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  1. #1

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    Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Today Czech Republic has the largest percentage of atheist with atleast 37% declaring themselves as convinced atheists.

    The story of atheism in Czech republic along with some other European countries can be traced to the Thirty Years' War between Protestants and Catholics. Europeans slaughtered each other like pigs resulting in 8 million deaths.

    Interestingly this war was started between Catholic Austria and Bohemia(modern day Czech republic). The Bohemians had suffered a lot which contributed to their distaste for religion.

    Among one of the results of the Thirty years' war was secularism. Luther promoted the idea of finding your personal god and interpretation of the Bible. This was in many ways the embryo of secularism.

    Now then,

    We have a similar conflict between Shias led by Iran and sunnis led by uh......no one I guess. Saudis are meanwhile fighting their own separate cold war against Iran.

    This conflict has already led to destruction of many Syrian and Iraqi cities along with much loss of life.

    Given that religion is blamed as one of the main reasons of this war, how long before people decide that religion is the cause of all the violence and say," Let's get rid off it." Could the middle eastern and north African people end up secularized into atheism as a result of this conflict like Europe was?

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicen View Post
    Today Czech Republic has the largest percentage of atheist with atleast 37% declaring themselves as convinced atheists.

    The story of atheism in Czech republic along with some other European countries can be traced to the Thirty Years' War between Protestants and Catholics. Europeans slaughtered each other like pigs resulting in 8 million deaths.

    Interestingly this war was started between Catholic Austria and Bohemia(modern day Czech republic). The Bohemians had suffered a lot which contributed to their distaste for religion.

    Among one of the results of the Thirty years' war was secularism. Luther promoted the idea of finding your personal god and interpretation of the Bible. This was in many ways the embryo of secularism.

    Now then,

    We have a similar conflict between Shias led by Iran and sunnis led by uh......no one I guess. Saudis are meanwhile fighting their own separate cold war against Iran.

    This conflict has already led to destruction of many Syrian and Iraqi cities along with much loss of life.

    Given that religion is blamed as one of the main reasons of this war, how long before people decide that religion is the cause of all the violence and say," Let's get rid off it." Could the middle eastern and north African people end up secularized into atheism as a result of this conflict like Europe was?
    It will happen the Prophet said that in the end times the Muslim population will decrease before it dominates it doesn't matter though there will always remain a group of Muslims.

  3. #3
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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicen View Post
    Today Czech Republic has the largest percentage of atheist with atleast 37% declaring themselves as convinced atheists.

    The story of atheism in Czech republic along with some other European countries can be traced to the Thirty Years' War between Protestants and Catholics. Europeans slaughtered each other like pigs resulting in 8 million deaths.

    Interestingly this war was started between Catholic Austria and Bohemia(modern day Czech republic). The Bohemians had suffered a lot which contributed to their distaste for religion.

    Among one of the results of the Thirty years' war was secularism. Luther promoted the idea of finding your personal god and interpretation of the Bible. This was in many ways the embryo of secularism.

    Now then,

    We have a similar conflict between Shias led by Iran and sunnis led by uh......no one I guess. Saudis are meanwhile fighting their own separate cold war against Iran.

    This conflict has already led to destruction of many Syrian and Iraqi cities along with much loss of life.

    Given that religion is blamed as one of the main reasons of this war, how long before people decide that religion is the cause of all the violence and say," Let's get rid off it." Could the middle eastern and north African people end up secularized into atheism as a result of this conflict like Europe was?
    I think not, and the basic reason is because the Sunni-Shia conflict is much older than 30 years.

    So this is another chapter in the 1300 year War.

    This War will not finish with the destruction or takeover of one city or one country.

    1000 years ago Egypt was a Shia country. Sunnis took it over but Shiasm did not finish.

    500 years ago Iran was a Sunni country. Shias took it over but Sunni Islam did not finish.

    I believe this War will continue until the prophecy is fulfilled that Dajjal will rise from Isfahan (Iran).

    As for producing Atheists, many people in Iran are already atheists - its a byproduct of being ruled by a religious
    dogma that does not make sense.

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Jarir View Post
    It will happen the Prophet said that in the end times the Muslim population will decrease before it dominates it doesn't matter though there will always remain a group of Muslims.
    That is long after Mahdi, Dajjal, Isa (as) etc. It is also after the "Rapture" (when the souls of the believers are taken by a divine wind).

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    I don't fear so much atheism or secularism being widespread in the Islamic world. I fear backwardness manifesting itself as tribalism, sectarianism and authoritarianism.

    I have two points I want to make about the so called Shia-Sunni conflict:
    1. Saudi-Arabia doesn't represent and certainly doesn't rule over all Sunnis. Same goes for Iran. Although they rule over a bigger proportion, not all Shias are ruled or represented by Iran.
    2. We Muslims must make a distinction between state hostilities and the plurality of Islam. We should promote theological dialogue based on intellectualism, reason and logic.

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by coffeecat View Post
    I think not, and the basic reason is because the Sunni-Shia conflict is much older than 30 years.

    So this is another chapter in the 1300 year War.

    This War will not finish with the destruction or takeover of one city or one country.

    1000 years ago Egypt was a Shia country. Sunnis took it over but Shiasm did not finish.

    500 years ago Iran was a Sunni country. Shias took it over but Sunni Islam did not finish.

    I believe this War will continue until the prophecy is fulfilled that Dajjal will rise from Isfahan (Iran).

    As for producing Atheists, many people in Iran are already atheists - its a byproduct of being ruled by a religious
    dogma that does not make sense.
    The fatimids were Ismailis and were fundamentally a different "ummah" from the one in Iran- just like salafis and Sufis are fundamentally different ummahs- which was fueled by Persian nationalism. Putting both together is oversimplification.

    Anyway, various political elements such as Habsburg- France rivalry, Habsburg-Bohemian rivalry, etc preceded long before the thirty years' war.

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Amazigh View Post
    I don't fear so much atheism or secularism being widespread in the Islamic world.
    You think wrong.

    Secularism, atheism and westernization are the single biggest existential threat to Islam.

    I think you're new to political aspects of islam. Once you know more you will understood.

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicen View Post
    You think wrong.

    Secularism, atheism and westernization are the single biggest existential threat to Islam.

    I think you're new to political aspects of islam. Once you know more you will understood.
    You said yourself this backwardness (sectarianism) leads to increase in atheism and secularism.
    Thus it is only logical to tackle the problem by it's roots.
    If the Islamic world was actually intellectually capable, atheism would never gain any momentum.

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    I think a big population in Iran and Saudia is already far from religion and they just have to abide by the local laws and regulations. You should see them when they are on holidays. You can observe that in bars and nightclubs of Bahrain on Thursday and Friday and registrations numbers on all the cars parked outside.

    In my opinion it's Allah who guides or misguides not environment, education, wars, secularism or sectarianism. You can find the people with totally opposite views in the same family.

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicen View Post
    Today Czech Republic has the largest percentage of atheist with atleast 37% declaring themselves as convinced atheists.

    The story of atheism in Czech republic along with some other European countries can be traced to the Thirty Years' War between Protestants and Catholics. Europeans slaughtered each other like pigs resulting in 8 million deaths.

    Interestingly this war was started between Catholic Austria and Bohemia(modern day Czech republic). The Bohemians had suffered a lot which contributed to their distaste for religion.

    Among one of the results of the Thirty years' war was secularism. Luther promoted the idea of finding your personal god and interpretation of the Bible. This was in many ways the embryo of secularism.

    Now then,

    We have a similar conflict between Shias led by Iran and sunnis led by uh......no one I guess. Saudis are meanwhile fighting their own separate cold war against Iran.

    This conflict has already led to destruction of many Syrian and Iraqi cities along with much loss of life.

    Given that religion is blamed as one of the main reasons of this war, how long before people decide that religion is the cause of all the violence and say," Let's get rid off it." Could the middle eastern and north African people end up secularized into atheism as a result of this conflict like Europe was?
    The Thirty Years' War ended over three hundred and fifty years ago, so it's not likely to have had much connexion with the number of atheists in the Czech Republic today/

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by abutarekh View Post
    I think a big population in Iran and Saudia is already far from religion and they just have to abide by the local laws and regulations. You should see them when they are on holidays. You can observe that in bars and nightclubs of Bahrain on Thursday and Friday and registrations numbers on all the cars parked outside.

    In my opinion it's Allah who guides or misguides not environment, education, wars, secularism or sectarianism. You can find the people with totally opposite views in the same family.
    Iran's atheists are relatively known. I don't think there are too many atheists in KSA, maybe liberals who break rules and taboos but not convinced atheists.

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    موحد Abd al-Rahman's Avatar
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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Amazigh View Post
    I don't fear so much atheism or secularism being widespread in the Islamic world. I fear backwardness manifesting itself as tribalism, sectarianism and authoritarianism.

    I have two points I want to make about the so called Shia-Sunni conflict:
    1. Saudi-Arabia doesn't represent and certainly doesn't rule over all Sunnis. Same goes for Iran. Although they rule over a bigger proportion, not all Shias are ruled or represented by Iran.
    2. We Muslims must make a distinction between state hostilities and the plurality of Islam. We should promote theological dialogue based on intellectualism, reason and logic.
    You sound like a modernist. We consider the deen based on the Qur'an and sunnah, not based on our own desires and reasoning
    وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
    They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
    You sound like a modernist. We consider the deen based on the Qur'an and sunnah, not based on our own desires and reasoning
    Because logic and reason go against the Qur'an and Sunnah?

    "Surely the worst of beasts in God's sight are those that are deaf and dumb and do not reason." (Qur'an 8:22)

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    موحد Abd al-Rahman's Avatar
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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Amazigh View Post
    Because logic and reason go against the Qur'an and Sunnah?

    "Surely the worst of beasts in God's sight are those that are deaf and dumb and do not reason." (Qur'an 8:22)
    This refers to thinking and contemplating about the signs of Allah to come to the conclusion that Islam is true, and believing in Islam. Has nothing to do with religious opinions.

    But when we consider issues such as fiqh rulings and aqeedah, "reason" enters into it only in deductions like qiyas, but even that is through weighing the evidence from the qur'an and sunnah. My point is, never in Islam do we say "well this is part of the religion or this isn't because I feel this way, or because this makes sense to me." Countless sects in the past went astray and outside of Islam using similar reasoning. Why dont you look up the tafseer of that ayah before you try to take others out context again, try tafsir ibn kathir, he was a real scholar who did not rule in accordance to his desires.
    وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
    They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
    This refers to thinking and contemplating about the signs of Allah to come to the conclusion that Islam is true, and believing in Islam. Has nothing to do with religious opinions.

    But when we consider issues such as fiqh rulings and aqeedah, "reason" enters into it only in deductions like qiyas, but even that is through weighing the evidence from the qur'an and sunnah. My point is, never in Islam do we say "well this is part of the religion or this isn't because I feel this way, or because this makes sense to me." Countless sects in the past went astray and outside of Islam using similar reasoning. Why dont you look up the tafseer of that ayah before you try to take others out context again, try tafsir ibn kathir, he was a real scholar who did not rule in accordance to his desires.
    You just gave me your own interpretation on that verse of the Qur'an.

    "And He lays abomination upon those who do not reason." (Qur'an 10:100)

    Reason is an important aspect to come up with a conclusion. Allah (SWT) gave us a brain to think and intellect to advance.

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    الإسلام هو الحقيقة Abū ʿĪsa al-ʿAjamī's Avatar
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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Amazigh View Post
    You just gave me your own interpretation on that verse of the Qur'an.

    "And He lays abomination upon those who do not reason." (Qur'an 10:100)

    Reason is an important aspect to come up with a conclusion. Allah (SWT) gave us a brain to think and intellect to advance.
    Err...

    The Mutazilites went astray by doing the above
    If following Aḥmad makes me a 'Wahhābī', then I declare that I am one.

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    An-Najdi abufulaans's Avatar
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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Amazigh View Post
    Because logic and reason go against the Qur'an and Sunnah?

    "Surely the worst of beasts in God's sight are those that are deaf and dumb and do not reason." (Qur'an 8:22)
    Ever read the tafseer of that verse? Do you even know what it means?
    ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

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    An-Najdi abufulaans's Avatar
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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Amazigh View Post
    You just gave me your own interpretation on that verse of the Qur'an.

    "And He lays abomination upon those who do not reason." (Qur'an 10:100)

    Reason is an important aspect to come up with a conclusion. Allah (SWT) gave us a brain to think and intellect to advance.
    وعن علي رضي الله عنه ، أنه قال : لو كان الدين بالرأي لكان أسفل الخف أولى بالمسح من أعلاه ، وقد رأيت رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يمسح على ظاهر خفيه

    Ali RA said, if the deen was (understood/actions carried out) using intellect, then the lower part of the khuff would be wiped instead of the top
    ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    Ever read the tafseer of that verse? Do you even know what it means?
    Yes I do.

    Do you understand what "يَعْقِلُونَ" means?

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    An-Najdi abufulaans's Avatar
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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Amazigh View Post
    Yes I do.

    Do you understand what "يَعْقِلُونَ" means?
    What you said previously was wrong, rather the sound aql does not go against the Quran


    ثم أخبر تعالى أن هذا الضرب من بني آدم شر الخلق والخليقة فقال:"إن شر الدواب عند الله الصم" أي عن سماع الحق "البكم" عن فهمه ولهذا قال "الذين لا يعقلون" فهؤلاء شر البرية لأن كل دابة مما سواهم مطيعة لله فيما خلقها له وهؤلاء خلقوا للعبادة فكفروا ولهذا شبههم بالأنعام في قوله "ومثل الذين كفروا كمثل الذي ينعق بما لا يسمع إلا دعاء ونداء" الآية وقال في الآية الأخرى "أولئك كالأنعام بل هم أضل أولئك هم الغافلون" وقيل المراد بهؤلاء المذكورين نفر من بني عبدالدار من قريش. روي عن ابن عباس ومجاهد واختاره ابن جرير. وقال محمد بن إسحق هم `المنافقون. قلت ولا منافاة بين المشركين والمنافقين في هذا لأن كلا منهم مسلوب الفهم الصحيح والقصد إلى العمل الصالح.
    ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    What you said previously was wrong, rather the sound aql does not go against the Quran


    ثم أخبر تعالى أن هذا الضرب من بني آدم شر الخلق والخليقة فقال:"إن شر الدواب عند الله الصم" أي عن سماع الحق "البكم" عن فهمه ولهذا قال "الذين لا يعقلون" فهؤلاء شر البرية لأن كل دابة مما سواهم مطيعة لله فيما خلقها له وهؤلاء خلقوا للعبادة فكفروا ولهذا شبههم بالأنعام في قوله "ومثل الذين كفروا كمثل الذي ينعق بما لا يسمع إلا دعاء ونداء" الآية وقال في الآية الأخرى "أولئك كالأنعام بل هم أضل أولئك هم الغافلون" وقيل المراد بهؤلاء المذكورين نفر من بني عبدالدار من قريش. روي عن ابن عباس ومجاهد واختاره ابن جرير. وقال محمد بن إسحق هم `المنافقون. قلت ولا منافاة بين المشركين والمنافقين في هذا لأن كلا منهم مسلوب الفهم الصحيح والقصد إلى العمل الصالح.
    What makes you believe?

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    Odan Thunderstorm's Avatar
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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    I doubt atheism arose as a result of what they suffered from a certain group or groups. It's just a cop-out people always use to justify whatever decision they make; we suffered, therefore we can do [fill in blank].
    I dare to make the bold statement that there never was a person who is humble and lives in poverty and is an atheist, and that there never will be one.
    Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

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    An-Najdi abufulaans's Avatar
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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Amazigh View Post
    What makes you believe?
    Akhi, theres a big difference between using aql to accept Islam as the truth, and using aql for islamic law in a manner that is incorrect
    ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstorm View Post
    I doubt atheism arose as a result of what they suffered from a certain group or groups. It's just a cop-out people always use to justify whatever decision they make; we suffered, therefore we can do [fill in blank].
    I dare to make the bold statement that there never was a person who is humble and lives in poverty and is an atheist, and that there never will be one.
    Communists; working class people?

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Amazigh View Post
    Yes I do.

    Do you understand what "يَعْقِلُونَ" means?
    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    Akhi, theres a big difference between using aql to accept Islam as the truth, and using aql for islamic law in a manner that is incorrect
    Precisely, amazigh read this post of abufulaans, then read it again, then read it again. He said it much more eloquently than I did. Those ayat in the quran concerning reason and reflection refer to issues of iman, how do we come to the conclusion Islam is the truth, reflecting on the signs of Allah, and things of that manner, and if you read the tafseer of these ayat, the mfasireen have pointed this out, and you will find that these ayat are almost all addressing the disbelievers, or they are heart softening ayat to increase the Muslims in iman.

    However, when it comes to forming religious judgements and opinions, we find ayat like

    Ahzab 36. It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.

    Nisaa 59. O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

    An noor 51. The only statement of the [true] believers when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them is that they say, "We hear and we obey." And those are the successful.

    Nisaa 65. But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Muhammad], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] submission.

    And I could find many more ayat, and also many hadith on this subject. Whenever we have a dispute, or a question in our religion, we return the issue to Qur'an and sunnah, not our own reasoning. Whatever the quran and sunnah says, we obey it absolutely and we have no problems with it, as you can see in the ayat above, that is true Iman.

    So you were incorrect in what you said Amazigh, the dispute with the shia is judged in accordance with the quran and the sunnah of the Prophet(saw), not our reasoning and intellects. We compare the beliefs of the shia and their ibadah and their actions and their founders to the quran, and what the ulema have found is that shias have committed kufr and shirk in many different aspects of their beliefs, and contradicted many ayat of the Qur'an. And as an additional proof, Ali ibn Abi Talib(ra), who the shia deify and worship aside Allah, actually executed early members of their sect for apostasy because of their deificiation of him. So after we come to the conclusion that shias have apostasized from the religion, we once again return to the quran and sunnah, and determine what should be done to apostates...The texts are quire clear on this matter, especially in tbe sunnah
    وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
    They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

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    Odan ALAS's Avatar
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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicen View Post
    Today Czech Republic has the largest percentage of atheist with atleast 37% declaring themselves as convinced atheists.
    The story of atheism in Czech republic along with some other European countries can be traced to the Thirty Years' War between Protestants and Catholics. Europeans slaughtered each other like pigs resulting in 8 million deaths.
    Interestingly this war was started between Catholic Austria and Bohemia(modern day Czech republic). The Bohemians had suffered a lot which contributed to their distaste for religion.
    Among one of the results of the Thirty years' war was secularism. Luther promoted the idea of finding your personal god and interpretation of the Bible. This was in many ways the embryo of secularism.
    Now then,
    We have a similar conflict between Shias led by Iran and sunnis led by uh......no one I guess. Saudis are meanwhile fighting their own separate cold war against Iran.
    This conflict has already led to destruction of many Syrian and Iraqi cities along with much loss of life.
    Given that religion is blamed as one of the main reasons of this war, how long before people decide that religion is the cause of all the violence and say," Let's get rid off it." Could the middle eastern and north African people end up secularized into atheism as a result of this conflict like Europe was?
    Yes one of the aims behind these fake sectarian conflicts and fitnahs is to disappoint the next generations of middle east from religion. But I think the basis of Islam is much more stronger than Christianity. We should not forget that Christianity was expired.

    But Islam is different, it is still fresh and it is still intact. All the other so called Islamic governments or inheritable kingdoms which may be mistakenly called caliphate like Abbasids, Ottomans, Safavids and ..... could not reflect the reality of Islam and could not take advantage of it's potentials. The more science improves the more the validity of Islam becomes vivid. The more people become frustrated from man-made ideologies the more they turn back towards Islam and this fact that humanism can not manage the world.

    So I think these fitnahs in the middle east improve the worldview of it's people and will help them to distinguish wrong and right better and will help them to decide for themselves better.
    Note: I am a shia.

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by ALAS View Post
    Yes one of the aims behind these fake sectarian conflicts and fitnahs is to disappoint the next generations of middle east from religion. But I think the basis of Islam is much more stronger than Christianity. We should not forget that Christianity was expired.

    But Islam is different, it is still fresh and it is still intact. All the other so called Islamic governments or inheritable kingdoms which may be mistakenly called caliphate like Abbasids, Ottomans, Safavids and ..... could not reflect the reality of Islam and could not take advantage of it's potentials. The more science improves the more the validity of Islam becomes vivid. The more people become frustrated from man-made ideologies the more they turn back towards Islam and this fact that humanism can not manage the world.

    So I think these fitnahs in the middle east improve the worldview of it's people and will help them to distinguish wrong and right better and will help them to decide for themselves better.
    Now don't pretend that Iran has no blame in this though.

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    Odan Thunderstorm's Avatar
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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicen View Post
    Communists; working class people?
    I don't consider them poor.
    In communist countries, of the poor, only the greedy and/or arrogant become communists AFAIK.
    Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstorm View Post
    I don't consider them poor.
    In communist countries, of the poor, only the greedy and/or arrogant become communists AFAIK.
    In the end communism is an elaborate form of dictatorship and elitism. Elitism is the same thing communism was supposed to stop.

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Amazigh View Post
    Because logic and reason go against the Qur'an and Sunnah?

    "Surely the worst of beasts in God's sight are those that are deaf and dumb and do not reason." (Qur'an 8:22)
    The problem is the bundle of balloney you posted,

    Can you get straight to the point instead of beating around the bush?

    Did you read the Tafsir of the Ayah you cited?
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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by ALAS View Post
    Yes one of the aims behind these fake sectarian conflicts and fitnahs is to disappoint the next generations of middle east from religion. But I think the basis of Islam is much more stronger than Christianity. We should not forget that Christianity was expired.

    But Islam is different, it is still fresh and it is still intact. All the other so called Islamic governments or inheritable kingdoms which may be mistakenly called caliphate like Abbasids, Ottomans, Safavids and ..... could not reflect the reality of Islam and could not take advantage of it's potentials. The more science improves the more the validity of Islam becomes vivid. The more people become frustrated from man-made ideologies the more they turn back towards Islam and this fact that humanism can not manage the world.

    So I think these fitnahs in the middle east improve the worldview of it's people and will help them to distinguish wrong and right better and will help them to decide for themselves better.
    Problem with Iran is that it's a den for Kuffar Shi'a,

    Breeding all streets of Kufr/Shirk,

    نعوذ بالله من ذلك
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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
    Precisely, amazigh read this post of abufulaans, then read it again, then read it again. He said it much more eloquently than I did. Those ayat in the quran concerning reason and reflection refer to issues of iman, how do we come to the conclusion Islam is the truth, reflecting on the signs of Allah, and things of that manner, and if you read the tafseer of these ayat, the mfasireen have pointed this out, and you will find that these ayat are almost all addressing the disbelievers, or they are heart softening ayat to increase the Muslims in iman.

    However, when it comes to forming religious judgements and opinions, we find ayat like

    Ahzab 36. It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.

    Nisaa 59. O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.

    An noor 51. The only statement of the [true] believers when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them is that they say, "We hear and we obey." And those are the successful.

    Nisaa 65. But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Muhammad], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] submission.

    And I could find many more ayat, and also many hadith on this subject. Whenever we have a dispute, or a question in our religion, we return the issue to Qur'an and sunnah, not our own reasoning. Whatever the quran and sunnah says, we obey it absolutely and we have no problems with it, as you can see in the ayat above, that is true Iman.

    So you were incorrect in what you said Amazigh, the dispute with the shia is judged in accordance with the quran and the sunnah of the Prophet(saw), not our reasoning and intellects. We compare the beliefs of the shia and their ibadah and their actions and their founders to the quran, and what the ulema have found is that shias have committed kufr and shirk in many different aspects of their beliefs, and contradicted many ayat of the Qur'an. And as an additional proof, Ali ibn Abi Talib(ra), who the shia deify and worship aside Allah, actually executed early members of their sect for apostasy because of their deificiation of him. So after we come to the conclusion that shias have apostasized from the religion, we once again return to the quran and sunnah, and determine what should be done to apostates...The texts are quire clear on this matter, especially in tbe sunnah
    Okay your point is clear. But my next question, how do you apply Sharia in the 21th century without using reason and logic? And what is your opinion of past scholars who had great intellect when it came to Islamic thought, philosophy, biology and science in general? They applied logic and reasoning all the time.

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    I've always (unfairly) compared Sunnis to Protestants, and Shia to Catholics. It was the Protestants (like Sunnis) who saw Catholics (like Shia) as superstitious degenerates ruled by a half-pagan clergy, while the Protestants themselves (like Sunni) returned to scripture and - especially Puritans (like Salafi) - rejected the sanctity of objects/shrines thus reducing everything to merely material value.

    Eventually I think these elements will lead to individualist materialistic atheism in the Sunni world (like Britain today), and revolutionary secularism in the Shia world (like France).

    Of course I'm just guessing, and the Sunni-Shia conflict has only just begun in Europe, Africa and South East Asia...
    Last edited by oakandivy; 30-09-17 at 08:43 PM. Reason: Minor changes

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by oakandivy View Post
    I've always (unfairly) compared Sunnis to Protestants, and Shia to Catholics. It was the Protestants (like Sunnis) who saw Catholics (like Shia) as superstitious degenerates ruled by a half-pagan clergy, while the Protestants themselves (like Sunni) returned to scripture and - especially Puritans (like Salafi) - rejected the sanctity of objects/shrines thus reducing everything to merely material value.

    Eventually I think these elements will lead to individualist materialistic atheism in the Sunni world (like Britain today), and revolutionary secularism in the Shia world (like France).

    Of course I'm just guessing, and the Sunni-Shia conflict has only just begun in Europe, Africa and South East Asia...
    South-East Asia?

    So far there's no bad blood between sunnis and shias in Bangladesh and India.

    But your descriptions are eeringly accurate.

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    striving to be sincere Abu Kamel's Avatar
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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by oakandivy View Post
    I've always (unfairly) compared Sunnis to Protestants, and Shia to Catholics. It was the Protestants (like Sunnis) who saw Catholics (like Shia) as superstitious degenerates ruled by a half-pagan clergy, while the Protestants themselves (like Sunni) returned to scripture and - especially Puritans (like Salafi) - rejected the sanctity of objects/shrines thus reducing everything to merely material value.

    Eventually I think these elements will lead to individualist materialistic atheism in the Sunni world (like Britain today), and revolutionary secularism in the Shia world (like France).

    Of course I'm just guessing, and the Sunni-Shia conflict has only just begun in Europe, Africa and South East Asia...


    You should NOT compare Sunnis and Shia to Protestants and Catholics. There is no REAL analogy.
    Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
    " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicen View Post
    Today Czech Republic has the largest percentage of atheist with atleast 37% declaring themselves as convinced atheists.

    The story of atheism in Czech republic along with some other European countries can be traced to the Thirty Years' War between Protestants and Catholics. Europeans slaughtered each other like pigs resulting in 8 million deaths.

    Interestingly this war was started between Catholic Austria and Bohemia(modern day Czech republic). The Bohemians had suffered a lot which contributed to their distaste for religion.

    Among one of the results of the Thirty years' war was secularism. Luther promoted the idea of finding your personal god and interpretation of the Bible. This was in many ways the embryo of secularism.

    Now then,

    We have a similar conflict between Shias led by Iran and sunnis led by uh......no one I guess. Saudis are meanwhile fighting their own separate cold war against Iran.

    This conflict has already led to destruction of many Syrian and Iraqi cities along with much loss of life.

    Given that religion is blamed as one of the main reasons of this war, how long before people decide that religion is the cause of all the violence and say," Let's get rid off it." Could the middle eastern and north African people end up secularized into atheism as a result of this conflict like Europe was?
    how is dajjal gona set up and be mr powerful in this region if there isnt people outside of israel who will follow kufr??
    Last edited by Dontknowname; 18-10-17 at 01:28 PM.

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Kamel View Post


    You should NOT compare Sunnis and Shia to Protestants and Catholics. There is no REAL analogy.
    true but the fighting it self does exist and leads to many adopting nationalistic secular ways

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    Re: Will the Sunni-Shia Conflict have similar results to the Thirty Years' War

    Quote Originally Posted by Amazigh View Post
    Okay your point is clear. But my next question, how do you apply Sharia in the 21th century without using reason and logic? And what is your opinion of past scholars who had great intellect when it came to Islamic thought, philosophy, biology and science in general? They applied logic and reasoning all the time.
    Theres a difference between NEVER using your brain, and using ur own intellect to supersede what is already known of islam, e.g. in battle commanders and soldiers use their intellect to best fight within the frame of the shariah, there is no obligatory military tactic that islam says you MUST USE rather there's wiggle room. Thats because there are maters in islam where there is room and matters where there is little or NO room, so your assumption that we are saying 'you cannot use ur brain' is wrong so i dont know why you brought up stuff like biology and science.

 

 

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