Hello & Welcome to our community. Is this your first visit? Register
Ads by Muslim Ad Network


Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 80 of 173
  1. #1
    Senior Member true and just's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    107
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    27 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    37

    Democracy in Islam

    People keep on going on about democracy.

    How Israel is the only democracy in the middle east.

    If you ask me, democracy does not work.

    It's like going to a restaurant and being told that you can eat whatever you want as long as it is Chicken or a Cheese Burger.

  2. #41

    Account Disabled

    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    74
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    70 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoic Believer View Post
    Man, you really love America.

    Also, do answer my question. What kind of government do you support for the Muslim world? Also, what is your opinion on establishing Sharia and a khilafah?
    Sorry for the very late reply, brother I was studying and didn't have time. But, to answer your question, I think we need a muslim majority country where a majority of its inhabitants are throughly educated in Islam but there should be an election of the leader, no passing of power. The idea of a monarchy or dictatorship to me just seems backward and illogical as most non democratic countries which are sucessful usually have one or two good leaders but in the end fail because power is passed down to an incompetent fool or the country tears itself into pieces over civil war. An example of sucessful non democratic regimes would be Thailand, whose king recently died but managed to improve his country by relentlessly working to improve the lives of its citizens, however his wayward promiscuous son is due to take power and most thais agree he is very incompetent. Personally, I believe that a caliphate can be established only through average citizens learning more about Islam however, due to the failures in Syria where the government handily defeated the rebels, I don't know how Sharia law can be established in more countries or how a caliphate would come to be. I think that we as Muslims need to learn lessons from the failures in Syria and know that next time an oppurtunity like this comes along, we cannot have disunion.

  3. #42
    Wanderer Stoic Believer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    10,744
    Mentioned
    409 Post(s)
    Quoted
    9428 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    453

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zayndi View Post
    Sorry for the very late reply, brother I was studying and didn't have time. But, to answer your question, I think we need a muslim majority country where a majority of its inhabitants are throughly educated in Islam but there should be an election of the leader, no passing of power. The idea of a monarchy or dictatorship to me just seems backward and illogical as most non democratic countries which are sucessful usually have one or two good leaders but in the end fail because power is passed down to an incompetent fool or the country tears itself into pieces over civil war. An example of sucessful non democratic regimes would be Thailand, whose king recently died but managed to improve his country by relentlessly working to improve the lives of its citizens, however his wayward promiscuous son is due to take power and most thais agree he is very incompetent. Personally, I believe that a caliphate can be established only through average citizens learning more about Islam however, due to the failures in Syria where the government handily defeated the rebels, I don't know how Sharia law can be established in more countries or how a caliphate would come to be. I think that we as Muslims need to learn lessons from the failures in Syria and know that next time an oppurtunity like this comes along, we cannot have disunion.
    Interesting. for your reply.

  4. #43

    Account Disabled

    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    74
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    70 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic. View Post
    But they have been achieved by every civilisation. So by that logic, every civilisation was great.

    You need to separate the way a country runs and the products it can form.

    How did a liberal democracy produce Microsoft?
    Well it is not about the products it can form but the standard of living it citizens have. I don't think that there is modernization and a good standard of living in many Muslim countries. Find something like social security or medical care, the Muslim world is also clearly behind in education. I'm not sure where you get the idea that every civilization was great, in general people are much more educated now than they ever were at any other time in the past however, there are plenty of places were the population is not very well educated at all. You missed my point, a liberal democracy produced Microsoft because that one indivisual had an higher education. If more people went to university and applied the knowledge they learned in their home country then there could be endless benefits, in the 21st century, knowledge is power to help your people be sucessful.

  5. #44
    SUFI HANAFI
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    42,180
    Mentioned
    499 Post(s)
    Quoted
    8563 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    795

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Democracy is for fools.

  6. #45

    Account Disabled

    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    74
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    70 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by fyi View Post
    You are wrong. Democracy is completely controlled by media and this is nothing new. I've had many professor talk about how media outlets or certain artists can completely control how your citizens think and therefor which leader they choose. The democratic system is hardly any democratic, it's just a system where the guy that is backed with enough financial support gets elected. That's how it works and how it always will work.
    Well this was disproven on November, 2016 by the election of Donald Trump who spent much less money(300 million) than his opponent Hillary Clinton who had the full backing of many major new outlets, comedy shows, other tv shows, celebrities etc... but still failed to win the election

  7. #46
    An-Najdi abufulaans's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    6,079
    Mentioned
    120 Post(s)
    Quoted
    3515 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    106

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by fyi View Post
    You are wrong. Democracy is completely controlled by media and this is nothing new. I've had many professor talk about how media outlets or certain artists can completely control how your citizens think and therefor which leader they choose. The democratic system is hardly any democratic, it's just a system where the guy that is backed with enough financial support gets elected. That's how it works and how it always will work.
    Exactly, first time I agree with you, not only that, the people are given a selection of less then 5 people to choose from, and even then the people hardly have a say in what actually happens after
    It's a way to keep dumb people happy, they think they have power and are important, but they are infact brainless sheep
    Last edited by abufulaans; 26-12-16 at 11:33 PM.
    ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

  8. #47
    Odan Medic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2014
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    1,494
    Mentioned
    70 Post(s)
    Quoted
    911 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    81

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by AishaGirl View Post
    Im probably going to get a lot of hate for this but in all fairness democracy has been the most successful type of system for the non muslims of course. To say it doesnt work is just flat our wrong, it does work, just not for muslims.
    I don't think it has. Non-Muslim success is mainly due to their colonial past.

    There is no democracy in countries like China, yet they will eclipse the US in future.

  9. #48
    YOUR FAVOURITE AKHI 2016 Magic.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    11,112
    Mentioned
    62 Post(s)
    Quoted
    2281 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    386

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zayndi View Post
    Well it is not about the products it can form but the standard of living it citizens have. I don't think that there is modernization and a good standard of living in many Muslim countries. Find something like social security or medical care, the Muslim world is also clearly behind in education. I'm not sure where you get the idea that every civilization was great, in general people are much more educated now than they ever were at any other time in the past however, there are plenty of places were the population is not very well educated at all. You missed my point, a liberal democracy produced Microsoft because that one indivisual had an higher education. If more people went to university and applied the knowledge they learned in their home country then there could be endless benefits, in the 21st century, knowledge is power to help your people be sucessful.
    Higher education is almost in all countries.

    That individual who made Microsoft dropped out of Havard.

    So your point is redundant.


    You have not established any clear link. All I see is a rant against Muslim countries. I don't represent Muslim countries. I made no clear attempt to do so, so I don't know why you are discussing this with me.
    8 powerful habits to succeed


    1. Wake up early!
    2. Do it as soon as possible, you could die tonight so make the best of today
    3. Remember your life is unique, don't compare yourself to others. Use that jealousy as an energy to make your life a success"
    4. Have healthy habits. Set a time each day to exercise. Try with the mindset you're only going to do some jumping jacks for 5 seconds and the next thing you know, you're doing a workout!
    5. Read, read, read. Ponder over the Qur'an, learn more. Put the idiot box (TV) away
    6. Take note. Desires make slaves out of kings and patience makes kings out of slaves.
    7. Results aren't just worldly. Results are also about perseverance, retaining dignity, being honest, being honourable, doing good unto others.
    8. Always encourage others especially our brothers and sisters, let them know making mistakes is okay, we all make mistakes, do not ever undermine them and make them feel incompetent. This id also true for the dunya, so what if they don't get the maths sum right the first time, that is what LEARNING is.

    NEW UPDATE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJubtizAEfU


    Watch this when you're distressed!

  10. #49
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    299
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Quoted
    217 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zayndi View Post
    Well this was disproven on November, 2016 by the election of Donald Trump who spent much less money(300 million) than his opponent Hillary Clinton who had the full backing of many major new outlets, comedy shows, other tv shows, celebrities etc... but still failed to win the election
    Yes he got elected because the media made so much propaganda for him. He would never be elected had he not made use of the corrupt media outlets. It's 2016, a hamster could have won the elections as long as it has enough attraction from the media.

  11. #50
    humans are weird
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    706
    Mentioned
    43 Post(s)
    Quoted
    744 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    38

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Medic View Post
    I don't think it has. Non-Muslim success is mainly due to their colonial past.

    There is no democracy in countries like China, yet they will eclipse the US in future.
    Chinas success is purely economical, a large percentage of China's population live in poverty and China will soon enough experience its own uprising. There are 3 basic things nearly all people want and that is freedom, equality and health.

    When I say freedom I dont mean drugs and zina left right and centre, I mean freedom to earn a life for themselves, freedom to talk about certain topics etc. Equality means that every citizen has an equal chance to be as successful as the next person. Health is pretty obvious, everyone wants food, shelter and medicine.

  12. #51
    SUFI HANAFI
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    42,180
    Mentioned
    499 Post(s)
    Quoted
    8563 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    795

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by AishaGirl View Post
    ...There are 3 basic things nearly all people want and that is freedom, equality and health.

    When I say freedom I dont mean drugs and zina left right and centre, I mean freedom to earn a life for themselves, freedom to talk about certain topics etc. Equality means that every citizen has an equal chance to be as successful as the next person. Health is pretty obvious, everyone wants food, shelter and medicine.
    None of which have anything to do with democracy.

  13. #52
    humans are weird
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    706
    Mentioned
    43 Post(s)
    Quoted
    744 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    38

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    None of which have anything to do with democracy.
    Except democratic countries lead in health, medicine and overall public happiness. Your statement could not be more wrong.

    Happiest countries top 10:

    10: Sweden (Democratic)
    9: Australia (Democratic)
    8: New Zealand (Democratic)
    7: The Netherlands (Democratic)
    6: Canada (Democratic)
    5: Finland (Democratic)
    4: Norway (Democratic)
    3: Iceland (Democratic)
    2: Switzerland (Democratic)
    1: Denmark (Democratic)

    source http://www.nationalgeographic.com/tr...iest-countries

    Best healthcare top 10:

    10: Japan (Democratic)
    9: Austria (Democratic)
    8: Oman (Absolute Monarchy)
    7: Spain (Democratic)
    6: Singapore (Democratic)
    5: Malta (Democratic)
    4: Andorra (Democratic)
    3: San Marino (Democratic)
    2: Italy (Democratic)
    1: France (Democratic)

    source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...health_systems

    Freedom of politics top 10:

    10: New Zealand (Democratic)
    9: Iceland (Democratic)
    8: Denmark (Democratic)
    7: Finland (Democratic)
    6: Sweden (Democratic)
    5: Luxembourg (Democratic)
    4: Belgium (Democratic)
    3: Canada (Democratic)
    2: San Marino (Democratic)
    1: Norway (Democratic)

    Are you starting to notice a pattern yet? You say democracy has nothing to do with the overall happiness and health of a country when that clearly isnt true, you are just lying. There is 1 country in those lists which isnt democratic and they have very good healthcare. When will people realise that a country can only be as successful as its people... I am not advocating zina and drugs and a world of fitna but allow your citizens to speak their mind... allow them to drive for goodness sake, allow them to thrive and succeed. If your people are not happy, your country will fail. Its just that simple.

  14. #53
    SUFI HANAFI
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    42,180
    Mentioned
    499 Post(s)
    Quoted
    8563 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    795

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by AishaGirl View Post
    Except democratic countries lead in health, medicine and overall public happiness. Your statement could not be more wrong.

    Happiest countries top 10:

    10: Sweden (Democratic)
    9: Australia (Democratic)
    8: New Zealand (Democratic)
    7: The Netherlands (Democratic)
    6: Canada (Democratic)
    5: Finland (Democratic)
    4: Norway (Democratic)
    3: Iceland (Democratic)
    2: Switzerland (Democratic)
    1: Denmark (Democratic)

    source http://www.nationalgeographic.com/tr...iest-countries

    Best healthcare top 10:

    10: Japan (Democratic)
    9: Austria (Democratic)
    8: Oman (Absolute Monarchy)
    7: Spain (Democratic)
    6: Singapore (Democratic)
    5: Malta (Democratic)
    4: Andorra (Democratic)
    3: San Marino (Democratic)
    2: Italy (Democratic)
    1: France (Democratic)

    source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...health_systems

    Freedom of politics top 10:

    10: New Zealand (Democratic)
    9: Iceland (Democratic)
    8: Denmark (Democratic)
    7: Finland (Democratic)
    6: Sweden (Democratic)
    5: Luxembourg (Democratic)
    4: Belgium (Democratic)
    3: Canada (Democratic)
    2: San Marino (Democratic)
    1: Norway (Democratic)

    Are you starting to notice a pattern yet? You say democracy has nothing to do with the overall happiness and health of a country when that clearly isnt true, you are just lying. There is 1 country in those lists which isnt democratic and they have very good healthcare. When will people realise that a country can only be as successful as its people... I am not advocating zina and drugs and a world of fitna but allow your citizens to speak their mind... allow them to drive for goodness sake, allow them to thrive and succeed. If your people are not happy, your country will fail. Its just that simple.
    Correlation... causation... blah blah blah

    ...I am not advocating zina and drugs and a world of fitna...
    Funny, because that is probably why they're so happy.

  15. #54
    humans are weird
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    706
    Mentioned
    43 Post(s)
    Quoted
    744 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    38

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    Funny, because that is probably why they're so happy.
    Perhaps... it will be their downfall on the day of judgement.

  16. #55
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    299
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Quoted
    217 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by AishaGirl View Post
    Except democratic countries lead in health, medicine and overall public happiness. Your statement could not be more wrong.

    Happiest countries top 10:

    10: Sweden (Democratic)
    9: Australia (Democratic)
    8: New Zealand (Democratic)
    7: The Netherlands (Democratic)
    6: Canada (Democratic)
    5: Finland (Democratic)
    4: Norway (Democratic)
    3: Iceland (Democratic)
    2: Switzerland (Democratic)
    1: Denmark (Democratic)

    source http://www.nationalgeographic.com/tr...iest-countries

    Best healthcare top 10:

    10: Japan (Democratic)
    9: Austria (Democratic)
    8: Oman (Absolute Monarchy)
    7: Spain (Democratic)
    6: Singapore (Democratic)
    5: Malta (Democratic)
    4: Andorra (Democratic)
    3: San Marino (Democratic)
    2: Italy (Democratic)
    1: France (Democratic)

    source https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_...health_systems

    Freedom of politics top 10:

    10: New Zealand (Democratic)
    9: Iceland (Democratic)
    8: Denmark (Democratic)
    7: Finland (Democratic)
    6: Sweden (Democratic)
    5: Luxembourg (Democratic)
    4: Belgium (Democratic)
    3: Canada (Democratic)
    2: San Marino (Democratic)
    1: Norway (Democratic)

    Are you starting to notice a pattern yet? You say democracy has nothing to do with the overall happiness and health of a country when that clearly isnt true, you are just lying. There is 1 country in those lists which isnt democratic and they have very good healthcare. When will people realise that a country can only be as successful as its people... I am not advocating zina and drugs and a world of fitna but allow your citizens to speak their mind... allow them to drive for goodness sake, allow them to thrive and succeed. If your people are not happy, your country will fail. Its just that simple.
    Lol according to another poll muslims are no different from animals. You realise anyone with even a little bit of knowledge about spss would know that surveys can literally be 100% wrong.

  17. #56
    humans are weird
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    706
    Mentioned
    43 Post(s)
    Quoted
    744 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    38

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by fyi View Post
    Lol according to another poll muslims are no different from animals. You realise anyone with even a little bit of knowledge about spss would know that surveys can literally be 100% wrong.
    I would hardly call national geographic and the world health organisation a "survey". They base their information on statistics and proven data.

    If it was the DailyMail or something sure, I would agree with you.

  18. #57
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    478
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Quoted
    362 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    16

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    I'm really sorry for asking this given the things being discussed, but would a Caliphate have "limited democracy"? Would the citizens be able to vote for things that aren't related to Islam? I can't think of examples right now because I'm tired and have to go to work, but I'm interested in finding out.

  19. #58
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    299
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Quoted
    217 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    9

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by lailahailaHuwa View Post
    I'm really sorry for asking this given the things being discussed, but would a Caliphate have "limited democracy"? Would the citizens be able to vote for things that aren't related to Islam? I can't think of examples right now because I'm tired and have to go to work, but I'm interested in finding out.
    Sure why not. As long as it is in the lines of Islam it should be given a shot.

  20. #59
    Odan
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Gender
    Girl Unspecified
    Posts
    2,165
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1415 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    22

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by fyi View Post
    Sure why not. As long as it is in the lines of Islam it should be given a shot.
    But what could people in a Caliphate vote for, though? After all, islam is supposed to be a "way of life" which determines just about everything people do, so what is there where there might be room for debate?

    Incidentally, the way the divinely-guided caliphs got and lost the job - assassination and/or civil war - is certainly one where many people would think there could be room for improvement. Any suggestions for how a change of government or ruler might be managed?

  21. #60
    Senior Member true and just's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    107
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    27 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    37

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    But what could people in a Caliphate vote for, though? After all, islam is supposed to be a "way of life" which determines just about everything people do, so what is there where there might be room for debate?

    Excellent point!

    Muslims live their life by Sharia. Since this is already written, all that would be required would be an administrative form of government and some scholars to interpret for new technologies and changes that they might bring to such a lifestyle.


    Politics, finance and and law have always went hand in hand. They are there to change laws and to the keep the elite in their position of power.

    The world would run much better if we united together under one common goal.

    Everyone should be entitled to shelter, food, education and healthcare.

  22. #61

    Account Disabled

    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    5,212
    Mentioned
    155 Post(s)
    Quoted
    3552 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    But what could people in a Caliphate vote for, though? After all, islam is supposed to be a "way of life" which determines just about everything people do, so what is there where there might be room for debate?

    Incidentally, the way the divinely-guided caliphs got and lost the job - assassination and/or civil war - is certainly one where many people would think there could be room for improvement. Any suggestions for how a change of government or ruler might be managed?
    What shape stop signs should be, octagons or circles lol

  23. #62
    Senior Member true and just's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    107
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    27 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    37

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Jarir View Post
    What shape stop signs should be, octagons or circles lol
    Dude?

    Circles!!!

  24. #63
    😈 Al-Wahhaabi 😈 muslim singafuri's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2016
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    747
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Quoted
    450 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    29

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Jarir View Post
    What shape stop signs should be, octagons or circles lol
    Circles son.
    If following Ahmad makes me a 'Wahhaabi', then I declare that I am one.

  25. #64
    Odan
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Gender
    Girl Unspecified
    Posts
    2,165
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1415 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    22

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by true and just View Post
    Everyone should be entitled to shelter, food, education and healthcare.
    State-provided education and healthcare alone each cost a lot more than would be raised by standard rates of zakat in European countries.

  26. #65
    Senior Member true and just's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    107
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    27 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    37

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    State-provided education and healthcare alone each cost a lot more than would be raised by standard rates of zakat in European countries.
    Look up fractional reserve banking and modern money mechanics.

    There is no "cost" as such if the government controls the banking system and not the private central banking cartels.

    Fiat money just controls the flow of resources.

  27. #66
    Odan
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Gender
    Girl Unspecified
    Posts
    2,165
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1415 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    22

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by true and just View Post
    Look up fractional reserve banking and modern money mechanics.

    There is no "cost" as such if the government controls the banking system and not the private central banking cartels.

    Fiat money just controls the flow of resources.
    Not at all. The NHS in the UK makes up nearly 10% of GDP and education about 5%, though some is recovered in the form of fees. However you define "tax", "money" or "cost", hospitals, schools and universities have to built and the people that build them and work in them. have to be paid and however you wrestle with it, 3 1/2% zakat isn't going to provide 15% of the GDP.
    As for fiat money, the recent example of Zimbabwe and the current example of Venezuela show the effect of government attempts to control the banking system.

  28. #67
    Senior Member true and just's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    107
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    27 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    37

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Not at all. The NHS in the UK makes up nearly 10% of GDP and education about 5%, though some is recovered in the form of fees. However you define "tax", "money" or "cost", hospitals, schools and universities have to built and the people that build them and work in them. have to be paid and however you wrestle with it, 3 1/2% zakat isn't going to provide 15% of the GDP.
    As for fiat money, the recent example of Zimbabwe and the current example of Venezuela show the effect of government attempts to control the banking system.
    If a country has the resources to produce everything that it needs internally, then fiat currency can help to pay for infrastructure.

    Take the USA and Soviet Union. The are probably the only two countries which could be self sufficient and not need to trade with any other country.

    A countries currency is given value by it's economic output. That is why the USA is still number 1. Even though it has trillions of dollars of debt it still has the capability to produce anything the world could possibly need.

    The same goes for European Countries.

    Economic output is the reason that African nations are still in poverty. They have no industrial base, save what former colonial masters left them.

    As for Zimbabwe and Venezuela, as I mentioned before these countries relied heavily on imports. They have no factories that can make enough consumer goods to sustain their economy

    Oil rich nations such as Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States also rely heavily on imports. Imagine what would happen to those countries if tomorrow the wells ran dry. They would not be able to pay for a bag of rice. And even if they could buy the rice they would not be able to produce a pot in which to cook it.

    The question really comes down to resources and human capital rather than "Money" itself.

    If we stopped wasting food in the west then everyone on the planet could have 4 meals a day.

  29. #68
    Odan
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Gender
    Girl Unspecified
    Posts
    2,165
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1415 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    22

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by true and just View Post
    If a country has the resources to produce everything that it needs internally, then fiat currency can help to pay for infrastructure.

    Take the USA and Soviet Union. The are probably the only two countries which could be self sufficient and not need to trade with any other country.

    A countries currency is given value by it's economic output. That is why the USA is still number 1. Even though it has trillions of dollars of debt it still has the capability to produce anything the world could possibly need.

    The same goes for European Countries.

    Economic output is the reason that African nations are still in poverty. They have no industrial base, save what former colonial masters left them.

    As for Zimbabwe and Venezuela, as I mentioned before these countries relied heavily on imports. They have no factories that can make enough consumer goods to sustain their economy

    Oil rich nations such as Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States also rely heavily on imports. Imagine what would happen to those countries if tomorrow the wells ran dry. They would not be able to pay for a bag of rice. And even if they could buy the rice they would not be able to produce a pot in which to cook it.

    The question really comes down to resources and human capital rather than "Money" itself.

    If we stopped wasting food in the west then everyone on the planet could have 4 meals a day.
    Given the relationship between a country's economic output and the value of its currency, it's still going to be impossible to provide the equivalent of 15% of GDP (the amount spent on health and education in the UK; other western European countries spend similar amounts or more) from zakat of 3.5%.
    The Soviet Union ceased to exist twenty five years ago. One of the causes of its downfall was the use of fiat values for goods - for example, collective farms grew grain, which was sold at fiat prices and made into bread, sold at fiat prices, which the farms bought as animal fodder because it was cheaper than just growing grain to feed to animals.

  30. #69
    Odan Morose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    17,558
    Mentioned
    649 Post(s)
    Quoted
    7999 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    1249

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Given the relationship between a country's economic output and the value of its currency, it's still going to be impossible to provide the equivalent of 15% of GDP (the amount spent on health and education in the UK; other western European countries spend similar amounts or more) from zakat of 3.5%.
    But then, the reason why countries such as the UK are able to spend such amounts is because of the various taxes: income tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax, inheritance tax, stamp duties, among various others. In an Islamic state, there would not be such taxes, meaning that most people will then have a larger disposable income and, as a result, probably would not have to rely on the state for education and healthcare.

  31. #70
    Senior Member true and just's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    107
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    27 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    37

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Given the relationship between a country's economic output and the value of its currency, it's still going to be impossible to provide the equivalent of 15% of GDP (the amount spent on health and education in the UK; other western European countries spend similar amounts or more) from zakat of 3.5%.
    The Soviet Union ceased to exist twenty five years ago. One of the causes of its downfall was the use of fiat values for goods - for example, collective farms grew grain, which was sold at fiat prices and made into bread, sold at fiat prices, which the farms bought as animal fodder because it was cheaper than just growing grain to feed to animals.
    If you have the resources then you do not need "Money". All that is required is human labour. Give them a wage for their services.

  32. #71
    Senior Member true and just's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    107
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    27 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    37

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    But then, the reason why countries such as the UK are able to spend such amounts is because of the various taxes: income tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax, inheritance tax, stamp duties, among various others. In an Islamic state, there would not be such taxes, meaning that most people will then have a larger disposable income and, as a result, probably would not have to rely on the state for education and healthcare.
    All money is debt and all tax does is stop you from paying off that debt.

  33. #72
    Odan Morose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    17,558
    Mentioned
    649 Post(s)
    Quoted
    7999 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    1249

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by true and just View Post
    All money is debt and all tax does is stop you from paying off that debt.
    That is true, the UK's national debt is alarmingly disgusting.

    But you said the 2.5% zakat would not be enough to fund state education and healthcare, which is true it wouldn't, except under an Islamic state where there are no taxes, it probably would not need to.
    And, bear in mind, zakat need not be the only form of giving.

  34. #73
    Odan
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Gender
    Girl Unspecified
    Posts
    2,165
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1415 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    22

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    But then, the reason why countries such as the UK are able to spend such amounts is because of the various taxes: income tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax, inheritance tax, stamp duties, among various others. In an Islamic state, there would not be such taxes, meaning that most people will then have a larger disposable income and, as a result, probably would not have to rely on the state for education and healthcare.
    The people most dependent on state aid - the poorest - are the ones who pay least in taxes and would proportionately be even poorer if taxation on other people did not support them.
    Quote Originally Posted by true and just View Post
    If you have the resources then you do not need "Money". All that is required is human labour. Give them a wage for their services.
    If there is no "money", how do you give them a wage?
    Your belief that "all money is debt" is mistaken. Money is a measure of the comparative value of goods and products. It is often arbitrary or inefficient, but it works well enough most of the time; certainly better than repeated exchange and negotiation.

  35. #74
    Odan Morose's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    17,558
    Mentioned
    649 Post(s)
    Quoted
    7999 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    1249

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    The people most dependent on state aid - the poorest - are the ones who pay least in taxes and would proportionately be even poorer if taxation on other people did not support them.
    True, but then what is the proportion of these households? - Because the majority in a country like the UK are those middle earners who are hit most by the taxes, and (possibly therefore) could not afford private education / healthcare.

    I think the extremely poor who pay no taxes yet claim state aid are a minority.

  36. #75
    Senior Member true and just's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    107
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    27 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    37

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    The people most dependent on state aid - the poorest - are the ones who pay least in taxes and would proportionately be even poorer if taxation on other people did not support them.
    If there is no "money", how do you give them a wage?
    Your belief that "all money is debt" is mistaken. Money is a measure of the comparative value of goods and products. It is often arbitrary or inefficient, but it works well enough most of the time; certainly better than repeated exchange and negotiation.
    All money in circulation is debt. Money comes from the central bank. Governments borrow it and issue bonds to be paid with interest.

    Unless you are telling me that banks give out loans with zero interest. Do your research and look at where money comes from.

  37. #76

    Account Disabled

    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    7
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    0

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Ok people, no country can call itself a democracy while it engages in an active occupation. No country can call itself democratic when it has various levels of citizenship with different rights. Israel is as much a democracy as China is communist. In other words, Israel is only a democracy if you choose to ignore the other half of the picture.

    By contrast, screwed up as they may be, Lebanon and Tunisia are nonetheless democratic nations, and many of their problems and corruptions arise out from the difficulties of trying to equally represent their diverse populations. The Country I am from Morocco which I am ashamed to be has major problems

    You see, it's easy to be "democratic" when you simply destroy those who disagree.

  38. #77
    Abu-Tawheed Saif-Uddin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    34,022
    Mentioned
    194 Post(s)
    Quoted
    5057 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    908

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by true and just View Post
    People keep on going on about democracy.

    How Israel is the only democracy in the middle east.

    If you ask me, democracy does not work.

    It's like going to a restaurant and being told that you can eat whatever you want as long as it is Chicken or a Cheese Burger.
    Democracy and Islam are opposites,

    This issue of the Kufr of Democracy has been discussed in various threads several times on Ummah Forums.

    Democracy is basically the rule of the people for the people, by the people,

    Mob rule in other words.

    Whereas in Islam we have the Rule of Allah عز و جل for the people, by righteous men,

    http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

    "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

    – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

  39. #78
    Odan
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Gender
    Girl Unspecified
    Posts
    2,165
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1415 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    22

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    True, but then what is the proportion of these households? - Because the majority in a country like the UK are those middle earners who are hit most by the taxes, and (possibly therefore) could not afford private education / healthcare.

    I think the extremely poor who pay no taxes yet claim state aid are a minority.
    Everyone in a modern society pays tax, if by no other means, through VAT.
    About 40% of the UK' GDP is state expenditure, mainly paid for by taxes, current and future. The rich pay more - both absolutely and proportionally - but everyone also receives state aid.
    Quote Originally Posted by true and just View Post
    All money in circulation is debt. Money comes from the central bank. Governments borrow it and issue bonds to be paid with interest.

    Unless you are telling me that banks give out loans with zero interest. Do your research and look at where money comes from.
    The Central Bank in most countries is controlled by the government.

  40. #79
    Senior Member true and just's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    107
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    27 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    37

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Everyone in a modern society pays tax, if by no other means, through VAT.
    About 40% of the UK' GDP is state expenditure, mainly paid for by taxes, current and future. The rich pay more - both absolutely and proportionally - but everyone also receives state aid.
    The Central Bank in most countries is controlled by the government.
    Yes controlled by the Government but it is still a private institution with share holders. It lends money to the government and to other banks with interest.

    All money in circulation is owed to some one.

  41. #80
    Odan ALAS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    2,083
    Mentioned
    118 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1139 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    32

    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by true and just View Post
    People keep on going on about democracy.How Israel is the only democracy in the middle east.If you ask me, democracy does not work.It's like going to a restaurant and being told that you can eat whatever you want as long as it is Chicken or a Cheese Burger.
    By the word "democracy" one may mean many things.

    Democracy itself is an ideology which I think it means everything should be consistent with the will of majority of people in a society. Regardless of whether this is feasible or not, Islam never endorses this belief. For example majority of people in one state of USA vote for homosexuality ! Islam never endorses this.

    By the word democracy one may mean will of people. Yes nowadays election and referendum is a method and a tool to evaluate the will of people in a society. Islam recognizes the will of people. Imposing a government on a society and the people is not consistent with the Sunnah of Rasulullah. The revolution of Rasulullah was a popular revolution, most of people themselves gathered around Rasulullah so that he could establish the Islamic government in Medina. This is the Sunnah.

    Will of people in the form of election and referendum is never the criteria of being right or wrong and vote of people can never be the criteria of religious legitimacy. But it is important for sure and Islam recognizes the will of people. In fact without the support of people a government can not last very long.

    So there should be something between, not dictatorship and not pure democracy, Rasulullah was not a dictator, most of people loved him, respected him and accepted him but for sure everything was according to the Sharia.

    By the way who has said Israel is the only democracy or is Israel a democracy at all !?
    If Israel is a democracy they should make a referendum in Palestine (including those whose lands are stolen!) so that everyone knows how much Israel is legitimate. Israel is not legitimate even according to the secular international laws, let alone .............
    Israel and the inhabitants of Israel are all occupiers.
    Note: I am a shia.

 

 

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
All times are GMT. The time now is 02:27 PM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2
Copyright © 2017 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.2.7 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Skin By: PurevB.com

MPADC.com Islamic Web Hosting | Muslim Ad Network | Islamic Nasheeds | Islamic Mobile App Developement Android & iPhone | Islamic Web Hosting : Muslim Designers : Labbayk Nasheeds : silk route jilbab: Hijab: : Web Islamic Newsletter: Islamic Web Hosting

Students of Arabic Forum | Hijab Shop