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  1. #1
    Senior Member true and just's Avatar
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    Democracy in Islam

    People keep on going on about democracy.

    How Israel is the only democracy in the middle east.

    If you ask me, democracy does not work.

    It's like going to a restaurant and being told that you can eat whatever you want as long as it is Chicken or a Cheese Burger.

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    Odan Morose's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Democracies lead to too much time being wasted discussing stuff. A leader should be decisive.

    Anyway no such thing as a democracy. It is just a fallacy.

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Im probably going to get a lot of hate for this but in all fairness democracy has been the most successful type of system for the non muslims of course. To say it doesnt work is just flat our wrong, it does work, just not for muslims.

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    Odan Morose's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by AishaGirl View Post
    Im probably going to get a lot of hate for this but in all fairness democracy has been the most successful type of system for the non muslims of course. To say it doesnt work is just flat our wrong, it does work, just not for muslims.
    Has it? Or, has an image of democracy, disguised corruption, worked well for the disbelievers?

    The disbelievers became successful at the expense of the Muslims. Remember there was a time when Europe was poor and deprived while the Muslims lived in luxury. And the only reason why the Europeans found success is because of evil and corruption which the Muslims could not rival. It has nothing to do with democracy.

    And in case you're unaware, majority of the public ads displeased with their government. Each election they elect another moron successor only to be disappointed once more.

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    Democracies lead to too much time being wasted discussing stuff. A leader should be decisive.

    Anyway no such thing as a democracy. It is just a fallacy.
    See this type of thinking is counter productive, consider what you just said and then try to apply that to history, although one leader may be able to produce great change, what about the next? This is the main problem with monarchies and other types of government, you will simply get a leader who is unqualified. Democracies are have produced some of the strongest nations today such as the United States which has lasted for more than two hundred years. Although there are problems with democracy, to say they sit around and talk too much and do nothing is wrong.

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    Odan Morose's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zayndi View Post
    See this type of thinking is counter productive, consider what you just said and then try to apply that to history, although one leader may be able to produce great change, what about the next? This is the main problem with monarchies and other types of government, you will simply get a leader who is unqualified. Democracies are have produced some of the strongest nations today such as the United States which has lasted for more than two hundred years. Although there are problems with democracy, to say they sit around and talk too much and do nothing is wrong.
    Oh my, where do we begin with this?

    1. The USA isn't a great nation, it is a corrupt nation recognised as such by other kuffs. It is also a racist state that only gives power to the whites, and is a murdering state.
    And the USA did not reach prosperity through democracy. It was through evil and corruption.

    2. It's not a democracy; the only thing that is democratic about it is that the leader is elected by vote (and even then not sure if that happens since votes are probably rigged); but in the end, the country is run by an elite few and they make the decisions.

    And my comment was a joke by the way. Sort of as a mock of democracy.

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    Has it? Or, has an image of democracy, disguised corruption, worked well for the disbelievers?

    The disbelievers became successful at the expense of the Muslims. Remember there was a time when Europe was poor and deprived while the Muslims lived in luxury. And the only reason why the Europeans found success is because of evil and corruption which the Muslims could not rival. It has nothing to do with democracy.

    And in case you're unaware, majority of the public ads displeased with their government. Each election they elect another moron successor only to be disappointed once more.
    Some of your reasons are wrong however, historically, Europe didn't exactly embrace democracy until well into the twentieth century. What about America, their government is one of the most stable and longlasting there is today and they were the first nation to have democracy as we know it today. Would you care to clarify how with "evil and corruption" they became powerful? I think it was moreso geopolitics which allowed America to get strong, a lack of powerful neighbors, lots of space to expand and the Manifest Destiny which allowed to initatially become a powerful force early on.

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    Has it? Or, has an image of democracy, disguised corruption, worked well for the disbelievers?

    The disbelievers became successful at the expense of the Muslims. Remember there was a time when Europe was poor and deprived while the Muslims lived in luxury. And the only reason why the Europeans found success is because of evil and corruption which the Muslims could not rival. It has nothing to do with democracy.

    And in case you're unaware, majority of the public ads displeased with their government. Each election they elect another moron successor only to be disappointed once more.
    Sure, it's impossible to please everyone but consider the recent EU referendum that took place here in the UK.

    The process is simple, you go to the voting booths to vote on whether the UK should leave the EU or stay in the EU. More people voted to leave therefore the UK leaves.

    Imagine if 20% of the UK wanted to leave and the leader who was a dictator also wanted to leave, this would cause uproar because the majority of people do not want to leave. In the case of the UK David Cameron wanted to remain but what he wants is not important, its what the people want and the majority, although only barely, voted to leave.

    I mean yes Muslims get the crap end of democracy because democracy also leads to invasion of muslim lands time and time again but democracy as a system is incredibly successful for the non muslims which is why they will never change it in my opinion.

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    Senior Member AH_L's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Democracy + nwo= yccarow demon

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    Oh my, where do we begin with this?

    1. The USA isn't a great nation, it is a corrupt nation recognised as such by other kuffs. It is also a racist state that only gives power to the whites, and is a murdering state.
    And the USA did not reach prosperity through democracy. It was through evil and corruption.

    2. It's not a democracy; the only thing that is democratic about it is that the leader is elected by vote (and even then not sure if that happens since votes are probably rigged); but in the end, the country is run by an elite few and they make the decisions.

    And my comment was a joke by the way. Sort of as a mock of democracy.
    Yet it is the strongest nation today, I'm not sure what your definition of great is but to me it means the most powerful. Also, I'm not sure where you get the idea that it only gives power to whites, that was the 60's and 70's, it is 2016 and everyone regardless of race is accepted in the US. I thought the OP was referring to democratic republics. There is really is no such thing as a pure democracy and no votes are not rigged at all, I volunteered at a local ballot count and saw no evidence of voting fraud. But to respond that the country is run by an elite few, I thought you didn't like democracy, shouldn't
    you like being ruled by an oligarchy?

  11. #11
    Odan Morose's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zayndi View Post
    Some of your reasons are wrong however, historically, Europe didn't exactly embrace democracy until well into the twentieth century. What about America, their government is one of the most stable and longlasting there is today and they were the first nation to have democracy as we know it today. Would you care to clarify how with "evil and corruption" they became powerful? I think it was moreso geopolitics which allowed America to get strong, a lack of powerful neighbors, lots of space to expand and the Manifest Destiny which allowed to initatially become a powerful force early on.
    First there's the election of a president which constitutes one characteristic of a democracy; does the USA really fulfil this? Because there are always reports of vote rigging etc. Even now with Trump. But assume it meets this condition...

    Members of the public ought to be allowed participation in the politics of the country. What is the demographics of politicians? Most are wealthy and come from privileged backgrounds and private schools. So why are the poor such a minoriry?

    The rights of all citizens should be protected. Can the USA really boast this virtue? I think not.

    The rule of law applies to everybody equally; in the USA, does it really?

    There is no such thing as a democracy. It's just a concept, aspects of which are observed in order to provide a false sense of power to the people, so as to avoid an uprising. But in the end, the affairs of the country and the people is dictated by a corrupt, select few.

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    Odan Morose's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    The USA might be powerful today, but that came about through invasion of other countries and exploitation of its people.

    You forget that the Muslims too were once very powerful and it was not due to do each either. And the only reason why they fell from power was due to a lack of Islam, infighting and conflict caused by certain sects, and in some cases greed for power.

    But early Muslim civilisation should show you that democracy is not necessary for a powerful and prosperous state.

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    Wanderer Stoic Believer's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Democracy gives legislation of laws to the people, and is thus incompatible with Islam.

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zayndi View Post
    See this type of thinking is counter productive, consider what you just said and then try to apply that to history, although one leader may be able to produce great change, what about the next? This is the main problem with monarchies and other types of government, you will simply get a leader who is unqualified. Democracies are have produced some of the strongest nations today such as the United States which has lasted for more than two hundred years. Although there are problems with democracy, to say they sit around and talk too much and do nothing is wrong.
    What type of government do you support for the Muslim world?

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    But in the end, the affairs of the country and the people is dictated by a corrupt, select few.
    Provide your proof please.

    Watch him link some illuminati Rothschild nonsense. Democratic countries are the most stable for a reason, look at the UK, USA, Switzerland, Australia, Canada, Norway, Sweden etc etc. In fact here is a map highlighting these countries. Where you see red typically there is corruption, dictatorship, civil unrest and overthrowing of governments by the people because they hate their way of life. Where you see green you see continued peaceful transition from one leader to another, no civil unrest, no overthrowing of governments etc.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democr...racy_Index.svg

    Yes there is injustice in some parts, yes some people are treated differently to others. But wallahi you can never please everyone, no matter what system you use there will always be someone, somewhere who doesn't like it.

    I am not supporting the democratic way, Im simply stating facts.

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    Senior Member AH_L's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    In a democracey it is commonly assumed that the majority get their way but that is not true in fact it is the oposite the majority would most likely never get there wayy

    And why because of the need to compromise ideals

  17. #17
    Odan Morose's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by AishaGirl View Post
    Provide your proof please.

    Watch him link some illuminati Rothschild nonsense. Democratic countries are the most stable for a reason, look at the UK, USA, Switzerland, Australia, Canada, Norway, Sweden etc etc. In fact here is a map highlighting these countries. Where you see red typically there is corruption, dictatorship, civil unrest and overthrowing of governments by the people because they hate their way of life. Where you see green you see continued peaceful transition from one leader to another, no civil unrest, no overthrowing of governments etc.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democr...racy_Index.svg

    Yes there is injustice in some parts, yes some people are treated differently to others. But wallahi you can never please everyone, no matter what system you use there will always be someone, somewhere who doesn't like it.

    I am not supporting the democratic way, Im simply stating facts.
    Yes, the uk was so democratic when it chose to invade Iraq despite people being against it.

    France was a good example of a democracy too when it decided to violate the rights of its citizens when it banned the niqab.

    The USA is so corrupt. Otherwise, they would be transparent in their operations and there would not have been all that drama over Hilary's email accounts or the wiki leaks incident.

    Of course they'll tell you it's for national security though...

    If you honestly believe 9/11 wasn't an inside job, you are half mad.

    "Wallahi you cannot please everyone"... no, how about just trying to please the majority? But you can't even do that. That's why there's a huge disparity in the distribution of wealth, and the majority are left unhappy.

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    First there's the election of a president which constitutes one characteristic of a democracy; does the USA really fulfil this? Because there are always reports of vote rigging etc. Even now with Trump. But assume it meets this condition...

    Members of the public ought to be allowed participation in the politics of the country. What is the demographics of politicians? Most are wealthy and come from privileged backgrounds and private schools. So why are the poor such a minoriry?

    The rights of all citizens should be protected. Can the USA really boast this virtue? I think not.

    The rule of law applies to everybody equally; in the USA, does it really?

    There is no such thing as a democracy. It's just a concept, aspects of which are observed in order to provide a false sense of power to the people, so as to avoid an uprising. But in the end, the affairs of the country and the people is dictated by a corrupt, select few.
    I think you are reading to much into other things, democracy by definition is a government which derives its power from the consent of the governed. You say that most politicians come from wealthy backgrounds yet despite that, some poor people still can become an elected official. For example, Obama did not come from a background of wealth but he managed to become president, again what about countries that have a nondemocratic governments, They are ruled by an elite class which could care less about its people. At least democracy is forced to appeal to its voters in order to have power. What is stopping a king or dictatator from not caring about his people? Absoultely nothing. The rights of citizens are protected more in the US than in any other country, again what about other non democratic countries, it leaders have the ability to stop all over people's rights and there is nothing to check them. Furthermore, the fact that the rule of law is present should be a sign of freedom, although it is stated, humans are inherently flawed and as you said sometimes the law doesn't equally apply to everyone. In democracy, people have some sort of say into who they vote into power whether through organization, fundraising, speeches etc.. Again attempt to find this in a monarchy or dictatorship where power is passed down and tell me if the people there have more say in the person that holds power.

  19. #19
    Odan Morose's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zayndi View Post
    I think you are reading to much into other things, democracy by definition is a government which derives its power from the consent of the governed. You say that most politicians come from wealthy backgrounds yet despite that, some poor people still can become an elected official. For example, Obama did not come from a background of wealth but he managed to become president, again what about countries that have a nondemocratic governments, They are ruled by an elite class which could care less about its people. At least democracy is forced to appeal to its voters in order to have power. What is stopping a king or dictatator from not caring about his people? Absoultely nothing. The rights of citizens are protected more in the US than in any other country, again what about other non democratic countries, it leaders have the ability to stop all over people's rights and there is nothing to check them. Furthermore, the fact that the rule of law is present should be a sign of freedom, although it is stated, humans are inherently flawed and as you said sometimes the law doesn't equally apply to everyone. In democracy, people have some sort of say into who they vote into power whether through organization, fundraising, speeches etc.. Again attempt to find this in a monarchy or dictatorship where power is passed down and tell me if the people there have more say in the person that holds power.
    In the early civilisations of Muslims, the people were doing much better and that was without a democracy. You keep going on about how the USA protects equal rights etc yet just look at how the bladks are treated. They are marginalised. It's not really a democracy when the power really lies with the select few.

    And the laws that are passed, they are constructed by humans and you've already admitted humans are flawed so how do you know these laws are fair and just? The democratic nations do not have a criterion as they should.

    And allowing the public to vote on the leader is a stupid idea as most people are imbeciles anyway. Some one mentioned brexit; did you know that after the vote, the most popular search on google was "what is the EU"? This is why, when you allow the public to vote on the leader, you end up with morons as seems to be the case each time.

    Wow you really admire the USA. Do you wish for all Muslim countries to become like the US?
    Last edited by Morose; 26-12-16 at 06:22 PM.

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    Yes, the uk was so democratic when it chose to invade Iraq despite people being against it.

    France was a good example of a democracy too when it decided to violate the rights of its citizens when it banned the niqab.

    The USA is so corrupt. Otherwise, they would be transparent in their operations and there would not have been all that drama over Hilary's email accounts or the wiki leaks incident.

    Of course they'll tell you it's for national security though...

    If you honestly believe 9/11 wasn't an inside job, you are half mad.

    "Wallahi you cannot please everyone"... no, how about just trying to please the majority? But you can't even do that. That's why there's a huge disparity in the distribution of wealth, and the majority are left unhappy.
    I never said 9/11 wasn't an inside job dont put words in my mouth. I believe the CIA knew 9/11 was going to happen but they allowed it so they could use it as an excuse to invade.

    They tried to ban the Niqab and guess what? The people complained about it and told the government it was wrong so the decision was overturned.

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    The USA might be powerful today, but that came about through invasion of other countries and exploitation of its people.

    You forget that the Muslims too were once very powerful and it was not due to do each either. And the only reason why they fell from power was due to a lack of Islam, infighting and conflict caused by certain sects, and in some cases greed for power.

    But early Muslim civilisation should show you that democracy is not necessary for a powerful and prosperous state.
    But the times have changed, back then many people lived in a fedual system and there wasn't factories, industrialization, cars, electricity etc... Back then the amount of power you had was dictated by the amount of land you owned and there was no centralised government. Each noble held a plot of land which was worked by people and if you were a noble in a city, people paid tax and you made profit
    but now in order to have a properous state there needs to be modernization, good standard of living and investment along with education of your people

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    Odan Morose's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by AishaGirl View Post
    I never said 9/11 wasn't an inside job dont put words in my mouth. I believe the CIA knew 9/11 was going to happen but they allowed it so they could use it as an excuse to invade.

    They tried to ban the Niqab and guess what? The people complained about it and told the government it was wrong so the decision was overturned.
    Oh, how very wonderful! They decided to retract on their decision to ban the niqab. If only France would have done the same.

    So if acknowledge what you have just done about 9/11, then you must acknowledge the presence of corruption too?

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    Odan Morose's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zayndi View Post
    But the times have changed, back then many people lived in a fedual system and there wasn't factories, industrialization, cars, electricity etc... Back then the amount of power you had was dictated by the amount of land you owned and there was no centralised government. Each noble held a plot of land which was worked by people and if you were a noble in a city, people paid tax and you made profit
    but now in order to have a properous state there needs to be modernization, good standard of living and investment along with education of your people
    And you're saying that all of that is not possible except under a democracy?

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    In the early civilisations of Muslims, the people were doing much better and that was without a democracy. You keep going on about how the USA protects equal rights etc yet just look at how the bladks are treated. They are marginalised. It's not really a democracy when the power really lies with the select few.

    And the laws that are passed, they are constructed by humans and you've already admitted humans are flawed so how do you know these laws are fair and just? The democratic nations do not have a criterion as they should.

    And allowing the public to vote on the leader is a stupid idea as most people are imbeciles anyway. Some one mentioned brexit; did you know that after the vote, the most popular search on google was "what is the EU"? This is why, when you allow the public to vote on the leader, you end up with morons as seems to be the case each time.

    Wow you really admire the USA. Do you wish for all Muslim countries to become like the US?
    Where do you black people being discriminated against on a widescale basis, its like you read Reconstruction and the Jim Crow Laws and decided that was what proves America as racist. Racism is a thing of the past in the US, the KKK used to have millions of members, now they don't number more than 30,000. Lol, I admire the US? You didn't reply to any of the things I just posted but I admire the US system because there is always a peaceful tranisition of power, unlike what you see in monarchies or dictatorships which are very unstable. I think that democracy is a better alternative than a dictatorship/Oligarchy or monarchy, do you really want to live in a place where the leaders could care less about your troubles?

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    And you're saying that all of that is not possible except under a democracy?
    Of course it is but to compare todays problems to that of early muslims makes no sense as there are very different problems facing the two, the two are extremely dissimilar in the current issues of the time.

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    Oh, how very wonderful! They decided to retract on their decision to ban the niqab. If only France would have done the same.

    So if acknowledge what you have just done about 9/11, then you must acknowledge the presence of corruption too?
    Of course there is corruption in democratic countries, in fact every country in the world probably has some form of corruption I totally agree with you. You are missing what Im saying though, you can never have a perfect government of any system, even a caliph ruling by Sharia there will still be corruption because humans are corruptible.

    Im sure you have heard this phrase before, Islam is perfect but Muslims are not.

    If there existed a Sharia run country that was operated correctly, the people were happy with their chosen leaders and everything was working more or less as it should, then I would absolutely say that is better than democracy. However until such a place exists Im happy living under a democratic country. You dont have to support a system to be happy living under it.

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    Oh, how very wonderful! They decided to retract on their decision to ban the niqab. If only France would have done the same.

    So if acknowledge what you have just done about 9/11, then you must acknowledge the presence of corruption too?
    So coruption only exists because of democracy, people are always going to be corrupt no matter if they live in any type of government, yet for some reason non democratic governments tend to have more corruption and problems but that's none of my buisness

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by AishaGirl View Post
    Provide your proof please.

    Watch him link some illuminati Rothschild nonsense. Democratic countries are the most stable for a reason, look at the UK, USA, Switzerland, Australia, Canada, Norway, Sweden etc etc. In fact here is a map highlighting these countries. Where you see red typically there is corruption, dictatorship, civil unrest and overthrowing of governments by the people because they hate their way of life. Where you see green you see continued peaceful transition from one leader to another, no civil unrest, no overthrowing of governments etc.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democr...racy_Index.svg

    Yes there is injustice in some parts, yes some people are treated differently to others. But wallahi you can never please everyone, no matter what system you use there will always be someone, somewhere who doesn't like it.

    I am not supporting the democratic way, Im simply stating facts.
    Sister these countries make permissible every kind of disgusting and filthy thing, and they don't rule by Allah's rules. In what way are they successful? I am an American, from arguably the most corrupt and immoral country in the west, when Democracy leads to such immorality, how could it be successful?

    American Democracy is the worst. The presidential system creates massive legislative gridlock, so the president is always fighting with the legislature to get laws passed. The electoral system is terrible and marginalizes smaller parties and ethnic minorities. The Federal system lead to many crises and a civil war in the past, and continues to cause countless court battles and fights between the central governments and the states.

    That's just what I know of America, and I'm sure if you go from country to country you would find more issues
    وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
    They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

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    Odan Morose's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zayndi View Post
    Where do you black people being discriminated against on a widescale basis, its like you read Reconstruction and the Jim Crow Laws and decided that was what proves America as racist. Racism is a thing of the past in the US, the KKK used to have millions of members, now they don't number more than 30,000. Lol, I admire the US? You didn't reply to any of the things I just posted but I admire the US system because there is always a peaceful tranisition of power, unlike what you see in monarchies or dictatorships which are very unstable. I think that democracy is a better alternative than a dictatorship/Oligarchy or monarchy, do you really want to live in a place where the leaders could care less about your troubles?
    I did reply to you. Peaceful transition of power, that's what impresses you? Well there would be a peaceful transition of power in other countries too if the USA did not meddle with them. But the problem is, these countries build stable countries for themselves whilst destabilising others.
    And you keep mentioning all the good attributes of the country whereas I'm trying to tell you such attributes do not owe their origin to democracy, rather to corruption. The USA reached prosperity through its foreign affairs which involved invasions and exploitation of other nations. The USA could be a democracy or not, it would still have the same success if the policies did not change.
    Whatever "good" you see in these countries, is not from democracy. You do not need democracy for stability because Qatar or Brunei aren't exactly unstable.

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zayndi View Post
    So coruption only exists because of democracy, people are always going to be corrupt no matter if they live in any type of government, yet for some reason non democratic governments tend to have more corruption and problems but that's none of my buisness
    Here in the west, its far more covert. Look at lobbyists, its legalized bribery and corruption, subhanAllah

    Look at things like the panama papers. Trillions of dollars kept offshore by western politicians and corporations.

    Look at military and government contracts, and how they are distributed to friends and patrons of the president.

    The US and western countries have the same corrupt cronyism as any third world country, if anything, its worse, because in the US its legalized and put right in your face, but in other countries its done under the table
    وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
    They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

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    Odan Morose's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zayndi View Post
    So coruption only exists because of democracy, people are always going to be corrupt no matter if they live in any type of government, yet for some reason non democratic governments tend to have more corruption and problems but that's none of my buisness
    No

    Corruption can happen and does happen even in an autocratic or other state.

    The point I have been making is this: you say all the success western nations have is because of democracy. I say no, it's because of other factors and it would make no difference whether they were a democracy or not, they'd still be successful today because of their evil foreign policies and exploitation of other countries.

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    موحد Abd al-Rahman's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Stoic Believer View Post
    Democracy gives legislation of laws to the people, and is thus incompatible with Islam.
    Conversation should have ended here imo.

    If a country gives people the power to legislate, they have failed in the akhirah, so they have failed period
    وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
    They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
    Sister these countries make permissible every kind of disgusting and filthy thing, and they don't rule by Allah's rules. In what way are they successful? I am an American, from arguably the most corrupt and immoral country in the west, when Democracy leads to such immorality, how could it be successful?

    American Democracy is the worst. The presidential system creates massive legislative gridlock, so the president is always fighting with the legislature to get laws passed. The electoral system is terrible and marginalizes smaller parties and ethnic minorities. The Federal system lead to many crises and a civil war in the past, and continues to cause countless court battles and fights between the central governments and the states.

    That's just what I know of America, and I'm sure if you go from country to country you would find more issues
    Lol make permissible every kind of disgusting and filthy thing? Its not like non democratic countries don't allow these things. In your opinion American democracy is the worst but it seems obvious you didn't pay attention in class or realize the checks and balances system which allows for no one branch to gain more power than the other. "the president is always fighting with the legislature to get laws passed", I'm pretty sure Congress makes laws and passes them, not the President brother. Also, your opinion on the electoral college is just that, an opinion, how does the electoral system marginalize minorities although I do agree that it limits smaller parties. In my opinion, all states should have the system that Nebraska or Maine has where electoral votes are split however, that is a debate for another day. Furthermore, the federal system is good in that local laws specific to the problem of each state are passed apply only to its inhabitants, the majority of of laws you follow are state laws and the cause of the civil war was not the Federal system. It was the debate on slavery, the South wanted to spread slavery while the North wanted to stop the expansion of it. After the dredscott decision and the election of Lincoln, the South could not accept him for his freesoiler views and then choose to secede form the Union so the cause of the civil war was because of the election of Lincoln and their pro slavery views, not becasue of the federal system.

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Morose View Post
    No

    Corruption can happen and does happen even in an autocratic or other state.

    The point I have been making is this: you say all the success western nations have is because of democracy. I say no, it's because of other factors and it would make no difference whether they were a democracy or not, they'd still be successful today because of their evil foreign policies and exploitation of other countries.
    So let's go back in time and look at the foundations of democracy, to be accepting of others beleifs and to draw power from the will of the people. Democracy has shown itself to be powerful because of geopolitics and it has shown to be better and more long lasting because of the fact it gives the people power. What about America, the reason it initially gained power was not because of imperialism, in the eighteenth and nineteenth century, it had virtually no intentions to expand, America early on was very against imperilism and colonization. I always hate when some people say that western countries exploited other countries and only became powerful through that. Sure Western countries did exploit others but they became powerful because of early industrialization and development of technology, Japan managed to industrialize in a short amount of time which allowed then to defeat Russia in the first sino-japanese war.

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    Wanderer Stoic Believer's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zayndi View Post
    Lol make permissible every kind of disgusting and filthy thing? Its not like non democratic countries don't allow these things. In your opinion American democracy is the worst but it seems obvious you didn't pay attention in class or realize the checks and balances system which allows for no one branch to gain more power than the other. "the president is always fighting with the legislature to get laws passed", I'm pretty sure Congress makes laws and passes them, not the President brother. Also, your opinion on the electoral college is just that, an opinion, how does the electoral system marginalize minorities although I do agree that it limits smaller parties. In my opinion, all states should have the system that Nebraska or Maine has where electoral votes are split however, that is a debate for another day. Furthermore, the federal system is good in that local laws specific to the problem of each state are passed apply only to its inhabitants, the majority of of laws you follow are state laws and the cause of the civil war was not the Federal system. It was the debate on slavery, the South wanted to spread slavery while the North wanted to stop the expansion of it. After the dredscott decision and the election of Lincoln, the South could not accept him for his freesoiler views and then choose to secede form the Union so the cause of the civil war was because of the election of Lincoln and their pro slavery views, not becasue of the federal system.
    Man, you really love America.

    Also, do answer my question. What kind of government do you support for the Muslim world? Also, what is your opinion on establishing Sharia and a khilafah?

  36. #36
    YOUR FAVOURITE AKHI 2016 Magic.'s Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zayndi View Post
    Some of your reasons are wrong however, historically, Europe didn't exactly embrace democracy until well into the twentieth century. What about America, their government is one of the most stable and longlasting there is today and they were the first nation to have democracy as we know it today. Would you care to clarify how with "evil and corruption" they became powerful? I think it was moreso geopolitics which allowed America to get strong, a lack of powerful neighbors, lots of space to expand and the Manifest Destiny which allowed to initatially become a powerful force early on.

    Princeton, Havard, Yale university were funded by opium money. The grandfather of the state of secretary John Kerry was opium dealer and made a lot of money and put a lot of it into the USA economy.
    Last edited by Magic.; 26-12-16 at 08:27 PM.
    8 powerful habits to succeed


    1. Wake up early!
    2. Do it as soon as possible, you could die tonight so make the best of today
    3. Remember your life is unique, don't compare yourself to others. Use that jealousy as an energy to make your life a success"
    4. Have healthy habits. Set a time each day to exercise. Try with the mindset you're only going to do some jumping jacks for 5 seconds and the next thing you know, you're doing a workout!
    5. Read, read, read. Ponder over the Qur'an, learn more. Put the idiot box (TV) away
    6. Take note. Desires make slaves out of kings and patience makes kings out of slaves.
    7. Results aren't just worldly. Results are also about perseverance, retaining dignity, being honest, being honourable, doing good unto others.
    8. Always encourage others especially our brothers and sisters, let them know making mistakes is okay, we all make mistakes, do not ever undermine them and make them feel incompetent. This id also true for the dunya, so what if they don't get the maths sum right the first time, that is what LEARNING is.

    NEW UPDATE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJubtizAEfU


    Watch this when you're distressed!

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    YOUR FAVOURITE AKHI 2016 Magic.'s Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zayndi View Post
    But the times have changed, back then many people lived in a fedual system and there wasn't factories, industrialization, cars, electricity etc... Back then the amount of power you had was dictated by the amount of land you owned and there was no centralised government. Each noble held a plot of land which was worked by people and if you were a noble in a city, people paid tax and you made profit
    but now in order to have a properous state there needs to be modernization, good standard of living and investment along with education of your people

    But they have been achieved by every civilisation. So by that logic, every civilisation was great.

    You need to separate the way a country runs and the products it can form.

    How did a liberal democracy produce Microsoft?
    8 powerful habits to succeed


    1. Wake up early!
    2. Do it as soon as possible, you could die tonight so make the best of today
    3. Remember your life is unique, don't compare yourself to others. Use that jealousy as an energy to make your life a success"
    4. Have healthy habits. Set a time each day to exercise. Try with the mindset you're only going to do some jumping jacks for 5 seconds and the next thing you know, you're doing a workout!
    5. Read, read, read. Ponder over the Qur'an, learn more. Put the idiot box (TV) away
    6. Take note. Desires make slaves out of kings and patience makes kings out of slaves.
    7. Results aren't just worldly. Results are also about perseverance, retaining dignity, being honest, being honourable, doing good unto others.
    8. Always encourage others especially our brothers and sisters, let them know making mistakes is okay, we all make mistakes, do not ever undermine them and make them feel incompetent. This id also true for the dunya, so what if they don't get the maths sum right the first time, that is what LEARNING is.

    NEW UPDATE

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJubtizAEfU


    Watch this when you're distressed!

  38. #38
    الله أكبر ServantofArRahman's Avatar
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Israel isn't a democracy it's an ethnocracy.
    "What is asked today is uniting the ranks of the Muwahideen, and to re-unite the Muslims. And directing the efforts to confront the challenges/threats of the Majoos, Tawagith and their donkeys the Murji'ah and the secularists."- Shayk Sulayman Al Alwan

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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Zayndi View Post
    See this type of thinking is counter productive, consider what you just said and then try to apply that to history, although one leader may be able to produce great change, what about the next? This is the main problem with monarchies and other types of government, you will simply get a leader who is unqualified. Democracies are have produced some of the strongest nations today such as the United States which has lasted for more than two hundred years. Although there are problems with democracy, to say they sit around and talk too much and do nothing is wrong.
    You are wrong. Democracy is completely controlled by media and this is nothing new. I've had many professor talk about how media outlets or certain artists can completely control how your citizens think and therefor which leader they choose. The democratic system is hardly any democratic, it's just a system where the guy that is backed with enough financial support gets elected. That's how it works and how it always will work.

  40. #40
    Odan
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    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Simply put, I would much prefer to live in a democratic state than a dictatorship like in the middle east.
    Democracy may not be perfect, however, ask most people in states that are otherwise, where they would prefer.

    Sadly, I have a child who is disillusioned with Islam. When I asked her for a reason, she gave examples of Isis, and the mayhem in the Islamic countries.
    I could not reply. Any ideas about what I can say or do?

 

 

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