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  1. #1
    Senior Member karkooshy's Avatar
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    "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Just had a pretty interesting discussion with a friend, and thought some of the points discussed could benefit everyone here for Dawah purposes.

    Anyway, on topic. This is a response to a very typical atheist argument, where the atheist attempts to argue for the non-existence of God by appealing to (what they perceive to be) unfairness that either exists, or would exist if God is assumed to exist. In short; "God doesn't exist, because if He did, He would not allow X to exist." Substitute X with any of the various reasons usually given: whether it be suffering in this life, harshness of various divine laws, or even the reality of a judgment after death.

    The response from the theist side, is usually an attempt to justify the X argued for. To show that X, is not necessarily contradictory with the belief in the existence of God. The conversation then usually proceeds to a discussion about whether this justification by the theist, for X is valid or not. However, I do not feel this a very efficient way to handle the atheist's initial objection.

    Rather, the theist should demand from the atheist to substantiate his premises. The burden is not on the theist to prove that X is justifiable, but the burden is on the atheist to prove that X is impossible to justify. The atheist's argument looks something like this:

    P1. God has no reason to allow X to exist
    P2. God is able to stop X from existing
    C1. If God exists, then X would not exist (from P1 and P2)
    P3. X exists
    C2. Therefore either God is unable to stop X from occurring (impossible given P2), or God doesn't exist at all (from C1 and P3).

    While the form of the argument might be valid (a simple two step modus tollens) the conclusion will follow, only if the premises are proven to be true. The theist typically attempts to argue against C1, but the more efficient way to handle this objection, is to ask objector to substantiate P1. That is, for the objector to explain to us why he thinks it's impossible for God to have a reason to allow X to exist. And since the atheist cannot possibly do this, the argument just falls apart on its own.

    Of course this counter-argument is not limited to a defense of Islam, but works for any similar objection one could raise against any faith. It is also not limited to answering atheists, as it's not unusual for non-atheists to raise the same argument against another faith.

  2. #41
    Senior Member karkooshy's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    Is morality objective? I don't know, but we can say that there are certain rules that every society follows. For instance, all societies have prohibitions on murder and incest. But only one tells you not to play music.
    Not true on both accounts. Many communities used to perform ritualistic human sacrifices (what you would consider murder, as mentioned earlier), and many more- even amongst the very sophisticated civilizations- practiced incest. Incest was very common in ancient Persia for example. A huge clash of values occurred when the Muslims conquered the Sassanid empire because of this.

    Also the Amish people dislike music, last I read about them, so we're not alone in this lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    There is also something that looks like morality in nature. All other species also avoid incest, and most avoid murder of their own species (except those that are not social creatures in the first place). Is that genetic? Is it instinct? Is is morality? Is it different from human morality? I don't know. But what it does tell you is that creatures can organise themselves socially to at least some degree without the need for a religion.

    In that limited sense, morality does have an objective existence.
    But how can you translate those observations, into objective and binding moral duties? How are you able to conclude that seeing another animal do something, automatically means we should do the same? Social animals like lions for example, do kill the cubs of other males to take over the pride. Some dolphin and shark species are only able to reproduce by essentially raping their females. Why pick some values from the natural world, but not all?

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    The problem with saying that whatever God does is good, is that you are opening the door for God (or God's followers) to do 'bad' things (eg genocide) and justify it by a certain reading of scripture. You are removing the ability of people to recognise something is wrong, without the need of a scripture to tell me.
    Already answered this multiple times before. For the third time, I didn't say whoever claims to be doing as God commanded him, can go on to do whatever they want. And I didn't say the source of morality was necessarily limited to scripture, rather I said that the source of morality is necessarily God. God can communicate moral values without using scripture. In fact, we believe Allah ﷻ created humans with what we call a "fitra", which is a natural inclination to do good, that all humans are born with.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    If I see a glossy video of a man being tortured and burned to death, I know it's wrong. I don't need to check on a scripture to see if I'm right.
    According to your worldview, you would indeed be unjustified in condemning this man being tortured to death, because like I said before, at the end of the day that's just your opinion. And the people doing the torturing, are simply expressing a different opinion from yours that is equally as valid (given the amorality of nature). If you feel so strongly about the objectivity of morality, then the most consistent way of living your life would be to live it as a believer in the Creator. For if objective morality is being able to impose on the natural universe we're part of, how things should or should not be, or how things ought or ought not be, then it follows that morality comes from a Designer who has the authority to impose such objective values.

  3. #42

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    According to your worldview, you would indeed be unjustified in condemning this man being tortured to death, because like I said before, at the end of the day that's just your opinion. And the people doing the torturing, are simply expressing a different opinion from yours that is equally as valid (given the amorality of nature). If you feel so strongly about the objectivity of morality, then the most consistent way of living your life would be to live it as a believer in the Creator. For if objective morality is being able to impose on the natural universe we're part of, how things should or should not be, or how things ought or ought not be, then it follows that morality comes from a Designer who has the authority to impose such objective values.
    Yet in actual practice, it was someone's idea of 'doing God's will' that resulted in a Jordanian pilot, Muath al-Kaseasbeh, to suffer this exact fate last year.

    Anyone looking at that video should know instantly that a great crime has been committed. Instead of that, we get arcane debates and a resort to forgotten scriptures, in order to show that somewhere back in 1400 years of Muslim history, somebody said this was ok.

  4. #43
    Senior Member karkooshy's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    Yet in actual practice, it was someone's idea of 'doing God's will' that resulted in a Jordanian pilot, Muath al-Kaseasbeh, to suffer this exact fate last year.

    Anyone looking at that video should know instantly that a great crime has been committed. Instead of that, we get arcane debates and a resort to forgotten scriptures, in order to show that somewhere back in 1400 years of Muslim history, somebody said this was ok.
    Once again, an emotional argument that's irrelevant for the reasons mentioned in post #39. And you have yet to respond to most of the questions I've posed. I hope you're actually absorbing what I'm telling you, and not simply ignoring it.

  5. #44

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    Once again, an emotional argument that's irrelevant for the reasons mentioned in post #39. And you have yet to respond to most of the questions I've posed. I hope you're actually absorbing what I'm telling you, and not simply ignoring it.
    I'll summarise what I think. Yes, religion provides a moral framework. But it's objective only if everyone believes in it. That's not objective in the way that 2 plus 2 equals 4 is objective.

    Can you have a moral framework without religion? Yes you can. Europe is so secular in many areas that you can't say it's religion that holds society together any more. Yet society does hold together. And it does a perfectly good job of it in its own terms (ie it exercises sufficient control over the behaviours it seeks to control - which obviously does not include the consumption of pork and other specific measures).

    As far as we know from anthropology, moral structures arise in all societies. In most of them, some form of religion also arises. It takes over the moral structure and reforms it in its own image. You can argue about which came first - religion or morality - the chicken or the egg - but given the similarity with animal behaviours in other apes, it seems to me reasonably certain that the morality comes first. To put it crudely, it has an evolutionary advantage. But we're different from animals and our behaviours, our morality, has become a whole lot more complicated.

    That morality is suited to the needs of the society it evolves in. As Jared Diamond has argued in The Day Before Yesterday, the needs of very small societies (bands) are different from that of civilisations. So you get different moralities, different religions.

    So where does leave the claim that religion provides an objective morality? Looking pretty opaque, I'd say. Secular societies like the UK have built a different morality built on certain principles. Such as, equality of opportunity and respect for other people's life, property and liberty. These are general principles, not detailed law, so the resulting rules that are intended to enact those principles are in a state of constant flux. But the principles behind them are constant.

    Are the principles objective? Yes - but of course, we could choose not to follow them any more. Why don't we? Because we recognise that it's a good deal for everyone. It seems that you can arrive at morality by logic after all.

    Religion does not provide a barrier against arbitrary injustice. The moment you say that good and evil is defined simply by what God does, you are opening up the door to more Muath al-Kaseasbehs.

  6. #45
    Senior Member karkooshy's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    I'll summarise what I think. Yes, religion provides a moral framework. But it's objective only if everyone believes in it. That's not objective in the way that 2 plus 2 equals 4 is objective.

    Can you have a moral framework without religion? Yes you can. Europe is so secular in many areas that you can't say it's religion that holds society together any more. Yet society does hold together. And it does a perfectly good job of it in its own terms (ie it exercises sufficient control over the behaviours it seeks to control - which obviously does not include the consumption of pork and other specific measures).

    As far as we know from anthropology, moral structures arise in all societies. In most of them, some form of religion also arises. It takes over the moral structure and reforms it in its own image. You can argue about which came first - religion or morality - the chicken or the egg - but given the similarity with animal behaviours in other apes, it seems to me reasonably certain that the morality comes first. To put it crudely, it has an evolutionary advantage. But we're different from animals and our behaviours, our morality, has become a whole lot more complicated.

    That morality is suited to the needs of the society it evolves in. As Jared Diamond has argued in The Day Before Yesterday, the needs of very small societies (bands) are different from that of civilisations. So you get different moralities, different religions.

    So where does leave the claim that religion provides an objective morality? Looking pretty opaque, I'd say. Secular societies like the UK have built a different morality built on certain principles. Such as, equality of opportunity and respect for other people's life, property and liberty. These are general principles, not detailed law, so the resulting rules that are intended to enact those principles are in a state of constant flux. But the principles behind them are constant.

    Are the principles objective? Yes - but of course, we could choose not to follow them any more. Why don't we? Because we recognise that it's a good deal for everyone. It seems that you can arrive at morality by logic after all.

    Religion does not provide a barrier against arbitrary injustice. The moment you say that good and evil is defined simply by what God does, you are opening up the door to more Muath al-Kaseasbehs.
    I think you’ve been misunderstanding what I meant by "objective" this whole time. Objective does not mean popular. Objective means independent from anyone’s opinion, geographical location, or era. Objective means that if every single human being on earth thought rape was morally acceptable, and rape was objectively immoral, then every single human being on earth would be wrong. You do not have to have agreement concerning a particular moral proposition, for it be objective. How many people believe in it, is besides the point.

    And I didn’t say you could not have a moral framework without God. You absolutely could. But it would be a subjective one, and it would not be morally, any more or less correct than any other framework. So one who believed in this God-less moral framework, would not be justified in condemning crime X as objectively wrong. They would only be able to condemn crime X as far as their own opinion is concerned, and the opinion of those perpetrating the crime would be just as valid.

  7. #46

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    I think you’ve been misunderstanding what I meant by "objective" this whole time. Objective does not mean popular. Objective means independent from anyone’s opinion, geographical location, or era. Objective means that if every single human being on earth thought rape was morally acceptable, and rape was objectively immoral, then every single human being on earth would be wrong. You do not have to have agreement concerning a particular moral proposition, for it be objective. How many people believe in it, is besides the point.

    And I didn’t say you could not have a moral framework without God. You absolutely could. But it would be a subjective one, and it would not be morally, any more or less correct than any other framework. So one who believed in this God-less moral framework, would not be justified in condemning crime X as objectively wrong. They would only be able to condemn crime X as far as their own opinion is concerned, and the opinion of those perpetrating the crime would be just as valid.
    I'm saying that morality itself does have an objective existence outside any religion or any individual - in the sense that it is a universal feature of human society. I don't mean popular - I mean universal.

    The specifics of that morality vary, but they have significant agreement in key areas, such as homicide.

    Religion is not the origin of anti-homicide law. it's a codification of it.

  8. #47
    Senior Member karkooshy's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    I'm saying that morality itself does have an objective existence outside any religion or any individual - in the sense that it is a universal feature of human society. I don't mean popular - I mean universal.

    The specifics of that morality vary, but they have significant agreement in key areas, such as homicide.

    Religion is not the origin of anti-homicide law. it's a codification of it.
    Objective doesn’t mean universal either. The term universal is closer to “popular” than it is to “objective”. As I said above, an objective proposition is true even if nobody believed it, in the same way scientific or mathematical truths are objective. E.g. even if everyone at any given point in time, believed earth to be flat, they would all be wrong.

    Though on topic of universal moral values: in addition to being irrelevant to being with, you haven’t been able to give me an example of a universal moral value. You tried murder and incest, and were wrong about their universality in both cases.

  9. #48

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    Objective doesn’t mean universal either. The term universal is closer to “popular” than it is to “objective”. As I said above, an objective proposition is true even if nobody believed it, in the same way scientific or mathematical truths are objective. E.g. even if everyone at any given point in time, believed earth to be flat, they would all be wrong.

    Though on topic of universal moral values: in addition to being irrelevant to being with, you haven’t been able to give me an example of a universal moral value. You tried murder and incest, and were wrong about their universality in both cases.
    1. As I said, moral sense appears to be universal in humans. You can argue about whether that is a result of evolution or God - but either way, it's there. We all make moral judgements on events (even if they are are not always the same judgements).

    2. You're wrong, there are societal controls concerning murder and incest in all societies. Not always the same controls - but controls nevertheless.

    3. You are claiming that this universal moral sense does not exist. Instead, morality is a set of rules delivered by God. Without those rules there would be no morality. Those rules might fit what we expect, or they might seem completely arbitrary, or they might even seem cruel.

    You say, suppress any instinctive moral reaction you might feel, and refer only to the rules because they are 'objective'. And it's exactly on that basis that Isis burnt the Jordanian pilot to death and made a glossy video about it. I say, the reaction of instinctive horror and disgust that most people felt is actually the legitimate reaction. We should not just throw that aside and pretend it doesn't exist.

    Instead, we have seen a second and even more disgusting level to this crime. We have people making arcane arguments about obscure events from 1400 years ago contained in anecdotal hadeeth. This even fails on a test of objectivity. Death by burning has always been understood as a great crime in islam. Now suddenly it's ok, and they claim it always was ok.

    The net result is not morality - it is the suppression of morality.
    Last edited by ExNihilo; 10-03-16 at 09:17 AM.

  10. #49
    Senior Member karkooshy's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    1. As I said, moral sense appears to be universal in humans. You can argue about whether that is a result of evolution or God - but either way, it's there. We all make moral judgements on events (even if they are are not always the same judgements).
    This is like saying “subjective morality is universal amongst humans”, and is not contrary to what I’m saying. Of course virtually everyone holds an opinion about what’s right or wrong, but this is not what we’re discussing. The question is whether those opinions are anything more than just opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    2. You're wrong, there are societal controls concerning murder and incest in all societies. Not always the same controls - but controls nevertheless.
    I was able to give you counter-examples of societies that routinely practiced both murder and incest, and who did not consider either practice to be immoral (post #41 ).

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    3. You are claiming that this universal moral sense does not exist. Instead, morality is a set of rules delivered by God. Without those rules there would be no morality. Those rules might fit what we expect, or they might seem completely arbitrary, or they might even seem cruel.

    You say, suppress any instinctive moral reaction you might feel, and refer only to the rules because they are 'objective'. And it's exactly on that basis that Isis burnt the Jordanian pilot to death and made a glossy video about it. I say, the reaction of instinctive horror and disgust that most people felt is actually the legitimate reaction. We should not just throw that aside and pretend it doesn't exist.

    Instead, we have seen a second and even more disgusting level to this crime. We have people making arcane arguments about obscure events from 1400 years ago contained in anecdotal hadeeth. This even fails on a test of objectivity. Death by burning has always been understood as a great crime in islam. Now suddenly it's ok, and they claim it always was ok.

    The net result is not morality - it is the suppression of morality.
    I didn’t ask you suppress instinctive moral beliefs. As explained in post #41 , we believe everyone is born with such basic values as part of our religion. What I’m asking you to do, is justify your condemnation of such crimes in light of your own worldview. I am able to condemn the same crimes as objectively immoral, because I believe in a God. But there is no logical basis for you to do the same (at least you haven’t been able to demonstrate that such a basis exists yet).

  11. #50

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    This is like saying “subjective morality is universal amongst humans”, and is not contrary to what I’m saying.
    Not entirely, because (as I said) much of morality settles around the same issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    I was able to give you counter-examples of societies that routinely practiced both murder and incest, and who did not consider either practice to be immoral
    i said that rules governing murder and incest were universal - i didn't say they were the same. Different societies draw the line in different places. But somewhere - there is always a line.

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    I didn’t ask you suppress instinctive moral beliefs. As explained in post #41 , we believe everyone is born with such basic values as part of our religion. What I’m asking you to do, is justify your condemnation of such crimes in light of your own worldview. I am able to condemn the same crimes as objectively immoral, because I believe in a God. But there is no logical basis for you to do the same (at least you haven’t been able to demonstrate that such a basis exists yet).
    Yet the example I gave of the burning of the Jordanian pilot shows the exact opposite. The instinctive human reaction to that video is revulsion. But Isis supporters suppress their natural moral revulsion. Like you, they say this is subjective emotion. The only thing that matters is what it says in the scriptures. And here they dig up a handful of obscure cases where some respected historical figure appeared to burn someone to death.

    i imagine you don't agree with them, but their methodology is exactly what you recommend, and they are using the same texts.

  12. #51
    Senior Member karkooshy's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    Not entirely, because (as I said) much of morality settles around the same issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    i said that rules governing murder and incest were universal - i didn't say they were the same. Different societies draw the line in different places. But somewhere - there is always a line.
    You're fallaciously equivocating terms to mean different things. If society A believes "murder is wrong" and society B believes "murder is wrong", but both societies A and B have completely different definitions for "murder", that means each society doesn't agree that murder, from the perspective of the other, is immoral.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    Yet the example I gave of the burning of the Jordanian pilot shows the exact opposite. The instinctive human reaction to that video is revulsion. But Isis supporters suppress their natural moral revulsion. Like you, they say this is subjective emotion. The only thing that matters is what it says in the scriptures. And here they dig up a handful of obscure cases where some respected historical figure appeared to burn someone to death.

    i imagine you don't agree with them, but their methodology is exactly what you recommend, and they are using the same texts.
    I recognize the terrible contradiction the atheist has to live with. The good atheist has deep convictions that certain crimes are wrong, and that things ought to be different from what they are. But at the same time, the consistent atheist is forced to believe that such convictions are nothing but a product of their own delusions. That all their thoughts and opinions, are reducible to electrical signals and chemical reactions going on in their brains. And that at the fundamental level, all those moral opinions are just as valid, as the moral opinions of the one who diametrically contradicts them.

    As for your repeated example (that I've already answered multiple times), I tell you once more that this is an internal discussion for Muslims to have amongst themselves. You don't have to worry about poor old me. I know how to respond to the one who believes that such a crime is justifiable. I want to know what objective standard you use, in condemning such crimes. "I don't like what they did because I feel it to be wrong" is a non-argument. The fact ISIS supporters, at the very least utilize some standard, makes their position more rational than yours; assuming you don't have an objective standard, and are just going about what you feel to be moral or immoral.

  13. #52

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    You're fallaciously equivocating terms to mean different things. If society A believes "murder is wrong" and society B believes "murder is wrong", but both societies A and B have completely different definitions for "murder", that means each society doesn't agree that murder, from the perspective of the other, is immoral.
    No. The point of morality is to enable societies to live together. It turns out they all have some definition of murder, but it doesn't have to be exactly the same. They are still 'moral' societies. They are consistent within themselves, if not with each other.

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    I recognize the terrible contradiction the atheist has to live with. The good atheist has deep convictions that certain crimes are wrong, and that things ought to be different from what they are. But at the same time, the consistent atheist is forced to believe that such convictions are nothing but a product of their own delusions. That all their thoughts and opinions, are reducible to electrical signals and chemical reactions going on in their brains. And that at the fundamental level, all those moral opinions are just as valid, as the moral opinions of the one who diametrically contradicts them.
    It's a delusion that if you take away religion, morality goes too. It just doesn't work like that. You can construct moral rules entirely from the logical needs of a society. And actually, that's exactly what has happened in the past, and is happening today in secular states.

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    As for your repeated example (that I've already answered multiple times), I tell you once more that this is an internal discussion for Muslims to have amongst themselves. You don't have to worry about poor old me. I know how to respond to the one who believes that such a crime is justifiable. I want to know what objective standard you use, in condemning such crimes. "I don't like what they did because I feel it to be wrong" is a non-argument. The fact ISIS supporters, at the very least utilize some standard, makes their position more rational than yours; assuming you don't have an objective standard, and are just going about what you feel to be moral or immoral.
    No, it is not an internal issue. It's a problem with the theory itself. Your claim is that a religious code such as Islam provides an objective, unchanging, indisputable moral framework. But it doesn't.

    You don't have a monopoly on morality. Other societies have other moralities and they get along just fine.

  14. #53
    Senior Member karkooshy's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    They are still 'moral' societies. They are consistent within themselves, if not with each other.
    Which is a textbook example of what subjective is. aka the antonym of objective. I don’t understand how you cannot grasp such a simple point. This conversation has been revolving around a very repetitive and predictable pattern, and it had cycled around this same pattern, at least three times now:

    1. You start by conflating “objective” with "popular" (posts #36, #38, #44, #48)
    2. I answer by explaining that objective does not depend on people agreeing with each other, and that disagreements can be resolved internally (posts #37, #39, #45)
    3. You move on to give me examples of what I answered, without responding to the refutation I've given, or justifying your own position (posts #40, #42, #46, #50)
    4. I demonstrate that your examples are not of objective values, but rather that you’re confusing this with subjective or popular values (posts #41, #43, #47, #49)
    5. Go back to Step 1 and repeat.

    This post will mark the third or fourth time we've reached step 4. I hope that we don’t have to cycle through this sequence yet another time.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    It's a delusion that if you take away religion, morality goes too. It just doesn't work like that. You can construct moral rules entirely from the logical needs of a society. And actually, that's exactly what has happened in the past, and is happening today in secular states.
    I already affirmed that individual societies can have secular, ethical frameworks that are internally consistent, and that work to a great extent for that society. However, the mere existence of such a framework does not make it objective. In other words, it does not make this framework superior in the moral sense, to any other possible framework.

    You cannot have objective moral values if the universe is fundamentally amoral. And in order to believe that the universe is not amoral, you are required to either demonstrate a consistent, secular, method we can use to extract ethics from the universe, or to believe in the existence of God.

    To make it simpler for you with an example: we both agree that something like theft is wrong. However, my claim is that you believe this for the wrong reasons (in fact, it is my opinion that you believe this for no real reason at all). While I have 1. My internal conscious guiding me against such a practice; a conscious I believe to be a gift from the Divine. 2. Explicit Revelation to support this inner conviction. Hence, if we can imagine an individual who believed theft was a good thing: I can actually argue for my case (since I claim that morality is objective), while you would not be able to convincingly demonstrate to this person the immorality of theft, if you maintained your atheism (because atheism entails the belief that your moral opinion about theft, is just as good as his). No other non-atheistic ideology suffers from this problem, it is a problem that is unique to atheism. A Christian, or a Jew... or even a Satanist, would have an objective basis for their morality, but you don't.

    I hope things have been made a little clearer now.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    No, it is not an internal issue. It's a problem with the theory itself. Your claim is that a religious code such as Islam provides an objective, unchanging, indisputable moral framework. But it doesn't.

    You don't have a monopoly on morality. Other societies have other moralities and they get along just fine.
    Once again, this “theory” does not depend on individuals agreeing with each other.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    Which is a textbook example of what subjective is. aka the antonym of objective.
    I'm sorry but this is not the definition of subjective.You seem to be confusing 'objectivity' with 'fact'. Internal consistency within a group can be objectively tested. But that doesn't mean it's factually correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    However, the mere existence of such a framework does not make it objective.
    It doesn't make it factual but it does make it objective.

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    You cannot have objective moral values if the universe is fundamentally amoral.
    Yes you can.Objectivity is not the same as fact. And for that matter even the universe follows rules - although not moral ones.

    The other problem we're not discussing here is of course the factual basis of the religion itself. You can be as morally consistent as you like through a religion - but that doesn't make it right. Religious morality is objective to the same extent that secular morality is objective - it's just a system that everyone agrees to follow because they agree on its principles (whether they are alleged to be divine origin from a divine book, or whether they are principles of equality etc)..

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    I'm sorry but this is not the definition of subjective.You seem to be confusing 'objectivity' with 'fact'. Internal consistency within a group can be objectively tested. But that doesn't mean it's factually correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    It doesn't make it factual but it does make it objective.
    You’re attempting to repeat the same sequence I’ve described earlier. So unless you present a new objection, this will be the last time I will be answering the same questions yet again.

    #1. Objective moral framework: “I believe X is immoral. Even if you conisder it to be moral, it is my belief that you would be wrong”.
    #2. Subjective moral framework: “I believe X is immoral. But if you consider it to be moral, that’s fine with me… because this is just my opinion, and that is yours”

    The argument is that if you’re an atheist, you’re unjustified in ever making a claim to the effect of #1. You can have an internally consistent moral framework without God, but it would be a subjective one. Internal consistency does not mean objective. And all ‘facts’ are objective, because facts are naturally independent from opinions.

    I cannot make it any clearer than this.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    Yes you can.Objectivity is not the same as fact. And for that matter even the universe follows rules - although not moral ones.
    Okay, that’s the point. The universe doesn’t follow moral rules, which is what amoral means. The universe doesn’t care about your right to life, your right to freely express your opinions, or your right to happiness. In fact, the universe doesn’t care about anything at all. If the universe is all that exists, those values are only real in the minds of those who hold them, and there is no objective basis to argue that those values are morally, any better than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    The other problem we're not discussing here is of course the factual basis of the religion itself. You can be as morally consistent as you like through a religion - but that doesn't make it right. Religious morality is objective to the same extent that secular morality is objective - it's just a system that everyone agrees to follow because they agree on its principles (whether they are alleged to be divine origin from a divine book, or whether they are principles of equality etc)..
    Yes, but that’s secondary discussion. If objective moral values exist, then atheism cannot be true, which is the crux of the matter. After accepting that the Divine exists, we can then discuss which of the specific religions is true (or if perhaps, a more deistic worldview is more reasonable).

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Bump
    “Have you seen he who has taken as his god his [own] desire, and Allah has sent him astray due to knowledge and has set a seal upon his hearing and his heart and put over his vision a veil? So who will guide him after Allah ? Then will you not be reminded? And they say, “There is not but our worldly life; we die and live, and nothing destroys us except time.” And they have of that no knowledge; they are only assuming.” Quran 45:23-24

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by obaid_m View Post
    Bump
    Akhi this thread should have ended with one post.

    The whole argument of the Atheist is illogical.

    The existence of X, whatever that maybe from the Kuffar, doesn't disprove the existence of Allah عز و جل

    Atheists reek of desperation
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    i know christians and muslims post here so speaking about why does god allow X to exist do any of your holy books explain why he does allow evil to exist? does it it give a reason why a supposed all powerful deity allows for example a hitler or a stalin to exist and commit atrocities against people and even some of gods own believers?

    every time ive asked this question im told "its all part of the test........" but does any of your books actually say that or explain how it works or is this just how religious people justify bad things happening?

    There are two kinds of pride, both good and bad. 'Good pride' represents our dignity and self-respect. 'Bad pride' is the deadly sin of superiority that reeks of conceit and arrogance.



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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    i know christians and muslims post here so speaking about why does god allow X to exist do any of your holy books explain why he does allow evil to exist? does it it give a reason why a supposed all powerful deity allows for example a hitler or a stalin to exist and commit atrocities against people and even some of gods own believers?

    every time ive asked this question im told "its all part of the test........" but does any of your books actually say that or explain how it works or is this just how religious people justify bad things happening?
    Hi silures

    Evil is allowed to happen because there is a greater good behind it.

    To put things in perspective being pierced with a needle is evil right? If a junkie came at you with a needle youd be running

    But at the dentist you calmly allow the dentist to inject you with painkillers. Why? There is a greater good behind the evil of being pierced with a needle

    We may not always understand but there is a wisdom behind the evil of this world a greater good that comes from it
    It may not be easy, you may not understand it, but you need to have the Imaan to trust Allah when life doesn't make sense.
    "Whoever intends eternal happiness, then let him hold tight to the threshold of servitude.” ibn Taymiyyah.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
    Hi silures

    Evil is allowed to happen because there is a greater good behind it.

    To put things in perspective being pierced with a needle is evil right? If a junkie came at you with a needle youd be running

    But at the dentist you calmly allow the dentist to inject you with painkillers. Why? There is a greater good behind the evil of being pierced with a needle

    We may not always understand but there is a wisdom behind the evil of this world a greater good that comes from it
    hello...

    tbh i dont see it that way. a junkie trying to stab you with a needle is an evil act but a dentist, even though hes still using a needle has no evil intent and is doing you good.

    take hitler for example. what greater good came from him coming to power and leading to millions of people being killed or murdered due mostly to his actions?

    There are two kinds of pride, both good and bad. 'Good pride' represents our dignity and self-respect. 'Bad pride' is the deadly sin of superiority that reeks of conceit and arrogance.



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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    hello...

    tbh i dont see it that way. a junkie trying to stab you with a needle is an evil act but a dentist, even though hes still using a needle has no evil intent and is doing you good.

    take hitler for example. what greater good came from him coming to power and leading to millions of people being killed or murdered due mostly to his actions?
    Like I said we can't always understand the wisdom behind certain things but that doesn't mean it isn't there

    Look at the heavens and the earth do you honestly think the Creator of such marvels would let things happen without a wisdom behind it?
    It may not be easy, you may not understand it, but you need to have the Imaan to trust Allah when life doesn't make sense.
    "Whoever intends eternal happiness, then let him hold tight to the threshold of servitude.” ibn Taymiyyah.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
    Like I said we can't always understand the wisdom behind certain things but that doesn't mean it isn't there

    Look at the heavens and the earth do you honestly think the Creator of such marvels would let things happen without a wisdom behind it?
    sorry but even though i get what you saying from your own religious pov (even if i dont agree or think the same) my question was does it actually say in any of your holy books basically why evil things happen? is there a verse in the bible or quran or even hadith that says why he lets it happen? other than the usual generic answer of its a test which seems to be what believers say to anything they cant explain especially something bad?

    There are two kinds of pride, both good and bad. 'Good pride' represents our dignity and self-respect. 'Bad pride' is the deadly sin of superiority that reeks of conceit and arrogance.



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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    sorry but even though i get what you saying from your own religious pov (even if i dont agree or think the same) my question was does it actually say in any of your holy books basically why evil things happen? is there a verse in the bible or quran or even hadith that says why he lets it happen? other than the usual generic answer of its a test which seems to be what believers say to anything they cant explain especially something bad?
    I dont know the answer to that sorry. Im reluctant to bust out a do it yourself tafsir when I don't really know much about this

    Maybe one of the other users can help
    It may not be easy, you may not understand it, but you need to have the Imaan to trust Allah when life doesn't make sense.
    "Whoever intends eternal happiness, then let him hold tight to the threshold of servitude.” ibn Taymiyyah.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    i know christians and muslims post here so speaking about why does god allow X to exist do any of your holy books explain why he does allow evil to exist? does it it give a reason why a supposed all powerful deity allows for example a hitler or a stalin to exist and commit atrocities against people and even some of gods own believers?

    every time ive asked this question im told "its all part of the test........" but does any of your books actually say that or explain how it works or is this just how religious people justify bad things happening?
    You've been here long enough and you still don't know why Good and Evil exist?

    Or are you just playing dumb?

    Have you bothered reading the Qur'an?

    Ibis stated explicitly by Allah عز و جل himself that he will surely test in various ways, including the loss of life of wealth etc.

    And based on our actions and intentions we will be punished or rewarded accordingly in the Akhira.

    I can't believe you don't know this, after all these years.

    according to Atheists, the here is no accountability, no judgement day, no heaven or hell,

    If you committed attrocities and were never caught and punished in Dunya, you got away with it, according to the Atheist mentality.
    Last edited by Saif-Uddin; 28-10-17 at 02:32 AM.
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    "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    @SILURES “test” is a valid answer for this. nevertheless, you still would complain for any other alternative answers. To close it down, what God does and allow is always Just, wether we like it or not, because he owns everything and we don’t own anything, therefore, any objection or opinion about this is invalid.
    “Have you seen he who has taken as his god his [own] desire, and Allah has sent him astray due to knowledge and has set a seal upon his hearing and his heart and put over his vision a veil? So who will guide him after Allah ? Then will you not be reminded? And they say, “There is not but our worldly life; we die and live, and nothing destroys us except time.” And they have of that no knowledge; they are only assuming.” Quran 45:23-24

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    You've been here long enough and you still don't know why Good and Evil exist?

    Or are you just playing dumb?

    Have you bothered reading the Qur'an?

    Ibis stated explicitly by Allah عز و جل himself that he will surely test in various ways, including the loss of life of wealth etc.

    And based on our actions and intentions we will be punished or rewarded accordingly in the Akhira.

    I can't believe you don't know this, after all these years.

    according to Atheists, the here is no accountability, no judgement day, no heaven or hell,

    If you committed attrocities and were never caught and punished in Dunya, you got away with it, according to the Atheist mentality.
    It is, not ibis,

    Typo error
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    Kaffir SILURES's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
    I dont know the answer to that sorry. Im reluctant to bust out a do it yourself tafsir when I don't really know much about this

    Maybe one of the other users can help
    no problem and thanks for the honest reply.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    You've been here long enough and you still don't know why Good and Evil exist?

    Or are you just playing dumb?

    Have you bothered reading the Qur'an?

    Ibis stated explicitly by Allah عز و جل himself that he will surely test in various ways, including the loss of life of wealth etc.

    And based on our actions and intentions we will be punished or rewarded accordingly in the Akhira.

    I can't believe you don't know this, after all these years.

    according to Atheists, the here is no accountability, no judgement day, no heaven or hell,

    If you committed attrocities and were never caught and punished in Dunya, you got away with it, according to the Atheist mentality.
    another post where you jumed in without reading first.

    anyway not interested in any reply youll give

    Quote Originally Posted by obaid_m View Post
    @SILURES “test” is a valid answer for this. nevertheless, you still would complain for any other alternative answers. To close it down, what God does and allow is always Just, wether we like it or not, because he owns everything and we don’t own anything, therefore, any objection or opinion about this is invalid.
    ok if test is correct term can you post the passages that say thats whats happening.

    and why would i complain? you forget i dont believe what you believe so all im doing is asking out of curiosity.

    ive no dog in this fight mate.

    There are two kinds of pride, both good and bad. 'Good pride' represents our dignity and self-respect. 'Bad pride' is the deadly sin of superiority that reeks of conceit and arrogance.



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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    i know christians and muslims post here so speaking about why does god allow X to exist do any of your holy books explain why he does allow evil to exist? does it it give a reason why a supposed all powerful deity allows for example a hitler or a stalin to exist and commit atrocities against people and even some of gods own believers?

    every time ive asked this question im told "its all part of the test........" but does any of your books actually say that or explain how it works or is this just how religious people justify bad things happening?
    There are many verses in the Quran that said life on this earth is a test. Here’s 3 of them :

    “Do the people think that they would be left (alone) to say, ‘We believe’, without them being tested?” = Quran 29:2

    We will surely test you through some fear, hunger and loss of wealth, lives and crops, so give the (good) news to the patient ones.” - Quran 2:155

    “If the human is touched by any harm he calls on Us, then if We bestow a blessing upon him, he says, "I have been given this because of my knowledge!" Rather, this is a test, but most of them do not know.” - Quran 39:49.

    So, it’s not about “how religious people justify bad things happening” but rather it’s about understanding that our temporary life on this earth is anything BUT a test of our faith in the One and Only God.

    Now, you may not believe there’s such thing as a Supreme Creator or a God - that’s your choice, but do you really believe that if there’s no God, people like Hitler or Stalin would NOT have committed atrocities against other people ?

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    There are many verses in the Quran that said life on this earth is a test. Here’s 3 of them :

    “Do the people think that they would be left (alone) to say, ‘We believe’, without them being tested?” = Quran 29:2

    We will surely test you through some fear, hunger and loss of wealth, lives and crops, so give the (good) news to the patient ones.” - Quran 2:155

    “If the human is touched by any harm he calls on Us, then if We bestow a blessing upon him, he says, "I have been given this because of my knowledge!" Rather, this is a test, but most of them do not know.” - Quran 39:49.

    So, it’s not about “how religious people justify bad things happening” but rather it’s about understanding that our temporary life on this earth is anything BUT a test of our faith in the One and Only God.

    Now, you may not believe there’s such thing as a Supreme Creator or a God - that’s your choice, but do you really believe that if there’s no God, people like Hitler or Stalin would NOT have committed atrocities against other people ?
    thanks jerry thats what i was after. ive heard many people say about a test but couldnt recall if it was actually part of the religion or a scholar trying to explain basically why bad things happen. the verses you posted clear that up for me now.

    i never made ony kind of comment though saying stalin or hitler wouldnt have happened though.

    ive been thinking about this side of religion quite a bit latley due to a loss in our community and things people were saying to console the familiy.

    There are two kinds of pride, both good and bad. 'Good pride' represents our dignity and self-respect. 'Bad pride' is the deadly sin of superiority that reeks of conceit and arrogance.



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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    There are many verses in the Quran that said life on this earth is a test. Here’s 3 of them :

    “Do the people think that they would be left (alone) to say, ‘We believe’, without them being tested?” = Quran 29:2

    We will surely test you through some fear, hunger and loss of wealth, lives and crops, so give the (good) news to the patient ones.” - Quran 2:155

    “If the human is touched by any harm he calls on Us, then if We bestow a blessing upon him, he says, "I have been given this because of my knowledge!" Rather, this is a test, but most of them do not know.” - Quran 39:49.

    So, it’s not about “how religious people justify bad things happening” but rather it’s about understanding that our temporary life on this earth is anything BUT a test of our faith in the One and Only God.

    Now, you may not believe there’s such thing as a Supreme Creator or a God - that’s your choice, but do you really believe that if there’s no God, people like Hitler or Stalin would NOT have committed atrocities against other people ?
    As god, being all-knowing, knows what the results of the tests will be, isn't it a waste of time giving them?
    How is making "bad things happen" a fair test anyway? On the face of things, God looks like - well, not a very nice supreme being - because he gives children horrible and painful diseases which kill them in agony and the test is that we're going to disregard the evidence and believe in his goodness? or am I missing something out here?

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    As god, being all-knowing, knows what the results of the tests will be, isn't it a waste of time giving them?
    How is making "bad things happen" a fair test anyway? On the face of things, God looks like - well, not a very nice supreme being - because he gives children horrible and painful diseases which kill them in agony and the test is that we're going to disregard the evidence and believe in his goodness? or am I missing something out here?
    you're missing everything , the whole issue is that theres a life after , hence this is just a simulation for us.




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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by noobz View Post
    you're missing everything , the whole issue is that theres a life after , hence this is just a simulation for us.
    By a simulation, do you mean it isn't really happening?
    How does that justify it morally?

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    By a simulation, do you mean it isn't really happening?
    How does that justify it morally?
    morally?




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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    As god, being all-knowing, knows what the results of the tests will be, isn't it a waste of time giving them?
    How is making "bad things happen" a fair test anyway? On the face of things, God looks like - well, not a very nice supreme being - because he gives children horrible and painful diseases which kill them in agony and the test is that we're going to disregard the evidence and believe in his goodness? or am I missing something out here?
    Man is created with the faculty of intelligence to think and rationalize and the ability to make a choice and thus, we are being tested as to how we react to them. It’s not just “bad things happen” that are tests, but “good things happen” are also tests of our faith in God. Does our faith in God remain unshaken and have we shown fortitude and patience in face of disasters and hardships? Or have we become arrogant, aloof and ungrateful when we are blessed with wealth, good looks, good health and all the fine things that this life can offer ??

    If God were to send all persons to Heaven or Hell according to His All-Knowing Knowledge without putting them to test for their beliefs and deeds, then those sent to Hell could rightly question as to why were they being punished without any sin on their part while others enjoyed bliss of life in Heaven without any good deed in their credit? So in order to uphold the principle of justice and fairness, God test every one of his/her faith in Him. In other words, your fate in the afterlife is really in your own hands.

    Question is - do you really believe that if God does not exist, there will be NO painful diseases that kill children, hardships, disasters and tyranny in this world ?
    Last edited by JerryMyers; 29-10-17 at 02:41 PM.

  36. #75
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by noobz View Post
    morally?
    OK, how does that justify it immorally?

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Man is created with the faculty of intelligence to think and rationalize and the ability to make a choice and thus, we are being tested as to how we react to them. It’s not just “bad things happen” that are tests, but “good things happen” are also tests of our faith in God. Does our faith in God remain unshaken and have we shown fortitude and patience in face of disasters and hardships? Or have we become arrogant, aloof and ungrateful when we are blessed with wealth, good looks, good health and all the fine things that this life can offer ??
    ...except that the "bad" things in life far outweigh the "good" things.
    Furthermore, given that god knows the results of the "test", before they begin, is it worth bothering with them? As man "is created with the faculty of intelligence to think and rationalize and the ability to make a choice", but god knows how we will think and rationalise and what our choices will be, are our choices our own?
    If God were to send all persons to Heaven or Hell according to His All-Knowing Knowledge without putting them to test for their beliefs and deeds, then those sent to Hell could rightly question as to why were they being punished without any sin on their part while others enjoyed bliss of life in Heaven without any good deed in their credit? So in order to uphold the principle of justice and fairness, God test every one of his/her faith in Him. In other words, your fate in the afterlife is really in your own hands.
    ...except that god's already decided what it is.
    Also, in the very unlikely event of god sending me to hell or heaven I'll still question the justice of his actions, so it was rather a waste of time creating me to begin with.

    Question is - do you really believe that if God does not exist, there will be NO painful diseases that kill children, hardships, disasters and tyranny in this world ?
    Of course not. No-one does.
    The assumption behind this claim is that god is somehow "good". Leaving aside the question of what "good" is, the more accurate assertion is "God isn't good." or - at least - "If god is 'good', it is in ways that are incomprehensible to humans."
    The argument was put forward by Charles Darwin:
    I own that I cannot see as plainly as others do, and as I should wish to do, evidence of design and beneficence on all sides of us. There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    no problem and thanks for the honest reply.



    another post where you jumed in without reading first.

    anyway not interested in any reply youll give



    ok if test is correct term can you post the passages that say thats whats happening.

    and why would i complain? you forget i dont believe what you believe so all im doing is asking out of curiosity.

    ive no dog in this fight mate.
    If your not interested in the Islamic reply z then your just Trolling

    You need to find another hobby, get a life.
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    ...except that the "bad" things in life far outweigh the "good" things.
    “Bad” things in life happened, NOT by design (of God) but by man’s own design and doing. To put that into perspective, God created light, NOT darkness, BUT with the absence of light came darkness.

    Similarly, with the absence of “good” in man, came “bad” things in man and in life. Thus, with the continuous ‘growth’ of absence of “good” in man, perhaps, you are right, we have reached the stage where ‘the "bad" things in life far outweigh the "good" things’. Question is - should man blame God or take the responsibility and do something about it ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Furthermore, given that god knows the results of the "test", before they begin, is it worth bothering with them? As man "is created with the faculty of intelligence to think and rationalize and the ability to make a choice", but god knows how we will think and rationalise and what our choices will be, are our choices our own?
    Of course, the choices are your own as you are given the faculty of intelligence to think and rationalize to make the choice. God’s All-Knowing Knowledge does not affect your choice. God knew what choice you will make because He knew you better than you knew yourself. You may believe, or not believe, in Him today, BUT do you know what your belief will be in the future ? You may think you know BUT you don’t, God does.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    ...except that god's already decided what it is.
    Also, in the very unlikely event of god sending me to hell or heaven I'll still question the justice of his actions, so it was rather a waste of time creating me to begin with.
    Well, that seem so to you because you see God’s All-Knowing Knowledge of the future as an over-powering factor to man’s capability to make a choice – that’s not the objective. Yes, God knows every decision of your actions even before you make them. God also knows who will end up in Heaven and who will end up in Hell. God know all these because He knew the choices you will make in this life that will ultimately seal your fate in the afterlife. However, knowing the choices you will make DOES NOT mean God made the choices FOR YOU – no, the choices you make are strictly yours.

    Imagine an exam invigilator walking pass students taking their final exam papers in a hall. He passed 2 students and had a quick glance at their answers to one of the objective question - the invigilator knew the answer to the objective question because he had a hand in the preparation of the exam paper and thus he knew one student selected the right answer while the other selected the wrong answer. Now, just because he knew the answer and had known which student had chosen the right and wrong answer, does that mean the invigilator had made the choice for the 2 students because he had allowed the students to select the answer, irrespective whether its right or wrong ? Of course not as the choice to select the right answer is still the choice of the students. Moreover, if he had intervened and help the student to select the right answer, he would not have been a fair and just invigilator, now, would he ?

    Similarly, God does not make the choice for you, God, however, knew the choices you will eventually make. Do you get what I am trying to tell you ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Of course not. No-one does.
    Then why put all the blames of “bad things” that happened in life to God if you believe even if there’s no God, these “bad things” will still occur?? Why do you think these “bad things” would still be happening even if there’s no God ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    The assumption behind this claim is that god is somehow "good". Leaving aside the question of what "good" is, the more accurate assertion is "God isn't good." or - at least - "If god is 'good', it is in ways that are incomprehensible to humans."
    The argument was put forward by Charles Darwin:
    I own that I cannot see as plainly as others do, and as I should wish to do, evidence of design and beneficence on all sides of us. There seems to me too much misery in the world. I cannot persuade myself that a beneficent and omnipotent God would have designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice.
    Well then, someone should have also asked Mr. Darwin whether he believe if there’s no God, all the misery in the world would NOT have happened ??

  39. #78
    Kaffir SILURES's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    If your not interested in the Islamic reply z then your just Trolling

    You need to find another hobby, get a life.
    i got an islamic reply and was happy with it.

    just not interested in any thing a troll like you has to say.

    There are two kinds of pride, both good and bad. 'Good pride' represents our dignity and self-respect. 'Bad pride' is the deadly sin of superiority that reeks of conceit and arrogance.



  40. #79
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Man is created with the faculty of intelligence to think and rationalize and the ability to make a choice and thus, we are being tested as to how we react to them. It’s not just “bad things happen” that are tests, but “good things happen” are also tests of our faith in God. Does our faith in God remain unshaken and have we shown fortitude and patience in face of disasters and hardships? Or have we become arrogant, aloof and ungrateful when we are blessed with wealth, good looks, good health and all the fine things that this life can offer ??

    If God were to send all persons to Heaven or Hell according to His All-Knowing Knowledge without putting them to test for their beliefs and deeds, then those sent to Hell could rightly question as to why were they being punished without any sin on their part while others enjoyed bliss of life in Heaven without any good deed in their credit? So in order to uphold the principle of justice and fairness, God test every one of his/her faith in Him. In other words, your fate in the afterlife is really in your own hands.

    Question is - do you really believe that if God does not exist, there will be NO painful diseases that kill children, hardships, disasters and tyranny in this world ?
    i cant answer for sceptic but i dont think anybody has said that tbh.

    what people do ask is if god is an all powerfull, all knowing god why does he allow, for instance, bone cancer in new born babies? or multiple miscarriages? or any number of ills that befalls good people (or even bad ones)?

    but then it comes back to the test again i guess.

    There are two kinds of pride, both good and bad. 'Good pride' represents our dignity and self-respect. 'Bad pride' is the deadly sin of superiority that reeks of conceit and arrogance.



  41. #80
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    i got an islamic reply and was happy with it.

    just not interested in any thing a troll like you has to say.
    Then your post where you pretended you didn't know the Islamic reply was a case of clear Trolling.

    Don't reflect your antics on me.
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