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Thread: Co - Wife.....

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    Co - Wife.....

    Be careful with your words, they go back in to world and come and hit you right back in the face!

    What kind of things needs to be considered in a polygamous marriage?
    وَالْعَصْرِ

    إِنَّ الْإِنسَانَ لَفِي خُسْرٍ

    إِلَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ وَتَوَاصَوْا بِالْحَقِّ وَتَوَاصَوْا بِالصَّبْرِ

    "If Allah (swt) only sent this Surah to us, for the guidance of Mankind, this will be enough for us” - Imam Shaafi'ee r.a.

    "Yeh dunya daar e faani hain, Tum apna dil mat lagaon, Ganimat samaj zinadagee ki bahar, aana na hoga, yahaa baar baar......"

    Khanqah Habibiyah

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Gingerbeardman View Post
    RE your point,



    This would not be the case in every instance, if a woman genuinely feels she cannot live with this, it is making her miserable and affecting her deen and emaan then she has a right to ask for a divorce and if not given approach an islamic court for khula and Rasoolullah (Sallallahu alayhi wa salam) gave the khula of one of the sahabiyat because she was not attracted to her husband so whatever is greater than this is falling under the same.

    Yes divorce without a valid reason is a serious matter and a big sin, but what is a valid reason is wider and more reasonable than most cultural imams would suggest when giving talks on marriage or advising sisters seeking help when in oppressive marriages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ayman2 View Post
    Question, why it will be a sin if she asks for a divorce? isn't a valid reason? ie. what is considered as a valid reason in general? does the same reasons apply to men as well?
    Well, many questions actually
    Men have the right to divorce originally so they are not bound by a reason. But they lose on Mahr and if children then he has to sustain them until they are grown up. As for women, they should not ask for a divorce without a valid reason.

    a women asks her husband for a divorce, for no reason, then the smell of paradise is forbidden for her". (At-Tirmidhi narrated it. He said this is a hasan hadith. Sunnah At-Tirmidhi #1187.)

    So thats why if a husband is totally just and the polygamy clause was not in the contract then technically a woman asking for divorce will be under this hadith. The other issue that Gingerbeardman mentioned is Allah(swt) not burdening a soul beyond his/her capability. So if a woman dislikes husband's appearance and the reason is that she cannot be intimate then she can demand Khula. And husband may ask for return of Mahr.

    But many times, this "capability" thing is artificial. Its not that wife is not being able to be intimate with husband. Its her Nafs that she will not tolerate another woman in life. If she has that nature then better write that in contract. If its not written in the contract then there is a big danger that if she later asks for the divorce then she falls under this hadith of Tirimdhi.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by aynina View Post
    Yea i know that but i mean never make one of them feel underapreciated
    He has to be totally equal in treatment. What lies deep inside his heart is not under his control. Prophet(sa) also said "Oh Allah dont ask for me whats not under my control." And it was well known to his(sa) wives that he loved Ayesha(ra) more.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by savo234 View Post
    So thats why if a husband is totally just and the polygamy clause was not in the contract then technically a woman asking for divorce will be under this hadith. The other issue that Gingerbeardman mentioned is Allah(swt) not burdening a soul beyond his/her capability. So if a woman dislikes husband's appearance and the reason is that she cannot be intimate then she can demand Khula. And husband may ask for return of Mahr..
    BarakaAllah fik.
    Even if there is a clause, still he can change his mind later?

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayman2 View Post
    BarakaAllah fik.
    Even if there is a clause, still he can change his mind later?
    By clause we mean not a promise that " I ll never marry second." By clause I mean " If I do this the yoj have right of divorce."

    Scholars say that in this case if he changes his mind. Then the woman gets the option to either still compromise or has the right of divorce. The clause benefits her because she ll not.

    1. Have to go through potentially longer Khula process.
    2. She ll not be sinning under the hadith of tirimdhi by asking for divorce because it was part of contract.

    Withoit this condition in contract and valid reason. She has risk of 1 and 2.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Jenicca View Post
    Be careful with your words, they go back in to world and come and hit you right back in the face!

    What kind of things needs to be considered in a polygamous marriage?
    It's simple. A man needs to be kind to his wives and have a lot of money. Polygamy should be left to rich men. Most men should stick with one wife and plan for their future. It takes a lot to raise multiple families. It is easier to do back home than in the west. Men must be able to provide separate accommodation for each wife. Also, you must also be able to afford to educate all your children. With money, it's easier to please everyone. Most men have no business with polygamy. They are just in denial. It's better to stick to one wife & make one family. It should be done only by those men who have above average income. You are not supposed to cram your families into one house or live off the state. We only need a small percentage of wealthy men to practice polygamy in order to solve the problem of spinsterhood.

    Many men get excited about the idea of having multiple women, but they don't take into account the RESPONSIBILITY that comes with having multiple wives & children.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by myeverything View Post
    We are looking for women volunteers who would be willing to help us field test our fairness among wives.:
    It's just a jk that has lots of truth in it.


    The truth is:

    And you will never be able to be equal [in feeling] between wives, even if you should strive [to do so]. So do not incline completely [toward one] and leave another hanging. And if you amend [your affairs] and fear Allah - then indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.
    An-Nisa' - سورة النساء 4:129


    I have nothing against polygamy it's part of our great religion but It's not mandatory. Just wanted to show that there will be always a favorite wife.

    So yeah May Allah help all Muslims.
    The message in this verse is simple. That its perhaps impossible to be exactly equal in feeling. Prophet(sa) was not like that even. He felt more for Ayesha(ra). So women who demand today that men feel exactly same are not being realistic. They should feel for everyone thats above a decent threshold. But full equality is perhaps not possible. What Allah(swt) is asking is that if there is such a feeling over which a man has no control over then he is not asked for it. But if he acts on that feeling in such a manner that the treatment is unjust and biased towards one then its a sin. In terms of treatment, man has to be equal and he has control over that and he will be asked about it.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by muslimahc View Post
    It's simple. A man needs to be kind to his wives and have a lot of money. Polygamy should be left to rich men. Most men should stick with one wife and plan for their future. It takes a lot to raise multiple families. It is easier to do back home than in the west. Men must be able to provide separate accommodation for each wife. Also, you must also be able to afford to educate all your children. With money, it's easier to please everyone. Most men have no business with polygamy. They are just in denial. It's better to stick to one wife & make one family. It should be done only by those men who have above average income. You are not supposed to cram your families into one house or live off the state. We only need a small percentage of wealthy men to practice polygamy in order to solve the problem of spinsterhood.

    Many men get excited about the idea of having multiple women, but they don't take into account the RESPONSIBILITY that comes with having multiple wives & children.
    The only requirement is capability and justice. Being rich is not. How much rich was our Prophet(sa) ?

    For any man there will always be capacity to afford two poor women who dont expect same standard of living and divide his salary into them and make them happy. He can have two smaller apartments lets say. Ofcourse at the end of the day, if polygamy is practiced freely then only the most capable, just people should get the opportunity. The society will regulate itself. We as men dont need to regulate ourselves. if one of us thinks he can do justice and another woman agrees to marry him then fair enough. If he is'nt able then why should a second woman agree in marrying him in the first place. Allah made men seekers not selectors. Let them seek if they think they got the ability and justice. If a woman feels he does'nt then dont agree to be his second wife. Its plan and simple.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by muslimahc View Post
    Most men have no business with polygamy. They are just in denial. It's better to stick to one wife & make one family. It should be done only by those men who have above average income. You are not supposed to cram your families into one house or live off the state. We only need a small percentage of wealthy men to practice polygamy in order to solve the problem of spinsterhood.
    This time I agree with you. It is not very common.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by savo234 View Post
    The only requirement is capability and justice. Being rich is not. How much rich was our Prophet(sa) ?
    Not rich, but enough money to support 2 families or more.
    At the time of the Prophet SAW, a tent in the desert is a decent house, you could easily provide separate housing for multiple wives.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayman2 View Post
    Not rich, but enough money to support 2 families or more.
    At the time of the Prophet SAW, a tent in the desert is a decent house, you could easily provide separate housing for multiple wives.
    Brother the thing is that. Let this be regulated by women. Not men. Its also possible for example that a man is very handsome and he supports one wife. And another rich woman wants to marry him and tells him "I ll not ask you for money". As I said before, men are seekers. Its the job of the women to regulate. A woman and her guardian has to think before entering into a polygamous relationship if its worth it. It will automatically regulate itself.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by savo234 View Post
    Brother the thing is that. Let this be regulated by women. Not men. Its also possible for example that a man is very handsome and he supports one wife. And another rich woman wants to marry him and tells him "I ll not ask you for money". As I said before, men are seekers. Its the job of the women to regulate. A woman and her guardian has to think before entering into a polygamous relationship if its worth it. It will automatically regulate itself.
    Yes, you are right. This scenario is also acceptable.
    What I meant is that some men, even poor, are looking for a second wife without even being able to provide her with the basics.
    I think he may find a woman that can accept the situation, if she will be living in the same flat as the 1st, it is unfair to the 1st one.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayman2 View Post
    Yes, you are right. This scenario is also acceptable.
    What I meant is that some men, even poor, are looking for a second wife without even being able to provide her with the basics.
    I think he may find a woman that can accept the situation, if she will be living in the same flat as the 1st, it is unfair to the 1st one.
    its important that the basic right of the first one is not violated. In addition to the second one agreeing to marriage. If first one herself compromises then that is another thing.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by savo234 View Post
    The only requirement is capability and justice. Being rich is not. How much rich was our Prophet(sa) ?

    For any man there will always be capacity to afford two poor women who dont expect same standard of living and divide his salary into them and make them happy. He can have two smaller apartments lets say. Ofcourse at the end of the day, if polygamy is practiced freely then only the most capable, just people should get the opportunity. The society will regulate itself. We as men dont need to regulate ourselves. if one of us thinks he can do justice and another woman agrees to marry him then fair enough. If he is'nt able then why should a second woman agree in marrying him in the first place. Allah made men seekers not selectors. Let them seek if they think they got the ability and justice. If a woman feels he does'nt then dont agree to be his second wife. Its plan and simple.
    Two poor women? Why not marry one poor woman & bring her out of poverty? Why have women live in poverty so you can afford polygamy? That's selfish. I know many men from my country who marry women they can't afford & the cycle of poverty repeats. The children don't get educated & sometimes they give the children to other people to raise when they can't afford to feed them all.
    Therefore remember Me, I will remember you, And be thankful to Me, and do not be ungrateful to Me." [Qur'an 2:152]
    Behold in the Remembrance of Allah do hearts find satisfaction."
    [Al Quran 13:28]
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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by muslimahc View Post
    Two poor women? Why not marry one poor woman & bring her out of poverty? Why have women live in poverty so you can afford polygamy? That's selfish. I know many men from my country who marry women they can't afford & the cycle of poverty repeats. The children don't get educated & sometimes they give the children to other people to raise when they can't afford to feed them all.
    So you misunderstood. If he earns 4K Dollars per month. Then it could just enough for a woman. And it could be more than enough for 2 women as well. It depends upon the standard of living of the woman in question.

    Women dont have to live in poverty. Dont be emotional. A man can either choose 1 rich woman for whom his pay is just enough. He can also choose woman from such a class from where his pay is more than enough.

    So there is no objective standard to measure how much is enough for a man to qualify for polygamy. The simpler thing to do is for a woman to see his pay check before entering into a polygamous relationship with a man. Its really simple. It may not be enough for woman but be enough for another woman. It depends upon situation.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by savo234 View Post
    So you misunderstood. If he earns 4K Dollars per month. Then it could just enough for a woman. And it could be more than enough for 2 women as well. It depends upon the standard of living of the woman in question.

    Women dont have to live in poverty. Dont be emotional. A man can either choose 1 rich woman for whom his pay is just enough. He can also choose woman from such a class from where his pay is more than enough.

    So there is no objective standard to measure how much is enough for a man to qualify for polygamy. The simpler thing to do is for a woman to see his pay check before entering into a polygamous relationship with a man. Its really simple. It may not be enough for woman but be enough for another woman. It depends upon situation.
    Ah classic. Some brothers love to throw around the word emotional when it comes to this polygamy topic. Many brothers just don't want to hear the truth that polygamy is not so simple. Focus on providing for one family first. Why spread your finances thin among multiple women? 2k is not enough for one family. In a third world country though it is more than enough,however. How many people in the third world make that much a month? Also, it's not just the women you have to take care of, but any possible children as well. You have to consider their FUTURE & education as well. Don't mind me though, there are sisters with lower standards.
    Therefore remember Me, I will remember you, And be thankful to Me, and do not be ungrateful to Me." [Qur'an 2:152]
    Behold in the Remembrance of Allah do hearts find satisfaction."
    [Al Quran 13:28]
    ]

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by muslimahc View Post
    2k is not enough for one family. In a third world country though it is more than enough,however.
    That is the most important invariant that I made use of for my own marriage. After discovering in 2005 that the internet started being available even in relatively poor countries, I reorganized my professional life so that I could live there. It took me three years to finally pull it off, but it has worked ever since. Initially, I lost half my yearly income by doing that, but after years of adjusting and improving my approach, it is now several times higher than when I lived in the West. It is really a question of doing dua, i.e. supplication to our beloved Master, for inspiration on how to achieve it. If you really want it, and the thing that you want is permissible, our Master will slowly but unstoppably make it materialize into this world. Ask and you shall be given.

    Charity, i.e. zakaat is a commendable principle, but its operation is much weaker than the primary financial stream that pretty much automatically goes from men to women, while excessive concentration of wealth is increasingly a serious social issue. Women sitting on a financial windfall will seek to help their less fortunate relatives. Therefore, polygamy allows us make use of the primary financial stream between men and women to redistribute income in a natural and permissible way. In my opinion, stamping out polygamy will only further exacerbate existing social problems. Therefore, I believe that polygamy, when financially feasible, should rather be encouraged.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by savo234 View Post
    The only requirement is capability and justice. Being rich is not. How much rich was our Prophet(sa) ?

    For any man there will always be capacity to afford two poor women who dont expect same standard of living and divide his salary into them and make them happy. He can have two smaller apartments lets say. Ofcourse at the end of the day, if polygamy is practiced freely then only the most capable, just people should get the opportunity. The society will regulate itself. We as men dont need to regulate ourselves. if one of us thinks he can do justice and another woman agrees to marry him then fair enough. If he is'nt able then why should a second woman agree in marrying him in the first place. Allah made men seekers not selectors. Let them seek if they think they got the ability and justice. If a woman feels he does'nt then dont agree to be his second wife. Its plan and simple.
    It used to be the practice of some of the salaf that when they were in need of wealth they would marry again, because of what Allah states in the Quran:

    And marry the unmarried among you and the righteous among your male slaves and female slaves. If they should be poor, Allah will enrich them from His bounty, and Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.
    Quran translation, surah an-Nur, 24:32

    The problem is too many men use this as an excuse, when they don't really have much intention of providing for their wives.

    I would disagree on men needing to regulate themselves, yes we do. Because if we don't we're capable of big injustices, so we have to check ourselves and check each other when we make mistakes. If someone unsuitable is wanting to go into polygamy, they should be told so and if someone suitable for polygamy is holding back they should be told so also though perhaps in more gentle terms.

    https://gingerbeardmansite.wordpress...gamy-catch-22/

    Finally bringing up something you said earlier in the thread,

    Men have the right to divorce originally so they are not bound by a reason.
    From a point of view of their rights, this is correct but a man could still be a dhalim for divorcing with no valid cause and be accountable before Allah.

    We are told to keep our wives in kindness, and when we divorce them to divorce them in kindness, not just marry and dump when something better comes along, or we get tired of them, or they burn the rotis one too many times... the last was actually used by a jahil in Leicester who divorced his wife.

    Anyway, sure you meant just from a point of view of his rights in the Shariah, but thought it was worth elaborating on.
    FOLLOW THE NEW BLOG - GINGERBEARDMAN - Muslim, father, husband, writer, defender of ginger rights!

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayman2 View Post
    BarakaAllah fik.
    Even if there is a clause, still he can change his mind later?
    Quote Originally Posted by muslimahc View Post
    Ah classic. Some brothers love to throw around the word emotional when it comes to this polygamy topic. Many brothers just don't want to hear the truth that polygamy is not so simple. Focus on providing for one family first. Why spread your finances thin among multiple women? 2k is not enough for one family. In a third world country though it is more than enough,however. How many people in the third world make that much a month? Also, it's not just the women you have to take care of, but any possible children as well. You have to consider their FUTURE & education as well. Don't mind me though, there are sisters with lower standards.
    You obviously did not get the point of the post. I am saying is there an objective standard that if a man has this much earning then he qualifies for polygamy and not... If lets say he is earning 300 dollars and living in a village with a mud house in third world country. He may support 2 women easily with kids.

    World does not have people of one category. Or does it ?

    So his first wife and second one coming have to decide if the finances are enough. If not then why should the second one agree to marry him ? Why shouldnt she think about her future and future of kids ?

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoic Believer View Post
    I'd be wary if my wives were best friends. They could plot against you lol.
    my ustaad would say to marry 3 and never 2 kuz 2 would gang up on you and blackmail you but the 3rd one will see the opportunity to get closer to you and will always take your side.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayman2 View Post
    BarakaAllah fik.
    Even if there is a clause, still he can change his mind later?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gingerbeardman View Post
    It used to be the practice of some of the salaf that when they were in need of wealth they would marry again, because of what Allah states in the Quran:

    And marry the unmarried among you and the righteous among your male slaves and female slaves. If they should be poor, Allah will enrich them from His bounty, and Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.
    Quran translation, surah an-Nur, 24:32

    The problem is too many men use this as an excuse, when they don't really have much intention of providing for their wives.

    I would disagree on men needing to regulate themselves, yes we do. Because if we don't we're capable of big injustices, so we have to check ourselves and check each other when we make mistakes. If someone unsuitable is wanting to go into polygamy, they should be told so and if someone suitable for polygamy is holding back they should be told so also though perhaps in more gentle terms.

    https://gingerbeardmansite.wordpress...gamy-catch-22/

    Finally bringing up something you said earlier in the thread,



    From a point of view of their rights, this is correct but a man could still be a dhalim for divorcing with no valid cause and be accountable before Allah.

    We are told to keep our wives in kindness, and when we divorce them to divorce them in kindness, not just marry and dump when something better comes along, or we get tired of them, or they burn the rotis one too many times... the last was actually used by a jahil in Leicester who divorced his wife.

    Anyway, sure you meant just from a point of view of his rights in the Shariah, but thought it was worth elaborating on.
    Its obviously wrong to divorce without a reason from the man's side. But your view that he is accountable before Allah(swt) has no Daleel... Its good to keep woman and take care of her ofcourse but give me any Daleel about it being a sin if he divorces without a valid reason. I gave a hadith in case of women.

    Now the thing is that a man cant really do it easily because the kids are his responsibility even after divorce and he gives Mahr. And also feelings wise, its not easy. But going by law, there is no Daleel for your statement.

    And if something better comes along and he wants to divorce then Allah(swt) encourages that man keeps her and woman may give one or two of her rights if for her, divorce is more damaging option. But again no indication of a "sin".

    "And if a woman fears from her husband contempt or evasion, there is no sin upon them if they make terms of settlement between them - and settlement is best. And present in [human] souls is stinginess. But if you do good and fear Allah - then indeed Allah is ever, with what you do, Acquainted"

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by savo234 View Post
    Its obviously wrong to divorce without a reason from the man's side. But your view that he is accountable before Allah(swt) has no Daleel... Its good to keep woman and take care of her ofcourse but give me any Daleel about it being a sin if he divorces without a valid reason. I gave a hadith in case of women.
    Without a reason? Unless the man is fool, I don't see how.
    There is always a reason, the question was wethere there is a list of valid reason or not.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by babadods View Post
    my ustaad would say to marry 3 and never 2 kuz 2 would gang up on you and blackmail you but the 3rd one will see the opportunity to get closer to you and will always take your side.
    Interesting and makes sense

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by babadods View Post
    my ustaad would say to marry 3 and never 2 kuz 2 would gang up on you and blackmail you but the 3rd one will see the opportunity to get closer to you and will always take your side.
    I know a real story of a man who have married 2 wives. Obviously, the wives didn't used to visit or talk to each other (as in most of the cases), and one day, he decided to take a 3rd one, and guess what happen? the wives became suddenly closed and decided to do what ever possible to prevent him from taking another one.

    Needless to tell that the plan was a complete sucess.
    Last edited by Ayman2; 18-07-17 at 10:24 AM.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by pronorah View Post
    That is the most important invariant that I made use of for my own marriage. After discovering in 2005 that the internet started being available even in relatively poor countries, I reorganized my professional life so that I could live there. It took me three years to finally pull it off, but it has worked ever since. Initially, I lost half my yearly income by doing that, but after years of adjusting and improving my approach, it is now several times higher than when I lived in the West. It is really a question of doing dua, i.e. supplication to our beloved Master, for inspiration on how to achieve it. If you really want it, and the thing that you want is permissible, our Master will slowly but unstoppably make it materialize into this world. Ask and you shall be given.

    Charity, i.e. zakaat is a commendable principle, but its operation is much weaker than the primary financial stream that pretty much automatically goes from men to women, while excessive concentration of wealth is increasingly a serious social issue. Women sitting on a financial windfall will seek to help their less fortunate relatives. Therefore, polygamy allows us make use of the primary financial stream between men and women to redistribute income in a natural and permissible way. In my opinion, stamping out polygamy will only further exacerbate existing social problems. Therefore, I believe that polygamy, when financially feasible, should rather be encouraged.
    Mashallah it's great you were able to go back home & make a living there. Life is better back home. The only problem is poverty. I agree polygamy can be good like you said if it is feasible financially. You can provide for a sister financially as well as her relatives. It's also important for women to be educated as well so they can also be able to have their own income. Another good way of giving zakat to a woman is to provide her an education. Though it's great for women to have the opportunity to stay home & take care of kids, it's also important to have some women working in certain fields such as teaching, medicine, & nursing where they can take care of & work with other women. Many women would not be comfortable with a male doctor examining them for example.

    I can see how polygamy can be charity for a woman, but the brother also has something to gain in return. You can give zakat to a family without marrying one of their daughters. I have nothing against polygamy when practiced right, but it's funny all the creative excuses brothers love to come up with to justify it. However, I understand your point that it's a way for men to provide for multiple women who may otherwise not have another way to provide for their family. However, this leads to another problem in 3rd world countries which is dependency syndrome. A woman's entire family should not be depending on her husband. People need to get themselves educated so they can have the skills to develop their country & obtain an income, not depend on their sister's "rich" husband abroad. This kind of mentality makes people lazy to accomplish anything for themselves.
    Last edited by muslimahc; 18-07-17 at 11:39 AM.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by savo234 View Post
    You obviously did not get the point of the post. I am saying is there an objective standard that if a man has this much earning then he qualifies for polygamy and not... If lets say he is earning 300 dollars and living in a village with a mud house in third world country. He may support 2 women easily with kids.

    World does not have people of one category. Or does it ?

    So his first wife and second one coming have to decide if the finances are enough. If not then why should the second one agree to marry him ? Why shouldnt she think about her future and future of kids ?
    I didn't give a specific amount. Also, some women agree to be second wives out of desperation. They end up being unhappy when they get into the situation & the man cannot handle all the responsibilities. Why do you assume the second wife is making the right choice? Sometimes they don't even have a choice.

    I've seen women marry unemployed or underemployed men & go on welfare. Also sometimes the brother deceived the sister. She is unaware of his real situation until she already gets into the marriage.

    If some sister's are okay with living in mud huts then good for them. However, I know many sister's in 3rd world countries do want a better life than that. They may just accept it if there is no hope for anything better. With one wife you can make do with the little you have & provide a decent life for your wife & children & EDUCATE them. If you have one wife and say 5 kids, that's plenty of responsibility. Why add more? If you plan on living a poor life & not educate your kids, then polygamy can be affordable.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by muslimahc View Post
    I didn't give a specific amount. Also, some women agree to be second wives out of desperation. They end up being unhappy when they get into the situation & the man cannot handle all the responsibilities. Why do you assume the second wife is making the right choice? Sometimes they don't even have a choice.

    I've seen women marry unemployed or underemployed men & go on welfare. Also sometimes the brother deceived the sister. She is unaware of his real situation until she already gets into the marriage.

    If some sister's are okay with living in mud huts then good for them. However, I know many sister's in 3rd world countries do want a better life than that. They may just accept it if there is no hope for anything better. With one wife you can make do with the little you have & provide a decent life for your wife & children & EDUCATE them. If you have one wife and say 5 kids, that's plenty of responsibility. Why add more? If you plan on living a poor life & not educate your kids, then polygamy can be affordable.
    So sister, if they dont have a choice then the marriage is the only option. If a woman feels burden, fitnah or something and she does not have a better option then she can even concede her basic rights like right of equal time. Thats what I am saying, life is not always fair. There are women who are divorced at lets say 30s or due to some situation, they dont get any good options for marriage. So what should such women do with their emotional and physical desires. And their need for basic support if they dont want to earn ?

    Deception is 100% wrong. What I am saying is that if there is a brother whose income is known. And a certain sister thinks he is the best option and agrees to marry him then how can we judge that since brother did'nt earn 10 thousand dollars a month then he is not capable enough.

    There is no objective standard. I am all in for men also thinking wisely if they really can fulfill responsibility but this threshold of certain amount of richness makes no sense to me.

    And this philosophy that the lesser people in family, the lesser the "burden" and the more is the welfare. Then this also applies to number of children with one wife. We know in Quran that Allah(swt) discourages this philosophy that "Dont kill your children for fear of poverty". Men are supposed to show that they have decent lifestyle and women are supposed to judge and choose. If they have better options then go for them. Dont agree to be second wife if you can settle with a decent monogamous marriage.

    And if a woman has "no better option" then let her marry whoever she wants for her needs.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayman2 View Post
    Without a reason? Unless the man is fool, I don't see how.
    There is always a reason, the question was wethere there is a list of valid reason or not.
    That what I am saying. If it was a valid reason then its better. but if there was an invalid reason then its wrong but there is no Daleel to suggest that its a sin. I may be wrong though. If I read a Daleel then I ll change my view.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by savo234 View Post
    So sister, if they dont have a choice then the marriage is the only option. If a woman feels burden, fitnah or something and she does not have a better option then she can even concede her basic rights like right of equal time. Thats what I am saying, life is not always fair. There are women who are divorced at lets say 30s or due to some situation, they dont get any good options for marriage. So what should such women do with their emotional and physical desires. And their need for basic support if they dont want to earn ?

    Deception is 100% wrong. What I am saying is that if there is a brother whose income is known. And a certain sister thinks he is the best option and agrees to marry him then how can we judge that since brother did'nt earn 10 thousand dollars a month then he is not capable enough.

    There is no objective standard. I am all in for men also thinking wisely if they really can fulfill responsibility but this threshold of certain amount of richness makes no sense to me.

    And this philosophy that the lesser people in family, the lesser the "burden" and the more is the welfare. Then this also applies to number of children with one wife. We know in Quran that Allah(swt) discourages this philosophy that "Dont kill your children for fear of poverty". Men are supposed to show that they have decent lifestyle and women are supposed to judge and choose. If they have better options then go for them. Dont agree to be second wife if you can settle with a decent monogamous marriage.

    And if a woman has "no better option" then let her marry whoever she wants for her needs.
    Brother, when I said sometimes they have no choice, I meant that sometimes sisters are forced into these marriages. Anyway, I agree polygamy is a good option for divorcees. However, if a sister chooses to marry a brother who doesn't have enough income for two wives, that will take away from the man's first wife & children. Just bc some sisters are finding difficulty getting husbands doesn't mean they should marry a men who cannot afford to take care of them. If she has her own income & chooses to forgo this right then that's ok.

    Also life may not be fair, that's has nothing to do with the conditions outlined in the Quran for polygamy. That just means people have different blessings in life. That doesn't mean a man shouldn't be fair between his wives. A polygamous husband is MANDATED by ALLAH (swt) to be FAIR between the wives. I'm not talking about love, but TREATMENT. This includes providing for ALL the wives financially. You are trying to make excuses for men practicing polygamy when they cannot. It's hard for men to accept when they cannot do polygamy so they come up with excuses to justify it.

    Btw, a man having many children with one woman is still much more affordable than many children with multiple women. You also have to factor in the dependent in laws.
    Last edited by muslimahc; 18-07-17 at 12:22 PM.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by muslimahc View Post
    Brother, when I said sometimes they have no choice, I meant that sometimes sisters are forced into these marriages. Anyway, I agree polygamy is a good option for divorcees. However, if a sister chooses to marry a brother who doesn't have enough income for two wives, that will take away from the man's first wife & children. Just bc some sisters are finding difficulty getting husbands doesn't mean they should marry a men who cannot afford to take care of them. If she has her own income & chooses to forgo this right then that's ok.

    Also life may not be fair, that's has nothing to do with the conditions outlined in the Quran for polygamy. That just means people have different blessings in life. That doesn't mean a man shouldn't be fair between his wives. A polygamous husband is MANDATED by ALLAH (swt) to be FAIR between the wives. I'm not talking about love, but TREATMENT. This includes providing for ALL the wives financially. You are trying to make excuses for men practicing polygamy when they cannot. It's hard for men to accept when they cannot do polygamy so they come up with excuses to justify it.

    Btw, a man having many children with one woman is still much more affordable than many children with multiple women. You also have to factor in the dependent in laws.
    Okay. Just me last post to end. Forced marriage is illegal whether its monogamous or in polygamy. Secondly a man is for sure obligated to be fair. But I only disagreed with richness condition that you put which is not in Shariah. There is no threshold level of wealth.

    A woman from a background for whom 300 dollars is enough for a family. A man with 1000 dollar income in a third world can support 2 such families by dividing income into 2. Likewise a man with 5000 dollar income in a first world country marrying a woman whose background is rich will barely keep her happy.

    I just disagree with putting conditions that are not in Islam. Thats all how conversation started.

    There will always be men able to practice polygamy. All they need is taqwa. If they were not able then it makes no sense for Allah to send down a ruling which cannot be practiced.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by savo234 View Post
    Okay. Just me last post to end. Forced marriage is illegal whether its monogamous or in polygamy. Secondly a man is for sure obligated to be fair. But I only disagreed with richness condition that you put which is not in Shariah. There is no threshold level of wealth.

    A woman from a background for whom 300 dollars is enough for a family. A man with 1000 dollar income in a third world can support 2 such families by dividing income into 2. Likewise a man with 5000 dollar income in a first world country marrying a woman whose background is rich will barely keep her happy.

    I just disagree with putting conditions that are not in Islam. Thats all how conversation started.

    There will always be men able to practice polygamy. All they need is taqwa. If they were not able then it makes no sense for Allah to send down a ruling which cannot be practiced.
    I never said there is a specific amount a husband has to make to practice polygamy.

    I never said no men can practice polygamy. Don't worry, no one can take away your right to practice polygamy. If that's what you want, may Allah make it easy for you.
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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by muslimahc View Post
    Mashallah it's great you were able to go back home & make a living there. Life is better back home. The only problem is poverty.
    I am not at home here. I have no ancestry who has ever lived here. It is just a relatively poor country with easy visa requirements. Any other poor country would do too. I do not want to live in countries where there is too much money floating around, because that would devalue my own.

    Quote Originally Posted by muslimahc View Post
    It's also important for women to be educated as well so they can also be able to have their own income.
    They do not really educate these girls at school. They indoctrinate them into believing all kinds of questionable ideological conjectures. It amounts to memorizing the Manifesto of the Soviet Communist Party. Trusting your children to a state school, or to another subsidized imbecilization factory, reflects a false pagan belief in the true intentions of the local politicians who control these schools. Furthermore, fewer than 5% of the university graduates can find a desperately-wanted but still poorly-paid job in this country.

    Quote Originally Posted by muslimahc View Post
    You can give zakat to a family without marrying one of their daughters.
    In theory, yes. In practice, there will obviously never be enough zakat to help all the poor. And maybe I really like their daughter!

    Quote Originally Posted by muslimahc View Post
    it's funny all the creative excuses brothers love to come up with to justify it.
    Why would anybody need an excuse? If the other side agrees, just do it, without excusing yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by muslimahc View Post
    However, this leads to another problem in 3rd world countries which is dependency syndrome. A woman's entire family should not be depending on her husband.
    Well, it is obviously not their only source of income. I did not run into them while they were starving, really. Still, for the peanuts that I spend on these subsidies, why would I feel bothered? Of course, my wife does not really know that -- in the greater light of things -- these subsidies are just peanuts. Just to give you an idea, the going monthly salary for bank staff -- pretty much the best paid employees here -- is just a few hundred dollars. These guys are the king of the village over here, and proudly drive around in uniform, in the colours of the bank, because, hey, they've really made it!

    Quote Originally Posted by muslimahc View Post
    People need to get themselves educated...
    The overly proud local bank staffers that I mentioned before, have to spend five years or more in government-funded university-level imbecilization factories before they can apply for their jobs. Most of the candidates will not get hired, though. If you say to any of them that "compound interest rests of a first-order geometric recurrence relation", you should look at the expression in their impossibly dumb eyes. They will just keep staring at you. The few successful candidates who manage to get hired, will be trained in verifying paper customer bank transfer forms, for missing or wrong information. A mobile phone app is much more efficient than they are, but ok, we should not replace everybody at the same time by computers, because that will cause too many social problems, I guess. This is just to tell you that these staffers may only make a few hundred dollars per month, but that their work is not even worth the peanuts that they are getting paid. So, given this best-case scenario, do I really need my wife to spend the whole day working for less money than I spend on coffees? I have just asked her right now, and she has predictably said that she is not interested.
    Last edited by pronorah; 18-07-17 at 02:40 PM.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    pronorah, from which country are you? I mean home country

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by Ayman2 View Post
    pronorah, from which country are you? I mean home country
    I have got parents from two different continents, and I live on a third one, amongst the notorious "Asiatic hordes". He he, they confusingly designate the Russians as such, and not the real Asians. Of course, I would never consider spending my days in an over-regulated place such as Russia. Furthermore, I would also not take the risk of trying to pick a Russian girl and to marry her. Even the Russians themselves no longer dare to do that. It is considered to be a form of suicidal behaviour. You could as well swipe someone from Tinder, and hope that it will still work out alright. So, which one of these three countries should I consider my "home country"? I do not think that I have a need for that kind of things. That kind of things only cost money. Seriously, they only want to suck you dry and tell you what to do. I should consider buying a paperwork passport from a place like Bermuda; after which I shall be considered a Bermudanesian islander, and write on my travel document: "X Ibn Y, Al Bermudanesi", humble servant of our Beloved Master, the Illustrious Allah.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by babadods View Post
    my ustaad would say to marry 3 and never 2 kuz 2 would gang up on you and blackmail you but the 3rd one will see the opportunity to get closer to you and will always take your side.
    Ugh. Too much drama.

    I think I'll wait till Jannah in shaa Allah.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by pronorah View Post
    I am not at home here. I have no ancestry who has ever lived here. It is just a relatively poor country with easy visa requirements. Any other poor country would do too. I do not want to live in countries where there is too much money floating around, because that would devalue my own.


    They do not really educate these girls at school. They indoctrinate them into believing all kinds of questionable ideological conjectures. It amounts to memorizing the Manifesto of the Soviet Communist Party. Trusting your children to a state school, or to another subsidized imbecilization factory, reflects a false pagan belief in the true intentions of the local politicians who control these schools. Furthermore, fewer than 5% of the university graduates can find a desperately-wanted but still poorly-paid job in this country.


    In theory, yes. In practice, there will obviously never be enough zakat to help all the poor. And maybe I really like their daughter!


    Why would anybody need an excuse? If the other side agrees, just do it, without excusing yourself.


    Well, it is obviously not their only source of income. I did not run into them while they were starving, really. Still, for the peanuts that I spend on these subsidies, why would I feel bothered? Of course, my wife does not really know that -- in the greater light of things -- these subsidies are just peanuts. Just to give you an idea, the going monthly salary for bank staff -- pretty much the best paid employees here -- is just a few hundred dollars. These guys are the king of the village over here, and proudly drive around in uniform, in the colours of the bank, because, hey, they've really made it!


    The overly proud local bank staffers that I mentioned before, have to spend five years or more in government-funded university-level imbecilization factories before they can apply for their jobs. Most of the candidates will not get hired, though. If you say to any of them that "compound interest rests of a first-order geometric recurrence relation", you should look at the expression in their impossibly dumb eyes. They will just keep staring at you. The few successful candidates who manage to get hired, will be trained in verifying paper customer bank transfer forms, for missing or wrong information. A mobile phone app is much more efficient than they are, but ok, we should not replace everybody at the same time by computers, because that will cause too many social problems, I guess. This is just to tell you that these staffers may only make a few hundred dollars per month, but that their work is not even worth the peanuts that they are getting paid. So, given this best-case scenario, do I really need my wife to spend the whole day working for less money than I spend on coffees? I have just asked her right now, and she has predictably said that she is not interested.
    So you went to a poor country to be able to practice polygamy? Do you have multiple wives? Whatever country you are in is in a bad state. Things such as polygamy do not help develop a country. Having a large uneducated population does not help a country move forward. Anyway, if you want to help a poor family in exchange for one of their daughters good for you. You are giving charity to them intention of getting something in return. Your real intention is getting a woman, not helping the family. It's easier to go to a poor country & give the family a little money & buy their daughter. I thank Allah, I'm living in a country where a man cannot "buy" me for peanuts. The girls in the west were too expensive & smart for you I see lol..it's easier to go to a poor country & be a big shot there. If you want to practice polygamy, it's a good idea for somebody like you.
    Last edited by muslimahc; 18-07-17 at 05:16 PM.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by muslimahc View Post
    So you went to a poor country to be able to practice polygamy? Do you have multiple wives? Whatever country you are in is in a bad state. Things such as polygamy do not help develop a country. Having a large uneducated population does not help a country move forward. Anyway, if you want to help a poor family in exchange for one of their daughters good for you. You are giving charity to them intention of getting something in return. Your real intention is getting a woman, not helping the family. It's easier to go to a poor country & give the family a little money & buy their daughter. I thank Allah, I'm living in a country where a man cannot "buy" me for peanuts. The girls in the west were too expensive & smart for you I see lol..it's easier to go to a poor country & be a big shot there. If you want to practice polygamy, it's a good idea for somebody like you.
    In every marriage there is something available for either party. That's generally the way it works.

    Western sisters too expensive and smart?!? Behave yourself. We all know western sisters are keen, highly keen on polygamy...well once they are divorced that is.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by zi-zizou View Post
    We all know western sisters are keen, highly keen on polygamy...well once they are divorced that is.
    Or before it is too late to have children.
    It is just a question of circumstances

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by zi-zizou View Post
    In every marriage there is something available for either party. That's generally the way it works.

    Western sisters too expensive and smart?!? Behave yourself. We all know western sisters are keen, highly keen on polygamy...well once they are divorced that is.
    Yeah sisters who did not want their husband to marry a second wife while they were the first wife now don't mind being a second wife. I've called out the double standards of such sisters before on previous threads & some sisters took offense as usual.

    I've never been married, but I would be a second wife to a rich man. Polygamy can work anywhere. It's just more expensive in certain places than others depending on the standard of living. If I am blessed with a wealthy man, I won't mind sharing him.

    Anyway, the brother was trying to make it seem as if he was doing "charity" when it's really just about him going to a cheaper place to buy a wife.

    Btw, I will try to be on my best behavior.
    Last edited by muslimahc; 18-07-17 at 08:10 PM.

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by muslimahc View Post
    Yeah sisters who did not want their husband to marry a second wife while they were the first wife now don't mind being a second wife. I've called out the double standards of such sisters before on previous threads & some sisters took offense as usual.

    I've never been married, but I would be a second wife to a rich man. Polygamy can work anywhere. It's just more expensive in certain places than others depending on the standard of living. If I am blessed with a wealthy man, I won't mind sharing him.

    Btw, I will try to be on my best behavior.
    How rich is rich? Does it have a £ figure?

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    Re: Co - Wife.....

    Quote Originally Posted by muslimahc View Post
    Yeah sisters who did not want their husband to marry a second wife while they were the first wife now don't being a second wife. I've called out the double standards of such sister's before on previous threads & some sisters took offense as usual.

    I've never been married, but I would be a second wife to a rich man. Polygamy can work anywhere. It's just more expensive in certain places than others depending on the standard of living. If I am blessed with a wealthy man, I won't mind sharing him.

    Btw, I will try to be on my best behavior.
    It is not double standard, people change their mind with age and situation.
    Of course, if they were able to find a single man with the best behavior and job (and a full bank account as you said), why choose to be the 2nd one?
    It does not make sense unless there is a personal reason to do so (like she does not want to be a full-time wife because she has a career, or it is too much headache to be with a man 24/7).

 

 

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