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  1. #1
    Alhamdulilah eesa the kiwi's Avatar
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    The mental gymnastics of Christianity thread

    Seeing as there are so many it doesn't make sense to make a new thread each time

    To begin Matthew 5:19

    King James Bible
    Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Umm isn't that exactly what Paul did?
    It may not be easy, you may not understand it, but you need to have the Imaan to trust Allah when life doesn't make sense.

    Be with the truth even if you are alone.

  2. #41
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    Re: The mental gymnastics of Christianity thread

    Quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
    ◄ Mark 13:32 ►
    New International Version
    "But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
    What's the issue here?

  3. #42
    Alhamdulilah eesa the kiwi's Avatar
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    Re: The mental gymnastics of Christianity thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    No christian in the whole of Christendom could give you a satisfactory response. Besides being an ex Christian I'm surprised you don't know the answer yourself. Just hope you understand your new faith - Islam a bit better. In a nutshell, Melchizedek is a type and shadow of the Christ to come.
    I'm sorry that makes no sense
    This being "mechelzdik" is a type of Christ?
    Lol what? Have you started saying God is 4 in one?
    It may not be easy, you may not understand it, but you need to have the Imaan to trust Allah when life doesn't make sense.

    Be with the truth even if you are alone.

  4. #43
    Alhamdulilah eesa the kiwi's Avatar
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    Re: The mental gymnastics of Christianity thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    What's the issue here?
    If the son is the same being as the father and coequal how can the father know something the son doesn't?
    It may not be easy, you may not understand it, but you need to have the Imaan to trust Allah when life doesn't make sense.

    Be with the truth even if you are alone.

  5. #44
    Odan
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    Re: The mental gymnastics of Christianity thread

    Quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
    I'm sorry that makes no sense
    This being "mechelzdik" is a type of Christ?
    Lol what? Have you started saying God is 4 in one?
    You are nothing if not not predictable. It's known as a prophetic metaphor, commonly used by prophets throughout the Bible. I could attempt to explain this for you but your last remark (in bold) clearly shows I would be wasting my time.

    resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever. Do you understand the roles the Levite priests played?

  6. #45
    Odan
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    Re: The mental gymnastics of Christianity thread

    Quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
    If the son is the same being as the father and coequal how can the father know something the son doesn't?
    But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." As a man, Jesus cooperated with the limitations of being a man. That is why we have verses like Luke 2:52 , Matthew and Mark that says "Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." Therefore, at this point in his ministry he could say He did not know the day nor hour of His return. It is not a denial of His being God but a confirmation of His being man.

    Also, the logic that Jesus could not be God because He did not know all things works both ways. If we could find a scripture where Jesus does know all things, then that would prove that He was God, wouldn't it?

    He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus *said to him, "Tend My sheep." (John 21:17--NASB).

    Jesus did not correct Peter and say, "Hold on Peter, I do not know all things." He let Peter continue on with his statement that Jesus knew all things. Therefore, it must be true.

    But, if we have a verse that says that Jesus did not know all things and another that says he did know all things, then isn't that a contradiction? No. It is not.

    Before Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, He said the Father alone knew the day and hour of His return. It wasn't until after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection that omniscience is attributed to Jesus. Jesus was cooperating with the limitations of being a man and completed His ministry on this earth. He was then glorified in His resurrection. After Jesus' resurrection, He was able to appear and disappear at will. This is not the normal ability of a man. But, it is, apparently, the normal ability of a resurrected and glorified man. Jesus was different after the resurrection. There had been a change. He was still a man, and He knew all things.

  7. #46
    Abu-Tawheed Saif-Uddin's Avatar
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    Re: The mental gymnastics of Christianity thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Saved View Post
    Paul followed Christ's example
    Yes he followed Christ's example by doing away with the Law which his master said must be followed to the Jot and Title,

    lol,
    http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

    "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

    – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

  8. #47
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    Re: The mental gymnastics of Christianity thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    Yes he followed Christ's example by doing away with the Law which his master said must be followed to the Jot and Title,

    lol,
    Where did Jesus do away with the law?

  9. #48
    Abu-Tawheed Saif-Uddin's Avatar
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    Re: The mental gymnastics of Christianity thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Where did Jesus do away with the law?
    It was sarcasm,

    Nevermind

    The point is Paul claimed it's nailed to the cross, you don't have to follow the law,

    Jesus said every law down to the joy/title must be followed,

    Clearly your master Paul negated Jesus teachings,

    Proving once again Paul is the Real founder of Christianity
    http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

    "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

    – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

  10. #49
    Alhamdulilah eesa the kiwi's Avatar
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    Re: The mental gymnastics of Christianity thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    You are nothing if not not predictable. It's known as a prophetic metaphor, commonly used by prophets throughout the Bible. I could attempt to explain this for you but your last remark (in bold) clearly shows I would be wasting my time.

    resembling the Son of God, he remains a priest forever. Do you understand the roles the Levite priests played?
    if its only a resemblance why state he is without beginning or end of days, if this is a metaphor pip it simply means this verse is not true. metaphor is how you are trying to explain away a problematic verse added by a corrupt scribe but it simply doesnt cut it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone." As a man, Jesus cooperated with the limitations of being a man. That is why we have verses like Luke 2:52 , Matthew and Mark that says "Jesus kept increasing in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and men." Therefore, at this point in his ministry he could say He did not know the day nor hour of His return. It is not a denial of His being God but a confirmation of His being man.

    Also, the logic that Jesus could not be God because He did not know all things works both ways. If we could find a scripture where Jesus does know all things, then that would prove that He was God, wouldn't it?

    He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love Me?" Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, "Do you love Me?" And he said to Him, "Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You." Jesus *said to him, "Tend My sheep." (John 21:17--NASB).

    Jesus did not correct Peter and say, "Hold on Peter, I do not know all things." He let Peter continue on with his statement that Jesus knew all things. Therefore, it must be true.

    But, if we have a verse that says that Jesus did not know all things and another that says he did know all things, then isn't that a contradiction? No. It is not.

    Before Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection, He said the Father alone knew the day and hour of His return. It wasn't until after Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection that omniscience is attributed to Jesus. Jesus was cooperating with the limitations of being a man and completed His ministry on this earth. He was then glorified in His resurrection. After Jesus' resurrection, He was able to appear and disappear at will. This is not the normal ability of a man. But, it is, apparently, the normal ability of a resurrected and glorified man. Jesus was different after the resurrection. There had been a change. He was still a man, and He knew all things.

    whoa checkout those backflips, fine mental gymnatics in order to believe there, commonwealth games is next year i think, have you considering trialing out?

    you have a belief (trinity) and instead of reading verses and taking belief from them you are twisting the verses so they fit your conclusion (belief in trinity)
    this is back to front thinking pip. have you got a red letter bible handy? because if you read the words in red the picture painted is not christianity not even close

    , these holes in christianity's version of things are signs for you to wake up and go "hey something isnt right here" but i doubt you will,sticking heads in the sand doesnt make ostrich safe pip, it merely makes him feel better temporarily before he is eaten

    Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." (Aali Imraan: 64)
    It may not be easy, you may not understand it, but you need to have the Imaan to trust Allah when life doesn't make sense.

    Be with the truth even if you are alone.

  11. #50
    Odan
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    Re: The mental gymnastics of Christianity thread

    Quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
    if its only a resemblance why state he is without beginning or end of days, if this is a metaphor pip it simply means this verse is not true. metaphor is how you are trying to explain away a problematic verse added by a corrupt scribe but it simply doesnt cut it.




    whoa checkout those backflips, fine mental gymnatics in order to believe there, commonwealth games is next year i think, have you considering trialing out?

    you have a belief (trinity) and instead of reading verses and taking belief from them you are twisting the verses so they fit your conclusion (belief in trinity)
    this is back to front thinking pip. have you got a red letter bible handy? because if you read the words in red the picture painted is not christianity not even close

    , these holes in christianity's version of things are signs for you to wake up and go "hey something isnt right here" but i doubt you will,sticking heads in the sand doesnt make ostrich safe pip, it merely makes him feel better temporarily before he is eaten

    Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]." (Aali Imraan: 64)
    I don't know why you start threads like this, pretending it's like some kind of discussion thread. To offer explanations on bible verses that Muslims don't understand. Fair enough I thought I'll give it a go. But hey!! That's not it at all, you just want to ridicule and mock holy scriptures. Count me out. Surely Muslims are supposed to respect Gods Holy Scriptures, and the Qur'an does acknowledge the Bible.. That is Torah, Gospels and for some unknown reason the Psalms as Gods scripture. Now, since then Muslims have decided that some of these scriptures are corrupt and can't be trusted, but the Qur'an doesnt actually give you much to go on as to what bits are corrupt. So how do you decide? Or do you just take the chance and diss any bit you fancy?

    The fact you say you were once a Christian and don't actually know the answers to these "problem verses" is a cause for some concern. I can only hope you understand your present religion better. Could it be that you need to validate your decision to convert to Islam by trying to find fault with Christianity to bolster your belief that you've made the right choice? Well i don't know what to make of it, but it's a strange way to spend your time. I'm putting it out there you're not going to win many converts to Islam this way.

  12. #51
    Alhamdulilah eesa the kiwi's Avatar
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    Re: The mental gymnastics of Christianity thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    I don't know why you start threads like this, pretending it's like some kind of discussion thread. To offer explanations on bible verses that Muslims don't understand. Fair enough I thought I'll give it a go. But hey!! That's not it at all, you just want to ridicule and mock holy scriptures. Count me out. Surely Muslims are supposed to respect Gods Holy Scriptures, and the Qur'an does acknowledge the Bible.. That is Torah, Gospels and for some unknown reason the Psalms as Gods scripture. Now, since then Muslims have decided that some of these scriptures are corrupt and can't be trusted, but the Qur'an doesnt actually give you much to go on as to what bits are corrupt. So how do you decide? Or do you just take the chance and diss any bit you fancy?

    The fact you say you were once a Christian and don't actually know the answers to these "problem verses" is a cause for some concern. I can only hope you understand your present religion better. Could it be that you need to validate your decision to convert to Islam by trying to find fault with Christianity to bolster your belief that you've made the right choice? Well i don't know what to make of it, but it's a strange way to spend your time. I'm putting it out there you're not going to win many converts to Islam this way.


    There are major flaws in Christianity's version of events I'm merely pointing them out. Of course that may upset those who are like the ostrich but maybe just maybe someone will wake up and see that there is something wrong here
    It may not be easy, you may not understand it, but you need to have the Imaan to trust Allah when life doesn't make sense.

    Be with the truth even if you are alone.

  13. #52
    Alhamdulilah eesa the kiwi's Avatar
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    Re: The mental gymnastics of Christianity thread

    As for your question about a Muslims stance on the bible basically it falls under three categories

    1, that which we know to be false as it contradicts the revelation sent to us. E.g Paul claiming Jesus alayhis salam was God
    2, that which we know to be true for example Joseph and Jonah being prophets of God
    3, things our revelation neither confirms or denys e.g. those three men thrown into the fire I forget their names. Meshaq and abendigo maybe. In this case we neither confirm or deny
    It may not be easy, you may not understand it, but you need to have the Imaan to trust Allah when life doesn't make sense.

    Be with the truth even if you are alone.

  14. #53
    Abu-Tawheed Saif-Uddin's Avatar
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    Re: The mental gymnastics of Christianity thread

    Quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
    If the son is the same being as the father and coequal how can the father know something the son doesn't?
    This an absolute conundrum that can never be explained away with any degree of reason,

    There supposed to be one God in Christianity, bit the son is oblivious of what the father knows, is powerless of his own accord, and has multiple weaknesses whilst the father the same one God is supposed to be All-mighty,

    Lol

    Christianity, and it's absurd self refuting beliefs
    http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

    "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

    – Imam al-Shafi’i (Rahimahullah)

  15. #54
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    Re: The mental gymnastics of Christianity thread

    Quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
    There are major flaws in Christianity's version of events I'm merely pointing them out. Of course that may upset those who are like the ostrich but maybe just maybe someone will wake up and see that there is something wrong here
    There aren't any major flaws in the message. What "events" and whose "versions" are you comparing? You're free to point out what you like I can't imagine Christians getting upset by it. Doesn't upset me any if anything it confirms my faith. Makes me think if you guys have to spend so much of your time attacking the Bible and trying your best to bring it down then you must be scared it has something. I don't need to point out the Qur'ans "difficulties" because I'm happy what I have is superior.

  16. #55
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    Re: The mental gymnastics of Christianity thread

    Quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
    As for your question about a Muslims stance on the bible basically it falls under three categories

    1, that which we know to be false as it contradicts the revelation sent to us. E.g Paul claiming Jesus alayhis salam was God
    2, that which we know to be true for example Joseph and Jonah being prophets of God
    3, things our revelation neither confirms or denys e.g. those three men thrown into the fire I forget their names. Meshaq and abendigo maybe. In this case we neither confirm or deny
    1. Just Paul?

    2. How do you know it's true. What about the Bible prophets that you use to for example claim mention Muhammed, yet these prophets aren't mentioned as prophets in the Qur'an. Do you accept they are true prophets?

    3. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. As a matter of interest is Daniel mentioned as a prophet in the Qur'an?

  17. #56
    Alhamdulilah eesa the kiwi's Avatar
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    Re: The mental gymnastics of Christianity thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    1. Just Paul?

    2. How do you know it's true. What about the Bible prophets that you use to for example claim mention Muhammed, yet these prophets aren't mentioned as prophets in the Qur'an. Do you accept they are true prophets?

    3. Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego. As a matter of interest is Daniel mentioned as a prophet in the Qur'an?
    1, or anyone with a claim that goes against the supreme oneness of God, mechelzdik being labelled with the divine attributes of having no begginning or end etc would be an example

    2, stuff we know as true would be like Jonah alayhis salam being swallowed by the fish as it is mentioned in our texts, what you have mentioned would most likely (but not nessecarily as some biblical prophets have been mention by name in quran or sunnah) fall under the third category of being neither affirmed nor denied

    3, no afaik Daniel is not explicitly mentioned but my knowledge is weak in this regard. might have to do some reasearch and get back to you.
    That being said there is this narration

    Ibn Katihr records in his book of Al Biddyah Wan Nihya:

    It was narrated from Khaalid ibn Dinaar that Abu’l-‘Aaliyah said: When we conquered Tastar, we found in the treasury of al-Hormuzaan a bier on which was the body of a dead man, and by his head was a scripture of his. We took the scripture and took it to ‘Umar, and he summoned Ka‘b, who translated it into Arabic. I was the first man among the Arabs to read it, and I read it as I read this Qur'an.

    I said to Abu’l-‘Aaliyah: What was in it? He said: It was about you, your affairs, your religion, your talk, and what will happen after that. I said: What did you do with the man? He said: We dug thirteen different graves during the day, then at night we buried him and we levelled all the graves, so as to conceal its location from the people, so that they would not exhume him. I said: Why would people do that? He said: If rain was withheld from them, they would take his bier out and they would receive rain. I said: Who do you think the man was? He said: A man called Daniyal. I said: How long ago do you think he died? He said: Three hundred years ago. I said: Had anything of him changed? He said: No, except a few hairs at the back of his head, for the earth does not consume (the bodies of) the Prophets, and wild animals cannot devour them
    Last edited by eesa the kiwi; 26-01-17 at 07:34 AM.
    It may not be easy, you may not understand it, but you need to have the Imaan to trust Allah when life doesn't make sense.

    Be with the truth even if you are alone.

 

 

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