulterous jew and jewess, by having the applicable verse lifted straight from the Torah.

    There are issues with corrupted spelling, though:

    He defends the thesis that the texts did suffer some issues in the era of the Judges, and that Jewish authorities have often discussed these issues and their relationship to various special dots and modified letters in the traditional scribal text.

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by pronorah View Post
    There is indeed extensive proof for substantive scribal interpolation and textual damage to the original Christian Gospels, but such proof does not exist for the Jewish Torah.

    Below a discussion on exactly this claim on the Judaic stack exchange: judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/36687/has-the-torah-been-changed-over-the-ages

    Funnily, they also refer to the same hadith in which the prophet, may he rest in peace, pronounces a ruling concerning the adulterous jew and jewess, by having the applicable verse lifted straight from the Torah.

    There are issues with corrupted spelling, though:

    He defends the thesis that the texts did suffer some issues in the era of the Judges, and that Jewish authorities have often discussed these issues and their relationship to various special dots and modified letters in the traditional scribal text.
    i was once debating an atheist and he brought this issue up. got me thinking, to be honest. but there are a few explanations i have. it is possible that the torah was not changed in theology or law but changed in stories and examples. it is also possible, and probably true, that some parts of the torah were lost. i dont think it changed nearly as badly as the gospels.

    thanks for the link.
    Last edited by Muhaqqiq; 08-09-17 at 10:27 AM.

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muhaqqiq View Post
    how do we know the torah was changed? if i remember correctly, the verses in the quran are about injeel, no? and when did the torah change? because the following hadith apparently says that the torah was there till the prophet pbuh's time.

    Narrated Ibn `Umar:
    A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet (ﷺ) asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." `Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ), tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn `Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.
    bukhari 6819
    Both books are corrupted.

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikha’eel View Post
    Both books are corrupted.
    was asking for the daleel that the torah is corrupted brother. and an explanation for the hadith that i quoted.

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muhaqqiq View Post
    was asking for the daleel that the torah is corrupted brother. and an explanation for the hadith that i quoted.
    http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/ev...ish_scriptures

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    jazakallahu khaira brother. the link is very good.

    can you or someone else explain the hadith in light of the fact that the torah was indeed changed?

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muhaqqiq View Post
    was asking for the daleel that the torah is corrupted brother. and an explanation for the hadith that i quoted.
    Some stories of the Genesis do match with hadiths.

    And I have heard the argument that when the Allah mentions that jews brought sayings which they say are from the Torah but actually are not from the Torah, the Quran is referencing to the Misrah Torah(Oral Torah)/Talmud.

    The jews believe that the Misrah Torah (Oral torah) is also part of the actual torah.

    Saying that some passages including the one addressing Isaac (A) and not Ishmael(A) as the sacrifice are jewish changes. Infact, in Genesis Moses (A) mentions that he fears the ink of scholars could change the scripture. That's why he kept a stone tablet and a copy of the scripture in a chest (?) which I think is the Ark of the Covenant(?) Not sure though.

    Due to some of these reasons I no longer make fun of or mock passages of the Torah, may Allah forgive me for my errors.

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    @Muhaqqiq - pronorah is right about the spelling.

    What Torah you have now is known as Masoretic texts. The texts had various spelling mistakes which had to be corrected by the Masoretic rabbis in the 9th/10th century. These rabbis were more or less very careful when trying to 'fix' these mistakes.

    Oh I forgot to mention, you should discard the Book of Esther because it actually is 100% fiction.

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicen View Post
    Some stories of the Genesis do match with hadiths.

    And I have heard the argument that when the Allah mentions that jews brought sayings which they say are from the Torah but actually are not from the Torah, the Quran is referencing to the Misrah Torah(Oral Torah)/Talmud.

    The jews believe that the Misrah Torah (Oral torah) is also part of the actual torah.

    Saying that some passages including the one addressing Isaac (A) and not Ishmael(A) as the sacrifice are jewish changes. Infact, in Genesis Moses (A) mentions that he fears the ink of scholars could change the scripture. That's why he kept a stone tablet and a copy of the scripture in a chest (?) which I think is the Ark of the Covenant(?) Not sure though.

    Due to some of these reasons I no longer make fun of or mock passages of the Torah, may Allah forgive me for my errors.
    i wasnt that concerned about what changed. i only wanted to know whether the changes did take place or not. and the link provided by the brother was more than enough in providing evidence for tahreef. thanks for further explanation though.

    what i am looking for now is an explanation for the hadith where the prophet pbuh asked the jews what was in the torah. and the torah was actually brought to him.

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muhaqqiq View Post
    i wasnt that concerned about what changed. i only wanted to know whether the changes did take place or not. and the link provided by the brother was more than enough in providing evidence for tahreef. thanks for further explanation though.

    what i am looking for now is an explanation for the hadith where the prophet pbuh asked the jews what was in the torah. and the torah was actually brought to him.
    The Torah was not wholesale changed so parts of it is still authentic scripture, like the verse of stoning, which was actually stopped being practiced by Jews.

    On the flip side, there's an argument that Dhimmis are to be ruled by the laws of their own religion, which is why Prophet(S) used the torah. This doesn't explain why the verse was called Divine verse of Ar-Rajm. Nonetheless this argument or explanation is the position of mainstream scholars.

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicen View Post
    The Torah was not wholesale changed so parts of it is still authentic scripture, like the verse of stoning, which was actually stopped being practiced by Jews.

    On the flip side, there's an argument that Dhimmis are to be ruled by the laws of their own religion, which is why Prophet(S) used the torah. This doesn't explain why the verse was called Divine verse of Ar-Rajm. Nonetheless this argument or explanation is the position of mainstream scholars.
    so, even when the torah was slightly changed, it is still called torah? sorry i only ask this because i was asked this once.

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post
    When umar ra was reading the torah the prophet got angry and told him not to read it
    Which hadeeth is that ?

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muhaqqiq View Post
    so, even when the torah was slightly changed, it is still called torah? sorry i only ask this because i was asked this once.
    Yes , it will be called Torah.

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bismil View Post
    Yes , it will be called Torah.
    So if the Quran tells us to believe in the Torah, we are to believe in the changed version too?

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muhaqqiq View Post
    So if the Quran tells us to believe in the Torah, we are to believe in the changed version too?
    I do not think Quran tells us to believe in the Torah present during life of Muhammad SAW .

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bismil View Post
    I do not think Quran tells us to believe in the Torah present during life of Muhammad SAW .
    On what basis do we distinguish between the Torah mentioned in Quran and the hadith I mentioned above? Any textual evidence or understanding of the salad?

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    *salaf. lol @ typo

  24. #24
    mommys boy msmoorad's Avatar
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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    salaams to all

    im finding it very strange that we have muslims here who doubt that the Torah & the Bible were altered.
    u guys need to spend time in the company of the ulama on a regular basis.

    cant u see that all the wars & chaos in the world is due to exactly this?
    these ppl dont want to obey Allah ta'alas commands & changed their books to suit their desires & convenience

    and they would like to see us do the same

    sad to say, many muslims seem to be living their lives no different from the enemies of Allah
    and they use the intelligence that Allah ta'ala has blessed them with, to try to do with Islam what the kuffaar have done to the divine books that were revealed to them.

    may Allah ta'ala guide us all & strengthen our Imaan so that we practice our deen openly despite the insults & criticism we may receive from ppl.

    and Allah ta'ala knows best
    jazakallah
    Sufyaan Thawri "Whoever is very popular with his relations and neighbours, we suspect him to be compromising in preaching the true teachings of religion."
    very good site for English bayaans in MP3 format-check it out- u wont be disappointed: http://www.musjidnoor.za.net/index.html & http://alhaadi.org.za/majlis-program...downloads.html

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by msmoorad View Post
    salaams to all

    im finding it very strange that we have muslims here who doubt that the Torah & the Bible were altered.
    u guys need to spend time in the company of the ulama on a regular basis.

    cant u see that all the wars & chaos in the world is due to exactly this?
    these ppl dont want to obey Allah ta'alas commands & changed their books to suit their desires & convenience

    and they would like to see us do the same

    sad to say, many muslims seem to be living their lives no different from the enemies of Allah
    and they use the intelligence that Allah ta'ala has blessed them with, to try to do with Islam what the kuffaar have done to the divine books that were revealed to them.

    may Allah ta'ala guide us all & strengthen our Imaan so that we practice our deen openly despite the insults & criticism we may receive from ppl.

    and Allah ta'ala knows best
    jazakallah
    ameen.
    why is it strange though? are all muslims here supposed to know everything about islam? no. some may be new muslims. some may never have been introduced to this topic. some may be looking for evidence of it. maybe there are on legit ulama where the muslims on this forum are from.

  26. #26
    mommys boy msmoorad's Avatar
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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muhaqqiq View Post
    ameen.
    why is it strange though? are all muslims here supposed to know everything about islam? no. some may be new muslims. some may never have been introduced to this topic. some may be looking for evidence of it. maybe there are on legit ulama where the muslims on this forum are from.
    Salaams to all

    What u say is true but the way ppl post as if they KNOW FOR SURE.
    A person who is asking or isnt sure, doesnt adopt that tone.

    I just cant steess this enough- keep the company of the ulama as much as u can.
    Too many ppl in the west are totally clueless about simple and basic things when it comes to deen simply bcos theyre busy chasing $,€or Ł.
    They are prepared to relocate or make big adjustments to their lives for money but to ensure they live near good scholars- that doesnt seem to be a priority.

    And Allah ta'ala knows best
    jazakallah
    Sufyaan Thawri "Whoever is very popular with his relations and neighbours, we suspect him to be compromising in preaching the true teachings of religion."
    very good site for English bayaans in MP3 format-check it out- u wont be disappointed: http://www.musjidnoor.za.net/index.html & http://alhaadi.org.za/majlis-program...downloads.html

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    لا إله إلا الله HealerofWorlds's Avatar
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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Why would it be forbidden?
    "East, west, south, or north makes little difference. No matter what your destination, just be sure to make every journey a journey within. If you travel within, you’ll travel the whole wide world and beyond." - Rule 9. - The Forty Rules of Love.

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by HealerofWorlds View Post
    Why would it be forbidden?
    First all of we dont need to read the torah it was for a different time we have the Quran and in the Quran it says Allah has perfected this religion
    And the quran is for everyone until the end of the world so we dont need to read any book beside Quran

    Second of all these books have been altered and distorted and the shaytaan could easily cause you to become fasinated by these books. Also the prophet always made duaa that Allah keeps him steadfast on this deen hes a prophet then what about us. Theres a hadith that states Allah holds are souls between his fingers. Basically you can go muslim to kaafir just lile that. We have to beg Allah to keep us muslim. Reading the bible ad torah is dangerous you could easily become a kaafir if your imaan is weak

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    Odan Abu julaybeeb's Avatar
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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bismil View Post
    Which hadeeth is that ?
    It was narrated from Jaabir ibn ‘Abdullah (may Allah be pleased with him) that ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allah be pleased with him) came to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) with some written material he had got from one of the people of the Book. He read it to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), and he got angry and said: “Are you confused (about your religion), O son of al-Khattaab? By the One in Whose hand is my soul, I have brought it (the message of Islam) to you clear and pure. Do not ask them about anything, lest they tell you something true and you disbelieve it, or they tell you something false and you believe it. By the One in Whose hand is my soul, if Moosa were alive, he would have no option but to follow me.”

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post
    It was narrated from Jaabir ibn ‘Abdullah (may Allah be pleased with him) that ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allah be pleased with him) came to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) with some written material he had got from one of the people of the Book. He read it to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), and he got angry and said: “Are you confused (about your religion), O son of al-Khattaab? By the One in Whose hand is my soul, I have brought it (the message of Islam) to you clear and pure. Do not ask them about anything, lest they tell you something true and you disbelieve it, or they tell you something false and you believe it. By the One in Whose hand is my soul, if Moosa were alive, he would have no option but to follow me.”
    This is not authentic as per islam Q site.

    But nevertheless reading Torah as for knowledge is not wrong. It is wrong to derive religious matters from them.
    If you do not read it , how will you invite them towards Islam. Allah swt says that Muhammad SAW name has been mentioned in previous divine books. We have a authentic hadeeth where prophet shows respect to Torah.

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    Odan Abu julaybeeb's Avatar
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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bismil View Post
    This is not authentic as per islam Q site.

    But nevertheless reading Torah as for knowledge is not wrong. It is wrong to derive religious matters from them.
    If you do not read it , how will you invite them towards Islam. Allah swt says that Muhammad SAW name has been mentioned in previous divine books. We have a authentic hadeeth where prophet shows respect to Torah.
    JazakAllahk khair i didnt know still i think the hadith is good in the message it sends

    Im not gonna risk my imaan reading these distorted books
    Il leave the comparative religion dawah side to the scholars
    In terms of me giving dawah on a personal level i can still give dawah without knowledge of their books and people who seek islam will come to you and will be curious most of the time
    The people that you have to debate with and proove wrong most of the time from what i see dont want to hear your side and accept islam

    You can give dawah without reading the torah

    Respecting the torah doesnt mean reading it.

  32. #32
    لا إله إلا الله HealerofWorlds's Avatar
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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post
    First all of we dont need to read the torah it was for a different time we have the Quran and in the Quran it says Allah has perfected this religion
    And the quran is for everyone until the end of the world so we dont need to read any book beside Quran

    Second of all these books have been altered and distorted and the shaytaan could easily cause you to become fasinated by these books. Also the prophet always made duaa that Allah keeps him steadfast on this deen hes a prophet then what about us. Theres a hadith that states Allah holds are souls between his fingers. Basically you can go muslim to kaafir just lile that. We have to beg Allah to keep us muslim. Reading the bible ad torah is dangerous you could easily become a kaafir if your imaan is weak
    There is a difference between reading and following though. I don't think Allah has forbidden anyone from reading them.
    "East, west, south, or north makes little difference. No matter what your destination, just be sure to make every journey a journey within. If you travel within, you’ll travel the whole wide world and beyond." - Rule 9. - The Forty Rules of Love.

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by HealerofWorlds View Post
    There is a difference between reading and following though. I don't think Allah has forbidden anyone from reading them.
    From the hadith, I kind of understood that the prophet, may he rest in peace, considered the Torah mandatory for those who declare allegiance to Judaism, i.e. the Jews. This is obviously not the case for those who declare allegiance to Islam, i.e. the Muslims, to whom the Quran is mandatory.

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    Re: Is reading the Torah forbidden in Islam?

    Quote Originally Posted by msmoorad View Post
    salaams to all

    im finding it very strange that we have muslims here who doubt that the Torah & the Bible were altered.
    u guys need to spend time in the company of the ulama on a regular basis.

    cant u see that all the wars & chaos in the world is due to exactly this?
    these ppl dont want to obey Allah ta'alas commands & changed their books to suit their desires & convenience

    and they would like to see us do the same

    sad to say, many muslims seem to be living their lives no different from the enemies of Allah
    and they use the intelligence that Allah ta'ala has blessed them with, to try to do with Islam what the kuffaar have done to the divine books that were revealed to them.

    may Allah ta'ala guide us all & strengthen our Imaan so that we practice our deen openly despite the insults & criticism we may receive from ppl.

    and Allah ta'ala knows best
    jazakallah
    Is there an ayah in the Qur'an that support that statement? Or at the very least an authentic Hadith.
    Last edited by hassan246; 03-10-17 at 04:34 AM.

 

 

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