Hello & Welcome to our community. Is this your first visit? Register
Ads by Muslim Ad Network


Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 81 to 108 of 108
  1. #1
    Senior Member karkooshy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    281
    Mentioned
    14 Post(s)
    Quoted
    184 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    16

    "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Just had a pretty interesting discussion with a friend, and thought some of the points discussed could benefit everyone here for Dawah purposes.

    Anyway, on topic. This is a response to a very typical atheist argument, where the atheist attempts to argue for the non-existence of God by appealing to (what they perceive to be) unfairness that either exists, or would exist if God is assumed to exist. In short; "God doesn't exist, because if He did, He would not allow X to exist." Substitute X with any of the various reasons usually given: whether it be suffering in this life, harshness of various divine laws, or even the reality of a judgment after death.

    The response from the theist side, is usually an attempt to justify the X argued for. To show that X, is not necessarily contradictory with the belief in the existence of God. The conversation then usually proceeds to a discussion about whether this justification by the theist, for X is valid or not. However, I do not feel this a very efficient way to handle the atheist's initial objection.

    Rather, the theist should demand from the atheist to substantiate his premises. The burden is not on the theist to prove that X is justifiable, but the burden is on the atheist to prove that X is impossible to justify. The atheist's argument looks something like this:

    P1. God has no reason to allow X to exist
    P2. God is able to stop X from existing
    C1. If God exists, then X would not exist (from P1 and P2)
    P3. X exists
    C2. Therefore either God is unable to stop X from occurring (impossible given P2), or God doesn't exist at all (from C1 and P3).

    While the form of the argument might be valid (a simple two step modus tollens) the conclusion will follow, only if the premises are proven to be true. The theist typically attempts to argue against C1, but the more efficient way to handle this objection, is to ask objector to substantiate P1. That is, for the objector to explain to us why he thinks it's impossible for God to have a reason to allow X to exist. And since the atheist cannot possibly do this, the argument just falls apart on its own.

    Of course this counter-argument is not limited to a defense of Islam, but works for any similar objection one could raise against any faith. It is also not limited to answering atheists, as it's not unusual for non-atheists to raise the same argument against another faith.

  2. #81
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    438
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Quoted
    323 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    i cant answer for sceptic but i dont think anybody has said that tbh.
    Hi SIRULES,

    Actually, Sceptic did answer that, which more or less, the same answer as you gave, and that is, no one can be sure that if God does not exist, all the hardships, miseries and “bad” things in the world would not have happened. If that’s the case, then the logical conclusion is that if, with God or without God, miseries and hardships will still happen, then, God is not the cause of all the miseries and hardships in this world. It’s like if, with gas or without gas, the stalled car would not fire up, then, gas is not the cause of the car breaking down – in both cases, it’s something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    what people do ask is if god is an all powerfull, all knowing god why does he allow, for instance, bone cancer in new born babies? or multiple miscarriages? or any number of ills that befalls good people (or even bad ones)?

    but then it comes back to the test again i guess.
    YES, and as I have said before, these tests do not, necessarily, only come in the forms of loss, hardships and miseries, BUT, the tests can also come in the forms of good blessings (wealth, good health, etc) too. It’s how we react, when faced with these tests and trials, that matters. The good news, however, (or the bad news in the case of good blessings), is that these tests are temporary. So, when faced with misery or hardship, hang on there with patience and when blessed with good fortune, do not be arrogant but be grateful and thankful.

  3. #82
    New Member Uzee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Gender
    Girl Female
    Posts
    17
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    2 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    17

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Hi SIRULES,

    Actually, Sceptic did answer that, which more or less, the same answer as you gave, and that is, no one can be sure that if God does not exist, all the hardships, miseries and “bad” things in the world would not have happened. If that’s the case, then the logical conclusion is that if, with God or without God, miseries and hardships will still happen, then, God is not the cause of all the miseries and hardships in this world. It’s like if, with gas or without gas, the stalled car would not fire up, then, gas is not the cause of the car breaking down – in both cases, it’s something else.



    YES, and as I have said before, these tests do not, necessarily, only come in the forms of loss, hardships and miseries, BUT, the tests can also come in the forms of good blessings (wealth, good health, etc) too. It’s how we react, when faced with these tests and trials, that matters. The good news, however, (or the bad news in the case of good blessings), is that these tests are temporary. So, when faced with misery or hardship, hang on there with patience and when blessed with good fortune, do not be arrogant but be grateful and thankful.
    Brother I always wanted to ask this question to someone.

    Does Allah test non muslims too? Because all those horrible congenital diseases, heart defects and cancers don't seem to target any particular faith group. We had a case in our neighborhood and the baby passed away few week after suffering horrible pains and that made me think why he came to this world.

  4. #83
    Kaffir SILURES's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    18,210
    Mentioned
    88 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1424 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    514

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    Then your post where you pretended you didn't know the Islamic reply was a case of clear Trolling.

    Don't reflect your antics on me.
    not very bright are you...i knew the answer because someone posted a reply to me which answered my question.

    i didnt pretend to not know.

    i asked and was told by jerry.

    how is that so hard for you to see? is it because you ALLWAYS see me post and just go straight on the attack without even reading what im commenting?

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Hi SIRULES,

    Actually, Sceptic did answer that, which more or less, the same answer as you gave, and that is, no one can be sure that if God does not exist, all the hardships, miseries and “bad” things in the world would not have happened. If that’s the case, then the logical conclusion is that if, with God or without God, miseries and hardships will still happen, then, God is not the cause of all the miseries and hardships in this world. It’s like if, with gas or without gas, the stalled car would not fire up, then, gas is not the cause of the car breaking down – in both cases, it’s something else.



    YES, and as I have said before, these tests do not, necessarily, only come in the forms of loss, hardships and miseries, BUT, the tests can also come in the forms of good blessings (wealth, good health, etc) too. It’s how we react, when faced with these tests and trials, that matters. The good news, however, (or the bad news in the case of good blessings), is that these tests are temporary. So, when faced with misery or hardship, hang on there with patience and when blessed with good fortune, do not be arrogant but be grateful and thankful.
    sorry i didnt see sceptics reply.

    good point sometimes to much good fortune can corrupt people.

    look at the horror stories of people who win the lottery and end up in the papers on drugs and god knows what.

    There are two kinds of pride, both good and bad. 'Good pride' represents our dignity and self-respect. 'Bad pride' is the deadly sin of superiority that reeks of conceit and arrogance.



  5. #84
    Odan
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Gender
    Girl Unspecified
    Posts
    2,165
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1415 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    22

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    “Bad” things in life happened, NOT by design (of God) but by man’s own design and doing. To put that into perspective, God created light, NOT darkness, BUT with the absence of light came darkness.

    Similarly, with the absence of “good” in man, came “bad” things in man and in life. Thus, with the continuous ‘growth’ of absence of “good” in man, perhaps, you are right, we have reached the stage where ‘the "bad" things in life far outweigh the "good" things’. Question is - should man blame God or take the responsibility and do something about it ?
    So, man created smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes...?
    You have remarkable faith in man's inventiveness and malignity.


    Of course, the choices are your own as you are given the faculty of intelligence to think and rationalize to make the choice. God’s All-Knowing Knowledge does not affect your choice. God knew what choice you will make because He knew you better than you knew yourself. You may believe, or not believe, in Him today, BUT do you know what your belief will be in the future ? You may think you know BUT you don’t, God does.
    So, entirely coincidentally, everyone always chooses to do what god knew they would do before god created them and god didn't (couldn't?) choose otherwise.



    Well, that seem so to you because you see God’s All-Knowing Knowledge of the future as an over-powering factor to man’s capability to make a choice – that’s not the objective. Yes, God knows every decision of your actions even before you make them. God also knows who will end up in Heaven and who will end up in Hell. God know all these because He knew the choices you will make in this life that will ultimately seal your fate in the afterlife. However, knowing the choices you will make DOES NOT mean God made the choices FOR YOU – no, the choices you make are strictly yours.
    ...except that god chose to decide you would make those choices.

    Imagine an exam invigilator walking pass students taking their final exam papers in a hall. He passed 2 students and had a quick glance at their answers to one of the objective question - the invigilator knew the answer to the objective question because he had a hand in the preparation of the exam paper and thus he knew one student selected the right answer while the other selected the wrong answer. Now, just because he knew the answer and had known which student had chosen the right and wrong answer, does that mean the invigilator had made the choice for the 2 students because he had allowed the students to select the answer, irrespective whether its right or wrong ? Of course not as the choice to select the right answer is still the choice of the students. Moreover, if he had intervened and help the student to select the right answer, he would not have been a fair and just invigilator, now, would he ?
    ...except that in this case, the invigilator knew before the exam the exact answers they would give, the exact words they would use, the pens they would use to write those words, whether one of the pens would run out of ink, where the paper the answers are written on would be made, the detail of every atom in the chairs the students sit on...literally, absolutely everything about the students before the students were conceived or conceived of.

    Similarly, God does not make the choice for you, God, however, knew the choices you will eventually make. Do you get what I am trying to tell you ?
    Yes, I get it and it's nonsense. God knows the choices I will make and the things that will happen because I make those choices and the choices other people will make as a result and the consequences of those choices and...
    Once you believe god knows everything - literally everything - that happens then you must logically believe that everything must happen as it does.
    John Wayne was right: If there is an all-knowing all-powerful god "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do."

    Then why put all the blames of “bad things” that happened in life to God if you believe even if there’s no God, these “bad things” will still occur?? Why do you think these “bad things” would still be happening even if there’s no God ??
    The bad things do happen. They are bad from a human perspective: a plague bacillus, if it could reason it out, would maintain that the Black Death was actually a good thing. Believing in god is - among other things - an attempt to pretend that they aren't bad, that they somehow mean something and have a purpose.


    Well then, someone should have also asked Mr. Darwin whether he believe if there’s no God, all the misery in the world would NOT have happened ??
    The atheist's argument is not that if there were no belief in god there would be no misery. The argument here is that belief in god means a pretence that everything god does is somehow good. I notice that you haven't dealt with Darwin's actual argument. So, why did "a beneficent and omnipotent God ...designedly create... the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice"?

    The arguments are not against a god or gods in general, but against the belief in a particular god, with particular attributes, with particular concerns with human beings and the belief that humans differ from other animals in possessing a soul which is somehow immortal and that god will reward or punish that soul for the things that humans do in their lifetimes.
    Last edited by Sceptic; 31-10-17 at 01:08 AM.

  6. #85
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    438
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Quoted
    323 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    So, man created smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes...?
    Well, in case you are not aware, man are not the only living species on this earth. You should know better that man do not create smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes. But then, that’s really not your argument, is it ? Your argument is WHY God, the All Powerful, will allow such “bad things” like smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes and what not, to happen, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    You have remarkable faith in man's inventiveness and malignity.
    Not really, I have faith in God, not man. YOU have faith in a man. So, it’s really you who have remarkable faith in man's (Darwin’s) inventiveness and malignity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    So, entirely coincidentally, everyone always chooses to do what god knew they would do before god created them and god didn't (couldn't?) choose otherwise.
    ...except that god chose to decide you would make those choices.
    Not exactly. God knew the choice you will make BUT He did not decide or make that choice for you.

    Let me give you an analogy to make it clearer – let’s say you are able to travel back in time to Dallas, 1953, in which case, you knew that 10 years later, in 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald is going to gun down JFK in Dallas before he (Lee H. Oswald) even know that he’s going to do that. The fact you knew and did nothing to prevent that assassination of JFK does not mean you make the decision or choice for Lee H. Oswald - that choice will still be made by Lee himself, not you - you just knew the choice he will make eventually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    ...except that in this case, the invigilator knew before the exam the exact answers they would give, the exact words they would use, the pens they would use to write those words, whether one of the pens would run out of ink, where the paper the answers are written on would be made, the detail of every atom in the chairs the students sit on...literally, absolutely everything about the students before the students were conceived or conceived of.
    Yes, but I don’t see how all that mean the invigilator made the choice for the student.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Yes, I get it and it's nonsense. God knows the choices I will make and the things that will happen because I make those choices and the choices other people will make as a result and the consequences of those choices and...
    If you think it’s nonsense, then, you simply did not get it and probably never will. You simply cannot accept the fact that an All-Knowing God DID NOT make the choices you make in life. You believe all the bad choices you made are actually God choices and all the good and right choices you made are because of your own intelligence. Well, that’s your belief and its fine because that’s your choice… or is it ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Once you believe god knows everything - literally everything - that happens then you must logically believe that everything must happen as it does.
    John Wayne was right: If there is an all-knowing all-powerful god "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do."
    Well, John Wayne was right - "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" – hopefully, the man is doing the RIGHT thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    The bad things do happen. They are bad from a human perspective: a plague bacillus, if it could reason it out, would maintain that the Black Death was actually a good thing. Believing in god is - among other things - an attempt to pretend that they aren't bad, that they somehow mean something and have a purpose.
    You are right – “bad” things and death do happen, with or without God, and they are bad from a human perspective. However, from a higher perspective, maybe, a ‘check and balance’ mechanism is at work here. Imagine a world where there’s no deadly diseases, no calamities and everyone is capable to live far beyond 100, 200, 300..years, what kind of world will that be today ?? Can this world sustain a population that grow and grow with very minimal death rate ?? Or will we end up as savages fighting for every inch of space and food for survival ??

    Point is, yes, “bad” things and loss of lives are always bad moments in our lives and no one is going to pretend they are good but sometimes “bad” things and deaths happened for a greater cause which we. as humans are not capable to comprehend.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    The atheist's argument is not that if there were no belief in god there would be no misery. The argument here is that belief in god means a pretence that everything god does is somehow good. I notice that you haven't dealt with Darwin's actual argument. So, why did "a beneficent and omnipotent God ...designedly create... the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice"?
    What is Darwin’s actual argument ?? Surely it cannot be about "a beneficent and omnipotent God ...designedly create... the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    The arguments are not against a god or gods in general, but against the belief in a particular god, with particular attributes, with particular concerns with human beings and the belief that humans differ from other animals in possessing a soul which is somehow immortal and that god will reward or punish that soul for the things that humans do in their lifetimes.
    I thought an atheist’s stand is just about the non-existence of a God rather than the existence of a God. Period. If you are saying “the arguments are not against a god or gods in general, but against the belief in a particular god”, are you now saying an atheist actually believe in a God BUT an atheist’s argument is only against the BELIEF that God is good ??

  7. #86
    Odan
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Gender
    Girl Unspecified
    Posts
    2,165
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1415 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    22

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Well, in case you are not aware, man are not the only living species on this earth. You should know better that man do not create smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes. But then, that’s really not your argument, is it ? Your argument is WHY God, the All Powerful, will allow such “bad things” like smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes and what not, to happen, right?
    Right. So, why did God, the All Powerful, allow such “bad things” like smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes and what not, to happen?


    Not really, I have faith in God, not man. YOU have faith in a man. So, it’s really you who have remarkable faith in man's (Darwin’s) inventiveness and malignity.
    It looks very much as if you believe man created “bad things” like smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes and what not.


    Not exactly. God knew the choice you will make BUT He did not decide or make that choice for you.

    Let me give you an analogy to make it clearer – let’s say you are able to travel back in time to Dallas, 1953, in which case, you knew that 10 years later, in 1963, Lee Harvey Oswald is going to gun down JFK in Dallas before he (Lee H. Oswald) even know that he’s going to do that. The fact you knew and did nothing to prevent that assassination of JFK does not mean you make the decision or choice for Lee H. Oswald - that choice will still be made by Lee himself, not you - you just knew the choice he will make eventually.
    In this case, if I knew what god is supposed to know, I would know absolutely everything: the whole history of the world at a sub-microscopic level up to Kennedy's assassination and beyond; the trajectories of the bullets, the movement of every atom in the air shifted by those bullets, the movement of every atom in Kennedy's body, the precise consequences for the whole of eternity of every movement and every atom. He knows every movement of the neurons and axons in Oswald's brain that will lead him to decide to assassinate Kennedy. You might say that god has arranged the whole universe up to that point so that Oswald will kill Kennedy. You are talking about a different kind of knowledge and the fact that god also decides what will happen means that it has to happen as god decides.


    Yes, but I don’t see how all that [the invigilator knew before the exam the exact answers they would give, the exact words they would use, the pens they would use to write those words, whether one of the pens would run out of ink, where the paper the answers are written on would be made, the detail of every atom in the chairs the students sit on...literally, absolutely everything about the students before the students were conceived or conceived of.] mean the invigilator made the choice for the student.
    Can the student do something the invigilator didn't know he would do? In this case, god, the invigilator, decided what would happen as a result of the examinee's actions when the examinee didn't even exist.



    If you think it’s nonsense, then, you simply did not get it and probably never will. You simply cannot accept the fact that an All-Knowing God DID NOT make the choices you make in life. You believe all the bad choices you made are actually God choices and all the good and right choices you made are because of your own intelligence. Well, that’s your belief and its fine because that’s your choice… or is it ??
    If someone can't choose to do something god didn't expect them to do, can they actually choose? God knew and decided - by action or inaction - what they would do.
    Well, John Wayne was right - "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" – hopefully, the man is doing the RIGHT thing.
    It doesn't matter whether it's the RIGHT thing, or merely the right thing. He's gotta do it.



    You are right – “bad” things and death do happen, with or without God, and they are bad from a human perspective. However, from a higher perspective, maybe, a ‘check and balance’ mechanism is at work here. Imagine a world where there’s no deadly diseases, no calamities and everyone is capable to live far beyond 100, 200, 300..years, what kind of world will that be today ?? Can this world sustain a population that grow and grow with very minimal death rate ?? Or will we end up as savages fighting for every inch of space and food for survival ??

    Point is, yes, “bad” things and loss of lives are always bad moments in our lives and no one is going to pretend they are good but sometimes “bad” things and deaths happened for a greater cause which we. as humans are not capable to comprehend.
    You mean we don't know what will happen because of particular actions. We don't know if bad things happened for a greater cause and even if we are told they did, that doesn't mean they did. That is the justification of dishonest politicians.


    What is Darwin’s actual argument ?? Surely it cannot be about "a beneficent and omnipotent God ...designedly create... the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice"?
    You're the one that claims "a beneficent and omnipotent God ...designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice". So why did he?


    I thought an atheist’s stand is just about the non-existence of a God rather than the existence of a God. Period. If you are saying “the arguments are not against a god or gods in general, but against the belief in a particular god”, are you now saying an atheist actually believe in a God BUT an atheist’s argument is only against the BELIEF that God is good ??
    You're confusing the meaning of atheist. Atheist actually means someone who isn't a theist. Shelley at the beginning of The Necessity of Atheism made the distinction clear:
    There Is No God

    This negation must be understood solely to affect a creative Deity. The hypothesis of a pervading Spirit co-eternal with the universe remains unshaken.
    https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet....arch/necessity
    In English, "atheist" was originally a term used to denounce deists. Ralegh and his "School of Night" - most of whom were thought to be deists - were denounced as atheists. Obviously, the argument that a "a beneficent and omnipotent God ...designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice" is not an argument against the existence of gods, but against the existence of a beneficent god and the belief that there could be a beneficent god. The problem is that most believers do believe just that and it influences the way they behave.

    If god is all-knowing and all-powerful, then the universe is completely solid in every direction. Everything that happens is determined in every detail down to the subatomic level. Because god knows every detail of what happens everything has to happen exactly as god decides. God creates the whole universe - past and future - at once. In fact, it's perfectly possible god hasn't created the universe yet.
    Last edited by Sceptic; 31-10-17 at 01:02 PM.

  8. #87
    Its fine, take a 38mm noobz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    47,696
    Mentioned
    352 Post(s)
    Quoted
    8070 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    729

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    atheist : if there is a God then why is there suffering and evil in the world?

    Person A : so basically if there was no suffering and evil(that too depends on what is evil based on an atheists perspective) , then thats the criteria for there to be a God?

    Atheist : .............




  9. #88
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    438
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Quoted
    323 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Right. So, why did God, the All Powerful, allow such “bad things” like smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes and what not, to happen?
    Why are you asking me that when you don’t believe in a God ? Perhaps the question atheists like you should ask is - why do “bad things” like smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes and what not, happened when there’s no God ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    It looks very much as if you believe man created “bad things” like smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes and what not.
    Now when did I imply that ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    In this case, if I knew what god is supposed to know, I would know absolutely everything: the whole history of the world at a sub-microscopic level up to Kennedy's assassination and beyond; the trajectories of the bullets, the movement of every atom in the air shifted by those bullets, the movement of every atom in Kennedy's body, the precise consequences for the whole of eternity of every movement and every atom. He knows every movement of the neurons and axons in Oswald's brain that will lead him to decide to assassinate Kennedy. You might say that god has arranged the whole universe up to that point so that Oswald will kill Kennedy. You are talking about a different kind of knowledge and the fact that god also decides what will happen means that it has to happen as god decides.
    Again, you are talking hypothetically – “IF I knew what god is supposed to know…”, the fact is, YOU don’t know what God is supposed to know – nobody does, only God knows what He knows and what you will eventually do. Again, that does not mean He decides for you. Guess that's hard for you to grasp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Can the student do something the invigilator didn't know he would do? In this case, god, the invigilator, decided what would happen as a result of the examinee's actions when the examinee didn't even exist.
    Sure, the student can decide to throw his pen at the strike of 12 noon and the invigilator would not know the student is going to do that – how could he - he’s not God. The invigilator ‘all-knowing’ knowledge is only confined to the exam papers, nothing more.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    If someone can't choose to do something god didn't expect them to do, can they actually choose? God knew and decided - by action or inaction - what they would do.
    Again, God knew of your potential actions but He did not decide that for you. For example, God knew you are going to steal money from your mother BUT the decision to steal is your choice, not His. So, it’s not about “someone can't choose to do something”, but rather, its about someone can choose anything he wants to do, God however, already know what eventually you will do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    It doesn't matter whether it's the RIGHT thing, or merely the right thing. He's gotta do it.
    Yes, of course – that’s why I said HOPEFULLY, whatever “he gotta to” do is the RIGHT thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    You mean we don't know what will happen because of particular actions. We don't know if bad things happened for a greater cause and even if we are told they did, that doesn't mean they did. That is the justification of dishonest politicians.
    You mean we know what will happen because of particular actions ?? Believers believe (because they believe in God) bad things happened for a reason, which could be for a greater cause, but what do atheists like you believe when bad things happen ? After all, you don't believe in a God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    You're the one that claims "a beneficent and omnipotent God ...designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice". So why did he?
    Now when did I ever claim "a beneficent and omnipotent God ...designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice" ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    You're confusing the meaning of atheist. Atheist actually means someone who isn't a theist. Shelley at the beginning of The Necessity of Atheism made the distinction clear:
    There Is No God
    This negation must be understood solely to affect a creative Deity. The hypothesis of a pervading Spirit co-eternal with the universe remains unshaken.
    https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet....arch/necessity
    In English, "atheist" was originally a term used to denounce deists. Ralegh and his "School of Night" - most of whom were thought to be deists - were denounced as atheists. Obviously, the argument that a "a beneficent and omnipotent God ...designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice" is not an argument against the existence of gods, but against the existence of a beneficent god and the belief that there could be a beneficent god. The problem is that most believers do believe just that and it influences the way they behave.
    Yes, I know what an atheist is. But maybe you are right – I may be a bit confused here as your arguments are so much about why God do this and do that or why God allow this or that, I am beginning to believe that an atheist actually believe in a God !! Perhaps, your arguments should be more focus on why this or that happened in the absence of God rather than why God allow this or that to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    If god is all-knowing and all-powerful, then the universe is completely solid in every direction. Everything that happens is determined in every detail down to the subatomic level. Because god knows every detail of what happens everything has to happen exactly as god decides. God creates the whole universe - past and future - at once. In fact, it's perfectly possible god hasn't created the universe yet.
    I am not sure I understand your intended message here – is that for the existence of God OR for the non-existence of a God ??

  10. #89
    New Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    25
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    21 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    40

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Again, you are talking hypothetically – “IF I knew what god is supposed to know…”, the fact is, YOU don’t know what God is supposed to know – nobody does, only God knows what He knows and what you will eventually do. Again, that does not mean He decides for you. Guess that's hard for you to grasp.
    I'm pretty sure that Sceptic understands the distinction you are making. Foreknowledge does not, by itself, imply control or responsibility.

    But God isn't just all-knowing. He's also all-powerful, and the creator of the universe. When you put all these ingredients together, that's when it becomes clear that God shares responsibility for what goes on in the world.

    So, for example, God knew, at the moment of creation, that Oswald would murder Kennedy. He could have created the universe differently, so that Oswald's gun jammed, or so that the neurons in Oswald's brain fired just differently enough that he got cold feet and didn't go through with the murder. But God didn't create the universe that way. Out of all the possible worlds God could have created, he decided to create the "Oswald murders Kennedy" one.

  11. #90
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    438
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Quoted
    323 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    I'm pretty sure that Sceptic understands the distinction you are making. Foreknowledge does not, by itself, imply control or responsibility.

    But God isn't just all-knowing. He's also all-powerful, and the creator of the universe. When you put all these ingredients together, that's when it becomes clear that God shares responsibility for what goes on in the world.

    So, for example, God knew, at the moment of creation, that Oswald would murder Kennedy. He could have created the universe differently, so that Oswald's gun jammed, or so that the neurons in Oswald's brain fired just differently enough that he got cold feet and didn't go through with the murder. But God didn't create the universe that way. Out of all the possible worlds God could have created, he decided to create the "Oswald murders Kennedy" one.
    Sure, God could create a different reality in which case, JFK was not assassinated. In fact, God can create a different reality where no one dies, no diseases, no sadness and every one can have anything they desire ! Well, He did and that reality is called Heaven but before you can get to THAT reality, you are tested and vetted for your eligibility in this earth lifetime.

    You may ask why the need to test for eligibility when He could just allow everyone in ? Yes, He could, BUT did you ever question why not everyone can join just any of the prestigious private clubs around the world like the Yellow Stone Club in Montana where the joining fee alone will cost you USD250,000 ? These prestigious clubs are like heavens too !! To join ‘heavens’ like the Yellow Stone Club, you are also ‘tested’ or vetted for eligibility just as you are tested or vetted for eligibility to join the Heaven Club in the afterlife. The only difference between the tests for ‘heaven’ clubs in this earth lifetime and the tests for the Heaven Club in the afterlife is that the tests or validations for the heavens on earth are materialistic and status-oriented while the tests/validations for the Heaven Club in the afterlife are neither materialistic nor status-oriented but just based on your faith in God and good deeds – not to mention your life in earth’s heavens is temporary while your life in the afterlife Heaven is for eternity.

    So, it’s rather strange that you can accept all the ‘tests’ and validations for a life of bliss in this earth lifetime and yet question the tests and validations for a life of bliss in the afterlife. But then again, how could you (or Sceptic) understand the distinction I am making when you don’t believe in a God ??

  12. #91
    New Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    25
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    21 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    40

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Sure, God could create a different reality in which case, JFK was not assassinated. In fact, God can create a different reality where no one dies, no diseases, no sadness and every one can have anything they desire ! Well, He did and that reality is called Heaven but before you can get to THAT reality, you are tested and vetted for your eligibility in this earth lifetime.

    You may ask why the need to test for eligibility when He could just allow everyone in ? Yes, He could, BUT did you ever question why not everyone can join just any of the prestigious private clubs around the world like the Yellow Stone Club in Montana where the joining fee alone will cost you USD250,000 ? These prestigious clubs are like heavens too !! To join ‘heavens’ like the Yellow Stone Club, you are also ‘tested’ or vetted for eligibility just as you are tested or vetted for eligibility to join the Heaven Club in the afterlife. The only difference between the tests for ‘heaven’ clubs in this earth lifetime and the tests for the Heaven Club in the afterlife is that the tests or validations for the heavens on earth are materialistic and status-oriented while the tests/validations for the Heaven Club in the afterlife are neither materialistic nor status-oriented but just based on your faith in God and good deeds – not to mention your life in earth’s heavens is temporary while your life in the afterlife Heaven is for eternity.
    I don't know why YS club charges $250,000 for membership. My guess is, they want to make sure only rich people join because they believe that non-rich people will be starstruck by celebrity members and may otherwise annoy the rich members. But in any case, I fail to see how that's relevant. I hope you're not trying to say that God is only interested in people who have enough money! No, of course not. But then, what are you trying to say? Why do you think God needs to test people before they can enter Heaven?

    God already knows, well, everything. So, no test is required for him to learn about us. What, then, is the test for?

  13. #92
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    438
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Quoted
    323 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    I don't know why YS club charges $250,000 for membership. My guess is, they want to make sure only rich people join because they believe that non-rich people will be starstruck by celebrity members and may otherwise annoy the rich members. But in any case, I fail to see how that's relevant. I hope you're not trying to say that God is only interested in people who have enough money! No, of course not.
    Of course not. I clearly said “The only difference between the tests for ‘heaven’ clubs in this earth lifetime and the tests for the Heaven Club in the afterlife is that the tests or validations for the heavens on earth are materialistic and status-oriented while the tests/validations for the Heaven Club in the afterlife are neither materialistic nor status-oriented but just based on your faith in God and good deeds”.

    So, why even make a statement as if I was 'trying to say that God is only interested in people who have enough money' ??

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    But then, what are you trying to say? Why do you think God needs to test people before they can enter Heaven?

    God already knows, well, everything. So, no test is required for him to learn about us. What, then, is the test for?
    I thought you would understand, as in your previous post, you said “Foreknowledge does not, by itself, imply control or responsibility.” In other words, the person having the foreknowledge (of future events) have a choice to take control and take responsibility as in ‘be involved’ BUT that does not mean because he has the foreknowledge, he HAS TO take control and be involved.

    God test people before they can enter Heaven because He gave man the faculty of intelligence to make decisions and choices. He tests man of their faith in Him and their deeds in their lifetime on earth. The tests can be in the forms of hardships, losses, etc, or in the forms of blessings such as wealth, health, etc.

    Question is - do you believe in God to understand what I am saying ??

  14. #93
    New Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    25
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    21 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    40

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Of course not. I clearly said “The only difference between the tests for ‘heaven’ clubs in this earth lifetime and the tests for the Heaven Club in the afterlife is that the tests or validations for the heavens on earth are materialistic and status-oriented while the tests/validations for the Heaven Club in the afterlife are neither materialistic nor status-oriented but just based on your faith in God and good deeds”.

    So, why even make a statement as if I was 'trying to say that God is only interested in people who have enough money' ??



    I thought you would understand, as in your previous post, you said “Foreknowledge does not, by itself, imply control or responsibility.” In other words, the person having the foreknowledge (of future events) have a choice to take control and take responsibility as in ‘be involved’ BUT that does not mean because he has the foreknowledge, he HAS TO take control and be involved.

    God test people before they can enter Heaven because He gave man the faculty of intelligence to make decisions and choices. He tests man of their faith in Him and their deeds in their lifetime on earth. The tests can be in the forms of hardships, losses, etc, or in the forms of blessings such as wealth, health, etc.
    Sorry if I was unclear about the Yellowstone Club comment. When I wrote "of course not," I was trying to say, "of course you're not saying that God tests us to make sure we have enough money." The problem is, I'm not sure what you were trying to do with the Yellowstone analogy. It seemed, well, irrelevant to me. Maybe you were just using it for color or something.

    Anyway, moving on.

    I still don't understand what you think the are the purposes of God's tests for us. Yes, we can make choices. Yes, we can have hardships, or blessings. But none of that tells us why God wants to test us, and that's what I'm asking you.

    To put it another way: Why does God bother with tests? Why not simply create the people he wants in Heaven, and take them straight there? The people he doesn't want in Heaven, he doesn't have to create, right?

    Question is - do you believe in God to understand what I am saying ??
    I don't believe in God, no.
    Last edited by hatsoff; 04-11-17 at 12:12 PM.

  15. #94
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    438
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Quoted
    323 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    Sorry if I was unclear about the Yellowstone Club comment. When I wrote "of course not," I was trying to say, "of course you're not saying that God tests us to make sure we have enough money." The problem is, I'm not sure what you were trying to do with the Yellowstone analogy. It seemed, well, irrelevant to me. Maybe you were just using it for color or something.
    Now why would I be using the analogy of Yellowstone Club for color or something which obviously would not make any sense to what we are discussing here, now would it ?

    The analogy of the Yellowstone Club was to show the similarity (with Heaven's entry) of the necessity to ‘filter’ people before they are accepted. You really can’t see or just refuse to see that similarity ?


    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    I still don't understand what you think the are the purposes of God's tests for us. Yes, we can make choices. Yes, we can have hardships, or blessings. But none of that tells us why God wants to test us, and that's what I'm asking you.

    To put it another way: Why does God bother with tests? Why not simply create the people he wants in Heaven, and take them straight there? The people he doesn't want in Heaven, he doesn't have to create, right?

    I don't believe in God, no.
    I don’t really expect you to understand the purpose of God’s tests IF you don’t believe in God, how could you ?

    If you don’t believe in God, it also means you don’t believe in Heaven and Hell, so why even ask “Why not God simply create the people he wants in Heaven, and take them straight there? The people he doesn't want in Heaven, he doesn't have to create, right ?“ when God, Heaven and Hell have no meaning to you ?? Are you always interested in matters that you don't believe in ??

  16. #95
    New Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    25
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    21 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    40

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Now why would I be using the analogy of Yellowstone Club for color or something which obviously would not make any sense to what we are discussing here, now would it ?

    The analogy of the Yellowstone Club was to show the similarity (with Heaven's entry) of the necessity to ‘filter’ people before they are accepted. You really can’t see or just refuse to see that similarity ?
    I can certainly see why God might not want to have a bunch of jerks in Heaven. What I don't see is why he needs earthly tests to weed out those jerks.

    I don’t really expect you to understand the purpose of God’s tests IF you don’t believe in God, how could you ?
    One has nothing obviously to do with the other. I could as easily ask you, "if you believe in God, how could you possibly understand why the God character is evil?"

    But such comments generally don't help a dialog.

    If you don’t believe in God, it also means you don’t believe in Heaven and Hell, so why even ask “Why not God simply create the people he wants in Heaven, and take them straight there? The people he doesn't want in Heaven, he doesn't have to create, right ?“ when God, Heaven and Hell have no meaning to you ?? Are you always interested in matters that you don't believe in ??
    I noticed you still haven't answered my question. Why does God need to test people on earth before he lets them into Heaven?

    The thing is, I don't think there is any good answer, and so it doesn't surprise me that you haven't provided one. That's why I asked---to underscore the lack of an answer.

  17. #96
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    438
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Quoted
    323 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    I can certainly see why God might not want to have a bunch of jerks in Heaven. What I don't see is why he needs earthly tests to weed out those jerks.
    Are you implying that God should just allow all those jerks into Heaven ?

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    One has nothing obviously to do with the other.
    Of course, one has everything to do with the other. If you don’t even believe in a God, how can you understand God ?? You probably know what a God is BUT you will never understand God if you don’t believe in a God. Knowing the definition of a God and understanding God are two very different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    I could as easily ask you, "if you believe in God, how could you possibly understand why the God character is evil?"
    Yes, you could, and the opposite of that would mean because you don’t believe in God, therefore, you “understand why the God character is evil”. That would be contradictory, to say the least, to your belief because if you can understand God’s character (good or evil, according to your understanding) then, you actually believe in a God.

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    I noticed you still haven't answered my question. Why does God need to test people on earth before he lets them into Heaven?

    The thing is, I don't think there is any good answer, and so it doesn't surprise me that you haven't provided one. That's why I asked---to underscore the lack of an answer.
    Well, lack of answer is not the reason and ‘good’ or ‘bad’ answer is very subjective as it depends on the readers’ understanding and belief.

    The fact is, Sceptic asked a similar question and I have responded to that question in my post #74. You can read it there BUT I don’t expect you to understand as you don’t believe in God.

  18. #97
    New Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    25
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    21 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    40

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Are you implying that God should just allow all those jerks into Heaven ?
    The short answer is no.

    The long answer is, I think even jerks and criminals ought to be well-treated as much as is practical. The reason we (sometimes) ought to punish bad behavior isn't because we want payback, or have stopped caring about the person doing the bad things, or anything like that. Rather, it's part of a social system whereby we want to discourage bad behavior and encourage good behavior. But we still (I hope) care for our fellow man, regardless of their crimes. Now, presumably God has the ability to allow jerks into Heaven, or a parallel Heaven, without endangering the well-being of everyone else. He's omnipotent and omniscient, after all. So hopefully he has better ideas to get people to behave than to torment them for eternity.

    However, this is somewhat far afield of what we've been discussing, so for the sake of argument I'm willing to leave out the jerks of the world. Hence, I suggested that God create only the people he wants in Heaven, and refrain from creating anyone destined for eternal torment. (See post #93.) If that means not creating any jerks, so be it.

    Of course, one has everything to do with the other. If you don’t even believe in a God, how can you understand God ?? You probably know what a God is BUT you will never understand God if you don’t believe in a God. Knowing the definition of a God and understanding God are two very different things.

    Yes, you could, and the opposite of that would mean because you don’t believe in God, therefore, you “understand why the God character is evil”. That would be contradictory, to say the least, to your belief because if you can understand God’s character (good or evil, according to your understanding) then, you actually believe in a God.
    I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say, here. But maybe this will help: I'm not claiming to understand everything about the God character. I only claim to have arrived at some basic, reasonable conclusions based on his alleged attributes.

    Well, lack of answer is not the reason and ‘good’ or ‘bad’ answer is very subjective as it depends on the readers’ understanding and belief.

    The fact is, Sceptic asked a similar question and I have responded to that question in my post #74. You can read it there BUT I don’t expect you to understand as you don’t believe in God.
    I believe I understand, but if you revisit our past comments you will recall that I'm asking about the scenario where God only creates the people who are Heaven-bound. Your comments in post #74 express concern that the people being punished in the afterlife would be punished unjustly. Now, I think there are serious problems with this response even in its original context. But leaving that aside, it simply doesn't make any sense as an answer to my question here, since I'm asking about a scenario where there is no such punishment.
    Last edited by hatsoff; 04-11-17 at 06:06 PM.

  19. #98
    Odan
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Gender
    Girl Unspecified
    Posts
    2,165
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1415 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    22

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Why are you asking me that when you don’t believe in a God ? Perhaps the question atheists like you should ask is - why do “bad things” like smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes and what not, happened when there’s no God ??
    You're the chap saying a good and benevolent god came up with smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes and what not. So, what were the reasons? My own opinion is that biologists are probably right in saying that they are the results of evolutionary adaptations to survive by various biological entities.



    Now when did I imply that ?
    In post 88, where you said: "“Bad” things in life happened, NOT by design (of God) but by man’s own design and doing. To put that into perspective, God created light, NOT darkness, BUT with the absence of light came darkness."
    Are you saying “bad things” like smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes and what not happened not by design (of God) but by man’s own design and doing? If that isn't what you mean, what do you mean?



    Again, you are talking hypothetically – “IF I knew what god is supposed to know…”, the fact is, YOU don’t know what God is supposed to know – nobody does, only God knows what He knows and what you will eventually do. Again, that does not mean He decides for you. Guess that's hard for you to grasp.
    I know what god is supposed to know. You know what god is supposed to know. The standard claim made by Christians and muslims is that god knows everything, literally, everything. Are you saying that isn't both what christians and muslims say? If you don't believe that yourself, what do you believe?



    Sure, the student can decide to throw his pen at the strike of 12 noon and the invigilator would not know the student is going to do that – how could he - he’s not God. The invigilator ‘all-knowing’ knowledge is only confined to the exam papers, nothing more.
    ...but god knew and arranged that the student decides to throw his pen at the strike of 12 noon because god knows where the pen will land at a second past the strike of 12 noon.



    Again, God knew of your potential actions but He did not decide that for you. For example, God knew you are going to steal money from your mother BUT the decision to steal is your choice, not His. So, it’s not about “someone can't choose to do something”, but rather, its about someone can choose anything he wants to do, God however, already know what eventually you will do.
    ...so he can choose to do anything he wants to do, as long as it's what god already knows - and has decided - he's going to do.



    Yes, of course – that’s why I said HOPEFULLY, whatever “he gotta to” do is the RIGHT thing.
    ...but it's a different kind of "gotta". Wayne was speaking of a moral obligation. In the case of god, "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do", just as an object falling to earth in a vacuum has got to fall with an acceleration of thirty two feet per second. There is literally no alternative.




    You mean we know what will happen because of particular actions ?? Believers believe (because they believe in God) bad things happened for a reason, which could be for a greater cause, but what do atheists like you believe when bad things happen ? After all, you don't believe in a God.
    ...an allegedly greater cause. As you don't know what it is, how do you know it's greater or that it's somehow good?


    Now when did I ever claim "a beneficent and omnipotent God ...designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice" ??
    So, are you saying "a beneficent and omnipotent God" didn't "designedly creat... the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice". Is that because god wasn't all-knowing or because god had no choice or because someone or something else "designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice"?


    Yes, I know what an atheist is. But maybe you are right – I may be a bit confused here as your arguments are so much about why God do this and do that or why God allow this or that, I am beginning to believe that an atheist actually believe in a God !! Perhaps, your arguments should be more focus on why this or that happened in the absence of God rather than why God allow this or that to happen.
    You must have come across the reduction ad absurdum before - the logical inferences to be drawn from an argument to show what's wrong with the argument. in this case, I'm doing it with the claim that there is a beneficent and omnipotent God that knows everything.

    I am not sure I understand your intended message here – is that for the existence of God OR for the non-existence of a God ??
    It's for the falsity of the claim humans have free will, if there is an all-knowing all-powerful god.

  20. #99
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    438
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Quoted
    323 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    The short answer is no.

    The long answer is, I think even jerks and criminals ought to be well-treated as much as is practical. The reason we (sometimes) ought to punish bad behavior isn't because we want payback, or have stopped caring about the person doing the bad things, or anything like that. Rather, it's part of a social system whereby we want to discourage bad behavior and encourage good behavior. But we still (I hope) care for our fellow man, regardless of their crimes. Now, presumably God has the ability to allow jerks into Heaven, or a parallel Heaven, without endangering the well-being of everyone else. He's omnipotent and omniscient, after all. So hopefully he has better ideas to get people to behave than to torment them for eternity.
    Well, how then would you suggest we should treat jerks and criminals regardless of their crimes ?? How about that jerk who used a truck to plough thru a crowd in NYC recently ?? Should we give him a bouquet of flowers and a hug, then say “You have been a bad, bad boy, you killed 8 people, don’t do it again. Run along now, and have a good day!” ?? You seriously believe that would discourage him and other jerks from carrying out the same act of terror in the future ??

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    However, this is somewhat far afield of what we've been discussing, so for the sake of argument I'm willing to leave out the jerks of the world. Hence, I suggested that God create only the people he wants in Heaven, and refrain from creating anyone destined for eternal torment. (See post #93.) If that means not creating any jerks, so be it.
    Your suggestion that ‘God create ONLY the people he wants in Heaven’ in this earth, and thus, do away with punishments would also mean that God should NOT have given man desires, emotions, and the ability to think and the ability to make a choice because it’s desires, emotions and the ability to think and make a choice that creates disagreements, and with disagreements came conflicts and with conflicts came dissatisfactions and revenges and with dissatisfactions and revenges came violence. What you are suggesting is that God creates a world of 'robots' – well, THAT certainly would rule out the need for punishments.

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say, here. But maybe this will help: I'm not claiming to understand everything about the God character. I only claim to have arrived at some basic, reasonable conclusions based on his alleged attributes.
    Sure, BUT how can you even claimed “to have arrived at some basic, reasonable conclusions based on his (ie. God) alleged attributes” when you don’t believe God even existed ??

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    I believe I understand, but if you revisit our past comments you will recall that I'm asking about the scenario where God onlycreates the people who are Heaven-bound. Your comments in post #74 express concern that the people being punished in the afterlife would be punished unjustly. Now, I think there are serious problems with this response even in its original context. But leaving that aside, it simply doesn't make any sense as an answer to my question here, since I'm asking about a scenario where there is no such punishment.
    Yes, I know what you are asking – you are asking why God even bother to create people who eventually will be jerks and criminals when He can just create all saints in this world, right ? Well, as I have said earlier in this posting, what you are asking is that God (assuming you believe in a God) creates a world of 'robots' with no desires, no emotions and no ability to think and make choices. Is that what you really want ?

  21. #100
    New Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    25
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    21 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    40

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Your suggestion that ‘God create ONLY the people he wants in Heaven’ in this earth, and thus, do away with punishments would also mean that God should NOT have given man desires, emotions, and the ability to think and the ability to make a choice because it’s desires, emotions and the ability to think and make a choice that creates disagreements, and with disagreements came conflicts and with conflicts came dissatisfactions and revenges and with dissatisfactions and revenges came violence.
    Wait a second. I thought you believe in Heaven, i.e. in a place where people have desires and emotions, but no disagreements or violent altercations. Isn't that possible?

  22. #101
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    438
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Quoted
    323 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    My apology for failing to notice this posting of yours and thus, the late response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    You're the chap saying a good and benevolent god came up with smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes and what not. So, what were the reasons? My own opinion is that biologists are probably right in saying that they are the results of evolutionary adaptations to survive by various biological entities.
    Yes, your opinion may be right that “biologists are probably right in saying that they are the results of evolutionary adaptations to survive by various biological entities.”. That, however, does NOT mean there’s no God but rather it means God is NOT the creator of “bad things” or that He “came up with smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes and what not”.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    In post 88, where you said: "“Bad” things in life happened, NOT by design (of God) but by man’s own design and doing. To put that into perspective, God created light, NOT darkness, BUT with the absence of light came darkness."

    Are you saying “bad things” like smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes and what not happened not by design (of God) but by man’s own design and doing? If that isn't what you mean, what do you mean?
    You mean post #77 ?

    When I said “but by man’s own design and doing”, I mean “but by man’s own design and doing” that are within his control. For example, surely man did not design or create the ‘yersinia pestis’ bacteria which causes the bubonic plague but man can prevent or lower the risk of the plague by ensuring, among other things, his home and surroundings is clean and free of rodents such as rats and mice. Now, if he did NOT take any precautions and his home and surroundings are infested with rodents’ droppings, and he eventually got infected with the plague, then his “misfortune” was actually caused by his own design and doing - THAT’s what I mean.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    I know what god is supposed to know. You know what god is supposed to know. The standard claim made by Christians and muslims is that god knows everything, literally, everything. Are you saying that isn't both what christians and muslims say? If you don't believe that yourself, what do you believe?
    You KNOW what God is supposed to know and yet you don’t believe in a God ?? Is that even possible ??

    Well, anyway, I know God knows everything BUT I don’t know what “everything” is supposed to encompass or what are the boundaries or limits of “everything”, which of course, only God knows. In that sense, yes, I believe God knows everything BUT I don’t know what God is supposed to know in ‘everything’, only God knows that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    ...but god knew and arranged that the student decides to throw his pen at the strike of 12 noon because god knows where the pen will land at a second past the strike of 12 noon.
    Well, we are back to where we started – God knew DOES NOT mean God make the choice or decision for you. Again, I don’t expect you to understand that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    ...so he can choose to do anything he wants to do, as long as it's what god already knows - and has decided - he's going to do.
    Let me rephrase that - ….so he can choose to do anything he wants to do, BUT whatever he eventually decided to do, God KNEW he will make THAT decision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    ...but it's a different kind of "gotta". Wayne was speaking of a moral obligation. In the case of god, "A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do", just as an object falling to earth in a vacuum has got to fall with an acceleration of thirty two feet per second. There is literally no alternative.
    Not really. Wayne’s “a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" may be from a moral obligation, BUT, it’s from his personal perspective of moral obligation, which may not be shared by everyone else. For example, he may feel justified to kill the man who raped and killed his daughter on his moral obligation of “A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" but that does mean everyone agreed with his “a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" action as some may say Wayne has no right to take the law into his own hands – that’s not the same as your example of God’s “a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do". An object falling to earth in a vacuum has got to fall because that object is subjected to one of the Physics Laws which God has established, in this case – the Law of Gravity – a Law which everyone have to agree and are subjected to – whether you believe in God or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    ...an allegedly greater cause. As you don't know what it is, how do you know it's greater or that it's somehow good?
    If I have said I knew what the reason or what the greater cause is to everything that had happened or will happen, then I am saying I am “All-Knowing” too like God, which I am not. So, yes, while I, like everyone, can speculate, I don’t know for sure the reason or the greater cause is. Only God knows.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    So, are you saying "a beneficent and omnipotent God" didn't "designedly creat... the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice". Is that because god wasn't all-knowing or because god had no choice or because someone or something else "designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice"?
    When I wrote ‘Now when did I ever claim “a beneficent and omnipotent God…designedly create…..…..a cat should play with mice”’, I mean where EXACTLY did I say in those EXACT words – or simply put, I am saying those are your words, NOT mine.

    And what’s wrong with "a beneficent and omnipotent God ...designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice" ? Surely, God designed man to eat, sleep, answer nature calls and what not, too. You see anything wrong with that too ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    You must have come across the reduction ad absurdum before - the logical inferences to be drawn from an argument to show what's wrong with the argument. in this case, I'm doing it with the claim that there is a beneficent and omnipotent God that knows everything.
    Sure, I understand that. What I am saying, however, is – if you came here to prove you are right (that there’s no God) by ‘proving’ the Muslims and the Christians are wrong for believing in a God, then, I am saying you will be making better sense IF you focus on why this or that happened in the absence of God, which is your belief, rather than why God allow this or that to happen. To make that clearer, it’s like if you are aiming for a promotion and an upgrade of your position in your office, you will have a greater chance by telling your boss about your achievements and the strengths you have rather than telling your boss why your other office colleagues do not deserve to get promoted. I don’t think your boss will be impressed by your character of running down your colleagues to get promoted. Likewise, I don’t think anyone are impressed (except the atheist members here) by you questioning the belief of those who believe in God when you are trying to prove that your belief of ‘there’s no God’ is the correct belief. You get what I am saying ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    It's for the falsity of the claim humans have free will, if there is an all-knowing all-powerful god.
    I can understand why you would think so, as you just cannot comprehend why humans still have free will of choice when there is an All-Knowing, All-Powerful God who knows everything. Again, I don’t expect you to understand that BUT the reality is, God did give humans the free will of choice and that’s why He created Heaven and Hell too.

  23. #102
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    438
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Quoted
    323 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    Wait a second. I thought you believe in Heaven, i.e. in a place where people have desires and emotions, but no disagreements or violent altercations. Isn't that possible?
    If I believe in God, obviously I believe in Heaven (and Hell) too.

    Is it possible to create a Heaven-like world in this life on earth with no disagreements or violent altercations ??

    Sure, why not, after all God is the All-Powerful Creator, but then again, God might as well, do not create earth at all and keep everyone in Heaven for eternity. Maybe, just maybe, that was the initial intention when God created Adam and Eve… until they fallen prey to Satan’s temptations and disobeyed God. Now, IF, and that’s a big ‘IF’, Adam and Eve had not fallen prey to Satan’s temptations, and thus, not sent down to earth, who knows, maybe, again just maybe, we all might still be in Heaven.

    Ahh, well, sometimes its nice to dream, BUT, unfortunately, we don’t live in dreams – we live in the reality and the reality is, we ARE on earth where bad and good things do happen, irrespective whether you believe in God or not.

  24. #103
    Odan
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Gender
    Girl Unspecified
    Posts
    2,165
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1415 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    22

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Yes, your opinion may be right that “biologists are probably right in saying that they are the results of evolutionary adaptations to survive by various biological entities.”. That, however, does NOT mean there’s no God but rather it means God is NOT the creator of “bad things” or that He “came up with smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes and what not”.
    ...except that if god is all-powerful and all-knowing he did. He knew what would happen and decided it would happen.



    You mean post #77 ?
    Whoops! (as god might say) Apologies.

    When I said “but by man’s own design and doing”, I mean “but by man’s own design and doing” that are within his control. For example, surely man did not design or create the ‘yersinia pestis’ bacteria which causes the bubonic plague but man can prevent or lower the risk of the plague by ensuring, among other things, his home and surroundings is clean and free of rodents such as rats and mice. Now, if he did NOT take any precautions and his home and surroundings are infested with rodents’ droppings, and he eventually got infected with the plague, then his “misfortune” was actually caused by his own design and doing - THAT’s what I mean.
    ...except that you are talking of a different kind of design and control: “bad things” like smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes like can be understood and alleviated after many years and a lot of work, but belief in an all-knowing all-powerful god requires that god put them there in the first place.



    You KNOW what God is supposed to know and yet you don’t believe in a God ?? Is that even possible ??
    Certainly. people who do believe in god have said what they believe god knows. I accept their claims for argument.
    Well, anyway, I know God knows everything BUT I don’t know what “everything” is supposed to encompass or what are the boundaries or limits of “everything”, which of course, only God knows. In that sense, yes, I believe God knows everything BUT I don’t know what God is supposed to know in ‘everything’, only God knows that.
    Either god everything - as in every thing or god doesn't know everything - which also limits god's all-powerfulness.



    Well, we are back to where we started – God knew DOES NOT mean God make the choice or decision for you. Again, I don’t expect you to understand that.
    ...or believe it. If you think god knew and arranged that the student decides to throw his pen at the strike of 12 noon and god knows where the pen will land at a second past the strike of 12 noon and the consequences of that, then god knows and intends the student will throw his pen at the strike of 12 noon.



    Let me rephrase that - ….so he can choose to do anything he wants to do, BUT whatever he eventually decided to do, God KNEW he will make THAT decision.
    It's still what god already knows - and has decided - he's going to do. Actions have consequences, and god knows what the consequences will be.



    Not really. Wayne’s “a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" may be from a moral obligation, BUT, it’s from his personal perspective of moral obligation, which may not be shared by everyone else. For example, he may feel justified to kill the man who raped and killed his daughter on his moral obligation of “A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" but that does mean everyone agreed with his “a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do" action as some may say Wayne has no right to take the law into his own hands – that’s not the same as your example of God’s “a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do". An object falling to earth in a vacuum has got to fall because that object is subjected to one of the Physics Laws which God has established, in this case – the Law of Gravity – a Law which everyone have to agree and are subjected to – whether you believe in God or not.
    ...and the same applies with John Wayne and his character. Wayne - the person - has no more free will than the character Wayne plays in a film if god knows what he's going to do. It's on exactly the same level as the laws of gravitation.



    If I have said I knew what the reason or what the greater cause is to everything that had happened or will happen, then I am saying I am “All-Knowing” too like God, which I am not. So, yes, while I, like everyone, can speculate, I don’t know for sure the reason or the greater cause is. Only God knows.
    ...which in turn resrs on your belief that there is a greater cause and that it's somehow good.


    When I wrote ‘Now when did I ever claim “a beneficent and omnipotent God…designedly create…..…..a cat should play with mice”’, I mean where EXACTLY did I say in those EXACT words – or simply put, I am saying those are your words, NOT mine.

    And what’s wrong with "a beneficent and omnipotent God ...designedly created the Ichneumonidae with the express intention of their feeding within the living bodies of Caterpillars, or that a cat should play with mice" ? Surely, God designed man to eat, sleep, answer nature calls and what not, too. You see anything wrong with that too ?
    Most human beings do, when it's a matter of the Ichneumonidae eating caterpillars alive over several months or cats playing with mice. God could have done otherwise - he's omnipotent, but not good - or he had no choice - he may be good but he's not omnipotent. There are no problems of free will with Ichneumonidae or cats. They do what god meant them to.



    Sure, I understand that. What I am saying, however, is – if you came here to prove you are right (that there’s no God) by ‘proving’ the Muslims and the Christians are wrong for believing in a God, then, I am saying you will be making better sense IF you focus on why this or that happened in the absence of God, which is your belief, rather than why God allow this or that to happen. To make that clearer, it’s like if you are aiming for a promotion and an upgrade of your position in your office, you will have a greater chance by telling your boss about your achievements and the strengths you have rather than telling your boss why your other office colleagues do not deserve to get promoted. I don’t think your boss will be impressed by your character of running down your colleagues to get promoted. Likewise, I don’t think anyone are impressed (except the atheist members here) by you questioning the belief of those who believe in God when you are trying to prove that your belief of ‘there’s no God’ is the correct belief. You get what I am saying ?
    I'm not trying to prove there is no god though. I don't think there is a god or gods and I especially don't think there is a god or gods with any interest in humans, but I don't know or care very much. I'm not very concerned with what belief in Christianity or islam makes people do to themselves. What does concern me is the fact that believers believe they have to force everybody else to behave "properly". I'd hope to persuade them that they shouldn't do that for reasons based on their religious beliefs.
    When you speak of what would "happen... in the absence of God" you're moving from arguments about the power and attributes of god to the power and effects of belief in god, which is a different matter.




    I can understand why you would think so, as you just cannot comprehend why humans still have free will of choice when there is an All-Knowing, All-Powerful God who knows everything. Again, I don’t expect you to understand that BUT the reality is, God did give humans the free will of choice and that’s why He created Heaven and Hell too.
    ...except that you don't seem to comprehend that either, but just believe it.

  25. #104
    New Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    25
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Quoted
    21 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    40

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    If I believe in God, obviously I believe in Heaven (and Hell) too.

    Is it possible to create a Heaven-like world in this life on earth with no disagreements or violent altercations ??

    Sure, why not, after all God is the All-Powerful Creator, but then again, God might as well, do not create earth at all and keep everyone in Heaven for eternity. Maybe, just maybe, that was the initial intention when God created Adam and Eve… until they fallen prey to Satan’s temptations and disobeyed God. Now, IF, and that’s a big ‘IF’, Adam and Eve had not fallen prey to Satan’s temptations, and thus, not sent down to earth, who knows, maybe, again just maybe, we all might still be in Heaven.

    Ahh, well, sometimes its nice to dream, BUT, unfortunately, we don’t live in dreams – we live in the reality and the reality is, we ARE on earth where bad and good things do happen, irrespective whether you believe in God or not.
    Well then something's not tracking here. In your previous comment you said that it's impossible for God to create people with desires and emotions (i.e., non-robots) but who do not get into violent disagreements. But then you believe that there is such a place---Heaven---where people are not robots, and yet live in harmony.

    I'm suggesting that God didn't need to create earth or Hell (Jahannam, if you prefer) in order to create Heaven. He didn't need to create the people destined for Hell at all, and he didn't need to put the Heaven-bound people through the wringer here on earth.

    This is a very special case of the evidential problem of evil. In my judgment, no theodicy has ever been successful in countering it. The only plausible defense to the EPE is called skeptical theism. However, skeptical theism has its own problems, and may be susceptible to a kind of pandora's box objection.

    Anyway, I leave you with all these links because I believe I'm going to bow out of our conversation for now. I enjoyed it, so thank you. Perhaps we'll discuss this topic again in another thread, at another time.

    Go ahead and have the last word.

  26. #105
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    438
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Quoted
    323 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    ...except that if god is all-powerful and all-knowing he did. He knew what would happen and decided it would happen.
    Again, God knowing what would happen does not mean God decided it would happen as God do not make choices or decisions on your behalf – you did that yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    ...except that you are talking of a different kind of design and control: “bad things” like smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes like can be understood and alleviated after many years and a lot of work, but belief in an all-knowing all-powerful god requires that god put them there in the first place.
    Not really. Man only understood and alleviated “bad things” like smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes AFTER they happened which mean God did not put them there in the first place. If God had put them there in the first place, they would have existed from the beginning of time and man do not have to wait for them ‘to happen’ to study and understand them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Certainly. people who do believe in god have said what they believe god knows. I accept their claims for argument.
    Sure. To each their own beliefs. I got no problems with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Either god everything - as in every thing or god doesn't know everything - which also limits god's all-powerfulness.
    No ‘either’ – as every thing in every realms of existence – things that already have been known and things that have yet to be known or will never be known by man.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    ...or believe it. If you think god knew and arranged that the student decides to throw his pen at the strike of 12 noon and god knows where the pen will land at a second past the strike of 12 noon and the consequences of that, then god knows and intends the student will throw his pen at the strike of 12 noon.
    Sure, again, I don’t expect you to understand that…or believe that - THAT an All-Knowing God does not necessarily have to make the choice in life for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    It's still what god already knows - and has decided - he's going to do. Actions have consequences, and god knows what the consequences will be.
    As I said – I don’t expect you to understand… or believe it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    ...and the same applies with John Wayne and his character. Wayne - the person - has no more free will than the character Wayne plays in a film if god knows what he's going to do. It's on exactly the same level as the laws of gravitation.
    Not really, as you are talking of 2 different ‘realities’. John Wayne, the person, in real life and John Wayne playing a character in a movie. Obviously, John Wayne the person has free will of choice as he can choose to play or not to play the character as required by the director’s scripts. John Wayne, the character in the movie, had to play out the character according to the scripts of the director. I understand what you are trying to highlight here BUT you really cannot make comparison of characterizations in a movie world with the characterizations in the real world. One is a make-believe world while the other is not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    ...which in turn resrs on your belief that there is a greater cause and that it's somehow good.
    Yes. You cannot deny that “bad things” do happen whether you believe in God or not. Believers accepted these “bad things” as fate as they believe there’s a reason for these things to happen, which may be for a greater cause. I don’t know how atheists deal with “bad things” – I am sure you don’t really blame God as you don’t believe in a God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Most human beings do, when it's a matter of the Ichneumonidae eating caterpillars alive over several months or cats playing with mice. God could have done otherwise - he's omnipotent, but not good - or he had no choice - he may be good but he's not omnipotent. There are no problems of free will with Ichneumonidae or cats. They do what god meant them to.
    I am not sure why anyone would find anything wrong with God’s Creations and Designs. I would think every living things was created and designed for a purpose, may it be for ‘check and balance’ or to maintain the ecosystems balance so that life can go on and on in this earth. Just imagine, generally speaking, if plants are not designed to ‘breathe out’ oxygen, man, who need oxygen, among other things, to live, will not survive long on this planet or if man are not designed to breathe out carbon dioxide, plants will not survive long to ‘give’ oxygen which are crucial for man’s survival. Thus, you can see the wisdom of God in His Creations and Designs.

    But then again, you don’t believe in these things and I don’t expect you to understand it…. or believe it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    I'm not trying to prove there is no god though. I don't think there is a god or gods and I especially don't think there is a god or gods with any interest in humans, but I don't know or care very much. I'm not very concerned with what belief in Christianity or islam makes people do to themselves.
    Fair enough. As I said – to each their own beliefs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    What does concern me is the fact that believers believe they have to force everybody else to behave "properly". I'd hope to persuade them that they shouldn't do that for reasons based on their religious beliefs.
    That is a perception rather than a reality. I cannot speak for Christianity nor would that be fair for the Christians, but Islam does not force anyone to behave properly. Islam, however, gave guidelines for you to live a balance life in this earth, which includes, proper behavior. As it is, we have laws which punish people who, we can say, do not behave properly as they committed crimes such as thefts, rapes, etc. Do you see these laws as forcing everybody to behave properly too ?? I hope not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    When you speak of what would "happen... in the absence of God" you're moving from arguments about the power and attributes of god to the power and effects of belief in god, which is a different matter.
    Not really. The power and effects of belief in God is a direct indication to the belief in the power and the attributes of God – it’s not a different matter but rather understood differently by atheists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    ...except that you don't seem to comprehend that either, but just believe it.
    Well, sorry to disappoint you BUT I do comprehend that perfectly and that's why I am a Muslim. If I don’t comprehend that, I would not have believe it and I would be an atheist like you today.

  27. #106
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    438
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Quoted
    323 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    Well then something's not tracking here. In your previous comment you said that it's impossible for God to create people with desires and emotions (i.e., non-robots) but who do not get into violent disagreements. But then you believe that there is such a place---Heaven---where people are not robots, and yet live in harmony.
    Help me here – where did I say “it's impossible for God to create people with desires and emotions (i.e., non-robots) but who do not get into violent disagreements” ??

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    I'm suggesting that God didn't need to create earth or Hell (Jahannam, if you prefer) in order to create Heaven. He didn't need to create the people destined for Hell at all, and he didn't need to put the Heaven-bound people through the wringer here on earth.
    I have responded to you on this in my previous post. Let me ‘cut and paste’ that response here –

    “Your suggestion that ‘God create ONLY the people he wants in Heaven’ in this earth, and thus, do away with punishments would also mean that God should NOT have given man desires, emotions, and the ability to think and the ability to make a choice because it’s desires, emotions and the ability to think and make a choice that creates disagreements, and with disagreements came conflicts and with conflicts came dissatisfactions and revenges and with dissatisfactions and revenges came violence. What you are suggesting is that God creates a world of 'robots' – well, THAT certainly would rule out the need for punishments.”

    Okay, so you added that “God didn't need to create earth or Hell (Jahannam, if you prefer) in order to create Heaven”. Fine, BUT then, why the need to create life at all ??

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    This is a very special case of the evidential problem of evil. In my judgment, no theodicy has ever been successful in countering it. The only plausible defense to the EPE is called skeptical theism. However, skeptical theism has its own problems, and may be susceptible to a kind of pandora's box objection.
    Thank you for the links. I wished you had summarized the key points of those links but I will find the time to read them.

    Anyway, assuming atheists are right that there’s no God, the reality is – problems of evil DO exist. So, in the absence of God, why do these problems of evil still persist when God is out of the equation ??

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsoff View Post
    Anyway, I leave you with all these links because I believe I'm going to bow out of our conversation for now. I enjoyed it, so thank you. Perhaps we'll discuss this topic again in another thread, at another time.

    Go ahead and have the last word.
    Well, hate to see you go but I do understand we do have other commitments in our life too.

    And its not about having the last word or about ‘winning or losing’ a dialog/debate, its about expressing your belief in a manner that people can understand. However, if they don’t, it really does not matter too.

    So, thank you too for finding time to engage in a friendly and respectful manner with me. Although I may not agree with you, it does help me to understand atheists better.

    Till then, do take care of yourself and your loved ones.

  28. #107
    Odan
    Join Date
    Jan 2015
    Gender
    Girl Unspecified
    Posts
    2,165
    Mentioned
    31 Post(s)
    Quoted
    1415 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    22

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Again, God knowing what would happen does not mean God decided it would happen as God do not make choices or decisions on your behalf – you did that yourself.
    God knows what will happen as a result of our choice, though, and knows that it will happen. God's knowledge exists before our choice. Who decided that would happen then?

    Not really. Man only understood and alleviated “bad things” like smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes AFTER they happened which mean God did not put them there in the first place. If God had put them there in the first place, they would have existed from the beginning of time and man do not have to wait for them ‘to happen’ to study and understand them.
    Eh? “Bad things” like smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes may not have existed from the beginning of time, but they were certainly there before humans.
    Sure. To each their own beliefs. I got no problems with that.
    ..except these are the beliefs and claims of nearly all Christians and muslims about god, so why ask: "You KNOW what God is supposed to know and yet you don’t believe in a God ?? Is that even possible ??" when I cite them?

    No ‘either’ – as every thing in every realms of existence – things that already have been known and things that have yet to be known or will never be known by man.
    So, does god know everything - including everything that is going to happen through the entire future - or does god not know everything? If god does know everything that is going to happen, how are humans free to do something else?

    Sure, again, I don’t expect you to understand that…or believe that - THAT an All-Knowing God does not necessarily have to make the choice in life for you.
    And, again, taking the example we were using: "If you think god knew and arranged that the student decides to throw his pen at the strike of 12 noon and god knows where the pen will land at a second past the strike of 12 noon and the consequences of that, then god knows and intends the student will throw his pen at the strike of 12 noon." As god already knows the student will throw the pen and what will happen afterwards, how can the student choose whether or not to throw the pen?

    Not really, as you are talking of 2 different ‘realities’. John Wayne, the person, in real life and John Wayne playing a character in a movie. Obviously, John Wayne the person has free will of choice as he can choose to play or not to play the character as required by the director’s scripts. John Wayne, the character in the movie, had to play out the character according to the scripts of the director. I understand what you are trying to highlight here BUT you really cannot make comparison of characterizations in a movie world with the characterizations in the real world. One is a make-believe world while the other is not.
    Except - again - if god knows everything, our behaviour in the real world is even more constricted than the make-believe world. God knows absolutely everything we do. The precise moment we wake, get up, stretch, go and shower... to the exact nanosecond. He knows even which molecules of spin will be sprayed from the skin when we shower. An actor in a play or a film has far more power over the characterisation of the character he plays.

    Yes. You cannot deny that “bad things” do happen whether you believe in God or not. Believers accepted these “bad things” as fate as they believe there’s a reason for these things to happen, which may be for a greater cause. I don’t know how atheists deal with “bad things” – I am sure you don’t really blame God as you don’t believe in a God.
    Do our best to alleviate them, but finally, "Men must endure their going hence even as their coming hither. Ripeness is all."



    I am not sure why anyone would find anything wrong with God’s Creations and Designs. I would think every living things was created and designed for a purpose, may it be for ‘check and balance’ or to maintain the ecosystems balance so that life can go on and on in this earth. Just imagine, generally speaking, if plants are not designed to ‘breathe out’ oxygen, man, who need oxygen, among other things, to live, will not survive long on this planet or if man are not designed to breathe out carbon dioxide, plants will not survive long to ‘give’ oxygen which are crucial for man’s survival. Thus, you can see the wisdom of God in His Creations and Designs.

    But then again, you don’t believe in these things and I don’t expect you to understand it…. or believe it.
    Except that these are singularly unpleasant Creations and Designs. No doubt ways of restricting the number of caterpillars are necessary, but it raises questions about god's tastes if the Creation and Design he uses is wasp larvae which eat caterpillars alive over several months. After all, god can choose otherwise. Do you understand or believe it or simply accept it? Do you begin with the assumptions that god is all-powerful, all-knowing and good and humans have free will and somehow everything must fit into it? If it doesn't look right, that fault is in our perception?

    Fair enough. As I said – to each their own beliefs.
    ...except that those beliefs often involve forcing others to behave "properly".

    That is a perception rather than a reality. I cannot speak for Christianity nor would that be fair for the Christians, but Islam does not force anyone to behave properly. Islam, however, gave guidelines for you to live a balance life in this earth, which includes, proper behavior. As it is, we have laws which punish people who, we can say, do not behave properly as they committed crimes such as thefts, rapes, etc. Do you see these laws as forcing everybody to behave properly too ?? I hope not.
    And what of the laws governing victimless crimes like homosexual activity, fornication, blasphemy, apostasy etc.?
    Not really. The power and effects of belief in God is a direct indication to the belief in the power and the attributes of God – it’s not a different matter but rather understood differently by atheists.
    Even if people believe in the wrong god or gods, who sent false messages?
    Well, sorry to disappoint you BUT I do comprehend that [God did give humans the free will of choice and that’s why He created Heaven and Hell too] perfectly and that's why I am a Muslim. If I don’t comprehend that, I would not have believe it and I would be an atheist like you today.
    Your comprehension seems to be so deep-rooted as to be inexpressible. This isn't a gibe, but you seem to believe that two apparently contradictory things are both so easily true that there's no need to discuss or examine them.

  29. #108
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Gender
    Boy Male
    Posts
    438
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Quoted
    323 Post(s)
    Rep Power
    14

    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    God knows what will happen as a result of our choice, though, and knows that it will happen. God's knowledge exists before our choice. Who decided that would happen then?
    Again - God knowing the eventual choice you will make does not mean He made the choice for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Eh? “Bad things” like smallpox, bubonic plague, bilharzia, liver flukes may not have existed from the beginning of time, but they were certainly there before humans.
    Sure, they could certainly be there before humans. However, that does not mean God place them there in the first place and THAT’s the point. If God had not put them there in the first place, it probably mean they are mutations from some complex processes, which are more by chance rather than by design, which scientists/biologists are beginning to understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    ..except these are the beliefs and claims of nearly all Christians and muslims about god, so why ask: "You KNOW what God is supposed to know and yet you don’t believe in a God ?? Is that even possible ??" when I cite them?
    I asked that question BECAUSE you don’t believe in a God and yet claimed you know what God is supposed to know. That’s like someone who claimed he don’t believe in ghosts and yet said he’s afraid of ghosts. Is that even possible like making any sense ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    So, does god know everything - including everything that is going to happen through the entire future - or does god not know everything? If god does know everything that is going to happen, how are humans free to do something else?
    BECAUSE humans have the freedom of choice.

    You are an atheist – was that your own choice or someone force it on you or you feel God has decided that for you ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    And, again, taking the example we were using: "If you think god knew and arranged that the student decides to throw his pen at the strike of 12 noon and god knows where the pen will land at a second past the strike of 12 noon and the consequences of that, then god knows and intends the student will throw his pen at the strike of 12 noon." As god already knows the student will throw the pen and what will happen afterwards, how can the student choose whether or not to throw the pen?
    I think you may be confused between outcomes as predestined by God and the outcomes as a result of the choices made by man. Take the ‘Titanic’ as example. Man have used every known technology available at that time to build a ship which according to them, is literally unsinkable, and yet, it sunk. THAT’s an example of a predestined outcome – that is, despite all ingenuity and every precaution taken, the ship still goes down into the icy sea. You being an atheist is a result of your own choice which you have made based on your understanding of how things tick. THAT’s an example of freedom of choice that God give humans.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Except - again - if god knows everything, our behaviour in the real world is even more constricted than the make-believe world. God knows absolutely everything we do. The precise moment we wake, get up, stretch, go and shower... to the exact nanosecond. He knows even which molecules of spin will be sprayed from the skin when we shower. An actor in a play or a film has far more power over the characterisation of the character he plays.
    Sure, but that does not change the fact that you do have freedom of choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Do our best to alleviate them, but finally, "Men must endure their going hence even as their coming hither. Ripeness is all."
    Absolutely, we can only “do our best” as to our own capability.

    That line from Shakespeare’s ‘King Lear’ you quoted simply means death is inevitable so, one must enjoy life and make the most of his life before he died. That, however, does not mean we should go on enjoying life like there’s no tomorrow, pretending that “bad things” never happen – because they do, whether you believe in God or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Except that these are singularly unpleasant Creations and Designs. No doubt ways of restricting the number of caterpillars are necessary, but it raises questions about god's tastes if the Creation and Design he uses is wasp larvae which eat caterpillars alive over several months. After all, god can choose otherwise. Do you understand or believe it or simply accept it? Do you begin with the assumptions that god is all-powerful, all-knowing and good and humans have free will and somehow everything must fit into it? If it doesn't look right, that fault is in our perception?
    Well, you don’t believe in the existence of a God. Parasitic wasp larvae eating caterpillars alive is a reality. In the absence of God, why is that happening ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    ...except that those beliefs often involve forcing others to behave "properly".
    As I said, do you see existing laws for crimes such as rape, murder, etc as FORCING people to behave ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    And what of the laws governing victimless crimes like homosexual activity, fornication, blasphemy, apostasy etc.?
    I would say they are more of a sin rather than a crime.

    And what make you believe ‘crimes’ like homosexual activity, fornication, blasphemy, apostasy etc. are victimless ? Take fornication for example, sure, those participating in such acts are between consenting adults, but what if one party was your wife or husband ?? Are you not a victim of your wife’s or husband’s infidelity ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Even if people believe in the wrong god or gods, who sent false messages?
    It’s NOT a case of people believing in the wrong God, BUT rather, it’s a case of people having different perceptions of the right God. Its like the story of the 6 blind men and an elephant. Its not that they are touching the ‘wrong’ elephant but each of the blind men, touching different parts of the elephant, gave a different perspective view of how an elephant looks like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Your comprehension seems to be so deep-rooted as to be inexpressible. This isn't a gibe, but you seem to believe that two apparently contradictory things are both so easily true that there's no need to discuss or examine them.
    Maybe so – my comprehension seems to be so deep-rooted as to be inexpressible to someone so incomprehensible that he/she became unreachable.

 

 

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
All times are GMT. The time now is 09:06 AM.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.2
Copyright © 2017 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging v3.2.7 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
vBulletin Skin By: PurevB.com

MPADC.com Islamic Web Hosting | Muslim Ad Network | Islamic Nasheeds | Islamic Mobile App Developement Android & iPhone | Islamic Web Hosting : Muslim Designers : Labbayk Nasheeds : silk route jilbab: Hijab: : Web Islamic Newsletter: Islamic Web Hosting

Students of Arabic Forum | Hijab Shop