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  1. #1
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    Infidels Revising History



    A new trend I've seen is the kuffar are trying to revise history, especially concerning the battles fought by the early Muslims.

    It seems to be a new strategy to try and weaken the morale of the Muslims.

    For example, the Battle of Yarmouk.

    Its agreed that the Roman force was much larger than the Muslim force, some believe even 4 times as large.

    But if you go to the Wikipedia article on it you will find that the infidels have attempted to change the strength of forces.

    "Moderns estimates" putting the Byzantine army as the same size as the Muslim army.

    My question is why dont "modern estimates" dispute other battles such as the Battle of Cannae? Or other battles from the past.

    The Battle of Yarmouk was one of the most decisive and important battles in history. The Roman province of Syria was lost forever. All historic sources agree the Roman army was considered 100,000 strong. Now we see "modern estimates" of 15,000 for both sides.

  2. #41
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    Re: Infidels Revising History

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    You missed the joke, I'm afraid. It's a well-known (mis)quotation.
    The original version was "This is the west, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."
    nonsense comes from both east and west

    I don't really care about these quotes

  3. #42
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    Re: Infidels Revising History

    Quote Originally Posted by Talwaar View Post
    nonsense comes from both east and west
    Precisely.
    However, Spicen seems to think that if it comes from "the east" it must be true and if it comes from "the west" it's part of a wicked conspiracy. In fact, you seem to go along to some degree: your belief that trying to examine what actually happened at the battle of Yarmouk is "a new strategy to try and weaken the morale of the Muslims" is - to put it politely - a rather eccentric view of things.
    I don't really care about these quotes
    I rather enjoy them.
    Last edited by Sceptic; 10-08-17 at 04:33 PM.

  4. #43
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    Re: Infidels Revising History

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Precisely.
    However, Spicen seems to think that if it comes from "the east" it must be true and if it comes from "the west" it's part of a wicked conspiracy. In fact, you seem to go along to some degree: your belief that trying to examine what actually happened at the battle of Yarmouk is "a new strategy to try and weaken the morale of the Muslims" is - to put it politely - a rather eccentric view of things.I rather enjoy them.
    No

    What is being done in this case is exactly what I described

    All historical sources agree that the Muslims were heavily outnumbered and outgunned in nearly all of the early battles against the Romans and Persians.

    But only the battles against the Romans are revised to the extent where the numbers were equal. This is nothing but butthurt nonsense. Spice has a point here, whites made these changes later on due to butthurt.

    You don't see this kind of revisionism for the battle of al Qadisiyyah for example.

  5. #44
    Odan
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    Re: Infidels Revising History

    Quote Originally Posted by Talwaar View Post
    No

    What is being done in this case is exactly what I described

    All historical sources agree that the Muslims were heavily outnumbered and outgunned in nearly all of the early battles against the Romans and Persians.
    Outgunned? In the seventh century?

    But only the battles against the Romans are revised to the extent where the numbers were equal. This is nothing but butthurt nonsense. Spice has a point here, whites made these changes later on due to butthurt.

    You don't see this kind of revisionism for the battle of al Qadisiyyah for example.
    There are probably fewer specialists in Persian history than Byzantine. You'll find an interesting summary of why views of Yarmouk have changed here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistoria...xists_for_the/ and much the same rethinking has been going on about all mediaeval history over the past few years. Much the same thing applies with mediaeval Spain and the 100 Years' War and the Wars of the Roses. Historians have looked at logistics rather than memories.
    You also have a strange idea of attitudes to the Byzantines. Again, until recently the Byzantines were regarded as decadent and absurd. In your categorisation of "east" and "west" the Byzantines were very definitely "eastern". The Real Greeks, you might say, were the preChristian Greeks as far as scholars and historians were concerned.

  6. #45
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    Re: Infidels Revising History

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicen View Post
    If your enemy is actively working to destroy you religion, values and culture and pollute your country with filth and kill your people consistently for 1,400 years it is very natural to hate such people.

    And before you repeat the same old nonsense that it's not white people but the government, No that's false. Infact ordinary Europeans hate Islam far more than the government. Germans hate muslims far more than Merkel for example.

    If you want I can give a longer answer later.
    As a Muslim living in Germany I can confirm this.

  7. #46
    How would the unwary know Spicen's Avatar
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    Re: Infidels Revising History

    Quote Originally Posted by Amazigh View Post
    As Allah says in the Qur'an, our enemy is the devil and his kin (disbelievers).

    "O you who believe! Enter into submission, wholeheartedly, and do not follow the footsteps of Satan; he is to you an outright enemy." (Qur'an 2:208)

    "We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah of which He had not sent down [any] authority. And their refuge will be the Fire, and wretched is the residence of the wrongdoers." (Qur'an 3:151)

    Those people who you mentioned are not my enemies because of their skin color, culture, language, etc. But because they are disbelievers and deny the truth of Allah (SWT). Even if they were the nicest of people to us (which they definitely haven't been), I would still consider them enemies for this reason.
    You do realize their culture is based on the same principles and beliefs that caused Iblis to disobey Allah?
    "Oh glorious army! Oh great soldier, Come on gallant soldier, the sea of bastion smashers, Take the shield in one hand and the sword in the other, Let's advance through the border oh gallant soldier, May everything be victorious in this sea. Let's chant altogether "Allahu Akbar", Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar, May our army be ever victorious."

  8. #47
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    Re: Infidels Revising History

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicen View Post
    You do realize their culture is based on the same principles and beliefs that caused Iblis to disobey Allah?
    They don't have a shared "western" culture, they like to think so. But if you ask them define your shared western culture, they have trouble answering this question.
    By culture, I mean local traditions (which don't go against Islam). Just like there are differences between Muslims when it comes to culture.

    Allah (SWT) leads who he wills, thus if he wishes he can make these "white" people champions of Islam. Just like how the Turks had replaced the Arabs as champions of the deen.

  9. #48
    How would the unwary know Spicen's Avatar
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    Re: Infidels Revising History

    Quote Originally Posted by Amazigh View Post
    Allah (SWT) leads who he wills, thus if he wishes he can make these "white" people champions of Islam. Just like how the Turks had replaced the Arabs as champions of the deen.
    Sure pigs can fly as well.

    The fantasy world muslims live in.......sigh.
    "Oh glorious army! Oh great soldier, Come on gallant soldier, the sea of bastion smashers, Take the shield in one hand and the sword in the other, Let's advance through the border oh gallant soldier, May everything be victorious in this sea. Let's chant altogether "Allahu Akbar", Allahu Akbar, Allahu Akbar, May our army be ever victorious."

  10. #49
    Odan
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    Re: Infidels Revising History

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Outgunned? In the seventh century? There are probably fewer specialists in Persian history than Byzantine. You'll find an interesting summary of why views of Yarmouk have changed here: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistoria...xists_for_the/ and much the same rethinking has been going on about all mediaeval history over the past few years. Much the same thing applies with mediaeval Spain and the 100 Years' War and the Wars of the Roses. Historians have looked at logistics rather than memories.
    You also have a strange idea of attitudes to the Byzantines. Again, until recently the Byzantines were regarded as decadent and absurd. In your categorisation of "east" and "west" the Byzantines were very definitely "eastern". The Real Greeks, you might say, were the preChristian Greeks as far as scholars and historians were concerned.
    You are arguing against facts

    There is no point in continuing with you

    Its the same as continuing with someone who believes 1+1=3

    The Roman army was at least 4 times as large minimum. All sources agree upon this fact until very recently some Euroamerican comes out with nonsense.

    Outgunned in the sense the enemy had better weapons, equipment and armor.

    This isn't the same as the Mongols vs the rest of the world where the Mongols had a clear advantage with the use of the horse archer

    Nor is it the same as the colonial powers vs the rest of the world where the former had superior weapons and tactics

    The Muslims conquered all of these territories in permanent conquests while not having a real discernable advantage over the enemy.
    Last edited by Talwaar; 11-08-17 at 04:33 PM.

  11. #50
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    Re: Infidels Revising History

    Quote Originally Posted by Talwaar View Post
    You are arguing against facts

    There is no point in continuing with you

    Its the same as continuing with someone who believes 1+1=3

    The Roman army was at least 4 times as large minimum. All sources agree upon this fact until very recently some Euroamerican comes out with nonsense.

    Outgunned in the sense the enemy had better weapons, equipment and armor.

    This isn't the same as the Mongols vs the rest of the world where the Mongols had a clear advantage with the use of the horse archer

    Nor is it the same as the colonial powers vs the rest of the world where the former had superior weapons and tactics

    The Muslims conquered all of these territories in permanent conquests while not having a real discernable advantage over the enemy.
    What are the facts, though? The reference I gave gives good reason to regard the muslim accounts to be not exactly reliable.As a muslim you may be obliged to believe them. The rest of us are not.
    I don't actually see what the fuss is about. Whether there was one overwhelming victory or whether "there were probably a number of battles between the exhausted Byzantine forces and the vigorous, newly-inspired Arab armies, and it is quite clear that the Byzantine position did collapse within a few years, so the Arab military leaders were in all likelihood just as competent and successful as the Arab historians later described them as" isn't very important.

  12. #51
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    Re: Infidels Revising History

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicen View Post
    Sure pigs can fly as well.

    The fantasy world muslims live in.......sigh.
    So, "white" people becoming " champions of Islam" is about as likely as pigs flying, even if allah wills it.

  13. #52
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    Re: Infidels Revising History

    and in January, they took the word for their lives (did) [the sons of] Emesa [i.e., Ḥimṣ)], and many villages were ruined with killing by [the Arabs of] Muḥammad and a great number of people were killed and captives [were taken] from Galilee as far as Bēth [...] and those Arabs pitched camp beside [Damascus?] [...] and we saw everywhe[re...] and o[l]ive oil which they brought and them. And on the t[wenty six]th of May went S[ac[ella]rius]... cattle [...] [...] from the vicinity of Emesa and the Romans chased them [...] and on the tenth [of August] the Romans fled from the vicinity of Damascus [...] many [people] some 10,000. And at the turn [of the ye]ar the Romans came; and on the twentieth of August in the year n[ine hundred and forty-]seven there gathered in Gabitha [...] the Romans and great many people were ki[lled of] [the R]omans, [s]ome fifty thousand [....]


    The Seventh Century In The West-Syrian Chronicles Including Two Seventh-Century Syriac Apocalyptic Texts

  14. #53
    أنا مسلم AbuMubarak's Avatar
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    Re: Infidels Revising History

    Quote Originally Posted by Talwaar View Post


    A new trend I've seen is the kuffar are trying to revise history, especially concerning the battles fought by the early Muslims.

    It seems to be a new strategy to try and weaken the morale of the Muslims.

    For example, the Battle of Yarmouk.

    Its agreed that the Roman force was much larger than the Muslim force, some believe even 4 times as large.

    But if you go to the Wikipedia article on it you will find that the infidels have attempted to change the strength of forces.

    "Moderns estimates" putting the Byzantine army as the same size as the Muslim army.

    My question is why dont "modern estimates" dispute other battles such as the Battle of Cannae? Or other battles from the past.

    The Battle of Yarmouk was one of the most decisive and important battles in history. The Roman province of Syria was lost forever. All historic sources agree the Roman army was considered 100,000 strong. Now we see "modern estimates" of 15,000 for both sides.
    every aspect of our deen is under attack, nothing is safe from the kuffar and their corruption

    this means we have to know our deen,and leave off fidget spinners and other nonsense
    .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
    نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
    دولة الإسلامية باقية






  15. #54
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    Re: Infidels Revising History

    Quote Originally Posted by Talwaar View Post
    and in January, they took the word for their lives (did) [the sons of] Emesa [i.e., Ḥimṣ)], and many villages were ruined with killing by [the Arabs of] Muḥammad and a great number of people were killed and captives [were taken] from Galilee as far as Bēth [...] and those Arabs pitched camp beside [Damascus?] [...] and we saw everywhe[re...] and o[l]ive oil which they brought and them. And on the t[wenty six]th of May went S[ac[ella]rius]... cattle [...] [...] from the vicinity of Emesa and the Romans chased them [...] and on the tenth [of August] the Romans fled from the vicinity of Damascus [...] many [people] some 10,000. And at the turn [of the ye]ar the Romans came; and on the twentieth of August in the year n[ine hundred and forty-]seven there gathered in Gabitha [...] the Romans and great many people were ki[lled of] [the R]omans, [s]ome fifty thousand [....]


    The Seventh Century In The West-Syrian Chronicles Including Two Seventh-Century Syriac Apocalyptic Texts
    Do you mean this: https://muse.jhu.edu/article/244844/pdf
    And?
    The process involves examining all historical texts and checking their reliability and connexions. There's no more reason to believe Syriac chronicles - especially "Apocalyptic Texts" than any others:
    So what actually happened at Yarmuk? If we rely purely on near contemporary accounts (aka the Armenian and Syriac works), there wasn't really a decisive battle at all - several battles were described, but only in very skeletal terms, for actual descriptions of battles, we would have to turn to later sources and I don't think we can say definitively what actually happened based on that. It is worth mentioning that in James Howard-Johnston's reconstruction, the decisive battle was not at Yarmuk (which he suggests may be a minor battle), but a later battle near Damascus. ...Then again, why would any Armenian and Syriac writers talk about such a massive defeat? Sebeos (the Armenian historian) wrote very little about things outside Armenia, since he was at the mercy of what sources he had and the Armenian historiographical tradition almost exclusively focused on the history of Armenia. Yarmuk may well also be swallowed up in the Syriac accounts - they were after all experiencing a decade of almost continual defeats. ...

  16. #55
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    Re: Infidels Revising History

    Quote Originally Posted by Talwaar View Post
    and in January, they took the word for their lives (did) [the sons of] Emesa [i.e., Ḥimṣ)], and many villages were ruined with killing by [the Arabs of] Muḥammad and a great number of people were killed and captives [were taken] from Galilee as far as Bēth [...] and those Arabs pitched camp beside [Damascus?] [...] and we saw everywhe[re...] and o[l]ive oil which they brought and them. And on the t[wenty six]th of May went S[ac[ella]rius]... cattle [...] [...] from the vicinity of Emesa and the Romans chased them [...] and on the tenth [of August] the Romans fled from the vicinity of Damascus [...] many [people] some 10,000. And at the turn [of the ye]ar the Romans came; and on the twentieth of August in the year n[ine hundred and forty-]seven there gathered in Gabitha [...] the Romans and great many people were ki[lled of] [the R]omans, [s]ome fifty thousand [....]


    The Seventh Century In The West-Syrian Chronicles Including Two Seventh-Century Syriac Apocalyptic Texts
    In fact it's been suggested that most of the seventh century was forged, not to mention the whole if the eighth and ninth and part of the tenth :
    The phantom time hypothesis is a historical conspiracy theory asserted by Heribert Illig. First published in 1991, the hypothesis proposes a conspiracy by the Holy Roman Emperor Otto III, Pope Sylvester II, and possibly the Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII, to fabricate the Anno Domini dating system retrospectively, so that it placed them at the special year of AD 1000, and to rewrite history[1] to legitimize Otto's claim to the Holy Roman Empire. Illig believed that this was achieved through the alteration, misrepresentation, and forgery of documentary and physical evidence.[2] According to this scenario, the entire Carolingian period, including the figure of Charlemagne, would be a fabrication, with a "phantom time" of 297 years (AD 614–911) added to the Early Middle Ages. The proposal has found no favour among mainstream medievalists.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_hypothesis
    Even by my standards this is a little excessive.

  17. #56
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    Re: Infidels Revising History

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Do you mean this: https://muse.jhu.edu/article/244844/pdf
    And?
    The process involves examining all historical texts and checking their reliability and connexions. There's no more reason to believe Syriac chronicles - especially "Apocalyptic Texts" than any others:
    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    In fact it's been suggested that most of the seventh century was forged, not to mention the whole if the eighth and ninth and part of the tenth :https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_hypothesis
    Even by my standards this is a little excessive.
    Concession accepted

 

 

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