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    al-Ash'ari Abu Sulayman's Avatar
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    Exclamation The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than ISIS

    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

    All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the worlds. And may the peace and blessings be upon the Master of all Messengers - our Prophet Muhammad - and upon his family and companions and those who followed them in goodness until the day of judgement.

    To proceed:

    Al-Salamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah,

    I've read some threads on this forum and saw that there are people here who dislike the crimes of IS / ISIS against the Muslims and other innocent people, but at the same time they admire Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) and the original Najdi movement. This shows that there is huge amount of lack of information regarding the original Najdi movement and the level of their fanaticism.
    Know that IS / ISIS has not even committed 10 % of that which the original Najdi / Wahhabi movement committed against the Muslims in the time of the first Saudi state.

    The reason why it's important to know about the history of the original Wahhabiyyah is because it's necessary in order to understand the roots of fanaticism of an organization like ISIS and also in order not to be fooled by the deception, lies and propaganda of the Mashayikh of so called "Salafi" movement, who are exploiting the thirst of young people - especially those living in the West - to learn the religion. The reason why young people in the West are easily fooled by these so called "Salafis" is because of the ignorance regarding the [true] religion (i.e. Islam) that is unfortunately prevelant in the West.

    In this thread I'll insha`Allah try to lessen this lack of information concerning the original Najdi movement.

    Before I begin I would like to make an important note: This thread is NOT for the sake of dicussion and argumentation, but rather in order to inform those brother and sisters who don't know the reality of this movement and to warn them from being influenced by them or their descendants (i.e. the "Salafis"). I would also like to request that no one starts blindly defending Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his original followers in time of the first Saudi state, because I'm quite sure that you haven't read some of the Hardcore-Takfiri books of the original Najdis. All the informations that I will mention are from those books. If you want a proof for anything that I'll mention, then please write a comment here and I'll bring you the relevant qoutes in Arabic [from Najdi books] (and summarize its content).


    These are the most important Najdi sources in order to know the reality of this movement:

    - Tarikh Najd by the Wahhabi historian Hussayn bin Ghannam (d. 1225 AH): It's a history book and the author is a supporter and direct student of Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab.
    - 'Unwan al-Majd fi Tarikh Najd by the Wahhabi historian 'Uthman bin Bishr (d. 1288 AH): It's also a history book and the author lived during the time of the first and the second Saudi state. Similar to the book of Ibn Ghannam it's full of shocking passages where the author proudly reports how they attacked the cities of the Arabian peninsula and the surrounding areas and how "the Muslims" (while refering to themselves, i.e. the Najdis) killed the "Mushrikin" and "Murtadin" (while refering to the Muslims of the whole region!).
    - Mufid al-Mustafid fi Kufri Tarik al-Tawhid by Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH): He wrote this book after he had made Takfir upon a whole town in Najd (i.e. Huraymila`) and tried to justify it. The reason for his Takfir was first and foremost that the people of the city didn't support his unjustified Takfir and call to bloodshed anymore.
    - Al-Rasa`il al-Shakhsiyyah: These are the personal letters that Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab sent to the scholars, people of authority and other imporant people. In these letters you'll see him making all kind of crazy statements like making Takfir upon the scholars of his time and claiming that he alone has understood Tawhid.
    - Al-Durar al-Saniyyah: A compilation of statements from Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his [blind] followers (whom the "Salafis" refer to as "scholars of Najd"). It was meant as a defence of their creed.

    So let's now begin with the important part:


    Who are the Wahhabiyyah and who is their leader?

    The Wahhabiyyah are the followers of Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH).
    He was the son of a Hanbali scholar and was born in al-'Uyayynah, a village in Najd. He started to study Islam and to become a student of knowledge (Talib al-'Ilm), but somehow he developed strange and extreme views.

    He became obsessed with graves:
    He regarded the wrong actions concerning the graves, which according to classical understanding are either forbidden (haram) or disliked (makruh), as Shirk akbar (polytheism). He did not stop here: He even regarded actions which are allowed according to all 4 accepted Madhahib of the Ahl al-Sunnah (like for example the seeking of intercession through the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - (i.e. Tashaffu')) as "Shirk akbar" and regarded it as a nullifier of one's Islam.

    When his father saw that his son had developed these strange views and had deviated from the way of the Ahl al-Sunnah, he disallowed him to spread his wrong views. He feared however that his son would be the cause of great tribulations after his demise and he was indeed right with this feeling.

    When his father died, Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab started to try to spread his new call.
    Before I proceed I would like to show you what this person thought about himself, so that you do not have any doubts regarding his deviance from the way of the Ahl al-Sunnah and the Sawad al-A'dham of this Ummah.


    Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab: "No one knows Tawhid except me"

    He said in one of his letters:

    وأنا أخبركم عن نفسي والله الذي لا إله إلا هو لقد طلبت العلم واعتقد من عرفني أن لي معرفة وأنا ذلك الوقت لا أعرف معنى لا إله إلا الله، ولا أعرف دين الإسلام قبل هذا الخير الذي من الله به. وكذلك مشايخي ما منهم رجل عرف ذلك، فمن زعم من علماء العارض أنه عرف معنى لا إله إلا الله أو عرف معنى الإسلام قبل هذا الوقت أو زعم عن مشايخه أن أحداً عرف ذلك فقد كذب وافترى ولبس على الناس ومدح نفسه بما ليس فيه

    "And I inform you about myself - I swear by Allah whom there is none worthy to worship except Him - I have sought knowledge and those who knew me believed that I had knowledge while I did not know the meaning of La Ilaha illa Allah at that time and did not know the religion of Islam before this grace that Allah favored. As well as my teachers (Mashayikh) no one among them knew that. And if someone from the scholars of al-'Aridh (the lands of Najd and surrounding areas) claims that he knew the meaning of La Ilaha illa Allah or knew the meaning of Islam before this time, or claims on behalf of his teachers that someone from them knew that, then he has lied and said falsehood and deceived the people and praised himself with something he does not possess."

    Source: al-Rasa`il al-Shakhsiyyah and al-Durar al-Saniyyah 10/51

    Just look at the arrogance and narcissm of this person and how he claims that he alone knows Tawhid while accusing the scholars (!) of the whole region of not knowing it. And where did this "knowledge" come from if no one teached it him?
    And you'll be surprised how many times he makes such crazy statements in his letters and how he sometimes lies (like for example by accusing anyone who critises him of "Sabb al-Din"/"cursing the religion") in a very clear way without having any shame whatsoever! May Allah ta'ala give him what he deserves!


    What was his connection to the first Saudi state?

    After he was thrown out of his hometown he met the Amir of al-Dir'iyyah (which is a town in Najd), Muhammad bin Sa'ud (d. 1179 AH), in the year 1157 AH. Ibn Sa'ud accepted his call after Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab had told him that the people of Najd and the surrounding were upon "polytheism" and "ignorance" and after he explained to him his new religion. (Ibn Bishr has mentioned the incident.) Ibn Sa'ud and Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab made an alliance and agreed that the polical power shall be for Ibn Sa'ud (and his sons after him) and that the religious power shall be for Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his new ideas. This was the birth of the first Saudi state and he was the "Mufti" of this [accursed] state.


    The first Saudi state: The worst and most bloodthirsty Khawarij in the history!

    After the alliance was made Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab started throwing around with Fatawa of Takfir and to claim that most people of his time were are upon "Shirk akbar" (polytheism), so that the soldiers of the new born Saudi state could take this as a justifcation to fight the surrounding areas and occupy these regions. The Najdis first started with the towns and villages of Najd and attacked them one after the other.

    But they did not stop with Najd. Soon they started to attack the whole Arabian peninsula. They also attacked all surrounding areas like 'Iraq, Sham, Yemen, 'Oman, etc.
    They did no even shy away from making Takfir against the people of Makkah al-mukarramah and Madinah al-munawwarah and harming them and occupying these blessed cities!!

    If you read how the two Wahhabi historians Ibn Ghannam and Ibn Bishr proudly and without any shame reported these incidents you'll be shocked. They reported how they made Takfir upon whole towns and villages, attacked them and killed them on the streets, the markets and even in their houses. They even killed the Amir of al-'Uyayynah inside the mosque (!!!) after he had prayed the Salat al-Jum'ah. (Not even the houses of Allah had any sanctity for them!)
    They also reported how they burned and destroyed the fields of Muslims (while referring to them as "polytheists" and "apostates"), robbed and stole from them whatever they could take!
    They even reported what a great fear their attacks caused in the heart of the people (this was during their attack on al-Sham) or how the people - innocent Muslim men and women!!! - ran away from them and died from hunger and thirst in the desert (this is what happened to the people of al-Riyadh) or how the people fled to the ocean and drowned in the water (this happened to the people of al-Basrah). They also reported how they made an embargo against different cities which caused the people to die from hunger (this happened to the people Makkah al-mukarramah!).


    And as if all of these crimes are not enough: When they occupied Makkah al-mukarramah they stopped the people from the other Muslim lands from making Hajj for several years, because they regarded all of them to be "polytheists" and "apostates". The first time this happened in the year 1221 AH.

    When their tyranny and bloodshed had reached its peak, the Ottomans - who were the biggest "Mushrikin" (polytheists) upon this earth according the Najdis - decided to stop these criminal Mariqin and Khawarij and to retake every single city that they had occupied. The Ottomans crushed their Khariji state and the first Saudi state ceased to exist by the help of Allah and his permission.


    What is build upon deviation does not lead to anything except more deviation:

    After the first state they had a second state, but the second state was only in Najd and was weak compared to their first state. As for the third state: It's the current Saudi state and it was build upon treason against the whole Ummah of Islam.

    In the time of their first State the Wahhabiyyah were hated by all Muslims of the region (because everyone saw and knew of their crimes) and the people did not accept their views. However when time passed by the people started to forget about them.

    During the third state (i.e. the actual one) the government started to spread the so called "Salafi" Da'wah with huge amounts of money (because there is still an alliance between the Saudi rulers and the Wahhabi Al al-Shaykhs, who are the descendents of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab). This and the widespread ignorance regarding the religion in our times are the main reason why the "Salafis" have spread. It should be noted that the so called "Salafi" Da'wah has nothing to do with the Salaf al-salih or the Ahl al-Sunnah. It's the result of a mix of the ideas of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and some other controversial personalities.

    So beware from whom you take religion and do not let these deceivers influence you.

    And our last call is that all praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds. And may the peace and blessings be upon our Master Muhammad - the seal of the Prophets and Messengers - and upon all of his familiy and companions.

  2. #201
    al-Ash'ari Abu Sulayman's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    If shirk is proven then I don't believe they can be regarded as 'Khawarij'.
    I thought that you regard the people of Makkah as Muslims? Or are you trying to tell me that the people of Makkah and the whole Arabian peninsula were upon Shirk akbar during the time of the first Saudi state?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    Rather, declaring takfeer on polytheists and grave worshippers is quite normal.
    Upon polytheists: Yes. (But this would not make it allowed to kill them, because the reason for fighting is Muqatalah according to the Jumhur of the Fuqaha`.)
    As for the "grave worshippers": What do you intend by that? Let's say a person visits the grave of Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and asks him to pray for the forgiveness of his sins. Has he committed Shirk akbar? If you say yes: According to which logic and according to which Shari'ah?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    I don't know anyone who regards 'them' as absolute authorities so...
    I know such people. They will obviously not admit this with their tongues, but they will blindly accept whatever Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) and his so called "students" said.

  3. #202
    Odan ZeeshanParvez's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Salamun 'alaykum,

    I would like to remind the brothers here that this thread is not about the divine attributes, but rather about the unjustified Takfir and bloodshed of the original Wahhabi movement.

    As for the issue of the divine attributes, then I would like to say the following:

    The classical scholars have mentioned that the Ayat [and Ahadith] concerning the divine attributes are from among the Mutashabihat (unclear/ambiguous verses). That which is obligatory regarding these Ayat [and Ahadith] is to believe in them and that's it. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has not obliged us to know their exact interpretation. The Madhhab of the Salaf al-salih regarding them is to believe in them and to relegate the knowledge of their exact interpretation to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala while being sure that there is nothing unto like Him.

    In the last comments some people have tried to act as if the exact interpretation of these Ayat and Ahadith is known and claimed that Yad definetly means a literal hand when it's used concerning Allah ta'ala.
    It is said to these people:
    The Qur`an was revealed in Arabic and not in English and therefore the English word hand can nowhere be found in the Qur`an. The majority of the scholars did not allow to translate Yad into other languages when it's used concerning Allah ta'ala. The minorty view is that it's allowed, but only if it's not meant as a limb.
    As for your addition of the word literal or real, then this is Bid'ah (innovation). It would have been better for you to stick to the words of Allah ta'ala and not to add anything to it from yourself.
    The interpretation that you've mentioned is definetly not meant, because it goes against Ayat which are Muhkam. When Yad is taken literally it means Jarihah (limb) (look it up in an Arabic dictionary) and to ascribe a limb to Allah ta'ala is Kufr (disbelief).
    If you say "but we do not intend a limb nor do we intend anything with a form and dimensions", then it is said: In that case you shouldn't say a literal hand. The reason why you're using this word is out of Taqlid of the "Salafi" Mashayikh (Taqlid is not allowed in 'Aqidah!) and these "Salafi" Mashayikh do actually intend limbs (Jawarih) or parts (Ajza`/Ab'adh) when they say that "Allah has two real hands" (even thoug they do not use the expression).
    Go and look what Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 AH) said (look for example into his Bayan Talbis al-Jahmiyyah) said (and I'm mentioning him, because "Salafis" love to make Taqlid of all his mistakes) and you'll see that he makes a differentiation between accepting Yad, Wajh, etc. as Ma'ani (which is the Madhhab of a group of scholars from among the Ahl al-Sunnah) and between accepting it as A'yan (which is the Madhhab of Mujassimah (and he is from among them)).

    If you don't unterstand the difference between accepting the Sifat as Ma'ani (معاني) and accepting them as A'yan (أعيان) (and the difference is very huge!), then I would seriously advise you to stop discussing this issue, because it's not allowed to speak about Allah ta'ala without knowledge.

    And now I would like everyone to come back to the real topic. If you want to keep on discussing about the divine attributes, then please do so in another thread (but only if you know what you're saying).
    Are you seriously trying to blame this all on him and are unaware of the history which has existed between the Ash'aris and Hanbalis since long before.

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    al-Ash'ari Abu Sulayman's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    Are you seriously trying to blame this all on him and are unaware of the history which has existed between the Ash'aris and Hanbalis since long before.
    I'm aware that Asha'irah and Hanabilah usually weren't really good friends, but I hope you're also aware of the fact that the Hanabilah were not a monolithic group and had different beliefs.
    And by the way: Just because a Hanbali scholar disagrees regarding specific detailed issues with the Asha'irah it does not mean that he is upon the same belief as that of Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 AH).

  5. #204
    SUFI HANAFI
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    I thought that you regard the people of Makkah as Muslims? Or are you trying to tell me that the people of Makkah and the whole Arabian peninsula were upon Shirk akbar during the time of the first Saudi state?...
    I'm not 'trying' to tell you anything. I said that if shirk is proven then the ones declaring takfeer cannot be considered 'Khawarij'.



    Upon polytheists: Yes. (But this would not make it allowed to kill them, because the reason for fighting is Muqatalah according to the Jumhur of the Fuqaha`.)
    As for that "grave worshippers": What do you intend by that? Let's say a person visits the grave of Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and asks him to pray for the forgiveness of his sins. Has he committed Shirk akbar? If you say yes: According to which logic and according to which Shari'ah?
    As for that specific example then I believe it is haram but whether it falls under shirk akbar then Allahu 'alam. I do find find it problematic and it may possibly be shirk but I would have to refer it someone more knowledgeable.

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    al-Ash'ari Abu Sulayman's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    As for that specific example then I believe it is haram but whether it falls under shirk akbar then Allahu 'alam. I do find find it problematic and it may possibly be shirk but I would have to refer it someone more knowledgeable.
    Okay. Who is the "more knowledgable person" that you want to refer to? Would you accept the ruling that the Jumhur of the Fuqaha` of the 4 Madhahib mentioned?

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Okay. Who is the "more knowledgable person" that you want to refer to? Would you accept the ruling that the Jumhur of the Fuqaha` of the 4 Madhahib mentioned?
    Any of the imams at the masajid I go to first and foremost.

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    al-Ash'ari Abu Sulayman's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    Any of the imams at the masajid I go to first and foremost.
    Let's just for the sake of argument say that he tells you that it's "Shirk akbar" (as an aditional information: according to Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) it's among the issues that nullifies one's Islam!) and tells you that such people are apostates. Would you accept such a ruling even though the Fuqaha` have said otherwise?
    (Go and read the chapter regarding the Manasik of Hajj in some known Fiqh books of the 4 Madhahib and read the passage where the visitation of the grave of Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is mentioned and see for yourself what the Fuqaha` recommended one to do.)

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Let's just for the sake of argument say that he tells you that it's "Shirk akbar" (as an aditional information: according to Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) it's among the issues that nullifies one's Islam!) and tells you that such people are apostates. Would you accept such a ruling even though the Fuqaha` have said otherwise?
    (Go and read the chapter regarding the Manasik of Hajj in some known Fiqh books of the 4 Madhahib and read the passage where the visitation of the grave of Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is mentioned and see for yourself what the Fuqaha` recommended one to do.)
    I'm sure that whatever ruling they gave, it would be explained with evidence as they normally do.

    The question has most likely already been answered but either I've missed it or forgotten.

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    Odan ZeeshanParvez's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    I'm aware that Asha'irah and Hanabilah usually weren't really good friends, but I hope you're also aware of the fact that the Hanabilah were not a monolithic group and had different beliefs.
    And by the way: Just because a Hanbali scholar disagrees regarding specific detailed issues with the Asha'irah it does not mean that he is upon the same belief as that of Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 AH).
    Nopes I am not. With the exception of Ibn Jawzi I do not know too many others. Guess I have to study harder.

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    Odan Abu Kamel's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Let's just for the sake of argument say that he tells you that it's "Shirk akbar" (as an aditional information: according to Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) it's among the issues that nullifies one's Islam!) and tells you that such people are apostates. Would you accept such a ruling even though the Fuqaha` have said otherwise?
    (Go and read the chapter regarding the Manasik of Hajj in some known Fiqh books of the 4 Madhahib and read the passage where the visitation of the grave of Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is mentioned and see for yourself what the Fuqaha` recommended one to do.)
    Are you saying the 4 madhahib advocate while at his grave praying to the Prophet for him to seek Allah's forgiveness for us?
    Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
    " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Salamun 'alaykum,
    (Taqlid is not allowed in 'Aqidah!)
    This is disagreed upon [1]

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    look at all these shameless Mohammed Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (ra) Haters, the more you hate, the more he'll be uplifted in the sight of Allah. He declared kaafir on kaafir, they were not merely visiting graves, but asking for blessings and stuff, This is by default shirk.

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    An-Najdi abufulaans's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Okay. Who is the "more knowledgable person" that you want to refer to? Would you accept the ruling that the Jumhur of the Fuqaha` of the 4 Madhahib mentioned?
    If you read the beggining pages of tareekh al najd then you will find that according the them the people were upon clear shirk Akbar, we are talking about asking dead people for help, making sujood to graves
    They were thus fought as mushrikeen,
    If what they said is true then they were upon clear shirk

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Kamel View Post
    Are you saying the 4 madhahib advocate while at his grave praying to the Prophet for him to seek Allah's forgiveness for us?
    I think he is referring to what the likes of Al-Nawawi, Al-Qurtubi, etc. have drawn evidence from, namely حديث العتبي

    Based on it they say that when you visit the grave of the Messenger of Allah () you should say:

    وقد جئتك مستغفرا من ذنبي مستشفعا بك إلى ربي

    I know Subki really promoted this. Al-Nawawi used this Hadith in his book الأذكار and Al-Qurtubi has mentioned it in his Tafsir [1]

    Abu Ishaaq Burhaan Al-Deen Muhammad bin Abd Allah Al-Hanbali seems to mention the incident in his book [2]. It would be nice to say what the OP has to say about this. He seems to pay this forum a visit after a long time though.

    Of course, the authenticity of the Hadith all of them use does not seem to reach the level of being used for evidence.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    I think he is referring to what the likes of Al-Nawawi, Al-Qurtubi, etc. have drawn evidence from, namely حديث العتبي

    Based on it they say that when you visit the grave of the Messenger of Allah () you should say:

    وقد جئتك مستغفرا من ذنبي مستشفعا بك إلى ربي

    I know Subki really promoted this. Al-Nawawi used this Hadith in his book الأذكار and Al-Qurtubi has mentioned it in his Tafsir [1]

    Abu Ishaaq Burhaan Al-Deen Muhammad bin Abd Allah Al-Hanbali seems to mention the incident in his book [2]. It would be nice to say what the OP has to say about this. He seems to pay this forum a visit after a long time though.

    Of course, the authenticity of the Hadith all of them use does not seem to reach the level of being used for evidence.
    don't be nice brother, say fabricated.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    The reason they didn't say take the zahir is because it was simple and no one at the time understood it wrong, later however people deviated thus the need for the term zahir was introduced by the scholars,
    I know what you believe, but you cannot prove it.

    Ibn Rajab was from the Khalaf, why didn't he say the Salafus Saleh affirmed the literal meaning?

    Ibn Rajab al Hanbali said, “The correct position in all of this is the position of the Righteous Salaf in their leaving the verses and hadiths concerning the Attributes as they came without explanation, asking how or likening them to creation. There is nothing at all contravening this position that is authentically reported from them, especially Imam Ahmad. Neither is anything reported from them proving that they probed into their meanings or propounded analogies and similitudes for them. This, even though there some who lived close to the time of Ahmad who did do some of this, following the way of Maqqatil, but they are not to be followed in this. Those who should be followed are the Imam of Islam such as ibn al Mubarak, Malik, Thawri, Awza’I, Shafi, Ahmad, Ishaq, Abu ‘Ubaid and their likes.” (Fadhl ‘Ilm al-Salaf ‘ala ‘Ilm al-Khalaf )

    Ibn Qudamah was from the Khalaf, why didn't he say the Salafus Saleh affirmed the literal meaning?

    Ibn Qudamah said, "The madhab of the Salaf, may Allah have mercy on them, is to believe in the attributes of Allah, Exalted in Highness, and His names by which He described Himself, in the verses of His revelation and upon the tongue of the His Messenger without adding to or subtracting from them; without transgressing (limits) against them, without explaining them (tafsir) and not interpreting them (tawil) in a way that contradicts their apparent meanings." (Dhamm al Tawil)

    And both of these scholars came after Ibn Jawzi who criticized the Hanbalis for taking the literal meaning of these unclear verses and hadiths concerning Allah.

    Imam Ibn Jawzi said, "The second error is that they (The dissenters of the Hanbali madhab) said, "These hadiths are amongst the ambiguous and none know the true meaning except Allah, Exalted is He." However at the same time they state, "We bear and understand them according to their literal meaning." How astonishing! A phrase whose meaning only Allah knows (for certain), what literal meaning can it then have? What then are the literal meanings of al istiwa (establishment) except "sitting" and al nuzul (descending) anything but moving from one place to another.?" (Daf Shubah al Tashbih bi Akaff al Tanzih -Rebuttal of the Insinuations of Anthropomorphism at the Hand of Divine Transcendence.)


    I would say there is a need to clarify this point in history for both of these scholars, but they didn't.


    And Allah knows best.
    Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 29-11-15 at 05:45 PM.
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    The reason they didn't say take the zahir is because it was simple and no one at the time understood it wrong, later however people deviated thus the need for the term zahir was introduced by the scholars,
    Exactly what I tried to say with my car example.
    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Fais View Post
    Cool story.
    I know some people become incredibly shocked when they realize how crystal clear the aqeedah of the Salaf is that they are can't believe it and call it a 'cool story'
    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    Exactly what I tried to say with my car example.
    I understand what you believe, but you cannot prove it.

    You cannot prove it was the belief of the Salafus Saleh. You people who require so much proof from us for group dhikr, dhikr of the name of Allah and declare us Ahlul BIdah wal Hawaa etc, when we don't prove it to your standard, yet you cannot produce a single clear proof for this point in Aqida, a science more important then fiqh.

    You give us such a high standard for proving group dhikr, that when same standard is applied for your point in Aqida regarding the dhahir, you guys unable to live up to that standard.

    I don't get it.
    Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 29-11-15 at 11:54 PM.
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
    I understand what you believe, but you cannot prove it.

    You cannot prove it was the belief of the Salafus Saleh. You people who require so much proof from us for group dhikr, dhikr of the name of Allah and declare us Ahlul BIdah wal Hawaa and Zindiq etc, when we don't prove it to your standard, yet you cannot produce a single clear proof for this point in Aqida, a science more important then fiqh.

    You give us such a high standard for proving group dhikr, that when same standard is applied for your point in Aqida regarding the dhahir, you guys unable to live up to that standard.

    I don't get it.
    Who called you guys zindeeq? Why do you love slandering people?

    I don't get it.
    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    Who called you guys zindeeq? Why do you love slandering people?

    I don't get it.

    I've been called a zindiq by a Salafi, but I will look to see if any of your scholars have called us such. If I cannot find any of your scholars calling us this, I will apologize.
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
    I've been called a zindiq by a Salafi, but I will look to see if any of your scholars have called us such. If I cannot find any of your scholars calling us this, I will apologize.
    For the umpeenth time, I am not, not, not, not, NOT a Salafi.
    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    For the umpeenth time, I am not, not, not, not, NOT a Salafi.
    I don't consider myself sufi, yet people call me sufi all the time.
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
    I don't consider myself sufi, yet people call me sufi all the time.
    You said you are Shadili. Shadili is a sufi tariqah, so you're automatically a Sufi.
    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    You said you are Shadili. Shadili is a sufi tariqah, so you're automatically a Sufi.
    You argue with the tongue of the Salafis, you are automatically a salafi.
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
    You argue with the tongue of the Salafis, you are automatically a salafi.
    I don't argue with the tongue of Salafis, unless you can prove otherwise. Actually I abhor many Salafis like Rabee Al madkhali worshippers.
    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    Who called you guys zindeeq? Why do you love slandering people?

    I don't get it.
    I stand corrected. I think the confusion is how people translate Bidah, some translate it as innovation and some translate it as heresy. And thus an innovator can be a heretic, from that point of view. At the same time people translate zindiq as heretic. I apologize.
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    I don't argue with the tongue of Salafis, unless you can prove otherwise. Actually I abhor many Salafis like Rabee Al madkhali worshippers.
    Rabee al madkhali is a type of Salafi. Salafism is not a monolith.
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
    Rabee al madkhali is a type of Salafi. Salafism is not a monolith.
    I know for certain there is not a single Salafi group that will accept me as a Salafi.
    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    Of coure they are, common sense.
    So you'd be able to see these hands?
    If you were in the clouds, Allah would raise us to you or lower you to us for battle.

    said this to the Byzantine troops when they retreated from the battle field to the fortified town of Chalcis.

    - Khalid ibn Walid

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    I know some people become incredibly shocked when they realize how crystal clear the aqeedah of the Salaf is that they are can't believe it and call it a 'cool story'
    Like I said, cool story.
    If you were in the clouds, Allah would raise us to you or lower you to us for battle.

    said this to the Byzantine troops when they retreated from the battle field to the fortified town of Chalcis.

    - Khalid ibn Walid

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    You said you are Shadili. Shadili is a sufi tariqah, so you're automatically a Sufi.
    He's an on/off 'Ashari' too.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    Nopes I am not. With the exception of Ibn Jawzi I do not know too many others. Guess I have to study harder.
    Imam Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 596 AH) supported Tafwidh and Ta`wil, while most Hanabilah were Mufawwidhah (which is good) and many of them were quite strictly against Ta`wil. Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 AH) was not just against Ta`wil, but even against Tafwidh and called it as "one of the worst statements of the people of innovation and atheism". The ironic thing here is that relegating the knowledge of the exact interpretation of the knowledge regarding the Ayat of the Sifat to Allah ta'ala (i.e. Tafwidh) is the Madhhab of the [majority of the] Salaf al-salih not just according to the Asha'irah, but also according to the Hanabilah!
    Salih bin 'Abd al-'Aziz Al al-Shaykh, one of the Mashayikh of the "Salafis", even admitted in his Sharh al-'Aqidah al-Wasitiyyah that most of the Hanbali Mashayikh of Ibn Taymiyyah were from among the people of Tafwidh.
    Ibn Taymiyyah believed that Allah ta'ala is subject to changes, while many Hanabilah (even some of the Mushabbihah from among them!) were against this false belief.
    Ibn Taymiyyah also believed that Allah ta'ala has Sifat 'Ayniyyah (i.e. that which we call as limbs or parts), while many Hanabilah believed that Allah ta'ala is Exalted above being a body or having parts/limbs, etc and would only affirm Sifat as Ma'ani.
    Ibn Taymiyah believed that there is no first creation, but acknowledged that every individual creation has a beginning (this is a modified version of the statement of the Falasifah, who said that the universe is eternal). I do not know of any Hanbali scholar who held such a false position before him.

    There are more such kind of examples, but the above should be enough.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Kamel View Post
    Are you saying the 4 madhahib advocate while at his grave praying to the Prophet for him to seek Allah's forgiveness for us?
    I did not say praying, but rather asking. Praying is connected with the belief of divinity/lordship of the one from whom one asks, while asking is simply asking.
    And yes the scholars of the 4 Madhahib did not see anything wrong with seeking intercession with the best of creation - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - unto one's Lord, because there is nothing wrong in doing that.
    If it was allowed to ask our beloved Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - during his lifetime for his intercession and if it's allowed to do so on the day of judgement (refer to Sahih al-Bukhari), then why should it be wrong to do so in the time between? And I'll repeat my question from a previous post: According to which Shari'ah and which logic is it Shirk to ask the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - to supplicate for one?

    This a quote from the Hanafi Faqih 'Abdullah bin Mahmud bin Mawdud al-Mawsili (d. 683 AH) [in the context of the Ziyarah]:

    وقد قال الله تعالى : ( ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاءوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا اللهتوابا رحيما ) وقد جئناك ظالمين لأنفسنا ، مستغفرين لذنوبنا ، فاشفع لنا إلى ربك ، وأسأله أن يميتناعلى سنتك ، وأن يحشرنا في زمرتك ، وأن يوردنا حوضك ، وأن يسقينا كأسك غير خزايا ولا نادمين، الشفاعة الشفاعة يا رسول الله ، يقولها ثلاثا : ( ربنا اغفر لنا ولإخواننا الذين سبقونا بالإيمان )الآية .ويبلغه سلام من أوصاه فيقول : السلام عليك يا رسول الله من فلان بن فلان ، يستشفع بك إلىربك فاشفع له ولجميع المسلمين


    “Allah ta’ala says: { If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah’s forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful } [4:64].
    So we’ve come to you, having wronged ourselves and asking [Allah] for forgiveness regarding our sins, so intercede for us to your Lord and ask Him that He lets us die upon your Sunnah, and that He gathers us [on the day of reckoning] among your group, and allows us to get to your Hawdh and drink from your bowl without disgrace or regret.
    Intercession intercession, o Messenger of Allah (al-Shafa'ah al-Shafa'ah, ya Rasulallah) – he (the visitor) should say this thrice -, { “Our Lord, forgive us and those of our brothers who preceded us in faith” } [59:10] [till the end of] the Ayah.
    [Then] he should deliver the greeting of those who have told him to do so by saying: ‘Peace be upon you, o Messenger of Allah, from Fulan bin Fulan, he seeks intercession through you unto your Lord, so intercede for him and for all believers‘.”


    Source:
    al-Ikhtiyar li Ta’lil al-Mukhtar

    And you will find the recommendation of seeking intercession through the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - during the visitation of his blessed grave in most major Fiqh books of the 4 Madhahib.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Some questions more out of curiosity than anything else.

    If someone was to ask rasoolullaah at his grave to make dua, how would you ask?

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohamed Mifxal View Post
    look at all these shameless Mohammed Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (ra) Haters, the more you hate, the more he'll be uplifted in the sight of Allah.
    I don't think that one will be uplifted for trying to replace real Tawhid with a fake version of Tawhid. And I also don't think that calling for the mass-slaughter of other Muslims is something good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohamed Mifxal View Post
    He declared kaafir on kaafir
    According to the original Najdi movement most of you people who are blindly defending them would also be not from among the people of Islam. If you really want to be regarded as Muslims according to the standards of the original Wahhabi movement you'll need to make Takfir upon the Ottomans, the people of Makkah, your own parents (yes this crazyness is indeed mentioned in al-Durar al-Saniyyah!!!) and many many other Muslims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mohamed Mifxal View Post
    lthey were not merely visiting graves, but asking for blessings and stuff, This is by default shirk.
    So seeking blessings by touching the Hajar al-aswad is okay and seeking blessings by drinking from the Zamzam water is also okay, but the moment one seeks blessings through the Master of the first and the last - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - one becomes a Mushrik? Do you actually realize that what you're saying?

  38. #237
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    I don't think that one will be uplifted for trying to replace real Tawhid with a fake version of Tawhid. And I also don't think that calling for the mass-slaughter of other Muslims is something good.



    According to the original Najdi movement most of you people who are blindly defending them would also be not from among the people of Islam. If you really want to be regarded as Muslims according to the standards of the original Wahhabi movement you'll need to make Takfir upon the Ottomans, the people of Makkah, your own parents (yes this crazyness is indeed mentioned in al-Durar al-Saniyyah!!!) and many many other Muslims.



    So seeking blessings by touching the Hajar al-aswad is okay and seeking blessings by drinking from the Zamzam water is also okay, but the moment one seeks blessings through the Master of the first and the last - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - one becomes a Mushrik? Do you actually realize that what you're saying?
    ok, enough of your trolling

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    I don't think that one will be uplifted for trying to replace real Tawhid with a fake version of Tawhid. And I also don't think that calling for the mass-slaughter of other Muslims is something good.



    According to the original Najdi movement most of you people who are blindly defending them would also be not from among the people of Islam. If you really want to be regarded as Muslims according to the standards of the original Wahhabi movement you'll need to make Takfir upon the Ottomans, the people of Makkah, your own parents (yes this crazyness is indeed mentioned in al-Durar al-Saniyyah!!!) and many many other Muslims.



    So seeking blessings by touching the Hajar al-aswad is okay and seeking blessings by drinking from the Zamzam water is also okay, but the moment one seeks blessings through the Master of the first and the last - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - one becomes a Mushrik? Do you actually realize that what you're saying?
    Your seeking blessing from the almighty not from the rock
    And if your parent are engaged in mushrikeen acts and u recanise it the call a spade a spade it shirik
    Last edited by Bilal el; 30-11-15 at 07:07 AM.

  40. #239
    Odan Abu Kamel's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Sheikh `Abd al-Rahmân al-Barrâk said "It is polytheism to make supplications to the Prophet (peace be upon him) or a pious person and ask him for things that are needed. This includes requesting them to offer supplications on your behalf. This is unlawful and it is pure polytheism.*

    Seeking the supplications of living pious people on your behalf is allowed, such as to approach a pious man – during his life time but not after his death – and ask him to pray for you. The Companions used to ask the Prophet (peace be upon him) to make supplications for them.*

    However, it is not permissible to seek supplications from those who have died or from those who are not present. The Companions stopped asking the Prophet (peace be upon him) to make supplications on their behalf after the Prophet (peace be upon him) had died. In the year of famine, `Umar said the following: “O, Lord, we were soliciting you by our Prophet and you would answer us and let us have rain, now we are soliciting you by the uncle of our Prophet, so we ask you to answer us.” Then he asked the Prophet’s uncle to supplicate on their behalf.

    *The Companions clearly made a distinction between the living and the dead in this matter.

    *Asking for the Prophet's intercession on the Day of Judgment directly from the Prophet (peace be upon him) in our supplications is an innovation.*

    The Companions used to ask the Prophet (peace be upon him) to make supplications for them when he was alive. Even then, their asking him for his intercession was never once cited.*

    This is actually the Prophet's status on the Day of Judgment which is solely for him. A person may not use the intercession of the Prophet (peace be upon him) or other pious people because the intercession of person is an honor bestowed upon him by Allah on the Day of Judgment.*

    Asking for intercession is not akin to polytheism, but is an innovation in religion. What is polytheism is to make supplications to the Prophet (peace be upon him) or a pious person and ask them for things that are needed or for their supplications. This is, as we said before, pure polytheism."

  41. #240
    Odan ZeeshanParvez's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
    Linguistically speaking, the literal meaning of hand cannot be a sifat (an Attribute), in Arabic hand is referred to as a naat (trait), not a sifat (attribute).

    "Indeed, We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an that you might understand." (12:2)

    It is one of the points that Ibn Jawzi was criticizing the Hanbalis of his time, just because a sentence is in a possessive form (the hand of), doesn't mean it is an attribute (sifat).

    Ibn Jawzi said, "And those writers who I have mentioned have erred in seven matters. The first of them is that they called the "reports" (the narrations) 'Attributes,' when they are merely annexations/possessive forms. And not every possessive form is an attribute. For Allah, High is He has said, "And I have blown into him from My Spirit' (Al Hijr:29). And Allah doesn't have an attribute known as a 'spirit." So those who have called 'the possessive form' (idafa) 'an attribute' are guilty of innovation."

    The linguist, Thalab says, "A Na't is a description given to a specfic part of the body like the word 'lame' (araj). A 'Sifa' (attribute) is for non-specificity (umoon) , like the word 'magnificent' (azeem) and 'generous' (kareem). So Allah is described with a 'sifa". But He is not described with a 'na't'." (Taaj al Aroos)

    And Allah knows best.
    So what exactly was Ibn Battaal, who Ibn Hajar quotes in Fath, saying when he said:

    في هذه الآية إثبات يدين لله ، وهما صفتان من صفات ذاته وليستا بجارحتين خلافا للمشبهة من المثبتة ، وللجهمية من المعطلة

    In this Verse is affirmation of Two Hands belonging to Allah and both [of them] are two Sifah from the Sifaat of His Dhaat and they both are not limbs [which is] opposed to the Mushabbiha and the Jahmiyyah...[1]

 

 

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