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  1. #1
    al-Ash'ari Abu Sulayman's Avatar
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    Exclamation The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than ISIS

    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

    All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the worlds. And may the peace and blessings be upon the Master of all Messengers - our Prophet Muhammad - and upon his family and companions and those who followed them in goodness until the day of judgement.

    To proceed:

    Al-Salamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah,

    I've read some threads on this forum and saw that there are people here who dislike the crimes of IS / ISIS against the Muslims and other innocent people, but at the same time they admire Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) and the original Najdi movement. This shows that there is huge amount of lack of information regarding the original Najdi movement and the level of their fanaticism.
    Know that IS / ISIS has not even committed 10 % of that which the original Najdi / Wahhabi movement committed against the Muslims in the time of the first Saudi state.

    The reason why it's important to know about the history of the original Wahhabiyyah is because it's necessary in order to understand the roots of fanaticism of an organization like ISIS and also in order not to be fooled by the deception, lies and propaganda of the Mashayikh of so called "Salafi" movement, who are exploiting the thirst of young people - especially those living in the West - to learn the religion. The reason why young people in the West are easily fooled by these so called "Salafis" is because of the ignorance regarding the [true] religion (i.e. Islam) that is unfortunately prevelant in the West.

    In this thread I'll insha`Allah try to lessen this lack of information concerning the original Najdi movement.

    Before I begin I would like to make an important note: This thread is NOT for the sake of dicussion and argumentation, but rather in order to inform those brother and sisters who don't know the reality of this movement and to warn them from being influenced by them or their descendants (i.e. the "Salafis"). I would also like to request that no one starts blindly defending Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his original followers in time of the first Saudi state, because I'm quite sure that you haven't read some of the Hardcore-Takfiri books of the original Najdis. All the informations that I will mention are from those books. If you want a proof for anything that I'll mention, then please write a comment here and I'll bring you the relevant qoutes in Arabic [from Najdi books] (and summarize its content).


    These are the most important Najdi sources in order to know the reality of this movement:

    - Tarikh Najd by the Wahhabi historian Hussayn bin Ghannam (d. 1225 AH): It's a history book and the author is a supporter and direct student of Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab.
    - 'Unwan al-Majd fi Tarikh Najd by the Wahhabi historian 'Uthman bin Bishr (d. 1288 AH): It's also a history book and the author lived during the time of the first and the second Saudi state. Similar to the book of Ibn Ghannam it's full of shocking passages where the author proudly reports how they attacked the cities of the Arabian peninsula and the surrounding areas and how "the Muslims" (while refering to themselves, i.e. the Najdis) killed the "Mushrikin" and "Murtadin" (while refering to the Muslims of the whole region!).
    - Mufid al-Mustafid fi Kufri Tarik al-Tawhid by Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH): He wrote this book after he had made Takfir upon a whole town in Najd (i.e. Huraymila`) and tried to justify it. The reason for his Takfir was first and foremost that the people of the city didn't support his unjustified Takfir and call to bloodshed anymore.
    - Al-Rasa`il al-Shakhsiyyah: These are the personal letters that Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab sent to the scholars, people of authority and other imporant people. In these letters you'll see him making all kind of crazy statements like making Takfir upon the scholars of his time and claiming that he alone has understood Tawhid.
    - Al-Durar al-Saniyyah: A compilation of statements from Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his [blind] followers (whom the "Salafis" refer to as "scholars of Najd"). It was meant as a defence of their creed.

    So let's now begin with the important part:


    Who are the Wahhabiyyah and who is their leader?

    The Wahhabiyyah are the followers of Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH).
    He was the son of a Hanbali scholar and was born in al-'Uyayynah, a village in Najd. He started to study Islam and to become a student of knowledge (Talib al-'Ilm), but somehow he developed strange and extreme views.

    He became obsessed with graves:
    He regarded the wrong actions concerning the graves, which according to classical understanding are either forbidden (haram) or disliked (makruh), as Shirk akbar (polytheism). He did not stop here: He even regarded actions which are allowed according to all 4 accepted Madhahib of the Ahl al-Sunnah (like for example the seeking of intercession through the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - (i.e. Tashaffu')) as "Shirk akbar" and regarded it as a nullifier of one's Islam.

    When his father saw that his son had developed these strange views and had deviated from the way of the Ahl al-Sunnah, he disallowed him to spread his wrong views. He feared however that his son would be the cause of great tribulations after his demise and he was indeed right with this feeling.

    When his father died, Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab started to try to spread his new call.
    Before I proceed I would like to show you what this person thought about himself, so that you do not have any doubts regarding his deviance from the way of the Ahl al-Sunnah and the Sawad al-A'dham of this Ummah.


    Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab: "No one knows Tawhid except me"

    He said in one of his letters:

    وأنا أخبركم عن نفسي والله الذي لا إله إلا هو لقد طلبت العلم واعتقد من عرفني أن لي معرفة وأنا ذلك الوقت لا أعرف معنى لا إله إلا الله، ولا أعرف دين الإسلام قبل هذا الخير الذي من الله به. وكذلك مشايخي ما منهم رجل عرف ذلك، فمن زعم من علماء العارض أنه عرف معنى لا إله إلا الله أو عرف معنى الإسلام قبل هذا الوقت أو زعم عن مشايخه أن أحداً عرف ذلك فقد كذب وافترى ولبس على الناس ومدح نفسه بما ليس فيه

    "And I inform you about myself - I swear by Allah whom there is none worthy to worship except Him - I have sought knowledge and those who knew me believed that I had knowledge while I did not know the meaning of La Ilaha illa Allah at that time and did not know the religion of Islam before this grace that Allah favored. As well as my teachers (Mashayikh) no one among them knew that. And if someone from the scholars of al-'Aridh (the lands of Najd and surrounding areas) claims that he knew the meaning of La Ilaha illa Allah or knew the meaning of Islam before this time, or claims on behalf of his teachers that someone from them knew that, then he has lied and said falsehood and deceived the people and praised himself with something he does not possess."

    Source: al-Rasa`il al-Shakhsiyyah and al-Durar al-Saniyyah 10/51

    Just look at the arrogance and narcissm of this person and how he claims that he alone knows Tawhid while accusing the scholars (!) of the whole region of not knowing it. And where did this "knowledge" come from if no one teached it him?
    And you'll be surprised how many times he makes such crazy statements in his letters and how he sometimes lies (like for example by accusing anyone who critises him of "Sabb al-Din"/"cursing the religion") in a very clear way without having any shame whatsoever! May Allah ta'ala give him what he deserves!


    What was his connection to the first Saudi state?

    After he was thrown out of his hometown he met the Amir of al-Dir'iyyah (which is a town in Najd), Muhammad bin Sa'ud (d. 1179 AH), in the year 1157 AH. Ibn Sa'ud accepted his call after Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab had told him that the people of Najd and the surrounding were upon "polytheism" and "ignorance" and after he explained to him his new religion. (Ibn Bishr has mentioned the incident.) Ibn Sa'ud and Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab made an alliance and agreed that the polical power shall be for Ibn Sa'ud (and his sons after him) and that the religious power shall be for Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his new ideas. This was the birth of the first Saudi state and he was the "Mufti" of this [accursed] state.


    The first Saudi state: The worst and most bloodthirsty Khawarij in the history!

    After the alliance was made Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab started throwing around with Fatawa of Takfir and to claim that most people of his time were are upon "Shirk akbar" (polytheism), so that the soldiers of the new born Saudi state could take this as a justifcation to fight the surrounding areas and occupy these regions. The Najdis first started with the towns and villages of Najd and attacked them one after the other.

    But they did not stop with Najd. Soon they started to attack the whole Arabian peninsula. They also attacked all surrounding areas like 'Iraq, Sham, Yemen, 'Oman, etc.
    They did no even shy away from making Takfir against the people of Makkah al-mukarramah and Madinah al-munawwarah and harming them and occupying these blessed cities!!

    If you read how the two Wahhabi historians Ibn Ghannam and Ibn Bishr proudly and without any shame reported these incidents you'll be shocked. They reported how they made Takfir upon whole towns and villages, attacked them and killed them on the streets, the markets and even in their houses. They even killed the Amir of al-'Uyayynah inside the mosque (!!!) after he had prayed the Salat al-Jum'ah. (Not even the houses of Allah had any sanctity for them!)
    They also reported how they burned and destroyed the fields of Muslims (while referring to them as "polytheists" and "apostates"), robbed and stole from them whatever they could take!
    They even reported what a great fear their attacks caused in the heart of the people (this was during their attack on al-Sham) or how the people - innocent Muslim men and women!!! - ran away from them and died from hunger and thirst in the desert (this is what happened to the people of al-Riyadh) or how the people fled to the ocean and drowned in the water (this happened to the people of al-Basrah). They also reported how they made an embargo against different cities which caused the people to die from hunger (this happened to the people Makkah al-mukarramah!).


    And as if all of these crimes are not enough: When they occupied Makkah al-mukarramah they stopped the people from the other Muslim lands from making Hajj for several years, because they regarded all of them to be "polytheists" and "apostates". The first time this happened in the year 1221 AH.

    When their tyranny and bloodshed had reached its peak, the Ottomans - who were the biggest "Mushrikin" (polytheists) upon this earth according the Najdis - decided to stop these criminal Mariqin and Khawarij and to retake every single city that they had occupied. The Ottomans crushed their Khariji state and the first Saudi state ceased to exist by the help of Allah and his permission.


    What is build upon deviation does not lead to anything except more deviation:

    After the first state they had a second state, but the second state was only in Najd and was weak compared to their first state. As for the third state: It's the current Saudi state and it was build upon treason against the whole Ummah of Islam.

    In the time of their first State the Wahhabiyyah were hated by all Muslims of the region (because everyone saw and knew of their crimes) and the people did not accept their views. However when time passed by the people started to forget about them.

    During the third state (i.e. the actual one) the government started to spread the so called "Salafi" Da'wah with huge amounts of money (because there is still an alliance between the Saudi rulers and the Wahhabi Al al-Shaykhs, who are the descendents of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab). This and the widespread ignorance regarding the religion in our times are the main reason why the "Salafis" have spread. It should be noted that the so called "Salafi" Da'wah has nothing to do with the Salaf al-salih or the Ahl al-Sunnah. It's the result of a mix of the ideas of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and some other controversial personalities.

    So beware from whom you take religion and do not let these deceivers influence you.

    And our last call is that all praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds. And may the peace and blessings be upon our Master Muhammad - the seal of the Prophets and Messengers - and upon all of his familiy and companions.

  2. #81
    موحد Abd al-Rahman's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustafa Mahmud View Post
    Please help me de with the comparative religion issue.
    Whats the issue?
    وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
    They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

  3. #82
    Odan Mustafa Mahmud's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
    Whats the issue?
    over with except I can't comment on the comparative religions section

  4. #83
    موحد Abd al-Rahman's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustafa Mahmud View Post
    over with except I can't comment on the comparative religions section
    Why?
    وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
    They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

  5. #84
    Odan Mustafa Mahmud's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
    Why?
    Dunno don't worry now

  6. #85
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    I don't know much about the original poster's beliefs. But in terms of what he's stated he seems like he's winning the argument. Everyone is crowding against him but no one is answering his points.

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    Senior Member PiriReis's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Libyan View Post
    I don't know much about the original poster's beliefs. But in terms of what he's stated he seems like he's winning the argument. Everyone is crowding against him but no one is answering his points.
    That is because what he says is truth. Do you think that a lot of scholars back then just came up with the idea of making accusations against some peaceful good Imam? Why did the Ottomans send a huge army to Mecca and Medina?

    Yet you still get people who insist that all ibn abdul Wahhab did was fight against shirk. No he fought against Devlet-i Aliye. People only joined him out of their ignorance and their greed for plunder and fighting (which was already common in those areas).

    An Ottoman general records the Wahhabis as they enter Taif,

    “Wahhabis took all of the things they found in Taif and piled them. They did not heed the books and threw them away into the streets. Therefore, thousands of books including Bukhari and Muslim books, other hadith books, fiqh books of four sects, books on literature, science and other books were downtrodden. There were even mushafs (Quran) among them. So many valuable books and works were trampled underfoot for a long time. Their emirs divided one fifth of the goods among themselves and the rest were divided among those savage people.”

  8. #87
    Odaning like a boss 0_0 Romero123's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    This was very interesting to read. Thank you OP. Lots of people mocking and putting down OP without no evidence, quite funny to see. Good muslims.

  9. #88
    al-Ash'ari Abu Sulayman's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    The Wahhabiyyah attack a market near al-Basrah, kill the people there and let those who flee from them drown in the water

    The known Wahhabi historian Ibn Bishr (d. 1288 AH) said regarding the events of the year 1212 AH:

    وفيها في رمضان سار سعود رحمه المعبود , بالجنود المنصورة والخيل العتاق المشهورة , من جميع نواحي نجد وعربانها وقصد الشمال , وأغار على سوق الشيوخ المعروف عند البصرة , وقتل منهم قتلى كثيرة , وهرب أناس وغرقوا في الشط

    "And in [that year] in [the month of] Ramadhan (!) Sa'ud [I. bin 'Abd al-'Aziz] - may the worshipped One have mercy upon him - set out with the victorious armies and the famous horses, from all of the areas of Najd and its [bedouin] Arabs and intended the North (i.e. 'Iraq). He attacked the known al-Shuyukh market near al-Basrah and killed many of them. The people fled and drowned in the river."

    Source:
    'Unwan al-Majd 1/240

    So here we see that the Wahhabiyyah attacked a random market of a Muslim town without any reason whatsoever and killed whoever was on that market. And as if that is not enough: They ran after the poeple who tried to flee from them, so that the people had to throw themselves into the river. Then these evil criminals waited until the people drowned in the water!
    And they did all of this in the month of Ramadhan!!!

    Know that doing this is not even allowed against disbelievers, so what about doing this against Muslims?
    (Our religion makes a distinction between fiqhters and non-fighers and the Jumhur of the classical scholars have mentioned that the reason for fighting is Muqatalah (fighting) and not Kufr (disbelief).)

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    al-Ash'ari Abu Sulayman's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH): The lying Dajjal from Najd

    He said:

    ومعلوم: أن أهل أرضنا، وأرض الحجاز، الذي ينكر البعث منهم أكثر ممن يقر به، والذي يعرف الدين أقل ممن لا يعرفه

    "It's known regarding the people of our land (i.e. Najd) and the land of al-Hijaz, that those among them who reject the resurrection [after death] are more than those who accept it and that those [among them] who know the religion are less than those who do not..."

    Source: al-Durar al-Saniyyah 10/43

    This is such a shameless lie from him and whoever believes his claim must have lost his mind.

    Just imagine: He accuses the majority of the people of Hijaz - which by the way was full of scholars [of the Ahl al-Sunnah] at that time - and the people of his land of the rejection of the resurrection after death.
    I mean even in our time, when ignorance regarding the religion is becoming widespread (and "Salafism" is one of the forms of this ignorance), we do not see anywhere people from the Ahl al-Qiblah rejecting the resurrection!

    So how for God's sake can one trust this person after knowing this? How can one trust a person, who lies and deceives?!
    And if you ask why he was lying like that, then the answer is: He was doing this so that his blind followers can attack al-Hijaz (and they attacked it more than once!).

    And know that lying is something that some of his followers do until today:

    So you'll see them accusing other Muslims of things that they have never done nor would ever do! Or they will interpret an action that may be even allowed in the divine law in the worst possible manner, so that they can accuse their opponent of disbelief and polytheism and this and that.

    And what is also widespread among their Mashayikh is to deceive their followers and give them false informations regarding events of the past, other Muslims, etc. (And this unites them with the Mashayikh of the Rafidhah!)

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    Odan Mustafa Mahmud's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH): The lying Dajjal from Najd

    He said:

    ومعلوم: أن أهل أرضنا، وأرض الحجاز، الذي ينكر البعث منهم أكثر ممن يقر به، والذي يعرف الدين أقل ممن لا يعرفه

    "It's known regarding the people of our land (i.e. Najd) and the land of al-Hijaz, that those among them who reject the resurrection [after death] are more than those who accept it and that those [among them] who know the religion are less than those who do not..."

    Source: al-Durar al-Saniyyah 10/43

    This is such a shameless lie from him and whoever believes his claim must have lost his mind.

    Just imagine: He accuses the majority of the people of Hijaz - which by the way was full of scholars [of the Ahl al-Sunnah] at that time - and the people of his land of the rejection of the resurrection after death.
    I mean even in our time, when ignorance regarding the religion is becoming widespread (and "Salafism" is one of the forms of this ignorance), we do not see anywhere people from the Ahl al-Qiblah rejecting the resurrection!

    So how for God's sake can one trust this person after knowing this? How can one trust a person, who lies and deceives?!
    And if you ask why he was lying like that, then the answer is: He was doing this so that his blind followers can attack al-Hijaz (and they attacked it more than once!).

    And know that lying is something that some of his followers do until today:

    So you'll see them accusing other Muslims of things that they have never done nor would ever do! Or they will interpret an action that may be even allowed in the divine law in the worst possible manner, so that they can accuse their opponent of disbelief and polytheism and this and that.

    And what is also widespread among their Mashayikh is to deceive their followers and give them false informations regarding events of the past, other Muslims, etc. (And this unites them with the Mashayikh of the Rafidhah!)
    Well speaking of my situation I am actually curious though I am Muslim now.


    The entire majid I went to impressed on me a blasphemous idea of 2:62. Is started to have a feeling something was wrong but I didn't know what. One Muslim friend told me of course you are wrong and I read a hadith(or more) contradicting my belief but I was still in falsehood since I didn't have 2:62 explained.

    I think it was when I was 16 or 17 and listening to Nouman Ali Khan or Yasir Qadhi (or both really) that it really hit me that I was wrong and I converted to the right faith that believe in Rasulullah sallahualayhiwasalam was necessary for Jannah.

    Also later on I read the tafsir of 2:62 which completely made me firm on the truth.

    I know this belief is kufr by consensus but it incredibly widespread in the West and I would say at least half of all Muslims in America believe this blasphemous falsehood due to ignorance.

    Good to know how serious it is. But here you can even find Muslims who don't know pork is haram, kids who don't know what la ilaha ilalllah means or who Rasulullah sallahualayhiwasalam is!!!

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    Odan Mustafa Mahmud's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Daesh seems to get this belief from MAW that taking aid from kuffar against Muslims is always kufr.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Isis is the najdi Wahhabi movement basically; the only reason Saudi now are against isis is because isis have set their sights on taking Saudi too; other salafis are against isis as some Saudi government scholars [and their friends] have talked out against isis and they follow those scholars!

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    Odan Mustafa Mahmud's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Nassa View Post
    Isis is the najdi Wahhabi movement basically; the only reason Saudi now are against isis is because isis have set their sights on taking Saudi too; other salafis are against isis as some Saudi government scholars [and their friends] have talked out against isis and they follow those scholars!
    Saudis dropped a chunk of the extremism. So they are different groups.


    MAW was human and not free from error.


    I don't think it is as necessary to argue personalities as it is subjects. If MAW committed crimes against Muslims he will be dealt with.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Romero123 View Post
    This was very interesting to read. Thank you OP. Lots of people mocking and putting down OP without no evidence, quite funny to see. Good muslims.
    Exactly. Not one single refutation.
    Last edited by nabeel_shah_1; 20-07-15 at 05:40 AM.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    I may not agree with his posts, but he made a valid point. If you're going to refute, then do so based on actual evidence and not just throw around the standard anti Sufi clichés which does not address any of the points being made.

    Defend him the right way and examine the sources being used and the translations, because that is the first place any distortions will come from.

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    Odan faqir's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Masha'Allah

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by faqir View Post
    Masha'Allah
    Subhanallah

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    No one is refuting him because its a waste of time.
    Its of no use to argue with him. May Allah grant Abdul Wahab Jannat ul Firdos
    Please Please Please Make Dua for these Click Here JazakAllahi

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by GoogleSlayer View Post
    No one is refuting him because its a waste of time.
    Its of no use to argue with him. May Allah grant Abdul Wahab Jannat ul Firdos
    for the love of Allah, the man's name is Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab..

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    for the love of Allah, the man's name is Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab..
    Sorry 4 that
    Please Please Please Make Dua for these Click Here JazakAllahi

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    Abu Butterbean Basil al-Mamluk's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Always enjoy reading your posts Abu Sulayman, very well researched.

    Some responses on here are silly and are of a cultish mindset, especially given the "anti blind followers". Pot, kettle, black.

    I feel that the daesh call is pure, unrefined, anti-revisionist MIAW Najdi dawah.

    Abu Sulayman has never run from the fact that he is a former staunch Najdi and has, after years of study, adopted orthodox Ashari creed. I have never heard him say anything on tasawwuf. This should not matter as his work is well-researched. Knee Jerk responses based on this are pure Red Herrings and pretty much give implicit legitimacy to his thesis, as no attempt at refutation has been attempted. It should even be noted that, besides Ibn Abideen, other Najdi scholars, such as MIAW's brother Sulayman applied similar terminology against him and his dawah; the VERY interesting thing here is that his brother refuted him using the work of Ibn Taymiyyah.

    If the sectarian knee-jerk types want to write the thread off because Abu Sulayman isn't a salafi (or "not a salafi"), please refer to this thread where the same themes are expounded upon by salafi tulaab:

    http://forums.islamicawakening.com/t...raymila.53132/

    There are others on there and you can see the same cultish mentality displayed. Aghast that one of their own can acknowledge history. Then again, I was pretty shocked when I first read about this stuff as well. It's not "mushrik soofee brailvees" who are saying this. Stop, internalize. It may just be that what you were taught when converting or getting serious about the deen vis a vis the person responsible for the religious justification for the saudi state may not have been, in a word, sahih.
    Last edited by Basil al-Mamluk; 24-08-15 at 09:50 AM.
    Remove matzo

  23. #102
    Odan ZeeshanParvez's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil al-Mamluk View Post
    Always enjoy reading your posts Abu Sulayman, very well researched.

    Some responses on here are silly and are of a cultish mindset, especially given the "anti blind followers". Pot, kettle, black.

    I feel that the daesh call is pure, unrefined, anti-revisionist MIAW Najdi dawah.

    Abu Sulayman has never run from the fact that he is a former staunch Najdi and has, after years of study, adopted orthodox Ashari creed. I have never heard him say anything on tasawwuf. This should not matter as his work is well-researched. Knee Jerk responses based on this are pure Red Herrings and pretty much give implicit legitimacy to his thesis, as no attempt at refutation has been attempted. It should even be noted that, besides Ibn Abideen, other Najdi scholars, such as MIAW's brother Sulayman applied similar terminology against him and his dawah; the VERY interesting thing here is that his brother refuted him using the work of Ibn Taymiyyah.
    When you say things like that I get thrown of as to what the purpose of this thread is? To highlight what Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab did or an attempt to say that look the Salafi aqeedah - which is in essence Athari - is all wrong and so is their approach of not accepting the Madhabs?

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
    Do you believe Rasullulah(saw) is everywhere or that he has knowledge of the unseen?
    Do you believe it is halal to make sajdah to other than Allah?
    Do you believe Ahlul bayt are perfect and put them above the anbiyya?
    Do you believe your sheikh can bless something and it will help you?
    Do you believe in pilgrimages to shrines?
    Do you believe the Shari'a isn't necesary anymore and khilafa is useless?
    Do you believe dancing and singing are a form of ibadah?
    Do you accept Abu Bakr(ra) as Khalifa to the Nabi(saw)?
    Do you believe Allah(swt) is above his arsh?
    Do you believe it is halal to wear an amulet for good luck?
    Do you celebrate mawlid?
    Mawlid is not even an issue of aqeedah, its a fiqh issue which there is ikhtilaf regarding of which many great scholars said it is halal and other great scholars said it is haram.

    But it seems that when people see lay men ignorant sufis doing bidah and wreckless dancing.. we rather judge on that yet wont say a single thing to the great scholars who differed on its ruling

    No scholar condones the crazyness of what we see from these Baralevis(not sure how to spell their name). But if we see some Muslims celebrate Mawlid by learning the Seerah of the Prophet , teaching people regarding him, sending Salutations to he Rasululah and celebrating Mawlid in good ways, honoring the Prophet then I have no problem with that, respect that and hope Allah rewards them.
    Last edited by Ahki Muhammad; 24-08-15 at 01:37 PM.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

    During the third state (i.e. the actual one) the government started to spread the so called "Salafi" Da'wah with huge amounts of money (because there is still an alliance between the Saudi rulers and the Wahhabi Al al-Shaykhs, who are the descendents of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab). This and the widespread ignorance regarding the religion in our times are the main reason why the "Salafis" have spread. It should be noted that the so called "Salafi" Da'wah has nothing to do with the Salaf al-salih or the Ahl al-Sunnah. It's the result of a mix of the ideas of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and some other controversial personalities.
    A rather bold statement. Perhaps if he had not put up the disclaimer that this post is not meant for a discussion we could have discussed this by referencing the books of classical scholars on each and every issue ranging from Aqeedah to Fiqh.

    But let's put that aside since he is not open to that and ponder the simple question: The Makkah we know it as today is under the control of these Salafis who have nothing to do with the Salaf and their roots lie in the "lying" Muhammad bin Abd Al-Wahhaab. So, is there any point in making Hajj cuz we gonna be praying behind these people?. Based on this aren't the Braillyes correct in just praying alone when they go to Hajj since after all without valid prayers your Hajj isn't going to be valid .

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    Abu Butterbean Basil al-Mamluk's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
    When you say things like that I get thrown of as to what the purpose of this thread is? To highlight what Muhammad bin Abdul Wahab did or an attempt to say that look the Salafi aqeedah - which is in essence Athari - is all wrong and so is their approach of not accepting the Madhabs?
    He has been attacked on this point but it isn't relevant here (some have tried to derail the thread in this direction).

    He has not mentioned aqeedah and has outlined his thesis clearly. See: referenced IA thread.
    Remove matzo

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
    Do you believe Rasullulah(saw) is everywhere or that he has knowledge of the unseen?
    Do you believe it is halal to make sajdah to other than Allah?
    Do you believe Ahlul bayt are perfect and put them above the anbiyya?
    Do you believe your sheikh can bless something and it will help you?
    Do you believe in pilgrimages to shrines?
    Do you believe the Shari'a isn't necesary anymore and khilafa is useless?
    Do you believe dancing and singing are a form of ibadah?
    Do you accept Abu Bakr(ra) as Khalifa to the Nabi(saw)?
    Do you believe Allah(swt) is above his arsh?
    Do you believe it is halal to wear an amulet for good luck?
    Do you celebrate mawlid?
    that's a childish approach.
    "Europe died in Bosnia and was buried in Syria. Bodies of innocent children washing ashore are the
    western civilization's tombstones"


    Rajab Tayyab Erdogan

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil al-Mamluk View Post
    Always enjoy reading your posts Abu Sulayman, very well researched.

    Some responses on here are silly and are of a cultish mindset, especially given the "anti blind followers". Pot, kettle, black.

    I feel that the daesh call is pure, unrefined, anti-revisionist MIAW Najdi dawah.

    Abu Sulayman has never run from the fact that he is a former staunch Najdi and has, after years of study, adopted orthodox Ashari creed. I have never heard him say anything on tasawwuf. This should not matter as his work is well-researched. Knee Jerk responses based on this are pure Red Herrings and pretty much give implicit legitimacy to his thesis, as no attempt at refutation has been attempted. It should even be noted that, besides Ibn Abideen, other Najdi scholars, such as MIAW's brother Sulayman applied similar terminology against him and his dawah; the VERY interesting thing here is that his brother refuted him using the work of Ibn Taymiyyah.

    If the sectarian knee-jerk types want to write the thread off because Abu Sulayman isn't a salafi (or "not a salafi"), please refer to this thread where the same themes are expounded upon by salafi tulaab:

    http://forums.islamicawakening.com/t...raymila.53132/

    There are others on there and you can see the same cultish mentality displayed. Aghast that one of their own can acknowledge history. Then again, I was pretty shocked when I first read about this stuff as well. It's not "mushrik soofee brailvees" who are saying this. Stop, internalize. It may just be that what you were taught when converting or getting serious about the deen vis a vis the person responsible for the religious justification for the saudi state may not have been, in a word, sahih.
    The material posted by the OP shouldn't come as surprise to those who have studied the history of Najdi movement -
    "Europe died in Bosnia and was buried in Syria. Bodies of innocent children washing ashore are the
    western civilization's tombstones"


    Rajab Tayyab Erdogan

  29. #108
    An-Najdi abufulaans's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    People are doing all they can to stop The 'Wahhabi movement', but its just not working, the numbers are only increasing in every country and society

    Till now not a single good refutation has been brought on this thread against his dawah,

    Reminds me of this saying (not that I think other Muslims are dogs)
    القافلة تسير والكلاب تنبح
    The caravan moves while the dogs bark

  30. #109
    hating on progressives AhlulQuran88's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    People are doing all they can to stop The 'Wahhabi movement', but its just not working, the numbers are only increasing in every country and society

    Till now not a single good refutation has been brought on this thread against his dawah,

    Reminds me of this saying (not that I think other Muslims are dogs)
    القافلة تسير والكلاب تنبح
    The caravan moves while the dogs bark
    And blood shed increases with it's spread

    and that is not to say that there was not widespread ignorance in those days because one needs only to look at some isolated parts of Africa and Asia and bear witness to what muslims are doing to see how bad the ignorance is. I can only imagine how ignorant muslim were 200 years ago but that is not to say that swinging the other way is going to balance things out.

    I feel like Sufism took a wrong turn over the last 300 years and salafism was its counter reaction(Ibn taymiyyah the seed and MIAW the fruit of that that tree) but instead of taking it back to center is swung way to the extremes with as a result a gaping middle that has yet to be filled properly.
    Last edited by AhlulQuran88; 25-08-15 at 09:38 PM.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    People are doing all they can to stop The 'Wahhabi movement', but its just not working, the numbers are only increasing in every country and society

    Till now not a single good refutation has been brought on this thread against his dawah,

    Reminds me of this saying (not that I think other Muslims are dogs)
    القافلة تسير والكلاب تنبح
    The caravan moves while the dogs bark
    the thing is, most 'wahabis' don't even need any of MiAW's works for their beliefs.

  32. #111
    Odan faqir's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    the thing is, most 'wahabis' don't even need any of MiAW's works for their beliefs.
    sure, but in his actions they have an example which the likes of ISIS are desperately trying to follow.....

  33. #112
    Odan faqir's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    People are doing all they can to stop The 'Wahhabi movement', but its just not working, the numbers are only increasing in every country and society

    Till now not a single good refutation has been brought on this thread against his dawah,

    Reminds me of this saying (not that I think other Muslims are dogs)
    القافلة تسير والكلاب تنبح
    The caravan moves while the dogs bark
    there are plenty of refutations - you need only open your eyes: https://hornofsatan.wordpress.com/an...ur-principles/

  34. #113
    An-Najdi abufulaans's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by faqir View Post
    there are plenty of refutations - you need only open your eyes: https://hornofsatan.wordpress.com/an...ur-principles/
    I read all four 'principles of shirk'
    Quite poor tbh, I could probably refute it myself

  35. #114
    Odan faqir's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    i look forward to reading your probable supposedly forthcoming refutation on the blog concerned
    i personally have found all your posts to be quite poor tbh

  36. #115
    An-Najdi abufulaans's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    I'm not going to waste my time refuting such a bad refutation, anyone who understands the Quran well can refute that

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Jazakallahu Khayr Abu Sulayman. Wahabiyya are a big fitnah on this ummah May Allah reward you

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by seeker_of_firdaus View Post
    Jazakallahu Khayr Abu Sulayman. Wahabiyya are a big fitnah on this ummah May Allah reward you
    Very true.
    My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

  39. #118
    Odan ZeeshanParvez's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by AhlulQuran88 View Post
    I feel like Sufism took a wrong turn over the last 300 years and salafism was its counter reaction......but instead of taking it back to center is swung way to the extremes with as a result a gaping middle that has yet to be filled properly.
    Interesting observation.

  40. #119
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by AhlulQuran88 View Post
    And blood shed increases with it's spread

    and that is not to say that there was not widespread ignorance in those days because one needs only to look at some isolated parts of Africa and Asia and bear witness to what muslims are doing to see how bad the ignorance is. I can only imagine how ignorant muslim were 200 years ago but that is not to say that swinging the other way is going to balance things out.

    I feel like Sufism took a wrong turn over the last 300 years and salafism was its counter reaction(Ibn taymiyyah the seed and MIAW the fruit of that that tree) but instead of taking it back to center is swung way to the extremes with as a result a gaping middle that has yet to be filled properly.
    How did Sufism take the wrong turn, please expound???
    My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

  41. #120
    Why So Serious? ya akhi's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    https://youtu.be/mdxAQV3JGlM

    Lot of turns there

 

 

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