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  1. #1
    Odan muzzybee's Avatar
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    Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gingerbeardman View Post
    many reverts bring baggage, our own jahiliyyah into the deen. We need culturing just the same as everyone else, if not more so.

    As well as this, many reverts are drawn to the super-salafis and more exotic sufi groups which can behave in a very cult like manner, where transgressions are covered up for the benefit of the wider group.
    This statement realy got me thinking.Specially being drawn to extremes in deen.

    @Gingerbeardman you are a revert and very active in dawah.
    How does one handle this situation.

    For example is a forum good idea for a revert
    Where do they go to learn the deen.
    What can born muslims learn from reverts and vice versa.
    What are the risks for reverts.
    How to approach reverts for marriage.

    Would be an interesting discussion.

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  2. #121
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by myeverything View Post
    @AbuSammy I'm sorry if something in my post hits something in your real life. You take it as personal. While I was talking in general ...

    Just to make things clear , there are some men their hobby is to marry then remarry then divorce etc. If u got what I mean. I said in my first post that each individual is a different case. And I have nothing against polygamy or divorced people.

    By being real I don't mean what u mentioned at all. Being real here means it's a known fact that women wouldn't be happy with polygamy and even prophet peace be upon him wouldn't want it to his daughter. This fact doesn't clash with it being halal though. I know lots of religious men some of them into polygamous marriage but when a polgamous men ask their daughters for marriage they hesitate and mostly refused. They don't wish it to their own daughters. Islam fits all times . We just need to understand it well and not try to be idealistic or perfect because this doesn't work even in prophet's time. We are humans and we do our best not to go against Allah's boundaries. But still we have choice how to run our lives and we can express our feelings. Islam is about understanding and mercy as well and not about rights and duties only.

    Don't know if my post makes any sense though


    Good night
    Yes I understand, I don't support this type of marriage and having children. Personally even if I dislike polygamy if a man with whose character and religion I am satisified asks to marry my daughter then from my perspective she should marry him even if I dislike it. And if people would adhere to this their would be a lot less fitna. This includes Muslim women who turn down marriage proposals from otherwise worthy men because they don't want to be in polygamy. This is a matter of obeying the Prophet, sal Allahu alaihi wasalam, which is a matter of obeying Allah. In the case of Ali's second marriage, this was not the case of an unmarried woman with a religious suitor being refused due to dislike of a sunnah.

    Most people wouldn't be happy leaving their homes, sacrificing their wealth and lives either, and yet this is how we draw nearer to Allah. People would not be happy dying yet this can be the door to a life much better than this world.

  3. #122
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by zi-zizou View Post
    The problem is I'm guessing for some reverts is an element of isolation that they feel once they revert. They may be losing a lot of what they had family/friends/structure and are now adjusting to a new way of life often by themselves while trying to fit into a new community. As time goes on this isolation can grow and it's at that point that poor decisions are made.

    This is also intentionally fostered by the enemies of Allah, they also want to make sure that Muslims cannot unite in any meaningful way, because if they were able to do so they would be too strong and would start cutting into business.

  4. #123
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    lol,

    facepalm,

    quit trolling,

    this thread is about reverts,

    you're the first person to bring up polygamy,

    only you,

    facepalm,

    lol,
    Yes this is true but I kind of jumped on it, actually it has been a big deal in my life as a revert. Also as others have pointed out one of the biggest issues for reverts is marriage, and I actually have a lot of experience with this.

    I was with a non Muslim woman with whom I had a son when I became Muslim. I tried to get her to do a nikah with me but she refused and her father refused, and she was generally very hostile towards Islam. This eventually led to me moving out of our apartment, and marrying another woman who my mom wanted me to marry due to her financial stability but who was also not Muslim. She said shahada and started praying just because she knew I wanted her to, but she was not really interested.

    I was really beginning in terms of Islamic knowledge (six years later I still am), and I had read about how important it was to please my mother, so this was a lot of my intent, and my mother was very happy with me for a while(my mother is not Muslim). Now I still don't really know how to balance the idea that the kuffar will not be pleased with us until we follow their religion, and the idea that if my non Muslim mother is displeased with me that this means that Allah is displeased with me. The other principle affecting me is that I thought that who has the ability to marry should do so. I thought she was of pretty good character and I hoped she would become Muslim as well, and she did say shahada before our nikah.

    After a while it became very clear that she was not really that interested in Islam, but by this time she was pregnant. Later on when our daughter had just turned two, she just flat out told me she doesn't believe in qadr. A couple weeks later she stopped praying.

    I kind of thought this was my fault, because if I was a better Muslim my character would have convinced her, like the imam at my local masjid had talked about. One the other hand, I realize that Nuh, alaihi salam, and Rasulallah sal Allahu alaihi wasalam, were in close proximity to many people who did not become believers, and if they were not able to convince people what chance would I have? Ultimately it is in the hands of Allah I suppose.

    In retrospect I have heard some suggestions that it is preferable not to marry any non Muslims if there are Muslim women in need of husbands, because this shows preference for the kuffar. This is very confusing as we are entagled with non-Muslim communities, and can become more entangled. It's so difficult, especially when someone already has children at the time Allah causes them to become aware of the truth of Islam and the need to live according to it.

    Sorry, I am not giving any easy answers, but I do think it is worth considering this experience. I was really disappointed by the leadership of the Muslim communities, the imams at all the masajid I went to never really developed friendships with me, they were very aloof, and to this day I don't really trust them, and this really made it difficult to try to make decisions. Just the nature of the position of being an imam of a masjid in the west is extremely political, and I think the individuals who can navigate all of these challenges and maintain their integrity are rare.

    Probably the biggest problem facing the ummah right now, reverts included, is the lack of trusted ulema, in my opinion. So many scholars have been imprisoned for speaking the truth, along with many deviant scholars, so it's not like someone being in prison means they are on the haqq. This is really a terrible predicament and I don't know what to do except keep learning Arabic, keep learning Quran, and keep making dua and istighfar.

  5. #124
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by zi-zizou View Post
    Perhaps you were alone before your reverted and had already developed a method of dealing with it or perhaps it's just your disposition to deal with these sorts of challenges.
    That's a fair conclusion.

  6. #125
    Odan muzzybee's Avatar
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gingerbeardman View Post
    Jazakallahu khairan for the complement, but for myself I consider myself middlingly committed to the field of Dawah, there are plenty of people, non-Sheikhs, who I look upto and see doing a much better job than myself who I aspire to match one day.

    On your questions...


    Reverts face the same problems as everyone else in learning the deen, just more pronounced because at first we lack enough knowledge of the community to be able to navigate, tell the good from the bad. There are many different interpretations of even how to tell this good from bad, we lack any grounding in the beginning.

    So the best place to learn the deen is at the feet of a scholar, in a traditional manner, if not a scholar, a student of knowledge, if not then at least a person with a good basic grounding in the deen, according to the authentic aqeedah, the correct manhaj, who you can trust to impart information, be open to listening to others points of view and not just preaching, and being of upstanding trustworthy character.

    Are forums good? well no, not according to the above criteria, however they are often the least bad option for many reverts given the lack of chances to learn otherwise and reverts do need to learn, learn quickly and act upon it whilst they still have that initial zeal for the deen, that post shahadah after-glow of emaan.

    Forums such as ummah forum at least relatively open, in allowing people to put questions, or just their point of view across and allows new Muslims to see their are many different view points, but can at times come across as overwhelming and confusing.



    Reverts need culturing in the deen, to soak up the culture of the deen, not just the knowledge. From regular Muslims, we can pick up that generic culture, which goes across all sections of the Muslim community, more or less, whilst at the same time I would hope not assimilating totally into any one part of it.

    I found living in areas with a wider range of different Muslim cultures to be most beneficial in looking at different peoples and comparing them. Seeing some had one element of the sunnah in their culture, whilst perhaps falling short or even missing another part.

    Living in an area where only one section of the Muslim community is present can cause all sorts of problems for reverts and a lack of balance between culture and deen, met my fair share of reverts who have confused indo-pak culture for traditionalism, or arab culture for the salafi manhaj.

    For non-reverts, I hope from us you can pick up a curious, questioning nature which brought many of us to the deen in the first place, not to accept things just because you are told it is so in terms of your own culture or even aspects of the deen which are taught by rote and are often wrong.





    Groupism, or Sheikh worship is a big problem for many reverts. Strange given we question, question, question in our former life before coming to the deen many reverts, myself included at the beginning of my life in Islam fall into hizbiyya, or blind following of a Sheikh. It could be the certainty which is presented is appealing to someone in such a flux of emotions and ideas. The deen offers many different flavours and it can be very confusing at first.

    Assimilation into one section of the Muslim community culturally is another problem I've already talked about above.

    Isolation is however one of the biggest dangers a new revert will face. Being cut off from friends and often even family, whilst not being able to build up a strong connection to the Muslim community either because of the revert not having the personal skills, inclination to reach out, or else the hand of friendship / brotherhood just not being held out by the existing Muslim community around them.

    The lone sheep is truly targeted by the wolves and lone reverts often fall prey to shaitan, fall into sins, innovations, even kufr, as well as being targetting by the more cult-like elements of the Muslim community.

    Another big risk, and one that many reverts fall into is thinking they know best, that they somehow come into the deen clean of culture, and so able to differentiate haqq from batil from day one, a problem not helped by so many Muslims repeating this lie to them at every opportunity so that you start to think you really are truly special. So reverts putting themselves on a pedestal, or being put on by others.

    These reverts will often come up with modernist, or just plain weird interpretations of the deen, and because they think they know best will tell anyone and everyone about them but really they're just mixing their culture with Islam, same as anyone else.




    Errhh ok, until they are more grounded in the deen YOU DON'T.

    Reverts really shouldn't be getting married early on unless there is a pressing need, it's best to wait a year or two at least and reverts getting 'hit on' is a big problem we face from the pre-existing Muslims, yes even brothers get this problem not just sisters.

    Otherwise, once they've got that grounding in the deen, it's the same as everyone else really. If a sister you ask about her, find out her wali's details and contact through the wali.
    If a revert brother a sister is interested in, get your wali to speak to him.

    Whatever you do, don't go around the normal rules, which many reverts may not be familiar with, or may be a bit blase about following, these rules around courtship are there for everyone's protection and reverts need it more than most.



    One of the key points you mentioned is the isolation and the inability of the muslim masses to accept the reverts more into the community,this could be a key in them trying to find a belongivty with a group etc.

    How do you advice the reverts that come to you in the street ,is it a stick to your masjid kind of advice or go in search of knowledge
    Last edited by muzzybee; 21-05-17 at 02:35 AM.

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  7. #126
    1of the volatile beings myeverything's Avatar
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    @Morose That's because I'm a holistic person when I discuss something. I like to see it from all different angles and be real about it.
    and polygamy is a big deal in most reverts life, according to my observation. @abusammi you aren't alone into this. May Allah give you the best.

    Now I'll quit trolling lol I mean will quit the thread.


    Have a nice day everyone
    How merciful Allah on me by giving me respite,and I persist in my sins and Allah shields me

  8. #127
    Odan muzzybee's Avatar
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Gingerbeardman View Post
    It has it's plus and minus points. Marrying another revert can be great as it means you don't have that culture clash straight off which is always difficult in interracial marriages, made even more difficult when one party is new to Islam.

    However I can never stress enough how much a revert can learn from a good Muslim spouse and wider family, the little things you just cannot pick up in books, or 100 study circles.

    Yes there is more risk, especially when reverts are paired up with totally inappropriate matches by ignorant, cultural imams, but in general I tend to think the risk is worth it if they are careful and have appropriate safeguards in place.
    I have seen openly ,the eagerness of the revert brother or sister to please their spouse,who obviously was brought up with cultur.So their is the need for a sense of trying to gain that accpetance as part of the big family and going out of your comfort zone to do that.But obviously even though you try to please the spouse and family as much as you can, over a period of time it could be way too stressful to keep this up,coupled with the independant inhehrent nature ,I see where the compatibility problems could come in quite easily.

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  9. #128
    Odan muzzybee's Avatar
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rifqah View Post
    I do a variety of online searching, buying a book or two (I've actually bought quite a few now) and asking the imam at the masjid. There's a sister that organises the other sisters at the masjid and I have her number if I need information too.

    I ask here and I ask Abu Musa'ab too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Rifqah View Post
    Yes I agree, you have no idea of the views people have as you get to know them at the masjid, as you don't know what you don't know. You don't know Islam and you don't know who you're being friendly with either.

    I think this is what influenced the sister I mentioned initially. She got into a group of sisters whose were intolerant and would warn her against speaking to anyone almost. She attended meetings with them and wouldn't really say what about but I had a bad feeling the more I heard her language change from kindness and tolerance to judgemental and harsh.

    How do I overcome learning incorrectly? Fortunately I have some good people who have made themselves available to me to ask anything I need Alhamdulillah and also it's not quite so easy to integrate even when you go to classes as people leave the class early, busy lives, picking up children or a little wary of a newcomer (for similar reasons probably). There's a certain safety in that too because making friends is often a slow process which gives you time to learn about the various pitfalls in deen.

    It can be isolating, especially if your family are not Muslim but places like this are really helpful too as if people read your posts that sound a little 'off' I usually get a nudge through a rep or two, letting me know and then an explanation of what is correct. Really helpful and I do really appreciate those who do this.
    Ok understood ,jazakallah khairan
    Last edited by muzzybee; 21-05-17 at 02:56 AM.

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  10. #129
    Odan muzzybee's Avatar
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicen View Post
    Another thing that hasn't been mentioned here is that sometimes converts try to practice every non-fard practices they hear of and what happens is that they burn out and leave Islam altogether.

    And at a time when they are only beginning to get to grips with praying twice or thrice a day, it doesn't help when their fellow muslims tell them:

    Badar, you need to grow 10-feet beard.

    Badar, you need to read that PDF I gave you to refute Sufis and other mushriks.

    Badar, you need to spend more time with Shaykh ibn X,Y,Z.

    Badar, you need to know all the evil sects that are present and put them down.

    Badar, you don't recite this dua regularly? You're gonna go to hell badar.

    Badar, you need to fast on alternative days like Daud(S), if you don't it means Shaytan is whispering to you and there's something wrong with your iman.


    Seriously, converts need to take it easy and chill and take things one step at a time. You really don't wanna crash and burn.
    I agreev,but can you blame them for trying with eagerness early on ,think it is very very important to have someone close from the outset who can use wisdom and knows the person well. I mean strengths and weaknesses

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  11. #130
    Odan muzzybee's Avatar
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by aynina View Post
    Someone on this forum contacted me when they saw i was an strugling extremist lol and they put in work to explain to me and i understood that i was wrong, which was a very hard thing to realise tbh. Then they continued to try to make me a sufi which didnt work Alhamdulillah, they said i have to follow a maddhab so i tried that but i mean it took a lot of work to find what is correct, maddhabism sufism it was a rocky road but yes i did it all with the help of internet and UF
    Ok understood, jazakallah khairan
    Just to clarify dont we all follow a madhab strictly or non strictly in sunnah matters

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  12. #131
    Odan muzzybee's Avatar
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by myeverything View Post
    @muzzybee I don't know about their religion ..etc as these things kinda not being clear to society unless they join some extremist groups. So , I'm not going to talk about something I have no idea about.

    However, the thing that's clear to society " observation" is that majority of reverts men are into polygamy. Also revert women tend to accept it more than other women.

    Of course there's an exception to every rule, but this is the general picture. It's hardly to find a revert man who's not polygamous in gulf states. And they marry among each others. I mean marrying other revert women. Also, they tend to marry and divorce a lot among each others.


    have a nice day everyone
    Interesting, heres the thing though ,how do they manage to look after two wives ,let alone find thema easily.
    Also ,being a revert is a life changing and at the beginning quite a stressful phase.
    Its amazing how they manage to make polygamy work I presume easily

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  13. #132
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by AbuSammy View Post
    Could be other reasons for this as well, it is also more common for reverts to have more sexual partners before becoming Muslim, and exposure to sexuality and pornography can desensitize people so they have a higher threshold for fulfillment. There are many terrible stories of polygamy where the sunnah and fairness is not applied... but really there are also many terrible stories in monogamous marriages for the same reason.

    From my limited experience and study, the chances of a marriage being successful and fulfilling to both husband and wife go up the more religious they are and the more they try to implement the sunnah in their lives, whether the marriage is plural or not.

    As for it not being a stable and happy family life... this reminds me that in the time of the sahaba radhi Allahu anhum, the society was much different and I believe people were much more interconnected and tribal, so the nuclear family did not have to fill all of the roles in the lives of people that it does today, especially in modern societies. And we can also clearly see that the more traditional a society is, the more common it is to see polygamy... probably Afghanistan and Somalia are two of the countries with the highest rates.

    Emotionally, in a tribal society, there are many more social ties that need to be maintained and as a result a husband and wife spending less time together would be less depressing for the wife because she has a lot of other social responsibilities and is connecting in meaningful and important ways with the broader community. Economically, the family is the main site of production in a traditional society, and children are an important form of wealth, rather than a burden, as they are in modern societies, so the value of a man is also more in his ability to maintain the family as a site of production, rather than simply for emotional and psychological support as it is today especially in societies with amassed excess wealth.

    Also, the purpose of life is not to have a stable and happy family life, although this can certainly contribute to the aims of sharia- however, Allah gives the biggest trials to those of His servants with the greatest faith. A stable family life is no doubt desirable, but the fact is four out of five of the sahaba died in combat. The reason that Muslims were able to withstand this is because of the mercy and compassion that the believers had amongst themselves, and the fact that the believers truly were as brothers and sisters to one another, like a big family. Absent this support network, whether it is an extended tribal network or a bond of faith and love between the community of the believers, things become much more difficult, and a lot more of the burden is carried by the immediate family, which puts pressure on both women and men in marriages. This type of family structure is well suited to the modern economy and the structure of modern societies.

    I'm sure some of the sisters will start seeing red when I say this, but my wife says that the reason most women are so hostile to polygamy is because they are looking to their husband for their happiness rather than Allah. I don't know if she is right, but there does seem to be some truth to that statement, but of course the context of every situation is different.

    Usually when I start to get into these issues about social structure people's response is, "Yeah, well we're not in the Arabian desert 1400 years ago." I think this idea that we should adapt to the society we are in is wrong, one because modern societies are by their very nature oppressive and unsustainable. This is why there is so much resistance to alternate ways of living in these modern societies, and why I believe hijra is actually obligatory if we are serious about living according to sunnah.

    Please don't get me wrong, I am not defending men who marry due to desires, or have wives in two different cities, and end up causing harm to their wives and children and that is a real thing. Polygamy, like any aspect of Islam, is a beneficial practice that can become detrimental when some parts of the religion are excluded and others are exaggerated. I do believe though that it is a key component of building an Islamic society.

    Just as it is in the nature of many men to want to have multiple partners and not to have to take responsibility (look at the promiscuity and behavior of non-religious men and the rise of contraception), it is also in the nature of women to want to secure the resources of men and not to have to share their partner's time and wealth. Men have this animal nature because they are driven to reproduce, and women have this instinct because they want to increase the status and health of themselves and their offspring- they are two sides of the same animal drive to reproduce. These are both animal instincts that we must strive against. This is the wisdom of Allah that he is supporting and balancing the desires of both men and women- men are allowed to follow their desires to an extent, if they are able to be fair, upright, and take responsibility, but there are limits and controls that protect women and prevent women from being neglected or 'played' so to speak, as is so common in the morally corrupt western societies.

    I don't understand how this is "gambling" with kids and women's lives though.
    Interesting post ,very well thought out

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  14. #133
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rumaysah~ View Post
    In this day and age where even those born into islam are confused and falling into this and that, there's little hope that reverts will find the truth as soon as they revert.
    But as muslims we pray five times a day minimum, continuously asking Allah for guidance, if you are asking for guidance sincerely it's not likely you will be lead astray.
    The best thing to do in these times we live in is to learn and implement, learn and implement and never to tire of this...while constantly making dua to be from those on the correct path.

    A lot of reverts and even born muslims when they first start practising they start focusing so much on the outer appearance, on the group they associate with, the friends they hang out with, who is salafi, who is not salafi, who is extreme, personal opinions/discussions/debates on topics which bring them no benefit. While all this time, they are still barely praying, or praying incorrectly, still can't recite quran, still have bad character, they still haven't learnt the bare basics that they need to function as a muslim.
    Yes true, we need to concentrate on doing the basics right inshaallah.

    However, to add to your last para, think when you start practising ,your heart is the one that enlightens ,which is the most important part.

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    Senior Member TURJUMAN's Avatar
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cptn._.Mario View Post
    I wonder why the reverts go after the extremists though. As non muslims before, they should know better about the nutjobs around.
    As a non-Muslim, your first priority should be saving yourself from hell-fire & embracing Islam. Not worrying about who reverts associate with!

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    -.-" Cptn._.Mario's Avatar
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by TURJUMAN View Post
    As a non-Muslim, your first priority should be saving yourself from hell-fire & embracing Islam. Not worrying about who reverts associate with!
    I am muslim, I was referring to the other reverts before they converted to Islam.
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    ┻┳|•.•) Hello, Assalamu Alaikum! Check out this topic! #makethechanges
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  17. #136
    061116 Rifqah's Avatar
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by AbuSammy View Post
    Yes this is true but I kind of jumped on it, actually it has been a big deal in my life as a revert. Also as others have pointed out one of the biggest issues for reverts is marriage, and I actually have a lot of experience with this.

    I was with a non Muslim woman with whom I had a son when I became Muslim. I tried to get her to do a nikah with me but she refused and her father refused, and she was generally very hostile towards Islam. This eventually led to me moving out of our apartment, and marrying another woman who my mom wanted me to marry due to her financial stability but who was also not Muslim. She said shahada and started praying just because she knew I wanted her to, but she was not really interested.

    I was really beginning in terms of Islamic knowledge (six years later I still am), and I had read about how important it was to please my mother, so this was a lot of my intent, and my mother was very happy with me for a while(my mother is not Muslim). Now I still don't really know how to balance the idea that the kuffar will not be pleased with us until we follow their religion, and the idea that if my non Muslim mother is displeased with me that this means that Allah is displeased with me. The other principle affecting me is that I thought that who has the ability to marry should do so. I thought she was of pretty good character and I hoped she would become Muslim as well, and she did say shahada before our nikah.

    After a while it became very clear that she was not really that interested in Islam, but by this time she was pregnant. Later on when our daughter had just turned two, she just flat out told me she doesn't believe in qadr. A couple weeks later she stopped praying.

    I kind of thought this was my fault, because if I was a better Muslim my character would have convinced her, like the imam at my local masjid had talked about. One the other hand, I realize that Nuh, alaihi salam, and Rasulallah sal Allahu alaihi wasalam, were in close proximity to many people who did not become believers, and if they were not able to convince people what chance would I have? Ultimately it is in the hands of Allah I suppose.

    In retrospect I have heard some suggestions that it is preferable not to marry any non Muslims if there are Muslim women in need of husbands, because this shows preference for the kuffar. This is very confusing as we are entagled with non-Muslim communities, and can become more entangled. It's so difficult, especially when someone already has children at the time Allah causes them to become aware of the truth of Islam and the need to live according to it.

    Sorry, I am not giving any easy answers, but I do think it is worth considering this experience. I was really disappointed by the leadership of the Muslim communities, the imams at all the masajid I went to never really developed friendships with me, they were very aloof, and to this day I don't really trust them, and this really made it difficult to try to make decisions. Just the nature of the position of being an imam of a masjid in the west is extremely political, and I think the individuals who can navigate all of these challenges and maintain their integrity are rare.

    Probably the biggest problem facing the ummah right now, reverts included, is the lack of trusted ulema, in my opinion. So many scholars have been imprisoned for speaking the truth, along with many deviant scholars, so it's not like someone being in prison means they are on the haqq. This is really a terrible predicament and I don't know what to do except keep learning Arabic, keep learning Quran, and keep making dua and istighfar.
    This, this and this ^

  18. #137
    striving to be sincere Abu Kamel's Avatar
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Rifqah View Post
    This, this and this ^
    I would go further and say the biggest problem for the entire world is the absence of a rightly guided "darul Islam", a khilafah, where the society is entirely and solely according to Islam and propagates the sole worship of Allah alone.

    It is a compounding problem, not having this "darul Islam".

    Abu Hurairah narrated that the Messenger of Allah said:
    "The Imam is like a shield whose orders should be obeyed when they (the Muslims) fight, and where they should seek protection. If he enjoins fear of Allah and behaves justly, then he will be rewarded, but if he enjoins otherwise, then it will be a burden (of sin) on him." [sahih Sunan Nasai]

    The Prophet said "The bonds of Islam will be undone one by one. Each time one bond is undone, the people will move to the next one (and adhere to that). The first bond to be undone will be ruling (al-hukm) and the last one will be prayer (al-salaah).” [sahih Ahmad]

    And he said “Islam began as a stranger and will go back to being a stranger as it started, so give glad tidings to the strangers.” (sahih Muslim).

    As a result of not having a khalifah a khilafa state where Islam is nurtured in society, every is distorted and disrupted, from the top: ruling, to the last "knot" of Islam: prayers.
    As a result, a "convert/revert" new Muslim suffers from the distortions of existing/borned Muslims, and the negligence and disobediences and hypocricy and kufr of born/existing Muslims. A true believer appears to be "gharib" strange to the Muslim who has lived his wholel life in compromises and distortions- shaving his face, lying to rulers and shayakh, and bosses and even himself out of a sense of self preservation- ( a prophetic sign of our times as well)

    As I just posted in another thread, grand mufta, memorizers of the Holy Quran, ulama closest to the regimes and accountable for the existing state of affairs, throw scorn on the "ghurabaa" and seek to alter Islam to suit "existing geopolitical realities" and even they have abolished the khilafah among themselves.
    Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
    " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

  19. #138
    Odan .khayriyyah.'s Avatar
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cptn._.Mario View Post
    Any regrets ending up with that kind of crowd? for sharing
    Attracting the attention of the government.

    I wasn't all over the internet leaving comments like "baqiyah", but it still happened to me. I would just talk to people in Syria and I guess the government saw.

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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by aynina View Post
    Someone on this forum contacted me when they saw i was an strugling extremist lol and they put in work to explain to me and i understood that i was wrong, which was a very hard thing to realise tbh. Then they continued to try to make me a sufi which didnt work Alhamdulillah, they said i have to follow a maddhab so i tried that but i mean it took a lot of work to find what is correct, maddhabism sufism it was a rocky road but yes i did it all with the help of internet and UF
    That sort of happened but not with a Sufi. This was like a year ago, but I cited someone very extreme in takfir and a brother on this forum warned me about him. I think UF is helpful when it comes to these kinds of things.

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    اصبر aynina's Avatar
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by .khayriyyah. View Post
    That sort of happened but not with a Sufi. This was like a year ago, but I cited someone very extreme in takfir and a brother on this forum warned me about him. I think UF is helpful when it comes to these kinds of things.
    Yes UF helped me a lot tbh
    يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ ٱعْبُدُوا۟ رَبَّكُمُ ٱلَّذِى خَلَقَكُمْ وَٱلَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ

    O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous

    Surah Al Baqarah ayah 21

  22. #141
    striving to be sincere Abu Kamel's Avatar
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    @muzzybee
    @aynina

    Okay, I'll address what I think is deplorable about this thread.

    First, the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by muzzybee View Post
    This statement [from Gingerbeardman] really got me thinking.Specially being drawn to "extremes" in deen.
    Muzzybee wanted to address what appeared to be a trend in 'revert' new Muslims as mentioned by Gingerbeardman in another thread, but then Muzzybee called this "trend" being drawn to extremes in deen.

    Aynina chose to share her personal anecdotal experience of being a new Muslim, being married to a IS supporter and associating with other likeminded revert new Muslims until she was proselytized by a sufi through UF, which apparently led ( or misled) her to leave her marriage and leave, as she said, extremism, for what one assumes she means "moderate, normal" Islam. She went on to mention that new Muslims talked of "Taghut" as if it was a strange thing, and that new Muslims are drawn to various groups out of a sense of confusion and fear. And others have found her anecdote very informative, calling these reverts "extremists".

    Well the reality is frightening: there is the WORSHIP OF ALLAH ALONE, and then there is the worship and servitude to the TAGHUT.

    Shaykh ibn Qayyim (rh) defined Taghut as that that leads one to exceed the limits defined by Allah and His Messenger.

    The concept of rejecting, renouncing, repudiating, abandoning Taghy is part of the first pillar in Islam, the very foundation of Islam and foundation of Tauhid.

    But it is not widely taught, especially in the West, specifically in America, but probably in the masajid in Europe as well. In America, the vast majority of mainstream and large organizational masajid do not teach renouncing and abandoning Taghy in part because they advocate integration in the American society. And that even entails accepting the American president as your leader, the US constitution as "your constitution", and the country as "your country". They don't want Muslims to know and therefore evaluate and question whether any of that is Taghy- exceeding the limits defined in Islam.

    And then the term "extremism" emerges.
    As Noam Chomsky mentioned "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion" and "“It's not radical Islam that worries the US -- it's independence".

    The term "extremism" permeates the media and Western culture for the above reasons: to control people's thoughts in order to retain their obedience, submission, to Taghut power: kafir power and authority of Man and Woman over Islam.

    It is used by a Muslim regarding other Muslims when that Muslim seeks to tap into the Taghut dominion over Muslims. It has NOTHING to do with what Allah AWJ defines as "extreme", or what Islam clearly identifies as extreme.

    And then Aynina's experience comes to mind.
    Is it a good thing that a halal Muslim marriage is undermined by an outsider seeking to proselytize his own interpretations? Perhaps this happened in Aynina's case, perhaps it didn't. But it speaks to the inclination of some Muslims here to self censor and restrain themselves to be obedient and submissive to the Western Taghut even while being disobedient to Allah.

    And that leads to the primary issue: Muslims are disobedient to Allah and are taking extra efforts to be obedient to the Tawaghit powers. Even working together to keeping Muslims disobedient to Allah but obedient to Tawaghit.

    We cannot have two hearts.

    The problems of the Muslim world are overwhelmingly caused by "born Muslims", or "old Muslims" raised as Muslims. The biggest traitors, the biggests corruptors of the world are "old Muslims"- not reverts. And very often, revert"new Muslims are keenly aware that the vast majority of born Muslims are simply going with the flow of Taghy, or worse, have been conditioned to obey Taghy, to even serve Taghy even if it means disobeying and rebelling against Allah. And one can go to Muslim lands and see this clearly: man made kufr legal codes rule the land, while Islam is prayers in the masjid, and perhaps a "state religion".

    And born Muslims have migrated to the West carrying this conditioned obedience to Taghy and "reverts" tend to see this. The problem reverts face is they are not knowledgable about the Deen enough to find the Path to Allah clearly to avoid the pitfalls of born Muslims and to avoid Taghy.

    And then, the matter of sufis arises.

    Sufis very often come here and champion their ways.
    But they have a lot to answer for.
    As Aynina mentioned, it was a Sufi who proselytized to her, to lead ( or mislead) her out of her little clique and tried to get her into his/her Sufi order.

    Sufis are not only working with the Tawaghit in the West, but Sufis have been instrumental and vital to supporting and propping up the murtad "Muslim" regimes and nations of the Muslim world. Kuftaro, the head of Naqshbandi order in Syria, was also te grand mufti who recognized and supported the Baathist regime of both Hafiz and his son Bashar. And likewise in Jordan, and Egypt, and Morocco, and other countries.

    Is this what it means to be "normal", moderate, on the Middle Way? To obey Taghut but disobey Allah?
    Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
    " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

  23. #142
    اصبر aynina's Avatar
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Kamel View Post
    @muzzybee
    @aynina

    Okay, I'll address what I think is deplorable about this thread.

    First, the OP.



    Muzzybee wanted to address what appeared to be a trend in 'revert' new Muslims as mentioned by Gingerbeardman in another thread, but then Muzzybee called this "trend" being drawn to extremes in deen.

    Aynina chose to share her personal anecdotal experience of being a new Muslim, being married to a IS supporter and associating with other likeminded revert new Muslims until she was proselytized by a sufi through UF, which apparently led ( or misled) her to leave her marriage and leave, as she said, extremism, for what one assumes she means "moderate, normal" Islam.
    I was already divorced before i was contacted by the sufi, this had nothing to do with my divorce.
    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Kamel View Post
    She went on to mention that new Muslims talked of "Taghut" as if it was a strange thing, and that new Muslims are drawn to various groups out of a sense of confusion and fear. And others have found her anecdote very informative, calling these reverts "extremists".
    There were no reverts talking about taghut at this time, there wereboth born muslims and reverts talking about taghut, they made takfir on Al Albani and ibn taymiyyah, and a third i think was ibn Qayyim but Allahu alam i am not sure about the last, and if you asked them what their manhaj was they would reply by saying ‘we follow the wahy’.
    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Kamel View Post
    Well the reality is frightening: there is the WORSHIP OF ALLAH ALONE, and then there is the worship and servitude to the TAGHUT.

    Shaykh ibn Qayyim (rh) defined Taghut as that that leads one to exceed the limits defined by Allah and His Messenger.

    The concept of rejecting, renouncing, repudiating, abandoning Taghy is part of the first pillar in Islam, the very foundation of Islam and foundation of Tauhid.

    But it is not widely taught, especially in the West, specifically in America, but probably in the masajid in Europe as well. In America, the vast majority of mainstream and large organizational masajid do not teach renouncing and abandoning Taghy in part because they advocate integration in the American society. And that even entails accepting the American president as your leader, the US constitution as "your constitution", and the country as "your country". They don't want Muslims to know and therefore evaluate and question whether any of that is Taghy- exceeding the limits defined in Islam.

    And then the term "extremism" emerges.
    As Noam Chomsky mentioned "The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion" and "“It's not radical Islam that worries the US -- it's independence".

    The term "extremism" permeates the media and Western culture for the above reasons: to control people's thoughts in order to retain their obedience, submission, to Taghut power: kafir power and authority of Man and Woman over Islam.

    It is used by a Muslim regarding other Muslims when that Muslim seeks to tap into the Taghut dominion over Muslims. It has NOTHING to do with what Allah AWJ defines as "extreme", or what Islam clearly identifies as extreme.

    And then Aynina's experience comes to mind.
    Is it a good thing that a halal Muslim marriage is undermined by an outsider seeking to proselytize his own interpretations? Perhaps this happened in Aynina's case, perhaps it didn't. But it speaks to the inclination of some Muslims here to self censor and restrain themselves to be obedient and submissive to the Western Taghut even while being disobedient to Allah.

    If there was any outsider undermining my marriage it would have been his sister in law who was a strong isis supporter for she told my ex bad things behind my back, and his mum, again, no one on UF had anything to do with my divorce

    Did you just say i was disobedient to Allah because of all of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Kamel View Post
    And that leads to the primary issue: Muslims are disobedient to Allah and are taking extra efforts to be obedient to the Tawaghit powers. Even working together to keeping Muslims disobedient to Allah but obedient to Tawaghit.

    We cannot have two hearts.

    The problems of the Muslim world are overwhelmingly caused by "born Muslims", or "old Muslims" raised as Muslims. The biggest traitors, the biggests corruptors of the world are "old Muslims"- not reverts. And very often, revert"new Muslims are keenly aware that the vast majority of born Muslims are simply going with the flow of Taghy, or worse, have been conditioned to obey Taghy, to even serve Taghy even if it means disobeying and rebelling against Allah. And one can go to Muslim lands and see this clearly: man made kufr legal codes rule the land, while Islam is prayers in the masjid, and perhaps a "state religion".

    And born Muslims have migrated to the West carrying this conditioned obedience to Taghy and "reverts" tend to see this. The problem reverts face is they are not knowledgable about the Deen enough to find the Path to Allah clearly to avoid the pitfalls of born Muslims and to avoid Taghy.

    I never meant to say that muslims should not reject the tawaghit.
    But i said there were people talking about nothing but this matter, for example one said; a judge is taghut, thus if you are invited to court you have committed kufr if you go there, even if by not going there you will have a lot of trouble such as paying fines, doing time in prison etc.
    It doesn’t even matter what they said, my point was that they were focussed on one matter alone which was taghut.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Kamel View Post
    And then, the matter of sufis arises.

    Sufis very often come here and champion their ways.
    But they have a lot to answer for.
    As Aynina mentioned, it was a Sufi who proselytized to her, to lead ( or mislead) her out of her little clique and tried to get her into his/her Sufi order.

    Sufis are not only working with the Tawaghit in the West, but Sufis have been instrumental and vital to supporting and propping up the murtad "Muslim" regimes and nations of the Muslim world. Kuftaro, the head of Naqshbandi order in Syria, was also te grand mufti who recognized and supported the Baathist regime of both Hafiz and his son Bashar. And likewise in Jordan, and Egypt, and Morocco, and other countries.

    Is this what it means to be "normal", moderate, on the Middle Way? To obey Taghut but disobey Allah?
    I don’t even know if you are accusing me of being a moderate, taghut obeying, Allah disobeying ‘muslim‘ just because i don’t support isis anymore or if i misunderstood subhanAllah.
    يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ ٱعْبُدُوا۟ رَبَّكُمُ ٱلَّذِى خَلَقَكُمْ وَٱلَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ

    O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous

    Surah Al Baqarah ayah 21

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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    The one last thing I have to mention in this thread...........

    In threads relating to Ottomans, a lot of muslims are quick to emphasise how the Ottomans went "astray" which is cited as a reason for their downfall.

    And that may well be true.

    But if that's the case, what do we attribute the fall of the great ISIS caliphate who are ofcourse perfect in Aqeedah and fiqh and are on the righteousness fighting "Taghut". And yet they find themsleves getting crushed like bugs at the hands of shia and kurdish militiamen, not even UK or USA.

    What do we attribute their downfall to?

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    اصبر aynina's Avatar
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    Re: Reverts - A discussion

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicen View Post
    The one last thing I have to mention in this thread...........

    In threads relating to Ottomans, a lot of muslims are quick to emphasise how the Ottomans went "astray" which is cited as a reason for their downfall.

    And that may well be true.

    But if that's the case, what do we attribute the fall of the great ISIS caliphate who are ofcourse perfect in Aqeedah and fiqh and are on the righteousness fighting "Taghut". And yet they find themsleves getting crushed like bugs at the hands of shia and kurdish militiamen, not even UK or USA.

    What do we attribute their downfall to?
    Theyre not muhsineen nor mumineen, maybe Allahu alam muslimeen
    يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ ٱعْبُدُوا۟ رَبَّكُمُ ٱلَّذِى خَلَقَكُمْ وَٱلَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ

    O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous

    Surah Al Baqarah ayah 21

 

 

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