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  1. #1
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    Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    as misquoted often by the APOLOGETICS, (Cheaters) since they hide the very next verse 9:6 which tells the Muslims to escort them to safety , http://quran.com/9/5-6

    Noble Quran 9:6 ''And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection,so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.''

    note : This is what Salahudeen Ayubi (Rahimahullah) did while taking back Jerusalem. His soldiers escorted all those who wanted leave to their places of safety, Despite the Crusaders' slaughter when Salahudeen originally conquered Jerusalem in 1099, he granted amnesty and free passage to all common Catholics and even to the defeated Christian army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin

    lets have A PROFOUND IN LOOK, INTO THE REAL BACKGROUND SITUATIONS DURING THIS REVELATIONS of Sura Tauba (Sura 9)

    8AH 629 AD MONTH OF RAMADHAN

    The leader of Quraish pagans of Mecca, Abu Sufyan arrives in Medina to apologise the breach of their Treaty with Muslims (killings within the corridor of kaaba,indeed a breach of worst degree) but he is not welcomed by Prophet who took prompt action after the breach so as not to allow them any opportunity to gather enough force after this, and made a sudden invasion with 10,000 companions on Mecca in the month of Ramadan in 8 AH and conquered it 18th day (approx) of Ramadhan peacefully without any resistance (except under 1 division, under Khalid bin Waleed, out of 4 divisions where a few deaths 12 kafirs who took arms and 4 muslims ) with a very few number of deaths who were war criminals. After this victory Even those Kafirs who gave Prophet & his companions gruesome hardship for 10 + 3 years (boycott of Food & medicines) are forgiven in this invasion and even assured of Security who stay behind the doors and religious freedom given even to the kafirs who worship idols with in their respective houses.

    Ibn Abbas said that his father Al-'Abbas. 'Abd al-Mutalib brought Ahu Sufyan b. Harb to the Messenger of God (SAAS) at Man al-Zamn and he accepted Islam. Al Abbas told him,"Messenger of God, Aha Sufym is a man who likes to enjoy prestige; perhaps you could do something for him." "Yes," he replied. "Whoever goes into Abu Sufyan's house will be secure. And whoever locks his door will be secure." When one companion , Sa'd bin Ubada who was holding the flag of the Muslims uttered something words like, this was the day of revenge, was immediately admonished by Prophet by replacing him by another person, to hold that flag.


    8AH 629 AD MONTH OF SHAWWAL (about 15-20 days after the conquest of Mecca)


    Note : THIS ALSO PROVES THE FOLLOWING VERY NOTABLE POINTS & FACTS

    1) From Mecca within 20 days of its successful conquest Prophet took his army to Taif or Battle of Hunain with 12000 soldiers. The total population of Mecca then about 60,000 (approx) and were not forced to accept Islam hence not forced to take part in the battle of Hunain because we know every Muslim a old convert or new convert of just a day over 15 years old are OBLIGED to take part in the Religious battle ( except with those with very old mothers or those who were assigned duty to take care of safety of women and children.) But Prophet left with all his companions 10,000 of them from Medina + ONLY 2000 NEW CONVERTS out of 60,000, PROVING no forceful conversions on the natives of Mecca even after the successful conquest of Mecca Subhanallah , Allah and his Prophet so pure so sweet,wow unlike our world wars the loosers become human shields and slaves for the armies construction works as was done by many armies like Japanese etc. ( River Kwai Bridge i 've visited and saw how terrible those prisoners have suffered to built this Burma- Death railway about 400 kms long in amidst a deep gorge that too when there were no SOPHISTICATED cranes those times in which 90,000 out of 180,000 died )

    2) These EXTRA 2000 soldiers who are new converts of Mecca request Prophet on seeing a HUGE tree to grant them this tree to be made a tree of luck (hanging threads and ropes) as in the days of ignorance at which Prophet admonish them saying they are asking something like the Jews asked Moses (pbuh) for some idols like the non believers had. This shows that these Meccan reverts were very new in their faith except some who lived in Islam, hidingly, lived as muslims untill Prophet took over Mecca to expose their faith .

    3) Even after Muslims have taken over Mecca and destroyed the 360 idols in the Kaaba the kaffirs in Mecca or any where were still allowed to visit Kaaba Shrine at Mecca as was in the days of ignorance with their usual circumambulating it naked (their haj) and whistling clapping was their worship ( very patient Muslims, indeed, even after assuming power).

    Noble Quran '' And their prayer at the House was not except whistling and handclapping. So taste the punishment for what you disbelieved.''


    4) This proves though the idols were removed from the Kaaba pagans, Idolators were STILL living around the Kaaba simultaneously doing Idol worship at their homes



    LATER PART OF 8AH and EARLY 9AH


    After the great victory of Hunain where 6000 women and children ( People of Taif ) captives were freed back by Prophet ( some even with Prophet's own money) after being taken as captives, Forgiving even the worst people who did not even stick to their usual world renowned Arab trait to dignify guests but stoned Prophet chasing him out of the city and this news of Prophet's mercifulness towards these worst rudest people on the Earth and this news spread all around Saudi Arabia and the world, which made them convert to Islam with about 70 delegations all voluntarily visiting Prophet at Medina and accepting islam , even at last the Taif tribes , their leaders visited Prophet and accepted islam. So Muslims who were 12,000 in later 8AH grew many folds , multiplied more than 10 TIMES just in 2 YEARs at the last haj of Prophet on 11 AH when there were 124,000 Hajis only at the valley of Arafah .


    LATER PART 9AH, 630 AD REVELATION OF THE NEW LAW

    The next year after conquest of Mecca Prophet does not attend haj but sends his closest companion Abu Bakr Sidiqque (Ra) as the Amir, leader for the Hajis from Medina . After Abubakr (ra) had left Medina with Hajis , Allah reveals this sura At Tauba (including verses 9:5-6) to dissolve the agreements with kafirs living in the vicinity of Mecca after giving a grace period of ample 4 months (about 6 miles radius) who have been guaranteed safety behind the doors for the past 15 months to do whatever they liked (even worship the idols, lol) within their homes and as per the international law those times if a guarantee or agreement is changed or made void it was necessary to give such a notice of dissolution in advance of 50 days so that the other party is not forced out in Shock or surprise.

    So Prophet sends his son in law Ali ibn Abu Talib with this revelation new message - NEW LAW of Demarcation (sura 9:1-6) after the Hajis have already left Medina so as to be proclaimed at every important place of Mecca so as to the news to reach all of its inhabitants in its every nook and corner. So surroundings of Mecca of about 6 mile radius (No enter zone for Non Muslims still as today and even for Muslims ONLY the Ihram area during Haj ) is made a debarred zone ONLY RESTORING the lost dignity of the Monotheists , THE FIRST PLACE OF WORSHIP OF THE ONE TRUE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS, THE KAABA ,'' COMPLETELY '' liberating the EVER first house of Allah on this GLOBE FROM POLYTHEISM that was built even before Abraham but reconstructed by the renowned Monotheist to all semetic religions Prophet Abraham on its old foundationshttp://quran.com/22/26# but has been still under the intrusions of the polytheists who still circumambulated it naked (their haj) and whistling clapping was their worship (satanic indeed)

    so verse 9:5

    which says those who opt to stay within the 6 miles radius of the Kaaba ( as of NOW TODAY ''strictly Ihram Area '' even for Muslims during Haj) MUST BE ONLY THE BELIEVERS (Monotheists- Muslims ) AND NOT THE IDOL WORSHIPPERS SO they have to move out of Mecca (with their idols and since the guarantee given by prophet before 15 months that you can do anything- just with in doors is revoked with ample time of 4 months,

    Wow so kind of Allah swt iow the Non Muslims enjoyed (even idols-shirk n kufar ) there in their houses for 19 months even after the conquest of Mecca,( in Spain Muslims were not given just a day but killed, raped, converted ) and ONLY those kafirs who will not still abide by this open warning of verse 9:5 after 4 months will be killed if they fight or even in that case of expiry of 4 months if these non muslims breachers of the NEW LAW did not raise arms to fight the muslims but surrendered , Muslims must explain to them about Islam and even still if these stupids ( whistling , clapping, nude worshippers, lol is that a worship in the house of Lord af Abraham ? ? ) do not accept Islam escort them to a place of safety because they are the people who do not know (9:6 http://quran.com/9:6 )

    Is there any Religion as sweet as Islam ????? which also says to protect these stupid non believers out from the danger zone and leave them into their community where they are safe ?
    Last edited by talibilm09; 18-10-15 at 05:02 PM.

  2. #41
    Odan talibilm09's Avatar
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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    FROM THE SCHOLAR & AUTHOR OF THE TAFSIR TAFHEEM UL QURAN .

    ''It seems as if the Verse of the Sword became a “sword” that would cut the heads of verses, leaving them lifeless and so their wordings would be recited yet with no meanings !


    The Verse of the Sword: Which One?


    Ironically enough, they ( Talibilms words: Scholars not Sahabas ) have differed as to which verse is the Verse of the Sword which is claimed to have abrogated those numerous verses of the Qur’an. However, they all agree that it is a verse from the Chapter of At-Tawbah. [Namely, it is one of the following verses:]

    1) “Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them…” (At-Tawbah: 5)

    2)“… and wage war on all the idolaters as they are waging war on all of you…” (At-Tawbah: 36)

    3)“Go forth, light (armed) and heavy (armed), and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah...” (At-Tawbah: 41)

    4)“Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.” (At-Tawbah: 29) ''



    But before its decided which verse it is and how abrogation could be effective lets take into account and keep in mind some of these verses of the Noble Quran and Hadith

    “… a Scripture the revelations whereof are perfected and then expounded. (It cometh) from One Wise, Informed.” (Hud: 1)

    and “Falsehood cannot come at it from before it or behind it. (It is) a revelation from the Wise, the Owner of Praise.” (Fussilat: 42)

    “And in whatsoever ye differ, the verdict therein belongeth to Allah…” (Ash-Shura: 10) ''

    So you can read more from this scholar on this issue http://www.onislam.net/english/shari...the-sword.html



    HADITHS TO KEEP IN MIND BEFORE DECIDING THE AUTHENTICATION OF ANY IMPORTANT MATTER IN ISLAM

    PROPHET GUARANTEED ONLY UNTILL TABE'IEN.

    Sayyidina lmran ibn Husayn (RA) reported that Allah’s Messenger said, The best of my ummah is the generation to which 1 have been sent, then they who will follow them.’ The narrator said, ‘And I do not remember if he mentioned the third (generation) or not, “After that’, the Prophet (SAW) said, “A people will come who will voluntarily give testimony, they will commit treachery and will not be trustworthy. They will be corpulent, generally. [Bukhari 2651]


    ASTRAY SCHOLARS
    Al Tirmidhi (no.2229) and others record the following hadith:
    abu Dhar said, "I was with the Prophet (SAW) one day and I heard him saing: "There is something I fear for my Ummah than the Dajjal." It was then that I became afraid, so I said: " Oh Rasool Allah! Which thing is that?" He (SAW) said; "Misguided and astray scholars''


    VIEWS OF MADHABI IMAAMS AND SCHOLARS

    Imam Ahmad bin Hambal reportedly used to say that anyone claiming ijma' (after the age of suhaba) is a liar.(40)

    In his Itiqan [Perfection], the prominent scholar, As-Suyuti, quoted Ibn Al-Hasar’s saying: “Abrogation is identified through an explicit transmission either from the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) or from a Companion [Sahabi] where he said that a certain verse abrogated another certain verse.”He also said, “Abrogation is not to be established on the basis of a statement of an Exegete nor on personal reasoning [ijtihad] as long as there is no authentic transmission or clear contradiction. This is because abrogation includes the removal of a [shar`i] ruling and the establishment of [another] ruling, [and this should have been] confirmed during the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). This [confirmation] is to be authenticated through transmission and history, not through personal reasoning and opinions.”[8]


    The above reminders Prove if you want to speak about such VERY IMPORTANT matters about the Noble Quran and its verses abrogating never speak WITHOUT SOLID & EXPLICIT proofs except from the Sahih Hadiths AND Statements of renowned Sahabas or inferd from their actions or from Tabeien, at the least to its validity with proofs from Prophet and his Sahabas.

    .

    PROOFS MUST BE AS CLEAR CUT & EXPLICIT LIKE THE FOLLOWING HADITH ABOUT ABROGATION

    Narrated salama: When the Divine Revelation: "For those who can fast, they had a choice either fast, or feed a poor for every day," (2.184) was revealed, it was permissible for one to give a ransom and give up fasting, till the Verse succeeding it was revealed and abrogated it. ( bukari Book #60 , Hadith #34)

    Note :o know ''Abrogation '' though a wrong translation or term and how does it work and the purpose behind have agood read here http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...-Contradicting


    As per the above hadith by Mother of Believers, Salama (ra) IF THE succeeding verse CAN ABROGATE THE PREVIOUS verse IMPLIES succeeding verse of tauba 9:6 ( escort the polytheisers to safety ) will abrogate the previous verse of 9:5 (Kill the polytheisers) which will not make sense When they are just next to next. Since once they are killed , How are we going to escort them ? Don't we know that Allah swt says the Noble Quran is from him and without contradictions !!! ? so We have to understand the CONTEXT of why and when such verses are revealed and how they were implemented by the Prophet and his companions.

    And the Context is very visible in the first 14 verses of the Sura tauba http://legacy.quran.com/9/1-14 and this thread
    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...rse-9-5-say-So

    9:13 ''Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths (pagans of Makkah) and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first? Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are believers.

    and also verse 9:4 and 9:7 specifies in which CONTEXT such verses were told and the most basic is being the Prohibition of polytheists pilgrimage to the Kaaba who also did it nude with whistling and clapping was their worship ( 8:35 ). lets see them

    9:4 ''Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

    9:7 ''.....................................So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].''

    9: 28 ''O you who have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after this, their [final] year............''

    9:29.'' Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.



    NOTE : It can't be denied those who strive in the path of Allah with wealth and their lives are the best but doing it without proper guidance of the noble Quran and hadith and sunnah may earn Sins than virtues so in the worst scenario a Polytheist who did not attack Islam or kill muslims cannot be executed but only can be expelled , rather escorted out of the Arabian Peninsula, at the most.. This is the reason why 14 million kafirs are still living in ME who are the citizens and affordable among them are paying Jizzya while the largest country in the ME, Saudi's Muslim citizens population is only 29 million.
    Last edited by talibilm09; 18-10-15 at 04:52 PM.

  3. #42
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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    We must know fanatics try to twist this verse of Noble Quran 9:5 to suit their agenda not only by trying to prove through statements of Scholars after 5-600 years after tabieen or the second generation after Prophet which does not carry authenticity according to the hadith mentioned in the above post but also modify, hijack them against those Imaam themselves (post # 8 here ) which is proved as lies by those Imaams statements below


    Many scholars say that Quran 9:5 it self is abrogated .Imam al-Qurtubi mentions that al-Dahhak, ‘Ata’, and others are of the opinion that the above-mentioned verse (Qur’an 47:4) abrogates the “Verse of the Sword.” Al-Thawri relates from Juwaybir, that al-Dahhak said, “Slay the polytheists wherever you find them… (9:5)” is abrogated by the verse, “Then set them free or ransom them….(47:4).”And of course these verses were in the context of battle with the Pagans who attacked the Muslims 1st (Quran 9:13).



    The claim that the “Verse of the Sword” abrogates other verses that encourage peace and tolerance is challenged by many exegetes. For example, among the verses it is claimed are abrogated by the Verse of the Sword, is the following, “If they [your enemies] incline towards peace then you should likewise incline and place your trust in Allah. Surely, He hears and knows all” (Qur’an 8:61). Imam Qurtubi engages in a lengthy discussion of why this verse is not abrogated. In the context of his discussion, he mentions that this verse is the basis for Muslims entering into a treaty of peace with non-Muslims that can extend indefinitely.

    Imam Tabari similarly rejects the idea that this verse is abrogated. He mentions, “As for those who repeat what Qatada and others mention concerning the abrogation of this verse [by the Verse of the Sword]it is a baseless statement unsubstantiated by the Qur’an, the Sunna (prophetic tradition), or sound intellect.” Ibn Kathir, after mentioning the opinion that this verse is abrogated specifically rejects that idea. He states, “There is no contradiction (tanafi), abrogation (naskh) or specification(takhsis) [in this verse].”

    In fact concerning 9:5 which they claim Ibn kathir says abrogates 2:256, we read that Ibn kathir merely gives THE OPINION of a person by the name of Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim who said, “It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.”Notice this opinion is not traced back to Allah or the Messenger, which is why the claims of fanatics are baseless but Ad -Dahnak's narrations of Ibn abbas and Abu hurayrah through him are rejected http://islamicencyclopedia.org/publi...cDetail/id/249


    NOTE: When our stance as per the above post of # 41 is that there can be no abrogation of ANY Noble Quran verse without CLEAR CUT HADITH AND ENDORSEMENT BY ACTIONS OF PROPHET OR HIS COMPANIONS so this post was just to prove how fanatics make proofs just to support their ideas inpost # 8 which is baseless in Shariah and these statements of later Scholars (600 years later ) are only secondary when the Noble Quran is clear, Prophets Hadiths and actions are clear and the actions of companions are also clearly inclined towards peace and fairness and also proved by the rightly guided Caliphs and heros of Islam like Hafiz Saluhudeen Al Ayyubi.(May Allah shower his mercy on him.)
    Last edited by talibilm09; 19-10-15 at 02:23 PM.

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    An-Najdi abufulaans's Avatar
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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    We must know fanatics try to twist this verse of Noble Quran 9:5 to suit their agenda not only by trying to prove through statements of Scholars after 5-600 years after tabieen or the second generation after Prophet which does not carry authenticity according to the hadith mentioned in the above post but also modify, hijack them against those Imaam themselves (post # 8 here ) which is proved as lies by those Imaams statements below


    Many scholars say that Quran 9:5 it self is abrogated .Imam al-Qurtubi mentions that al-Dahhak, ‘Ata’, and others are of the opinion that the above-mentioned verse (Qur’an 47:4) abrogates the “Verse of the Sword.” Al-Thawri relates from Juwaybir, that al-Dahhak said, “Slay the polytheists wherever you find them… (9:5)” is abrogated by the verse, “Then set them free or ransom them….(47:4).”And of course these verses were in the context of battle with the Pagans who attacked the Muslims 1st (Quran 9:13).



    The claim that the “Verse of the Sword” abrogates other verses that encourage peace and tolerance is challenged by many exegetes. For example, among the verses it is claimed are abrogated by the Verse of the Sword, is the following, “If they [your enemies] incline towards peace then you should likewise incline and place your trust in Allah. Surely, He hears and knows all” (Qur’an 8:61). Imam Qurtubi engages in a lengthy discussion of why this verse is not abrogated. In the context of his discussion, he mentions that this verse is the basis for Muslims entering into a treaty of peace with non-Muslims that can extend indefinitely.

    Imam Tabari similarly rejects the idea that this verse is abrogated. He mentions, “As for those who repeat what Qatada and others mention concerning the abrogation of this verse [by the Verse of the Sword]it is a baseless statement unsubstantiated by the Qur’an, the Sunna (prophetic tradition), or sound intellect.” Ibn Kathir, after mentioning the opinion that this verse is abrogated specifically rejects that idea. He states, “There is no contradiction (tanafi), abrogation (naskh) or specification(takhsis) [in this verse].”

    In fact concerning 9:5 which they claim Ibn kathir says abrogates 2:256, we read that Ibn kathir merely gives THE OPINION of a person by the name of Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim who said, “It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.”Notice this opinion is not traced back to Allah or the Messenger, which is why the claims of fanatics are baseless but Ad -Dahnak's narrations of Ibn abbas and Abu hurayrah through him are rejected http://islamicencyclopedia.org/publi...cDetail/id/249


    NOTE: When our stance as per the above post of # 41 is that there can be no abrogation of ANY Noble Quran verse without CLEAR CUT HADITH AND ENDORSEMENT BY ACTIONS OF PROPHET OR HIS COMPANIONS so this post was just to prove how fanatics make proofs just to support their ideas inpost # 8 which is baseless in Shariah and these statements of later Scholars (600 years later ) are only secondary when the Noble Quran is clear, Prophets Hadiths and actions are clear and the actions of companions are also clearly inclined towards peace and fairness and also proved by the rightly guided Caliphs and heros of Islam like Hafiz Saluhudeen Al Ayyubi.(May Allah shower his mercy on him.)

    السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

    I want to discuss this properly, let us forget about what happened in the past
    I have bolded the part I am reffering to
    Now here is the full quote from tafseer Ibn Kathir


    يقول تعالى إذا خفت من قوم خيانة فانبذ إليهم عهدهم على سواء فإن استمروا على حربك ومنابذتك فقاتلهم "وإن جنحوا" أي مالوا "للسلم" أي المسالمة والمصالحة والمهادنة "فاجنح لها" أي فمل إليها واقبل منهم ذلك ولهذا لما طلب المشركون عام الحديبية الصلح ووضع الحرب بينهم وبين رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم تسع سنين أجابهم إلى ذلك مع ما اشترطوا من الشروط الأخر. وقال عبدالله بن الإمام أحمد حدثنا محمد بن أبي بكر المقدمي حدثني فضيل بن سليمان يعني النميري حدثنا محمد بن أبي يحيى عن إياس بن عمرو الأسلمي عن علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم "إنه سيكون اختلاف أو أمر فإن استطعت أن يكون السلم فافعل" وقال لمجاهد نزلت في بني قريظة وهذا فيه نظر لأن السياق كله في وقعة بدر وذكرها مكتنف لهذا كله وقال ابن عباس ومجاهد وزيد بن أسلم وعطاء الخراساني وعكرمة والحسن وقتادة: إن هذه الآية منسوخة بآية السيف في براءة "قاتلوا الذين لا يؤمنون بالله ولا باليوم الآخر" الآية. وفيه نظر أيضا لأن آية براءة فيها الأمر بقتالهم إذا أمكن ذلك فأما إن كان العدو كثيفا فإنه يجوز مهادنتهم كما دلت عليه هذه الآية الكريمة وكما فعل النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم يوم الحديبية فلا منافاة ولا نسخ ولا تخصيص والله أعلم. وقوله "وتوكل على الله" أي صالحهم وتوكل على الله فإن الله كافيك وناصرك.



    Now the Ibn Kathir does not go on to say as you wrote that he rejects this idea, rather he says
    ''Ibn Abbas and mujahid [and more] said that this Ayah is abrogated by the verse of the sword in Surah bara'ah [al tawbah] ''Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the last day...'' In it is a view aswell as the verse of bara'ah has the command of fighting when it is possible, but when the enemy is great then it is permissible to make a truce with them as this Ayah noble Ayah shows and as the Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم did on the day of hudaybiyyah, so there is no contradiction, and no abrogation and no specification and Allah knows best''

    So Ibn Kathir took the opinion that the verse is not abrogated because it depends on the situation and if it is possible to fight, so if it possible to fight then Muslims fight, if not then Muslims can make a peace treaty as done on the day of hudaybiyyah when the enemy was equally powerful and wanted a peace treaty

    And this seems to be the correct opinion, this way both Ayaat can be put together and there is no actual abrogation
    Last edited by abufulaans; 20-10-15 at 05:31 PM.

  5. #44
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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    السلام عليكم و رحمة الله و بركاته

    I want to discuss this properly, let us forget about what happened in the past
    I have bolded the part I am reffering to
    Now here is the full quote from tafseer Ibn Kathir


    يقول تعالى إذا خفت من قوم خيانة فانبذ إليهم عهدهم على سواء فإن استمروا على حربك ومنابذتك فقاتلهم "وإن جنحوا" أي مالوا "للسلم" أي المسالمة والمصالحة والمهادنة "فاجنح لها" أي فمل إليها واقبل منهم ذلك ولهذا لما طلب المشركون عام الحديبية الصلح ووضع الحرب بينهم وبين رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم تسع سنين أجابهم إلى ذلك مع ما اشترطوا من الشروط الأخر. وقال عبدالله بن الإمام أحمد حدثنا محمد بن أبي بكر المقدمي حدثني فضيل بن سليمان يعني النميري حدثنا محمد بن أبي يحيى عن إياس بن عمرو الأسلمي عن علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم "إنه سيكون اختلاف أو أمر فإن استطعت أن يكون السلم فافعل" وقال لمجاهد نزلت في بني قريظة وهذا فيه نظر لأن السياق كله في وقعة بدر وذكرها مكتنف لهذا كله وقال ابن عباس ومجاهد وزيد بن أسلم وعطاء الخراساني وعكرمة والحسن وقتادة: إن هذه الآية منسوخة بآية السيف في براءة "قاتلوا الذين لا يؤمنون بالله ولا باليوم الآخر" الآية. وفيه نظر أيضا لأن آية براءة فيها الأمر بقتالهم إذا أمكن ذلك فأما إن كان العدو كثيفا فإنه يجوز مهادنتهم كما دلت عليه هذه الآية الكريمة وكما فعل النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم يوم الحديبية فلا منافاة ولا نسخ ولا تخصيص والله أعلم. وقوله "وتوكل على الله" أي صالحهم وتوكل على الله فإن الله كافيك وناصرك.



    Now the Ibn Kathir does not go on to say as you wrote that he rejects this idea, rather he says
    ''Ibn Abbas and mujahid [and more] said that this Ayah is abrogated by the verse of the sword in Surah bara'ah [al tawbah] ''Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the last day...'' In it is a view aswell as the verse of bara'ah has the command of fighting when it is possible, but when the enemy is great then it is permissible to make a truce with them as this Ayah noble Ayah shows and as the Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم did on the day of hudaybiyyah, so there is no contradiction, and no abrogation and no specification and Allah knows best''

    So Ibn Kathir took the opinion that the verse is not abrogated because it depends on the situation and if it is possible to fight, so if it possible to fight then Muslims fight, if not then Muslims can make a peace treaty as done on the day of hudaybiyyah when the enemy was equally powerful and wanted a peace treaty

    And this seems to be the correct opinion, this way both Ayaat can be put together and there is no actual abrogation
    brother

    Let me paste the part of my quote under your claims

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    In fact concerning 9:5 which they claim Ibn kathir says abrogates 2:256, we read that Ibn kathir merely gives THE OPINION of a person by the name of Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim [/B] who said, “It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.”Notice this opinion is not traced back to Allah or the Messenger, which is why the claims of fanatics are baseless but Ad -Dahnak's narrations of Ibn abbas and Abu hurayrah through him are rejected http://islamicencyclopedia.org/publi...cDetail/id/249

    Kindly note above that Ibn kathir took his OPINION from Ad-Dahanak bin Muzahim and Ad-Dahanak narrations through Ibn `Abbas and Abu Hurayrah were ignored by BOTH GREAT Imaams, Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal and Yahya Ibn Ma`een ( teacher of Imaam Bukhari) which was an act of wisdom in my opinion by the renowned one of the 4 accepted Imaams of the Muslim Ummah since he uttered something ( I doub't he really uttered it) which with the Faith and wisdom of the great Scholar among the companions and Cousin of Prophet (pbuh), Abdullah Ibn Abbas (ra) would have NEVER ever uttered .

    Firstly its so ABSURD he is justifying the incident of Hudaybiya that happened in the year 6 AH with a revelation of the 9 AH and you are quoting this without any deliberation or thinking. Nextly Do not say muslims made truce because Muslims were less shows your jahil ness or Ignorance of our Books . Because at Hudaibiyah 1500 Muslims were ready to fight and were 100 % confident even with their deficient Arms as in Badr but it was the ORDER of Allah swt to make peace as we came with the aim of Pilgrimage read sura Al Fath http://legacy.quran.com/48 Prophet's Companions 300 fought 1000 in Badr, 2500 faced 10,000 in BO Khandaq, 3000 fought more than 100,000 at Mutah. Allah is the giver of victory is our beliefs if we are real Muhmins as seen in the Noble Quran when during Battle of Hunayn ( mentioned in the post # 1 here ) some of the new Meccan converts and others uttered similar statements that we are more than ever before (10,000+2000) to face the tribes of Thaqif of Taif at Hunayn but got scattered only 12 remaining with Prophet facing the enemy face to face but Allah forgave them and gave guts back to recoup subhanallah. and which is seen is the same Sura Baraa or Tauba we are talking all about lest you have gone through the sura well with piety takwa but debate info only with online sites because such quotes you quote contradict the below verse just after few verses of your claim in the same sura (

    Noble Quran Sura Baraa or Tauba 9:25

    ''Allah has already given you victory in many regions and [even] on the day of Hunayn,
    when your great number pleased you, but it did not avail you at all, and the earth was confining for you with its vastness; then you turned back, fleeing''.


    When an average but devout Muslim like me will say that Allah swt is All powerful on all things and is the one who gives Victory ( as in the Noble Quran) how could the BEST SCHOLAR among the companions of Prophet and his dearest and blessed Cousin Abdullah Ibn abbas uttered such a statement that goes against the noble Quran ??? No wonder Imaam Hamba & The Teacher of our famous hadiths Imaam Bukhari also rejected this sort of absurd quotations which was narrated by Ad -Dahanak the LINK http://islamicencyclopedia.org/publi...cDetail/id/249

    which also shows that he was not a Tabe'ein or the next generation who met the Companions directly as debated by many and as I keep repeating the hadith quoted in above post # 41 '' STICK ONLY TO RENOWNED SAHABAS AND THE TABEEINS '' and also with CLEAR CUT narrations and that was IMPLEMENTED BY THEM because actions speak more than words as specified in the above post. Allahul aalam.




    BIT OF ADVICE TO MUSLIM WRITERS WITH GOOD INTENTIONS
    kindly DELIBERATE FIRST properly the HISTORIC DATES and THE HISTORIC EVENTS, before Claiming anything which only exposes our intentions, knowledge and reality because we do not know who are writing behind the Key boards . Arabic or writing in Arabic does not justify your posts nor make right your mistakes and it also does not confirm the identity of writing person because Sam Shamoun and associates the worst enemies of Islam read and write arabic and know more Quran than us but they use it only to twist them. In My opinion Such claims derogatory to Islam a true muslim will never speak on this section '' Comparative religion '' which really makes me doubts (only) their intention and Id's because you know I have the same thread in a different section but you still OPT TO REPLY HERE : Empty vessels make more noise is the Proverb. and hadith like ....... see the other thread.
    Last edited by talibilm09; 21-10-15 at 05:43 AM.

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    brother

    Let me paste the part of my quote under your claims




    Kindly note above that Ibn kathir took his OPINION from Ad-Dahanak bin Muzahim and Ad-Dahanak narrations through Ibn `Abbas and Abu Hurayrah were ignored by BOTH GREAT Imaams, Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal and Yahya Ibn Ma`een ( teacher of Imaam Bukhari) which was an act of wisdom in my opinion by the renowned one of the 4 accepted Imaams of the Muslim Ummah since he uttered something ( I doub't he really uttered it) which with the Faith and wisdom of the great Scholar among the companions and Cousin of Prophet (pbuh), Abdullah Ibn Abbas (ra) would have NEVER ever uttered .

    Firstly its so ABSURD he is justifying the incident of Hudaybiya that happened in the year 6 AH with a revelation of the 9 AH and you are quoting this without any deliberation or thinking. Nextly Do not say muslims made truce because Muslims were less shows your jahil ness or Ignorance of our Books . Because at Hudaibiyah 1500 Muslims were ready to fight and were 100 % confident even with their deficient Arms as in Badr but it was the ORDER of Allah swt to make peace as we came with the aim of Pilgrimage read sura Al Fath http://legacy.quran.com/48 Prophet's Companions 300 fought 1000 in Badr, 2500 faced 10,000 in BO Khandaq, 3000 fought more than 100,000 at Mutah. Allah is the giver of victory is our beliefs if we are real Muhmins as seen in the Noble Quran when during Battle of Hunayn ( mentioned in the post # 1 here ) some of the new Meccan converts and others uttered similar statements that we are more than ever before (10,000+2000) to face the tribes of Thaqif of Taif at Hunayn but got scattered only 12 remaining with Prophet facing the enemy face to face but Allah forgave them and gave guts back to recoup subhanallah. and which is seen is the same Sura Baraa or Tauba we are talking all about lest you have gone through the sura well with piety takwa but debate info only with online sites because such quotes you quote contradict the below verse just after few verses of your claim in the same sura (

    Noble Quran Sura Baraa or Tauba 9:25

    ''Allah has already given you victory in many regions and [even] on the day of Hunayn,
    when your great number pleased you, but it did not avail you at all, and the earth was confining for you with its vastness; then you turned back, fleeing''.


    When an average but devout Muslim like me will say that Allah swt is All powerful on all things and is the one who gives Victory ( as in the Noble Quran) how could the BEST SCHOLAR among the companions of Prophet and his dearest and blessed Cousin Abdullah Ibn abbas uttered such a statement that goes against the noble Quran ??? No wonder Imaam Hamba & The Teacher of our famous hadiths Imaam Bukhari also rejected this sort of absurd quotations which was narrated by Ad -Dahanak the LINK http://islamicencyclopedia.org/publi...cDetail/id/249

    which also shows that he was not a Tabe'ein or the next generation who met the Companions directly as debated by many and as I keep repeating the hadith quoted in above post # 41 '' STICK ONLY TO RENOWNED SAHABAS AND THE TABEEINS '' and also with CLEAR CUT narrations and that was IMPLEMENTED BY THEM because actions speak more than words as specified in the above post. Allahul aalam.




    BIT OF ADVICE TO MUSLIM WRITERS WITH GOOD INTENTIONS
    kindly DELIBERATE FIRST properly the HISTORIC DATES and THE HISTORIC EVENTS, before Claiming anything which only exposes our intentions, knowledge and reality because we do not know who are writing behind the Key boards . Arabic or writing in Arabic does not justify your posts nor make right your mistakes and it also does not confirm the identity of writing person because Sam Shamoun and associates the worst enemies of Islam read and write arabic and know more Quran than us but they use it only to twist them. In My opinion Such claims derogatory to Islam a true muslim will never speak on this section '' Comparative religion '' which really makes me doubts (only) their intention and Id's because you know I have the same thread in a different section but you still OPT TO REPLY HERE : Empty vessels make more noise is the Proverb. and hadith like ....... see the other thread.
    You have quite a few issues confused, copy this into the lounge and we will discuss over there

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Bump

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?


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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    DO not miss this thread (in the quote)

    Recapturing Islam From the Terrorists

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    MashaAllah, very good thread

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    as misquoted often by the APOLOGETICS, (Cheaters) since they hide the very next verse 9:6 which tells the Muslims to escort them to safety , http://quran.com/9/5-6

    Noble Quran 9:6 ''And if any one of the polytheists seeks your protection,so that he may hear the words of Allah . Then deliver him to his place of safety. That is because they are a people who do not know.''

    note : This is what Salahudeen Ayubi (Rahimahullah) did while taking back Jerusalem. His soldiers escorted all those who wanted leave to their places of safety, Despite the Crusaders' slaughter when Salahudeen originally conquered Jerusalem in 1099, he granted amnesty and free passage to all common Catholics and even to the defeated Christian army https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saladin

    lets have A PROFOUND IN LOOK, INTO THE REAL BACKGROUND SITUATIONS DURING THIS REVELATIONS of Sura Tauba (Sura 9)

    8AH 629 AD MONTH OF RAMADHAN

    The leader of Quraish pagans of Mecca, Abu Sufyan arrives in Medina to apologise the breach of their Treaty with Muslims (killings within the corridor of kaaba,indeed a breach of worst degree) but he is not welcomed by Prophet who took prompt action after the breach so as not to allow them any opportunity to gather enough force after this, and made a sudden invasion with 10,000 companions on Mecca in the month of Ramadan in 8 AH and conquered it 18th day (approx) of Ramadhan peacefully without any resistance (except under 1 division, under Khalid bin Waleed, out of 4 divisions where a few deaths 12 kafirs who took arms and 4 muslims ) with a very few number of deaths who were war criminals. After this victory Even those Kafirs who gave Prophet & his companions gruesome hardship for 10 + 3 years (boycott of Food & medicines) are forgiven in this invasion and even assured of Security who stay behind the doors and religious freedom given even to the kafirs who worship idols with in their respective houses.

    Ibn Abbas said that his father Al-'Abbas. 'Abd al-Mutalib brought Ahu Sufyan b. Harb to the Messenger of God (SAAS) at Man al-Zamn and he accepted Islam. Al Abbas told him,"Messenger of God, Aha Sufym is a man who likes to enjoy prestige; perhaps you could do something for him." "Yes," he replied. "Whoever goes into Abu Sufyan's house will be secure. And whoever locks his door will be secure." When one companion , Sa'd bin Ubada who was holding the flag of the Muslims uttered something words like, this was the day of revenge, was immediately admonished by Prophet by replacing him by another person, to hold that flag.


    8AH 629 AD MONTH OF SHAWWAL (about 15-20 days after the conquest of Mecca)


    Note : THIS ALSO PROVES THE FOLLOWING VERY NOTABLE POINTS & FACTS

    1) From Mecca within 20 days of its successful conquest Prophet took his army to Taif or Battle of Hunain with 12000 soldiers. The total population of Mecca then about 60,000 (approx) and were not forced to accept Islam hence not forced to take part in the battle of Hunain because we know every Muslim a old convert or new convert of just a day over 15 years old are OBLIGED to take part in the Religious battle ( except with those with very old mothers or those who were assigned duty to take care of safety of women and children.) But Prophet left with all his companions 10,000 of them from Medina + ONLY 2000 NEW CONVERTS out of 60,000, PROVING no forceful conversions on the natives of Mecca even after the successful conquest of Mecca Subhanallah , Allah and his Prophet so pure so sweet,wow unlike our world wars the loosers become human shields and slaves for the armies construction works as was done by many armies like Japanese etc. ( River Kwai Bridge i 've visited and saw how terrible those prisoners have suffered to built this Burma- Death railway about 400 kms long in amidst a deep gorge that too when there were no SOPHISTICATED cranes those times in which 90,000 out of 180,000 died )

    2) These EXTRA 2000 soldiers who are new converts of Mecca request Prophet on seeing a HUGE tree to grant them this tree to be made a tree of luck (hanging threads and ropes) as in the days of ignorance at which Prophet admonish them saying they are asking something like the Jews asked Moses (pbuh) for some idols like the non believers had. This shows that these Meccan reverts were very new in their faith except some who lived in Islam, hidingly, lived as muslims untill Prophet took over Mecca to expose their faith .

    3) Even after Muslims have taken over Mecca and destroyed the 360 idols in the Kaaba the kaffirs in Mecca or any where were still allowed to visit Kaaba Shrine at Mecca as was in the days of ignorance with their usual circumambulating it naked (their haj) and whistling clapping was their worship ( very patient Muslims, indeed, even after assuming power).

    Noble Quran '' And their prayer at the House was not except whistling and handclapping. So taste the punishment for what you disbelieved.''


    4) This proves though the idols were removed from the Kaaba pagans, Idolators were STILL living around the Kaaba simultaneously doing Idol worship at their homes



    LATER PART OF 8AH and EARLY 9AH


    After the great victory of Hunain where 6000 women and children ( People of Taif ) captives were freed back by Prophet ( some even with Prophet's own money) after being taken as captives, Forgiving even the worst people who did not even stick to their usual world renowned Arab trait to dignify guests but stoned Prophet chasing him out of the city and this news of Prophet's mercifulness towards these worst rudest people on the Earth and this news spread all around Saudi Arabia and the world, which made them convert to Islam with about 70 delegations all voluntarily visiting Prophet at Medina and accepting islam , even at last the Taif tribes , their leaders visited Prophet and accepted islam. So Muslims who were 12,000 in later 8AH grew many folds , multiplied more than 10 TIMES just in 2 YEARs at the last haj of Prophet on 11 AH when there were 124,000 Hajis only at the valley of Arafah .


    LATER PART 9AH, 630 AD REVELATION OF THE NEW LAW

    The next year after conquest of Mecca Prophet does not attend haj but sends his closest companion Abu Bakr Sidiqque (Ra) as the Amir, leader for the Hajis from Medina . After Abubakr (ra) had left Medina with Hajis , Allah reveals this sura At Tauba (including verses 9:5-6) to dissolve the agreements with kafirs living in the vicinity of Mecca after giving a grace period of ample 4 months (about 6 miles radius) who have been guaranteed safety behind the doors for the past 15 months to do whatever they liked (even worship the idols, lol) within their homes and as per the international law those times if a guarantee or agreement is changed or made void it was necessary to give such a notice of dissolution in advance of 50 days so that the other party is not forced out in Shock or surprise.

    So Prophet sends his son in law Ali ibn Abu Talib with this revelation new message - NEW LAW of Demarcation (sura 9:1-6) after the Hajis have already left Medina so as to be proclaimed at every important place of Mecca so as to the news to reach all of its inhabitants in its every nook and corner. So surroundings of Mecca of about 6 mile radius (No enter zone for Non Muslims still as today and even for Muslims ONLY the Ihram area during Haj ) is made a debarred zone ONLY RESTORING the lost dignity of the Monotheists , THE FIRST PLACE OF WORSHIP OF THE ONE TRUE CREATOR OF EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS, THE KAABA ,'' COMPLETELY '' liberating the EVER first house of Allah on this GLOBE FROM POLYTHEISM that was built even before Abraham but reconstructed by the renowned Monotheist to all semetic religions Prophet Abraham on its old foundationshttp://quran.com/22/26# but has been still under the intrusions of the polytheists who still circumambulated it naked (their haj) and whistling clapping was their worship (satanic indeed)

    so verse 9:5

    which says those who opt to stay within the 6 miles radius of the Kaaba ( as of NOW TODAY ''strictly Ihram Area '' even for Muslims during Haj) MUST BE ONLY THE BELIEVERS (Monotheists- Muslims ) AND NOT THE IDOL WORSHIPPERS SO they have to move out of Mecca (with their idols and since the guarantee given by prophet before 15 months that you can do anything- just with in doors is revoked with ample time of 4 months,

    Wow so kind of Allah swt iow the Non Muslims enjoyed (even idols-shirk n kufar ) there in their houses for 19 months even after the conquest of Mecca,( in Spain Muslims were not given just a day but killed, raped, converted ) and ONLY those kafirs who will not still abide by this open warning of verse 9:5 after 4 months will be killed if they fight or even in that case of expiry of 4 months if these non muslims breachers of the NEW LAW did not raise arms to fight the muslims but surrendered , Muslims must explain to them about Islam and even still if these stupids ( whistling , clapping, nude worshippers, lol is that a worship in the house of Lord af Abraham ? ? ) do not accept Islam escort them to a place of safety because they are the people who do not know (9:6 http://quran.com/9:6 )

    Is there any Religion as sweet as Islam ????? which also says to protect these stupid non believers out from the danger zone and leave them into their community where they are safe ?
    JazakAllah bro

    Its clear cut evident,,,,


    But thanks for explaining
    Please Please Please Make Dua for these Click Here JazakAllahi

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoogleSlayer View Post
    JazakAllah bro

    Its clear cut evident,,,,


    But thanks for explaining
    :

    Wa iyyakum Bro. Another Incident which clearly proves that Allah and his Prophet endorsed Peace more than confrontation even if we were able to fight was this incident of treaty of Hudaibiya which even the greater Sahabas considered as loosing face of Muslims but Allah , Al Hakim called it as a Victory - Sura Al Fath and Allah Proved it true when islam grew at a very slow pace (about 1500 Sahabas in the first 16 years of preaching) untill after Treaty of Hudaibiya in just couple of years Muslims swelled many times into about 10,000 Sahabas leading into peaceful conquest of Mecca and the below Hadith describes it too


    Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 53 :: Hadith 406

    Narrated Abu Wail:
    We were in Siffin and Sahl bin Hunaif got up and said, "O people! Blame yourselves! We were with the Prophet on the day of Hudaibiya, and if we had been called to fight, we would have fought. But 'Umar bin Al Khatab came and said, 'O Allah's Apostle! Aren't we in the right and our opponents in the wrongs' Allah's Apostle said, 'Yes.' 'Umar said, 'Aren't our killed persons in Paradise and their's in Hell?' He said, 'Yes.' 'Umar said, 'Then why should we accept hard terms in matters concerning our religion? Shall we return before Allah judges between us and them?' Allah's Apostle said, 'O Ibn Al-Khattab! I am the Apostle of Allah and Allah will never degrade me. Then 'Umar went to Abu Bakr and told him the same as he had told the Prophet.On that Abu Bakr said (to 'Umar). 'He is the Apostle of Allah and Allah will never degrade him.' Then Surat-al-Fath (i.e. Victory) was revealed and Allah's Apostle recited it to the end in front of 'Umar. On that 'Umar asked, 'O Allah's Apostle! Was it (i.e. the Hudaibiya Treaty) a victory?' Allah's Apostle said, "Yes"



    But speaking on the topic of Muslims under unjust harassments in Kuffar Countries I am of the opinion Muslims must Unite and show their Peaceful protest and take actions abiding the law or keeping quiet will only worsen our plight. The below thread is one such case where steps must be taken PROMPTLY & LEGALLY & STRINGENTLY BY THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY THERE . NEVER LET IT GO WHEN THE MISTAKE IS CLEARLY ON THEIR SIDE & CLAIM HEFTY DEFAMATION CHARGES to avoid repetition of such incidents

    http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...lim-woman.html
    Last edited by talibilm09; 15-08-16 at 02:44 PM.

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AbuNajm View Post
    the only polytheist exempted from the verse of the sword is the one who asks for a guarantee of safety specifically in order to hear the Quran or about Islam, and no one else
    and then try to reconcile this with "let there be no compulsion in matters of religion"

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    :

    Wa iyyakum Bro. Another Incident which clearly proves that Allah and his Prophet endorsed Peace more than confrontation even if we were able to fight was this incident of treaty of Hudaibiya which even the greater Sahabas considered as loosing face of Muslims but Allah , Al Hakim called it as a Victory - Sura Al Fath and Allah Proved it true when islam grew at a very slow pace (about 1500 Sahabas in the first 16 years of preaching) untill after Treaty of Hudaibiya in just couple of years Muslims swelled many times into about 10,000 Sahabas leading into peaceful conquest of Mecca and the below Hadith describes it too


    Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 53 :: Hadith 406

    Narrated Abu Wail:
    We were in Siffin and Sahl bin Hunaif got up and said, "O people! Blame yourselves! We were with the Prophet on the day of Hudaibiya, and if we had been called to fight, we would have fought. But 'Umar bin Al Khatab came and said, 'O Allah's Apostle! Aren't we in the right and our opponents in the wrongs' Allah's Apostle said, 'Yes.' 'Umar said, 'Aren't our killed persons in Paradise and their's in Hell?' He said, 'Yes.' 'Umar said, 'Then why should we accept hard terms in matters concerning our religion? Shall we return before Allah judges between us and them?' Allah's Apostle said, 'O Ibn Al-Khattab! I am the Apostle of Allah and Allah will never degrade me. Then 'Umar went to Abu Bakr and told him the same as he had told the Prophet.On that Abu Bakr said (to 'Umar). 'He is the Apostle of Allah and Allah will never degrade him.' Then Surat-al-Fath (i.e. Victory) was revealed and Allah's Apostle recited it to the end in front of 'Umar. On that 'Umar asked, 'O Allah's Apostle! Was it (i.e. the Hudaibiya Treaty) a victory?' Allah's Apostle said, "Yes"



    But speaking on the topic of Muslims under unjust harassments in Kuffar Countries I am of the opinion Muslims must Unite and show their Peaceful protest and take actions abiding the law or keeping quiet will only worsen our plight. The below thread is one such case where steps must be taken PROMPTLY & LEGALLY & STRINGENTLY BY THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY THERE . NEVER LET IT GO WHEN THE MISTAKE IS CLEARLY ON THEIR SIDE & CLAIM HEFTY DEFAMATION CHARGES to avoid repetition of such incidents

    http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...lim-woman.html
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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by grady View Post
    and then try to reconcile this with "let there be no compulsion in matters of religion"
    No need to "try". The Ayah you're quoting is abrogated by the Verse of the Sword according to the scholars of the science of abrogation. Even among the scholars who do not say it is abrogated, they say the verse of no compulsion only applies to those who pay Jizyah.

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly. 60:8 Qur'an

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Muhimm......
    يَٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلنَّاسُ ٱعْبُدُوا۟ رَبَّكُمُ ٱلَّذِى خَلَقَكُمْ وَٱلَّذِينَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَتَّقُونَ

    O mankind, worship your Lord, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous

    Surah Al Baqarah ayah 21

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    we must know fanatics try to twist this verse of noble quran 9:5 to suit their agenda not only by trying to prove through statements of scholars after 5-600 years after tabieen or the second generation after prophet which does not carry authenticity according to the hadith mentioned in the above post but also modify, hijack them against those imaam themselves (post # 8 here ) which is proved as lies by those imaams statements below


    many scholars say that quran 9:5 it self is abrogated .imam al-qurtubi mentions that al-dahhak, ‘ata’, and others are of the opinion that the above-mentioned verse (qur’an 47:4) abrogates the “verse of the sword.” al-thawri relates from juwaybir, that al-dahhak said, “slay the polytheists wherever you find them… (9:5)” is abrogated by the verse, “then set them free or ransom them….(47:4).”and of course these verses were in the context of battle with the pagans who attacked the muslims 1st (quran 9:13).



    The claim that the “verse of the sword” abrogates other verses that encourage peace and tolerance is challenged by many exegetes. For example, among the verses it is claimed are abrogated by the verse of the sword, is the following, “if they [your enemies] incline towards peace then you should likewise incline and place your trust in allah. surely, he hears and knows all” (qur’an 8:61). imam qurtubi engages in a lengthy discussion of why this verse is not abrogated. in the context of his discussion, he mentions that this verse is the basis for muslims entering into a treaty of peace with non-muslims that can extend indefinitely.

    imam tabari similarly rejects the idea that this verse is abrogated. he mentions, “as for those who repeat what qatada and others mention concerning the abrogation of this verse [by the verse of the sword]it is a baseless statement unsubstantiated by the qur’an, the sunna (prophetic tradition), or sound intellect.” ibn kathir, after mentioning the opinion that this verse is abrogated specifically rejects that idea. He states, “there is no contradiction (tanafi), abrogation (naskh) or specification(takhsis) [in this verse].”

    in fact concerning 9:5 which they claim ibn kathir says abrogates 2:256, we read that ibn kathir merely gives the opinion of a person by the name of ad-dahhak bin muzahim who said, “it abrogated every agreement of peace between the prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.”notice this opinion is not traced back to allah or the messenger, which is why the claims of fanatics are baseless but ad -dahnak's narrations of ibn abbas and abu hurayrah through him are rejected http://islamicencyclopedia.org/publi...cdetail/id/249


    note: when our stance as per the above post of # 41 is that there can be no abrogation of any noble quran verse without clear cut hadith and endorsement by actions of prophet or his companions so this post was just to prove how fanatics make proofs just to support their ideas inpost # 8 which is baseless in shariah and these statements of later scholars (600 years later ) are only secondary when the noble quran is clear, prophets hadiths and actions are clear and the actions of companions are also clearly inclined towards peace and fairness and also proved by the rightly guided caliphs and heros of islam like hafiz saluhudeen al ayyubi.(may allah shower his mercy on him.)

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    FROM THE SCHOLAR & AUTHOR OF THE TAFSIR TAFHEEM UL QURAN .

    ''It seems as if the Verse of the Sword became a “sword” that would cut the heads of verses, leaving them lifeless and so their wordings would be recited yet with no meanings !


    The Verse of the Sword: Which One?


    Ironically enough, they ( Talibilms words: Scholars not Sahabas ) have differed as to which verse is the Verse of the Sword which is claimed to have abrogated those numerous verses of the Qur’an. However, they all agree that it is a verse from the Chapter of At-Tawbah. [Namely, it is one of the following verses:]

    1) “Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them…” (At-Tawbah: 5)

    2)“… and wage war on all the idolaters as they are waging war on all of you…” (At-Tawbah: 36)

    3)“Go forth, light (armed) and heavy (armed), and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah...” (At-Tawbah: 41)

    4)“Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the religion of truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.” (At-Tawbah: 29) ''



    But before its decided which verse it is and how abrogation could be effective lets take into account and keep in mind some of these verses of the Noble Quran and Hadith

    “… a Scripture the revelations whereof are perfected and then expounded. (It cometh) from One Wise, Informed.” (Hud: 1)

    and “Falsehood cannot come at it from before it or behind it. (It is) a revelation from the Wise, the Owner of Praise.” (Fussilat: 42)

    “And in whatsoever ye differ, the verdict therein belongeth to Allah…” (Ash-Shura: 10) ''

    So you can read more from this scholar on this issue http://www.onislam.net/english/shari...the-sword.html



    HADITHS TO KEEP IN MIND BEFORE DECIDING THE AUTHENTICATION OF ANY IMPORTANT MATTER IN ISLAM

    PROPHET GUARANTEED ONLY UNTILL TABE'IEN.

    Sayyidina lmran ibn Husayn (RA) reported that Allah’s Messenger said, The best of my ummah is the generation to which 1 have been sent, then they who will follow them.’ The narrator said, ‘And I do not remember if he mentioned the third (generation) or not, “After that’, the Prophet (SAW) said, “A people will come who will voluntarily give testimony, they will commit treachery and will not be trustworthy. They will be corpulent, generally. [Bukhari 2651]


    ASTRAY SCHOLARS
    Al Tirmidhi (no.2229) and others record the following hadith:
    abu Dhar said, "I was with the Prophet (SAW) one day and I heard him saing: "There is something I fear for my Ummah than the Dajjal." It was then that I became afraid, so I said: " Oh Rasool Allah! Which thing is that?" He (SAW) said; "Misguided and astray scholars''


    VIEWS OF MADHABI IMAAMS AND SCHOLARS

    Imam Ahmad bin Hambal reportedly used to say that anyone claiming ijma' (after the age of suhaba) is a liar.(40)

    In his Itiqan [Perfection], the prominent scholar, As-Suyuti, quoted Ibn Al-Hasar’s saying: “Abrogation is identified through an explicit transmission either from the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) or from a Companion [Sahabi] where he said that a certain verse abrogated another certain verse.”He also said, “Abrogation is not to be established on the basis of a statement of an Exegete nor on personal reasoning [ijtihad] as long as there is no authentic transmission or clear contradiction. This is because abrogation includes the removal of a [shar`i] ruling and the establishment of [another] ruling, [and this should have been] confirmed during the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). This [confirmation] is to be authenticated through transmission and history, not through personal reasoning and opinions.”[8]


    The above reminders Prove if you want to speak about such VERY IMPORTANT matters about the Noble Quran and its verses abrogating never speak WITHOUT SOLID & EXPLICIT proofs except from the Sahih Hadiths AND Statements of renowned Sahabas or inferd from their actions or from Tabeien, at the least to its validity with proofs from Prophet and his Sahabas.

    .

    PROOFS MUST BE AS CLEAR CUT & EXPLICIT LIKE THE FOLLOWING HADITH ABOUT ABROGATION

    Narrated salama: When the Divine Revelation: "For those who can fast, they had a choice either fast, or feed a poor for every day," (2.184) was revealed, it was permissible for one to give a ransom and give up fasting, till the Verse succeeding it was revealed and abrogated it. ( bukari Book #60 , Hadith #34)

    Note :o know ''Abrogation '' though a wrong translation or term and how does it work and the purpose behind have agood read here http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...-Contradicting


    As per the above hadith by Mother of Believers, Salama (ra) IF THE succeeding verse CAN ABROGATE THE PREVIOUS verse IMPLIES succeeding verse of tauba 9:6 ( escort the polytheisers to safety ) will abrogate the previous verse of 9:5 (Kill the polytheisers) which will not make sense When they are just next to next. Since once they are killed , How are we going to escort them ? Don't we know that Allah swt says the Noble Quran is from him and without contradictions !!! ? so We have to understand the CONTEXT of why and when such verses are revealed and how they were implemented by the Prophet and his companions.

    And the Context is very visible in the first 14 verses of the Sura tauba http://legacy.quran.com/9/1-14 and this thread
    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...rse-9-5-say-So

    9:13 ''Will you not fight a people who have violated their oaths (pagans of Makkah) and intended to expel the Messenger, while they did attack you first? Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him, if you are believers.

    and also verse 9:4 and 9:7 specifies in which CONTEXT such verses were told and the most basic is being the Prohibition of polytheists pilgrimage to the Kaaba who also did it nude with whistling and clapping was their worship ( 8:35 ). lets see them

    9:4 ''Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].

    9:7 ''.....................................So as long as they are upright toward you, be upright toward them. Indeed, Allah loves the righteous [who fear Him].''

    9: 28 ''O you who have believed, indeed the polytheists are unclean, so let them not approach al-Masjid al-Haram after this, their [final] year............''

    9:29.'' Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.



    NOTE : It can't be denied those who strive in the path of Allah with wealth and their lives are the best but doing it without proper guidance of the noble Quran and hadith and sunnah may earn Sins than virtues so in the worst scenario a Polytheist who did not attack Islam or kill muslims cannot be executed but only can be expelled , rather escorted out of the Arabian Peninsula, at the most.. This is the reason why 14 million kafirs are still living in ME who are the citizens and affordable among them are paying Jizzya while the largest country in the ME, Saudi's Muslim citizens population is only 29 million.
    bumped for the old time arguer AbuNajm
    Last edited by talibilm09; 10-12-16 at 08:04 AM.
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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    bumped for the old time arguer AbuNajm
    Uncle jee, use the 'quote' or 'mention' functions. That's what they're there for.

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    Uncle jee, use the 'quote' or 'mention' functions. That's what they're there for.
    Yeah jee , I was thinking that too.
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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    There is no DOUBT of no compulsion on Religion for the dhimmis as The term itself means they are on the Protection of Muslims . There is no DOP on it.

    With the outside kuffar world is that you can invite them to Islam with Hikmah and good manners first if they do not listen leave it with this as Prophet did it

    3:64 '' Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah ." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims [submitting to Him]."
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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    http://legacy.quran.com/60/7-9

    ''Perhaps Allah will put, between you and those to whom you have been enemies among them, affection. And Allah is competent, and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

    Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.

    Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers ''.
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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    BUMP with a hadith

    Muslim :: Book 1 : Hadith 271
    It is narrated on the authority of Ibn 'Umar ('Abdullah b. 'Umar) that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed: Verily Islam started as something strange and it would again revert (to its old position) of being strange just as it started, and it would recede between the two mosques just as the serpent crawls back into its hole.

    Note:
    hope we do not reach this stage of Islam in the near future, inshallah
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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    i have a question

    are these christians insane ?

    do they really want us to go now and kill all of them we they quote these verses ?

    wow, it seems they ARE insane
    "arm yourself with knowledge and laugh at the accusers"
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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Isa Ali View Post
    Really!? Are Muslims commanded in the Quran to kill Non-Muslims wherever they find them?
    That is not what the prophet of Islam did, may he rest in peace. All his companions started their life as ignorant pagans, until the messenger converted them. So, you should always seek to convert the pagans, and not to kill them. Concerning the really dangerous pagan idiots, it is better to talk one pagan into killing another one, so that you don't have to do that by yourself, because you could make your clothes dirty. We all know that we try to avoid making our clothes dirty in religion. Occasionally, but rarely, it happens that you have to knock out a pagan by yourself. Even the prophet of Islam once in a while ran into that situation, but in general, he converted most of the pagans in Arabia. The ones who died, were the exception, not the rule. Arabia was not massively depopulated after his mission. Most Arabs happily survived it, even though they were pagan at that time.

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by pronorah View Post
    That is not what the prophet of Islam did, may he rest in peace. All his companions started their life as ignorant pagans, until the messenger converted them. So, you should always seek to convert the pagans, and not to kill them. Concerning the really dangerous pagan idiots, it is better to talk one pagan into killing another one, so that you don't have to do that by yourself, because you could make your clothes dirty. We all know that we try to avoid making our clothes dirty in religion. Occasionally, but rarely, it happens that you have to knock out a pagan by yourself. Even the prophet of Islam once in a while ran into that situation, but in general, he converted most of the pagans in Arabia. The ones who died, were the exception, not the rule. Arabia was not massively depopulated after his mission. Most Arabs happily survived it, even though they were pagan at that time.
    Hi Bro,

    just noted this 'bolded above'' which is proved to be Misconception from the records of Islam . We Muslims are not supposed to be trickery or use deception even with the peace loving non Muslims . This we see when the Conquest of Mecca took place it took place because the kuffar of Mecca killed people from the Khuza tribe who were also pagans ( Khuza were peace loving kaffirs but our friends our allies) and the below statement of our Greatest Caliph , Umar ;RA: proves it.

    Bukhari :: Book 5 :: Volume 57 :: Hadith 50

    Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun:

    I saw 'Umar bin Al-Khattab a few days before he was stabbed in Medina. He was standing with Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman and 'Uthman bin Hunaif to whom he said, "What have you done? Do you think that you have imposed more taxation on the land (of As-Swad i.e. 'Iraq) than it can bear?" They replied, "We have imposed on it what it can bear because of its great yield." 'Umar again said, "Check whether you have imposed on the land what it can not bear." They said, "No, (we haven't)." 'Umar added, "If Allah should keep me alive I will let the widows of Iraq need no men to support them after me." But only four days had elapsed when he was stabbed (to death ). The day he was stabbed, I was standing and there was nobody between me and him (i.e. Umar) except Abdullah bin 'Abbas. Whenever Umar passed between the two rows, he would say, "Stand in straight lines."

    When he saw no defect (in the rows), he would go forward and start the prayer with Takbir. He would recite Surat Yusuf or An-Nahl or the like in the first Rak'a so that the people may have the time to Join the prayer. As soon as he said Takbir, I heard him saying, "The dog has killed or eaten me," at the time he (i.e. the murderer) stabbed him. A non-Arab infidel proceeded on carrying a double-edged knife and stabbing all the persons he passed by on the right and left (till) he stabbed thirteen persons out of whom seven died. When one of the Muslims saw that, he threw a cloak on him. Realizing that he had been captured, the non-Arab infidel killed himself, 'Umar held the hand of 'Abdur-Rahman bin Auf and let him lead the prayer.

    Those who were standing by the side of 'Umar saw what I saw, but the people who were in the other parts of the Mosque did not see anything, but they lost the voice of 'Umar and they were saying, "Subhan Allah! Subhan Allah! (i.e. Glorified be Allah)." Abdur-Rahman bin Auf led the people a short prayer. When they finished the prayer, 'Umar said, "O Ibn 'Abbas! Find out who attacked me." Ibn 'Abbas kept on looking here and there for a short time and came to say. "The slave of Al Mughira." On that 'Umar said, "The craftsman?" Ibn 'Abbas said, "Yes." 'Umar said, "May Allah curse him. I did not treat him unjustly. All the Praises are for Allah Who has not caused me to die at the hand of a man who claims himself to be a Muslim. No doubt, you and your father (Abbas) used to love to have more non-Arab infidels in Medina." Al-Abbas had the greatest number of slaves. Ibn 'Abbas said to 'Umar. "If you wish, we will do." He meant, "If you wish we will kill them." 'Umar said, "You are mistaken (for you can't kill them) after they have spoken your language, prayed towards your Qibla, and performed Hajj like yours."

    Then Umar was carried to his house, and we went along with him, and the people were as if they had never suffered a calamity before. Some said, "Do not worry (he will be Alright soon)." Some said, "We are afraid (that he will die)." Then an infusion of dates was brought to him and he drank it but it came out (of the wound) of his belly. Then milk was brought to him and he drank it, and it also came out of his belly. The people realized that he would die. We went to him, and the people came, praising him. A young man came saying, "O chief of the believers! Receive the glad tidings from Allah to you due to your company with Allah's Apostle and your superiority in Islam which you know. Then you became the ruler (i.e. Caliph) and you ruled with justice and finally you have been martyred." 'Umar said, "I wish that all these privileges will counterbalance (my shortcomings) so that I will neither lose nor gain anything."

    When the young man turned back to leave, his clothes seemed to be touching the ground. 'Umar said, "Call the young man back to me." (When he came back) 'Umar said, "O son of my brother! Lift your clothes, for this will keep your clothes clean and save you from the Punishment of your Lord." 'Umar further said, "O 'Abdullah bin 'Umar! See how much I am in debt to others." When the debt was checked, it amounted to approximately eighty-six thousand. 'Umar said, "If the property of 'Umar's family covers the debt, then pay the debt thereof; otherwise request it from Bani 'Adi bin Ka'b, and if that too is not sufficient, ask for it from Quraish tribe, and do not ask for it from any one else, and pay this debt on my behalf."

    'Umar then said (to 'Abdullah), "Go to 'Aisha (the mother of the believers) and say: "Umar is paying his salutation to you. But don't say: 'The chief of the believers,' because today I am not the chief of the believers. And say: "Umar bin Al-Khattab asks the permission to be buried with his two companions (i.e. the Prophet, and Abu Bakr)." Abdullah greeted 'Aisha and asked for the permission for entering, and then entered to her and found her sitting and weeping. He said to her, "'Umar bin Al-Khattab is paying his salutations to you, and asks the permission to be buried with his two companions." She said, "I had the idea of having this place for myself, but today I prefer Umar to myself." When he returned it was said (to 'Umar), "'Abdullah bin 'Umar has come." 'Umar said, "Make me sit up." Somebody supported him against his body and 'Umar asked ('Abdullah), "What news do you have?" He said, "O chief of the believers! It is as you wish. She has given the permission." 'Umar said, "Praise be to Allah, there was nothing more important to me than this. So when I die, take me, and greet 'Aisha and say: "Umar bin Al-Khattab asks the permission (to be buried with the Prophet ), and if she gives the permission, bury me there, and if she refuses, then take me to the grave-yard of the Muslims."

    Then Hafsa (the mother of the believers) came with many other women walking with her. When we saw her, we went away. She went in (to 'Umar) and wept there for sometime. When the men asked for permission to enter, she went into another place, and we heard her weeping inside. The people said (to 'Umar), "O chief of the believers! Appoint a successor." Umar said, "I do not find anyone more suitable for the job than the following persons or group whom Allah's Apostle had been pleased with before he died." Then 'Umar mentioned 'Ali, 'Uthman, AzZubair, Talha, Sad and 'Abdur-Rahman (bin Auf) and said, "Abdullah bin 'Umar will be a witness to you, but he will have no share in the rule. His being a witness will compensate him for not sharing the right of ruling. If Sad becomes the ruler, it will be alright: otherwise, whoever becomes the ruler should seek his help, as I have not dismissed him because of disability or dishonesty." 'Umar added, "I recommend that my successor takes care of the early emigrants; to know their rights and protect their honor and sacred things.

    I also recommend that he be kind to the Ansar who had lived in Medina before the emigrants and Belief had entered their hearts before them. I recommend that the (ruler) should accept the good of the righteous among them and excuse their wrong-doers, and I recommend that he should do good to all the people of the towns (Al-Ansar), as they are the protectors of Islam and the source of wealth and the source of annoyance to the enemy. I also recommend that nothing be taken from them except from their surplus with their consent. I also recommend that he do good to the 'Arab bedouin, as they are the origin of the 'Arabs and the material of Islam. He should take from what is inferior, amongst their properties and distribute that to the poor amongst them. I also recommend him concerning Allah's and His Apostle's protectees (i.e. Dhimmis) to fulfill their contracts and to fight for them and not to overburden them with what is beyond their ability." So when 'Umar expired, we carried him out and set out walking. 'Abdullah bin 'Umar greeted ('Aisha) and said, "'Umar bin Al-Khattab asks for the permission." 'Aisha said, "Bring him in." He was brought in and buried beside his two companions. ''

    When he was buried, the group (recommended by 'Umar) held a meeting. Then 'Abdur-Rahman said, " Reduce the candidates for rulership to three of you." Az-Zubair said, "I give up my right to Ali." Talha said, "I give up my right to 'Uthman," Sad, 'I give up my right to 'Abdur-Rahman bin 'Auf." 'Abdur-Rahman then said (to 'Uthman and 'Ali), "Now which of you is willing to give up his right of candidacy to that he may choose the better of the (remaining) two, bearing in mind that Allah and Islam will be his witnesses." So both the sheiks (i.e. 'Uthman and 'Ali) kept silent. 'Abdur-Rahman said, "Will you both leave this matter to me, and I take Allah as my Witness that I will not choose but the better of you?" They said, "Yes." So 'Abdur-Rahman took the hand of one of them (i.e. 'Ali) and said, "You are related to Allah's Apostle and one of the earliest Muslims as you know well. So I ask you by Allah to promise that if I select you as a ruler you will do justice, and if I select 'Uthman as a ruler you will listen to him and obey him." Then he took the other (i.e. 'Uthman) aside and said the same to him. When 'Abdur-Rahman secured (their agreement to) this covenant, he said, "O 'Uthman! Raise your hand." So he (i.e. 'Abdur-Rahman) gave him (i.e. 'Uthman) the solemn pledge, and then 'Ali gave him the pledge of allegiance and then all the (Medina) people gave him the pledge of allegiance.
    Last edited by talibilm09; 07-10-17 at 10:01 AM.
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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Rather than slaughtering people with walls of text, I'm going to keep this brief.

    The ruling is Muslim nations should start wars with the kafir nations wherever they find them, unless they pay the Jizya or convert to Islam. Typical rules of war still apply.

    This is simply because not only have these savages engaged in shirk, they also tend to engage in other horrendous and sickening actions like riba and homosexuality (over 1/3 of Americans have an STD).

    Also, if we don't besiege them, they will besiege us. We can clearly see this today. Muslims gave up offensive Jihad and we suffer because of it.

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dsr478 View Post
    Rather than slaughtering people with walls of text, I'm going to keep this brief.

    The ruling is Muslim nations should start wars with the kafir nations wherever they find them, unless they pay the Jizya or convert to Islam. Typical rules of war still apply.

    This is simply because not only have these savages engaged in shirk, they also tend to engage in other horrendous and sickening actions like riba and homosexuality (over 1/3 of Americans have an STD).

    Also, if we don't besiege them, they will besiege us. We can clearly see this today. Muslims gave up offensive Jihad and we suffer because of it.
    So what are you doing it in ummah ?

    proceed, when are you going to start your offensive ? and how are you going to do it ? at your home first or ?

    Glorious Quran says you must practise what you preach , right ?

    Hope you would follow that too lol

    My Dear Son do you know FIRST, what Jizzya is ??

    have a good read post # 208 here

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...logetics/page6
    Last edited by talibilm09; 07-10-17 at 12:28 PM.
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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Ayah says "fight" not "kill".

    Most books of Fiqh argue against killing Disbelievers for the simple fact that they form the backbone of a healthy Jihad-based economy of buying and selling slaves and putting them to work.

    Slave trade and slave labor is how the US and Europe became the thriving "democracies" we see today.

    The West only abolished slavery after fully establishing their economies and mechanizing them sufficiently so that the previous slave labor force could become the new employees after the industrial revolution.

    Most developing countries do not have sufficiently mechanized or stable economies, so they still have highly stratified societies where the bottom 70% of people are so poor and working conditions so highly managed, that the workers are for all sakes and purposes, under a form of slavery.

    Also, the developed countries, like the US and Europe, still have obscene amounts of sexual exploitation of minors and sex slavery as is well-documented by NGOs.

    Islamic law does not try to put lipstick on a pig and call it "beauty" by another name. Slavery is perfectly legal in Islam and that does not change with time or places.

    Slavery still exists in the West though they have changed some definitions and parameters.

    And while the rest of the world was either ravaged or left behind by the rapid, slave-generated "progress" of the West for hundreds of years, they are now prohibited by the same West from engaging in the same practice that allowed them to "progress" so rapidly.

    Again, read the books of Maqasid ash-Shari'ah, Usul al-Fiqh and Fiqh that discuss in detail the motives behind the rulings derived from these same verses of the Quran and Ahadith. All of them are unanimous in stating that the only people prohibiting from being killed during fighting against the Disbelievers are the women and children. And the women and children are only prohibited because they are the economic backbone of the Jihad-based society that is the obligatory form of society for Believers.

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    So what are you doing it in ummah ?

    proceed, when are you going to start your offensive ? and how are you going to do it ? at your home first or ?

    Glorious Quran says you must practise what you preach , right ?

    Hope you would follow that too lol

    My Dear Son do you know FIRST, what Jizzya is ??

    have a good read post # 208 here

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...logetics/page6
    Snakes like you who deny Jihad are why we are in such a terrible situation.

    This is clean cut, many don't even think polytheists get the opportunity of Jizya so I'm giving you the lenient ruling.

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dsr478 View Post
    Snakes like you who deny Jihad are why we are in such a terrible situation.

    This is clean cut, many don't even think polytheists get the opportunity of Jizya so I'm giving you the lenient ruling.
    This joker spends a lot of time distorting Islam based on his misunderstandings and "study" of the religion through websites and non-Arabic translations.

    The other day, during a class we were going over in Arabic and English, word-for-word, an explanation of the chapter of Jizyah from Ibn Qudaamah's al-Mughni.

    One of the students said: "The Kuffaar would never accept these conditions," i.e. the conditions that Allah AWJ has placed on acceptance of the Jizyah from Ahl al-Kitab and those for whom Jizyah is permitted.

    That student is right- Kuffaar will never accept paying the Jizyah "عن يدٍ وهم صاغرون" unless they are defeated militarily and forced to decide between being destroyed and enslaved or Jizyah.

    It's snakes like this "talib" who chide people into acting upon their principles. Then they are the first to slander these principled actors when imprisoned or slaughtered by the Kuffaar.

    These snakes slander Muslim fighters over the fighting that is happening in the Muslim lands and argue that Muslims shouldn't fight Muslims. They ignore the fact that it is "Muslims" who are preventing Islam from being established in Muslim lands and who are fighting on behalf of the Kuffaar to suppress the establishment of the Shari'ah.

    Those "Muslims" must be fought in order to establish an Islamic state from which the Kuffaar outside the state can be fought effectively.

    What with these snakes running around misinterpreting verses of the Quran and Ahadith and relying on the defense of such falsehood from Youtube Muftis and appointed scholars of Kuffaar-allied governments in Muslim lands, it's no wonder that the online Muslim population is so confused and willing to accept such nonsense.

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dsr478 View Post
    Snakes like you who deny Jihad are why we are in such a terrible situation.

    This is clean cut, many don't even think polytheists get the opportunity of Jizya so I'm giving you the lenient ruling.
    Read the post # 52,# 97 # 121 here and more, my Son and learn ilm first and if you scold some one which he does not deserve it will come back to you.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...r-Wisdom/page3

    Quote Originally Posted by dsr478 View Post
    Rather than slaughtering people with walls of text, I'm going to keep this brief.

    The ruling is Muslim nations should start wars with the kafir nations wherever they find them, unless they pay the Jizya or convert to Islam. Typical rules of war still apply..
    Which Muslim Nation has the balls to attack kafir nation when it even can defend itself . lol , use your brain not your idiotic zeal. Use Hikmah By taking Jizzya (if you are able to take ) are you going to defend you kafir hostages, dhimmis, Mann (cowards) you cant even defend your own nation and you want to protect the kaffirs ?? by taking jizzya.


    First learn eeman and learn to respect elders (am 50 plus) kid. You call yourself muslim but you seem like idiots as these hadith Prophesied I hope and pray you are not from them because say what's the ;last words there are

    BUKHARI,Volume 4, Book 56, Number 808 :
    Narrated by 'Ali I relate the traditions of Allah's Apostle to you for I would rather fall from the sky than attribute something to him falsely. But when I tell you a thing which is between you and me, then no doubt, war is guile. I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "In the last days of this world there will appear some young foolish people who will use (in their claim) the best speech of all people (i.e. the Qur'an) and they will abandon Islam as an arrow going through the game. Their belief will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have practically no belief), so wherever you meet them, kill them, for he who kills them shall get a reward on the Day of Resurrection."
    Last edited by talibilm09; 07-10-17 at 03:19 PM.
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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dsr478 View Post
    Rather than slaughtering people with walls of text, I'm going to keep this brief.

    The ruling is Muslim nations should start wars with the kafir nations wherever they find them, unless they pay the Jizya or convert to Islam. Typical rules of war still apply..
    Which Muslim Nation has the balls to attack kafir nation when it even can defend itself . lol , use your brain not your idiotic zeal. Use Hikmah


    Muslims lost their potency because they left the quran and sunnah and verses like these http://legacy.quran.com/8/60
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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AbuNajm View Post
    This joker spends a lot of time distorting Islam based on his misunderstandings and "study" of the religion through websites and non-Arabic translations.
    .
    Hey , Idiot (jahil) your ilm is highlighted here in this post #10,11

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...lar-Please-jzk

    & here # 21 in this thread is just 1 of many testimonies against you, even some knowleadgeable could not understand you , who you are

    Quote Originally Posted by islammission View Post
    He is an ignorant joke and fraud. How would anyone conflate abused migrant workers in Saudi and actual slaves in the Sharia? It was so stupid it didn't take a while for him to recant, he had to recant it in that thread after everyone was like "what?". Actual tullab have called him out as he is a jahil.

    Not only that he;

    trolls and trolls and trolls

    Drags people who could be doing something beneficial into "discussions" and arguments

    You've seen his character here. Trust me he is not different elsewhere. Ignorance and arrogance are a deadly combination and sadly, often combined.

    His ego tripping is all over the place. As you've seen and as others have seen.
    @AbuNajm

    Ok we will let those 'mistakes go ' since I do not want to down grade you too much LEST you may bring some Qair (benefit) for the ummah with some of your boasted Arabic . i had given you chance to you to prove yourselves but you ran away like a coward and eluded this for nearly two weeks . Reply this (you would have done lot of mashooras by now , its ok allowed )

    # 14 to PROVE YOURSELVES< YOUR OWN CLAIMS IF YOU SPEAK THE TRUTH



    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...-Sheikh-Albani

    Also know that hadith of Hudhaifa ibn al Yaman says that the fitna that will take muslims to hell will start from the Arabic speaking people so beware .Allah aalam

    '' is this fitan of Muslims killing Muslims in the Name of islaM. ??''

    @dsr478

    that Hudhaifa's hadith is here # 121

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...r-Wisdom/page4

    Do Not use your zeal ( iblis seizes son of Adam in Anger n desire) use your hikma and thakwa . is late for me inshallah will wait for your replies

    Just another Q for how many days or years have you prayed your fajr with jamat ? will like you hear on that too.
    Last edited by talibilm09; 07-10-17 at 04:10 PM.
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    Slave of AIIah dsr478's Avatar
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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    Read the post # 52,# 97 # 121 here and more, my Son and learn ilm first and if you scold some one which he does not deserve it will come back to you.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...r-Wisdom/page3



    Which Muslim Nation has the balls to attack kafir nation when it even can defend itself . lol , use your brain not your idiotic zeal. Use Hikmah By taking Jizzya (if you are able to take ) are you going to defend you kafir hostages, dhimmis, Mann (cowards) you cant even defend your own nation and you want to protect the kaffirs ?? by taking jizzya.


    First learn eeman and learn to respect elders (am 50 plus) kid. You call yourself muslim but you seem like idiots as these hadith Prophesied I hope and pray you are not from them because say what's the ;last words there are

    BUKHARI,Volume 4, Book 56, Number 808 :
    Narrated by 'Ali I relate the traditions of Allah's Apostle to you for I would rather fall from the sky than attribute something to him falsely. But when I tell you a thing which is between you and me, then no doubt, war is guile. I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "In the last days of this world there will appear some young foolish people who will use (in their claim) the best speech of all people (i.e. the Qur'an) and they will abandon Islam as an arrow going through the game. Their belief will not go beyond their throats (i.e. they will have practically no belief), so wherever you meet them, kill them, for he who kills them shall get a reward on the Day of Resurrection."
    Your age doesn't make you smarter. It just makes you closer to death, don't get up on your high horse just because you'll probably bite the dust before I do.

    Hahaha lol. Muslim countries have the strength to do Jihad quite easily, first they can start by attacking the false Muslims and kuffar in their own country.

    Afterwards, we can unite and easily defeat neighbouring kuffar and false Muslims in warfare, liberating our brothers and sisters being oppressed in Palestine, Burma and Hindustan. Conquering them might not be easy, so we can just constantly bomb and shoot them until we develop the strength to start conquering again. We could even reopen the slave trade, it wouldn't even be difficult tbh (Africa is poor and easy to attack).

    People like you are just reluctant. We have the capacity to do Jihad.

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    Hey , Idiot (jahil) your ilm is highlighted here in this post #10,11

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...lar-Please-jzk

    & here # 21 in this thread is just 1 of many testimonies against you, even some knowleadgeable could not understand you , who you are


    @AbuNajm

    Ok we will let those 'mistakes go ' since I do not want to down grade you too much LEST you may bring some Qair (benefit) for the ummah with some of your boasted Arabic . i had given you chance to you to prove yourselves but you ran away like a coward and eluded this for nearly two weeks . Reply this (you would have done lot of mashooras by now , its ok allowed )

    # 14 to PROVE YOURSELVES< YOUR OWN CLAIMS IF YOU SPEAK THE TRUTH



    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...-Sheikh-Albani

    Also know that hadith of Hudhaifa ibn al Yaman says that the fitna that will take muslims to hell will start from the Arabic speaking people so beware .Allah aalam

    '' is this fitan of Muslims killing Muslims in the Name of islaM. ??''

    @dsr478

    that Hudhaifa's hadith is here # 121

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...r-Wisdom/page4

    Do Not use your zeal ( iblis seizes son of Adam in Anger n desire) use your hikma and thakwa . is late for me inshallah will wait for your replies

    Just another Q for how many days or years have you prayed your fajr with jamat ? will like you hear on that too.
    Don't call him the Jahil when you deny a basic Islamic principle, mentioned by Ibn Kathir in this tafsir (arguably the greatest tafsir we have).

    That hadith about Arab speaking people could mean many things, but it definitely doesn't mean the people who promote Islamic principles like us.

    We don't support the killing of Muslims. We support the killing of the enemies of Islam, which is anyone who isn't acting upon the Quran and Sunnah, or distorts it.

    We don't wish to kill everyone. If people want peace with Muslims they can pay taxes to us, we will treat them perfectly well if that occurs.

    This isn't a game of who's Salah is better than who's. Stop giving out red herrings in at attempt to improve your image and change the topic of conversation. This is about your denial of a basic Islamic principle.

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dsr478 View Post
    Don't call him the Jahil when you deny a basic Islamic principle, mentioned by Ibn Kathir in this tafsir (arguably the greatest tafsir we have)..
    Sad thing is that he doesn't even remember that I added to him to my "Ignore List" some time back. That is why I don't respond to his posts.

    I saw part of his message in your quote of his post and it made me smile.

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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dsr478 View Post
    Don't call him the Jahil when you deny a basic Islamic principle, mentioned by Ibn Kathir in this tafsir (arguably the greatest tafsir we have).
    Only a Jahil will not call him Jahil for his claims not to spread knowledge just going against all books of islam and his most respected scholar shaik Uthaymeen. Let him & you learn knowledge thats beneficial from the Glorious Quran and hadith (sunnah) and sahabas and tabein and tabe tabeein ONLY about Whom Prophet had guaranteed about , which more than 10 hadith from even different collectors confirm about. Hijacking the words of scholars who came after 600 years ARE NOTHING when compared to Proof From Our Roots. from sunnah hadith, & sahabas & tabeiin. so just dua to Allah to give you knowledge thats beneficial as Hadiths ordered us .

    Can you enlighten us with that dude ''basic islamic principle '' ?

    Eager to learn from you dear
    Last edited by talibilm09; 08-10-17 at 02:08 PM.
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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    Only a Jahil will not call him Jahil for his claims not to spread knowledge just going against all books of islam and his most respected scholar shaik Uthaymeen. Let him & you learn knowledge thats beneficial from the Glorious Quran and hadith (sunnah) and sahabas and tabein and tabe tabeein ONLY about Whom Prophet had guaranteed about , which more than 10 hadith from even different collectors confirm about. Hijacking the words of scholars who came after 600 years ARE NOTHING when compared to Proof From Our Roots. from sunnah hadith, & sahabas & tabeiin. so just dua to Allah to give you knowledge thats beneficial as Hadiths ordered us .

    Can you enlighten us with that dude ''basic islamic principle '' ?

    Eager to learn from you dear
    The basic Islamic principle is offensive Jihad. This is how the Caliphate expanded.

    Without offensive Jihad, Islam would not have spread the way it did. People like you are thick and don't seem to understand that the religion can only be spread to certain people by force.

    Munafiqoon like you are so eager to cosy up to the kuffar, and go against what the Messenger of Allah and the rightly guided Caliphs did.

    Offensive Jihad not only converts people, it also liberates them. My people converted to Islam and we're freed from the disgusting system of Hinduism, which treated anyone who wasn't in the upper class as disposable. If offensive Jihad didn't exist, I'd likely still he the whipping boy of some upper class Hindu dog. I (like many) was freed from this backwards system through offensive Jihad.

  40. #79
    Odan talibilm09's Avatar
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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by dsr478 View Post
    The basic Islamic principle is offensive Jihad. This is how the Caliphate expanded.

    Without offensive Jihad, Islam would not have spread the way it did. People like you are thick and don't seem to understand that the religion can only be spread to certain people by force.

    Munafiqoon like you are so eager to cosy up to the kuffar, and go against what the Messenger of Allah and the rightly guided Caliphs did.

    Offensive Jihad not only converts people, it also liberates them. My people converted to Islam and we're freed from the disgusting system of Hinduism, which treated anyone who wasn't in the upper class as disposable. If offensive Jihad didn't exist, I'd likely still he the whipping boy of some upper class Hindu dog. I (like many) was freed from this backwards system through offensive Jihad.
    Dear let me go to fajar salah first inshallah and give you proofs how right you are and how wrong am I ?

    But proofs from ibn Kathir please ? ( If YOU ARE NOT A LIAR )

    No Muslim refuses the importance of Jihad that will stay in Islam untill the last days as in hadith see my threads i have quoted them many times . But what is Jihad you have to understand it first BY AT LEAST GOING this thread and see how Islam flourished (sura fath & PONDER ) . .and those Jihads what Muslims have done you should understand how they were derived and for what .? Islam was not spread by sword , refer top the old thread here.

    You have to decide first whether you like to listen Allah and :Prophet or your ego & understanding if you want to flourish in Akirah.

    Are you sure you will die as a Muslim or a kaffir ? when you call hypocrite a muslim bro that reverts back to you.

    So i know who you are and also who I am , but i will give you the benefit of doubt that every Muslim deserves (by hadith) and hope you had done you circumcission. by now as i already know you are just a boy who entered Islam by your rhetoric and ilm.
    Last edited by talibilm09; 08-10-17 at 10:17 PM.
    My sect - No Sect

    My Aqeedah - http://legacy.quran.com/112 ( The Aqeedah of Sahabas)

    Just a Muslim

  41. #80
    Slave of AIIah dsr478's Avatar
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    Re: Kill All the Polytheists , Did the Verse 9:5 , say So ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    Dear let me go to fajar salah first inshallah and give you proofs how right you are and how wrong am I ?

    But proofs from ibn Kathir please ? ( If YOU ARE NOT A LIAR )

    No Muslim refuses the importance of Jihad that will stay in Islam untill the last days as in hadith see my threads i have quoted them many times . But what is Jihad you have to understand it first BY AT LEAST GOING this thread and see how Islam flourished (sura fath & PONDER ) . .and those Jihads what Muslims have done you should understand how they were derived and for what .? Islam was not spread by sword , refer top the old thread here.

    You have to decide first whether you like to listen Allah and :Prophet or your ego & understanding if you want to flourish in Akirah.

    Are you sure you will die as a Muslim or a kaffir ? when you call hypocrite a muslim bro that reverts back to you.

    So i know who you are and also who I am , but i will give you the benefit of doubt that every Muslim deserves (by hadith) and hope you had done you circumcission. by now as i already know you are just a boy who entered Islam by your rhetoric and ilm.
    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...k=view&id=2581

    You understand Jihad is important. I was wrong to accuse you of not believing in it, and I apologise for doing so.

 

 

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