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  1. #1
    New Member yuri.g's Avatar
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    How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Whether we say the Universe has always existed, or God has always existed, we have the same problem: something has had to exist for all “time” (or had the potential to come into existence).

    The believer says it is God who has always existed, while the materialist/atheist says that it is the stuff that makes up our Universe, but which explanation is most reasonable?

    God vs. the Universe

    This is a very difficult question, because there’s still much we don’t know. While there are still gaps in our knowledge, there are a number of factors that might lead us to conclude that it is the Universe (in some form) that is more likely to have always “just existed.”

    1. The Universe exists.

    This should probably go without saying, but we can directly observe our Universe, we cannot directly observe God. This certainly doesn’t disprove God, but it is a good place to start.

    We can pick up a rock and say, “Hey, look! I found a part of the Universe!” We cannot go into a church or mosque and say, “Hey, look! I found God!” (Well, we can… but you know what I mean.)

    If we have to identify something that has always existed, it seems more reasonable to begin with something that has been shown to exist, than something we cannot confirm.

    2. The Universe is far less complex than God.

    If something were to “just exist” without cause, a simple thing seems more likely than something with a high degree of complexity.

    A God would require an incredible amount of complexity, considering its need to store, retrieve, comprehend, and create. This God would have to know how to bring matter into existence, and intentionally shape that matter into living things. It would need either need to be self-taught, or somehow “just know” all things without ever being educated.

    By comparison, energy and particles are pretty dumb. They don’t begin with a high degree of complexity, and must rely on natural laws, chance probabilities, and selection to begin to form any sort of true complexity.

    3. The Universe is often wasteful and disorderly.

    There is much waste and disorder in the Universe. Why would God carefully design hundreds of billions of galaxies if he only needed one? (We didn’t even know until recently that these other galaxies existed!) Why design entire galaxies, and then crash them into one another? Why make space so deadly for humans? Or place objects so far away that there is no hope of our ever reaching them? Why pelt random moons and planets with space-debris? Is there a reason for this kind of design? Is it intelligent? Or is it random? Nature’s behavior is wasteful, unguided, indifferent, and lacks the thoughtfulness one would expect from an intelligent designer.

    4. The Universe would not have to create something from nothing.

    If something must always exist, there is one less variable in saying the Universe has always existed (in some shape or form) than saying it was created from nothing.

    Sure, we could add a God to the equation, but then we also have to go about proving that non-material life can exist, and can think, and have knowledge, and create matter from nothing. Why not just say that the what exists is what exists?

    The theist and materialist has to accept:

    Supernatural spiritual beings can exist.
    Spiritual beings can exist eternally without cause.
    Spiritual beings can create new matter and energy from nothing.
    Spiritual beings can exist outside of space and time.
    Spiritual beings can store, retrieve, and creatively process information.
    Spiritual beings are constantly learning, or are able to somehow have knowledge without ever being educated.
    Spiritual beings have needs or emotions that lead them to create things.
    Matter and/or energy has always existed (in some form or another), and occasionally give rise to more complex things.

    Conclusion

    Because our knowledge is limited, we can only speculate about whether it is God or the Universe that has always existed. Both ideas seem unusual, but in order for us to exist, one must be true.

    I can hold a rock in one hand, and while I may not know where it came from, it’s difficult to imagine a time when each of its atoms simply did not exist. If I followed all of its atoms back in time, would I ever reach a time when all of its particles simply didn’t exist? In any form?

    In the other hand, I can imagine I’m holding God. I don’t know if he’s really there, and he looks suspiciously like nothing. It’s difficult to imagine that he is there, and that he has always existed, and that he even created the rock in my other hand… out of sheer will.

    What I do know is that the rock exists now. Its very existence testifies to the fact that it can exist, it does exist, and it’s possible that it has always existed. The number of variables that must be true in order for the rock to “just exist” are certainly no more than the number required for a god to “just exist.” There will always be far more variables required for an invisible, intelligent, eternal God to create something, than for that thing to have just always existed, in some form, on its own.

  2. #41
    Member Temasek's Avatar
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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Sorry for double posts..deleted.

  3. #42
    Odan Thunderstorm's Avatar
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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Temasek View Post
    I'm here not to show smart, clever, intelligent or wise, etc. I just want to share what I know and understand. This is based on my personal understanding of the spiritual learning of Islamic teachings.

    Without our existence, God does not exist at all.

    If Allah does not create us, no one knows His existence.
    Angels, jinn, animals do. Even without them, He knows of Himself.

    No one can worship Him except the Angels.
    You answered yourself right here:
    In Quran (51:56), "And I did not create the jinn and mankind except to worship Me."
    So angels, jinn, we can worship Him. Probably even other categories.

    That is why He created us the most noble creatures, and more noble than the Angels and everything else. To know that He exists and to worship Him alone.
    We're not "noble" by default.

    [98:7] Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures.
    In order to know that He existed, Allah created the whole universe including Heaven, Earth, Moon, Sun, Tree, Animals, and others before Adam was created and for his descendants as the inhabitants of the Earth.

    So I believe that we (human beings) are the source of what is called "something" the cause of all the existence of the universe.

    How does Allah exists by Itself, no one knows, we are only told by Allah that He exists.
    There's a difference between someone knowing that something exists and something existing.
    Things do not need to be known by anything other than Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala) in order to exist.
    This hadith qudsi, which I'm guessing is the source from whcih you're getting the notion about "creating in order to be known" from, I have not found any grading in regards to it. Hadith qudsi are not sahih by default, and if this one is, then it needs a context to make sense.

    Do you believe that there was a point in time at which there was no creature, but only dead, unconscious space and Allah(azza wa jall)?
    Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

  4. #43
    Odan Thunderstorm's Avatar
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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Temasek View Post
    It is Allah's nature split into two for the creation universe. From these two features, clashes, the creation of the universe takes place. This clash is unlike scientists' expectations of explosions such as nuclear bombs. The explosion was soundless. The result of this explosion is that it creates water, dust, heat and wind. After it created water, dust, heat and wind in the universe, then Allah commanded them to make the Sun, Moon, Earth, Star etc, etc
    Proof?


    Al-Anbya 21:30, Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

    Adh-Dhariyat 51:47, "With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.

    Fussilat 41:11-12, "Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience." So He completed them as seven firmaments in two Days, and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command. And We adorned the lower heaven with lights, and (provided it) with guard. Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge.

    At-Talaq 65:12, "Allah is He Who created seven Firmaments and of the earth a similar number. Through the midst of them (all) descends His Command: that ye may know that Allah has power over all things, and that Allah comprehends, all things in (His) Knowledge.
    None of this implies what you've claimed.
    So how did you come to the conclusions?
    Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

  5. #44
    Gender: Male oshirowanen's Avatar
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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by yuri.g View Post
    Nature’s behavior is wasteful, unguided, indifferent, and lacks the thoughtfulness one would expect from an intelligent designer.
    One of the greatest human minds (Einstein) once said "the more I study science, the more I believe in God".

  6. #45
    Member Temasek's Avatar
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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstorm View Post
    Angels, jinn, animals do. Even without them, He knows of Himself.
    Of course, apart from Him, who else knows that He exists?

    So angels, jinn, we can worship Him. Probably even other categories.
    Before Adam was created Jinn and Angels had already existed. We also know that Angels are the most devout creatures to Allah, never opposing the command of Allah. But Allah still wants to create Adam (man), being the vicegerent (Caliph) of the earth, not the Angels.

    Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not." Al-Baqarah 2:30.

    We're not "noble" by default.
    I believe we are very noble creatures and the best out of bests, beside Allah. That is why Allah commanded the angels to prostrate to Adam, except Iblis.

    And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers. Al-Baqarah 2:34.

    It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who prostrate. Al-A'raf 7:11

    We have honoured the sons of Adam; provided them with transport on land and sea; given them for sustenance things good and pure; and conferred on them special favours, above a great part of our creation. Al-Isra 17:70


    There's a difference between someone knowing that something exists and something existing.
    Things do not need to be known by anything other than Allah(subhanahu wa ta'aala) in order to exist.
    In the Qur'an there is a mention: Whoever believes in the unseen,

    Believes in the unseen is the Six Pillars of Faith. Allah Almighty, the Creator who created the whole universe which can not be seen by the naked eye, but can perceive His nature and form or manifestation.

    This hadith qudsi, which I'm guessing is the source from whcih you're getting the notion about "creating in order to be known" from, I have not found any grading in regards to it. Hadith qudsi are not sahih by default, and if this one is, then it needs a context to make sense.
    I learned "Whoever knows himself knows his God," to deeper the teachings of Islam.

    Do you believe that there was a point in time at which there was no creature, but only dead, unconscious space and Allah(azza wa jall)?
    No, as far as I know, dead has not existed, except for a life that already exists, which can not be dead, even at the point in times when no creature exists. This universe is part of a life that exists, everything in the universe is all alive, nothing is dead. If the universe is dead, everything does not move.. the Sun will not glow if dead, Earth will not rotate if dead, Water will not get wet if dead, Wind will not move or blowing if dead, Earth/Land will not produce its output if dead and so forth.

  7. #46
    Odan Thunderstorm's Avatar
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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Temasek View Post
    Of course, apart from Him, who else knows that He exists?
    Quote Originally Posted by Temasek View Post
    If Allah does not create us, no one knows His existence.
    Pick one lol.

    Before Adam was created Jinn and Angels had already existed. We also know that Angels are the most devout creatures to Allah, never opposing the command of Allah. But Allah still wants to create Adam (man), being the vicegerent (Caliph) of the earth, not the Angels.

    Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I will create a vicegerent on earth." They said: "Wilt Thou place therein one who will make mischief therein and shed blood?- whilst we do celebrate Thy praises and glorify Thy holy (name)?" He said: "I know what ye know not." Al-Baqarah 2:30.

    I believe we are very noble creatures and the best out of bests, beside Allah. That is why Allah commanded the angels to prostrate to Adam, except Iblis.

    And when We said to the angels, "Prostrate before Adam"; so they prostrated, except for Iblees. He refused and was arrogant and became of the disbelievers. Al-Baqarah 2:34.

    It is We Who created you and gave you shape; then We bade the angels prostrate to Adam, and they prostrate; not so Iblis; He refused to be of those who prostrate. Al-A'raf 7:11

    We have honoured the sons of Adam; provided them with transport on land and sea; given them for sustenance things good and pure; and conferred on them special favours, above a great part of our creation. Al-Isra 17:70
    Noble and special are not the same thing. Or maybe you're thinking that "honored" and "honorable" is the same thing - they aren't either. To be honorable and noble in that sense you have to be righteous.
    Murderers are human, and are not noble nor honorable in the sense that you're using it in. And they are not better than other creatures just for being human,

    [7:179] Already have We urged unto hell many of the jinn and humankind, having hearts wherewith they understand not, and having eyes wherewith they see not, and having ears wherewith they hear not. These are as the cattle - nay, but they are worse! These are the neglectful.
    But anyone can be honored regardless of whether they're good or evil, even if they are not noble. Like Nimrûd, he was not good nor deserving of what he received, but if receiving regency over something/someone makes one noble, well then Nimrûd was noble, which doesn't make sense.

    In the Qur'an there is a mention: Whoever believes in the unseen,

    Believes in the unseen is the Six Pillars of Faith. Allah Almighty, the Creator who created the whole universe which can not be seen by the naked eye, but can perceive His nature and form or manifestation.
    What is the sixth pillar? I only know of five. There is a sixth one that the shiia believe in. And a seventh that ismailis believe in.

    I learned "Whoever knows himself knows his God," to deeper the teachings of Islam.
    And how does that have a relation to God creating something in order to be known by something other than Himself?

    No, as far as I know, dead has not existed, except for a life that already exists, which can not be dead, even at the point in times when no creature exists. This universe is part of a life that exists, everything in the universe is all alive, nothing is dead. If the universe is dead, everything does not move.. the Sun will not glow if dead, Earth will not rotate if dead, Water will not get wet if dead, Wind will not move or blowing if dead, Earth/Land will not produce its output if dead and so forth.
    How would you know this? How do you know if something is alive?
    Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

  8. #47
    Member Temasek's Avatar
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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstorm View Post
    Proof?

    None of this implies what you've claimed.
    So how did you come to the conclusions?
    The whole universe is created from Noor Allah.

    Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The Parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His Light: Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things. (An-Nur 24:35)

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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by yuri.g View Post
    How could God or the Universe just always exist? Whether we say the Universe has always existed, or God has always existed, we have the same problem: something has had to exist for all “time” (or had the potential to come into existence). The believer says it is God who has always existed, while the materialist/atheist says that it is the stuff that makes up our Universe, but which explanation is most reasonable?
    You may have to take one thing into account. Time itself is a product of the expansion of the universe. We know of at least 4 dimensions that expanded out of the initial singularity: 3 for space and 1 for time, i.e. timespace.

    It is obvious that a First Cause, in religion, Allah, would somehow pre-exist the universe, but in the absence of time, the terms "before" and "after" are not defined. The term "why?" refers to causality, which seeks to establish the causal events that precede consequential events. As you can see, the term "to precede" makes use of the concept of ordered time already. In that sense, causality is just a byproduct of the universe itself and falls apart in its absence. Without causality, we cannot even think properly, because the term "why?" then simply becomes meaningless.

    Even though physics happily makes use of timespace by claiming that gravity is a byproduct of the action of matter-energy deforming timespace around it, there are other historical views too. Immanuel Kant in his Critique of Pure Reason ("Kritik der reinen Vernunft") famously called timespace just figments of the mind. Even though contemporary physics successfully makes use of the idea that timespace exists, that does not mean that there are no theoretical models possibly in which this virtual concept could just be abstracted away.

    The Tablet of Wisdom (Lawh Mahfuz) is defined as a perfect mirror of the universe based on a finite number of principles. If there is an entity holding it his hands -- we believe that Allah is All-Knowing and therefore possesses this tablet -- giving us that tablet, by throwing it inside the universe would be fraught with problems. For example, the tablet would start mirroring itself too, and may therefore get thrown in an endless loop. Furthermore, the presence of timespace would restrict its operations, just like it restricts ours. Formal knowledge within the universe can be at best Turing complete, and that is absolutely not enough to explain the universe itself, let alone its Creator.

  10. #49
    Odan Thunderstorm's Avatar
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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Temasek View Post
    The whole universe is created from Noor Allah.
    Proof?
    So you're a pantheist basically? You believe that everything is Allah(azza wa jall) because everything is somehow created from light?
    And so you are a sufi shiite from what I gather?

    Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The Parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass: the glass as it were a brilliant star: Lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the east nor of the west, whose oil is well-nigh luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His Light: Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things. (An-Nur 24:35)
    Uh-huh..?
    And where is this part?:
    Quote Originally Posted by Temasek View Post
    It is Allah's nature split into two for the creation universe. From these two features, clashes, the creation of the universe takes place. [...]
    Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

  11. #50
    Odan Thunderstorm's Avatar
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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by yuri.g View Post
    How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Whether we say the Universe has always existed, or God has always existed, we have the same problem: something has had to exist for all “time” (or had the potential to come into existence).

    The believer says it is God who has always existed, while the materialist/atheist says that it is the stuff that makes up our Universe, but which explanation is most reasonable?

    God vs. the Universe

    This is a very difficult question, because there’s still much we don’t know. While there are still gaps in our knowledge, there are a number of factors that might lead us to conclude that it is the Universe (in some form) that is more likely to have always “just existed.”

    1. The Universe exists.

    This should probably go without saying, but we can directly observe our Universe, we cannot directly observe God. This certainly doesn’t disprove God, but it is a good place to start.

    We can pick up a rock and say, “Hey, look! I found a part of the Universe!” We cannot go into a church or mosque and say, “Hey, look! I found God!” (Well, we can… but you know what I mean.)
    That's a category error. Like; I can pick up a rock, but I can't pick up a sound - is this a valid argument?

    If we have to identify something that has always existed, it seems more reasonable to begin with something that has been shown to exist, than something we cannot confirm.
    We can confirm it.
    Premise: All life we've ever observed was caused by life previous to it
    Premise: No life form has ever been found to survive extreme temperatures(1 billion degrees during the Big Bang)
    Premise: A closed system tends to high entropy
    Premise: Earth is a closed system according to scientists

    Therefore;
    1. There can't have been a time during which life did not exist
    2. There had to be life able to withstand such extreme temperatures and natural forces in order to produce new life
    3. Evolution is impossible without guidance by an intelligent agent
    4. The living thing which ushered new life into the universe must have been able to manipulate the universe
    5. It must be something supernatural, not confirming to the laws of nature, in order to survive

    Beyond this, it only makes sense that if this thing was able to survive the hostile conditions of the universe for so long until the earth was habitable in order to place new life down onto it, this thing is extremely old and does not need any kind of food, water, matter nor energy. We use our human words to call it a Creator, eternal, almighty(i.e. having all the power in existence) and so on.

    We concluded that dark matter exists on shakier grounds than this, but that is taken as a given by many atheists and named "scientifically proven".


    2. The Universe is far less complex than God.

    If something were to “just exist” without cause, a simple thing seems more likely than something with a high degree of complexity.
    No, simpler explanations are not necessitated in any regard.
    Example: If we're in a cave looking for traces of ancient people, and you find a few letters on the wall, and say "I found evidence of ancient people", then I say "No you didn't, you just found a few scratches, the humans making it would be more complex than the letters, therefore it is more plausible that a natural phenomenon made them.".
    Secondly, it doesn't make sense that something as complex as we are, occurred by something less complex. Because we're unable to replicate ourselves mechanically(i.e. we can't figure our blueprints out properly ourselves), while we find it absurd to believe that a simple chair would be created overtime by natural forces for millions of years. But atheists are telling us that we, who are more complex than the chair, were created like that, by an unconscious, chaotic void they say, which is dumber than we are, yet outsmarted us in every regard. Because if I tell you that if you cause a billion explosions over a billion years in a metal dump, that it will have created an airplane, you would not believe me.


    A God would require an incredible amount of complexity, considering its need to store, retrieve, comprehend, and create. This God would have to know how to bring matter into existence, and intentionally shape that matter into living things. It would need either need to be self-taught, or somehow “just know” all things without ever being educated.

    By comparison, energy and particles are pretty dumb. They don’t begin with a high degree of complexity, and must rely on natural laws, chance probabilities, and selection to begin to form any sort of true complexity.
    You can't absolve an inanimate thing of complexity simply by saying that its particles aren't complex or that they are inanimate. Because a smart phone is more complex than a clock, but they're both inanimate, and their particles are equally complex in the sense that you use them in. The laws of physics are way more complex than either of the two. And stupidity does not make something less complex. Because some people are dumber than others, but we're equally complex.
    And how can anyone believe that so many correct turns were sequentially made, all by sheer coincidence, so as to create us?


    3. The Universe is often wasteful and disorderly.

    There is much waste and disorder in the Universe. Why would God carefully design hundreds of billions of galaxies if he only needed one? (We didn’t even know until recently that these other galaxies existed!) Why design entire galaxies, and then crash them into one another? Why make space so deadly for humans? Or place objects so far away that there is no hope of our ever reaching them? Why pelt random moons and planets with space-debris? Is there a reason for this kind of design? Is it intelligent? Or is it random? Nature’s behavior is wasteful, unguided, indifferent, and lacks the thoughtfulness one would expect from an intelligent designer.
    How do you know it's wasteful?
    And disorder does not prove that there is no design behind it. That's precisely what abstract art proves.
    Nor does the Creator need a reason to create or do something - He can make something pointless and meaningless if He wants to. But if we don't know the reason for something, it doesn't mean there is none.
    And as I pointed out earlier; you need to negate evolution for instance if you believe that nature is unguided. It is absurd to believe that something unguided, indifferent, unthoughtful made something as complex as ourselves.
    Fourthly, random generation does not imply that there is nobody who made it happen - we do this every day with the use of our computers, people actually made generators of various things which randomly give results.
    Random generation, therefore, can be accounted by an almighty, cognizant, eternal Creator, and so can the guided process of creating us. While unguided, random generation can't account for our creation.


    4. The Universe would not have to create something from nothing.

    If something must always exist, there is one less variable in saying the Universe has always existed (in some shape or form) than saying it was created from nothing.
    Why be lazy? The truth does not conform to whatever is easiest or fastest for us to do, it can be extremely complex, and we just have to deal with that. Doesn't matter if saying that "before me, there was nothing, that way I don't have to explain so much" is easier or has "less variables", the truth will not conform to my claims.

    Sure, we could add a God to the equation, but then we also have to go about proving that non-material life can exist, and can think, and have knowledge, and create matter from nothing. Why not just say that the what exists is what exists?
    You can do that. We're inquisitive in our nature, which is why, when we stumble upon something new or perplexing, we want to know more about it.

    The theist and materialist has to accept:

    Supernatural spiritual beings can exist.
    Spiritual beings can exist eternally without cause.
    Spiritual beings can create new matter and energy from nothing.
    Spiritual beings can exist outside of space and time.
    Spiritual beings can store, retrieve, and creatively process information.
    Spiritual beings are constantly learning, or are able to somehow have knowledge without ever being educated.
    Spiritual beings have needs or emotions that lead them to create things.
    Matter and/or energy has always existed (in some form or another), and occasionally give rise to more complex things.

    You don't need to accept anything. I start from what I see and experience around me and what I can empirically and/or logically confirm, which is how I arrived at the premises way up, then I draw conclusions from what I know. And I don't bother with what I don't know or what is hinged upon uncertain premises.

    Conclusion

    Because our knowledge is limited, we can only speculate about whether it is God or the Universe that has always existed. Both ideas seem unusual, but in order for us to exist, one must be true.

    I can hold a rock in one hand, and while I may not know where it came from, it’s difficult to imagine a time when each of its atoms simply did not exist. If I followed all of its atoms back in time, would I ever reach a time when all of its particles simply didn’t exist? In any form?

    In the other hand, I can imagine I’m holding God. I don’t know if he’s really there, and he looks suspiciously like nothing. It’s difficult to imagine that he is there, and that he has always existed, and that he even created the rock in my other hand… out of sheer will.

    What I do know is that the rock exists now. Its very existence testifies to the fact that it can exist, it does exist, and it’s possible that it has always existed. The number of variables that must be true in order for the rock to “just exist” are certainly no more than the number required for a god to “just exist.” There will always be far more variables required for an invisible, intelligent, eternal God to create something, than for that thing to have just always existed, in some form, on its own.
    1. Again, it doesn't matter how many "variables" there are in any given "calculation". If you're looking for the truth, and you find that it has a billion variables - you have to go with them, you can't make up your own reality.
    2. You're not being fair in the way you pitch this "feud". On one hand, you will say that a rock is simple and use it as a gateway to try and conclude that the universe is the first mover, neglecting the many laws of physics we keep exploring and that we can't wrap our heads around entirely, but on the other hand, you take God as is, and say that we have to take His intelligence, invisibility, ability to create etc. into consideration for that "explanation". It's like saying "Well I can hold somebody's hand, but I can't hold the Big Bang, so God is more probable" - this would be strange, and they never were at odds, the universe's beginning has been proven if you trust physicists, mathematicians and astronomers.
    I have to write something down here in order for it to post apparently.
    Blabla,bladibla, blaa-blablabla.
    Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstorm View Post
    Noble and special are not the same thing. Or maybe you're thinking that "honored" and "honorable" is the same thing - they aren't either. To be honorable and noble in that sense you have to be righteous.
    Humans are the most glorious beings of Allah. No other creature is created perfectly like humans.
    Murderers are human, and are not noble nor honorable in the sense that you're using it in. And they are not better than other creatures just for being human,

    But anyone can be honored regardless of whether they're good or evil, even if they are not noble. Like Nimrûd, he was not good nor deserving of what he received, but if receiving regency over something/someone makes one noble, well then Nimrûd was noble, which doesn't make sense.
    Because human creation is so perfect with various characters, such as evil, good, sad, laughing, crying, smart, intelligent, evil heart and so on, compared to other creations of Allah even Iblis, Jin and Angels.

    I am neither Shia nor Sufi.

    Sighhh... you cannot distinguish the 5 Pillars of Islam and the 6 Pillars of Faith..

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstorm View Post
    Proof?
    So you're a pantheist basically? You believe that everything is Allah(azza wa jall) because everything is somehow created from light?
    And so you are a sufi shiite from what I gather?
    I am neither Sufi nor Shia. I also learned the teachings of Sultan ul-Awliya-wa-Sufiya Shaykh AbdulQadir Jailani (ra).
    Last edited by Temasek; 08-07-17 at 04:44 PM.

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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstorm View Post

    How would you know this? How do you know if something is alive?
    Scientists see the four elements of the Fire, the Water, the Wind and Soil (Dust) are dead things, for Allah is the living thing.

    The four elements considered by scientists as dead things, have become the use of every human creation to make use of themselves. For example, the car. Car manufacturing requires four elements (Air, Soil, Water and Fire) as well.

    Car bodies and others made from Soil, requiring Wind, Water and Fire for car engines to function. And the fifth is a car driver (human) for the whole car to be alive and moving.

    That's why I believe that humans are the most noble and glorious beings of Allah compared to other created creatures. Things that are considered dead can be "alive" when we use them perfectly. In the Qur'an, Allah clearly states that there is nothing and His creation in vain. Allah is Praiseworthy and Most Glorious.

    Just like Adam's creation. Adam comprises 4 elements and the fifth Allah blew his spirit or breath of life into Adam's nostrils. We humans need Air to breathe, Water for thirst, Heat (our body sweat because of warmth), the body is made of Dust/Soil/Clay. The last of Allah's Spirit to keep us alive..

    "Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay: When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him." Surah Sad 38: 71-72,

    In Genesis 2:7, "then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.'
    Last edited by Temasek; 09-07-17 at 06:57 AM.

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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstorm View Post
    "The whole universe is created from Noor Allah." Proof?
    Proof must always have a context, i.e. the axioms that you accept. From there, you can either derive the statement or not. If you can, the statement is provable from the axioms. If not, it is unprovable from the axioms.

    If we define the Theory of Everything (ToE) as a theory that is a perfect mirror of the universe, the existence Allah would still not be provable from the ToE. The ToE would start mirroring the universe too late, only after its beginning. It would have to be able to tell us what happened before its beginning, but the term "before" is not even defined before the beginning of times. Hence, whatever the ToE says about that, we wouldn't even understand it. With the ToE being insufficient to explain the action of Allah, what other context would be better and such that we would still be able to understand it? There simply isn't any.

    If you accept the Quran as axiomatic base, however, then the existence of Allah is trivially provable from the Quran. In that sense, Islam amounts to accepting the Quran as the core statements of the full Islamic axiomatization that can be derived from it.

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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Temasek View Post
    Humans are the most glorious beings of Allah. No other creature is created perfectly like humans.
    I've never read this anywhere. Where did you get this from?

    Because human creation is so perfect with various characters, such as evil, good, sad, laughing, crying, smart, intelligent, evil heart and so on, compared to other creations of Allah even Iblis, Jin and Angels.
    What do you mean? Perfect in what?
    How would we be perfect but other things are not?

    Sighhh... you cannot distinguish the 5 Pillars of Islam and the 6 Pillars of Faith..
    My bad, I should've known better. Because I do know the six pillars of faith, but I confused the two.

    I am neither Sufi nor Shia. I also learned the teachings of Sultan ul-Awliya-wa-Sufiya Shaykh AbdulQadir Jailani (ra).
    Ok, well then where do you get your ideas from? You make them up yourself? Because I don't find any of what you say in the Qur'an nor ahadith nor tafsir.

    Quote Originally Posted by Temasek View Post
    Scientists see the four elements of the Fire, the Water, the Wind and Soil (Dust) are dead things, for Allah is the living thing.

    The four elements considered by scientists as dead things, have become the use of every human creation to make use of themselves. For example, the car. Car manufacturing requires four elements (Air, Soil, Water and Fire) as well.

    Car bodies and others made from Soil, requiring Wind, Water and Fire for car engines to function. And the fifth is a car driver (human) for the whole car to be alive and moving.

    That's why I believe that humans are the most noble and glorious beings of Allah compared to other created creatures. Things that are considered dead can be "alive" when we use them perfectly. In the Qur'an, Allah clearly states that there is nothing and His creation in vain. Allah is Praiseworthy and Most Glorious.

    Just like Adam's creation. Adam comprises 4 elements and the fifth Allah blew his spirit or breath of life into Adam's nostrils. We humans need Air to breathe, Water for thirst, Heat (our body sweat because of warmth), the body is made of Dust/Soil/Clay. The last of Allah's Spirit to keep us alive..

    "Behold, thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man from clay: When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him." Surah Sad 38: 71-72,

    In Genesis 2:7, "then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.'
    How do you know if something is alive?

    That's why I believe that humans are the most noble and glorious beings of Allah compared to other created creatures. Things that are considered dead can be "alive" when we use them perfectly. In the Qur'an, Allah clearly states that there is nothing and His creation in vain. Allah is Praiseworthy and Most Glorious.
    If us making something move means that it makes us glorious, well then animals can also make things move, how does that not make them perfect and glorious and noble?
    Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by pronorah View Post
    Proof must always have a context, i.e. the axioms that you accept. From there, you can either derive the statement or not. If you can, the statement is provable from the axioms. If not, it is unprovable from the axioms.
    No, because he then provides proof from his axioms, and I can tell if they are mine at that point.
    He implies that he's a muslim of some sort - there are certain "givens" there then.
    And I'm implying the question "What are you?" in various ways for this purpose, or better yet; "Where did you get X from?", because then I can decide if I agree or disagree based on all of my axioms.
    So we don't get into philosophical rigamaroles, we get to the point instead.

    If we define the Theory of Everything (ToE) as a theory that is a perfect mirror of the universe, the existence Allah would still not be provable from the ToE. The ToE would start mirroring the universe too late, only after its beginning. It would have to be able to tell us what happened before its beginning, but the term "before" is not even defined before the beginning of times. Hence, whatever the ToE says about that, we wouldn't even understand it. With the ToE being insufficient to explain the action of Allah, what other context would be better and such that we would still be able to understand it? There simply isn't any.
    1. Nobody argued ToE.
    2. You're begging the question when you force the definition "everything" = "universe" and then say that the existence of Allah(azza wa jall)(i.e., something beyond the universe) is not provable. The term "everything" encompasses things beyond the universe as well.
    3. "start mirroring the universe too late" - meaning?
    4. "but the term "before" is not even defined before the beginning of times" lol, what the heck. It doesn't need to be. The scope of a definition is not subject to constraints of history.

    If you accept the Quran as axiomatic base, however, then the existence of Allah is trivially provable from the Quran. In that sense, Islam amounts to accepting the Quran as the core statements of the full Islamic axiomatization that can be derived from it.
    I'll say it again; claiming to be muslim comes with enough givens that this isn't an issue. Any muslim worth their salt will accept a sufficient base that discussion is possible without "But now are we talking about it from the perspective of Fifty Shades of Grey?" or something - we just get to it, this isn't even a question.
    Last edited by Thunderstorm; 09-07-17 at 07:38 PM.
    Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstorm View Post
    No, because he then provides proof from his axioms, and I can tell if they are mine at that point.
    He implies that he's a muslim of some sort - there are certain "givens" there then.
    And I'm implying the question "What are you?" in various ways for this purpose, or better yet; "Where did you get X from?", because then I can decide if I agree or disagree based on all of my axioms.
    So we don't get into philosophical rigamaroles, we get to the point instead.

    1. Nobody argued ToE.
    2. You're begging the question when you force the definition "everything" = "universe" and then say that the existence of Allah(azza wa jall)(i.e., something beyond the universe) is not provable. The term "everything" encompasses things beyond the universe as well.
    3. "start mirroring the universe too late" - meaning?
    4. "but the term "before" is not even defined before the beginning of times" lol, what the heck. It doesn't need to be. The scope of a definition is not subject to constraints of history.

    I'll say it again; claiming to be muslim comes with enough givens that this isn't an issue. Any muslim worth their salt will accept a sufficient base that discussion is possible without "But now are we talking about it from the perspective of Fifty Shades of Grey?" or something - we just get to it, this isn't even a question.
    Proof theory is a branch of meta-mathematics -- which is still mathematics -- which defines the term proof pretty much as following:

    In mathematics, a proof is an inferential argument for a mathematical statement. In the argument, other previously established statements, such as theorems, can be used. In principle, a proof can be traced back to self-evident or assumed statements, known as axioms, along with accepted rules of inference. Axioms may be treated as conditions that must be met before the statement applies.

    Hence, absolute provability is not possible. A statement is always provable from ... axioms.

    The ToE is just an abstract tool to demonstrate that particular statements would not even be provable from the ToE. The First Cause, for example, is not provable from the ToE. We don't need a copy of the ToE to know that. The ToE could only explain the universe from the beginning, and not before the beginning.

    At the same time, physics is not provable from anything. It is only testable/falsifiable. In order to prove anything from the real world, as in physics, we would need the ToE first. We do not have access to it, and there are good reasons to believe that the ToE cannot operate within the universe, but only outside of it.

    In order to be Muslim, you indeed first need to accept the Quran as the core axioms of Islam. It is simple why it must be like that: You cannot use any axiomatization at all without axiomatic base. That is just not possible. Proof theory does not allow for that. If you do that anyway, your system is no longer axiomatic, and it will not be possible to derive any statement from it at all; not even the opposite of the axioms.

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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Is it possible for a human mind to conceive that a thing has no cause, by pushing the envelope a little further, we can logically ask where God comes from?

    1) God has always been, he is uncreated, he has no cause.

    2) God is the primary cause of everything, he is "the Alpha and the Omega". So we can logically assert that God is the cause of himself. In fact, God derives his origin from himself. God has thus fashioned himself, he is his own God.

    3) The truth lies elsewhere and goes beyond our understanding and it does not matter, it's enough to have faith and to leave to the divine its share of mystery.

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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
    Is it possible for a human mind to conceive that a thing has no cause, by pushing the envelope a little further, we can logically ask where God comes from?
    The problem here is causality, which revolves around the question Why?. Causality means that we assume the existence of causes that took place strictly before their consequences did, and without which the consequences would not have taken place. The term strictly before is what causes trouble. Before the start of the expansion of the fabric of timespace there was no time and therefore no before. Hence, causality cannot exist without time. This renders all questions concerning before the beginning of times totally incomprehensible to us. We cannot reason about that situation, because reason itself falls apart in those circumstances.

    Quote Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
    1) God has always been, he is uncreated, he has no cause.
    Yes. By definition, it is God who created the universe. Hence, he was there before time itself existed. Hence, God cannot possibly be subject to time. The Creator cannot be part of the creation either, because that would be a circular situation. Assuming this, would be impredicative. He cannot have a cause, because causality did not exist when he created the universe. Causality is merely a byproduct of the existence of the universe, i.e. of the expansion of timespace.

    Quote Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
    2) God is the primary cause of everything, he is "the Alpha and the Omega".
    Yes, if the universe started expanding from a singularity, of size zero, there would be no way to distinguish different causes inside that singularity. According to Leibniz law of the identity of the indiscernibles, if several entities cannot possible differ in any of their characteristics, then it is one and the same entity. It is therefore the shape of the singularity that requires us to assume only one single First Cause as the startingn point and principle of causality for all future causes and consequences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
    So we can logically assert that God is the cause of himself. In fact, God derives his origin from himself. God has thus fashioned himself, he is his own God.
    What Aristotle meant by saying that the first mover must be moved by himself, is rather the result of looking at how a process behaves in its extremities. If the causality function recursively maps consequences onto their causes, then the function has no other option than to map the First Cause onto itself. It does not say anything more about the origin or cause of God, because that is not visible from within the universe, and certainly not by recursively mapping the causality function on its results. The causality function simply does not allow you to leave the universe to a point before its beginning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Epsilon View Post
    3) The truth lies elsewhere and goes beyond our understanding and it does not matter, it's enough to have faith and to leave to the divine its share of mystery.
    Yes, with causality, i.e. the question Why? being just a byproduct of the expansion of the universal fabric of timespace, we cannot possibly understand what lies outside the universe. That is indeed totally incomprehensible from within the universe.
    Last edited by pronorah; 16-07-17 at 07:03 AM.

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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by pronorah View Post
    Proof theory is a branch of meta-mathematics -- which is still mathematics -- which defines the term proof pretty much as following:

    In mathematics, a proof is an inferential argument for a mathematical statement. In the argument, other previously established statements, such as theorems, can be used. In principle, a proof can be traced back to self-evident or assumed statements, known as axioms, along with accepted rules of inference. Axioms may be treated as conditions that must be met before the statement applies.

    Hence, absolute provability is not possible. A statement is always provable from ... axioms.
    Firstly, why would it be impossible? Secondly, you can say that for anything. Like the statement "Hence, absolute provability is not possible." itself.
    If it's hinged upon you accepting it as absolutely true in order to use it, why not do that again through the same process? If not, then why use at all?
    And if we can't use that same verification for other statements, then the verification is useless for that one to begin with.

    The ToE is just an abstract tool to demonstrate that particular statements would not even be provable from the ToE. The First Cause, for example, is not provable from the ToE. We don't need a copy of the ToE to know that. The ToE could only explain the universe from the beginning, and not before the beginning.
    I don't need it to be even if there wasn't a question then about the rules of inference and definitions of "The First Cause" and "ToE". Because everybody accepts certain basic principles, whether they say it out loud or not. Because you'll never find someone in practice who will doubt that you are right if you say that a car crashing into a lemonade stand destroys the stand, even if destruction, and even car and lemonade stand(in modal logic at least) are relative terms. Otherwise we can't function. Then what does it matter if a statement is absolutely proven to someone, if the person already accepts it as true or even absolutely true? And we prove statements for someone to observe, otherwise what's the point? What's the point of proving that the Battle of Hastings happened to a rock?
    You only need so much "calculation" in your life, past a certain point it's irrelevant. Because what is the difference in the behaviour of a man who goes to the bank convinced that they're not thieves in disguise and gives them his money for safe keeping, and that of a man who knows it's absolutely proven? If the first worries, then he's not convinced, then he doubts.

    At the same time, physics is not provable from anything. It is only testable/falsifiable. In order to prove anything from the real world, as in physics, we would need the ToE first. We do not have access to it, and there are good reasons to believe that the ToE cannot operate within the universe, but only outside of it.

    In order to be Muslim, you indeed first need to accept the Quran as the core axioms of Islam. It is simple why it must be like that: You cannot use any axiomatization at all without axiomatic base. That is just not possible. Proof theory does not allow for that. If you do that anyway, your system is no longer axiomatic, and it will not be possible to derive any statement from it at all; not even the opposite of the axioms.
    I still don't understand what the big deal is about the ToE, I don't need a ToE to make an omelette in the morning. I can do without it - and it works. Sorry for the oversimplification, but I'm trying to put the point across clearer.
    I'm simply putting the law of noncontradiction to good use and my immediate surroundings and experience to make observations and conclusions about reality at large.
    Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

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    Re: How could God or the Universe just always exist?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thunderstorm View Post
    Like the statement "Hence, absolute provability is not possible." itself. If it's hinged upon you accepting it as absolutely true in order to use it, why not do that again through the same process?
    It is obvious that the foundations of mathematics are necessarily impredicative (circular). This problem is called the foundational crisis in mathematics. It arose at the beginning of the 20th century and was never solved since. Every Turing-complete axiomatization in mathematics is circular in its foundational axioms, and it is also incomplete. This is what happened:

    In mathematics, Hilbert's program, formulated by German mathematician David Hilbert in the early part of the 20th century, was a proposed solution to the foundational crisis of mathematics, when early attempts to clarify the foundations of mathematics were found to suffer from paradoxes and inconsistencies. As a solution, Hilbert proposed to ground all existing theories to a finite, complete set of axioms, and provide a proof that these axioms were consistent. Hilbert proposed that the consistency of more complicated systems, such as real analysis, could be proven in terms of simpler systems. Ultimately, the consistency of all of mathematics could be reduced to basic arithmetic.

    Gödel's incompleteness theorems, published in 1931, showed that Hilbert's program was unattainable for key areas of mathematics. In his first theorem, Gödel showed that any consistent system with a computable set of axioms which is capable of expressing arithmetic can never be complete: it is possible to construct a statement that can be shown to be true, but that cannot be derived from the formal rules of the system. In his second theorem, he showed that such a system could not prove its own consistency, so it certainly cannot be used to prove the consistency of anything stronger with certainty. This refuted Hilbert's assumption that a finitistic system could be used to prove the consistency of itself, and therefore anything else.

 

 

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