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  1. #1
    al-Ash'ari Abu Sulayman's Avatar
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    Exclamation The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than ISIS

    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

    All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the worlds. And may the peace and blessings be upon the Master of all Messengers - our Prophet Muhammad - and upon his family and companions and those who followed them in goodness until the day of judgement.

    To proceed:

    Al-Salamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah,

    I've read some threads on this forum and saw that there are people here who dislike the crimes of IS / ISIS against the Muslims and other innocent people, but at the same time they admire Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) and the original Najdi movement. This shows that there is huge amount of lack of information regarding the original Najdi movement and the level of their fanaticism.
    Know that IS / ISIS has not even committed 10 % of that which the original Najdi / Wahhabi movement committed against the Muslims in the time of the first Saudi state.

    The reason why it's important to know about the history of the original Wahhabiyyah is because it's necessary in order to understand the roots of fanaticism of an organization like ISIS and also in order not to be fooled by the deception, lies and propaganda of the Mashayikh of so called "Salafi" movement, who are exploiting the thirst of young people - especially those living in the West - to learn the religion. The reason why young people in the West are easily fooled by these so called "Salafis" is because of the ignorance regarding the [true] religion (i.e. Islam) that is unfortunately prevelant in the West.

    In this thread I'll insha`Allah try to lessen this lack of information concerning the original Najdi movement.

    Before I begin I would like to make an important note: This thread is NOT for the sake of dicussion and argumentation, but rather in order to inform those brother and sisters who don't know the reality of this movement and to warn them from being influenced by them or their descendants (i.e. the "Salafis"). I would also like to request that no one starts blindly defending Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his original followers in time of the first Saudi state, because I'm quite sure that you haven't read some of the Hardcore-Takfiri books of the original Najdis. All the informations that I will mention are from those books. If you want a proof for anything that I'll mention, then please write a comment here and I'll bring you the relevant qoutes in Arabic [from Najdi books] (and summarize its content).


    These are the most important Najdi sources in order to know the reality of this movement:

    - Tarikh Najd by the Wahhabi historian Hussayn bin Ghannam (d. 1225 AH): It's a history book and the author is a supporter and direct student of Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab.
    - 'Unwan al-Majd fi Tarikh Najd by the Wahhabi historian 'Uthman bin Bishr (d. 1288 AH): It's also a history book and the author lived during the time of the first and the second Saudi state. Similar to the book of Ibn Ghannam it's full of shocking passages where the author proudly reports how they attacked the cities of the Arabian peninsula and the surrounding areas and how "the Muslims" (while refering to themselves, i.e. the Najdis) killed the "Mushrikin" and "Murtadin" (while refering to the Muslims of the whole region!).
    - Mufid al-Mustafid fi Kufri Tarik al-Tawhid by Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH): He wrote this book after he had made Takfir upon a whole town in Najd (i.e. Huraymila`) and tried to justify it. The reason for his Takfir was first and foremost that the people of the city didn't support his unjustified Takfir and call to bloodshed anymore.
    - Al-Rasa`il al-Shakhsiyyah: These are the personal letters that Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab sent to the scholars, people of authority and other imporant people. In these letters you'll see him making all kind of crazy statements like making Takfir upon the scholars of his time and claiming that he alone has understood Tawhid.
    - Al-Durar al-Saniyyah: A compilation of statements from Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his [blind] followers (whom the "Salafis" refer to as "scholars of Najd"). It was meant as a defence of their creed.

    So let's now begin with the important part:


    Who are the Wahhabiyyah and who is their leader?

    The Wahhabiyyah are the followers of Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH).
    He was the son of a Hanbali scholar and was born in al-'Uyayynah, a village in Najd. He started to study Islam and to become a student of knowledge (Talib al-'Ilm), but somehow he developed strange and extreme views.

    He became obsessed with graves:
    He regarded the wrong actions concerning the graves, which according to classical understanding are either forbidden (haram) or disliked (makruh), as Shirk akbar (polytheism). He did not stop here: He even regarded actions which are allowed according to all 4 accepted Madhahib of the Ahl al-Sunnah (like for example the seeking of intercession through the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - (i.e. Tashaffu')) as "Shirk akbar" and regarded it as a nullifier of one's Islam.

    When his father saw that his son had developed these strange views and had deviated from the way of the Ahl al-Sunnah, he disallowed him to spread his wrong views. He feared however that his son would be the cause of great tribulations after his demise and he was indeed right with this feeling.

    When his father died, Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab started to try to spread his new call.
    Before I proceed I would like to show you what this person thought about himself, so that you do not have any doubts regarding his deviance from the way of the Ahl al-Sunnah and the Sawad al-A'dham of this Ummah.


    Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab: "No one knows Tawhid except me"

    He said in one of his letters:

    وأنا أخبركم عن نفسي والله الذي لا إله إلا هو لقد طلبت العلم واعتقد من عرفني أن لي معرفة وأنا ذلك الوقت لا أعرف معنى لا إله إلا الله، ولا أعرف دين الإسلام قبل هذا الخير الذي من الله به. وكذلك مشايخي ما منهم رجل عرف ذلك، فمن زعم من علماء العارض أنه عرف معنى لا إله إلا الله أو عرف معنى الإسلام قبل هذا الوقت أو زعم عن مشايخه أن أحداً عرف ذلك فقد كذب وافترى ولبس على الناس ومدح نفسه بما ليس فيه

    "And I inform you about myself - I swear by Allah whom there is none worthy to worship except Him - I have sought knowledge and those who knew me believed that I had knowledge while I did not know the meaning of La Ilaha illa Allah at that time and did not know the religion of Islam before this grace that Allah favored. As well as my teachers (Mashayikh) no one among them knew that. And if someone from the scholars of al-'Aridh (the lands of Najd and surrounding areas) claims that he knew the meaning of La Ilaha illa Allah or knew the meaning of Islam before this time, or claims on behalf of his teachers that someone from them knew that, then he has lied and said falsehood and deceived the people and praised himself with something he does not possess."

    Source: al-Rasa`il al-Shakhsiyyah and al-Durar al-Saniyyah 10/51

    Just look at the arrogance and narcissm of this person and how he claims that he alone knows Tawhid while accusing the scholars (!) of the whole region of not knowing it. And where did this "knowledge" come from if no one teached it him?
    And you'll be surprised how many times he makes such crazy statements in his letters and how he sometimes lies (like for example by accusing anyone who critises him of "Sabb al-Din"/"cursing the religion") in a very clear way without having any shame whatsoever! May Allah ta'ala give him what he deserves!


    What was his connection to the first Saudi state?

    After he was thrown out of his hometown he met the Amir of al-Dir'iyyah (which is a town in Najd), Muhammad bin Sa'ud (d. 1179 AH), in the year 1157 AH. Ibn Sa'ud accepted his call after Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab had told him that the people of Najd and the surrounding were upon "polytheism" and "ignorance" and after he explained to him his new religion. (Ibn Bishr has mentioned the incident.) Ibn Sa'ud and Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab made an alliance and agreed that the polical power shall be for Ibn Sa'ud (and his sons after him) and that the religious power shall be for Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his new ideas. This was the birth of the first Saudi state and he was the "Mufti" of this [accursed] state.


    The first Saudi state: The worst and most bloodthirsty Khawarij in the history!

    After the alliance was made Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab started throwing around with Fatawa of Takfir and to claim that most people of his time were are upon "Shirk akbar" (polytheism), so that the soldiers of the new born Saudi state could take this as a justifcation to fight the surrounding areas and occupy these regions. The Najdis first started with the towns and villages of Najd and attacked them one after the other.

    But they did not stop with Najd. Soon they started to attack the whole Arabian peninsula. They also attacked all surrounding areas like 'Iraq, Sham, Yemen, 'Oman, etc.
    They did no even shy away from making Takfir against the people of Makkah al-mukarramah and Madinah al-munawwarah and harming them and occupying these blessed cities!!

    If you read how the two Wahhabi historians Ibn Ghannam and Ibn Bishr proudly and without any shame reported these incidents you'll be shocked. They reported how they made Takfir upon whole towns and villages, attacked them and killed them on the streets, the markets and even in their houses. They even killed the Amir of al-'Uyayynah inside the mosque (!!!) after he had prayed the Salat al-Jum'ah. (Not even the houses of Allah had any sanctity for them!)
    They also reported how they burned and destroyed the fields of Muslims (while referring to them as "polytheists" and "apostates"), robbed and stole from them whatever they could take!
    They even reported what a great fear their attacks caused in the heart of the people (this was during their attack on al-Sham) or how the people - innocent Muslim men and women!!! - ran away from them and died from hunger and thirst in the desert (this is what happened to the people of al-Riyadh) or how the people fled to the ocean and drowned in the water (this happened to the people of al-Basrah). They also reported how they made an embargo against different cities which caused the people to die from hunger (this happened to the people Makkah al-mukarramah!).


    And as if all of these crimes are not enough: When they occupied Makkah al-mukarramah they stopped the people from the other Muslim lands from making Hajj for several years, because they regarded all of them to be "polytheists" and "apostates". The first time this happened in the year 1221 AH.

    When their tyranny and bloodshed had reached its peak, the Ottomans - who were the biggest "Mushrikin" (polytheists) upon this earth according the Najdis - decided to stop these criminal Mariqin and Khawarij and to retake every single city that they had occupied. The Ottomans crushed their Khariji state and the first Saudi state ceased to exist by the help of Allah and his permission.


    What is build upon deviation does not lead to anything except more deviation:

    After the first state they had a second state, but the second state was only in Najd and was weak compared to their first state. As for the third state: It's the current Saudi state and it was build upon treason against the whole Ummah of Islam.

    In the time of their first State the Wahhabiyyah were hated by all Muslims of the region (because everyone saw and knew of their crimes) and the people did not accept their views. However when time passed by the people started to forget about them.

    During the third state (i.e. the actual one) the government started to spread the so called "Salafi" Da'wah with huge amounts of money (because there is still an alliance between the Saudi rulers and the Wahhabi Al al-Shaykhs, who are the descendents of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab). This and the widespread ignorance regarding the religion in our times are the main reason why the "Salafis" have spread. It should be noted that the so called "Salafi" Da'wah has nothing to do with the Salaf al-salih or the Ahl al-Sunnah. It's the result of a mix of the ideas of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and some other controversial personalities.

    So beware from whom you take religion and do not let these deceivers influence you.

    And our last call is that all praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds. And may the peace and blessings be upon our Master Muhammad - the seal of the Prophets and Messengers - and upon all of his familiy and companions.

  2. #161
    صلى الله على محمد budi.sudaryo's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
    Can you provide the source of these hadiths?
    http://www.answering - islam.org/authors/rogers/allahs_hands.html
    Last edited by budi.sudaryo; 27-11-15 at 10:19 AM.
    I'm on a strict time management regiment and have to limit my time online. Therefore I have to reply selectively. Please don't be offended if I ignore your questions.

  3. #162
    New Grand Mufti of Ummah Fais's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    This is the problem
    If you ask them 'Do you believe Allah hears' they will say yes without hesitation, though we all know the creation hears aswell, Allah's hearing is not like ours but what is understood is still clear
    Then if you ask them 'Do you believe Allah has a hand' and they will make a number of points before they give their answer, they themselves have decided what likening Allah to his creation is, they have no evidence, of course Allah's hand is not like ours but the meaning is understood
    Because I don't think they are the same.

    Hearing is something you do. A hand isn't something you do, it's an extension to your arm that you use.

    If you are going to ask "Do you believe Allah has a hand?" ... The correct question regarding hearing is, "Do you believe Allah has ears?"
    If you were in the clouds, Allah would raise us to you or lower you to us for battle.

    said this to the Byzantine troops when they retreated from the battle field to the fortified town of Chalcis.

    - Khalid ibn Walid

  4. #163
    An-Najdi abufulaans's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Fais View Post
    Because I don't think they are the same.

    Hearing is something you do. A hand isn't something you do, it's an extension to your arm that you use.

    If you are going to ask "Do you believe Allah has a hand?" ... The correct question regarding hearing is, "Do you believe Allah has ears?"
    No akhi what is this
    Allah says he hears so we say he hears, Allah says he has hands so we say he has hands, we accept them both in the same way
    Allah does not say he has ears
    Again look, you yourself is deciding what likening Allah to his creation is

  5. #164
    Odan
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Fais View Post
    Because I don't think they are the same.

    Hearing is something you do. A hand isn't something you do, it's an extension to your arm that you use.

    If you are going to ask "Do you believe Allah has a hand?" ... The correct question regarding hearing is, "Do you believe Allah has ears?"
    You are right they are not the same.

    In regards to hand, every linguistic literal meaning of hand, the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah (Ashari, Maturidi, and Hanbalis) have rejected for Allah, whether hand means limb or part.

    However the meaning of hearing and seeing that the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah have affirmed for Allah is perception (idrak). The proof that idrak can be attributed to Allah is the Quranic verse, "Vision perceives Him not, yet He perceives (all) vision; and He is the Subtile, the Aware." (6:103)

    Humans hears by perceiving sounds with an ear, and sees by perceiving things with an eye, while Allah perceives sounds and things in a manner that befits His Majesty.

    This is so different than the word "hand", no one says Allah has a limb in a manner that befits His Majesty or Allah has a part in a manner that befits His Majesty. "La Hawla Wa quwata illa billah." And these words are the most basic literal meaning of hand, which can apply to any living and non-living thing and be correct. For example, the hand of the statue means the limb of a statue, the hand of an angel means a part of the angel. These literal meanings cannot be applied to Allah, by consensus. So ask the Salafis, what literal meaning do they affirm for Allah, if not limb or part???

    Proof that Allah is not composed of parts nor has limbs is when Allah says, "Say He Allah is One (Ahad)" (ie not composed of parts) (112:1)

    And Allah knows best.
    Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 27-11-15 at 10:19 PM.
    My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

  6. #165
    😈 Al-Wahhābī 😈 Linkdeutscher's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Fais View Post
    Because I don't think they are the same.

    Hearing is something you do. A hand isn't something you do, it's an extension to your arm that you use.

    If you are going to ask "Do you believe Allah has a hand?" ... The correct question regarding hearing is, "Do you believe Allah has ears?"
    No one cares, that's the problem. Allah's attributes don't change according to your human logic.

    Allah said he hears, so he hears.
    Allah said he has hands, so he has hands.
    Allah didn't say he has ears, so we don't say he has ears.

    Simple as that.
    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

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    😈 Al-Wahhābī 😈 Linkdeutscher's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by budi.sudaryo View Post
    http://www.answering - islam.org/authors/rogers/allahs_hands.html
    Why are you posting a link of an anti-Islamic website??
    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

  8. #167
    Odan talibilm09's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

    All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the worlds. And may the peace and blessings be upon the Master of all Messengers - our Prophet Muhammad - and upon his family and companions and those who followed them in goodness until the day of judgement.

    To proceed:

    Al-Salamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah,

    I've read some threads on this forum and saw that there are people here who dislike the crimes of IS / ISIS against the Muslims and other innocent people, but at the same time they admire Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) and the original Najdi movement. This shows that there is huge amount of lack of information regarding the original Najdi movement and the level of their fanaticism.
    Know that IS / ISIS has not even committed 10 % of that which the original Najdi / Wahhabi movement committed against the Muslims in the time of the first Saudi state.

    The reason why it's important to know about the history of the original Wahhabiyyah is because it's necessary in order to understand the roots of fanaticism of an organization like ISIS and also in order not to be fooled by the deception, lies and propaganda of the Mashayikh of so called "Salafi" movement, who are exploiting the thirst of young people - especially those living in the West - to learn the religion. The reason why young people in the West are easily fooled by these so called "Salafis" is because of the ignorance regarding the [true] religion (i.e. Islam) that is unfortunately prevelant in the West.

    In this thread I'll insha`Allah try to lessen this lack of information concerning the original Najdi movement.

    Before I begin I would like to make an important note: This thread is NOT for the sake of dicussion and argumentation, but rather in order to inform those brother and sisters who don't know the reality of this movement and to warn them from being influenced by them or their descendants (i.e. the "Salafis"). I would also like to request that no one starts blindly defending Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his original followers in time of the first Saudi state, because I'm quite sure that you haven't read some of the Hardcore-Takfiri books of the original Najdis. All the informations that I will mention are from those books. If you want a proof for anything that I'll mention, then please write a comment here and I'll bring you the relevant qoutes in Arabic [from Najdi books] (and summarize its content).


    These are the most important Najdi sources in order to know the reality of this movement:

    - Tarikh Najd by the Wahhabi historian Hussayn bin Ghannam (d. 1225 AH): It's a history book and the author is a supporter and direct student of Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab.
    - 'Unwan al-Majd fi Tarikh Najd by the Wahhabi historian 'Uthman bin Bishr (d. 1288 AH): It's also a history book and the author lived during the time of the first and the second Saudi state. Similar to the book of Ibn Ghannam it's full of shocking passages where the author proudly reports how they attacked the cities of the Arabian peninsula and the surrounding areas and how "the Muslims" (while refering to themselves, i.e. the Najdis) killed the "Mushrikin" and "Murtadin" (while refering to the Muslims of the whole region!).
    - Mufid al-Mustafid fi Kufri Tarik al-Tawhid by Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH): He wrote this book after he had made Takfir upon a whole town in Najd (i.e. Huraymila`) and tried to justify it. The reason for his Takfir was first and foremost that the people of the city didn't support his unjustified Takfir and call to bloodshed anymore.
    - Al-Rasa`il al-Shakhsiyyah: These are the personal letters that Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab sent to the scholars, people of authority and other imporant people. In these letters you'll see him making all kind of crazy statements like making Takfir upon the scholars of his time and claiming that he alone has understood Tawhid.
    - Al-Durar al-Saniyyah: A compilation of statements from Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his [blind] followers (whom the "Salafis" refer to as "scholars of Najd"). It was meant as a defence of their creed.

    So let's now begin with the important part:


    Who are the Wahhabiyyah and who is their leader?

    The Wahhabiyyah are the followers of Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH).
    He was the son of a Hanbali scholar and was born in al-'Uyayynah, a village in Najd. He started to study Islam and to become a student of knowledge (Talib al-'Ilm), but somehow he developed strange and extreme views.

    He became obsessed with graves:
    He regarded the wrong actions concerning the graves, which according to classical understanding are either forbidden (haram) or disliked (makruh), as Shirk akbar (polytheism). He did not stop here: He even regarded actions which are allowed according to all 4 accepted Madhahib of the Ahl al-Sunnah (like for example the seeking of intercession through the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - (i.e. Tashaffu')) as "Shirk akbar" and regarded it as a nullifier of one's Islam.

    When his father saw that his son had developed these strange views and had deviated from the way of the Ahl al-Sunnah, he disallowed him to spread his wrong views. He feared however that his son would be the cause of great tribulations after his demise and he was indeed right with this feeling.

    When his father died, Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab started to try to spread his new call.
    Before I proceed I would like to show you what this person thought about himself, so that you do not have any doubts regarding his deviance from the way of the Ahl al-Sunnah and the Sawad al-A'dham of this Ummah.


    Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab: "No one knows Tawhid except me"

    He said in one of his letters:

    وأنا أخبركم عن نفسي والله الذي لا إله إلا هو لقد طلبت العلم واعتقد من عرفني أن لي معرفة وأنا ذلك الوقت لا أعرف معنى لا إله إلا الله، ولا أعرف دين الإسلام قبل هذا الخير الذي من الله به. وكذلك مشايخي ما منهم رجل عرف ذلك، فمن زعم من علماء العارض أنه عرف معنى لا إله إلا الله أو عرف معنى الإسلام قبل هذا الوقت أو زعم عن مشايخه أن أحداً عرف ذلك فقد كذب وافترى ولبس على الناس ومدح نفسه بما ليس فيه

    "And I inform you about myself - I swear by Allah whom there is none worthy to worship except Him - I have sought knowledge and those who knew me believed that I had knowledge while I did not know the meaning of La Ilaha illa Allah at that time and did not know the religion of Islam before this grace that Allah favored. As well as my teachers (Mashayikh) no one among them knew that. And if someone from the scholars of al-'Aridh (the lands of Najd and surrounding areas) claims that he knew the meaning of La Ilaha illa Allah or knew the meaning of Islam before this time, or claims on behalf of his teachers that someone from them knew that, then he has lied and said falsehood and deceived the people and praised himself with something he does not possess."

    Source: al-Rasa`il al-Shakhsiyyah and al-Durar al-Saniyyah 10/51

    Just look at the arrogance and narcissm of this person and how he claims that he alone knows Tawhid while accusing the scholars (!) of the whole region of not knowing it. And where did this "knowledge" come from if no one teached it him?
    And you'll be surprised how many times he makes such crazy statements in his letters and how he sometimes lies (like for example by accusing anyone who critises him of "Sabb al-Din"/"cursing the religion") in a very clear way without having any shame whatsoever! May Allah ta'ala give him what he deserves!


    What was his connection to the first Saudi state?

    After he was thrown out of his hometown he met the Amir of al-Dir'iyyah (which is a town in Najd), Muhammad bin Sa'ud (d. 1179 AH), in the year 1157 AH. Ibn Sa'ud accepted his call after Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab had told him that the people of Najd and the surrounding were upon "polytheism" and "ignorance" and after he explained to him his new religion. (Ibn Bishr has mentioned the incident.) Ibn Sa'ud and Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab made an alliance and agreed that the polical power shall be for Ibn Sa'ud (and his sons after him) and that the religious power shall be for Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his new ideas. This was the birth of the first Saudi state and he was the "Mufti" of this [accursed] state.


    The first Saudi state: The worst and most bloodthirsty Khawarij in the history!

    After the alliance was made Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab started throwing around with Fatawa of Takfir and to claim that most people of his time were are upon "Shirk akbar" (polytheism), so that the soldiers of the new born Saudi state could take this as a justifcation to fight the surrounding areas and occupy these regions. The Najdis first started with the towns and villages of Najd and attacked them one after the other.

    But they did not stop with Najd. Soon they started to attack the whole Arabian peninsula. They also attacked all surrounding areas like 'Iraq, Sham, Yemen, 'Oman, etc.
    They did no even shy away from making Takfir against the people of Makkah al-mukarramah and Madinah al-munawwarah and harming them and occupying these blessed cities!!

    If you read how the two Wahhabi historians Ibn Ghannam and Ibn Bishr proudly and without any shame reported these incidents you'll be shocked. They reported how they made Takfir upon whole towns and villages, attacked them and killed them on the streets, the markets and even in their houses. They even killed the Amir of al-'Uyayynah inside the mosque (!!!) after he had prayed the Salat al-Jum'ah. (Not even the houses of Allah had any sanctity for them!)
    They also reported how they burned and destroyed the fields of Muslims (while referring to them as "polytheists" and "apostates"), robbed and stole from them whatever they could take!
    They even reported what a great fear their attacks caused in the heart of the people (this was during their attack on al-Sham) or how the people - innocent Muslim men and women!!! - ran away from them and died from hunger and thirst in the desert (this is what happened to the people of al-Riyadh) or how the people fled to the ocean and drowned in the water (this happened to the people of al-Basrah). They also reported how they made an embargo against different cities which caused the people to die from hunger (this happened to the people Makkah al-mukarramah!).


    And as if all of these crimes are not enough: When they occupied Makkah al-mukarramah they stopped the people from the other Muslim lands from making Hajj for several years, because they regarded all of them to be "polytheists" and "apostates". The first time this happened in the year 1221 AH.

    When their tyranny and bloodshed had reached its peak, the Ottomans - who were the biggest "Mushrikin" (polytheists) upon this earth according the Najdis - decided to stop these criminal Mariqin and Khawarij and to retake every single city that they had occupied. The Ottomans crushed their Khariji state and the first Saudi state ceased to exist by the help of Allah and his permission.


    What is build upon deviation does not lead to anything except more deviation:

    After the first state they had a second state, but the second state was only in Najd and was weak compared to their first state. As for the third state: It's the current Saudi state and it was build upon treason against the whole Ummah of Islam.

    In the time of their first State the Wahhabiyyah were hated by all Muslims of the region (because everyone saw and knew of their crimes) and the people did not accept their views. However when time passed by the people started to forget about them.

    During the third state (i.e. the actual one) the government started to spread the so called "Salafi" Da'wah with huge amounts of money (because there is still an alliance between the Saudi rulers and the Wahhabi Al al-Shaykhs, who are the descendents of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab). This and the widespread ignorance regarding the religion in our times are the main reason why the "Salafis" have spread. It should be noted that the so called "Salafi" Da'wah has nothing to do with the Salaf al-salih or the Ahl al-Sunnah. It's the result of a mix of the ideas of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and some other controversial personalities.

    So beware from whom you take religion and do not let these deceivers influence you.

    And our last call is that all praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds. And may the peace and blessings be upon our Master Muhammad - the seal of the Prophets and Messengers - and upon all of his familiy and companions.
    Salam

    IF whatever said here is true its highly deplorable and am shaken from such tyranny IF THAT"S TRUE and that too in the sanctuary ??? NAUDHUBILLAH , Allahul aalam. We should know even when Nabi knew that who were the hypocrites and the list was given to Hudhayfa al Yaman ( RA) still he was not allowed to disclose OR KILL THEM. And the Hypocrites Deserve the worst we all know about that .Both facts from are well know Sahih Bukhari etc .Here is a lesson we should learn we should never go to extremes but follow the Middle Path .I just found this hadith and so i am posting it since it orders me to inform the ummah

    Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 3 :: Hadith 104
    Narrated Said: Abu Shuraih said, "When 'Amr bin Said was sending the troops to Mecca (to fight 'Abdullah bin Az-Zubair) I said to him, 'O chief! Allow me to tell you what the Prophet said on the day following the conquests of Mecca. My ears heard and my heart comprehended, and I saw him with my own eyes, when he said it. He glorified and praised Allah and then said, "Allah and not the people has made Mecca a sanctuary.
    So anybody who has belief in Allah and the Last Day (i.e. a Muslim) should neither shed blood in it nor cut down its trees. If anybody argues that fighting is allowed in Mecca as Allah's Apostle did fight (in Mecca), tell him that Allah gave permission to His Apostle, but He did not give it to you. The Prophet added: Allah allowed me only for a few hours on that day (of the conquest) and today (now) its sanctity is the same (valid) as it was before. So it is incumbent upon those who are present to convey it (this information) to those who are absent." Abu- Shuraih was asked, "What did 'Amr reply?" He said 'Amr said, "O Abu Shuraih! I know better than you (in this respect). Mecca does not give protection to one who disobeys (Allah) or runs after committing murder, or theft (and takes refuge in Mecca).


    Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 88 :: Hadith 184
    Narrated 'Abdullah and Abu Musa: The Prophet said, "Near the establishment of the Hour there will be days during which Religious ignorance will spread, knowledge will be taken away (vanish) and there will be much Al-Harj, and Al-Harj means killing."

    Kindly read on takfir , from post #57 onwards
    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...r-Wisdom/page2
    Last edited by talibilm09; 27-11-15 at 03:02 PM.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
    Can you provide the source of these hadiths?
    So you indirectly proved that these ahadith are in support of my position, otherwise you wouldn't have asked for the sources.

    Good.
    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    Salam

    IF whatever said here was the truth its VERY highly deplorable and am shaken from such tyranny IF THAT"S TRUE and that too in the sanctuary ??? NAUDHUBILLAH , Allahul aalam. We should know even when Nabi knew that who were the hypocrites and the list was given to Hudhayfa al Yaman ( RA) still he was not allowed to disclose OR KILL THEM. And the Hypocrites Deserve the worst we all know about that .Both facts from are well know Sahih Bukhari etc .Here is a lesson we should learn we should never go to extremes but follow the Middle Path .I just found this hadith and so i am posting it since it orders me to inform the ummah

    Bukhari :: Book 1 :: Volume 3 :: Hadith 104
    Narrated Said: Abu Shuraih said, "When 'Amr bin Said was sending the troops to Mecca (to fight 'Abdullah bin Az-Zubair) I said to him, 'O chief! Allow me to tell you what the Prophet said on the day following the conquests of Mecca. My ears heard and my heart comprehended, and I saw him with my own eyes, when he said it. He glorified and praised Allah and then said, "Allah and not the people has made Mecca a sanctuary.
    So anybody who has belief in Allah and the Last Day (i.e. a Muslim) should neither shed blood in it nor cut down its trees. If anybody argues that fighting is allowed in Mecca as Allah's Apostle did fight (in Mecca), tell him that Allah gave permission to His Apostle, but He did not give it to you. The Prophet added: Allah allowed me only for a few hours on that day (of the conquest) and today (now) its sanctity is the same (valid) as it was before. So it is incumbent upon those who are present to convey it (this information) to those who are absent." Abu- Shuraih was asked, "What did 'Amr reply?" He said 'Amr said, "O Abu Shuraih! I know better than you (in this respect). Mecca does not give protection to one who disobeys (Allah) or runs after committing murder, or theft (and takes refuge in Mecca).


    Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 88 :: Hadith 184
    Narrated 'Abdullah and Abu Musa: The Prophet said, "Near the establishment of the Hour there will be days during which Religious ignorance will spread, knowledge will be taken away (vanish) and there will be much Al-Harj, and Al-Harj means killing."

    Kindly read on takfir , from post #57 onwards
    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...r-Wisdom/page2
    Another Hadith to this subject

    ''It is narrated on the authority of Usama b. Zaid that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent us in a raiding party. We raided Huraqat of Juhaina in the morning. I caught hold of a man and he said: There is no god but Allah, I attacked him with a spear. It once occurred to me and I talked about it to the Apostle (may peace be upon him). The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Did he profess" There is no god but Allah," and even then you killed him? I said: Messenger of Allah, he made a profession of it out of the fear of the weapon. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Did you tear his heart in order to find out whether it had professed or not? And he went on repeating it to me till I wished I had embraced Islam that day................................''

    If those misguided Muslims were killed in 10,000's where is the chance to judge what was in their Heart ??? . It may have seemed to they visited graves but many innocent muhmins could have been there without doing shirk. Mufti Menk said something like If a single innocent Muslim (or Muhmun i forgot ) was killed unjustly even together with the approval of the whole world Allah wills to kill the whole world as a revenge only to avenge this sin for his ONE beloved slave.
    Last edited by talibilm09; 27-11-15 at 04:09 PM.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    So you indirectly proved that these ahadith are in support of my position, otherwise you wouldn't have asked for the sources.

    Good.
    That hadith doesn't prove the Salafi position, even if authentic. I was just curious as to the origins of that hadith, since the source was not mentioned.
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    No one cares, that's the problem. Allah's attributes don't change according to your human logic.

    Allah said he hears, so he hears.
    Allah said he has hands, so he has hands.
    Allah didn't say he has ears, so we don't say he has ears.

    Simple as that.
    Linguistically speaking, the literal meaning of hand cannot be a sifat (an Attribute), in Arabic hand is referred to as a naat (trait), not a sifat (attribute).

    "Indeed, We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an that you might understand." (12:2)

    It is one of the points that Ibn Jawzi was criticizing the Hanbalis of his time, just because a sentence is in a possessive form (the hand of), doesn't mean it is an attribute (sifat).

    Ibn Jawzi said, "And those writers who I have mentioned have erred in seven matters. The first of them is that they called the "reports" (the narrations) 'Attributes,' when they are merely annexations/possessive forms. And not every possessive form is an attribute. For Allah, High is He has said, "And I have blown into him from My Spirit' (Al Hijr:29). And Allah doesn't have an attribute known as a 'spirit." So those who have called 'the possessive form' (idafa) 'an attribute' are guilty of innovation."

    The linguist, Thalab says, "A Na't is a description given to a specfic part of the body like the word 'lame' (araj). A 'Sifa' (attribute) is for non-specificity (umoon) , like the word 'magnificent' (azeem) and 'generous' (kareem). So Allah is described with a 'sifa". But He is not described with a 'na't'." (Taaj al Aroos)

    And Allah knows best.
    Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 27-11-15 at 04:58 PM.
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    No one cares, that's the problem. Allah's attributes don't change according to your human logic.

    Allah said he hears, so he hears.
    Allah said he has hands, so he has hands.
    Allah didn't say he has ears, so we don't say he has ears.

    Simple as that.

    Cool story.
    If you were in the clouds, Allah would raise us to you or lower you to us for battle.

    said this to the Byzantine troops when they retreated from the battle field to the fortified town of Chalcis.

    - Khalid ibn Walid

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    No akhi what is this
    Allah says he hears so we say he hears, Allah says he has hands so we say he has hands, we accept them both in the same way
    Allah does not say he has ears
    Again look, you yourself is deciding what likening Allah to his creation is
    Is it a literal hearing?
    If you were in the clouds, Allah would raise us to you or lower you to us for battle.

    said this to the Byzantine troops when they retreated from the battle field to the fortified town of Chalcis.

    - Khalid ibn Walid

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Fais View Post
    Is it a literal hearing?
    The apparent meaning is clear, Allah hears but its not like ours

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    The apparent meaning is clear, Allah hears but its not like ours
    Why you dodging the question?

    Answer this, are the hands you mentioned literal?
    If you were in the clouds, Allah would raise us to you or lower you to us for battle.

    said this to the Byzantine troops when they retreated from the battle field to the fortified town of Chalcis.

    - Khalid ibn Walid

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Fais View Post
    Why you dodging the question?

    Answer this, are the hands you mentioned literal?
    Of coure they are, common sense.
    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Why discuss an issue regarding which neither of you will accept the position of the other. The issue is much more far reaching than just Hand. Consider the Name(s) of Allah. One Name is Al-Samd. One of the meanings of this Name with the Hanbalis is الذي لا جوف له - The one who has no Jauf since this has been transmitted from the Salaf. But the likes of Al-Raazi and, I believe Al-Ghazaali too, and others have rejected it simply because they consider it Tajseem.

    So, even if you did agree on one thing, there are hundreds of others to disagree on. Quite clearly the Aqeedah of the Ash'aris and Hanbalis is very different. [1]

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Fais View Post
    Because I don't think they are the same.

    Hearing is something you do. A hand isn't something you do, it's an extension to your arm that you use.

    If you are going to ask "Do you believe Allah has a hand?" ... The correct question regarding hearing is, "Do you believe Allah has ears?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    No one cares, that's the problem. Allah's attributes don't change according to your human logic.

    Allah said he hears, so he hears.
    Allah said he has hands, so he has hands.
    Allah didn't say he has ears, so we don't say he has ears.

    Simple as that.
    Salam

    Allah has told to ponder over his creations and understand the Greatness of Allah swt through them rather than pondering on the Creator. Because Aisha (raz anha) said something like Prophet has never seen his Lord even on Mihraj because there was a veil in between and veil was Noor -light. Its known that after the sidratul muntaha where Gibraeel AS did not dare to go beyond that spot leaving Prophet to proceed on his own to meet Allah Such things that are discussed here should be considered as Muthashabihat (Noble Quran 3:7) and avoid deep discussion which is a trap of Satan to make us slip into Shirk .

    '' It is He Who has sent down to you (Muhammad SAW) the Book (this Quran). In it are Verses that are entirely clear, they are the foundations of the Book [and those are the Verses of Al-Ahkam (commandments, etc.), Al-Fara'id (obligatory duties) and Al-Hudud (legal laws for the punishment of thieves, adulterers, etc.)]; and others not entirely clear. So as for those in whose hearts there is a deviation (from the truth) they follow that which is not entirely clear thereof, seeking Al-Fitnah (polytheism and trials, etc.), and seeking for its hidden meanings, but none knows its hidden meanings save Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in it; the whole of it (clear and unclear Verses) are from our Lord." And none receive admonition except men of understanding. (Tafsir At-Tabari).''

    and stick to this verse of sura iklaas and wound up this matter

    "And there is none co-equal or comparable unto Him."


    Last edited by talibilm09; 28-11-15 at 02:58 AM.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    Why discuss an issue regarding which neither of you will accept the position of the other. The issue is much more far reaching than just Hand. Consider the Name(s) of Allah. One Name is Al-Samd. One of the meanings of this Name with the Hanbalis is الذي لا جوف له - The one who has no Jauf since this has been transmitted from the Salaf. But the likes of Al-Raazi and, I believe Al-Ghazaali too, and others have rejected it simply because they consider it Tajseem.

    So, even if you did agree on one thing, there are hundreds of others to disagree on. Quite clearly the Aqeedah of the Ash'aris and Hanbalis is very different. [1]
    I realised this before aswell, what they see as tajseem they won't accept, there is not much more to discuss after this
    Anyway this went off topic, it was never an aqeedah discussion

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    I realised this before aswell, what they see as tajseem they won't accept, there is not much more to discuss after this
    Anyway this went off topic, it was never an aqeedah discussion
    My biggest problem with Salafi Aqida is their belief that they are upon the Aqida of the Early Muslims (Salafus Saleh), yet are unable to prove it. The Prophet never said to take the literal meaning (or apparent meaning - ala Dhahiri) of hand, nor his companions, nor the tabieen nor the tabi tabieen.

    You Salafis try to make an innovated belief obligatory upon the Muslims with no proof, and then call us deviant for not accepting what you CANNOT prove.
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    The apparent meaning is the apparent meaning because it does not necessarily need an explanation. That's the whole point of it being apparent!

    The whole 'literal v metaphorical' argument is bogus as some things are taken 'literally' without proof or explanation such as 'Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him'.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
    My biggest problem with Salafi Aqida is their belief that they are upon the Aqida of the Early Muslims (Salafus Saleh), yet are unable to prove it. The Prophet never said to take the literal meaning (or apparent meaning - ala Dhahiri) of hand, nor his companions, nor the tabieen nor the tabi tabieen.

    You Salafis try to make an innovated belief obligatory upon the Muslims with no proof, and then call us deviant for not accepting what you CANNOT prove.
    Yes they are, this is your misunderstanding.

    The salaf said Allah has hands, and EVERYONE understood this to be literal, until Jahmis and what not came, then Aristotle's material was translated and you guys came into existence who started this bogus 'literal vs metaphorical' debate.

    If I say I have a car it means I have a car, I don't have to say I literally have a car. UNTIL some fool starts to misinterpret my statement by saying "No he doesn't mean actually mean car by car" then to refute such a fool I will say I LITERALLY HAVE A CAR.

    Same exact thing with you Aristotlians.
    Last edited by Linkdeutscher; 29-11-15 at 06:36 PM.
    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    Yes they are, this is your misunderstanding.

    The salaf said Allah has hands, and EVERYONE understood this to be literal, until Jahmis and what not came, then Aristotle was born then you guys came into existence who started this bogus 'literal vs metaphorical' debate.

    If I say I have a car it means I have a car, I don't have to say I literally have a car. UNTIL some fool starts to misinterpret my statement by saying "No he doesn't mean actually mean car by car" then to refute such a fool I will say I LITERALLY HAVE A CAR.

    Same exact thing with you Aristotlians.
    Its what you believe but cannot prove, ie lack of evidence. And your argument makes no sense because we know the reality of a car, but we do not know the reality of Allah, we know some things about Allah, but we don't know the reality of Allah.
    Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 28-11-15 at 07:15 PM.
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    The apparent meaning is the apparent meaning because it does not necessarily need an explanation. That's the whole point of it being apparent!

    The whole 'literal v metaphorical' argument is bogus as some things are taken 'literally' without proof or explanation such as 'Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him'.
    The example is flawed. Pleasure is something that is felt by the heart, the meaning in its origin is abstract, it is solely subjective. While Hand is a physical reality for us human beings, whose literal meaning of limb and bodily part are meanings which is absolute and objective, and is negated for Allah by consensus.
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
    The example is flawed. Pleasure is something that is felt by the heart, the meaning in its origin is abstract, it is solely subjective. While Hand is a physical reality for us human beings, whose literal meaning of limb and bodily part are meanings which is absolute and objective, and is negated for Allah by consensus.
    You see, now anyone can say that you have ascribed a 'literal heart' for Allah. Is that the case?

    Also, don't be stupid by saying 'negated by consensus' because it' more lies.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    You see, now anyone can say that you have ascribed a 'literal heart' for Allah. Is that the case?

    Also, don't be stupid by saying 'negated by consensus' because it' more lies.
    I didn't ascribe a literal heart to Allah, I was explaining where pleasure can from us, and explaining how it is abstract and subjective. Being pleased with someone can literally mean having a favorable opinion of them or liking them.

    While the literal meaning of hand, such as limb or part, are absolute and objective. Meaning which the scholars have rejected for Allah by consensus.

    The general literal meaning of Allah being pleased with someone no one has a problem ascribing to Allah, such as Allah having a favorable opinion of someone.
    While the general literal meaning of hand, whether it is limb or hand, everyone has a problem with ascribing to Allah.


    If there is no difference, what general literal meaning of hand are you ascribing to Allah?
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
    I didn't ascribe a literal heart to Allah, I was explaining where pleasure can from us, and explaining how it is abstract and subjective. Being pleased with someone can literally mean having a favorable opinion of them or liking them...
    You said pleasure is something felt by the heart. Therefore, heart feels pleasure. Heart is a limb. Allah is pleased - therefore you've ascribed a heart. This makes you an anthropomorphist.

    The argument above reflects your argument on the 'literal hand'. Bogus.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Salamun 'alaykum,

    I would like to remind the brothers here that this thread is not about the divine attributes, but rather about the unjustified Takfir and bloodshed of the original Wahhabi movement.

    As for the issue of the divine attributes, then I would like to say the following:

    The classical scholars have mentioned that the Ayat [and Ahadith] concerning the divine attributes are from among the Mutashabihat (unclear/ambiguous verses). That which is obligatory regarding these Ayat [and Ahadith] is to believe in them and that's it. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala has not obliged us to know their exact interpretation. The Madhhab of the Salaf al-salih regarding them is to believe in them and to relegate the knowledge of their exact interpretation to Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala while being sure that there is nothing unto like Him.

    In the last comments some people have tried to act as if the exact interpretation of these Ayat and Ahadith is known and claimed that Yad definetly means a literal hand when it's used concerning Allah ta'ala.
    It is said to these people:
    The Qur`an was revealed in Arabic and not in English and therefore the English word hand can nowhere be found in the Qur`an. The majority of the scholars did not allow to translate Yad into other languages when it's used concerning Allah ta'ala. The minorty view is that it's allowed, but only if it's not meant as a limb.
    As for your addition of the word literal or real, then this is Bid'ah (innovation). It would have been better for you to stick to the words of Allah ta'ala and not to add anything to it from yourself.
    The interpretation that you've mentioned is definetly not meant, because it goes against Ayat which are Muhkam. When Yad is taken literally it means Jarihah (limb) (look it up in an Arabic dictionary) and to ascribe a limb to Allah ta'ala is Kufr (disbelief).
    If you say "but we do not intend a limb nor do we intend anything with a form and dimensions", then it is said: In that case you shouldn't say a literal hand. The reason why you're using this word is out of Taqlid of the "Salafi" Mashayikh (Taqlid is not allowed in 'Aqidah!) and these "Salafi" Mashayikh do actually intend limbs (Jawarih) or parts (Ajza`/Ab'adh) when they say that "Allah has two real hands" (even thoug they do not use the expression).
    Go and look what Ibn Taymiyyah (d. 728 AH) said (look for example into his Bayan Talbis al-Jahmiyyah) said (and I'm mentioning him, because "Salafis" love to make Taqlid of all his mistakes) and you'll see that he makes a differentiation between accepting Yad, Wajh, etc. as Ma'ani (which is the Madhhab of a group of scholars from among the Ahl al-Sunnah) and between accepting it as A'yan (which is the Madhhab of Mujassimah (and he is from among them)).

    If you don't unterstand the difference between accepting the Sifat as Ma'ani (معاني) and accepting them as A'yan (أعيان) (and the difference is very huge!), then I would seriously advise you to stop discussing this issue, because it's not allowed to speak about Allah ta'ala without knowledge.

    And now I would like everyone to come back to the real topic. If you want to keep on discussing about the divine attributes, then please do so in another thread (but only if you know what you're saying).

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    You said pleasure is something felt by the heart. Therefore, heart feels pleasure. Heart is a limb. Allah is pleased - therefore you've ascribed a heart. This makes you an anthropomorphist.
    .
    I clarified what I meant, which makes you a liar.
    Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 28-11-15 at 09:58 PM.
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
    I clarified what I meant, which makes you a liar.
    You really are a first class moron. I told you that I provided a bogus argument to reflect yours. You're just pretending to play dumb as is your game but sometimes I don't think you're pretending.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
    My biggest problem with Salafi Aqida is their belief that they are upon the Aqida of the Early Muslims (Salafus Saleh), yet are unable to prove it. The Prophet never said to take the literal meaning (or apparent meaning - ala Dhahiri) of hand, nor his companions, nor the tabieen nor the tabi tabieen.

    You Salafis try to make an innovated belief obligatory upon the Muslims with no proof, and then call us deviant for not accepting what you CANNOT prove.
    The reason they didn't say take the zahir is because it was simple and no one at the time understood it wrong, later however people deviated thus the need for the term zahir was introduced by the scholars,

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    I guess that being off-topic is very normal on UF.

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    The reason they didn't say take the zahir is because it was simple and no one at the time understood it wrong, later however people deviated thus the need for the term zahir was introduced by the scholars,
    Even the term Dhahir can be meant differently in this context.
    But let me ask you a question since you're acting as is if the meaning is sooo clear: What is the meaning of Yad or Wajh when it's used for Allah ta'ala? (I don't want to hear a translation. Just imagine you're speaking to someone who only understands Arabic.)

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    I guess that being off-topic is very normal on UF...
    You can't start a 'Wahhabi thread' and not expect any and every Wahhabi issue to be brought up. Even IS has had a million threads so I'm not sure that you've mentioned anything new here.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    You can't start a 'Wahhabi thread' and not expect any and every Wahhabi issue to be brought up. Even IS has had a million threads so I'm not sure that you've mentioned anything new here.
    Did you read my previous comments in this thread? If yes: Do you regard the people of Makkah as polytheists? Do you believe that the one who doesn't make Takfir upon them is a disbeliever? Do you regard the ottoman state as polytheists? Do you believe that it's okay to make an embargo against the people of Makkah al-mukarramah and Madinah al-Munawwarah? Do you believe that killing Muslims throughtout the whole Arabian peninsula and areas around it is right and okay?

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Did you read my previous comments in this thread? If yes: Do you regard the people of Makkah as polytheists? Do you believe that the one who doesn't make Takfir upon them is a disbeliever? Do you regard the ottoman state as polytheists? Do you believe that it's okay to make an embargo against the people of Makkah al-mukarramah and Madinah al-Munawwarah? Do you believe that killing Muslims throughtout the whole Arabian peninsula and areas around it is right and okay?
    No, I done a tl;dr.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    No, I done a tl;dr.
    Okay, alhamdulillah. Then what do you say about the one who says the following? (I've already qouted this statement HERE):

    الأمر الثاني: الكفر بما يعبد من دون الله، والمراد بذلك تكفير المشركين، والبراءة منهم، ومما يعبدون مع الله. فمن لم يكفر المشركين من الدولة التركية، وعباد القبور، كأهل مكة وغيرهم، ممن عبد الصالحين، وعدل عن توحيد الله إلى الشرك، وبدّل سنّة رسوله صلى الله عليه وسلم بالبدع، فهو كافر مثلهم، وإن كان يكره دينهم، ويبغضهم، ويحب الإسلام والمسلمين ; فإن الذي لا يكفر المشركين، غير مصدق بالقرآن، فإن القرآن قد كفر المشركين، وأمر بتكفيرهم، وعداوتهم وقتالهم

    "The second issue: To disbelieve in that which is worshipped instead of Allah, and this means to make Takfir (declare as disbelievers) upon the polytheists (Mushrikin) and the disavowal from them and that which they worship alongside Allah.
    So whoever does not make Takfir upon the polytheists of the turkish state (i.e. the Ottomans!) and the grave-worshippers like the people of Makkah (!!!) and [upon] others from those who worship the righteous (Salihin) and left the Tawhid (monotheism) of Allah for Shirk (polytheism) and exchanged the Sunnah of his Messenger - sallalalhu 'alayhi wa sallam - with innovations, then he is a disbeliever like them even if dislikes their religion und hates them and loves Islam and its people.
    This is so because the one who does not declare the polytheists to be disbelievers has not accepted the Qur`an. The Qur`an declares the polytheists as disbelievers, and commands to declare them as such and to show enmity towards them and to fight them."

    Source: al-Durar al-Saniyya 9/291

    Is it okay to regard the people who said this and who made an embargo against Makkah al-mukarramah and Madinah al-munawwarah (it happened in 1220 AH) as criminal Khawarij?
    Or let me ask in a different way: What is the ruling concerning the people who made the above statement? And what is the ruling of the one who tries to turn the people who made such kind of statements as absolute authorities regarding the religion of Allah?

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    Yes they are, this is your misunderstanding.

    The salaf said Allah has hands, and EVERYONE understood this to be literal, until Jahmis and what not came, then Aristotle was born then you guys came into existence who started this bogus 'literal vs metaphorical' debate.

    If I say I have a car it means I have a car, I don't have to say I literally have a car. UNTIL some fool starts to misinterpret my statement by saying "No he doesn't mean actually mean car by car" then to refute such a fool I will say I LITERALLY HAVE A CAR.

    Same exact thing with you Aristotlians.
    Worst example I've ever seen no offence
    Last edited by Ahki Muhammad; 28-11-15 at 11:32 PM.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Okay, alhamdulillah. Then what do you say about the one who says the following? (I've already qouted this statement HERE):

    الأمر الثاني: الكفر بما يعبد من دون الله، والمراد بذلك تكفير المشركين، والبراءة منهم، ومما يعبدون مع الله. فمن لم يكفر المشركين من الدولة التركية، وعباد القبور، كأهل مكة وغيرهم، ممن عبد الصالحين، وعدل عن توحيد الله إلى الشرك، وبدّل سنّة رسوله صلى الله عليه وسلم بالبدع، فهو كافر مثلهم، وإن كان يكره دينهم، ويبغضهم، ويحب الإسلام والمسلمين ; فإن الذي لا يكفر المشركين، غير مصدق بالقرآن، فإن القرآن قد كفر المشركين، وأمر بتكفيرهم، وعداوتهم وقتالهم

    "The second issue: To disbelieve in that which is worshipped instead of Allah, and this means to make Takfir (declare as disbelievers) upon the polytheists (Mushrikin) and the disavowal from them and that which they worship alongside Allah.
    So whoever does not make Takfir upon the polytheists of the turkish state (i.e. the Ottomans!) and the grave-worshippers like the people of Makkah (!!!) and [upon] others from those who worship the righteous (Salihin) and left the Tawhid (monotheism) of Allah for Shirk (polytheism) and exchanged the Sunnah of his Messenger - sallalalhu 'alayhi wa sallam - with innovations, then he is a disbeliever like them even if dislikes their religion und hates them and loves Islam and its people.
    This is so because the one who does not declare the polytheists to be disbelievers has not accepted the Qur`an. The Qur`an declares the polytheists as disbelievers, and commands to declare them as such and to show enmity towards them and to fight them."

    Source: al-Durar al-Saniyya 9/291

    Is it okay to regard the people who said this and who made an embargo against Makkah al-mukarramah and Madinah al-munawwarah (it happened in 1220 AH) as criminal Khawarij?
    Or let me ask in a different way: What is the ruling concerning the people who made the above statement? And what is the ruling of the one who tries to turn the people who made such kind of statements as absolute authorities regarding the religion of Allah?
    If shirk is proven then I don't believe they can be regarded as 'Khawarij'. Rather, declaring takfeer on polytheists and grave worshippers is quite normal. I don't know anyone who regards 'them' as absolute authorities so...

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahki Muhammad View Post
    Worst example I've ever seen no offence
    I agree it's stupid, but Aristotlians can't understand more complex examples.
    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    ...
    Last edited by Ajabah; 29-11-15 at 09:23 PM. Reason: No point.

 

 

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