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  1. #1
    Alhamdulilah eesa the kiwi's Avatar
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    New Muslim support thread

    :

    Figured a thread like this would be a good idea (dunno if it will take off though)

    Being converts to Islam you don't always get the support you need irl so if you want advice or just want to rant you can post here
    @Rifqah @brightest hour

    I'll start, my family is so difficult to be around with Christmas it's not easy. Also something happened with a born "muslim" and my sister that I can't mention here coz I think you lot would start cursing the "Muslim". it's so sad it's not funny
    Last edited by eesa the kiwi; 18-12-16 at 05:57 AM.
    :

    Al-Fudayl ibn ‘Iyaad said:

    “Follow the path of guidance, and do not worry about how few are the people who follow it. Beware of the paths of misguidance, and do not be deceived by the large numbers of those who doomed.” [Al-I’tisaam by Imam Ash-Shaatibi]

  2. #161
    abu sab'a
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rifqah View Post
    I was told it is haram... @nonameakhi

    A contract between two or more parties is haram. All of the insurance contracts are more than two parties apparently.

    I'm not asking you to say where you live but you must not be in the UK.
    Quote Originally Posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    I don't live there but before you do that , I would urge you to speak to someone knowledgeable in the UK regarding this. Do not grab any random fatwa online and just apply it. I mean , I wouldn't do such a thing.

    Ask someone knowledgeable and pious in your own country. There are many people here on this forum from the UK , are you telling me no one here drives? I find that hard to believe.
    insurance is haram and i dont think there are any ulema that say it isnt. yes many people do drive. some simply take out insurance and others, including myself, use methods where we dont. So for example a leasing option

    My imams etc that do drive use the ''no choice'' argument. However its usually a false argument. For example many years ago a bunch of sufis had their pir give a fatwa that mortgage was allowed out of necessity. the same pir later changed the fatwa. The reason being that initially he was asked if it can be done out of necessity and he said yes. then he found out that people can rent and live in council houses so he said its not necessity

    With a car people see it is a necessity but saving money isnt a necessity

  3. #162
    061116 Rifqah's Avatar
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nonameakhi View Post
    insurance is haram and i dont think there are any ulema that say it isnt. yes many people do drive. some simply take out insurance and others, including myself, use methods where we dont. So for example a leasing option

    My imams etc that do drive use the ''no choice'' argument. However its usually a false argument. For example many years ago a bunch of sufis had their pir give a fatwa that mortgage was allowed out of necessity. the same pir later changed the fatwa. The reason being that initially he was asked if it can be done out of necessity and he said yes. then he found out that people can rent and live in council houses so he said its not necessity

    With a car people see it is a necessity but saving money isnt a necessity
    In the UK and for me, the "no choice" option would feel like an excuse to keep my car as, I don't haul heavy materials for my own business or anything, I just use it for going to work and general use. We have other means available here too, trains, buses, bikes and of course leasing (which Inshallah I'll look into).

    Thank you for the information.
    I heard Al-Buḵari say, “I have never eaten leek", So I asked, “And why is that?” He replied, “I hate to annoy anyone with its foul smell"

  4. #163
    abu sab'a
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rifqah View Post
    In the UK and for me, the "no choice" option would feel like an excuse to keep my car as, I don't haul heavy materials for my own business or anything, I just use it for going to work and general use. We have other means available here too, trains, buses, bikes and of course leasing (which Inshallah I'll look into).

    Thank you for the information.
    wa iyyak

    I think the issue for us muslims is how we define necessity. For some I have known being slightly hungry is enough for them to eat a big mac at mcdonalds and they use the ''its halal if hungry'' yet there is a quote from Ayesha ra where she said that a whole month would pass without the family of the Prophet saw making a fire for cooking. Their diet would be dates and water only unless someone gifted them some meat (Bukhari)

    I remember the story of the sahabi who denied the Prophet saw when he was being tortured used by some brother once and when i looked into it I found that this was after 11 days (if i recall correctly) of torture which included hot oil being poured on him.

  5. #164
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    http://www.daruliftaa.com/node/5812

    [B]"However, it should be remembered that if one is obliged by law to have an insurance cover for one’s car, then it would be permissible for one to have insurance up to the minimum level required by law. Since the third party insurance is mandatory by law in many countries, it would be permissible to take up this insurance, for it is impossible for one to avoid it"
    @nonameakhi

    According to this , since it's obliged by law then it's fine.

    Now if you can find away around it , that would be great. If not , you have this.

  6. #165
    061116 Rifqah's Avatar
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    @nonameakhi

    According to this , since it's obliged by law then it's fine.

    Now if you can find away around it , that would be great. If not , you have this.
    There is a way around it in the UK.

    We have public transport that many people, without cars, use just fine.

    Necessity would be, if you really couldn't get around any other way.

    I don't know about other countries, maybe in your country there is not such a good public transport system to use. In the UK that's not the case.
    I heard Al-Buḵari say, “I have never eaten leek", So I asked, “And why is that?” He replied, “I hate to annoy anyone with its foul smell"

  7. #166
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rifqah View Post
    There is a way around it in the UK.

    We have public transport that many people, without cars, use just fine.

    Necessity would be, if you really couldn't get around any other way.

    I don't know about other countries, maybe in your country there is not such a good public transport system to use. In the UK that's not the case.
    I see what you are saying. From what I have read in this specific fatwa above , it's not a matter of necessity. It's a matter of whether or not the law forces you to purchase insurance.
    In Saudi Arabia they have away around this. In iran as well they don't pay insurance for the car , they have some way around it. Here in the west it is by force.

    There is public transit here as well. I've never really thought about this subject too much because all muslims (consensus) drive to the masjid / work. So naturally , you would never think of such a thing.

    In general it is haram. So it's safe to say , if you can avoid it , it is better. But there is a position which permits it , and it is a local position - which makes a difference. (They are more aware of the situation)

  8. #167
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    I see what you are saying. From what I have read in this specific fatwa above , it's not a matter of necessity. It's a matter of whether or not the law forces you to purchase insurance.
    In Saudi Arabia they have away around this. In iran as well they don't pay insurance for the car , they have some way around it. Here in the west it is by force.

    There is public transit here as well. I've never really thought about this subject too much because all muslims (consensus) drive to the masjid / work. So naturally , you would never think of such a thing.

    In general it is haram. So it's safe to say , if you can avoid it , it is better. But there is a position which permits it , and it is a local position - which makes a difference. (They are more aware of the situation)
    Not telling you what to do , but what I would do if I were you - would be to ask someone of knowledgable in my own locality. Someone who you can explain your situation to and know the source will give you a proper advice.

    Not saying what you are reading online is incorrect , but each land has it's own situation and circumstances. Certain options are available in one land which is not another. We have scholars in the west as well. Scholars who have studied abroad and keep relations with the ulama.



    May Allah make it easy for all of us to collectively fear Him.

  9. #168
    061116 Rifqah's Avatar
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    I see what you are saying. From what I have read in this specific fatwa above , it's not a matter of necessity. It's a matter of whether or not the law forces you to purchase insurance.
    In Saudi Arabia they have away around this. In iran as well they don't pay insurance for the car , they have some way around it. Here in the west it is by force.

    There is public transit here as well. I've never really thought about this subject too much because all muslims (consensus) drive to the masjid / work. So naturally , you would never think of such a thing.

    In general it is haram. So it's safe to say , if you can avoid it , it is better. But there is a position which permits it , and it is a local position - which makes a difference. (They are more aware of the situation)
    Yes it is, the fatwa says "...for it is impossible for one to avoid it."

    It's a condition that the person giving the fatwa has stipulated.

    What I'm saying is, it's not impossible to avoid it.
    The law doesn't force anyone in the west to do anything haram. They are not forcing me to own a car brother.
    Last edited by Rifqah; 17-03-17 at 09:27 AM.
    I heard Al-Buḵari say, “I have never eaten leek", So I asked, “And why is that?” He replied, “I hate to annoy anyone with its foul smell"

  10. #169
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rifqah View Post
    Yes it is, the fatwa says "...for if it is impossible for one to avoid."

    It's a condition that the person giving the fatwa has stipulated.

    What I'm saying is, it's not impossible to avoid it.
    I am notorious for skipping things as I read. Can you show me where it says "impossible to avoid? " - meaning their situation is impossible , not the law of the land.....




    QUESTION>
    I currently drive my Mothers car. The main insurance policy holder for the car is my Mum. My brother and I are second drivers.

    Recently my brother had an incident where he damaged another drivers car. At the time we had "fully comprehensive" insurance. The driver wanted the damages that were done to his car paid for. With "fully comprehensive" insurance our insurance company will pay all of the expenses.

    In the time between the incident and the payout, the insurance policy expired. I explained to my family that only "third party only" car insurance was permissible in Islam.

    With "third party only" insurance, we will have to pay for the damage caused with our own money. My family were very reluctant to take "third party only" insurance as we are not financially strong at the moment. This was causing a lot of Fitna in the household so I finally gave in and told them to renew the "fully comprehensive" insurance.

    In such situations is it permissible to break injunctions of Shariah - i.e. when it will cause divisions/ problems in a household?

    <ANSWER>
    In the name of Allah, Most Compassionate, Most Merciful,
    All forms of commercial insurance prevalent in modern trade are unlawful (haram) according to Shariah, for they have either an element of interest (riba) or chancing (qimar), both of which have been explicitly and sternly forbidden by Allah Most High in the Qur’an. This has been explained in detail in many earlier posts.

    However, it should be remembered that if one is obliged by law to have an insurance cover for one’s car, then it would be permissible for one to have insurance up to the minimum level required by law. Since the third party insurance is mandatory by law in many countries, it would be permissible to take up this insurance, for it is impossible for one to avoid it.

    Thus, what you explained to your family that only third party insurance is permissible according to Shariah was correct indeed. It is impermissible (in normal cases) to take up “fully comprehensive” insurance.

    It would not be permissible to violate an injunction of Shariah merely on the fact that other family members will become upset. One should offer sincere advice in a gentle and polite manner without causing any unnecessary rift between family members. Your responsibility is to advice your family that fully comprehensive insurance is not permissible. However, if they don’t adhere to your advice, you must still keep good ties with them. You yourself must come out from this insurance cover policy. If you do that, your responsibility will be fulfilled.

    If it is very difficult to come out from the insurance policy and your family are no way in a position to take heed of what you say, and that it is causing immense family disputes and problems, then it may be permissible to take up the fully comprehensive policy provided two conditions are met:

    Firstly, you must only take avail of the total premium paid to the insurance company up to the time of the accident. The rest of the compensation offered by the insurance company must be given in charity (as is the general case with unlawfully acquired wealth),

    Secondly, you must not hold both the third party cover and fully comprehensive cover simultaneously. One must suffice only on one policy, for only one is a legal requirement. It would not be permitted to have two separate policies, in that after taking the fully comprehensive cover one must not enter into a third party insurance.

    And Allah knows best

  11. #170
    061116 Rifqah's Avatar
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    I am notorious for skipping things as I read. Can you show me where it says "impossible to avoid? "
    Yes no problem... Post #164 the short paragraph you posted, last line.
    I heard Al-Buḵari say, “I have never eaten leek", So I asked, “And why is that?” He replied, “I hate to annoy anyone with its foul smell"

  12. #171
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rifqah View Post
    Yes no problem... Post #164 the short paragraph you posted, last line.
    One of us is mistaken. That quote is from this fatwa which I quoted in full in post #169 . I bolded that portion in the quote as well.

    http://www.daruliftaa.com/node/5812

    "if one is obliged by law to have an insurance cover for one’s car"

    Meaning if the government forces you to buy insurance for your car then it is permissible to purchase it as long as one goes for the minimum coverage.

    Perhaps our confusion lies in us being in different countries. In Canada they force you to buy insurance. No way around it. No insurance , no car.

    Have you misunderstood?

    Wa Allahu alaam


    Edit : The last line of that bolded part is only confirming what was said above it. If you are forced to pay the insurance , then it's fine.
    Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 17-03-17 at 01:17 PM.

  13. #172
    061116 Rifqah's Avatar
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    One of us is mistaken. That quote is from this fatwa which I quoted in full in post #169 . I bolded that portion in the quote as well.

    http://www.daruliftaa.com/node/5812

    "if one is obliged by law to have an insurance cover for one’s car"

    Meaning if the government forces you to buy insurance for your car then it is permissible to purchase it as long as one goes for the minimum coverage.

    Perhaps our confusion lies in us being in different countries. In Canada they force you to buy insurance. No way around it. No insurance , no car.

    Have you misunderstood?

    Wa Allahu alaam


    Edit : The last line of that bolded part is only confirming what was said above it. If you are forced to pay the insurance , then it's fine.
    Okay, I have conflated two issues, sorry.

    The first being, if you have a car then you are forced to have insurance - the fatwa says its fine.

    The second being, why would I put myself in that position (of owning a car when it isn't necessary for me as there are other forms of transport) knowing, that I am going to be forced to have haram insurance.

    It's like I know it's haram, so why buy a car unless I can't avoid buying/owning a car?

    This is my puzzle.

    Sorry if I confused matters. I don't know anything so I should just stop I think.
    Last edited by Rifqah; 17-03-17 at 06:54 PM.
    I heard Al-Buḵari say, “I have never eaten leek", So I asked, “And why is that?” He replied, “I hate to annoy anyone with its foul smell"

  14. #173
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rifqah View Post
    Okay, I have conflated two issues, sorry.

    The first being, if you have a car then you are forced to have insurance - the fatwa says its fine.

    The second being, why would I put myself in that position (of owning a car when it isn't necessary for me as there are other forms of transport) knowing, that I am going to be forced to have haram insurance.

    It's like I know it's haram, so why buy a car unless I can't avoid buying/owning a car?

    This is my puzzle.

    Sorry if I confused matters. I don't know anything so I should just stop I think.
    No that's fine.

    May Allah make your affair easy for you.

    Just an advice , not for you alone but any converts or muslims in need of assistance - find a source of knowledge offline if possible. If you can find a masjid which is well established and a place where questions can be asked , and you trust the source then that would be ideal. Unfortunately knowledge at times is scarce. A lot of it has to do with facilitation and time constraints. If you find someone which you can constantly ask questions and have this source be involved in your life then stick to it and don't let it go. The internet is great , but no one can help our lives directly. No one knows our personal situations.

    Allah knows best


  15. #174
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    No that's fine.

    May Allah make your affair easy for you.

    Just an advice , not for you alone but any converts or muslims in need of assistance - find a source of knowledge offline if possible. If you can find a masjid which is well established and a place where questions can be asked , and you trust the source then that would be ideal. Unfortunately knowledge at times is scarce. A lot of it has to do with facilitation and time constraints. If you find someone which you can constantly ask questions and have this source be involved in your life then stick to it and don't let it go. The internet is great , but no one can help our lives directly. No one knows our personal situations.

    Allah knows best

    I think you didn't see the question?
    I heard Al-Buḵari say, “I have never eaten leek", So I asked, “And why is that?” He replied, “I hate to annoy anyone with its foul smell"

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    Post Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rifqah View Post
    I think you didn't see the question?
    "
    It's like I know it's haram, so why buy a car unless I can't avoid buying/owning a car?"

    Was this your question ? I didn't know you were actually asking it to me specifically or just mentioning what your dilemma was.

    I was attempting to dodge it by what I said above. In any case sister ,it's not completely haram. The fatwa says its permissible if you are forced by the law of the land. It doesn't specificy that you should only get the car when it's a necessity or not.

    Look I don't know where you live but where I live , you need a car unless you are going to walk in the snow / rain to work. We live in such times where transportation is essential. We are not riding camels.

    Not that I must know everything but I have never heard a muslim say that they don't drive because car insurance is haram. Surely the imams and scholars would be the most righteous amongst the people. Never saw a single one say it is impermissible to drive due to the insurance. If this was the standard opinion then many muslims wouldn't drive. This would be well known information the masses would adhere to.

    Who knows , maybe I am just out of tune with reality. Try asking someone irl. Do you have any access to knowledge irl? Your local masjid?

    Forgive the typos

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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    @nonameakhi

    According to this , since it's obliged by law then it's fine.

    Now if you can find away around it , that would be great. If not , you have this.
    the only issue here is the need/necessity to have a car.

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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    Try asking someone irl. Do you have any access to knowledge irl? Your local masjid?
    I have asked the imam at my local masjid and a sister asked a local scholar for me who teaches at the masjid, they said it is haram unless you cannot avoid it.

    I didn't mean to be irritating, I apologise.
    Thank you for discussing it.
    Last edited by Rifqah; 17-03-17 at 11:37 PM.
    I heard Al-Buḵari say, “I have never eaten leek", So I asked, “And why is that?” He replied, “I hate to annoy anyone with its foul smell"

  19. #178
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    LAA ILAAHA ILLALLAH
    -------------------------------
    "And if you would count the graces of God, never could you be able to count them. Truly, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Qur'aan 16:18)
    NOTE: Please kindly do NOT rep my posts. (Jazaa'akumullah).

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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Rifqah View Post
    I have asked the imam at my local masjid and a sister asked a local scholar for me who teaches at the masjid, they said it is haram unless you cannot avoid it.

    I didn't mean to be irritating, I apologise.
    Thank you for discussing it.
    Alhamdulillah,

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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nonameakhi View Post
    the only issue here is the need/necessity to have a car.




    I would like the definition of need/necessity according to the scholars which hold that position.

    Or is it subjective to ones own opinion?

    Where I live for example , you can get away with not having a car. You can work at a local store and have a taxi deliver your groceries.

    Unfortunately it is highly improbable that anyone would marry someone without a car. Not saying that justifies the insurance but no one follows this position. No one is even promoting and calling the people away from driving in the west. I would expect the imams to be delivering lectures regarding this like they do 'riba'.

    I am not saying what is halal or haram , but I assume some would say - the times we live in makes owning a car a necessity.

    Every muslim I have ever met drives or are working their way to buy a car and I am sure no one will command their fathers or mothers to start taking trains instead of driving to the masjid, grocery store , malls , relatives , etc.
    Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 18-03-17 at 04:31 PM.

  22. #181
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AmantuBillahi View Post




    I would like the definition of need/necessity according to the scholars which hold that position.

    Or is it subjective to ones own opinion?

    Where I live for example , you can get away with not having a car. You can work at a local store and have a taxi deliver your groceries.

    Unfortunately it is highly improbable that anyone would marry someone without a car. Not saying that justifies the insurance but no one follows this position. No one is even promoting and calling the people away from driving in the west. I would expect the imams to be delivering lectures regarding this like they do 'riba'.

    I am not saying what is halal or haram , but I assume some would say - the times we live in makes owning a car a necessity.

    Every muslim I have ever met drives or are working their way to buy a car and I am sure no one will command their fathers or mothers to start taking trains instead of driving to the masjid, grocery store , malls , relatives , etc.
    The issue of need and necessity is taken too lightly. I have less problem with people saying they know it is haram but do it than those who try and justify it. That is the key for me.

    i think today we need a car less than previous times

    Also worth noting is that Islam is a religion of mercy. If things get hard, to use your example of going to the masjid we dont

    What i notice today is that people get mortgages as they see renting as expensive or ''dead money'' and cars for ease. But what about the here after?

  23. #182
    Odan Creamcake's Avatar
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by nonameakhi View Post
    The issue of need and necessity is taken too lightly. I have less problem with people saying they know it is haram but do it than those who try and justify it. That is the key for me.

    i think today we need a car less than previous times

    Also worth noting is that Islam is a religion of mercy. If things get hard, to use your example of going to the masjid we dont

    What i notice today is that people get mortgages as they see renting as expensive or ''dead money'' and cars for ease. But what about the here after?
    What about like female exiting the house? Does it have to be a matter of absolute necessity?
    Just wondering because I didn't really know this to be honest, I thought as long as the job is halal or as long as you're visiting somewhere that's obviously halal, and are dressed in the correct way, then it's okay?
    And with Him are the keys of the Ghayb (all that is hidden), none knows them but He. And He knows whatever there is in the land and in the sea; not a leaf falls, but He knows it. There is not a grain in the darkness of the earth nor anything fresh or dry, but is written in a Clear Record”
    [al-An’aam 6:59]

  24. #183
    abu sab'a
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Creamcake View Post
    What about like female exiting the house? Does it have to be a matter of absolute necessity?
    Just wondering because I didn't really know this to be honest, I thought as long as the job is halal or as long as you're visiting somewhere that's obviously halal, and are dressed in the correct way, then it's okay?
    This topic is slightly different and the rulings are not necessarily that different for men and women

    What I mean is that haram things become ''halal'' in times of necessity. SO eating pork to save your life. Insurance or multi arty contracts are haram and specified as such

    In general day to day life we have permissability to do things ie visit the sick, relatives, buying food and even for entertainment (within rules)

    The only time it becomes an issue, as an example, is that we know we can go shopping for food etc but we are also warned about the markets yet people (men and women) go for window shopping etc or just walking around malls as an entertainment. For me that would be what the market hadiths say dont do

  25. #184
    Please do not 'Rep'. Jzk. Fakhri's Avatar
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    ( Br @eesa the kiwi , Alhamdulillah, happy to know that. likewise, dear brother, by His great Kindness... )
    LAA ILAAHA ILLALLAH
    -------------------------------
    "And if you would count the graces of God, never could you be able to count them. Truly, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Qur'aan 16:18)
    NOTE: Please kindly do NOT rep my posts. (Jazaa'akumullah).

  26. #185
    Alhamdulilah eesa the kiwi's Avatar
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    Re: New Muslim support thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fakhri View Post
    ( Br @eesa the kiwi , Alhamdulillah, happy to know that. likewise, dear brother, by His great Kindness... )
    Alhamdulilah
    :

    Al-Fudayl ibn ‘Iyaad said:

    “Follow the path of guidance, and do not worry about how few are the people who follow it. Beware of the paths of misguidance, and do not be deceived by the large numbers of those who doomed.” [Al-I’tisaam by Imam Ash-Shaatibi]

 

 

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