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  1. #1
    Senior Member true and just's Avatar
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    Democracy in Islam

    People keep on going on about democracy.

    How Israel is the only democracy in the middle east.

    If you ask me, democracy does not work.

    It's like going to a restaurant and being told that you can eat whatever you want as long as it is Chicken or a Cheese Burger.

  2. #81

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Democracy is a pathetic concept, a ruse and a lie.

  3. #82
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by true and just View Post
    Yes controlled by the Government but it is still a private institution with share holders. It lends money to the government and to other banks with interest.

    All money in circulation is owed to some one.
    Who owns shares in the Bank of England?

  4. #83
    Senior Member true and just's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Who owns shares in the Bank of England?
    Why don't you do some research and find out?

    Let me know when you they give you all the required information.

  5. #84
    Senior Member true and just's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Who owns shares in the Bank of England?
    Freedom of Information - disclosures
    Subject/Request Details: Questions about the Bank of England (shareholders, dividends paid, directors, member banks)

    Date Released: 6 November 2009

    Disclosure:

    'Does the Bank of England have shareholders? If the Bank does have shareholders who are they?'

    The Bank of England is the central bank of the whole of the UK and was established as a corporate body by Royal Charter under the Bank of England Act 1694. The Bank was nationalised on 1 March 1946, and gained operational independence to set interest rates in 1997. The Bank is a public sector institution wholly-owned by the government - the entire capital of the Bank is, in fact, held by the Treasury solicitor on behalf of HM Treasury.


    So, for almost 400 years the Bank was owned by the crown and is now Owned by HM Treasury. So who owns the Bank of England?!

  6. #85
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by true and just View Post
    Freedom of Information - disclosures
    Subject/Request Details: Questions about the Bank of England (shareholders, dividends paid, directors, member banks)

    Date Released: 6 November 2009

    Disclosure:

    'Does the Bank of England have shareholders? If the Bank does have shareholders who are they?'

    The Bank of England is the central bank of the whole of the UK and was established as a corporate body by Royal Charter under the Bank of England Act 1694. The Bank was nationalised on 1 March 1946, and gained operational independence to set interest rates in 1997. The Bank is a public sector institution wholly-owned by the government - the entire capital of the Bank is, in fact, held by the Treasury solicitor on behalf of HM Treasury.


    So, for almost 400 years the Bank was owned by the crown and is now Owned by HM Treasury. So who owns the Bank of England?!
    However, contrary to your claim above, it is not "a private institution with share holders" but entirely government-controlled..

  7. #86
    Senior Member true and just's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    However, contrary to your claim above, it is not "a private institution with share holders" but entirely government-controlled..
    Do you have to be spoon-fed everything?

    Who "Owns" the Government? And please don't say the people do, that is all just lies.

    Who ultimately benefits from this current system? Not you, nor I.

    When it all comes crashing down the people will have no one to blame but them selves.

    Your Leaders will just turn around and say "Hey, you VOTED for us"

  8. #87
    Odan
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by true and just View Post
    Do you have to be spoon-fed everything?

    Who "Owns" the Government? And please don't say the people do, that is all just lies.

    Who ultimately benefits from this current system? Not you, nor I.

    When it all comes crashing down the people will have no one to blame but them selves.

    Your Leaders will just turn around and say "Hey, you VOTED for us"
    Who do you believe "owns" (or owns) the government, then?

  9. #88

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    Correlation... causation... blah blah blah

    Funny, because that is probably why they're so happy.
    OK, it not like Saudi Arabia and some other very wealthy gulf countries don't engage in zina aka "maids" and access to many other haram things. But they don't seem to be happy. Your correlation is also wrong brother, those countries are happy because they have a high standard of living, not because of easy access to sin

  10. #89
    SUFI HANAFI
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by ZahinC View Post
    OK, it not like Saudi Arabia and some other very wealthy gulf countries don't engage in zina aka "maids" and access to many other haram things. But they don't seem to be happy. Your correlation is also wrong brother, those countries are happy because they have a high standard of living, not because of easy access to sin
    Easy access to sin is part of their standards.

  11. #90

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    Easy access to sin is part of their standards.
    I was just saying that other countries have plenty of access to sin, you could say that Russia has easy access or US or Thailand or Portugal but none of them make it on that list, the reason why that these countries are happy is because a majority of its citizens have a good standard of living

  12. #91
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by ZahinC View Post
    I was just saying that other countries have plenty of access to sin, you could say that Russia has easy access or US or Thailand or Portugal but none of them make it on that list, the reason why that these countries are happy is because a majority of its citizens have a good standard of living
    All those places are full of sin. How do you measure happiness? It's all opinion. Some of the happiest people I know would be classed as 'poor' and living in 'poverty'.

    Also, just because you're happy, it doesn't mean that you're right.

  13. #92
    striving to be sincere Abu Kamel's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam


    Quote Originally Posted by AishaGirl View Post
    Except democratic countries lead in health, medicine and overall public happiness. Your statement could not be more wrong.

    Happiest countries top 10:

    10: Sweden (Democratic)
    9: Australia (Democratic)
    8: New Zealand (Democratic)
    7: The Netherlands (Democratic)
    6: Canada (Democratic)
    5: Finland (Democratic)
    4: Norway (Democratic)
    3: Iceland (Democratic)
    2: Switzerland (Democratic)
    1: Denmark (Democratic)

    source http://www.nationalgeographic.com/tr...iest-countries

    Best healthcare top 10:

    10: Japan (Democratic)
    9: Austria (Democratic)
    8: Oman (Absolute Monarchy)
    7: Spain (Democratic)
    6: Singapore (Democratic)
    5: Malta (Democratic)
    4: Andorra (Democratic)
    3: San Marino (Democratic)
    2: Italy (Democratic)
    1: France (Democratic)

    source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...health_systems

    Freedom of politics top 10:

    10: New Zealand (Democratic)
    9: Iceland (Democratic)
    8: Denmark (Democratic)
    7: Finland (Democratic)
    6: Sweden (Democratic)
    5: Luxembourg (Democratic)
    4: Belgium (Democratic)
    3: Canada (Democratic)
    2: San Marino (Democratic)
    1: Norway (Democratic)

    Are you starting to notice a pattern yet? You say democracy has nothing to do with the overall happiness and health of a country when that clearly isnt true, you are just lying. There is 1 country in those lists which isnt democratic and they have very good healthcare. When will people realise that a country can only be as successful as its people... I am not advocating zina and drugs and a world of fitna but allow your citizens to speak their mind... allow them to drive for goodness sake, allow them to thrive and succeed. If your people are not happy, your country will fail. Its just that simple.

    While these surveys and lists may reflect some matter of truth, they do not reflect whether their ideologies are correct, or their way of life is right and good.

    Using an intellectual approach, the most accurate way to measure a society and it's ideology is to determine whether:

    1)the ideology (and subsequently the society which manifests it) is compatible with and harmoniously manages human nature and instinct, and

    2) whether that ideology is compatible and harmonious with the human intellect and reason.

    The society that implements these ideologies should reflect these.

    I think you are attempting to approach this by claiming causality results in "happiness".
    However, one must look at the actual ideology and the hard facts.

    What are the ideology and hard facts?

    There are other statistics that should be examined. For example, population density. Norway had a population density of 15 people per square mile (39 per square kilometers) in 2006, which places it between New Zealand and Oman. In contrast, Singapore had a population density of 18,645 per squ mile(48,290 per squ km). Bangladesh had a population density of 1,146 per squ mile ( 2968 per squ km). Can they be reasonably compared, 15 to 18,645?
    In comparison regarding statistics, when dealing with large numbers, "15" would be rounded down to 0, whereas 18,645 would be rounded up to 18650, or even 19,000. so 15 is unmentionable. As is 39. 0 population density.


    And population density does not reflect that populations gravitate around mega cities. Norway's main cities are Oslo (pop; 580,000), Bergen (pop 213,585), Trondheim (147,139), Stravangar (pop 121,610).

    In contrast, the world's largest megacities are:

    1. Tokyo: 37.8 million, (population density of 4,400 per square kilometer)
    2. Jakarta: 30.5 million, (pop density: 9,500 sq km)
    3. Delhi: 24.9 million (pop density: 12,100 squ km)
    4. Manila: 24.1 million (pop density: 15,300 squ km)
    5. Seoul: 23.48 million (pop density: 10,400 squ km)

    In fact, the first Western megacity to rank is New York city (20.6 million) and it is ranked 9th ( pop density of 1800 squ km). The first European megacity to rank is Moscow (pop 16.1 million) and it is ranked 15th (3500 squ km). All the vast majority of megacities of the world in the top 20 are Asian. None are from western Europe. None of the countries on the top ten happiness list contain a megacity.

    Doesn't the amount of living space correlate to "happiness" and health? If I had more living space, wouldn't I be happier? Or perhaps if one wanted to fabricate a narrative that suited one's ideological objective to show one's way of life is superior to all others, one could manipulate statistics and surveys to ignore hard facts like population density and land mass.


    If one looks at Norway's history, it has always been a monarchy. Yes, it is today a democracy, but it's a democracy based on a constitutional monarchy. And the monarchy has always been since the 800s ce. In it's early era, one will find it's political composition has consisted of local pagan monarchies unified under unitary pagan Viking monarchies, a united Norse pagan Viking monarchy began in the late 800s ce.
    Christianity became the religion of the Norwegian monarchy starting in the 900s ce. It joined with Denmark and Swedish monarchies to form unions.
    The Christian Norwegian monarchy led a Norwegian Crusade in the 1100s ce at which time they attacked and killed Muslims off the coast of Andalus (today's Portugal and southern Spain) and landed at Jabal Tur, Sicily, Constantinople, and landed and visited Al Quds, reinforcing the kafir Christian occupying Crusaders.

    One can likely find in modern Western culture reverence and acceptance of Norway as part of Europe and Western culture and civilization. So it has it heritage, it's history, it's longstanding ties are to the West.

    Putting that aside, let us examine Norway. On your lists, it is ranked first in political freedom and fourth in happiness worldwide.

    Norway is a "democratic" country, but it is a constitutional monarchy. 385,178 total squ kms of territory. Total population of 5,214,890 (2015) Population density of 15.5/km2 (40.1/sq mi) in 2015, ranking it 213th km2.
    Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
    " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

  14. #93
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by AishaGirl View Post
    Except democratic countries lead in health, medicine and overall public happiness. Your statement could not be more wrong.

    Happiest countries top 10:

    10: Sweden (Democratic)
    9: Australia (Democratic)
    8: New Zealand (Democratic)
    7: The Netherlands (Democratic)
    6: Canada (Democratic)
    5: Finland (Democratic)
    4: Norway (Democratic)
    3: Iceland (Democratic)
    2: Switzerland (Democratic)
    1: Denmark (Democratic)

    source http://www.nationalgeographic.com/tr...iest-countries

    Best healthcare top 10:

    10: Japan (Democratic)
    9: Austria (Democratic)
    8: Oman (Absolute Monarchy)
    7: Spain (Democratic)
    6: Singapore (Democratic)
    5: Malta (Democratic)
    4: Andorra (Democratic)
    3: San Marino (Democratic)
    2: Italy (Democratic)
    1: France (Democratic)

    source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...health_systems

    Freedom of politics top 10:

    10: New Zealand (Democratic)
    9: Iceland (Democratic)
    8: Denmark (Democratic)
    7: Finland (Democratic)
    6: Sweden (Democratic)
    5: Luxembourg (Democratic)
    4: Belgium (Democratic)
    3: Canada (Democratic)
    2: San Marino (Democratic)
    1: Norway (Democratic)

    Are you starting to notice a pattern yet? You say democracy has nothing to do with the overall happiness and health of a country when that clearly isnt true, you are just lying. There is 1 country in those lists which isnt democratic and they have very good healthcare. When will people realise that a country can only be as successful as its people... I am not advocating zina and drugs and a world of fitna but allow your citizens to speak their mind... allow them to drive for goodness sake, allow them to thrive and succeed. If your people are not happy, your country will fail. Its just that simple.
    Yet almost everyone in those countries will enter the hellfire, and remain therein for eternity...Is that success to you?

    Instead of asking why kafir countries are successful in some areas, why don't you ask why Muslim countries are failing and humiliated? Do you think we should imitate the kuffar?
    وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
    They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

  15. #94
    موحد Abd al-Rahman's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by ZahinC View Post
    OK, it not like Saudi Arabia and some other very wealthy gulf countries don't engage in zina aka "maids" and access to many other haram things. But they don't seem to be happy. Your correlation is also wrong brother, those countries are happy because they have a high standard of living, not because of easy access to sin
    May Allah punish you for this slander
    وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
    They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

  16. #95
    striving to be sincere Abu Kamel's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Examining the ideology of Norway, one will find that it's ideology is manifested through it's constitution which was initiated in 1814 ce.

    The Norwegian constitution was formed under the leadership of Danish prince Christian Frederik who led as viceroy of Norway based on the Danish Norwegian Union. Essentially, after the Napoleonic defeat at the battle of Leipzig in 1813/14, the prince started a movement of Norwegian independence from the Union and from the legacy of absolute monarchy. He did so by incorporating the liberal principles embodied in the Masonic movement and the American and French revolutions. So while the Norwegian assembly legalized and voted on the Norwegian constitution, it was under the political leadership of a Danish prince following Masonic principles and ideological movement written by a Norwegian: Christian Magnus Falsen, and a Dane: Johan Adler who was a devoted secretary to prince Christian.
    Christian Magnus Falsen was a Norwegian judge born in Christiania and deeply influenced by Thomas Jefferson and the American revolution. He graduated from University of Copenhagen, became a barrister/lawyer, was elected to the Norwegian Constiuent Assembly, co-authored the Norwegian constitution, and has since been called the "father of the Norwegian constitution".

    I have yet to see any official statement or admission, however I highly suspect that Falsen, the father of the Norwegian constitution, was a freemason. If not, he willingly adopted Masonic principles, affiliated himself with the Masonic movement ( as he was born and raised in Christiania, now Oslo, the location of the first and oldest Masonic lodge in Norway), and apparently modeled his life around Masonry.
    Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
    " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

  17. #96
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  18. #97
    striving to be sincere Abu Kamel's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Kamel View Post
    Examining the ideology of Norway, one will find that it's ideology is manifested through it's constitution which was initiated in 1814 ce.

    The Norwegian constitution was formed under the leadership of Danish prince Christian Frederik who led as viceroy of Norway based on the Danish Norwegian Union. Essentially, after the Napoleonic defeat at the battle of Leipzig in 1813/14, the prince started a movement of Norwegian independence from the Union and from the legacy of absolute monarchy. He did so by incorporating the liberal principles embodied in the Masonic movement and the American and French revolutions. So while the Norwegian assembly legalized and voted on the Norwegian constitution, it was under the political leadership of a Danish prince following Masonic principles and ideological movement written by a Norwegian: Christian Magnus Falsen, and a Dane: Johan Adler who was a devoted secretary to prince Christian.
    Christian Magnus Falsen was a Norwegian judge born in Christiania and deeply influenced by Thomas Jefferson and the American revolution. He graduated from University of Copenhagen, became a barrister/lawyer, was elected to the Norwegian Constiuent Assembly, co-authored the Norwegian constitution, and has since been called the "father of the Norwegian constitution".

    I have yet to see any official statement or admission, however I highly suspect that Falsen, the father of the Norwegian constitution, was a freemason. If not, he willingly adopted Masonic principles, affiliated himself with the Masonic movement ( as he was born and raised in Christiania, now Oslo, the location of the first and oldest Masonic lodge in Norway), and apparently modeled his life around Masonry.
    The Norwegian constitution:

    Article 1
    The Kingdom of Norway is a free, independent, indivisible and inalienable Realm. Its form of government is a limited and hereditary monarchy.
    ticle 2
    All inhabitants of the Realm shall have the right to free exercise of their religion. The Evangelical-Lutheran religion shall remain the official religion of the State. The inhabitants professing it are bound to bring up their children in the same.
    Article 3
    The Executive Power is vested in the King, or in the Queen if she has succeeded to the Crown pursuant to the provisions of Article 6 or Article 7 or Article 48 of this Constitution. When the Executive Power is thus vested in the Queen, she has all the rights and obligations which pursuant to this Constitution and the Law of the Land are possessed by the King.
    Article 4
    The King shall at all times profess the Evangelical-Lutheran religion, and uphold and protect the same.
    Article 5
    The King's person is sacred; he cannot be censured or accused. The responsibility rests with his Council.
    Article 12
    The King himself chooses a Council from among Norwegian citizens who are entitled to vote. This Council shall consist of a Prime Minister and at least seven other Members. More than half the number of the Members of the Council of State shall profess the official religion of the State. The King apportions the business among the Members of the Council of State, as he deems appropriate. Under extraordinary circumstances,besides the ordinary Members of the Council of State, the King may summon other Norwegian citizens, although no Members of the Storting, to take a seat in the Council of State. Husband and wife, parent and child or two siblings may never sit at the same time in the Council of State.
    Article 13
    During his travels within the Realm, the King may delegate the administration of the Realm to the Council of State. The Council of State shall conduct the government in the King's name and on his behalf. It shall scrupulously observe the provisions of this Constitution, as well as such particular directives in conformity therewith as the King may instruct. The matters of business shall be decided by voting, where in the event of the votes being equal, the Prime Minister, or in his absence the highest-ranking Member of the Council of State who is present, shall have two votes. The Council of State shall make a report to the King on matters of business which it thus decides.
    Article 14
    The King may appoint State Secretaries to assist Members of the Council of State with their duties outside the Council of State. Each State Secretary shall act on behalf of the Member of the Council of State to whom he is attached to the extent determined by that Member.
    Article 16
    The King ordains all public church services and public worship, all meetings and assemblies dealing with religious matters, and ensures that public teachers of religion follow the norms prescribed for them.
    Article 17
    The King may issue and repeal ordi nances relating to commerce, customs tariffs, all economic sectors and the police; although these must not conflict with the Constitution or with the laws passed by the Storting (as hereinafter prescribed in Articles 77, 78 and 79). They shall remain in force provisionally until the next Storting.
    Article 18
    As a general rule the King shall provide for the collection of the taxes and duties imposed by the Storting.
    Article 19
    The King shall ensure that the properties and prerogatives of the State are utilized and administered in the manner determined by the Storting and in the best interests of the general public.
    http://www.constitution.org/cons/norway/dok-bn.html

    So when one says Norway is the happiest nation in the world, does that mean it's secular liberal ideology is best? Does it mean Evangelical Luthern Christianity, the state religion and the religion of the monarchy, is best? Does it mean the secular liberal combination of these two is best? Does it mean a constitutional monarchy is best? When someone says "democracy", it means both the political face and the economic face, which is capitalism.
    And one should argue that the economic face is the dominating face of the two-faced monster. Capitalism motivates the politics and defines relations of the society.

    The Capitalist ideology is based on the principle of scarcity: limited resources for unlimited needs. But then it fails to define needs and allows for the ideal of a "free market" to distribute resources for needs as based on a supposed individual determination, when in reality the market is controlled and restricted by the dominating powers of an economy who determine the politics, laws, government to suit their needs at the detriment of the masses. The reality is the primary economic powers of an economy define what constitutes "need" and "freedoms" of a market based economy.



    And then there is the issue of the hard reality.

    Norway has massive natural resources available for a small population. Timber forests, natural iron and ore deposits, petroleum reserves. Using it's ties to the West, it learned how to harvest and exploit it's own resources with precision and maximum economic benefits for it's relatively small population of 5.2 million people (2015).

    But what if Norway wasn't only 5.2 million? What if it was 52 million, or 520 million? And what if, instead of all Norwegians being 90% Nordic/Scandanavian, what if 50% were of other ethnicities and religions?


    In terms of Norway's modern age, after the constitution of 1814 ce, Norway began a slow economic development. The transfer to a liberal economy enabled individual entrepeneurship and exploitation of natural resources, such as fishing, hunting, and eventually mining. It's economic boom mirrored that of Europe in the mid1800s with industrialization and economies of scale. Norway was a major exporter of fish and timber and excelled at international shipping worldwide. This served the many European colonies worldwide.

    Norway experienced economic stagnation and slowdown in the late 1880s resulting in emigration to North America. According to Norwegian statistics, 60% of the birth surplus emigrated, meaning of all the new population births, 60% of those new births left the country.

    And the larger scheme, the emigration FROM Norway in the late 1800s, early 1900s, meant Norway had a smaller population by the early 2000s ce. If instead of 5.2 million, there were 25 million Norwegians, then many of the circumstances of Norwegian society would be different.

    In any case, Norway was in a malaise until the 2000s ce when oil prices reached their height. Norway's economy had be centered around the oil industry but began to develop outside of it as well, allowing for more flexibility and less dependency on oil prices.
    Today, it has a GDP per capita of $99,600 usd with a life expectancy of 81. But these stats reflect a moment in time which cannot be sustained by itself. And add to this the fertility rate for Norway is 1.8, between China and Ireland (2005).

    So while Norway is teetering at a moment in time, the global trend is leaning in opposing direction.

    Modern liberal capitalism according to the Milton Friedman model revives some of the old 19th century concepts of capitalism. It seeks to scale back social programs, privatizes and scales back government. Most in Western Europe have enjoyed free primary education and free higher education, free or low cost healthcare. The Friedman model privatizes these, supposedly opening them to the "free market", but in reality eliminates government's role and allows for other forces to control and profit from education and healthcare.

    American political forces have advanced this in America, gaining control of the American government. Upon doing so, they used the US government to facilitate this globally, especially in Western Europe. But they continue to propagate this Friedman model through political think tanks, political organizations within European nations, and through organizations like Bildenberger Group.

    For now, Norway has sustained it's bubble of social programs despite the global trend of "austerity" measures. With the drop in global oil prices, the influx of nonEuropean immigrants challenging the old Euro-centric secular ethnic majority, and the pressures from the Western leadership to follow rightwing, Friedman model, add to this Norway's active role in NATO and military interventions in Muslim lands, and the idea of a "happy" Norway sours.
    Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
    " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by ZahinC View Post
    I was just saying that other countries have plenty of access to sin, you could say that Russia has easy access or US or Thailand or Portugal but none of them make it on that list, the reason why that these countries are happy is because a majority of its citizens have a good standard of living
    What list you talking about?

    Western nations have the highest rate of Filth, it's a commonly known fact.
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by ZahinC View Post
    OK, it not like Saudi Arabia and some other very wealthy gulf countries don't engage in zina aka "maids" and access to many other haram things. But they don't seem to be happy. Your correlation is also wrong brother, those countries are happy because they have a high standard of living, not because of easy access to sin
    Zina is probably the least rate in Saudi, they have other major problems,

    Quit telling porkies,

    Having a maid doesn't mean the person is automatically a Zani,

    You a have a very dirty mind,

    With regard to ease of sinning, it's easier in Darul Kufr, there is no doubt about this whatsoever,

    Filth is far more easily available,

    You seem to be a Troll,
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Success of the Muslimeen lies through Islam,

    All other way leads to humiliation, disgrace,
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by AishaGirl View Post
    Chinas success is purely economical, a large percentage of China's population live in poverty and China will soon enough experience its own uprising. There are 3 basic things nearly all people want and that is freedom, equality and health.

    When I say freedom I dont mean drugs and zina left right and centre, I mean freedom to earn a life for themselves, freedom to talk about certain topics etc. Equality means that every citizen has an equal chance to be as successful as the next person. Health is pretty obvious, everyone wants food, shelter and medicine.
    I would argue that the success of the west is purely due economical reasons too. The only difference being is that western countries have been established longer than the China we have today. Have you got any proof that the people will rise up? I think it's very unlikely that a people will revolt whilst their country is rising up in the world.

    I think the problem here is that you're basing the success of the western world on their democracy. Democracy doesn't give a person a good livelihood or good health. The superiority of the western world mainly stems from their military success in the world over the past few centuries. If they had not successfully conquered our countries and made our wealth their own, many of these people in the west would still be living the life of peasants.

    I've been meaning to reply to this for a while but kept forgetting or other things got in the way.
    Last edited by Medic; 12-01-17 at 10:21 PM.

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    Democracies lead to too much time being wasted discussing stuff. A leader should be decisive.

    Anyway no such thing as a democracy. It is just a fallacy.
    Non-democratic authoritarian rule majority of the time ends up being extremely corrupt, it's ruler at one stage only thinks about keeping his rule forever and for his family. It is nothing but dictatorship, unless it's a benevolent dictator which is extremely rare and does not guarantee the future of the state.

    Democracy is not perfect but it is the best system so far in absence of a better system
    Last edited by Ginger & Garlic; 13-01-17 at 12:12 AM.

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    Muslims who promote democracy and twist sharia and Khilapha as outdated..

    there is no secret we have thousdands of these in the west.

    They even allow kuffar to do campaigns in the masajids.


    Are they in the fold of islam?
    A new sect?
    Outside the fold of islam?

    I dont need to explain the characteristics of these people..
    Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

    If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdell View Post
    there is no secret we have thousdands of these in the west.

    They even allow kuffar to do campaigns in the masajids.


    Are they in the fold of islam?
    A new sect?
    Outside the fold of islam?

    I dont need to explain the characteristics of these people..
    I believe your Madkhali cult has indirectly promoted these heretical views due to your constant bashing of Islamist groups such as Muslim brotherhood, Sayid Qutub,HT and call them deviants in essence doing on a microlevel what your Saudi and UAE parent states are doing on a macrolevel in the Middle East by scuttling any attempt to bring Islam into politics while promoting brutal secular dictatorships such as that of Sisi and Heftar.

    The Western governments often saw the Madkhalia as tools in pacifying the Muslims and often turned a blind eye to their other traits such as niqab, perceived homophobic rants, anti democracy.However the world has moved on since then and the screws have tightened and the government would rather work with people such as Majid Nawaz rather than Abu Khadeeja

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    Re: Muslims who promote democracy and twist sharia and Khilapha as outdated..

    Very good points although there wasn't a need to direct it at anyone ^

    One of the causes of Muslims liberalising and supporting western ideologies such as democracy is the influence of intellectual challenges from modern academia and secular institutions. The complete liberalism and secularism that is pushed in school/university syllabuses have the effect of providing an 'alternative' solution for modern day issues and a form of governance and world order that best caters for the needs of man as opposed to a religion that was sent down 1400 years ago initially to Arabs in the 7th century.

    But what these Muslims don't realise is that the shari'ah is a divine constitution that is not bounded by a specific time period and has anticipated these modern issues long before they came about. The Shari'ah is the knowledge of Allah swt, the very lord that created the 'Uqool(intellects) of the creation who then use their limited 'Aql to challenge the unlimited knowledge of Allah swt or devise 'alternatives' for it.

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    Angry Re: Muslims who promote democracy and twist sharia and Khilapha as outdated..

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdulmajeed88 View Post
    I believe your Madkhali cult has indirectly promoted these heretical views due to your constant bashing of Islamist groups such as Muslim brotherhood, Sayid Qutub,HT and call them deviants in essence doing on a microlevel what your Saudi and UAE parent states are doing on a macrolevel in the Middle East by scuttling any attempt to bring Islam into politics while promoting brutal secular dictatorships such as that of Sisi and Heftar.

    The Western governments often saw the Madkhalia as tools in pacifying the Muslims and often turned a blind eye to their other traits such as niqab, perceived homophobic rants, anti democracy.However the world has moved on since then and the screws have tightened and the government would rather work with people such as Majid Nawaz rather than Abu Khadeeja
    Hasbiullah wa ni`ma wakeel!

    Is this "slander a brother" day on UF?

    Abdell is not a Madkhali. Nor is he responsible for what you described.
    In fact, he was opposing a munkar found in the west of "promoting democracy and twisting Shariah and calling the khilafah outdated".

    You have wronged him even while he was standing up for the Haqq.

    Hasbiullah wa ni`ma wakeel!
    Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
    " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

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    Re: Muslims who promote democracy and twist sharia and Khilapha as outdated..

    Let's start with the definitions:

    Khilafah: A monarchy type system where the khalifah has no accountability. At least it never demonstrated in the Islamic history that it had accountability. Throughout history, the khilafah worked like a system of dynastic monarchy.

    Democratic rule: The ruler is elected by the people for a certain term. The ruler is performance monitored for the period and based on his performance re-elected or thrown out. The ruler is accountable to law, any normal citizen can take the ruler to court and the court can independently rule against the ruler which he must accept.

    Explain to me now, how a khilafah is superior to a democratic system.

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    Re: Muslims who promote democracy and twist sharia and Khilapha as outdated..

    Quote Originally Posted by muslim2017 View Post
    Let's start with the definitions:

    Khilafah: A monarchy type system where the khalifah has no accountability. At least it never demonstrated in the Islamic history that it had accountability. Throughout history, the khilafah worked like a system of dynastic monarchy.

    Democratic rule: The ruler is elected by the people for a certain term. The ruler is performance monitored for the period and based on his performance re-elected or thrown out. The ruler is accountable to law, any normal citizen can take the ruler to court and the court can independently rule against the ruler which he must accept.

    Explain to me now, how a khilafah is superior to a democratic system.
    What senseless drivel just puked out here....

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    Re: Muslims who promote democracy and twist sharia and Khilapha as outdated..

    Quote Originally Posted by muslim2017 View Post
    Let's start with the definitions:

    Khilafah: A monarchy type system where the khalifah has no accountability. At least it never demonstrated in the Islamic history that it had accountability. Throughout history, the khilafah worked like a system of dynastic monarchy.
    .
    Is there actually any historical precedence that proves this definition wrong? I am asking because I cannot think of any.

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    Re: Muslims who promote democracy and twist sharia and Khilapha as outdated..

    Quote Originally Posted by muslim2017 View Post
    Let's start with the definitions:

    Khilafah: A monarchy type system where the khalifah has no accountability. At least it never demonstrated in the Islamic history that it had accountability. Throughout history, the khilafah worked like a system of dynastic monarchy.

    Democratic rule: The ruler is elected by the people for a certain term. The ruler is performance monitored for the period and based on his performance re-elected or thrown out. The ruler is accountable to law, any normal citizen can take the ruler to court and the court can independently rule against the ruler which he must accept.

    Explain to me now, how a khilafah is superior to a democratic system.

    Do yourself a favour and go learn your religion & Islamic history properly before you start extolling the virtues of a kufr system over that which is an essential part of Islam.

    So i tell you how Khilafah is superior.
    Democracy = man made system. System created by man, laws created by man.

    Khilafah = Ordained by Allah

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    Re: Muslims who promote democracy and twist sharia and Khilapha as outdated..

    Quote Originally Posted by muslim2017 View Post
    Let's start with the definitions:

    Khilafah: A monarchy type system where the khalifah has no accountability. At least it never demonstrated in the Islamic history that it had accountability. Throughout history, the khilafah worked like a system of dynastic monarchy.

    Democratic rule: The ruler is elected by the people for a certain term. The ruler is performance monitored for the period and based on his performance re-elected or thrown out. The ruler is accountable to law, any normal citizen can take the ruler to court and the court can independently rule against the ruler which he must accept.

    Explain to me now, how a khilafah is superior to a democratic system.
    1st off, the Khalifah does have accountability. If he rules outside of Al-Islam, he should be kicked out.
    Also, what Muslims do =/= what Al-Islam teaches.

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    Re: Muslims who promote democracy and twist sharia and Khilapha as outdated..

    Quote Originally Posted by Door View Post
    Is there actually any historical precedence that proves this definition wrong? I am asking because I cannot think of any.
    You should probably look up why the Sahaaba (RA) strongly tried to avoid positions of authority to see that the definition contradicts what Islam says.

    A Caliph is accountable to all his subjects and he will be questioned on his rule. This applies at all levels, even for the husband in his home (wife, children, etc.)

    A good reference for this is the story of Umar (RA) and the old woman who complained that the Caliph is not seeing to her (she complained to him without realizing he is the Caliph). This caused him great distress. I don't want to copy/paste the entire story, but as it is very famous, you should be able to find a link to it.

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    Re: Muslims who promote democracy and twist sharia and Khilapha as outdated..

    Quote Originally Posted by muslim2017 View Post
    Let's start with the definitions:

    Khilafah: A monarchy type system where the khalifah has no accountability. At least it never demonstrated in the Islamic history that it had accountability. Throughout history, the khilafah worked like a system of dynastic monarchy.

    Democratic rule: The ruler is elected by the people for a certain term. The ruler is performance monitored for the period and based on his performance re-elected or thrown out. The ruler is accountable to law, any normal citizen can take the ruler to court and the court can independently rule against the ruler which he must accept.

    Explain to me now, how a khilafah is superior to a democratic system.
    coconuts..Smdh.
    Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

    If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

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    Re: Muslims who promote democracy and twist sharia and Khilapha as outdated..

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdell View Post
    there is no secret we have thousdands of these in the west.

    They even allow kuffar to do campaigns in the masajids.


    Are they in the fold of islam?
    A new sect?
    Outside the fold of islam?

    I dont need to explain the characteristics of these people..
    This phenomenon is not exclusively a western problem as every single government in every traditionally muslim country has proven. This is a global problem.
    The recent fitna in Arabia of scholars being locked up shows that no land is free from this

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    Slave of AIIah dsr478's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims who promote democracy and twist sharia and Khilapha as outdated..

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdell View Post
    there is no secret we have thousdands of these in the west.

    They even allow kuffar to do campaigns in the masajids.


    Are they in the fold of islam?
    A new sect?
    Outside the fold of islam?

    I dont need to explain the characteristics of these people..
    They're munafiqeen.

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    Re: Muslims who promote democracy and twist sharia and Khilapha as outdated..

    Quote Originally Posted by Ekoor View Post
    What senseless drivel just puked out here....
    What do you expect from the munafiqeen?

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    Re: Muslims who promote democracy and twist sharia and Khilapha as outdated..

    Quote Originally Posted by horizon View Post
    You should probably look up why the Sahaaba (RA) strongly tried to avoid positions of authority to see that the definition contradicts what Islam says.

    A Caliph is accountable to all his subjects and he will be questioned on his rule. This applies at all levels, even for the husband in his home (wife, children, etc.)

    A good reference for this is the story of Umar (RA) and the old woman who complained that the Caliph is not seeing to her (she complained to him without realizing he is the Caliph). This caused him great distress. I don't want to copy/paste the entire story, but as it is very famous, you should be able to find a link to it.
    How is a caliph accountable to all his subjects and when will he be questioned on his rule? The hypothetical posthumous reckoning didn't have much effect on the behaviour of some of the Ottoman sultans.

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    Abu-Tawheed Saif-Uddin's Avatar
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    Re: Muslims who promote democracy and twist sharia and Khilapha as outdated..

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdulmajeed88 View Post
    I believe your Madkhali cult has indirectly promoted these heretical views due to your constant bashing of Islamist groups such as Muslim brotherhood, Sayid Qutub,HT and call them deviants in essence doing on a microlevel what your Saudi and UAE parent states are doing on a macrolevel in the Middle East by scuttling any attempt to bring Islam into politics while promoting brutal secular dictatorships such as that of Sisi and Heftar.

    The Western governments often saw the Madkhalia as tools in pacifying the Muslims and often turned a blind eye to their other traits such as niqab, perceived homophobic rants, anti democracy.However the world has moved on since then and the screws have tightened and the government would rather work with people such as Majid Nawaz rather than Abu Khadeeja
    Nice try, he's not madkhali,

    There are many Deviants who have been promoting the Kufr of Democracy, it's common knowledge,

    The Brother is asking if they are outside the fold of Islam,

    There exists only 2 possibilities,

    Munafiqoon or Kuffar (those who promote the Kufr known as democracy)

    Nauzibillah min zaliq
    Last edited by Saif-Uddin; 10-10-17 at 11:06 PM.
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    Re: Muslims who promote democracy and twist sharia and Khilapha as outdated..

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikha’eel View Post
    Do yourself a favour and go learn your religion & Islamic history properly before you start extolling the virtues of a kufr system over that which is an essential part of Islam.

    So i tell you how Khilafah is superior.
    Democracy = man made system. System created by man, laws created by man.

    Khilafah = Ordained by Allah
    Akhi Ignorance has no limits as we've witnessed,

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    Re: Muslims who promote democracy and twist sharia and Khilapha as outdated..

    Right now there is no country that rules in 100% sharia without some sort of deviation; whether they incorporate secular laws(Qatar), they misuse the Islamic laws by treating people harshly (Saudi Arabia), or they are are straight up terrorists who twist the laws to their own likes..etc(Isis controlled areas).

    In democracy; you can follow whatever religion you want as long as you do not impose your beliefs on anyone else.

 

 

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