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    Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Christians believed they are no longer under the Law because they are told that Jesus had fulfilled and accomplished all the Laws for them when he ‘died’ at the cross and therefore, Christians today are freed from those Laws. In a way, as Jesus' disciples believe Jesus ‘died’ on the cross, it’s understandable why they would also say Jesus fulfilled all the Laws upon his ‘death’, as the only way you can have fulfilled and no longer be under all the laws is your own death for how can a man still observe or adhere to any law upon his death?? However, that only hold true to a dead man but how can the livings too be said to be no longer under the Law upon the death of another ? That’s like believing you are no longer under all the laws (civil laws, traffic laws, criminal laws, etc) because your God-fearing, law-abiding father had fulfilled all those laws on your behalf upon his death. Try to tell that to the police officer who stop you for speeding or for jumping the red light !!

    When Jesus said “For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished”, it shows that he too, understood that only death can free you from the Law.

    The phrase “until heaven and earth pass away” would imply the end of time or end of the world when everything as we know it will cease to exist and every living being would have died and it’s also a time when all can be said to have been accomplished (for each own good or bad) since no one will still be alive by then to accomplish anything. In other words, until death or such a time (when heaven and earth had passed away), everyone is subjected to the Law. Thus, whichever comes first (your death on earth or the end of time), those who have been observing and adhering to the Law in their respective lifetime on earth, would also be said to have accomplished in fulfilling all the Laws upon their death or “until heaven and earth pass away” when everything will cease to exist.

    So, the Christians whose main core beliefs are based on man-made teachings under the guise of divine teachings, are really delusional if they believe Jesus had fulfilled the Law for them and they are no longer under the Law.
    Last edited by JerryMyers; 06-08-17 at 02:32 AM.

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    meow Abisali's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    No such thing as Christians, those who call themselves Christian do not follow the teachings of Christ, they follow Saul/Paul. So it is no wonder they ignore the laws Isa (AS) followed.

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    التبع اليماني obaid_m's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Nope, they follow secular laws now.
    “Have you seen he who has taken as his god his [own] desire, and Allah has sent him astray due to knowledge and has set a seal upon his hearing and his heart and put over his vision a veil? So who will guide him after Allah ? Then will you not be reminded? And they say, “There is not but our worldly life; we die and live, and nothing destroys us except time.” And they have of that no knowledge; they are only assuming.” Quran 45:23-24

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    paul even called the law a "curse"

    that is foul
    "arm yourself with knowledge and laugh at the accusers"
    me - 2017

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    So if they don't follow the law they can freely worship idols? Which Catholics do anyway.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by obaid_m View Post
    Nope, they follow secular laws now.
    They always have, and Even Jesus did. i have seen this. Might want to reconsider.

    13 Submit yourselves for the Lord’s sake to every human authority: whether to the emperor, as the supreme authority, 14 or to governors, who are sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to commend those who do right. 15 For it is God’s will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish people. 16 Live as free people, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as God’s slaves. 17 Show proper respect to everyone, love the family of believers, fear God, honor the emperor.

    Mathew 17 Peter and His Master Pay Their Taxes

    Matthew 22:21 Jesus said "Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's; and to God the things that are God's."

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    Member Temasek's Avatar
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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    What do I know the early followers of Jesus were Jews, referred to as "FRIENDS"

    Jesus called them FRIENDS, I believe they follow the rules and laws of Isa (a.s) set by Allah.

    "Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you." (John 15:14-15)

    But Paul's Christian followers, "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ" (1 Corinthians 11). I don't think they have Shari'ah or Halakhah as a guide for life.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Christians believed they are no longer under the Law because they are told that Jesus had fulfilled and accomplished all the Laws for them when he ‘died’ at the cross and therefore, Christians today are freed from those Laws. In a way, as Jesus' disciples believe Jesus ‘died’ on the cross, it’s understandable why they would also say Jesus fulfilled all the Laws upon his ‘death’, as the only way you can have fulfilled and no longer be under all the laws is your own death for how can a man still observe or adhere to any law upon his death?? However, that only hold true to a dead man but how can the livings too be said to be no longer under the Law upon the death of another ? That’s like believing you are no longer under all the laws (civil laws, traffic laws, criminal laws, etc) because your God-fearing, law-abiding father had fulfilled all those laws on your behalf upon his death. Try to tell that to the police officer who stop you for speeding or for jumping the red light !!

    When Jesus said “For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished”, it shows that he too, understood that only death can free you from the Law.

    The phrase “until heaven and earth pass away” would imply the end of time or end of the world when everything as we know it will cease to exist and every living being would have died and it’s also a time when all can be said to have been accomplished (for each own good or bad) since no one will still be alive by then to accomplish anything. In other words, until death or such a time (when heaven and earth had passed away), everyone is subjected to the Law. Thus, whichever comes first (your death on earth or the end of time), those who have been observing and adhering to the Law in their respective lifetime on earth, would also be said to have accomplished in fulfilling all the Laws upon their death or “until heaven and earth pass away” when everything will cease to exist.

    So, the Christians whose main core beliefs are based on man-made teachings under the guise of divine teachings, are really delusional if they believe Jesus had fulfilled the Law for them and they are no longer under the Law.
    Would you mind clarifying what Law you are referring to? What laws do you see Christians believe no longer applies to them?

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Would you mind clarifying what Law you are referring to? What laws do you see Christians believe no longer applies to them?
    Hey Pip1 , long time.

    For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

    So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 5:17-20

    Other than Pauls theology , for what reasons do you reject the clear call of Jesus to Torah Abidance?

    Jesus didn't say " Believe in the Messiahs death on the cross , instead of the law , because my death will serve a curse and you no longer need the law"

    His statements are quite clear and his actions and lifestyle is a testament to his beliefs. According to the Bible , he walked this earth as a monotheistic Jew , following Jewish law and customs.

    Paul was the first Christian , both in creed and deeds.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    Hey Pip1 , long time.

    For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

    So if you ignore the least commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

    For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 5:17-20

    Other than Pauls theology , for what reasons do you reject the clear call of Jesus to Torah Abidance?

    Jesus didn't say " Believe in the Messiahs death on the cross , instead of the law , because my death will serve a curse and you no longer need the law"

    His statements are quite clear and his actions and lifestyle is a testament to his beliefs. According to the Bible , he walked this earth as a monotheistic Jew , following Jewish law and customs.

    Paul was the first Christian , both in creed and deeds.
    Long time indeed. You still haven't elaborated on what law you are referring to. Actually to be fair the OP is Jerrys so no reason why you should get the point he's making. Not sure I do that's why I was asking for some clarification before offering a reply. However, you have responded so one or two points.

    Firstly, yes Jesus was a Jew as indeed was Paul. The term Christian wasn't applied to followers of the Christ for many years, I'm not sure, but possibly way after Paul. So you can't really claim Paul as the first Christian, tho I'm sure he would have been more than happy to be named such. As a Jew Paul also followed the laws and customs ordained for Jews under the Law of Moses.

    So what Law? Gods moral Law, Judicial Law or the Ceremonial Law. Jews of course being under all aspects. The Gentiles however were not. They were never under the judicial law or the ceremonial law. Whereas Gods moral law applies to ALL.

    The law was never the means by which we can be made righteous before God. Its purpose was to define sin and delineate holiness. Jesus was not in any way negating the Law; He was showing us the reason for the Law. Jesus fulfilled the Law in that He was the only person to ever keep the whole Law, even in His heart, without sin. Jesus’ point in the Sermon on the Mount which you quote above, was that God sees the heart, and that we are actually held to a higher standard than external conformity to a set of rules. The Pharisees taught that, as long as you did the right things, you were “holy.” - Jesus said not so; “For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20).

    Jesus is teaching the necessity of having a heart to follow God. Putting on an act and going through the motions of serving God is dishonest. It is also futile, because God sees through the masks we wear. A person who pretends to be holy on the outside yet nurtures a sinful heart is a hypocrite. The Pharisees, whom everyone thought were holy, were guilty of just such dissimulation. God doesn’t want more religious activity. He wants a heart dedicated to Him. Holiness starts on the inside.

    In Matthew 5:21-22, Jesus says, “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.” The external command was “do not murder.” This is a good command - we should not murder people. But we make a mistake if we think that’s where our responsibility ends. Jesus said, in essence, God sees your heart. If you have hatred in your heart, then you are just as guilty as the murderer in God’s eyes. The Pharisees’ attitude was, “I am good; I haven’t murdered anyone.” Jesus countered, “No, you are guilty because there is murder in your heart.”

    It’s the difference between the letter of the Law and the spirit behind it. Keeping the letter of the Law doesn’t make you righteous. None of us can keep the whole Law perfectly, anyway. God requires a heart transformation; we must be born again.

    God is looking for more than the external practice of religion. People might seem holy to other people, but that’s not the standard. Over and over, the Bible stresses purity of heart before the One who examines the heart.

    As a Christian abiding by the Torah laws does not make me a Jew. Abiding by Gods moral law brings me closer to God, living in Christ closer still. However, Gods law also makes me realise my human frailty and weaknesses and my need for a God given Saviour. You show me one person who is able to abide by all Gods law perfectly and I would say that person lies. To become righteous through the law would mean keeping ALL Gods Law perfectly ALL the time. We all know that's not possible. You put your trust in Gods mercy and justice, it's worth remembering God cannot dispense His mercy at the cost of His justice both have to be satisfied. God alone can do this.

    By Gods grace.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    How nice to have you back, Pip ! Glad I decided to check into this forum today. I must admit that I have not visited this forum for quite some time too as it has been pretty quiet since you left !!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    The term Christian wasn't applied to followers of the Christ for many years, I'm not sure, but possibly way after Paul. So you can't really claim Paul as the first Christian, tho I'm sure he would have been more than happy to be named such. As a Jew Paul also followed the laws and customs ordained for Jews under the Law of Moses.
    Actually you are quite right – ‘Christians’ is the original name given to the disciples of Paul, not Jesus. This was recorded in Acts 11:25-26 :-

    “Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.”. ‘The disciples’ here are the ‘great numbers of people’ who Paul and Barnabas taught.

    So, it’s not wrong to say that Christians are the followers of Paul, not Jesus. Probably it was later associated with Jesus because of the ‘Christ’ in the ‘Christian’.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    So what Law? Gods moral Law, Judicial Law or the Ceremonial Law. Jews of course being under all aspects. The Gentiles however were not. They were never under the judicial law or the ceremonial law. Whereas Gods moral law applies to ALL.
    The same Law which Paul referenced when he said “Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes” – Romans 10:4 NIV or “For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.” - Romans 10:4 NLT or “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” – Romans 10:4 KJV. THAT Law !

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    The law was never the means by which we can be made righteous before God. Its purpose was to define sin and delineate holiness. Jesus was not in any way negating the Law; He was showing us the reason for the Law. Jesus fulfilled the Law in that He was the only person to ever keep the whole Law, even in His heart, without sin. Jesus’ point in the Sermon on the Mount which you quote above, was that God sees the heart, and that we are actually held to a higher standard than external conformity to a set of rules. The Pharisees taught that, as long as you did the right things, you were “holy.” - Jesus said not so; “For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 5:20).
    Jesus is teaching the necessity of having a heart to follow God. Putting on an act and going through the motions of serving God is dishonest. It is also futile, because God sees through the masks we wear. A person who pretends to be holy on the outside yet nurtures a sinful heart is a hypocrite. The Pharisees, whom everyone thought were holy, were guilty of just such dissimulation. God doesn’t want more religious activity. He wants a heart dedicated to Him. Holiness starts on the inside.
    In Matthew 5:21-22, Jesus says, “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment.” The external command was “do not murder.” This is a good command - we should not murder people. But we make a mistake if we think that’s where our responsibility ends. Jesus said, in essence, God sees your heart. If you have hatred in your heart, then you are just as guilty as the murderer in God’s eyes. The Pharisees’ attitude was, “I am good; I haven’t murdered anyone.” Jesus countered, “No, you are guilty because there is murder in your heart.”
    It’s the difference between the letter of the Law and the spirit behind it. Keeping the letter of the Law doesn’t make you righteous. None of us can keep the whole Law perfectly, anyway. God requires a heart transformation; we must be born again.
    God is looking for more than the external practice of religion. People might seem holy to other people, but that’s not the standard. Over and over, the Bible stresses purity of heart before the One who examines the heart.
    Yes, of course, the Law by itself or putting an act of observing the Law don’t make you righteous before God. As you said, ‘it’s the purity of the heart’ in observing and adhering to the Law (of God) that makes you righteous before God. However, It’s also thru the Law that you are guided towards God. Similarly, just believing in the prophets without following what they preached don’t make you righteous before God but it’s the purity of your heart in following the words and teachings of these prophets that make you righteous before God.

    So, saying Jesus is the end of the Law, and by just believing this makes you right with God sounds like someone wanted to take the short-cut to the Kingdom of God but that’s not how it works. Everyone is subjected to the Law of God - no one, not even the prophets, including Jesus, is excluded from the Law. If these prophets of God are not excluded from the Law, what makes you think by believing Jesus is the end of the Law makes you excluded from the Law that is, make it right with God ? God said that ?? Jesus himself said that ?? Oh ya, I forgot – you are a Christian, you are a follower of Paul, that explains everything !

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    To become righteous through the law would mean keeping ALL Gods Law perfectly ALL the time. We all know that's not possible. You put your trust in Gods mercy and justice, it's worth remembering God cannot dispense His mercy at the cost of His justice both have to be satisfied. God alone can do this
    Why would you say keeping ALL God’s Law perfectly ALL the time is NOT possible ?? Which God’s Law that you think is impossible to keep ALL the time ?? God gave His Law because we have the capability to keep them perfectly ALL the time. Its only a question of whether you want to develop that capability or not.

    God sent His chosen prophets thru the ages of time to guide us and teach us so that we have that capability to resist temptations and keep ALL His Law perfectly ALL the time. Its only when we forgot about God that keeps us away from keeping ALL God’s Law perfectly ALL the time. Just think of God all the time and trust me, you will have the capability to keep ALL of His Law ALL the time.

    Its only people who do NOT want to develop that capability will justify themselves by making statements like “We all know that's (keeping the Law all the time) not possible”.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    How nice to have you back, Pip ! Glad I decided to check into this forum today. I must admit that I have not visited this forum for quite some time too as it has been pretty quiet since you left !!
    Yeah well, it's not that welcoming for non Muslims, this section anyway. I can understand why some join make a post never to return. For me I guess I must like the banter.


    Actually you are quite right – ‘Christians’ is the original name given to the disciples of Paul, not Jesus. This was recorded in Acts 11:25-26 :-

    “Then Barnabas went to Tarsus to look for Saul, and when he found him, he brought him to Antioch. So for a whole year Barnabas and Saul met with the church and taught great numbers of people. The disciples were called Christians first at Antioch.”. ‘The disciples’ here are the ‘great numbers of people’ who Paul and Barnabas taught.

    So, it’s not wrong to say that Christians are the followers of Paul, not Jesus. Probably it was later associated with Jesus because of the ‘Christ’ in the ‘Christian’.
    Read up about the early Christians, they were first known as followers of the way. The first followers were undoubtedly the disciples, all of which bar one were martyred for the Gospel of Jesus Christ they taught. I always had Peter down as the first, seeing it was Peter that kind of founded the "church". If you read Acts leading up to 11:25-26. Some of the disciples are mentioned as teaching the Gospel, seeing as Paul taught the same Gospel - the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Then I'm good with that. The term Christian may well have derived from the name Christ., very probably did. The teachings are Jesus' so it makes sense.


    The same Law which Paul referenced when he said “Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes” – Romans 10:4 NIV or “For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.” - Romans 10:4 NLT or “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” – Romans 10:4 KJV. THAT Law !
    I believe we touched on what is meant by Jesus fulfilling the Law, or Jesus is the culmination of the Law in other posts. So is it worth rehashing? But this sums it up ~ As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God ~

    Yes, of course, the Law by itself or putting an act of observing the Law don’t make you righteous before God. As you said, ‘it’s the purity of the heart’ in observing and adhering to the Law (of God) that makes you righteous before God. However, It’s also thru the Law that you are guided towards God. Similarly, just believing in the prophets without following what they preached don’t make you righteous before God but it’s the purity of your heart in following the words and teachings of these prophets that make you righteous before God.
    I beg leave to disagree here the Law is a guide for mankind for sure, it in itself does not lead you to God. Unless of course you keep it perfectly, which you can't. Likewise the prophets were sent to guide mankind, in the case of the Bible to point to the Christ, which is the way to righteousness. Purity of heart before the Lord is a given.

    So, saying Jesus is the end of the Law, and by just believing this makes you right with God sounds like someone wanted to take the short-cut to the Kingdom of God but that’s not how it works. Everyone is subjected to the Law of God - no one, not even the prophets, including Jesus, is excluded from the Law. If these prophets of God are not excluded from the Law, what makes you think by believing Jesus is the end of the Law makes you excluded from the Law that is, make it right with God ? God said that ?? Jesus himself said that ?? Oh ya, I forgot – you are a Christian, you are a follower of Paul, that explains everything !
    There are no shortcuts Jerry. You may believe God arbitrarily forgives sins of whom He wills without consideration of His divine justice, then fair enough. For a Christian it's hard work but then I always find things that are harder to achieve in this life - and possibly the next - are worth more.

    Jesus is recorded as saying in Mark 12:28–31, “‘Which commandment is the most important of all?’ Jesus answered, ‘The most important is, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.” The second is this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” There is no other commandment greater than these.’”

    It's said that ALL the law and the Prophets hang on these two things. LOVE God without measure and your neighbour. Take a moment to consider the implications of these two seemingly simple commands.

    Why would you say keeping ALL God’s Law perfectly ALL the time is NOT possible ?? Which God’s Law that you think is impossible to keep ALL the time ?? God gave His Law because we have the capability to keep them perfectly ALL the time. Its only a question of whether you want to develop that capability or not.
    Then you would be perfect. Only God is perfect.

    God sent His chosen prophets thru the ages of time to guide us and teach us so that we have that capability to resist temptations and keep ALL His Law perfectly ALL the time. Its only when we forgot about God that keeps us away from keeping ALL God’s Law perfectly ALL the time. Just think of God all the time and trust me, you will have the capability to keep ALL of His Law ALL the time.
    If that were so Jerry, the prophets were to teach us the ability to attain perfection in regards to keeping the law - perfectly - then they did not do a very good job of it did they? There are none walk this earth without sin. Except for the Christ of course. Have you ever lied Jerry? Stole something? Been jealous or coveted something someone else has? If you can in honesty say you haven't then congratulations you're on the way to being the perfect human.

    Its only people who do NOT want to develop that capability will justify themselves by making statements like “We all know that's (keeping the Law all the time) not possible”.
    Give over Jerry. Mankind are sinful, that makes us imperfect by Gods Holy Standard. In our fallen state we fail to measure up to that most Holy Standard. We can strive all we want and indeed it's good to do so BUT we will always fall short. That's why we need the grace of God.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Read up about the early Christians, they were first known as followers of the way. The first followers were undoubtedly the disciples, all of which bar one were martyred for the Gospel of Jesus Christ they taught. I always had Peter down as the first, seeing it was Peter that kind of founded the "church". If you read Acts leading up to 11:25-26. Some of the disciples are mentioned as teaching the Gospel, seeing as Paul taught the same Gospel - the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Then I'm good with that. The term Christian may well have derived from the name Christ., very probably did. The teachings are Jesus' so it makes sense.
    I think Acts 11:25-26 was quite clear that the disciples who was taught by Paul and Barnabas are the ones who are called ‘Christians’ first and it’s obviously clear that Paul have a greater influence over the existing disciples of Jesus that his teachings have overshadowed that of Jesus’ teachings. Case in point, Jesus never preached original sin, trinity or believing he died and rose again will save you but he preaches only those who submitted to the Will of God will be saved that is, enter the Kingdom of Heaven.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    I believe we touched on what is meant by Jesus fulfilling the Law, or Jesus is the culmination of the Law in other posts. So is it worth rehashing? But this sums it up ~ As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God ~
    Well, perhaps you should elaborate your understanding of Jesus is the end or the culmination of the Law and how does that impact you as a Christian. I may be wrong here, but most of the folks who read that statement have the understanding that by just believing in Jesus (that is, he died for your sin and rose again) then, you are said to have made right with God and you are no longer under the Law because Jesus had fulfilled them for you. Is that a correct understanding ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    I beg leave to disagree here the Law is a guide for mankind for sure, it in itself does not lead you to God. Unless of course you keep it perfectly, which you can't. Likewise the prophets were sent to guide mankind, in the case of the Bible to point to the Christ, which is the way to righteousness. Purity of heart before the Lord is a given.
    I beg leave to disagree here – The OT does not point to Jesus but the OT points to God and His Righteousness. Its only the NT that points to Jesus and uses the OT verses which are referenced to God to point to Jesus. Jesus is just a servant of God which even his disciples like Peter believed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    There are no shortcuts Jerry. You may believe God arbitrarily forgives sins of whom He wills without consideration of His divine justice, then fair enough. For a Christian it's hard work but then I always find things that are harder to achieve in this life - and possibly the next - are worth more.
    For a Christian its hard work ?? How hard can it be IF to make right with God, you just have to believe Jesus died and rose again and you are no longer under the Law as Jesus had fulfilled them for you and your sin have been washed by Jesus ?? That’s like saying you don’t have to study for your exams but just believe that the examiners will give you good marks and you will have good marks !!

    However, you are right about ‘things that are harder to achieve in this life - and possibly the next - are worth more’ and that’s why you find the Muslims’ way to God seems harder to achieve (praying 5 times a day, fasting in the month of Ramadan, women having to dress modestly, etc, etc).

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Jesus is recorded as saying in Mark 12:28–31, “‘Which commandment is the most important of all?’ Jesus answered, ‘The most important is, “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.” The second is this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” There is no other commandment greater than these.’”
    It's said that ALL the law and the Prophets hang on these two things. LOVE God without measure and your neighbour. Take a moment to consider the implications of these two seemingly simple commands.
    There’s a reason why its said that ALL the law and the Prophets hang on these two things – Love for God and Love for thy neighbours. These two actually summed up the whole purpose of your very existence. Love for God is your relationship with God and love for your neighbours is your relationship with your fellow mankind and your responsibility to the community. In other words, you have to keep the Law of God to have a relationship with God and you have to keep the law of the community (respect, moral, etc) to have a good relationship with your fellow mankind, irrespective of colours, race, ethnics and status. Thus, to make right with God, you must maintain good relationship with God AND good relationship with your fellow mankind. If you just maintain good relationship with God and ignore your responsibilities with your fellow mankind, your community then you are NOT making right with God and likewise, if you just maintain good relationship with your fellow mankind and ignore your relationship with God, then, it goes without saying, you are NOT making right with God too.

    By the way, did you see anything about having to believe that a prophet of God had to die and rose again to make it right with God here ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Then you would be perfect. Only God is perfect.
    Sure, only God is in an absolute perfection state. But we are not talking of an absolute perfection here, we are talking about keeping the Law, that is, observing and adhering to the Law all the time to our best human capability. The key word here, is ‘capability’ meaning you have the potential BUT you have to work hard to develop that potential. We are not perfect in the sense that we can fall ill, be infected by diseases, grow old and become senile, etc under which cases, we will not be able to keep ALL the Law at all time but when we are mentally and physically able, wouldn’t you think we should prove our love to God by keeping ALL the Law ALL the time INSTEAD of just making excuses of NOT keeping ALL His Law ALL the time as something impossible to achieve ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    If that were so Jerry, the prophets were to teach us the ability to attain perfection in regards to keeping the law - perfectly - then they did not do a very good job of it did they? There are none walk this earth without sin. Except for the Christ of course. Have you ever lied Jerry? Stole something? Been jealous or coveted something someone else has? If you can in honesty say you haven't then congratulations you're on the way to being the perfect human.
    Do you always blame your teachers/lecturers or everyone else EXCEPT yourself when you have bad grades or things don’t go your way, Pip ? Probably yes and that’s why I can understand why you would say the prophets did not do a very good job.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Give over Jerry. Mankind are sinful, that makes us imperfect by Gods Holy Standard. In our fallen state we fail to measure up to that most Holy Standard. We can strive all we want and indeed it's good to do so BUT we will always fall short. That's why we need the grace of God.
    Well, man are not born sinful BUT perfect as in the ‘image of God’ which is obviously perfect in all sense. It’s the upbringing, the society, the company, the environment that we are exposed to and the choices we made that can make us imperfect. We need the grace of God not because we always fall short but rather more because no one can say that he is saved as only God can determine who is saved, NOT the belief that a prophet died and rose again and certainly NOT the belief that a prophet died for the sin of man.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    This conversation is always interesting because it exposes what I believe to be the fundamental flaw of Christianity.

    I believe it's safe to say that Jesus was a Torah abiding 'Jewish' Prophet. His 'ministry' consisted of affirming himself as the Messiah and acquiring salvation through the love of God , righteous deeds , and keeping the commandments , along with the revelation ( injeel ) Allah granted him.

    Both the Quran and the Bible agree that Prophets were sent to their own people.

    This is truly where the whole confusion arises .. Jesus (pbuh) was sent as a Jewish Prophet and his role was not that of a universal Prophethood.

    All of us agree that Jesus was not successful as per the political expectations of the Jewish Messiah. Surely , this is by Allah's destiny and decree , but nevertheless ..
    He was not in a position of political leadership , while this is a necessary component in delivering a global message. Rather , his own people attempted to crucify him and his second coming is necessary in order to complete his religious fulfillments.

    Certain things ..

    1) Jesus (pbuh) focused on propagating his Prophethood / Messiah to his fellow Jews , which is in accordance with his Prophetic task.

    The Biblical Jesus was not converting gentiles to Jews and commanding them to keep the Sabbath and moral code. His religious interactions with gentiles was out of necessity and immediate mercy , rather than a religious obligation.

    2) He did not preach original sin , trinity , abolishing the law , or that salvation comes down to believing that he died on the cross and rose.

    According to the Bible , the Messiah called to the religion of Moses and the Prophets with an additonal revelation ie The Gospel.

    3) His religion was not intended for the Gentiles , and that is why this dilemma exists in the first place.

    Following the Crucifixion' / ascension of Jesus , his direct disciples maintained the offering of Sacrifices for sins , and they lived as Jews , keeping all dietery / moral customs. What separates them from the other Jews was their faith in the Messiah , and that is all.

    The disciples did not propogate 'Christianity' to the ignorant gentile world. As you would expect , their beliefs and practices were consistent with what we know of the Biblical Jesus.


    1) If Jesus and his disciples were not on a mission of converting all peoples on earth to their religion , then why would you become a Jew?

    Jews do not believe that their laws are mandatory for non Jews. Their expectation of faith as it pertains to gentles are Noah's laws. They do however object strongly to any form of idolatry ( and they consider Trinity as such )

    Here is where the problem lies. Where does the gentile fit? .. I would argue that gentles , in reality , have no place in this context and ultimately , Jesus was not sent to gentile.. Hence , the confusion ..

    Rather , what is obligatory is following the final Prophet Muhammad (saws) who affirmed his predecessors and was granted the universal law , and revelation.

    But just to further anaylze through the Christian paradigm ..
    Paul , the most popular author of books that are within the New Testament brings forth a host of further problems , and is truly the inital culprit as far as Christian theological deviation is concerned.

    1) Paul appoints himself as the apostle to the gentiles. (Something Jesus himself did not focus upon )

    2) Paul deviates , innovates and contradicts the theology of Jesus. From alluding to a binitarian form of 'monotheism' ( Eventually became the Trinity ) , hatred for the Law , a new salvation method , original sin , etc.

    3) The disciples of Jesus had tensions with Paul and this is stated in certain places of his writings.

    It is extremely important to acknowledge that Paul was not accepted amongst many first century 'Jewish Christians'. Early sects like the Ebionites considered him an apostate. Nazerines also reject him as a deviant and these sects claim to be the true orthodox, and upon the beliefs of the disciples.


    So what I am curious of , is why should anyone believe in his claim to revelations? ( When in fact those revelations are nothing but deviating from the teachings of Jesus? )

    I guess the answer is quite simple. "Because it's in the Bible , that's why. "

    Well why must you accept the book at face value ?

    - Jesus did not authenticate any of it's writers , which obviously means that he didn't authenticate what they wrote.

    - The original gospel writers ( and most importantly Paul ) never met Jesus. The gospels are based on other oral traditions circulating around their respective times .. Paul's theology is simply an innovation and a deviation. We are left to simply trust in his claims to revelation.

    - Various gospels did not enter the New Testament canon. Which means , it is highly possible that relevant information is being neglected.

    - The most earliest Christians had differences in Theology. From what they considered authorative scripture , specifics of monotheism , the law , etc.

    Sects like the ebionites would accept only the Gospel of Matthew / Peter , while rejecting all of Paul ( This sect is from within the first century )

    So why believe the Bible in it's entirety is authoritative ? Can Paul be upon the truth , simply because church fathers assumed his truthfulness?

    Wa Allahu alam

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    Sects like the ebionites would accept only the Gospel of Matthew / Peter , while rejecting all of Paul ( This sect is from within the first century )
    Actually it may be a gospel according to James the Just and not Peter ( not 1 Peter , 2 Peter )

    Allah knows best

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Indeed God knows best.

    For my eyes have seen Your salvation, which You have prepared in the sight of all people, a light (1) for revelation to the Gentiles, and (2) for glory to Your people Israel.
    Luke 2:30-32

    Said of Jesus. Jesus' ministry two-fold. Firstly, because he was born of the Children of Israel, his first mission was to reveal himself and God to the Israelites. They were God's chosen people - the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The Qur'an confirms this :

    And commemorate Our servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, possessors of power and vision. Verily, We did choose them for a special (purpose) -- proclaiming the message of the hereafter.
    Surat-us Sad (38):45-46

    Children of Israel, call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all others (for My message).
    Surat-ul Baqara (2):47

    Following the death and resurrection of Jesus, one of his disciples addressed the Israelites as follows:

    And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, "Through your offspring (descendants), all people on earth will be blessed." When God raised his servant (Jesus the Messiah), He sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways.
    Acts 3:25-26

    The second part of Jesus' mission was most significant. That mission was to give his life a ransom for the sins of all mankind (1 Timothy 2:4-6). This was the blessing that was for all nations, the good news that Jesus, by the shed blood of his suffering on the cross, paid the penalty for the sins of mankind, and that whoever accepts this blessing of salvation is assured eternal life with God.

    This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to ALL nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
    Luke 24:46-47

    The Scriptures are clear that this salvation in Jesus the Messiah is available for ALL people, both Jews and Gentiles of ALL nations.

    You will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in ALL Judea, and Samaria, and to the ENDS OF THE EARTH.

    Jesus himself confirmed the universal nature of his mission when he declared these words:

    I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.
    John 8:12

    Jesus is referring to himself as that special blessing or revelation of mercy for all people, for all mankind. The Light of the WORLD. That's pretty all encompassing. Even the Qur'an points to the universal mission of Jesus. God Himself is quoted as saying:

    ... and (We wish) to appoint him (Jesus) as a Sign unto men ("ayat-al linnasi"), and a mercy from Us.
    Surat-u Maryam (19):21

    A sign unto men! Not some, not the Israelites but a SIGN UNTO MEN.

    Like it or not Jesus was sent to ALL mankind, as a mercy and a blessing. You as Muslims choose to reject Him. Of course your choice.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    IIndeed God knows best.

    For my eyes have seen Your salvation, which You have prepared in the sight of all people, a light (1) for revelation to the Gentiles, and (2) for glory to Your people Israel.
    Luke 2:30-32

    Said of Jesus. Jesus' ministry two-fold. Firstly, because he was born of the Children of Israel, his first mission was to reveal himself and God to the Israelites. They were God's chosen people - the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The Qur'an confirms this :

    And commemorate Our servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, possessors of power and vision. Verily, We did choose them for a special (purpose) -- proclaiming the message of the hereafter.
    Surat-us Sad (38):45-46

    Children of Israel, call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and that I preferred you to all others (for My message). Surat-ul Baqara (2):47
    Jesus was only sent to the Jews and he never preach to the Gentiles. So, what 2-folds ministry are you talking about ??

    Quran Surah Sad Chapter 38 was about God, among other things, talking of His faithful servants. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are NOT the only ones God spoke of in Quran Surah Sad. He also spoke of David and Solomon (Quran 38:30-34), of Job (Quran 38:41-44), Ishmael and Elisha (Quran 38:48). So, in quoting the Quran, don’t pick and choose the verses to suit your understanding as you did with your own scriptures.

    As for Quran Surah Al Baqarah Chapter 2 verse 47, yes, God favoured the Israelites but, they got complacent and broke their covenant with God. This is what Elijah confirmed to God in 1 Kings 19:10 - “I have been very zealous for the Lord God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, torn down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too.”

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    IFollowing the death and resurrection of Jesus, one of his disciples addressed the Israelites as follows:

    And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, "Through your offspring (descendants), all people on earth will be blessed." When God raised his servant (Jesus the Messiah), He sent him first to you to bless you by turning each of you from your wicked ways. Acts 3:25-26
    Notice something very telling here, Pip ? Even after God have raised up Jesus to Himself (that is, after the ascension), Peter STILL saw Jesus as a SERVANT of God NOT as a God or God-equal. What does that tell us about Christianity belief today ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    IThe second part of Jesus' mission was most significant. That mission was to give his life a ransom for the sins of all mankind (1 Timothy 2:4-6). This was the blessing that was for all nations, the good news that Jesus, by the shed blood of his suffering on the cross, paid the penalty for the sins of mankind, and that whoever accepts this blessing of salvation is assured eternal life with God.
    Whose words are those in 1 Timothy 2:4-6, Pip ?? God ?? Jesus ?? Well, Pip, as Jesus had warned – test the spirits of ALL men who claimed they are men of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    IThis is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to ALL nations, beginning at Jerusalem. Luke 24:46-47
    Do you even know why Jesus said he will suffer, Pip ? Or what was he referring to when he said he will be raised on the third day ?? Well, Pip, it had nothing to do with him becoming Count Dracula who also rose from the dead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    IThe Scriptures are clear that this salvation in Jesus the Messiah is available for ALL people, both Jews and Gentiles of ALL nations.
    You will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in ALL Judea, and Samaria, and to the ENDS OF THE EARTH.
    How can the NT be clear when its said the author of Luke and Acts was an anonymous writer.? Jesus himself never claimed he was sent to BOTH Jews and Gentiles, so, who do you follow, Pip ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    IJesus himself confirmed the universal nature of his mission when he declared these words:

    I am the Light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.
    John 8:12
    “I am the light of the world” is NOT a confirmation from Jesus of his ‘universal nature of his mission’ - THAT WAS WHAT YOU WANTED TO BELIEVE but it was a response from Jesus to the Pharisees who disputed his testimony. It’s a figurative of speech which was closely associated to his parable – ‘Lamp under a bushel’.
    In the Christological context, the use of the title Light of the World is similar to the Bread of Life title which obviously cannot be that every bread you eat in this world means you are eating Jesus because Jesus declared ‘I am the bread of life’.

    Jesus also use the same term “the light of the world” to refer to his disciples (Matthew 5:14) which obviously cannot be your understanding of “his confirmation of the universal nature of his mission” too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    IThat's pretty all encompassing. Even the Qur'an points to the universal mission of Jesus. God Himself is quoted as saying:

    ... and (We wish) to appoint him (Jesus) as a Sign unto men ("ayat-al linnasi"), and a mercy from Us.
    Surat-u Maryam (19):21

    A sign unto men! Not some, not the Israelites but a SIGN UNTO MEN.
    Well, before that verse, Mary was asking the Angel Gabriel how was it possible for her to conceive a son when no man has touched her. The angel responded “Thus said your Lord, ‘its easy for Me. We will make him a sign for mankind and a mercy from Us’”. The sign here does not mean Jesus was sent to ALL mankind but the sign was the evidence of God’s Creative Power to create anything that He willed. In this case, Mary was a virgin and under the normal circumstances, it would not be possible for her to conceive any child when no man had touched her (sexually). For God, however, that is not a problem for He can will anything He wished. So, Jesus was that sign of God’s Will and His ability to will anything He wished to all mankind who ever doubt that He indeed is their God, the ONE and ONLY the All-Powerful Creator.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Like it or not Jesus was sent to ALL mankind, as a mercy and a blessing. You as Muslims choose to reject Him. Of course your choice.
    So, like it or not, Jesus was NOT sent to ALL mankind, BUT he was sent only to the ‘lost sheep’ of Israel which Jesus himself said, unless, of course, you are telling me Jesus did not know what he was talking about. You as Christians choose to reject what Jesus CLEARLY said and chose to follow the doubtful words of others whom Jesus asked you to test their spirits.. Of course your choice.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    @Pip1

    Feel free to dispute any of these points , these are the perspectives I have come to know , and opposition will only benefit my understanding.

    1) Any passage relating to Jesus as a universal Messenger is either , not historically accurate or taken out of context .

    2) Related to us by Paul or those whom he influenced , and not followed by true orthodox Jewish Christians.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1) Strange how you did not mention this verse , and probably the most direct 'statement' of the 'Biblical Jesus'.

    "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," [Matthew 28:19]

    - You mentioned Luke 2:30-32 , but this is the words of Simeon , as he held baby Jesus in the Temple. Statements of contemporaries are not evidences for the teachings of Jesus , only his words and actions are. [Luke 24:46-47] and [Matthew 28:19] are more solid.

    You can approach the Bible through different methods , either critically or like a fundamentalist. The fundamentalist approach would be to assume God inspired all the books and the authors , God intervened and made sure the correct Gospels were included - and the deviant ones were neglected , and all early sects which disagree with writers and theology presented by certain gospels are to be shunned - on the basis that what we have now is what God intended , and therefore it is accurate.

    But looking at the matter more carefully we can deduce a few things ( And these were mentioned by Bible scholars , it's not my own perspective )

    1) In both Luke and Matthew , Jesus spoke to his immediate disciples.
    2) The context of these statements were after Jesus alleged resurrection , which means the only ones who 'may' have heard this command were the disciples themselves.

    3) None of the immediate disciples of Jesus went out and obeyed this command.

    a) The status of the disciples is undisputed. They are the best and most concerned of their dedication to Jesus. Had Jesus actually said these words , it would have been compulsory for them to comply.

    b) The disciples did not comply with these alleged commands , but instead they maintained following their Jewish customs and were preaching only to their fellow Jewish kin , affirming Jesus as the Messiah which is what is necessary to believe in.

    Considering this historical reality along with relying on the default position during the life of Jesus ( Sent only to the Jews ) , the safer opinion for critical engagement with the Bible , would be to say that Jesus actually never said these words , or at most we can say that they were not accurately relayed to us / Jesus intention was not what the text may appear to say - and this can be known with certainty due to the actions of the ones who allegedly heard these words.

    If the above is true , then a logical question to ask is "Why is it in the Bible then?"

    - It is not in every Gospel
    - The Bible we have is founded on , and influenced by elements of Pauline Doctrine.
    - Not all sects interpret the passages as modern Christians do ( Ebionites , considering the statement is found in Matthew)

    Paul was obviously an influential figure in early Christianity. He was claiming to receive revelation from Jesus , and was converting the gentile population.

    - If I am not mistaken the early accepted Church fathers were gentiles themselves , which means they were obviously in favour of him and his theology , along with their opposition to what opposes it ( They considered the Ebionites as heretics )

    1) Paul himself is a heretic due to his opposition to Jesus and the Disciples.
    2) Accepting Jesus does not necessitate accepting Paul and his innovations.

    Obviously as a Muslim I intend to encourage and promote Islam and calling all peoples to this religion. But I believe the most coherent understanding of Christianity as it would relate to a gentile understanding , would either be ..

    a) Complete conversion to Judaism , as it understood by sects clinging on to early Jewish Christianity ( Nazerrines / Ebionites ) , along with believing that Jesus was the chosen Messiah.

    Believing in Jewish Christianity would mean a rejection of the Trinity , a rejection the theology of Paul , and complying to all the commandments as Jesus advised his followers.

    b) or having faith similar to the gentile woman who Jesus is reported to have called a 'dog'. Affirming Jesus as a Prophet and the Messiah , and rejecting idolatry. This is due to the fact that neither Jesus nor his disciples went out preaching , and the Jewish expectation of non Jews is not equal with that of a Jew.

    ( Ultimately I believe both are false , the Prophet Muhammad (saws) has established the truth regarding all this deviancy - and at this point opposing him is opposing both Jesus and God. )

    That's all for now.
    Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 01-10-17 at 06:05 PM.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    x
    Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 06-10-17 at 02:42 PM.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    no, they dont, "the curse has been lifted" in the context of what bool, i mean paul was saying in the books he wrote
    "arm yourself with knowledge and laugh at the accusers"
    me - 2017

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    @Pip1

    Feel free to dispute any of these points , these are the perspectives I have come to know , and opposition will only benefit my understanding.

    1)Any passage relating to Jesus as a universal Messenger is either , not historically accurate or taken out of context .
    Would you mind explaining that?

    2) Related to us by Paul or those whom he influenced , and not followed by true orthodox Jewish Christians.
    Who do you class as true orthodox Jewish Christians? Would for example the disciples fit this criteria? As Paul was primarily concerned with delivering the Gospel to the Gentiles who was he supposed to have influenced?
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1) Strange how you did not mention this verse , and probably the most direct 'statement' of the 'Biblical Jesus'.

    "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit," [Matthew 28:19]
    Not strange, as you are aware there is some controversy surrounding this verse, (which is why I’m guessing you brought it up) the long ending not found in older manuscripts etc. However, there is a majority opinion among scholars that it has every right to be included in its long form. For myself, I don’t believe it in itself changes any doctrine that isn’t found elsewhere in the Bible.

    - You mentioned Luke 2:30-32 , but this is the words of Simeon , as he held baby Jesus in the Temple. Statements of contemporaries are not evidences for the teachings of Jesus , only his words and actions are. [Luke 24:46-47] and [Matthew 28:19] are more solid.
    Well of course, I thought that was clear. I thought it also clear it is not to be taken as evidences of the teachings of the man (Jesus) but testimony of the man (Jesus) and what was prophesied about him. Simeon echoed the prophet Isaiah. A messianic prophesy that the suffering servant and Messiah (Jesus) will restore the tribes of Israel (mission first fold) and a God given light to the Gentiles (mission second fold) Gods given salvation to the ends of the earth. I accept that Muslims will interpret this in a different way, to be expected. That doesn’t have any impact on the centuries of scholars accepted interpretation that the suffering servant discourse in Isaiah is about none other but Jesus. So that’s Israel, the Gentiles and to the end of the earth covered. Seems to imply that Jesus was sent for ALL mankind for ALL time. So no need for any other prophet after Jesus.

    Isaiah 49 5-6

    5 “And now the Lord says,
    Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
    To bring Jacob back to Him,
    So that Israel is gathered to Him
    (For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the Lord,
    And My God shall be My strength),
    6 Indeed He says,
    ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
    To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
    And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
    I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
    That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’


    You can approach the Bible through different methods , either critically or like a fundamentalist. The fundamentalist approach would be to assume God inspired all the books and the authors , God intervened and made sure the correct Gospels were included - and the deviant ones were neglected , and all early sects which disagree with writers and theology presented by certain gospels are to be shunned - on the basis that what we have now is what God intended , and therefore it is accurate.

    But looking at the matter more carefully we can deduce a few things ( And these were mentioned by Bible scholars , it's not my own perspective )

    1) In both Luke and Matthew , Jesus spoke to his immediate disciples.
    2) The context of these statements were after Jesus alleged resurrection , which means the only ones who 'may' have heard this command were the disciples themselves.
    3) None of the immediate disciples of Jesus went out and obeyed this command.
    Jesus’ final command to the disciples as recorded in Luke as follows :

    He said to them, ‘This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.’

    “Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, ‘This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.’”

    Jesus' last words to his disciples - His Ascension
    After Jesus said His last words to His disciples, He ascended into heaven. “When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem As with great joy. And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God” (Luke 24:50-53).

    What aspect of this command do you feel the Disciples failed to comply with?

    a)The status of the disciples is undisputed. They are the best and most concerned of their dedication to Jesus. Had Jesus actually said these words , it would have been compulsory for them to comply.
    Which they did, the Gospel was wide spread in that part of the world centuries before Mohammed and the advent of Islam.

    b)The disciples did not comply with these alleged commands , but instead they maintained following their Jewish customs and were preaching only to their fellow Jewish kin , affirming Jesus as the Messiah which is what is necessary to believe in.
    Starting at Jerusalem.. If they did as you say, stay put and followed their Jewish customs only preaching to their immediate neighbours. How pray tell did the Gospel spread so effectively?

    Considering this historical reality along with relying on the default position during the life of Jesus ( Sent only to the Jews ) , the safer opinion for critical engagement with the Bible , would be to say that Jesus actually never said these words , or at most we can say that they were not accurately relayed to us / Jesus intention was not what the text may appear to say - and this can be known with certainty due to the actions of the ones who allegedly heard these words.

    If the above is true , then a logical question to ask is "Why is it in the Bible then?"

    - It is not in every Gospel
    - The Bible we have is founded on , and influenced by elements of Pauline Doctrine.
    - Not all sects interpret the passages as modern Christians do ( Ebionites , considering the statement is found in Matthew)

    Paul was obviously an influential figure in early Christianity. He was claiming to receive revelation from Jesus , and was converting the gentile population.

    - If I am not mistaken the early accepted Church fathers were gentiles themselves , which means they were obviously in favour of him and his theology , along with their opposition to what opposes it ( They considered the Ebionites as heretics )

    1) Paul himself is a heretic due to his opposition to Jesus and the Disciples.
    2) Accepting Jesus does not necessitate accepting Paul and his innovations.

    Obviously as a Muslim I intend to encourage and promote Islam and calling all peoples to this religion. But I believe the most coherent understanding of Christianity as it would relate to a gentile understanding , would either be ..

    a) Complete conversion to Judaism , as it understood by sects clinging on to early Jewish Christianity ( Nazerrines / Ebionites ) , along with believing that Jesus was the chosen Messiah.

    Believing in Jewish Christianity would mean a rejection of the Trinity , a rejection the theology of Paul , and complying to all the commandments as Jesus advised his followers.

    b) or having faith similar to the gentile woman who Jesus is reported to have called a 'dog'. Affirming Jesus as a Prophet and the Messiah , and rejecting idolatry. This is due to the fact that neither Jesus nor his disciples went out preaching , and the Jewish expectation of non Jews is not equal with that of a Jew.

    ( Ultimately I believe both are false , the Prophet Muhammad (saws) has established the truth regarding all this deviancy - and at this point opposing him is opposing both Jesus and God. )

    That's all for now.
    Where did Paul oppose the teachings of Jesus and was in disagreement with the disciples? I do feel you put rather a lot of emphasis on Paul, even without the Epistles of Paul, just going on the four synoptic Gospels then we’d still have the same message. You are of course free to believe the message of Jesus found in the Gospels is false, however, you can never prove it because in the absence of evidence to offer an alternative Gospel - it’s what we have. All you have in your prophet you take on faith. What you take from Bible scripture is what you allow yourself to see. As you see I only touched on a few of your points, your mind is set and I find I am not inclined to change it. I doubt you will ever get me to see the truth in Islam by nit picking at the Bible scripture. For a Christian it’s more about the person of Christ Jesus and how we relate to God as He taught us. You don’t know Jesus. HE knows you though.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Who do you class as true orthodox Jewish Christians? Would for example the disciples fit this criteria? As Paul was primarily concerned with delivering the Gospel to the Gentiles who was he supposed to have influenced?
    Paul was ‘primarily concerned’ with delivering the Gospel to the Gentiles because he was instructed to do so by the impostor ‘Jesus’ he met on that wilderness road to Damascus. The true Jesus would never send anyone to preach to the Gentiles as he himself was never sent by God to the Gentiles but only to the Jews.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Not strange, as you are aware there is some controversy surrounding this verse, (which is why I’m guessing you brought it up) the long ending not found in older manuscripts etc. However, there is a majority opinion among scholars that it has every right to be included in its long form. For myself, I don’t believe it in itself changes any doctrine that isn’t found elsewhere in the Bible.
    Of course it does, the concept of the trinity doctrine is the main backbone of Christianity today. However, the fabrication of Mathew 28:19 only proved the trinity doctrine, 1) was a man-made doctrine, 2) the doctrine was never preached by any prophet of God and glaringly obvious, 3) the scribes/writers of the day will go to any length to ‘tailor-fit’ the man-made trinity doctrine concept into the Scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Well of course, I thought that was clear. I thought it also clear it is not to be taken as evidences of the teachings of the man (Jesus) but testimony of the man (Jesus) and what was prophesied about him. Simeon echoed the prophet Isaiah. A messianic prophesy that the suffering servant and Messiah (Jesus) will restore the tribes of Israel (mission first fold) and a God given light to the Gentiles (mission second fold) Gods given salvation to the ends of the earth. I accept that Muslims will interpret this in a different way, to be expected. That doesn’t have any impact on the centuries of scholars accepted interpretation that the suffering servant discourse in Isaiah is about none other but Jesus. So that’s Israel, the Gentiles and to the end of the earth covered. Seems to imply that Jesus was sent for ALL mankind for ALL time. So no need for any other prophet after Jesus.

    Isaiah 49 5-6
    5 “And now the Lord says,
    Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
    To bring Jacob back to Him,
    So that Israel is gathered to Him
    (For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the Lord,
    And My God shall be My strength),
    6 Indeed He says,
    ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
    To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
    And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
    I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
    That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth
    .’
    In his own words, Jesus was never sent to the Gentiles, so, the implication of Jesus was sent “for ALL mankind for ALL time” is just a distortion of what Jesus said of whom he was sent to.

    Who is ‘You’ in the ‘I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ?? No specific name mentioned here, so why do you assume it was Jesus and not anyone else ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Jesus’ final command to the disciples as recorded in Luke as follows :
    He said to them, ‘This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.’

    “Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, ‘This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.’”

    Jesus' last words to his disciples - His Ascension
    After Jesus said His last words to His disciples, He ascended into heaven. “When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem As with great joy. And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God” (Luke 24:50-53).
    What aspect of this command do you feel the Disciples failed to comply with?
    Can you clarify on your understanding of “The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” ?? Try to support your explanation with logic and rationale from the scripture verses so that no one will construe that you are just making up along the way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Which they did, the Gospel was wide spread in that part of the world centuries before Mohammed and the advent of Islam.
    Starting at Jerusalem.. If they did as you say, stay put and followed their Jewish customs only preaching to their immediate neighbours. How pray tell did the Gospel spread so effectively?
    Christianity spread so ‘effectively’ because of the efficiency of the Roman Empire. Of course, the fact that Paul went beyond Jesus, who preached only to the Jews, also played a major role in advancing Christianity. Paul, under the guidance of the impostor 'Jesus', took his gospel to the Gentiles, and that help to spread his Christianity too. Not to mention, that for 30 years, Paul traveled across the Roman Empire preaching from city to city his gospel targeting mainly the tens of thousands of the poor and desperate people who were the perfect audience to his preaching of 'eternal life just by faith without the ‘hassle’ of the Law'. Other factor that help the spread of Christianity is the relax of the Law such as the dietary law and circumcision which appeal to the masses and help Christianity to grow even bigger.

    As Jesus said that many will enter thru the gate that is wide (meaning appealing to the masses) but the wide gate will lead to destruction and few will enter thru the gate that is narrow (meaning not appealing as there are rules and regulations to keep and follow), but the narrow gate will lead to eternal life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Where did Paul oppose the teachings of Jesus and was in disagreement with the disciples? I do feel you put rather a lot of emphasis on Paul, even without the Epistles of Paul, just going on the four synoptic Gospels then we’d still have the same message. You are of course free to believe the message of Jesus found in the Gospels is false, however, you can never prove it because in the absence of evidence to offer an alternative Gospel - it’s what we have.
    If you believe Paul did not oppose the teachings of Jesus, you are delusional, to say the least.

    Here are just some of them :

    - Jesus says not to eat meat sacrificed to idols, but Paul says It is Ok
    - Jesus says the Law continues, but Paul says ‘No’
    - Jesus says salvation initiates and continues by repentance from sin and obedience besides faith; Paul
    says this is heresy
    - Jesus tells Apostles to teach his commands given prior to his ascension while in the flesh, but Paul says not
    to do so
    - Paul says elders are entitled to pay for 'Preaching & Teaching,' but Jesus says ‘No’.
    - Jesus teaches there are only 12 Apostles into Eternity, but Paul adds himself to the list as a thirteenth
    - Jesus says some are righteous, But Paul says it is impossible for anyone to be righteous. (Is this why you
    said it’s impossible to keep ALL the Law All the time ?)

    Let me know if you need me to clarify further on any of the above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    All you have in your prophet you take on faith.
    Muslims don’t take Prophet Muhammad just on faith but also on what he said and preached, which were in accordance with the Holy Quran. Unlike the Christians who primarily follow Paul’s Christianity, Muslims would NOT have just believe anyone who came along and said he met or heard a voice saying “I am Prophet Muhammad” or “I am Jesus” on a road in the wilderness and then preach something totally against the teaching of Prophet Muhammad or the Messiah, Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    What you take from Bible scripture is what you allow yourself to see. As you see I only touched on a few of your points, your mind is set and I find I am not inclined to change it. I doubt you will ever get me to see the truth in Islam by nit picking at the Bible scripture. For we relate to God as He taught us. You don’t know Jesus. HE knows you though.
    Well, I can tell you this for certain - YOU don’t know Jesus and neither he knows you BUT God knows you though. I guess that’s why on THAT day, Jesus the prophet will tell YOU - “I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!”.
    Last edited by JerryMyers; 12-10-17 at 11:26 AM.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Would you mind explaining that?



    Who do you class as true orthodox Jewish Christians? Would for example the disciples fit this criteria? As Paul was primarily concerned with delivering the Gospel to the Gentiles who was he supposed to have influenced?
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Not strange, as you are aware there is some controversy surrounding this verse, (which is why I’m guessing you brought it up) the long ending not found in older manuscripts etc. However, there is a majority opinion among scholars that it has every right to be included in its long form. For myself, I don’t believe it in itself changes any doctrine that isn’t found elsewhere in the Bible.



    Well of course, I thought that was clear. I thought it also clear it is not to be taken as evidences of the teachings of the man (Jesus) but testimony of the man (Jesus) and what was prophesied about him. Simeon echoed the prophet Isaiah. A messianic prophesy that the suffering servant and Messiah (Jesus) will restore the tribes of Israel (mission first fold) and a God given light to the Gentiles (mission second fold) Gods given salvation to the ends of the earth. I accept that Muslims will interpret this in a different way, to be expected. That doesn’t have any impact on the centuries of scholars accepted interpretation that the suffering servant discourse in Isaiah is about none other but Jesus. So that’s Israel, the Gentiles and to the end of the earth covered. Seems to imply that Jesus was sent for ALL mankind for ALL time. So no need for any other prophet after Jesus.

    Isaiah 49 5-6

    5 “And now the Lord says,
    Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
    To bring Jacob back to Him,
    So that Israel is gathered to Him
    (For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the Lord,
    And My God shall be My strength),
    6 Indeed He says,
    ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
    To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
    And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
    I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
    That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’




    Jesus’ final command to the disciples as recorded in Luke as follows :

    He said to them, ‘This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.’

    “Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. He told them, ‘This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.’”

    Jesus' last words to his disciples - His Ascension
    After Jesus said His last words to His disciples, He ascended into heaven. “When he had led them out to the vicinity of Bethany, he lifted up his hands and blessed them. While he was blessing them, he left them and was taken up into heaven. Then they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem As with great joy. And they stayed continually at the temple, praising God” (Luke 24:50-53).

    What aspect of this command do you feel the Disciples failed to comply with?



    Which they did, the Gospel was wide spread in that part of the world centuries before Mohammed and the advent of Islam.



    Starting at Jerusalem.. If they did as you say, stay put and followed their Jewish customs only preaching to their immediate neighbours. How pray tell did the Gospel spread so effectively?



    Where did Paul oppose the teachings of Jesus and was in disagreement with the disciples? I do feel you put rather a lot of emphasis on Paul, even without the Epistles of Paul, just going on the four synoptic Gospels then we’d still have the same message. You are of course free to believe the message of Jesus found in the Gospels is false, however, you can never prove it because in the absence of evidence to offer an alternative Gospel - it’s what we have. All you have in your prophet you take on faith. What you take from Bible scripture is what you allow yourself to see. As you see I only touched on a few of your points, your mind is set and I find I am not inclined to change it. I doubt you will ever get me to see the truth in Islam by nit picking at the Bible scripture. For a Christian it’s more about the person of Christ Jesus and how we relate to God as He taught us. You don’t know Jesus. HE knows you though.
    Hey man , sorry for the late reply.

    Personally as Muslims we believe the Prophet Muhammad is the final Prophet(saws). Theologically speaking , we can never say that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of mankind , nor can we grant him a Godly status. We also do not believe that Jesus became a universal Messenger ( Though that may have been what was initially planned - considering the fulfilment of the Messiah )

    Prior to the events which led to the crucifixion , the Jesus of your Bible conformed to how we perceive him from an Islamic standpoint.

    1) Was concerned with only the Jews
    2) Called people to obey the scriptures
    3) Monotheism in worship

    His own people rejected him and charged him as a rebelious blasphemer. It is during this stage where the incoherence of "his ministry" began. Within the Bible we find.

    1) Salvation is acquired through belief in the crucifixion and ressurection, which contradicts Jesus's earlier teachings.

    2) The gates of the religion are now open for everyone .. Just believe in the Crucified Messiah.

    3) Jesus is worshipped as one with god.

    4) Jesus prophecised that he would return within the lifetime of the disciples.

    And ultimately the Christians believe that the "religion is complete". This was what God intended , and to reject the death , crucifixion and ressurection is to deny Christ.

    I don't believe any of those points are true. I don't believe Jesus exalted himself as God incarnate , nor did false prophecies , or that you must believe he DIED and was raised. There was no ressurection experience because he didn't die in the first place.

    Obviously as a Muslim this is my default. But trying to be as objective as possible , I must admit , it is kind of strange how the Christians portray this scenario. Why would the Messiah fail in his mission ( Political supremecy ) , and be rejected by his people? Why would we go to hell for rejecting a claimant to the Messiah who got crucified and didn't return like he said he would?

    I think the Islamic narrative actually makes a whole lot of sense. The Jews arrogantly rejected him and resorted to their devious "falsification tests" which backfired on them. God raised Jesus , and cursed his people who rejected Gods promise and as a result , are eternally upon the assumption that .. "Jesus died , therefore hes not the Messiah."

    But I mean , if the Ministry of Jesus was ruined and flipped upside down - in the manner that it did - then why wouldn't God send another Prophet to shed light on this unexpected disaster. Personally I am convinced intellectually , by this narrative. It is more cohesive and logical. More believable , in my opinion.

    Within your post you kept mentioning the Gospels were distributed throughout the world , and that this is the fulfillment of the dicsiples.

    1) The 4 Gospels are anonymous , no one knows who wrote them - and the scholars admit that they copied from each other - along with a Q source.

    2) None of the gospel writers are believed to the Disciples. I would be shocked if that is even a belief by the fundamentalist.

    3) They do not even claim to be eye witnesses.

    4) 2 Peter is universally considered a forgery via pseudonymity - and there are good reasons to believe 1 Peter was not written by Peter.

    Now you may claim that these were stories shared by the disciples which spread around , and people eventually wrote it down. It's much harder to affirm or negate such a thing. I mean , im sure they told others about their times with Jesus - as any follower would do. But you see , early Christianity was chaotic - theologically speaking ..

    -Which Gospels are authoritative ?( Many Gospels were considered apocryphe )

    -How do we make sense of the crucified messiah? He said he was going to come back , but didn't ..

    -Is Jesus just a Prophet/Messiah , or is he an elevated agent of God who is worshipped alongside the father? Is He Yahweh? Is the Holy Ghost also God?

    -Did Jesus die for our sins as Paul suggest or do we maintain the teachings of Jesus? ( Torah Abidance )

    -Is Paul a truthful claimant as the 13th disciple - receiving revelation which needs to be followed , or is he a heretic leading the people(Gentiles) astray?


    These are not questions clearly answered , nor are they easy digest. Perhaps within our paradigm in the 21 Century .. The Bible which we have is almost universally accepted , the various church counsils have taken place .. Theres nothing to it , really ! It is what is! ( Not mocking , but that is the typical answer )

    The true Jewish Orthodox followers of Jesus and the disciples are the Nazerines and Ebionites. They trace their tradition back to James and Peter. They reject your Bible as an authoritative text , due to the presence of Paul - whom they consider an apostate/False Prophet. They also do not consider Jesus divine in a godly sense. He is a Prophet and Messenger , who called the people to monotheism , torah abidance , and spirituality.

    But that sect is really no where to be seen , unlike the mainstream denominations. As for myself , this is only further proof that Christianity was not intended to be what it is today. Jesus was ultimately rejected , and God took his succession away from the Jews and replaced it with their Semite cousins. The 'Path of Jesus' is not relevant in the world. Rather , we are stuck ( You guys are stuck ) with the interpretation and alleged revelations of Paul. A man who went against all the initial teachings of Jesus , was opposed by the disciples within his own works - and rejected as an apostate by those who claim to follow the Christianity of the Disciples.

    ( Sorry I am using a phone , so my thoughts may be scattered.)

    Just to be clear ..

    I believe the statements allegedly ascribed to Jesus regarding global propegation are historically not accurate or altered to fit a narrative.

    1) Historically inaccurate meaning it is in the Bible but Jesus never said those words.

    2) He may have commanded them to spread the truth regarding the Messiah throughout the world , but not in the manner which you have accepted from Paul. Paul says you must believe that Jesus died on the Cross , and also that he was ressurected and raised. This is pauline christianity in a nutshell. But perhaps Jesus commanded the disciples to speak the truth about the Christ , to have faith in his second coming , and to await Gods decision because the Religion of God ( Which started with Adam ) was not going to end in this manner.

    - I understand you have certain prophecies which satisfies your position. Personally I am not so impressed with biblical prophecies and I don't say that disrespectfully. Prophecies are open to interpretation , and just seems like a whole lot of bias - pick and choosing. There are prophecies for Muhammad(saws) which are not debunked convincingly by Christians. Just a mere dismissal , without providing any other canditate. Since that is the case , I don't view it as a valid standard which reaches decisive conclusions. Also I theologically and practically believe that the Old Testament is not preserved.

    Feel free to respond.

    Peace

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    @Pip1

    Hey , I have re-read my post and I noticed that I did not answer your question. I actually repeated what you asked me to explain.

    Had Jesus commanded his followers to "Baptize all nations" , or to call the nations to the beliefs you currently uphold - then I believe history would play out differently.

    1) The 4 Gospels are autobiographies within certain perspectives designed for certain audiances. They are not the written works of the Disciples.

    2) I would expect them to physically travel the world , or write letters to leaders , warning them of the Messiah's alleged death , ressurection and second coming which is expected within upcoming years.

    They were heedless to this call , rather it was Paul who was eager to call the gentils to this creed. According to the Bible itself the disciples remained in Jeruselam , complying with their pre-crucifiction customs.

    Either they disobeyed , or the religion of Jesus was as he said it was .. Only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    .

    2) None of the gospel writers are believed to the Disciples. I would be shocked if that is even a belief by the fundamentalist.
    I take this statement back. Indeed many of the "fundamentalist" believe it to be the case in one form or another.

    Though others claim otherwise for various reasons.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    Hey man , sorry for the late reply.

    Personally as Muslims we believe the Prophet Muhammad is the final Prophet(saws). Theologically speaking , we can never say that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of mankind , nor can we grant him a Godly status. We also do not believe that Jesus became a universal Messenger ( Though that may have been what was initially planned - considering the fulfilment of the Messiah )

    Prior to the events which led to the crucifixion , the Jesus of your Bible conformed to how we perceive him from an Islamic standpoint.

    1) Was concerned with only the Jews
    2) Called people to obey the scriptures
    3) Monotheism in worship

    His own people rejected him and charged him as a rebelious blasphemer. It is during this stage where the incoherence of "his ministry" began. Within the Bible we find.

    1) Salvation is acquired through belief in the crucifixion and ressurection, which contradicts Jesus's earlier teachings.

    2) The gates of the religion are now open for everyone .. Just believe in the Crucified Messiah.

    3) Jesus is worshipped as one with god.

    4) Jesus prophecised that he would return within the lifetime of the disciples.

    And ultimately the Christians believe that the "religion is complete". This was what God intended , and to reject the death , crucifixion and ressurection is to deny Christ.

    I don't believe any of those points are true. I don't believe Jesus exalted himself as God incarnate , nor did false prophecies , or that you must believe he DIED and was raised. There was no ressurection experience because he didn't die in the first place.

    Obviously as a Muslim this is my default. But trying to be as objective as possible , I must admit , it is kind of strange how the Christians portray this scenario. Why would the Messiah fail in his mission ( Political supremecy ) , and be rejected by his people? Why would we go to hell for rejecting a claimant to the Messiah who got crucified and didn't return like he said he would?

    I think the Islamic narrative actually makes a whole lot of sense. The Jews arrogantly rejected him and resorted to their devious "falsification tests" which backfired on them. God raised Jesus , and cursed his people who rejected Gods promise and as a result , are eternally upon the assumption that .. "Jesus died , therefore hes not the Messiah."

    But I mean , if the Ministry of Jesus was ruined and flipped upside down - in the manner that it did - then why wouldn't God send another Prophet to shed light on this unexpected disaster. Personally I am convinced intellectually , by this narrative. It is more cohesive and logical. More believable , in my opinion.

    Within your post you kept mentioning the Gospels were distributed throughout the world , and that this is the fulfillment of the dicsiples.

    1) The 4 Gospels are anonymous , no one knows who wrote them - and the scholars admit that they copied from each other - along with a Q source.

    2) None of the gospel writers are believed to the Disciples. I would be shocked if that is even a belief by the fundamentalist.

    3) They do not even claim to be eye witnesses.

    4) 2 Peter is universally considered a forgery via pseudonymity - and there are good reasons to believe 1 Peter was not written by Peter.

    Now you may claim that these were stories shared by the disciples which spread around , and people eventually wrote it down. It's much harder to affirm or negate such a thing. I mean , im sure they told others about their times with Jesus - as any follower would do. But you see , early Christianity was chaotic - theologically speaking ..

    -Which Gospels are authoritative ?( Many Gospels were considered apocryphe )

    -How do we make sense of the crucified messiah? He said he was going to come back , but didn't ..

    -Is Jesus just a Prophet/Messiah , or is he an elevated agent of God who is worshipped alongside the father? Is He Yahweh? Is the Holy Ghost also God?

    -Did Jesus die for our sins as Paul suggest or do we maintain the teachings of Jesus? ( Torah Abidance )

    -Is Paul a truthful claimant as the 13th disciple - receiving revelation which needs to be followed , or is he a heretic leading the people(Gentiles) astray?


    These are not questions clearly answered , nor are they easy digest. Perhaps within our paradigm in the 21 Century .. The Bible which we have is almost universally accepted , the various church counsils have taken place .. Theres nothing to it , really ! It is what is! ( Not mocking , but that is the typical answer )

    The true Jewish Orthodox followers of Jesus and the disciples are the Nazerines and Ebionites. They trace their tradition back to James and Peter. They reject your Bible as an authoritative text , due to the presence of Paul - whom they consider an apostate/False Prophet. They also do not consider Jesus divine in a godly sense. He is a Prophet and Messenger , who called the people to monotheism , torah abidance , and spirituality.

    But that sect is really no where to be seen , unlike the mainstream denominations. As for myself , this is only further proof that Christianity was not intended to be what it is today. Jesus was ultimately rejected , and God took his succession away from the Jews and replaced it with their Semite cousins. The 'Path of Jesus' is not relevant in the world. Rather , we are stuck ( You guys are stuck ) with the interpretation and alleged revelations of Paul. A man who went against all the initial teachings of Jesus , was opposed by the disciples within his own works - and rejected as an apostate by those who claim to follow the Christianity of the Disciples.

    ( Sorry I am using a phone , so my thoughts may be scattered.)

    Just to be clear ..

    I believe the statements allegedly ascribed to Jesus regarding global propegation are historically not accurate or altered to fit a narrative.

    1) Historically inaccurate meaning it is in the Bible but Jesus never said those words.

    2) He may have commanded them to spread the truth regarding the Messiah throughout the world , but not in the manner which you have accepted from Paul. Paul says you must believe that Jesus died on the Cross , and also that he was ressurected and raised. This is pauline christianity in a nutshell. But perhaps Jesus commanded the disciples to speak the truth about the Christ , to have faith in his second coming , and to await Gods decision because the Religion of God ( Which started with Adam ) was not going to end in this manner.

    - I understand you have certain prophecies which satisfies your position. Personally I am not so impressed with biblical prophecies and I don't say that disrespectfully. Prophecies are open to interpretation , and just seems like a whole lot of bias - pick and choosing. There are prophecies for Muhammad(saws) which are not debunked convincingly by Christians. Just a mere dismissal , without providing any other canditate. Since that is the case , I don't view it as a valid standard which reaches decisive conclusions. Also I theologically and practically believe that the Old Testament is not preserved.

    Feel free to respond.

    Peace
    I find I check into this site less and less now. Strangely I feel the need to respond to your (and others) opinions and deliberations even less. It's quite clear that as Muslims you can never agree to anything in the previous scripture, except what may bear some similarity to your Qur'an. (Strange that) if Christ Jesus appeared before you I doubt you would see. Despite claims of undeniable proof of the truth of Islam when it comes down to it, you have nothing. There will come a day when your eyes will be opened to the truth, but it's not this day, in fact I would say with surety they won't be opened in this life. But opened they will be. Because Gods truth will not be denied. That truth is Christ Jesus.

    What you say.. And yes it does come across as disrespectful, but hey I expect no less. You're not impressed with biblical prophecies, well hold the front page, why would you be? They hold nothing for you. You can't afford to give biblical prophecy the time of day seeing as they show the truth of biblical Jesus and bear no mention of Islam or your prophet,. I know you so desperately want to see this biblical validation of your prophet but jump through hoops as you may you will not find what is not there. It always puzzled me greatly why you would even make such claims of your prophet prophesied in scripture you believe to be corrupt anyway! Or maybe it's just those bits that are not corrupt.. I mean have you any idea how ridiculous a notion that is! If I had see your prophet mentioned in the Bible it would be Matthew 7: 15-20 or 1 John 4: 1-6. No where else.

    Old Testament prophecies in the main deal with Jesus, prophets are types and shadows of Jesus looking forward to Him. The Gospels look back and record the Life and teachings of Jesus. It's all about Jesus because He is ALL. You can go against God all you like in this but it's Gods will be done. As you say God knows best. God never gave us religion, religion was never a means to God.

    Does this seem harsh? Possibly, but hey this cookie is crumbling this way today.

    It's been an interesting sojourn but all good things come to and end. Que sera sera.

    God bless.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    I find I check into this site less and less now. Strangely I feel the need to respond to your (and others) opinions and deliberations even less. It's quite clear that as Muslims you can never agree to anything in the previous scripture, except what may bear some similarity to your Qur'an. (Strange that) if Christ Jesus appeared before you I doubt you would see. Despite claims of undeniable proof of the truth of Islam when it comes down to it, you have nothing. There will come a day when your eyes will be opened to the truth, but it's not this day, in fact I would say with surety they won't be opened in this life. But opened they will be. Because Gods truth will not be denied. That truth is Christ Jesus.
    Sure, we all can understand that - when you have nothing else to offer and all your ‘strongest points’ are easily debunked, you will find the need to respond to the others’ opinions and deliberations less and less.

    It's quite clear that as Christians you can never agree to anything to what Jesus the prophet had said in the previous scripture, except what may bear some similarity to Paul’s teaching. (Strange that) if Christ Jesus appeared before you and said Christianity today is false, I doubt you would see. Despite of undeniable proof of the truth of Islam, you still see the lies of man-made doctrines like trinity, original sin as the ‘truth’. There will come a day when your eyes will be opened to the truth, but it's not this day, well, I cannot say with surety they won't be opened in this life. But opened they will be. Because God’s truth will not be denied. That truth will come from Christ Jesus himself when on THAT day, he will tell you “I DO NOT KNOW you ! Go away you evildoers !”. By then, it would be too late to repent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    What you say.. And yes it does come across as disrespectful, but hey I expect no less. You're not impressed with biblical prophecies, well hold the front page, why would you be? They hold nothing for you. You can't afford to give biblical prophecy the time of day seeing as they show the truth of biblical Jesus and bear no mention of Islam or your prophet,. I know you so desperately want to see this biblical validation of your prophet but jump through hoops as you may you will not find what is not there. It always puzzled me greatly why you would even make such claims of your prophet prophesied in scripture you believe to be corrupt anyway! Or maybe it's just those bits that are not corrupt.. I mean have you any idea how ridiculous a notion that is! If I had see your prophet mentioned in the Bible it would be Matthew 7: 15-20 or 1 John 4: 1-6. No where else.
    Have you any idea how ridiculous a notion that is for you to say that Matthew 7:15-20 could be a reference to Prophet Muhammad ? If that was a reference to anyone, it would have been a reference to Paul as it was him who claimed to have come in the name of Jesus and it was him who said he encountered someone who claimed ‘I am Jesus/the Christ’ – isn’t what Paul claims are exactly what Jesus the prophet warned you about in Matthew 24:23-26 ?? Prophet Muhammad NEVER claimed he came in the name of Jesus Christ nor did he claim he encountered anyone who said “I am Jesus/the Christ’. You should take heed of 1 John 4:1-6 and test ALL spirits and that include Paul and the scribes/writers of the scripture.

    But then, what you say.. And yes it does come across as disrespectful, but hey I expect no less. You're not impressed with what Jesus the prophet truly said or meant, well hold the front page, why would you be? They hold nothing for you. You can't afford to give Jesus’ true words and intentions the time of day seeing as they show the truth of Jesus the prophet and bear no mention of his divinity, of Paul or the likes of trinity or the original sin. I know you so desperately want to see this validation of these man-made beliefs/doctrines in the scripture but jump through hoops as you may, you will not find what is not there. It always puzzled me greatly why you would even be impressed by what Paul said that your faith would be in vain IF you do not believe that Jesus died and rose again ?! I mean, really, how can Christianity even be a Faith, let alone, a true Faith, if it’s mere existence just hangs on the belief that a prophet must die and rise again ??!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Old Testament prophecies in the main deal with Jesus, prophets are types and shadows of Jesus looking forward to Him. The Gospels look back and record the Life and teachings of Jesus. It's all about Jesus because He is ALL. You can go against God all you like in this but it's Gods will be done. As you say God knows best. God never gave us religion, religion was never a means to God.
    Does this seem harsh? Possibly, but hey this cookie is crumbling this way today.
    Old Testament is primarily about God and His Righteousness and not ALL OT prophecies was about Jesus. If any, they were about the coming of Jesus as a servant of God, NOT as God or God-equal. You can go against God all you like in this but it's God’s Will, be done. God knows best and God gave us the religion of Islam as a true guide to Him.

    Does this seem harsh? Possibly, but hey the truth need to be told and the falsehood of your belief is crumbling this way today.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    It's been an interesting sojourn but all good things come to and end. Que sera sera.
    God bless.
    Bye-bye, Pip. It have been good interacting with you and thank you for strengthening my belief and faith in Islam.

    May God bless you and open your heart to the truth of Islam one day. Do take care.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Sure, we all can understand that - when you have nothing else to offer and all your ‘strongest points’ are easily debunked, you will find the need to respond to the others’ opinions and deliberations less and less.

    It's quite clear that as Christians you can never agree to anything to what Jesus the prophet had said in the previous scripture, except what may bear some similarity to Paul’s teaching. (Strange that) if Christ Jesus appeared before you and said Christianity today is false, I doubt you would see. Despite of undeniable proof of the truth of Islam, you still see the lies of man-made doctrines like trinity, original sin as the ‘truth’. There will come a day when your eyes will be opened to the truth, but it's not this day, well, I cannot say with surety they won't be opened in this life. But opened they will be. Because God’s truth will not be denied. That truth will come from Christ Jesus himself when on THAT day, he will tell you “I DO NOT KNOW you ! Go away you evildoers !”. By then, it would be too late to repent.



    Have you any idea how ridiculous a notion that is for you to say that Matthew 7:15-20 could be a reference to Prophet Muhammad ? If that was a reference to anyone, it would have been a reference to Paul as it was him who claimed to have come in the name of Jesus and it was him who said he encountered someone who claimed ‘I am Jesus/the Christ’ – isn’t what Paul claims are exactly what Jesus the prophet warned you about in Matthew 24:23-26 ?? Prophet Muhammad NEVER claimed he came in the name of Jesus Christ nor did he claim he encountered anyone who said “I am Jesus/the Christ’. You should take heed of 1 John 4:1-6 and test ALL spirits and that include Paul and the scribes/writers of the scripture.

    But then, what you say.. And yes it does come across as disrespectful, but hey I expect no less. You're not impressed with what Jesus the prophet truly said or meant, well hold the front page, why would you be? They hold nothing for you. You can't afford to give Jesus’ true words and intentions the time of day seeing as they show the truth of Jesus the prophet and bear no mention of his divinity, of Paul or the likes of trinity or the original sin. I know you so desperately want to see this validation of these man-made beliefs/doctrines in the scripture but jump through hoops as you may, you will not find what is not there. It always puzzled me greatly why you would even be impressed by what Paul said that your faith would be in vain IF you do not believe that Jesus died and rose again ?! I mean, really, how can Christianity even be a Faith, let alone, a true Faith, if it’s mere existence just hangs on the belief that a prophet must die and rise again ??!!



    Old Testament is primarily about God and His Righteousness and not ALL OT prophecies was about Jesus. If any, they were about the coming of Jesus as a servant of God, NOT as God or God-equal. You can go against God all you like in this but it's God’s Will, be done. God knows best and God gave us the religion of Islam as a true guide to Him.

    Does this seem harsh? Possibly, but hey the truth need to be told and the falsehood of your belief is crumbling this way today.



    Bye-bye, Pip. It have been good interacting with you and thank you for strengthening my belief and faith in Islam.

    May God bless you and open your heart to the truth of Islam one day. Do take care.
    How remiss of me not to say farewell Jerry. I know you have a high opinion of your ability and really believe you are exposing the alleged falsehoods of Christianity but really you’re not. To do that your arguments at least have to be in some way convincing to the Christian - me. At least enough to cause me to question. But it’s all just your opinion you have nothing. Tbh one of the main reasons I stopped responding to your posts was your childish parroting I found rather tiresome. Can’t even come up with your own satire lol

    Maybe if you had spent less time trying to disprove Christianity ( an impossible task and one sadly beyond you) and more time explaining why you see Islam as the truth. Another impossible task? Maybe so. It would have born more fruit. But then again it’s hard to prove a truth that is not there. But in this world people have always disagreed over religion. Another reason why God did not send us religion. God is not the author of confusion. I also (parroting your thanks ) thank you sincerely for strengthening my faith in Christ and showing me that He is the way , the truth and the life. Just as He said He was. It doesn’t get any clearer than that.

    I’ve no doubt you’ll see this one day let’s hope it’s not too late for you. By Gods grace He is all there is without Him - You truly have nothing.

    Take care Jerry. All the best

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    How remiss of me not to say farewell Jerry. I know you have a high opinion of your ability and really believe you are exposing the alleged falsehoods of Christianity but really you’re not.
    I am not here to expose the falsehoods of Christianity (I don't have to) or to convince you or any Christian, Pip – I thought I have told you that many times before. I am here to tell the truth and of course, the truth will, inevitably, expose the falsehoods of Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    To do that your arguments at least have to be in some way convincing to the Christian - me. At least enough to cause me to question. But it’s all just your opinion you have nothing.
    No one can convince a Christian like you, Pip, not even Jesus the prophet. Jesus told you to test all spirits and what did you do – NOTHING ! He told you to worship only the one God who sent him and what did you do – you worship him as God instead ! So, if Jesus himself cannot cause a Christian like you to question someone like Paul whom the likes he warned of, who of this earth can ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Tbh one of the main reasons I stopped responding to your posts was your childish parroting I found rather tiresome. Can’t even come up with your own satire lol
    Really ? Guess you do not like a taste of your own medicine, now do you ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Maybe if you had spent less time trying to disprove Christianity (an impossible task and one sadly beyond you) and more time explaining why you see Islam as the truth. Another impossible task? Maybe so. It would have born more fruit. But then again it’s hard to prove a truth that is not there.
    Well, if you don’t like a taste of your own medicine, then you should stop ‘selling’ your ‘medicine’, just like what you are doing here, so..... maybe if you had spent less time trying to disprove the truth in what I am saying (an impossible task and one sadly beyond you) and more time explaining why you see Christianity today and someone like Paul as the truth. Another impossible task? Maybe so. It would have born more fruit. But then again it’s hard to prove a truth that is not there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    But in this world people have always disagreed over religion. Another reason why God did not send us religion. God is not the author of confusion. I also (parroting your thanks ) thank you sincerely for strengthening my faith in Christ and showing me that He is the way , the truth and the life. Just as He said He was. It doesn’t get any clearer than that.
    I’ve no doubt you’ll see this one day let’s hope it’s not too late for you. By Gods grace He is all there is without Him - You truly have nothing.

    Take care Jerry. All the best
    Yes, God is not the author of confusion and that’s why it’s strange that Christians are confused and lost in their faith as of who God is and who His prophet and servant, Jesus, is, especially when Jesus himself had said he can do nothing on his own and that he was sent by God – it doesn’t get any clearer than that - that Jesus is just a prophet and a servant of God – nothing less and nothing more.

    I doubt you’ll see this one day in this lifetime but I have no doubt you will see and know this on THAT day when Jesus will tell you “I DO NOT KNOW you ! Go away you evildoers !”, by then, it’s too late.

    Till then, take care, Pip. All the best to you and your loved ones.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Jesus, the Law, and a "New" Covenant
    Prof. Bart D. Ehrman

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOPd80FN2ew

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Christians believed they are no longer under the Law because they are told that Jesus had fulfilled and accomplished all the Laws for them when he ‘died’ at the cross and therefore, Christians today are freed from those Laws. In a way, as Jesus' disciples believe Jesus ‘died’ on the cross, it’s understandable why they would also say Jesus fulfilled all the Laws upon his ‘death’, as the only way you can have fulfilled and no longer be under all the laws is your own death for how can a man still observe or adhere to any law upon his death?? However, that only hold true to a dead man but how can the livings too be said to be no longer under the Law upon the death of another ? That’s like believing you are no longer under all the laws (civil laws, traffic laws, criminal laws, etc) because your God-fearing, law-abiding father had fulfilled all those laws on your behalf upon his death. Try to tell that to the police officer who stop you for speeding or for jumping the red light !!

    When Jesus said “For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished”, it shows that he too, understood that only death can free you from the Law.

    The phrase “until heaven and earth pass away” would imply the end of time or end of the world when everything as we know it will cease to exist and every living being would have died and it’s also a time when all can be said to have been accomplished (for each own good or bad) since no one will still be alive by then to accomplish anything. In other words, until death or such a time (when heaven and earth had passed away), everyone is subjected to the Law. Thus, whichever comes first (your death on earth or the end of time), those who have been observing and adhering to the Law in their respective lifetime on earth, would also be said to have accomplished in fulfilling all the Laws upon their death or “until heaven and earth pass away” when everything will cease to exist.

    So, the Christians whose main core beliefs are based on man-made teachings under the guise of divine teachings, are really delusional if they believe Jesus had fulfilled the Law for them and they are no longer under the Law.
    Akhi we had Crazy Christians several times try tell us as though heaven and earth had passed away,

    Christians are actually following that Decietful snake Paul, they are hardly following any Teachings of Christ as stated in their own Bible.

    Pip1 is one such example,

    Most Christians are clueless about the Bible too, they simply regurgitate a couple of verses they learnt at church.
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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    Akhi we had Crazy Christians several times try tell us as though heaven and earth had passed away,

    Christians are actually following that Decietful snake Paul, they are hardly following any Teachings of Christ as stated in their own Bible.

    Pip1 is one such example,

    Most Christians are clueless about the Bible too, they simply regurgitate a couple of verses they learnt at church.
    That’s true, Akhi. They came, they saw, they hope to conquer us with their ‘understanding’ of their own Bible (which, by the way, came from their Sunday church), they failed and they left. The only thing they did succeed is strengthening our faith in Islam and for that, we thank them.

    I hope we have more Christians in this forum as, more often than not, they gave us a good insight of how Christians are taught to think and interpret Biblical verses to the tune of Paul’s teaching and the Nicene Creed.

    Salam.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    That’s true, Akhi. They came, they saw, they hope to conquer us with their ‘understanding’ of their own Bible (which, by the way, came from their Sunday church), they failed and they left. The only thing they did succeed is strengthening our faith in Islam and for that, we thank them.

    I hope we have more Christians in this forum as, more often than not, they gave us a good insight of how Christians are taught to think and interpret Biblical verses to the tune of Paul’s teaching and the Nicene Creed.

    Salam.
    Wa alaikumsalaam akhi,

    We had very few Christians who were open to reason, some accepted Islam from this forum alhumdulillah because they had a desire to worship the creator and not the created,

    Majority however did a runner with their tails between their legs,

    What the Christians preach would probably not account to more than a single side of A4, the usual convenient verses which they rattle of with zero understanding of context, let alone what God himself is supposed to have said in the Bible.

    I've actually dealt with one crazy born again cultist, who's been making predictions about the rapture to occur for years now, one after the other,

    It seems his "holy ghost" has been telling him porkies,

    Now he's made another prediction, it's gonna happen (rapture) by end of this year...

    Last edited by Saif-Uddin; 24-10-17 at 07:43 PM.
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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Saif-Uddin View Post

    I've actually dealt with one crazy born again cultist, who's been making predictions about the rapture to occur for years now, one after the other,

    It seems his "holy ghost" has been telling him porkies,

    Now he's made another prediction, it's gonna happen (rapture) by end of this year...

    Akhi, that's so funny.. !! Think he will do well as a stand-up comedian !

    Salam.

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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Akhi, that's so funny.. !! Think he will do well as a stand-up comedian !

    Salam.
    Waiyakum salam warahmatullahi wa barakatu akhi,

    Lol even the Kuffar make fun of this loon,

    He believes the Bible claims the earth is a 6000 year old pancake on pillars, covered by a dome, and nobody has been to the moon,

    And there are clouds behind the moon,

    Recently he's told some other colleagues that there was like a planet sized object heading for us,

    These born again cultists ar some of the most mentally deranged individuals I've seen.

    Last edited by Saif-Uddin; 25-10-17 at 07:14 PM.
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    Re: Are the Christians today no longer under the Law ??

    @JerryMyers

    Im not sure if you read any of my posts , but in case you did - earlier in this thread I said the following ..

    Quote Originally Posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

    b) or having faith similar to the gentile woman who Jesus is reported to have called a 'dog'. Affirming Jesus as a Prophet and the Messiah , and rejecting idolatry. This is due to the fact that neither Jesus nor his disciples went out preaching , and the Jewish expectation of non Jews is not equal with that of a Jew.

    ( Ultimately I believe both are false , the Prophet Muhammad (saws) has established the truth regarding all this deviancy - and at this point opposing him is opposing both Jesus and God. )
    This is actually falsehood and I take it back. This would almost conform to a Pauline understanding which has no rules for the gentiles.

    Acts 15:20 : Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from eating food offered to idols, from sexual immorality, from eating the meat of strangled animals, and from consuming blood. 21For these laws of Moses have been preached in Jewish synagogues in every city on every Sabbath for many generations.”

    Those are the alleged words of James the Just as he gives his ruling on the gentile converts. Paul contradicts this ruling even after accepting it , in many of his writings , as he claims " all foods are clean ". Therefore , Paul contradicts the authoritative disciples and the Christians are following his clear innovations.

    You can read Acts 15 here http://biblehub.com/nlt/acts/15.htm

    Salamu alaykom

 

 

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