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    Evidence for preservation of Quran

    I'm giving dawah to an atheist. I was able to show him certain structural and linguistic aspects of the Quran. But not being able to prove that the Quran has been preserved over the 1400 years due to my lack of knowledge kinda detailed that attempt lol (since he can claim that they took their time structuring the book like that, which you and I know is impossible because of how it was transmitted by Rasoolallah (pbuh))

    Anyone know a good source that can prove it?

    Jazakhallah Khair

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    Re: Evidence for preservation of Quran

    Quote Originally Posted by mekovi View Post
    I'm giving dawah to an atheist. I was able to show him certain structural and linguistic aspects of the Quran. But not being able to prove that the Quran has been preserved over the 1400 years due to my lack of knowledge kinda detailed that attempt lol (since he can claim that they took their time structuring the book like that, which you and I know is impossible because of how it was transmitted by Rasoolallah (pbuh))

    Anyone know a good source that can prove it?

    Jazakhallah Khair

    The only thing that can convince you about the 100% preservation of the Quran is your faith. Oral records can never be reliable.

    There are hadith traditions that tell us that even Prophet Muhammad could forget what was revealed to him.

    [Sahih al-Bukhari 5038] Narrated Aisha: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) heard a man reciting the Qur'an at night, and said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such-and-such Suras, which I was caused to forget."

    [Sahih al-Bukhari 5037] Narrated Aisha: The Prophet (ﷺ) heard a man reciting the Qur'an in the mosque and said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such a Surah."


    Companions of the Prophet also used to forget the verses:

    [Sahih al-Bukhari 5039] Narrated `Abdullah: The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Why does anyone of the people say, 'I have forgotten such-and-such Verses (of the Qur'an)?' He, in fact, is caused (by Allah) to forget."

    There are verses that are mentioned in Hadiths but you don't find them in the Quran and there is no record in the Quran or Hadith telling us what happened to them:

    [Sahih Muslim 1691 a] 'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (ﷺ) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.


    PS: there is a thread about the linguistics of the Quran in this section. Can you please post about the linguistic aspects of the Quran there? - Thanks

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    Senior Member karkooshy's Avatar
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    Re: Evidence for preservation of Quran

    Quote Originally Posted by mekovi View Post
    I'm giving dawah to an atheist. I was able to show him certain structural and linguistic aspects of the Quran. But not being able to prove that the Quran has been preserved over the 1400 years due to my lack of knowledge kinda detailed that attempt lol (since he can claim that they took their time structuring the book like that, which you and I know is impossible because of how it was transmitted by Rasoolallah (pbuh))

    Anyone know a good source that can prove it?

    Jazakhallah Khair
    -1- The Quran being mass transmitted from generation to generation with unbroken chains going back to the Prophet ﷺ. This on its own suffices as decisive proof for the complete preservation of the text.

    -2- The Quran being a public document. Millions of people worldwide pray with the Quran, 5 times a day, every day. This way, the entire Muslim community becomes a means by which the text is preserved. One can’t meddle with a text that is so well known and so often repeated on public platforms.

    -3- The fact that you have so many sects that hate each other to death, and yet all those sects share the same Quran. Given the hostility between the various Islamic sects, you would expect them to develop their own cannons of the Quran if the text was prone to corruption.

    -4- Scholars in the Muslim world, throughout history, would quote passages from the Quran in their literature. Yet you don’t find those scholars quoting verses that are unknown to us.

    -5- You also have physical manuscripts for the Quran. Apart from very obvious spelling mistakes (which is expected from a scribe who’s copying a long document by hand), those manuscripts match the Quran we have today. There are various 1st century fragments of the text, however the Topkapi Quran is the earliest virtually-complete codex of the Quran. It dates back to the late 1st century, and it too matches the Quran we have today.

    Amongst other reasons.

    http://www.islamic-awareness.org has some good material on the subject of Quranic preservation.

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    striving to be sincere Abu Kamel's Avatar
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    Re: Evidence for preservation of Quran

    Quote Originally Posted by mekovi View Post
    I'm giving dawah to an atheist. I was able to show him certain structural and linguistic aspects of the Quran. But not being able to prove that the Quran has been preserved over the 1400 years due to my lack of knowledge kinda detailed that attempt lol (since he can claim that they took their time structuring the book like that, which you and I know is impossible because of how it was transmitted by Rasoolallah (pbuh))

    Anyone know a good source that can prove it?

    Jazakhallah Khair


    First, beware of Yuri. He is a kafir attempting to undermine the Risala/Message of the Prophet by alleging to undermine the credibility and capability of the Prophet by using authentic narrations.

    Like Yuri and the atheist with whom you are in discussion/dialogue, these types of kufar are open rebels and enemies of Allah. Their hearts are set on destroying any aspect of Islam to elevate their own importance and justify their rebellion against their Lord.
    Because their hearts are dead and black, no amount of reasonable explanation and conclusive evidences can alter their kufr. Like Firaun when he witnessed the signs of the prophet Musa .

    As for what was said, first by Yuri as he made foolish allegations about the Prophet's memory, and then the atheist's claim about the revelation not reaching beyond the Prophet .

    The false allegation by Yuri that calls into question the Prophet's :sawsw2: memory fails to take into account the extensive record of the reality surrounding the Prophet .

    First, the preIslamic Arab culture understood that mankind is prone to weakness, including forgetfulness. Thus, one of the arabic words for "man" is "insan", from "nasiy" forgetful. And it can be noted that the kafir Arab enemies of Islam who knew the Prophet never claimed he was inordinately forgetful, or made mistakes in his recitation, or didn't remember or know the Holy Quran. And they would be the first to make such allegations as they were the worst opponents to Islam during the lifetime of the Prophet .


    And the context of the record of the Prophet life is that multiple people, would follow him around, looking and listening to anything and everything he said, did, or did not say or do. Most of the people around him were his closest companions, disciples, family, but also those who were not related to him, but who watched, saw, heard, participated in following him such that they often intruded, or threatened to intrude into every aspect of his life. So the fact that there are narrations that he might have said he forgot such and such ayaat, did not mean he failed to report and transmit them to the Muslim Ummah and forgot them entirely. Rather, that he was not thinking of them at the time they were recited and they were recalled to him upon hearing them.

    One could imagine that as a prophet, a judge, a ruler, a husband, a spiritual guide, a father, a brother, when 1000s of people were always approaching or encroaching upon him daily, at a time at the end of the day he was tired and resting and wanted to relax and listen to the Holy Quran recited, the reciter would recite verses he did not recall at that moment, perhaps they were revealed to him years before, such that they brought back fondness, devotion, sincerity, and brought peace to him upon hearing it again. This is the type of scenerio in which the narrations Yuri cited should be placed.

    This scenerio being the plausible reality, the reality of the Holy Quran is that it was revealed to the Prophet from the Arch Angel Jibril who would teach him the verse, or verses until he had memorize them. Then he would transmit them to those nearest to him immediately, not forgetting them, or making mistakes in them.

    The believers were always around him to record, memorize, and repeat and transmit what was revealed to him. First, his wives, usually at night, early morning, and when he was at home. As well, his immediate family: his daughters, his adopted son and grandson Zaid ibn Haritha and Usama bin Zaid , were with him. Also in his home were several youths who Muslim families sent to serve the Prophet They were the "Abdullahs": Abdullah bin Abbas (cousin of the Prophet ), Abdullah bin Umar, Abdullah bin Masud, Abdullah bin Amr They were youths, like disciples or apprentices, from noble Quraish families of believers who were totally devout worshippers, and who learned from him while serving him, tending to his needs- they were constantly with him.

    Then there were his official scribes.
    Narrated Qatadah: I asked Anas Ibn Malik: ‘Who collected the Qur’an at the time of Prophet?’ He replied: ‘Four, all of whom were from the Ansar: Ubay Ibn Ka‘ab, Mu‘adh Ibn Jabal, Zayd Ibn Thabit and Abu Zayd.’ [sahih Bukhari]

    And Zayd ibn Harith narrated "We used to compile the Qur’an from small scraps in the presence of the Messenger [sahih Hakim]

    80:11-16
    By no means! Indeed it is a message of Instruction
    Therefore, whoever wills, should remember
    On leaves held in honour
    Exalted, purified
    In the hands of scribes
    Noble and pious
    So his family, his close disciple companions, his scribes, were the immediate memorizers and recorders of the Holy Quran. And once a revelation was made, it was transmitted to others not present such that they would record it immediately and memorize it so that they could update their knowledge. And then they would recite it back to the Prophet and those around him.

    Ibn Mas'ud (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
    I heard the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) saying, "May Allah freshen the affairs of a person who hears something from us and communicates it to others exactly as he has heard it (i.e., both the meaning and the words), for it may be that the recipient of knowledge understands it better than the one who has heard it. [sahih Tirmidhi]

    But forgetfulness being human nature, people were always prone to forget portions.

    Abu Musa reported the Prophet said "Read this Qur’aan regularly for, by the One in Whose hand is the soul of Muhammad, it is more likely to escape than a hobbled camel.” [sahih Muslim]

    Abdullah reported the Prophet said: “It is not right for any one of you to say, ‘I have forgotten such and such.’ On the contrary, he has been made to forget. Try to review the Qur’aan, for it is more likely to escape from men’s hearts than camels.” [sahih Bukhari]

    Ibn Umar reported the Prophet said: “The likeness of the one who memorizes the Qur’aan is that of the owner of a hobbled camel. If he tends to it regularly, he will keep it, but if he lets it go, he will lose it.” [sahih Bukhari]

    So it is known that forgetfulness is an inclination of all people, even the Prophet . But Allah AWJ promised to preserve the Holy Quran despite human weakness.

    56:77-80
    This is a glorious Reading, In a book well-kept,
    Which none but the purified teach
    This is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds"
    85:21,22
    But this is an honored Qur'an
    On a guarded tablet.
    75:16-19
    Move not thy tongue concerning the (Qur'an) to make
    haste therewith. It is for Us to collect it and promulgate
    it; but when We have promulgated it, follow thou its recital
    So the most trusted Jibril taught each aya to the Prophet until he memorized it. And every night in the holy month of Ramadan, the angel Jibril would go the Prophet to review and recite the Quran with him.

    Narated By Ibn 'Abbas : The Prophet was the most generous person, and he used to become more so (generous) particularly in the month of Ramadan because Gabriel used to meet him every night of the month of Ramadan till it elapsed. Allah's Apostle used to recite the Qur'an for him. When Gabriel met him, he used to become more generous than the fast wind in doing good. [sahih Bukhari]

    Narrated Abu-Huraira: Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur'an with the Prophet once a year (during Ramadan), but he repeated it twice with him in the year he died. The Prophet used to stay in I'tikaf for ten days every year (in the month of Ramadan), but in the year of his death, he stayed in I'tikaf for twenty days. [sahih Bukhari]

    So the authentic narrations actually establish that the Prophet had successfully transmitted the Holy Quran and the Message of Islam to mankind, despite the frailty of Man towards forgetfulness. And it is NOT that the Prophet had entirely forgotten ayat, but that at the moment of the recitation, they came to his immediate awareness and revived in him the memory of their revelation and meaning and closeness to him.

    And Allah knows best.
    Last edited by Abu Kamel; 01-08-17 at 12:13 PM.
    Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
    " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

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    Re: Evidence for preservation of Quran

    Quote Originally Posted by mekovi View Post
    I'm giving dawah to an atheist. I was able to show him certain structural and linguistic aspects of the Quran. But not being able to prove that the Quran has been preserved over the 1400 years due to my lack of knowledge kinda detailed that attempt lol (since he can claim that they took their time structuring the book like that, which you and I know is impossible because of how it was transmitted by Rasoolallah (pbuh))

    Anyone know a good source that can prove it?

    Jazakhallah Khair
    Read this, Osama Abdallah also uses this site and vouched for it. Personally I've read a few articles but not all:
    http://www.islamic-awareness.org/

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    Re: Evidence for preservation of Quran

    Quote Originally Posted by yuri.g View Post
    The only thing that can convince you about the 100% preservation of the Quran is your faith. Oral records can never be reliable.

    There are hadith traditions that tell us that even Prophet Muhammad could forget what was revealed to him.

    [Sahih al-Bukhari 5038] Narrated Aisha: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) heard a man reciting the Qur'an at night, and said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such-and-such Suras, which I was caused to forget."

    [Sahih al-Bukhari 5037] Narrated Aisha: The Prophet (ﷺ) heard a man reciting the Qur'an in the mosque and said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such a Surah."


    Companions of the Prophet also used to forget the verses:

    [Sahih al-Bukhari 5039] Narrated `Abdullah: The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Why does anyone of the people say, 'I have forgotten such-and-such Verses (of the Qur'an)?' He, in fact, is caused (by Allah) to forget."

    There are verses that are mentioned in Hadiths but you don't find them in the Quran and there is no record in the Quran or Hadith telling us what happened to them:

    [Sahih Muslim 1691 a] 'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (ﷺ) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.


    PS: there is a thread about the linguistics of the Quran in this section. Can you please post about the linguistic aspects of the Quran there? - Thanks
    Lol at you surface level skimmer, BASIC atheists.

    Thanks brothers (and sisters?) for the help.

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    Odan talibilm09's Avatar
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    Re: Evidence for preservation of Quran

    Quote Originally Posted by mekovi View Post
    I'm giving dawah to an atheist. I was able to show him certain structural and linguistic aspects of the Quran. But not being able to prove that the Quran has been preserved over the 1400 years due to my lack of knowledge kinda detailed that attempt lol (since he can claim that they took their time structuring the book like that, which you and I know is impossible because of how it was transmitted by Rasoolallah (pbuh))

    Anyone know a good source that can prove it?

    Jazakhallah Khair


    The Glorious quran has been protected by Allah by almost a triple check method
    1) written (manuscripts , affirmed copy at tashkent)
    2) memorized
    3) taught to others & practised , implemented

    unlike no other book on the face of the earth .The Glorious Quran which has the credibility of 10,000's of witnesses who Heard it directly from Prophet and immediately written and memorized since it has to recited daily in 5 time prayer without being held on hands that makes memorization the ONLY resort from day 1.


    kindly refer to post # 42 for more

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...hs%20post%2042
    My sect - No Sect

    My Aqeedah - http://legacy.quran.com/112 ( The Aqeedah of Sahabas)

    Just a Muslim

  8. #8
    Odan talibilm09's Avatar
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    Re: Evidence for preservation of Quran

    @mekovi

    Quote Originally Posted by yuri.g View Post
    The only thing that can convince you about the 100% preservation of the Quran is your faith. Oral records can never be reliable.

    There are hadith traditions that tell us that even Prophet Muhammad could forget what was revealed to him.

    [Sahih al-Bukhari 5038] Narrated Aisha: Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) heard a man reciting the Qur'an at night, and said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such-and-such Suras, which I was caused to forget."

    [Sahih al-Bukhari 5037] Narrated Aisha: The Prophet (ﷺ) heard a man reciting the Qur'an in the mosque and said, "May Allah bestow His Mercy on him, as he has reminded me of such-and-such Verses of such a Surah."


    Companions of the Prophet also used to forget the verses:

    [Sahih al-Bukhari 5039] Narrated `Abdullah: The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Why does anyone of the people say, 'I have forgotten such-and-such Verses (of the Qur'an)?' He, in fact, is caused (by Allah) to forget."

    There are verses that are mentioned in Hadiths but you don't find them in the Quran and there is no record in the Quran or Hadith telling us what happened to them:

    [Sahih Muslim 1691 a] 'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (ﷺ) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.


    PS: there is a thread about the linguistics of the Quran in this section. Can you please post about the linguistic aspects of the Quran there? - Thanks
    When we talk about a subject we do not point out exceptions first but you did that insteadof giving the 99 favorable points in the preservation of the Glorious Quran .

    Your points of forgetting comes under this thread from post # 24 onwards

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...-Contradicting


    Note : the Glorious Quran was the same during the first & final affirmation by Caliph Uthman about 20 years after demise of our Prophet (not compilation in one book form that was already done 1 yr after prophet's demise by Abu bakr ) as it was during the demise of Prophet is the GIST here
    Last edited by talibilm09; 17-09-17 at 12:14 PM.
    My sect - No Sect

    My Aqeedah - http://legacy.quran.com/112 ( The Aqeedah of Sahabas)

    Just a Muslim

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    Re: Evidence for preservation of Quran

    Here is another exception perhaps:

    It is narrated from Aasim bin Bahdala, he from Zirr, he said: Ubayy bin Ka’b said to me; “How much of Surah Ahzab do you recite or how much do you count [its verses to be]?” Zirr said that he replied, “Seventy-three verses.” Ubayy said; “Only this much, verily I use to see it and it was equal to Surah Baqarah (286 verses) and we used to recite in it, ‘Whenever an aged man or aged woman commit fornication stone them as a punishment from Allah and Allah is All-Knowing, Wise.’” (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 21245)


    Ibn Hazm (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

    This is a clearly saheeh isnaad, as clear as the sun, in which there is no fault. End quote.

    Ibn Katheer (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

    This is a hasan isnaad. This implies that there were more verses in it, then the wording and ruling were both abrogated. And Allah knows best.

    End quote from Tafseer Ibn Katheer (6/335)


    Surah al-baqarah is the longest chapter of the Quran with 286 verses. Does that mean 200+ verses from Surah al-Ahzab are missing or abrogated?

    To a sceptic non-believer that kind of abrogation doesn't befit an all knowing god, i'm afraid.

  10. #10
    Odan talibilm09's Avatar
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    Re: Evidence for preservation of Quran

    Quote Originally Posted by yuri.g View Post
    Here is another exception perhaps:

    It is narrated from Aasim bin Bahdala, he from Zirr, he said: Ubayy bin Ka’b said to me; “How much of Surah Ahzab do you recite or how much do you count [its verses to be]?” Zirr said that he replied, “Seventy-three verses.” Ubayy said; “Only this much, verily I use to see it and it was equal to Surah Baqarah (286 verses) and we used to recite in it, ‘Whenever an aged man or aged woman commit fornication stone them as a punishment from Allah and Allah is All-Knowing, Wise.’” (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 21245)


    Ibn Hazm (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

    This is a clearly saheeh isnaad, as clear as the sun, in which there is no fault. End quote.

    Ibn Katheer (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

    This is a hasan isnaad. This implies that there were more verses in it, then the wording and ruling were both abrogated. And Allah knows best.

    End quote from Tafseer Ibn Katheer (6/335)


    Surah al-baqarah is the longest chapter of the Quran with 286 verses. Does that mean 200+ verses from Surah al-Ahzab are missing or abrogated?

    To a sceptic non-believer that kind of abrogation doesn't befit an all knowing god, i'm afraid.
    I did not find it Sahih Muslim or Bukhari but even the hadith you quote is authentic there is nothing wrong in it except with the UNBELIEVER's cocked eye view

    For a true believer its more befitting to accept Allah;s decision through his Prophet what are the verses to be in the glorious Quran and what are to be CAUSED to be forgotten as in the post # 33

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...-Contradicting

    which ALSO proves the glorious Quran never has even a single verse of man fused verses ( about the forgotten verses since they did remember which verses were they and their text but could have forgotten the arrangement of exact revealed words ) So its from the wisdom of Allah to happen so as a test to them like even those other people of the book would have been tested too ( so a few were to be excluded from the total mushaf of about 6000+ verses) and that's why Angel Gibraeel AS was revising it once every ramadhan but twice in the last ramadhan of Prophet CONFIRMING THE GIST that the Glorious Quran is the same as it was left with us when the Prophet Allah bid farewell to us,
    Last edited by talibilm09; 19-09-17 at 02:23 PM.
    My sect - No Sect

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    Just a Muslim

 

 

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