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  1. #1
    Senior Member karkooshy's Avatar
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    "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Just had a pretty interesting discussion with a friend, and thought some of the points discussed could benefit everyone here for Dawah purposes.

    Anyway, on topic. This is a response to a very typical atheist argument, where the atheist attempts to argue for the non-existence of God by appealing to (what they perceive to be) unfairness that either exists, or would exist if God is assumed to exist. In short; "God doesn't exist, because if He did, He would not allow X to exist." Substitute X with any of the various reasons usually given: whether it be suffering in this life, harshness of various divine laws, or even the reality of a judgment after death.

    The response from the theist side, is usually an attempt to justify the X argued for. To show that X, is not necessarily contradictory with the belief in the existence of God. The conversation then usually proceeds to a discussion about whether this justification by the theist, for X is valid or not. However, I do not feel this a very efficient way to handle the atheist's initial objection.

    Rather, the theist should demand from the atheist to substantiate his premises. The burden is not on the theist to prove that X is justifiable, but the burden is on the atheist to prove that X is impossible to justify. The atheist's argument looks something like this:

    P1. God has no reason to allow X to exist
    P2. God is able to stop X from existing
    C1. If God exists, then X would not exist (from P1 and P2)
    P3. X exists
    C2. Therefore either God is unable to stop X from occurring (impossible given P2), or God doesn't exist at all (from C1 and P3).

    While the form of the argument might be valid (a simple two step modus tollens) the conclusion will follow, only if the premises are proven to be true. The theist typically attempts to argue against C1, but the more efficient way to handle this objection, is to ask objector to substantiate P1. That is, for the objector to explain to us why he thinks it's impossible for God to have a reason to allow X to exist. And since the atheist cannot possibly do this, the argument just falls apart on its own.

    Of course this counter-argument is not limited to a defense of Islam, but works for any similar objection one could raise against any faith. It is also not limited to answering atheists, as it's not unusual for non-atheists to raise the same argument against another faith.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    Just had a pretty interesting discussion with a friend, and thought some of the points discussed could benefit everyone here for Dawah purposes.

    Anyway, on topic. This is a response to a very typical atheist argument, where the atheist attempts to argue for the non-existence of God by appealing to (what they perceive to be) unfairness that either exists, or would exist if God is assumed to exist. In short; "God doesn't exist, because if He did, He would not allow X to exist." Substitute X with any of the various reasons usually given: whether it be suffering in this life, harshness of various divine laws, or even the reality of a judgment after death.

    The response from the theist side, is usually an attempt to justify the X argued for. To show that X, is not necessarily contradictory with the belief in the existence of God. The conversation then usually proceeds to a discussion about whether this justification by the theist, for X is valid or not. However, I do not feel this a very efficient way to handle the atheist's initial objection.

    Rather, the theist should demand from the atheist to substantiate his premises. The burden is not on the theist to prove that X is justifiable, but the burden is on the atheist to prove that X is impossible to justify. The atheist's argument looks something like this:

    P1. God has no reason to allow X to exist
    P2. God is able to stop X from existing
    C1. If God exists, then X would not exist (from P1 and P2)
    P3. X exists
    C2. Therefore either God is unable to stop X from occurring (impossible given P2), or God doesn't exist at all (from C1 and P3).

    While the form of the argument might be valid (a simple two step modus tollens) the conclusion will follow, only if the premises are proven to be true. The theist typically attempts to argue against C1, but the more efficient way to handle this objection, is to ask objector to substantiate P1. That is, for the objector to explain to us why he thinks it's impossible for God to have a reason to allow X to exist. And since the atheist cannot possibly do this, the argument just falls apart on its own.

    Of course this counter-argument is not limited to a defense of Islam, but works for any similar objection one could raise against any faith. It is also not limited to answering atheists, as it's not unusual for non-atheists to raise the same argument against another faith.
    I think you need to add in a third proposition to make this fair - ie P3. God is good.

    This would not be a problem for any religion. A god doesn't have to be good. But it is a problem for Islam and Christianity.

    When you introduce this third proposition, then your answer is not sufficient.

  3. #3
    Senior Member karkooshy's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    I think you need to add in a third proposition to make this fair - ie P3. God is good.

    This would not be a problem for any religion. A god doesn't have to be good. But it is a problem for Islam and Christianity.

    When you introduce this third proposition, then your answer is not sufficient.
    Not at all. Can't defend Christianity, but Muslims don't believe the devil is on equal bargaining terms with God- such that the devil is the creator of all evil, and God is the creator of all good. Muslims believe that God is the creator of everything, both good and evil. And we define "good" to mean acting in accordance with God's will, so God cannot not be good.

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    ░IGermaphobe 🍃 Qiyamah's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    Not at all. Can't defend Christianity, but Muslims don't believe the devil is on equal bargaining terms with God- such that the devil is the creator of all evil, and God is the creator of all good. Muslims believe that God is the creator of everything, both good and evil. And we define "good" to mean acting in accordance with God's will, so God cannot not be good.
    I have a problem with the statement in red you are saying it's impossible for God to be good but that just goes against Islamic doctrine afaik and is blasphemous as Allah says to speak good of Him and call Him by the best names.
    God is good because He does what's best for His creations, He's fair , just , merciful ,etc
    And God (Allah) is not subject to His laws.

    Why call Allah the greatest (Allahu Akbar) if you say God can't be good? You have to be good to be great no?
    I think you need to fix your statement whenever we speak or think of Allah it has to be good.
    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    I think you need to add in a third proposition to make this fair - ie P3. God is good.

    This would not be a problem for any religion. A god doesn't have to be good. But it is a problem for Islam and Christianity.

    When you introduce this third proposition, then your answer is not sufficient.
    Why do you have to include that third premise?
    Why does God have to be good in Islam or Christianity and why didn't you include Judaism (which relies relies on the Old Testament that Christians use)?
    Why can't it be like whatever God does is good so who are you to determine what is good or not?

    Atheists can't really judge what's good or not they don't believe in absolute morality.

    Anyways God being good or not is another argument and this argument brought forth is okay it can be structured better but I understand what he's trying to convey.
    Just because x exists doesn't mean God doesn't..it doesn't prove that God doesn't exist because of some evil occurrence or what not like how Atheists claim.
    Last edited by Qiyamah; 04-03-16 at 05:13 PM.
    “Do not commit injustice, because injustice is darkness on the Day of Judgment." (Sahih Muslim)
    They will say, "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we would not be among the companions of the Blazing Fire." Qur'an 67:10 💚💙💜

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    Senior Member karkooshy's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by Qiyamah View Post
    I have a problem with the statement in red you are saying it's impossible for God to be good but that just goes against Islamic doctrine afaik and is blasphemous as Allah says to speak good of Him and call Him by the best names.
    God is good because He does what's best for His creations, He's fair , just , merciful ,etc
    And God (Allah) is not subject to His laws.

    Read more carefully sister. I said God cannot not be good. Double negative.

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    ░IGermaphobe 🍃 Qiyamah's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    Read more carefully sister. I said God cannot not be good. Double negative.
    Sorry I misread and double negatives are confusing...

    That's great to hear but then I don't understand why you put the argument as forward :/
    And we define "good" to mean acting in accordance with God's will, so God cannot not be good.
    And i don't think that definition of good is comprehensive, it works for somethings but not all.
    And I don't get how that premise led to God cannot not be good...God isn't subject to His laws.
    He's free no one has authority over Him. Maybe you can word it better or use a better argument er I just find the definition of good to be a little problematic.

    But thanks for correcting me I was like shocked when I thought you said the opposite.
    ---
    Edit::
    I kinda get your argument now you just needed to word it better for me to understand
    It's good to follow God's commands so God is good since He ordered those commands.
    Last edited by Qiyamah; 04-03-16 at 05:29 PM.
    “Do not commit injustice, because injustice is darkness on the Day of Judgment." (Sahih Muslim)
    They will say, "Had we but listened or used our intelligence, we would not be among the companions of the Blazing Fire." Qur'an 67:10 💚💙💜

  7. #7
    Senior Member karkooshy's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by Qiyamah View Post
    And i don't think that definition of good is comprehensive, it works for somethings but not all.
    And I don't get how that premise led to God cannot not be good either...God isn't subject to His laws.
    He's free no one has authority over Him. Maybe you can word it better or use a better argument er I just find the definition of good to be a little problematic.
    God by definition, always acts according to His own will (since it's His own will). So it's impossible for Him to not be good, if good is defined as acting in according to the Will of God.

    God can Will for his creation to do something that He himself is not bound by. For example, God can end the life of an innocent, but humans (His creation) are not permitted to do this. Both cases (God's authority to end the life an innocent, and forbidding humans to do the same) are in accordance with God's will, so there is no contradiction. In this sense, the definition given above is comprehensive in my opinion.

    In short, just because you give out an order to someone, doesn't mean you yourself are necessarily bound to do the same. For example, a mother can tell her son that he's not allowed to wear gold (since gold is forbidden for males), but that does not mean she is bound by the same rules.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    Not at all. Can't defend Christianity, but Muslims don't believe the devil is on equal bargaining terms with God- such that the devil is the creator of all evil, and God is the creator of all good. Muslims believe that God is the creator of everything, both good and evil.
    You appear to be saying that Allah created evil?

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    Abu Musa Theistic's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    Just had a pretty interesting discussion with a friend, and thought some of the points discussed could benefit everyone here for Dawah purposes.

    Anyway, on topic. This is a response to a very typical atheist argument, where the atheist attempts to argue for the non-existence of God by appealing to (what they perceive to be) unfairness that either exists, or would exist if God is assumed to exist. In short; "God doesn't exist, because if He did, He would not allow X to exist." Substitute X with any of the various reasons usually given: whether it be suffering in this life, harshness of various divine laws, or even the reality of a judgment after death.

    The response from the theist side, is usually an attempt to justify the X argued for. To show that X, is not necessarily contradictory with the belief in the existence of God. The conversation then usually proceeds to a discussion about whether this justification by the theist, for X is valid or not. However, I do not feel this a very efficient way to handle the atheist's initial objection.

    Rather, the theist should demand from the atheist to substantiate his premises. The burden is not on the theist to prove that X is justifiable, but the burden is on the atheist to prove that X is impossible to justify. The atheist's argument looks something like this:

    P1. God has no reason to allow X to exist
    P2. God is able to stop X from existing
    C1. If God exists, then X would not exist (from P1 and P2)
    P3. X exists
    C2. Therefore either God is unable to stop X from occurring (impossible given P2), or God doesn't exist at all (from C1 and P3).

    While the form of the argument might be valid (a simple two step modus tollens) the conclusion will follow, only if the premises are proven to be true. The theist typically attempts to argue against C1, but the more efficient way to handle this objection, is to ask objector to substantiate P1. That is, for the objector to explain to us why he thinks it's impossible for God to have a reason to allow X to exist. And since the atheist cannot possibly do this, the argument just falls apart on its own.

    Of course this counter-argument is not limited to a defense of Islam, but works for any similar objection one could raise against any faith. It is also not limited to answering atheists, as it's not unusual for non-atheists to raise the same argument against another faith.
    i am not sure my example will be helpful or not... but i heard it somewhere so i am sharing & hoping if it might help....

    if we take example of Light & Darkness then science defines light is a form of energy & has proof of its existence but what is darkness? it is just the absence of light... darkness itself is nothing, if there is no light we say it is darkness... similarly, we can say that Allah (God) has created only good things (justice, love, peace etc) and absence of these good things means injustice, hate, violence etc..... God didn't create anything bad, God created everything fair, absence of that fairness leads to unfairness.

  10. #10
    Odan
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    Read more carefully sister. I said God cannot not be good. Double negative.
    It's better not to use double negatives because apart from creating confusion double negatives are sometimes used to emphasize the negation(not in your case though.)

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    Senior Member karkooshy's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by Theistic View Post
    God didn't create anything bad, God created everything fair, absence of that fairness leads to unfairness.
    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    You appear to be saying that Allah created evil?
    Just to answer both quotations: Yes, we believe Allah ﷻ is Creator of everything, good and evil. And this is documented in the Quran (and in some of the most widely memorized surahs too). One of the several examples that can be cited:

    قُلْ أَعُوذُ بِرَبِّ ٱلْفَلَقِ * مِن شَرِّ مَا خَلَقَ

    Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak. From the evil of that which He created. (Quran 113: 1-2)

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    abu sab'a
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    You appear to be saying that Allah created evil?
    Allah swt did

    Allah swt created everything

    Then Allah swt said do X and there will be good do Y and there will be oppression and bad things

    So you do bad things and then say ''why? does Allah swt allow this?''

    Allah swt told you that you bring evil onto yourself with your own hands

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    Just to answer both quotations: Yes, we believe Allah ﷻ is Creator of everything, good and evil. And this is documented in the Quran (and in some of the most widely memorized surahs too). One of the several examples that can be cited:

    قُلْ أَعُوذُ بِرَبِّ ٱلْفَلَقِ * مِن شَرِّ مَا خَلَقَ

    Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak. From the evil of that which He created. (Quran 113: 1-2)
    in which case, you can indeed contradict the atheist argument you mentioned - but not for the reason you think. When an atheist asks that question, he is posing the problem of evil ie if God is good, why is there evil in the world? But you accept that Allah created evil so for Islam, that's not the issue.

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    Senior Member karkooshy's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    in which case, you can indeed contradict the atheist argument you mentioned - but not for the reason you think. When an atheist asks that question, he is posing the problem of evil ie if God is good, why is there evil in the world? But you accept that Allah created evil so for Islam, that's not the issue.
    I don't feel comfortable defending other faiths, so we can leave it at that. But if you reflect on the opening post more carefully, I think you'll find that even for the theist who believes God did not create evil, that this "problem of evil" is still a weak argument.

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    Kaffir SILURES's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by nonameakhi View Post
    Allah swt did

    Allah swt created everything

    Then Allah swt said do X and there will be good do Y and there will be oppression and bad things

    So you do bad things and then say ''why? does Allah swt allow this?''

    Allah swt told you that you bring evil onto yourself with your own hands
    what about things like famine, disease, cancer? caused generally through nobodys actions or fault yet still kills innocent people?

    There are two kinds of pride, both good and bad. 'Good pride' represents our dignity and self-respect. 'Bad pride' is the deadly sin of superiority that reeks of conceit and arrogance.



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    abu sab'a
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    what about things like famine, disease, cancer? caused generally through nobodys actions or fault yet still kills innocent people?
    Islamically this is also explained silures, I will give you the simple version in my words. Not because of you but my aversion to typing long explanations

    Islamically it is written ad explained that as oppression increases so will disease and what we call natural disasters.

    Even the pollution of the skies and waters will be a result of oppression, oppression here is islamic meaning not Oxford dictionary

    The issue of innocents is a little more complex to explain in words on computer but take the dying of the kids in Africa, it is caused by somebodies actions/oppression and will be seen as murder

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by nonameakhi View Post
    Allah swt did

    Allah swt created everything

    Then Allah swt said do X and there will be good do Y and there will be oppression and bad things

    So you do bad things and then say ''why? does Allah swt allow this?''

    Allah swt told you that you bring evil onto yourself with your own hands
    I find this a little confusing. Why would Allah make evil?

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    God by definition, always acts according to His own will (since it's His own will). So it's impossible for Him to not be good, if good is defined as acting in according to the Will of God.
    .
    I disagree with this. You can argue that a God always does good - but not that whatever a God does, is good. The two things are not synonymous.

    Human sacrifice is not good, whoever asks for it.

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    Kaffir SILURES's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by nonameakhi View Post
    Islamically this is also explained silures, I will give you the simple version in my words. Not because of you but my aversion to typing long explanations

    Islamically it is written ad explained that as oppression increases so will disease and what we call natural disasters.

    Even the pollution of the skies and waters will be a result of oppression, oppression here is islamic meaning not Oxford dictionary

    The issue of innocents is a little more complex to explain in words on computer but take the dying of the kids in Africa, it is caused by somebodies actions/oppression and will be seen as murder
    simple is good. just pretend im not very bright and explain it slowly

    so what is oppression islamicaly? and why does it in the case of a flood or famine for instance hurt the most vulnerable people in that area, the poor for instance?

    also why punish them if its due to someone elses actions? why doesnt god punish them alone?

    There are two kinds of pride, both good and bad. 'Good pride' represents our dignity and self-respect. 'Bad pride' is the deadly sin of superiority that reeks of conceit and arrogance.



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    abu sab'a
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    simple is good. just pretend im not very bright and explain it slowly

    so what is oppression islamicaly? and why does it in the case of a flood or famine for instance hurt the most vulnerable people in that area, the poor for instance?

    also why punish them if its due to someone elses actions? why doesnt god punish them alone?
    Oppression in Islam encompasses a lot, from a father who wont marry his daughter to a pious suitor due to racism to implementing other than shariah to interest to not giving in charity etc

    there is quranic verses and hadith to suggest there will befall calamity after calamity when oppression is widespread and the notion of ''innocent'' is wider than people being seen as good. SO when we have the story of the order to destroy a town but the angel of death said there are pious people there who are in 24 hour worship the order was to start with them as they had simply isolated themselves and were not teaching or preaching

    I guess the notion of innocence has to be defined too islamically and also teh notion that someone killed is hard done by. To be shaheed is to be placed in the higher portions of heaven/jannah and so drowning for example is a form of martyrdom/shaheed too

    Its also a mindset and understanding. A person dying may seem like a waste of life to you and me but they may be targetted to be kept ''safe''

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    Senior Member wayseer's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Assalum alaikum

    If one is to rely on Western rationalism to argue for the existence, or otherwise, of God, then one will bound to be disappointed. There is a lengthy and illustrative history of such attempts which have not obviously arrived at any definitive conclusion .. otherwise we would not be having this discussion.

    We are simply on board the wrong vessel. We are using the mind. What we should be using is the heart. When we transfer the question to the heart we might find a different response. The problem is, of course, that most of us are taught that the heart cannot think .. think again. The heart very much has a brain of its own. For those who doubt such claim I might suggest a search of the relative material that exists of the web.

    The other problem is that most of us feed our heart with the same junk diet as we feed our brain. Garbage in garbage out as they say. So that means turning off the TV and focusing on those things which have been given to us to edify our lives.

    What does all this mean? It means we cannot win any faux philosophical argument however hard we try. So don't even begin. Second, it means we live our life following the Prophet (swt) only then will others see that we have something that goes beyond argument and conjecture.

    So, don't get sucked into the world, concentrate on the important stuff. Atheists will come and go .. that is a matter for Allah not necessarily us.
    Free-will if good for him who is master of himself (Rumi)

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    Abu Musa Theistic's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    Just to answer both quotations: Yes, we believe Allah ﷻ is Creator of everything, good and evil. And this is documented in the Quran (and in some of the most widely memorized surahs too). One of the several examples that can be cited:

    قُلْ أَعُوذُ بِرَبِّ ٱلْفَلَقِ * مِن شَرِّ مَا خَلَقَ

    Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of daybreak. From the evil of that which He created. (Quran 113: 1-2)
    your answer is correct for a theist only, if an athiest accepts this answer then he/she is no more an athiest because he/she is believing what Quran says i.e. accepting words of God.
    my example is meant for atheist person in specific.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    in which case, you can indeed contradict the atheist argument you mentioned - but not for the reason you think. When an atheist asks that question, he is posing the problem of evil ie if God is good, why is there evil in the world? But you accept that Allah created evil so for Islam, that's not the issue.
    The verse that Karkooshy quoted says: "From the evil of that which He has created".

    There is a difference between saying God has created evil and saying that what God has created contains evil.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    I find this a little confusing. Why would Allah make evil?
    It's not hard to understand. God is Absolute Good. It follows that only God is absolutely Good, since it is impossible to have two absolutes. The world is not God. So it is not absolutely good, and it contains evils.

    Creation implies a separation from the Creator. The Creator is absolutely Good. Separation/distance from the absolute Good implies the lack of good, which we call evil.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    simple is good. just pretend im not very bright and explain it slowly

    so what is oppression islamicaly? and why does it in the case of a flood or famine for instance hurt the most vulnerable people in that area, the poor for instance?

    also why punish them if its due to someone elses actions? why doesnt god punish them alone?
    Floods and earthquakes are sometimes very advantageous for the environment; and it is a very great blessing that people die. Think how uglier this planet would be if all of the people that have lived throughout history were still alive.

    Calamities (poverty, famine, etc) are also good because they remind us of the reality of death and the fact that life on this earth is impermanent. What is really evil is forgetting God.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    I find this a little confusing. Why would Allah make evil?
    I find it a little disappointing that you’d raise this objection in the first place, when the whole purpose of this post was to highlight how meaningless it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    I disagree with this. You can argue that a God always does good - but not that whatever a God does, is good. The two things are not synonymous.

    Human sacrifice is not good, whoever asks for it.
    I’m not sure how I’m supposed to respond to this. You tell me you disagree, but you don’t explain why. I realize that “God always does good” is not synonymous with “whatever God does, is good”, but given the definition for “good” given above, I don’t see how I cannot argue for the latter?

    Quote Originally Posted by wayseer View Post
    Assalum alaikum

    If one is to rely on Western rationalism to argue for the existence, or otherwise, of God, then one will bound to be disappointed. There is a lengthy and illustrative history of such attempts which have not obviously arrived at any definitive conclusion .. otherwise we would not be having this discussion.

    We are simply on board the wrong vessel. We are using the mind. What we should be using is the heart. When we transfer the question to the heart we might find a different response. The problem is, of course, that most of us are taught that the heart cannot think .. think again. The heart very much has a brain of its own. For those who doubt such claim I might suggest a search of the relative material that exists of the web.

    The other problem is that most of us feed our heart with the same junk diet as we feed our brain. Garbage in garbage out as they say. So that means turning off the TV and focusing on those things which have been given to us to edify our lives.

    What does all this mean? It means we cannot win any faux philosophical argument however hard we try. So don't even begin. Second, it means we live our life following the Prophet (swt) only then will others see that we have something that goes beyond argument and conjecture.

    So, don't get sucked into the world, concentrate on the important stuff. Atheists will come and go .. that is a matter for Allah not necessarily us.
    و عليكم السلام
    I think there’s been a slight misunderstanding. This is not an argument to prove the existence of God, it doesn’t argue for this at all. It’s a counter-argument to a common atheist objection.

    Although I still do not agree with you when you imply there is no rational basis for belief in God. I certainly do not believe such an approach is in line with the Quranic injunction for us to think, reason, and argue for our case in the best manner. I also disagree that historically, Muslims have failed to arrive at definitive conclusions in providing a rational basis for our beliefs. In fact nearly all of the objections raised today, can be easily answered by referring back to arguments utilized by classical thinkers and scholars.

    With that said, I agree with you that you do not necessarily need to have a rational basis for your beliefs in order to maintain them. Though in that case, one must realize that a discussion about their beliefs cannot happen, since it would essentially boil down to a conversation about unverifiable, subjective experiences.

    Quote Originally Posted by Theistic View Post
    your answer is correct for a theist only, if an athiest accepts this answer then he/she is no more an athiest because he/she is believing what Quran says i.e. accepting words of God.
    my example is meant for atheist person in specific.
    I can appreciate that. Although to clarify, the atheist who raises the objection I’ve attempted to answer is employing what is known as a Proof by Contradiction. This is where a claimant assumes that what he’s trying to prove is false, while showing that such an assumption results in a contradiction, concluding that it is more reasonable to believe that the proposition is true.

    In the case of the atheist, they want to prove that the proposition “God does not exist” is true. So they assume it to be false (i.e. “God does exist”) in order to show that this leads to a contradiction (e.g. “How can God exist if suffering also exists?”). So the atheist utilizing such a proof method is already presuming God exists.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post

    I can appreciate that. Although to clarify, the atheist who raises the objection I’ve attempted to answer is employing what is known as a Proof by Contradiction. This is where a claimant assumes that what he’s trying to prove is false, while showing that such an assumption results in a contradiction, concluding that it is more reasonable to believe that the proposition is true.

    In the case of the atheist, they want to prove that the proposition “God does not exist” is true. So they assume it to be false (i.e. “God does exist”) in order to show that this leads to a contradiction (e.g. “How can God exist if suffering also exists?”). So the atheist utilizing such a proof method is already presuming God exists.
    we know that any proposition may be right or wrong, proving one proposition over another doesn't change the fact. Knowing & believing the fact is another thing & winning the arguement another thing.

    so, for an athiest you need to prove the importance of realizing the fact, which i tried to explain in example of light & darkness...

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    I find from what I read.. That they are more or less, assuming God's will. We do not know God's will.

    It is as if they try to say "How can God do x? What possible reason could God have for y to happen?" Ie. Problem is, God does not have to conform to our understanding, or our want.

    It is simple. God created evil, willed evil to exist, and decreed it to exist. But the evils that happen on earth, is the consequences of mankind's actions, to which mankind will be responsible for.

    Why did God want it to exist? God does as He wills. Without Darkness, Light would be meaningless, or at least we couldn't understand it, and complain anyway.

    Without bad deeds, there would be no test,and thus complain. Without good deeds, we would complain. If God was to put us in Jannah, all of us, we'd question 'why?' cause we wouldn't know what 'bad' feels like, and thus wouldn't recognize 'good'. Similarily, if God was to put all of us in Hell, we'd say "why?"

    Bad and good compliments eachother. Without either, you can not distinguish between good and bad.

    It is like saying "Why did God create me?" God does what He wants, we are in no position to question why He SWT does things.

    This stems from emotions and not reasons. There are plenty logical arguments, such as "For something to have been put into existence, must have a cause"

    Everything that has a beginning, has a cause.

    IF you were to ask me "Who made this glass" and I said "none" your brain would think "Nonsense, it must have come from someone!" and thus deny that answer.

    It is simple, anything that has come to existence, must have had a cause to its beginning.
    Last edited by Serinity; 05-03-16 at 01:14 PM.
    La ilaha illallahu, wahdahu la sharika lahu, lahul-mulku wa lahul-hamdu, wa Huwa 'ala kulli sha'in Qadir
    (there is no true god except Allah. He is One and He has no partner with Him; His is the sovereignty and His is the praise, and He is Omnipotent),'
    Do not say about Allah but Truth.


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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by wayseer View Post
    Assalum alaikum

    If one is to rely on Western rationalism to argue for the existence, or otherwise, of God, then one will bound to be disappointed. There is a lengthy and illustrative history of such attempts which have not obviously arrived at any definitive conclusion .. otherwise we would not be having this discussion.

    We are simply on board the wrong vessel. We are using the mind. What we should be using is the heart. When we transfer the question to the heart we might find a different response. The problem is, of course, that most of us are taught that the heart cannot think .. think again. The heart very much has a brain of its own. For those who doubt such claim I might suggest a search of the relative material that exists of the web.

    The other problem is that most of us feed our heart with the same junk diet as we feed our brain. Garbage in garbage out as they say. So that means turning off the TV and focusing on those things which have been given to us to edify our lives.

    What does all this mean? It means we cannot win any faux philosophical argument however hard we try. So don't even begin. Second, it means we live our life following the Prophet (swt) only then will others see that we have something that goes beyond argument and conjecture.

    So, don't get sucked into the world, concentrate on the important stuff. Atheists will come and go .. that is a matter for Allah not necessarily us.
    This.

    There are things, by which, if I was to question with my brain I would not understand, but if I let my heart understand, I would understand.
    La ilaha illallahu, wahdahu la sharika lahu, lahul-mulku wa lahul-hamdu, wa Huwa 'ala kulli sha'in Qadir
    (there is no true god except Allah. He is One and He has no partner with Him; His is the sovereignty and His is the praise, and He is Omnipotent),'
    Do not say about Allah but Truth.


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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    I’m not sure how I’m supposed to respond to this. You tell me you disagree, but you don’t explain why. I realize that “God always does good” is not synonymous with “whatever God does, is good”, but given the definition for “good” given above, I don’t see how I cannot argue for the latter?
    .
    To say that the definition of good is 'whatever God does' is dangerous. You are opening up the door to immorality.

    Why? Because you are giving permission to people to do bad things in the name of God. They might say, it's ok to wipe out this society, because we think they are devil worshipers and God says we ought to destroy this kind of people.

    You're teaching them to override their natural morality. You're redefining good - and not in a 'good' way.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by Serinity View Post
    I find from what I read.. That they are more or less, assuming God's will. We do not know God's will.
    This is essentially it. Their entire argument depends on the assumption that God has no good reason to allow X to occur. However, they cannot possibly demonstrate that such an assumption is true, so the entire argument is meaningless.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    To say that the definition of good is 'whatever God does' is dangerous. You are opening up the door to immorality.

    Why? Because you are giving permission to people to do bad things in the name of God. They might say, it's ok to wipe out this society, because we think they are devil worshipers and God says we ought to destroy this kind of people.

    You're teaching them to override their natural morality. You're redefining good - and not in a 'good' way.
    You have yet to provide an alternative objective definition for the term "good" yourself.

    Moreover dangerous ≠ false. How dangerous a concept or idea is, is irrelevant to whether it is true or not. How dangerous an idea is, is only relevant when you've already accepted the idea to be false to begin with, so you basically tell yourself "let everyone else believe this idea, as long as they're not harming anyone else I don't care".

    Fortunately as theists, we have an objective, theological, and ethical framework to categorically condemn the immoral. Something non-theists lack. We do not treat other religions as subjectively valid alternatives to the divine, and only then is this an issue at all. We categorically reject all other faiths as incorrect. So no, I'm not giving everyone the license to do whatever they want in the name of whatever god they believe in, since I only believe in One God. This license only exists, as far as I'm concerned, with regards to what this One God, commands mankind to do.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    You have yet to provide an alternative objective definition for the term "good" yourself.

    Moreover dangerous ≠ false. How dangerous a concept or idea is, is irrelevant to whether it is true or not. How dangerous an idea is, is only relevant when you've already accepted the idea to be false to begin with, so you basically tell yourself "let everyone else believe this idea, as long as they're not harming anyone else I don't care".

    Fortunately as theists, we have an objective, theological, and ethical framework to categorically condemn the immoral. Something non-theists lack. We do not treat other religions as subjectively valid alternatives to the divine, and only then is this an issue at all. We categorically reject all other faiths as incorrect. So no, I'm not giving everyone the license to do whatever they want in the name of whatever god they believe in, since I only believe in One God. This license only exists, as far as I'm concerned, with regards to what this One God, commands mankind to do.
    So long as you say that the definition of good is 'what God does', then you leave it open for people to do anything they want and say 'this is what God wants'.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    This is essentially it. Their entire argument depends on the assumption that God has no good reason to allow X to occur. However, they cannot possibly demonstrate that such an assumption is true, so the entire argument is meaningless.
    Sounds quite arrogant and presumptuous.

    I mean, so what? Allah willed it, Allah created. Do we know why Allah did it? Yes, in the Quran. But without the Quran we wouldn't know, so we search. Allah knows best. Why question Allah? It is pointless.

    It is like saying "Why did Allah create this and that" duhh. Cuz He wanted to. One of Allah's attributes are All-knowing and all-wise, so we can deduce that NOTHING Allah does is in vain.

    It is like saying "Why did Allah create Hitler?" etc.. You are essentialy and implying you know better than Allah. May Allah protect us. Ameen.

    Nothing wrong with questioning, but I do have a problem with people assuming God's will.
    Last edited by Serinity; 05-03-16 at 06:42 PM.
    La ilaha illallahu, wahdahu la sharika lahu, lahul-mulku wa lahul-hamdu, wa Huwa 'ala kulli sha'in Qadir
    (there is no true god except Allah. He is One and He has no partner with Him; His is the sovereignty and His is the praise, and He is Omnipotent),'
    Do not say about Allah but Truth.


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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    So long as you say that the definition of good is 'what God does', then you leave it open for people to do anything they want and say 'this is what God wants'.
    This is a completely emotional argument. Given the conditions provided in the post you quoted... so what? If those people really are doing what God wants, then they have my full support.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    This is a completely emotional argument. Given the conditions provided in the post you quoted... so what? If those people really are doing what God wants, then they have my full support.
    But are they actually doing God's will? They say they are. But others say different.

    There isn't even agreement within islam, let alone elsewhere.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    But are they actually doing God's will? They say they are. But others say different.

    There isn't even agreement within islam, let alone elsewhere.
    How we can know whether what one does is in accordance with God’s commands, is a secondary discussion that’s not relevant to the topic at hand. I’d rather you be an ignorant, deviant Muslim, than remain in your disbelief. And I didn’t say whoever claims to be doing as God commanded him, can go on to do whatever they want.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    How we can know whether what one does is in accordance with God’s commands, is a secondary discussion that’s not relevant to the topic at hand.
    No it's not. Because it's too easy to claim that what you're doing is 'God's command' and then do exactly what you wanted to do in the first place.

    There are some crimes that you should know are always wrong and you don't need a set of scriptures to tell you.

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    Senior Member karkooshy's Avatar
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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by ExNihilo View Post
    No it's not. Because it's too easy to claim that what you're doing is 'God's command' and then do exactly what you wanted to do in the first place.

    There are some crimes that you should know are always wrong and you don't need a set of scriptures to tell you.
    It is irrelevant, because it’s an entirely internal discussion amongst theists (and for disagreements between Muslims, an internal discussion between Muslims) that should be of no concern to an atheist. The more serious matter for the non-theist, is that he cannot claim something is objectively good or bad in the moral sense, because the natural world (and science as a discipline) is amoral. Sure, you may feel certain practices are morally abhorrent, but at the end of the day (as far as your worldview is concerned) that’s just your opinion, and someone who holds a different opinion, should not be treated as one who is any more, or less correct than you are.

    You're essentially trying to shift the discussion from one about moral ontology, to one about moral epistemology. We're discussing the origins of moral values, and specifically if the "problem of evil' is a valid concern. We're not discussion how we can arrive at specific conclusions based on a given ontological framework. If we can agree on that moral ontological framework (that being good means acting in accordance to the commands of God) then you're not justified in your atheism to begin with. You would be however, justified in being a non-muslim theist, in which case we can have a second discussion about the hows, i.e. whether or not a non-muslim theist is justified in claiming that their ethics come from the divine, and vice versa.

    As a second important point, the existence of disagreements within a particular field, does not mean the whole field should be done away with. It is your job to investigate each claim and then judge for yourself which makes more sense to you. The mere fact that different religious beliefs claim to have received their ethics from the divine, is not sufficient to prove that all of them are wrong.

    And like I already told you before, I didn't say whoever claims to be doing as God commanded him, can go on to do whatever they want.

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    Re: "God doesn't exist, because otherwise He wouldn't allow X to exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by karkooshy View Post
    It is irrelevant, because it’s an entirely internal discussion amongst theists (and for disagreements between Muslims, an internal discussion between Muslims) that should be of no concern to an atheist. The more serious matter for the non-theist, is that he cannot claim something is objectively good or bad in the moral sense, because the natural world (and science as a discipline) is amoral. Sure, you may feel certain practices are morally abhorrent, but at the end of the day (as far as your worldview is concerned) that’s just your opinion, and someone who holds a different opinion, should not be treated as one who is any more, or less correct than you are.

    You're essentially trying to shift the discussion from one about moral ontology, to one about moral epistemology. We're discussing the origins of moral values, and specifically if the "problem of evil' is a valid concern. We're not discussion how we can arrive at specific conclusions based on a given ontological framework. If we can agree on that moral ontological framework (that being good means acting in accordance to the commands of God) then you're not justified in your atheism to begin with. You would be however, justified in being a non-muslim theist, in which case we can have a second discussion about the hows, i.e. whether or not a non-muslim theist is justified in claiming that their ethics come from the divine, and vice versa.

    As a second important point, the existence of disagreements within a particular field, does not mean the whole field should be done away with. It is your job to investigate each claim and then judge for yourself which makes more sense to you. The mere fact that different religious beliefs claim to have received their ethics from the divine, is not sufficient to prove that all of them are wrong.

    And like I already told you before, I didn't say whoever claims to be doing as God commanded him, can go on to do whatever they want.
    Is morality objective? I don't know, but we can say that there are certain rules that every society follows. For instance, all societies have prohibitions on murder and incest. But only one tells you not to play music.

    There is also something that looks like morality in nature. All other species also avoid incest, and most avoid murder of their own species (except those that are not social creatures in the first place). Is that genetic? Is it instinct? Is is morality? Is it different from human morality? I don't know. But what it does tell you is that creatures can organise themselves socially to at least some degree without the need for a religion.

    In that limited sense, morality does have an objective existence.

    The problem with saying that whatever God does is good, is that you are opening the door for God (or God's followers) to do 'bad' things (eg genocide) and justify it by a certain reading of scripture. You are removing the ability of people to recognise something is wrong, without the need of a scripture to tell me.

    If I see a glossy video of a man being tortured and burned to death, I know it's wrong. I don't need to check on a scripture to see if I'm right.

 

 

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