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  1. #1

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    Is praying pointless?

    Is praying pointless?

    The God is omniscient and knows everything that is going to happen in the future and the outcome of every situation is know to him.
    He has already planned the future (al-qadr) and he is the best of the planners and nothing happens against his plan and will.

    Now if I ask God for something...

    If that thing is part of his plan, it will happen regardless of my praying.
    If that outcome is not part of his plan, it will simply not happen.

    If he changes his plan after my prayer, the first outcome was never going to happen and was never part of his plan because he always knew his plan and the final outcome?

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    Odan Morose's Avatar
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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Prayer can change 'Qadr', at times. Plus, it's a worship in itself because regardless of the end outcome, the prayer to Allah is symbolic of our reliance upon Allah and thus acknowledging that He has power to help us, only. And if nothing else, it's comforting when you pray for something because it's sort of entrusted it to another (here 'another' being Allah), and therefore taking the worry away.

    Anyway read here https://islamqa.info/en/11694

    You've been refuted essentially.

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    Abu-Tawheed Saif-Uddin's Avatar
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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by shabbir80 View Post
    Is praying pointless?

    The God is omniscient and knows everything that is going to happen in the future and the outcome of every situation is know to him.
    He has already planned the future (al-qadr) and he is the best of the planners and nothing happens against his plan and will.

    Now if I ask God for something...

    If that thing is part of his plan, it will happen regardless of my praying.
    If that outcome is not part of his plan, it will simply not happen.

    If he changes his plan after my prayer, the first outcome was never going to happen and was never part of his plan because he always knew his plan and the final outcome?
    This is a common fallacy propogated by non Muslims,

    Knowing and compelling someone to do something arbitrarily are 2 different matters,

    Whatever Allah عز و جل decreed is with his knowledge and wisdom, he does not decree stuff arbitrarily

    Kuffar or Mushrikun used to say Allah عز و جل Guides who he wants and he misguides or leaves to stray who wants...

    In other words insinuating it's his fault,

    However Allah عز و جل refuted his Evil argument in the Qur'an,

    Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 26:

    "...as for those who disbelieve, they say: "What did Allah intend by this parable?" By it He misleads many, and many He guides thereby. AndHe misleads thereby only those who are Al-Fasiqun (the rebellious, disobedient to Allah)."

    The blame Always tests upon the individual, there is no passing the buck,

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    Prayer can change 'Qadr', at times. Plus, it's a worship in itself because regardless of the end outcome, the prayer to Allah is symbolic of our reliance upon Allah and thus acknowledging that He has power to help us, only. And if nothing else, it's comforting when you pray for something because it's sort of entrusted it to another (here 'another' being Allah), and therefore taking the worry away.

    Anyway read here https://islamqa.info/en/11694

    You've been refuted essentially.
    The confusing and hard to grasp concept is all-knowing omniscient Allah changing the al-qadr.

    If by al-qadr you and I mean fate/predestination and things Allah knows about the future in advance then just imagine: Allah knows an event A will happen and that's the qadr/fate/predestination, but a prayer changes things and now another event B will happen instead and that's what Allah knows now and that is qadr/fate/predestination. I'm sure Allah always knew that there will be prayer and eventually event B will happen, right? Does that make the previous knowledge of event A correct predestination?

  5. #5
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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    This whole line of thinking is flawed.

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    Odan Morose's Avatar
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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    This whole line of thinking is flawed.
    Respond to post #4 A'A

    I would but I don't want to say something incorrect.

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    This whole line of thinking is flawed.
    +1

  8. #8
    Odan Thunderstorm's Avatar
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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by shabbir80 View Post
    Is praying pointless?

    The God is omniscient and knows everything that is going to happen in the future and the outcome of every situation is know to him.
    He has already planned the future (al-qadr) and he is the best of the planners and nothing happens against his plan and will.

    Now if I ask God for something...

    If that thing is part of his plan, it will happen regardless of my praying.
    If that outcome is not part of his plan, it will simply not happen.

    If he changes his plan after my prayer, the first outcome was never going to happen and was never part of his plan because he always knew his plan and the final outcome?
    No it will not happen regardless of you praying. You praying is a prerequisite, it has to definitively happen in order for Him to definitively choose a reaction to it.

    Knowing the future has no impact on it. If He knows you will ask, He knows whether He will give you or not - it's not like He can know that you will ask and then you change your mind and don't ask but He somehow still knows that you will ask when you really won't and that it happens regardless lol - either you will ask or you won't ask. And He knows which of the two will happen and has decided whether to reply or not.

    If you will ask Him for something, He may grant it to you because you made the effort to ask Him.
    If you don't ask Him, then He won't give you what you asked for because you never asked for it.

    This all presuming that He gives kuffar what they ask for.
    Say what somebody can do instead of the haram if you want to help.

  9. #9
    Abu-Tawheed Saif-Uddin's Avatar
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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    When Kuffar come up with illogical arguments to refute Islam,

    Your know something is seriously wrong with them,
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    "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

    – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by shabbir80 View Post
    Is praying pointless?

    The God is omniscient and knows everything that is going to happen in the future and the outcome of every situation is know to him.
    He has already planned the future (al-qadr) and he is the best of the planners and nothing happens against his plan and will.

    Now if I ask God for something...

    If that thing is part of his plan, it will happen regardless of my praying.
    If that outcome is not part of his plan, it will simply not happen.

    If he changes his plan after my prayer, the first outcome was never going to happen and was never part of his plan because he always knew his plan and the final outcome?
    By making Dua you ask Allah to hasten the promise, you forgot to mention Allah is the most Merciful turning to Allah not only increases or insures your desires are achieved but increases your benefit on the Day of Judgment and the hereafter, and at times Allah will not answer your Dua and it will not happen no matter what because Allah does not desire it, praying to Allah isn't for his benefit it's for your own.

  11. #11
    Odan muzzybee's Avatar
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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Jarir View Post
    By making Dua you ask Allah to hasten the promise, you forgot to mention Allah is the most Merciful turning to Allah not only increases or insures your desires are achieved but increases your benefit on the Day of Judgment and the hereafter, and at times Allah will not answer your Dua and it will not happen no matter what because Allah does not desire it, praying to Allah isn't for his benefit it's for your own.
    Basically this ,I think the dua we ask itself is part of the qadr ,so Allah swt knows we will ask this dua.
    See we dont know how it will be thats why we have choice ,and we rely on our creator.

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    Respond to post #4 A'A

    I would but I don't want to say something incorrect.
    The problem is that OP is basing his reasoning entirely on philosophy. He starts with the 'assumption' that 'god' exists and jumps forward. However. if he doesn't actually believe that 'god' exists, then it's futile because even if everything about al-qadr wal qadha was crystal clear, his get out clause is that it's all academic since 'god' doesn't exist anyway.

    X is illogical therefore 'god' doesn't exist
    X is logical but it doesn't prove 'god' exists

    It's all an exercise in futility.

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    Abu-Tawheed Saif-Uddin's Avatar
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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    The problem is that OP is basing his reasoning entirely on philosophy. He starts with the 'assumption' that 'god' exists and jumps forward. However. if he doesn't actually believe that 'god' exists, then it's futile because even if everything about al-qadr wal qadha was crystal clear, his get out clause is that it's all academic since 'god' doesn't exist anyway.

    X is illogical therefore 'god' doesn't exist
    X is logical but it doesn't prove 'god' exists

    It's all an exercise in futility.
    These Atheist Nutjobs tend to be masters in futile self refuting arguments,

    I heard some here at work,

    I wonder why they have a brain in the first place, if this is what they are doing with it,

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    "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

    – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

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    الإسلام هو الحقيقة Abū ʿĪsa al-ʿAjamī's Avatar
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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    These Atheist Nutjobs tend to be masters in futile self refuting arguments,

    I heard some here at work,

    I wonder why they have a brain in the first place, if this is what they are doing with it,

    Sometimes Atheists can be quite stubborn indeed. AFAIK some don't care about others' arguments and are just too arrogant to take others' points into consideration.

    That being said I think the OP is an agnostic.

    Barakallahu feek.
    If following Aḥmad makes me a 'Wahhābī', then I declare that I am one.

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    coalesce ninety1daisies's Avatar
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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by muzzybee View Post
    Basically this ,I think the dua we ask itself is part of the qadr ,so Allah swt knows we will ask this dua.
    See we dont know how it will be thats why we have choice ,and we rely on our creator.
    was thinking the same
    Indeed we belong to Allah,
    and indeed to Him we will return.


    Quran 2:156

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Jarir View Post
    By making Dua you ask Allah to hasten the promise, you forgot to mention Allah is the most Merciful turning to Allah not only increases or insures your desires are achieved but increases your benefit on the Day of Judgment and the hereafter, and at times Allah will not answer your Dua and it will not happen no matter what because Allah does not desire it, praying to Allah isn't for his benefit it's for your own.
    What does "hasten the promise" mean? Do you believe there is predestination and Dua can change it or hasten the events in the predestination?

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by muzzybee View Post
    Basically this ,I think the dua we ask itself is part of the qadr ,so Allah swt knows we will ask this dua.
    See we dont know how it will be thats why we have choice ,and we rely on our creator.
    If everything, including dua is part of the qadr then that's what I said in OP, everything is predestined.

    Can our choice to ask something in dua/prayer change what is predestined or al-qadr?

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by shabbir80 View Post
    What does "hasten the promise" mean? Do you believe there is predestination and Dua can change it or hasten the events in the predestination?
    Yes

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by shabbir80 View Post
    If everything, including dua is part of the qadr then that's what I said in OP, everything is predestined.

    Can our choice to ask something in dua/prayer change what is predestined or al-qadr?
    Everything is predestined by Allaah. Our prayers and decisions are made by free will, What will you choose?
    It is predestined by Allaah but what will you choose?

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by shabbir80 View Post
    Is praying pointless?
    Prayer is a gift from Allaah. To unlock its secrets and barakah one has to pray.


    The God is omniscient and knows everything that is going to happen in the future and the outcome of every situation is know to him.
    He has already planned the future (al-qadr) and he is the best of the planners and nothing happens against his plan and will.

    Now if I ask God for something...

    If that thing is part of his plan, it will happen regardless of my praying.
    If that outcome is not part of his plan, it will simply not happen.

    If he changes his plan after my prayer, the first outcome was never going to happen and was never part of his plan because he always knew his plan and the final outcome?
    This is correct afaik/according to me

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by shabbir80 View Post
    If everything, including dua is part of the qadr then that's what I said in OP, everything is predestined.

    Can our choice to ask something in dua/prayer change what is predestined or al-qadr?
    why does it matter when Allah already knows what you'll ask for? All you're trying to say is "can I ask for something that Allah didn't know that I will wish for?"... and the answer is no, cuz again Allah knows what you'll ask for!

    Your question reminds me of non-deterministic machines... we program the behaviour (we determine the set of possible transitions) and we let it roll, what transition you take in that machine is your choice, you can choose the kafir transition, or the Muslim transition... just cuz Allah knows what you'll choose, doesn't mean Allah forced it on you... you had the choice.

    few days ago, I had an argument with a colleague and before I confronted her, I knew precisely how she'll react and what she'll say... I knew it cuz I know her well enough by now... and she did and said precisely what I anticipated. Did I choose for her how to react and what to say? I knew it yes cuz I know how she thinks, but I've let her decide how to react! If you ask any parent how their kids will react to something, most of them will know...
    How can one imagine that Allah who created us from scratch wouldn't know how we'll react to things, when we are (in our most ignorant and weakest form) able to do that in many situations. I can't understand why non-Muslims struggle with this.
    *
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    * typing from my phone, excuse the mess

  22. #22
    Odan ZeeshanParvez's Avatar
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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    These Atheist Nutjobs tend to be masters in futile self refuting arguments,

    I heard some here at work,

    I wonder why they have a brain in the first place, if this is what they are doing with it,

    Maybe "evolution" left them behind.....

    On a more serious note, kaafirs generally have a problem with Allaah knowing everything that will happen.

    Simple question: You know you are going to die. Its written in stone. Does that make you doubt life or prevent you from doing what you do?

    Allaah knows everything so why does that prevent you from Him?

    Simple. You want a life where you can live according to your whims. Your whims are your god.

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    Abu-Tawheed Saif-Uddin's Avatar
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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    Maybe "evolution" left them behind.....

    On a more serious note, kaafirs generally have a problem with Allaah knowing everything that will happen.

    Simple question: You know you are going to die. Its written in stone. Does that make you doubt life or prevent you from doing what you do?

    Allaah knows everything so why does that prevent you from Him?

    Simple. You want a life where you can live according to your whims. Your whims are your god.
    True akhi,

    they pretend to be logical, but instead they are amongst the most Illogical, worshippers of their desires,

    Surah Al-Jathiya Ayah 23
    ----------------------------------
    Have you seen him who takes his own lust (vain desires) as his ilah (god), and Allah knowing (him as such), left him astray, and sealed his hearing and his heart, and put a cover on his sight. Who then will guide him after Allah? Will you not then remember?


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    Poor slave. Abdullah012's Avatar
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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    The way I see it.

    Allah has decreed everything. You have a free will. You making Dua and asking Allah for something and Him granting you this is PART of Qadr.

    So if you neglect the prayers, Allah will punish you. You have a free will to repend and do righteous deeds.

    Please correct me if I'm wrong.
    Saying: ask forgiveness from your Lord; for He is Oft-Forgiving
    He will send rain to you in abundance
    Give you increase in wealth and sons; and bestow on you gardens and bestow on you rivers

    [Surah Nuh 10-12]
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCft1RdHToQ

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    OP is of the 'LOL CAN GOD CREATE A ROCK THAT IS TOO HEAVY FOR HIM TO LIFT LOL!!!!1' school of thought.

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    التبع اليماني obaid_m's Avatar
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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    OP is of the 'LOL CAN GOD CREATE A ROCK THAT IS TOO HEAVY FOR HIM TO LIFT LOL!!!!1' school of thought.
    You mean Confusedyyia school of thought?
    “Have you seen he who has taken as his god his [own] desire, and Allah has sent him astray due to knowledge and has set a seal upon his hearing and his heart and put over his vision a veil? So who will guide him after Allah ? Then will you not be reminded? And they say, “There is not but our worldly life; we die and live, and nothing destroys us except time.” And they have of that no knowledge; they are only assuming.” Quran 45:23-24

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    الإسلام هو الحقيقة Abū ʿĪsa al-ʿAjamī's Avatar
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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by obaid_m View Post
    You mean Confusedyyia school of thought?
    I guess you could say that. =)
    If following Aḥmad makes me a 'Wahhābī', then I declare that I am one.

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    "رَوْحٌ وَ رَيْحَان" Tayoofa's Avatar
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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by shabbir80 View Post
    Is praying pointless?

    The God is omniscient and knows everything that is going to happen in the future and the outcome of every situation is know to him.
    He has already planned the future (al-qadr) and he is the best of the planners and nothing happens against his plan and will.

    Now if I ask God for something...

    If that thing is part of his plan, it will happen regardless of my praying.
    If that outcome is not part of his plan, it will simply not happen.

    If he changes his plan after my prayer, the first outcome was never going to happen and was never part of his plan because he always knew his plan and the final outcome?

    This link is explaining everything ..

    Why should a Muslim act if everything is already decreed by Allah?

    http://abuaminaelias.com/why-should-...reed-by-allah/


    ("Verily, the Shariah is founded upon wisdom and welfare for the servants in this life and the afterlife. In its entirety it is justice, mercy, benefit, and wisdom. Every matter which abandons justice for tyranny, mercy for cruelty, benefit for corruption, and wisdom for foolishness is not a part of the Shariah even if it was introduced therein by an interpretation") Ibn Al Qayyim may Allah have mercy on him

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by shabbir80 View Post
    Is praying pointless?

    The God is omniscient and knows everything that is going to happen in the future and the outcome of every situation is know to him.
    He has already planned the future (al-qadr) and he is the best of the planners and nothing happens against his plan and will.

    Now if I ask God for something...

    If that thing is part of his plan, it will happen regardless of my praying.
    If that outcome is not part of his plan, it will simply not happen.

    If he changes his plan after my prayer, the first outcome was never going to happen and was never part of his plan because he always knew his plan and the final outcome?
    Qadr is perfect knowledge of Allah swt , Our actions are known to Allah swt beforehand through that knowledge , it does not mean that we are forced to do that.

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    OP is of the 'LOL CAN GOD CREATE A ROCK THAT IS TOO HEAVY FOR HIM TO LIFT LOL!!!!1' school of thought.
    I don't know what that school of thought is but what would be the Islamic answer to that omnipotence paradox:

    'LOL CAN GOD CREATE A ROCK THAT IS TOO HEAVY FOR HIM TO LIFT LOL!!!! ?

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by shabbir80 View Post
    I don't know what that school of thought is but what would be the Islamic answer to that omnipotence paradox:

    'LOL CAN GOD CREATE A ROCK THAT IS TOO HEAVY FOR HIM TO LIFT LOL!!!! ?
    It's a stupid question, asked and entertained by stupid people, from the stupid school of thought.

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    It's a stupid question, asked and entertained by stupid people, from the stupid school of thought.
    Can you elaborate more why you find it stupid?

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by shabbir80 View Post
    Can you elaborate more why you find it stupid?
    You or your question?

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    You or your question?
    This question:

    'LOL CAN GOD CREATE A ROCK THAT IS TOO HEAVY FOR HIM TO LIFT LOL!!!!1' ?

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by shabbir80 View Post
    This question:

    'LOL CAN GOD CREATE A ROCK THAT IS TOO HEAVY FOR HIM TO LIFT LOL!!!!1' ?
    Well it doesn't make sense as it's rhetorical and designed to instigate a certain type of response.

    You are of that (stupid) school of thought... I knew it.

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    Well it doesn't make sense as it's rhetorical and designed to instigate a certain type of response.

    You are of that (stupid) school of thought... I knew it.
    It was you who brought that question into the thread. But I don't think that question is stupid. The question questions the limits of absolute omnipotence. Calling a question and questioner stupid doesn't answer anything.

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by shabbir80 View Post
    It was you who brought that question into the thread. But I don't think that question is stupid. The question questions the limits of absolute omnipotence. Calling a question and questioner stupid doesn't answer anything.
    How would you go about answering the question?

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    How would you go about answering the question?
    I would say there is no such thing as absolute omnipotence.

    How would you?

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by shabbir80 View Post
    I would say there is no such thing as absolute omnipotence.
    So the question is useless to both the believer and the disbeliever. Hey, it sounds clever when you're high on opium trying to impress your friends.

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    Re: Is praying pointless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    So the question is useless to both the believer and the disbeliever. Hey, it sounds clever when you're high on opium trying to impress your friends.
    So you wont answer the question because you find it useless, stupid etc?

 

 

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