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  1. #1
    al-Ash'ari Abu Sulayman's Avatar
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    Exclamation The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than ISIS

    بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

    All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the worlds. And may the peace and blessings be upon the Master of all Messengers - our Prophet Muhammad - and upon his family and companions and those who followed them in goodness until the day of judgement.

    To proceed:

    Al-Salamu 'alaykum wa rahmatullah,

    I've read some threads on this forum and saw that there are people here who dislike the crimes of IS / ISIS against the Muslims and other innocent people, but at the same time they admire Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) and the original Najdi movement. This shows that there is huge amount of lack of information regarding the original Najdi movement and the level of their fanaticism.
    Know that IS / ISIS has not even committed 10 % of that which the original Najdi / Wahhabi movement committed against the Muslims in the time of the first Saudi state.

    The reason why it's important to know about the history of the original Wahhabiyyah is because it's necessary in order to understand the roots of fanaticism of an organization like ISIS and also in order not to be fooled by the deception, lies and propaganda of the Mashayikh of so called "Salafi" movement, who are exploiting the thirst of young people - especially those living in the West - to learn the religion. The reason why young people in the West are easily fooled by these so called "Salafis" is because of the ignorance regarding the [true] religion (i.e. Islam) that is unfortunately prevelant in the West.

    In this thread I'll insha`Allah try to lessen this lack of information concerning the original Najdi movement.

    Before I begin I would like to make an important note: This thread is NOT for the sake of dicussion and argumentation, but rather in order to inform those brother and sisters who don't know the reality of this movement and to warn them from being influenced by them or their descendants (i.e. the "Salafis"). I would also like to request that no one starts blindly defending Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his original followers in time of the first Saudi state, because I'm quite sure that you haven't read some of the Hardcore-Takfiri books of the original Najdis. All the informations that I will mention are from those books. If you want a proof for anything that I'll mention, then please write a comment here and I'll bring you the relevant qoutes in Arabic [from Najdi books] (and summarize its content).


    These are the most important Najdi sources in order to know the reality of this movement:

    - Tarikh Najd by the Wahhabi historian Hussayn bin Ghannam (d. 1225 AH): It's a history book and the author is a supporter and direct student of Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab.
    - 'Unwan al-Majd fi Tarikh Najd by the Wahhabi historian 'Uthman bin Bishr (d. 1288 AH): It's also a history book and the author lived during the time of the first and the second Saudi state. Similar to the book of Ibn Ghannam it's full of shocking passages where the author proudly reports how they attacked the cities of the Arabian peninsula and the surrounding areas and how "the Muslims" (while refering to themselves, i.e. the Najdis) killed the "Mushrikin" and "Murtadin" (while refering to the Muslims of the whole region!).
    - Mufid al-Mustafid fi Kufri Tarik al-Tawhid by Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH): He wrote this book after he had made Takfir upon a whole town in Najd (i.e. Huraymila`) and tried to justify it. The reason for his Takfir was first and foremost that the people of the city didn't support his unjustified Takfir and call to bloodshed anymore.
    - Al-Rasa`il al-Shakhsiyyah: These are the personal letters that Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab sent to the scholars, people of authority and other imporant people. In these letters you'll see him making all kind of crazy statements like making Takfir upon the scholars of his time and claiming that he alone has understood Tawhid.
    - Al-Durar al-Saniyyah: A compilation of statements from Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his [blind] followers (whom the "Salafis" refer to as "scholars of Najd"). It was meant as a defence of their creed.

    So let's now begin with the important part:


    Who are the Wahhabiyyah and who is their leader?

    The Wahhabiyyah are the followers of Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH).
    He was the son of a Hanbali scholar and was born in al-'Uyayynah, a village in Najd. He started to study Islam and to become a student of knowledge (Talib al-'Ilm), but somehow he developed strange and extreme views.

    He became obsessed with graves:
    He regarded the wrong actions concerning the graves, which according to classical understanding are either forbidden (haram) or disliked (makruh), as Shirk akbar (polytheism). He did not stop here: He even regarded actions which are allowed according to all 4 accepted Madhahib of the Ahl al-Sunnah (like for example the seeking of intercession through the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - (i.e. Tashaffu')) as "Shirk akbar" and regarded it as a nullifier of one's Islam.

    When his father saw that his son had developed these strange views and had deviated from the way of the Ahl al-Sunnah, he disallowed him to spread his wrong views. He feared however that his son would be the cause of great tribulations after his demise and he was indeed right with this feeling.

    When his father died, Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab started to try to spread his new call.
    Before I proceed I would like to show you what this person thought about himself, so that you do not have any doubts regarding his deviance from the way of the Ahl al-Sunnah and the Sawad al-A'dham of this Ummah.


    Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab: "No one knows Tawhid except me"

    He said in one of his letters:

    وأنا أخبركم عن نفسي والله الذي لا إله إلا هو لقد طلبت العلم واعتقد من عرفني أن لي معرفة وأنا ذلك الوقت لا أعرف معنى لا إله إلا الله، ولا أعرف دين الإسلام قبل هذا الخير الذي من الله به. وكذلك مشايخي ما منهم رجل عرف ذلك، فمن زعم من علماء العارض أنه عرف معنى لا إله إلا الله أو عرف معنى الإسلام قبل هذا الوقت أو زعم عن مشايخه أن أحداً عرف ذلك فقد كذب وافترى ولبس على الناس ومدح نفسه بما ليس فيه

    "And I inform you about myself - I swear by Allah whom there is none worthy to worship except Him - I have sought knowledge and those who knew me believed that I had knowledge while I did not know the meaning of La Ilaha illa Allah at that time and did not know the religion of Islam before this grace that Allah favored. As well as my teachers (Mashayikh) no one among them knew that. And if someone from the scholars of al-'Aridh (the lands of Najd and surrounding areas) claims that he knew the meaning of La Ilaha illa Allah or knew the meaning of Islam before this time, or claims on behalf of his teachers that someone from them knew that, then he has lied and said falsehood and deceived the people and praised himself with something he does not possess."

    Source: al-Rasa`il al-Shakhsiyyah and al-Durar al-Saniyyah 10/51

    Just look at the arrogance and narcissm of this person and how he claims that he alone knows Tawhid while accusing the scholars (!) of the whole region of not knowing it. And where did this "knowledge" come from if no one teached it him?
    And you'll be surprised how many times he makes such crazy statements in his letters and how he sometimes lies (like for example by accusing anyone who critises him of "Sabb al-Din"/"cursing the religion") in a very clear way without having any shame whatsoever! May Allah ta'ala give him what he deserves!


    What was his connection to the first Saudi state?

    After he was thrown out of his hometown he met the Amir of al-Dir'iyyah (which is a town in Najd), Muhammad bin Sa'ud (d. 1179 AH), in the year 1157 AH. Ibn Sa'ud accepted his call after Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab had told him that the people of Najd and the surrounding were upon "polytheism" and "ignorance" and after he explained to him his new religion. (Ibn Bishr has mentioned the incident.) Ibn Sa'ud and Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab made an alliance and agreed that the polical power shall be for Ibn Sa'ud (and his sons after him) and that the religious power shall be for Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his new ideas. This was the birth of the first Saudi state and he was the "Mufti" of this [accursed] state.


    The first Saudi state: The worst and most bloodthirsty Khawarij in the history!

    After the alliance was made Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab started throwing around with Fatawa of Takfir and to claim that most people of his time were are upon "Shirk akbar" (polytheism), so that the soldiers of the new born Saudi state could take this as a justifcation to fight the surrounding areas and occupy these regions. The Najdis first started with the towns and villages of Najd and attacked them one after the other.

    But they did not stop with Najd. Soon they started to attack the whole Arabian peninsula. They also attacked all surrounding areas like 'Iraq, Sham, Yemen, 'Oman, etc.
    They did no even shy away from making Takfir against the people of Makkah al-mukarramah and Madinah al-munawwarah and harming them and occupying these blessed cities!!

    If you read how the two Wahhabi historians Ibn Ghannam and Ibn Bishr proudly and without any shame reported these incidents you'll be shocked. They reported how they made Takfir upon whole towns and villages, attacked them and killed them on the streets, the markets and even in their houses. They even killed the Amir of al-'Uyayynah inside the mosque (!!!) after he had prayed the Salat al-Jum'ah. (Not even the houses of Allah had any sanctity for them!)
    They also reported how they burned and destroyed the fields of Muslims (while referring to them as "polytheists" and "apostates"), robbed and stole from them whatever they could take!
    They even reported what a great fear their attacks caused in the heart of the people (this was during their attack on al-Sham) or how the people - innocent Muslim men and women!!! - ran away from them and died from hunger and thirst in the desert (this is what happened to the people of al-Riyadh) or how the people fled to the ocean and drowned in the water (this happened to the people of al-Basrah). They also reported how they made an embargo against different cities which caused the people to die from hunger (this happened to the people Makkah al-mukarramah!).


    And as if all of these crimes are not enough: When they occupied Makkah al-mukarramah they stopped the people from the other Muslim lands from making Hajj for several years, because they regarded all of them to be "polytheists" and "apostates". The first time this happened in the year 1221 AH.

    When their tyranny and bloodshed had reached its peak, the Ottomans - who were the biggest "Mushrikin" (polytheists) upon this earth according the Najdis - decided to stop these criminal Mariqin and Khawarij and to retake every single city that they had occupied. The Ottomans crushed their Khariji state and the first Saudi state ceased to exist by the help of Allah and his permission.


    What is build upon deviation does not lead to anything except more deviation:

    After the first state they had a second state, but the second state was only in Najd and was weak compared to their first state. As for the third state: It's the current Saudi state and it was build upon treason against the whole Ummah of Islam.

    In the time of their first State the Wahhabiyyah were hated by all Muslims of the region (because everyone saw and knew of their crimes) and the people did not accept their views. However when time passed by the people started to forget about them.

    During the third state (i.e. the actual one) the government started to spread the so called "Salafi" Da'wah with huge amounts of money (because there is still an alliance between the Saudi rulers and the Wahhabi Al al-Shaykhs, who are the descendents of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab). This and the widespread ignorance regarding the religion in our times are the main reason why the "Salafis" have spread. It should be noted that the so called "Salafi" Da'wah has nothing to do with the Salaf al-salih or the Ahl al-Sunnah. It's the result of a mix of the ideas of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and some other controversial personalities.

    So beware from whom you take religion and do not let these deceivers influence you.

    And our last call is that all praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds. And may the peace and blessings be upon our Master Muhammad - the seal of the Prophets and Messengers - and upon all of his familiy and companions.

  2. #41
    موحد Abd al-Rahman's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by PiriReis View Post
    True a huge bulk of Najd was not ruled directly by the Ottomans. But Makkah and Medinah were Ottoman territories. And Ibn Abdul Wahhab's rebellion did reach the two holy cities. Plus they attacked Ottoman trade routes.

    That rebellion was efficiently crushed in a punitive war. Diriyah was completely destroyed. Abdullah ibn Saud was executed.

    Later on in World War I, the same Saudis sided with the British against the Ottomans.

    Or were you guys happy when the Ottomans lost control of everything and the Europeans got to carve out the entire region for themselves?

    Wahhabis of those times also did not view Turks worthy enough to rule the Islamic world. They upheld a false belief that only Arabs could rule.
    Im not going to wade into this ethnic mess, all I know is that OP is slandering a magnificent sheikh of islam and he needs to stop
    وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
    They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

  3. #42
    Senior Member PiriReis's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
    Sheikh Muhammad Ibn Abdul-Wahhab(rahimahullah ta'ala) was an extinguisher of kufr and shirk. He hated bid'ah and kufr and he fought against those practices in the 18th century Arabian peninsula

    Because he hated kufr, shirk and bid'ah, 99.99% of his enemies are
    1. Deviant sufis
    2. Rafidah
    3. Qadianis
    4. Modernist munafiqun
    5. Kuffar who don't even know who he is
    6. Barelvis who believe the Nabi(saw) is everywhere
    According to you. According to Ottoman records, he lead a violent rebellion against Amir ul-Mu'minin, Sultan Mahmud II.

    Now tell me, is it permissible to rebel against a Muslim ruler?

  4. #43
    موحد Abd al-Rahman's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by PiriReis View Post
    According to you. According to Ottoman records, he lead a violent rebellion against Amir ul-Mu'minin, Sultan Mahmud II.

    Now tell me, is it permissible to rebel against a Muslim ruler?
    Ikhtilaf between the scholars
    وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
    They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

  5. #44
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
    Ikhtilaf between the scholars
    That's strange because it would seem like most Saudi scholars nowadays are against rebellion against any ruler (especially Al-Saud) under most circumstances.

    The ikhtilaf is very convenient here.
    The Messenger (SAW) said, "There will come a time when the nations gather against you, just as people gather around a feast” Someone asked, “Will that be because of our small numbers at that time?”He (SAW) replied, “No, you will be numerous at that time: but you will be froth and scum like that carried down by a torrent (of water), and Allah will take the fear of you from the breasts (hearts) of your enemy and cast al-wahn into your hearts.”

  6. #45
    abu sab'a
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
    Ikhtilaf between the scholars
    Quote Originally Posted by abdullahore View Post
    That's strange because it would seem like most Saudi scholars nowadays are against rebellion against any ruler (especially Al-Saud) under most circumstances.

    The ikhtilaf is very convenient here.
    Not all ikhtilaf has basis

    THIS is the problem today. Just because someone some of us may recognise as a scholar or authority doesn't make it correct. Even the great scholars had ikhtilaf but then reconciled when presented with evidence. Today we seem unable to accept this

    Basically not all ikhtilaf is legit

  7. #46
    Odan
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by abdullahore View Post
    That's strange because it would seem like most Saudi scholars nowadays are against rebellion against any ruler (especially Al-Saud) under most circumstances.

    The ikhtilaf is very convenient here.
    most these days set the condition of open kufr or anti-shariah in order to make the rebellion permissible which is a legit reason actually in this case it becomes obligation for people to put someone out of the power position, However there are scholars (even salafi/wahabi ones) who say rebellion against unjust ruler or tyrannical ruler even if he is Muslim is not haraam, it depends on the situation and have weight the pro and cons eg: if we are certain that the aftermath evil is less compare to the greater evil of the unjust ruler.

  8. #47
    Odan
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    however it doesn't mean we have to bring chaos in the name of "rebellion to remove unjust ruler", this is the what most people will do in the name of protest especially the ill tampered impatient muslims of today who are half baked muslims anyway.

  9. #48
    أحمد‎ Muslim First's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by abdullahore View Post
    That's strange because it would seem like most Saudi scholars nowadays are against rebellion against any ruler (especially Al-Saud) under most circumstances.

    The ikhtilaf is very convenient here.
    Good point.
    "The organisation that is called as "the state" puts effort to destroy jihad in Sham as they destroyed it in Iraq because of their obvious transgressions against Quran and Sunnah." Abu Khalid as-Suri (Rahimahullah)

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Uthman Ibn Afan View Post
    The description of the khawarij described in hadith are the timeless characterisitics. The exact beliefs of various khariji groups differed from time to time but their actions and enmity to the main body of Muslims is something that remained.

    So in the same way we can say ISIS are the khawarij of our era even though they acknowledge the khulafa ar-rashideen, the same way ibn Aabideen said about the original Wahabis.

    I'm not saying they were or were not khawarij, just acknowledging that Sunni scholars of their era did call them that.
    Good point

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    This is off topic, but what happened to the ISIS thread in current events, was it closed or am I banned from it? Does a mod know?

  12. #51
    New Grand Mufti of Ummah Fais's Avatar
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    These same arguments were made on Islamic awakening by a member name ... Pluto?

    I can't remember his name.

    Interesting read.
    If you were in the clouds, Allah would raise us to you or lower you to us for battle.

    said this to the Byzantine troops when they retreated from the battle field to the fortified town of Chalcis.

    - Khalid ibn Walid

  13. #52
    wal 'aqibatulil muttaqeen Uthman Ibn Afan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fais View Post
    These same arguments were made on Islamic awakening by a member name ... Pluto?

    I can't remember his name.

    Interesting read.
    Pluma
    http://kondori.wordpress.com/

    Like this page on FB
    HasbunAllah Wani'mal Wakeel | حسبنا الله ونعم الوكيل

    Allah is Sufficient for us, and He is the Best Disposer of affairs.

    "...its better to light a small candle than to curse the darkness..."

    "We need to emphasise that differences of fiqh are the not the depth of religion, the depth of religion is piety." ~
    Shaykh Akram Nadwi


    Salātullāhi wa Salāmuhu ‘alayka ya Rasūlallāh


    http://37.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj...2vbxo1_500.jpg

  14. #53
    Odan Poster's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Fais View Post
    These same arguments were made on Islamic awakening by a member name ... Pluto?

    I can't remember his name.

    Interesting read.
    Quote Originally Posted by Uthman Ibn Afan View Post
    Pluma

    Didn't Abu Sulayman (the OP) also make this exact thread (on wahabis being khawarij) on IA?

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    wal 'aqibatulil muttaqeen Uthman Ibn Afan's Avatar
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    The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than ISIS

    Yeah they're different people. Abu Sulayman had a bigger agenda which looked like was to promote the Ashaa'irah whereas Pluma was willing to discuss the historical events.
    http://kondori.wordpress.com/

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    HasbunAllah Wani'mal Wakeel | حسبنا الله ونعم الوكيل

    Allah is Sufficient for us, and He is the Best Disposer of affairs.

    "...its better to light a small candle than to curse the darkness..."

    "We need to emphasise that differences of fiqh are the not the depth of religion, the depth of religion is piety." ~
    Shaykh Akram Nadwi


    Salātullāhi wa Salāmuhu ‘alayka ya Rasūlallāh


    http://37.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lj...2vbxo1_500.jpg

  16. #55
    SUFI HANAFI
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    I knew I read it somewhere before.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdalla94' View Post
    Didn't Abu Sulayman (the OP) also make this exact thread (on wahabis being khawarij) on IA?
    There has been loads of threads on miaw in IA, some Asharis like Abu Suleiman and others were Athari in AQeedah

  18. #57
    al-Ash'ari Abu Sulayman's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) accuses the people of al-Ahsa` of worshipping idols:

    While addressing someone who is from al-Ahsa`, he tells him that idols are worshipped in his land (which is again a clear-cut lie!):

    وقد بلغني أنكم في هذا الأمر قمتم وقعدتم، فإن كنتم تزعمون أن هذا إنكار للمنكر، فيا ليت قيامكم كان في عظائم في بلدكم تضاد أصلي الإسلام: شهادة أن لا إله إلا الله وأن محمداً رسول الله! منها، وهو أعظمها: عبادة الأصنام عندكم من بشر وحجر

    Source:
    al-Rasa`il al-Shakhsiyyah

    His blind followers attacked al-Ahsa` (which by the way is Ottoman land!), slaughtered its people, destroyed their property and stole whatever they could take several times during his lifetime and also after him. So let's see what they did in one of these attacks:


    Terrorizing and mass-slaugtering the people of al-Ahsa`

    Ibn Bishr (d. 1288 AH) said while speaking about the incidents of the year 1210 AH:

    فلما كان قبل طلوع الشمس ثور المسلمون بنادقهم دفعة واحدة , فأرجفت الأرض وأظلمت السماء , وثار عج الدخان في الجو , وأسقط كثير من الحوامل في الأحساء , ثم نزل سعود في الرقيقة المذكورة , فسلم له , وظهر له جميع أهل الأحساء على إحسانه وإساءته , وأمرهم بالخروج فخرجوا , فأقام في ذلك المنزل مدّة أشهر يقتل من أراد قتله ويجلي من أراد جلاءه ، ويحبس من أراد حبسه ، ويأخذ من الأموال ، ويهدم من المحال ، ويبني ثغوراً ، ويهدم دوراً ، وضرب عليهم ألوفاً من الدراهم وقبضها منهم ... وأكثر سعود فيهم القتل ... فهذا مقتول في البلد ، وهذا يخرجونه إلى الخيام ، ويضرب عنقه عند خيمة سعود ، حتى أفناهم إلا قليلا ، وحاز سعود من الأموال في تلك الغزوة ما لا يعد ولا يحصى

    "Then before the sunrise the Muslims (read: the Wahhabis) shot with their rifles [all at] once, so that the earth trembled, and the heaven became dark, and smoke rose into the sky and many of the pregnant women (!!!) in al-Ahsa` had a miscarriage (due to extreme fear).
    Then Sa'ud settled in the [earlier] mentioned al-Raqiqah, so it was given to him. All of the people of al-Ahsa` [then] appeared in front of him in kindness and badness. He commanded them to leave so they left.
    He stayed there for [several] months [while] kiling whomever he wanted to kill, and exiling whomever he wanted to exile, and imprisoning whomever he wanted to imprison, and taking from the wealth, and destroying places, and building strongholds, and destroying houses and wanting thousands of Dirhams from them and taking it from them...
    And Sa'ud killed many of them...
    So this one [lies] killed in the land and that one is taken out to the tents and his neck is struck off near the tent of Sa'ud until he annhalited [all of] them except very few.

    Sa'ud came into possesion of [much] wealth in this attack (Ghazwah) which can not be counted or numbered."

    Source: 'Unwan al-Majd 1/216-217

    (Remember: Sa'ud I. bin 'Abd al-'Aziz [bin Muhammad bin Sa'ud] (d. 1229 AH) later on (i.e. 1218 AH) became the third ruler of the first Saudi state and was a direct student of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab.)

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
    I bet the writer of this believes in haazir naazir, I bet the writer belives Rassullulah(saw) has knowledge of the unseen and that he is in Bristol and Mogadishu and Johannesberg and Lahore and in my house all at the same time. Audhubillahi minash shaytan ir rajeem
    loooooooooooool at bristol and mogadishu. A teleporting prophet audubillah

    Reminds me of snake nazim who said he could fly.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Dinobot View Post
    loooooooooooool at bristol and mogadishu. A teleporting prophet audubillah

    Reminds me of snake nazim who said he could fly.
    And Ahmed barelvi had no evidence for any of it
    وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
    They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by PiriReis View Post
    True a huge bulk of Najd was not ruled directly by the Ottomans. But Makkah and Medinah were Ottoman territories. And Ibn Abdul Wahhab's rebellion did reach the two holy cities. Plus they attacked Ottoman trade routes.

    That rebellion was efficiently crushed in a punitive war. Diriyah was completely destroyed. Abdullah ibn Saud was executed.

    Later on in World War I, the same Saudis sided with the British against the Ottomans.

    Or were you guys happy when the Ottomans lost control of everything and the Europeans got to carve out the entire region for themselves?

    Wahhabis of those times also did not view Turks worthy enough to rule the Islamic world. They upheld a false belief that only Arabs could rule.


    Shaykh ul Islam when to jihad with the grave worshippers . He and the Saudi king allied and stopped this . But when the king was killed the Saudi royal family lost their love for Islam and jihad .

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    The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than ISIS

    I find some of the posts in this thread offensive in the way people are mentioning Rasulullah salallahu 'alayhi wasalam.

    Let us not forget al-isra wal miraaj where when Rasulullah came back from the narrations mention his pillow was still warm as if he had only just left it. When I read some of the comments by MUSLIMS here it reminds me of the way Quraysh were mocking Rasulullah.

    By all means criticise and refute the false beliefs that some people hold but there is a way to do that. If you can't do that without posting such comments then you're better of not posting at all.
    http://kondori.wordpress.com/

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    Allah is Sufficient for us, and He is the Best Disposer of affairs.

    "...its better to light a small candle than to curse the darkness..."

    "We need to emphasise that differences of fiqh are the not the depth of religion, the depth of religion is piety." ~
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Uthman Ibn Afan View Post
    I always wondered why a great scholar of his time like ibn Aabideen al-Hanafi from Shaam would call his movement the khawarij of his era.

    Theres no smoke without fire as they say.
    false rumors about his movement were rampant it seems.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by PiriReis View Post
    According to you. According to Ottoman records, he lead a violent rebellion against Amir ul-Mu'minin, Sultan Mahmud II.

    Now tell me, is it permissible to rebel against a Muslim ruler?
    He never rebelled. The people of Najd were not in the control of the Ottomans

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
    I bet the writer of this believes..., I bet the writer belives...
    Just look at the state that you're in. "I bet the writer believes this and that..."?
    What is wrong with you that you have such a bad opinion about other Muslims?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
    I bet the writer of this believes in haazir naazir,
    This expression is first and foremost used in the indian subcontinent and since I'm not from there I don' use it. But as far as I know the intention with this expression is not what you think (i.e. the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - being literally present everywhere), but rather that our deeds are presented to the Prophet, 'alahis salatu was salam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
    I bet the writer belives Rassullulah(saw) has knowledge of the unseen
    Let's first make a differentiation between the knowledge of the Creator and that of the creation:
    The knowledge of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is eternal, personal, all-encompassing and infinite, while the knowledge of the creation is limited and acquired.
    Some of the creation however has been given more knowledge than others.

    Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alahi wa sallam - is the best of creation and the most knowledgabe of them. Allah ta'ala has given him knowledge regarding many unseen matters and that's how he - 'alahis salatu was salam - has narrated us regarding events that will happen in the future.

    Read also this: Knowledge of the Unseen by Imām al-Nawawī

    Quote Originally Posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
    and that he is in Bristol and Mogadishu and Johannesberg and Lahore and in my house all at the same time.
    I don't believe that. I would however like to mention three points in this context:

    - Being in place - no matter whether it's in every place or in one place - is not from among the divine attributes. Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is beyond the universe and his existance is completely independent from time and place.

    - Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - knows the state of his Ummah and their deeds, because these informations are presented to him as it's established through the narrations. Read this here: ...And My Death is a Great Good For You by Shaykh Mahmud Mamduh

    Imam al-Qurtubi (d. 671 AH) said:

    ابن المبارك، أخبرنا رجل من الأنصار، عن المنهال بن عمرو، حدثنا أنه سمع سعيد بن المسيب يقول: ليس من يوم إلا تعرض على النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أمته غدوة وعشية فيعرفهم بسماهم وأعمالهم فلذلك يشهد عليهم يقول الله تبارك وتعالى: {فكيف إذا جئنا من كل أمة بشهيد وجئنا بك على هؤلاء شهيداً} . فصل: قلت: قد تقدم أن الأعمال تعرض على الله تعالى يوم الخميس ويوم الأثنين، وعلى الأنبياء والآباء والأمهات يوم الجمعة ولا تعارض، فإنه يحتمل أن يخص نبينا عليه السلام بالعرض كل يوم ويوم الجمعة مع الأنبياء


    "(It has been narrated that) Ibn al-Mubārak narrated with his chain to al-Minhāl ibn ‘Amr who narrated that he heard Sa’īd ibn al-Musayyib say: ‘There is not a day, except that on it, the actions of the Ummah are presented to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم, both in the morning and the evening. So, he knows them by their deeds and appearances, and it is due to that he will bear witness against them. Allāh the Exalted said:

    So how will it be when We bring every nation with a witness and bring you as a witness over these’’

    It has proceeded, that the deeds are presented to Allāh the Blessed and Exalted on Thursday and Monday and (the deeds are presented) to the Prophets and fathers and mothers on Friday and there is no contradiction, for it is possible that it is specific to the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم that the deeds are presented to him every day and on Friday with the other Prophets."

    Source:
    al-Tadhkirah and the next page; translation taken from here: Tawassul and Istighatha by Imām Ibn al-Hājj al-`Abdarī

    - It's possible for the souls of the Prophets - and even that of non-prophets! - to move after death. If you look at the incident of al-Isra` wal Mi'raj you will see that Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - met many different Prophets and Messengers even though they had died a long time ago.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Riyadh View Post
    Shaykh ul Islam when to jihad with the grave worshippers . He and the Saudi king allied and stopped this .
    Do you realize how dangerous your words are? You're not just accusing other Muslims of "grave worship" without knowledge, but even making their blood allowed to be spilled by the Najdi Shayatin? Fear Allah!

    Read this narration:

    أن حذيفة حدثه قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : " إن ما أتخوف عليكم رجل قرأ القرآن حتى رئيت بهجته عليه ، وكان ردئا للإسلام ، غيره إلى ما شاء الله ، فانسلخ منه ونبذه وراء ظهره ، وسعى على جاره بالسيف ، ورماه بالشرك " ، قال : قلت : يا نبي الله ، أيهما أولى بالشرك ، المرمي أم الرامي ؟ قال : " بل الرامي

    Hudhaifa reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, I fear for you that a man will recite the Quran until his delight is seen and he takes Islam as a cloak. Then, he changes to whatever Allah wills for him, such that it is stripped from him and he throws it behind his back, assaulting his neighbor with the sword and accusing him of idolatry.” I said, “O Prophet of Allah, which one is closer to idolatry? The accused or the accuser?” The Prophet said, “Rather it is the accuser.”

    Source: Sahih Ibn Hibban, tranlation taken from HERE

    Quote Originally Posted by Al Riyadh View Post
    grave worshipping
    You and some other people are using the expression "grave worship" while being ignorant of the Ahkam (rulings) that the classical scholars mentioned in this context. These actions concerning the graves are not "Shirk akbar"! In my opening post I mentioned that some of these actions are disliked, some are forbidden and some are even allowed.

    To act as if Tawhid and Shirk is all about graves is an innovation. Read any classical Matn of 'Aqidah and you won't see a sinlge word about graves.

    Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - said:

    يَكُونُ فِي آخِرِ الزَّمَانِ دَجَّالُونَ كَذَّابُونَ يَأْتُونَكُمْ مِنَ الأَحَادِيثِ بِمَا لَمْ تَسْمَعُوا أَنْتُمْ وَلاَ آبَاؤُكُمْ فَإِيَّاكُمْ وَإِيَّاهُمْ لاَ يُضِلُّونَكُمْ وَلاَ يَفْتِنُونَكُمْ

    "There will be in the end of time charlatan liars coming to you with narrations that you nor your fathers heard, so beware of them lest they misguide you and cause you tribulations."

    Source: Sahih Muslim

    It should be noted that many among those who are obsessed about graves and think that Tawhid and Shirk is all about graves are ignorant regarding Allah ta'ala and his attributes. That's why you will see the Mashayikh of the so called "Salafiyyah" ascribing Allah ta'ala Sifat 'Ayniyyah (i.e. tangible attributes) and claiming that Allah is a Mahall for Hawadith (i.e. is subject to changes) and other such Kufriyyat. (I'm not mentioning that in order to make Takfir upon them.)
    High Exalted is Allah above what the oppressors claim!

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Uthman Ibn Afan View Post
    I find some of the posts in this thread offensive in the way people are mentioning Rasulullah salallahu 'alayhi wasalam.

    Let us not forget al-isra wal miraaj where when Rasulullah came back from the narrations mention his pillow was still warm as if he had only just left it. When I read some of the comments by MUSLIMS here it reminds me of the way Quraysh were mocking Rasulullah.

    By all means criticise and refute the false beliefs that some people hold but there is a way to do that. If you can't do that without posting such comments then you're better of not posting at all.
    Very true. Barakallahu fik.

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Uthman Ibn Afan View Post
    I always wondered why a great scholar of his time like ibn Aabideen al-Hanafi from Shaam would call his movement the khawarij of his era.

    Theres no smoke without fire as they say.
    false rumors about his movement were rampant it seems.
    It would be better for you to get out of this cultist mentality and start investigating and learning before admirding such an evil movement.

    Imam Ibn 'Abidin lived from 1198 AH till 1252 AH. The first Saudi state existed from 1157 AH until 1234 AH. The Wahhabiyyah attacked al-Sham al-sharif (and Imam Ibn 'Abidin was from Sham!) in the year 1225 AH.

    And Imam Ibn 'Abidin was not alone in his rejection of the Wahhabi movement: Literally ALL scholars from the 4 Madhahib of the whole region were against the Najdi Shayatin. Imam al-Sawi (d. 1241 AH) even referred to them as Hizb al-Shaytan!

    Quote Originally Posted by emirali View Post
    He never rebelled. The people of Najd were not in the control of the Ottomans
    This is not correct. I've already replied regarding that HERE in this thread.

    What I really don't get is what these "Salafi" Mashayikh have done to your brains that you people are ready to defend this movement blindly and no matter what one tells you.
    I mean you had opened a thread just two days before I opened this thread here, where you were asking regarding the first Saudi state and about why they fought against the Ottomans. And now suddenly you're trying to make statements about what happened back then!?

    Najd was under the indirect control of the Ottomans, but this point is not even important. The "Salafi" Mashayikh of today are only mentioning this in order to distract their followers from some very important informations:
    The Wahhabiyyah were SLAUGHTERING Muslims in huge numbers and taking their wealth and destroying their property not just in Najd, but also in all areas around it.
    It is established with absolute certainity that they attacked al-Ahsa`, al-'Iraq, al-Sham, al-Hijaz (including the Haramayn al-Sharifayn!), al-Yaman and other areas. All of that is Ottoman land.
    Just read what the Wahhabi historian Ibn Bishr (d. 1288 AH) reported. He has mentioned all of these attacks.

    And if you want to claim that only the followers of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) were crazy and that they had misunderstood him, then let me tell you that he was the Mufti of the first Saudi state (and after him his sons!).
    And not just that! He openly commanded his followers to attack other Muslims and he even prepared the fighters and sent out the Saraya [to kill the believers of the Arabian peninsula]. You don't believe me? Should I qoute what Ibn Bishr said?

    If you look at the post where one of their attacks against al-Ahsa` (which is Ottoman land!) has been mentioned, you'll see that I also mentioned that they had attacked it several times DURING the lifetime of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and after him.
    All of this is reported by Ibn Bishr, but what should do we with a people who are refusing to read?

    Do you know what Allah ta'ala said regarding the one who kills a believer?:

    { وَمَن يَقْتُلْ مُؤْمِناً مُّتَعَمِّداً فَجَزَآؤُهُ جَهَنَّمُ خَٰلِداً فِيهَا وَغَضِبَ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَلَعَنَهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُ عَذَاباً عَظِيماً }

    { Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom. }

    [4:93]

    So what about slaughtering thousands of Muslims on the Arabian peninsula?

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Do you realize how dangerous your words are? You're not just accusing other Muslims of "grave worship" without knowledge, but even making their blood allowed to be spilled by the Najdi Shayatin? Fear Allah!

    Read this narration:

    أن حذيفة حدثه قال : قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم : " إن ما أتخوف عليكم رجل قرأ القرآن حتى رئيت بهجته عليه ، وكان ردئا للإسلام ، غيره إلى ما شاء الله ، فانسلخ منه ونبذه وراء ظهره ، وسعى على جاره بالسيف ، ورماه بالشرك " ، قال : قلت : يا نبي الله ، أيهما أولى بالشرك ، المرمي أم الرامي ؟ قال : " بل الرامي

    Hudhaifa reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, I fear for you that a man will recite the Quran until his delight is seen and he takes Islam as a cloak. Then, he changes to whatever Allah wills for him, such that it is stripped from him and he throws it behind his back, assaulting his neighbor with the sword and accusing him of idolatry.” I said, “O Prophet of Allah, which one is closer to idolatry? The accused or the accuser?” The Prophet said, “Rather it is the accuser.”

    Source: Sahih Ibn Hibban, tranlation taken from HERE



    You and some other people are using the expression "grave worship" while being ignorant of the Ahkam (rulings) that the classical scholars mentioned in this context. These actions concerning the graves are not "Shirk akbar"! In my opening post I mentioned that some of these actions are disliked, some are forbidden and some are even allowed.

    To act as if Tawhid and Shirk is all about graves is an innovation. Read any classical Matn of 'Aqidah and you won't see a sinlge word about graves.

    Rasulullah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - said:

    يَكُونُ فِي آخِرِ الزَّمَانِ دَجَّالُونَ كَذَّابُونَ يَأْتُونَكُمْ مِنَ الأَحَادِيثِ بِمَا لَمْ تَسْمَعُوا أَنْتُمْ وَلاَ آبَاؤُكُمْ فَإِيَّاكُمْ وَإِيَّاهُمْ لاَ يُضِلُّونَكُمْ وَلاَ يَفْتِنُونَكُمْ

    "There will be in the end of time charlatan liars coming to you with narrations that you nor your fathers heard, so beware of them lest they misguide you and cause you tribulations."

    Source: Sahih Muslim

    It should be noted that many among those who are obsessed about graves and think that Tawhid and Shirk is all about graves are ignorant regarding Allah ta'ala and his attributes. That's why you will see the Mashayikh of the so called "Salafiyyah" ascribing Allah ta'ala Sifat 'Ayniyyah (i.e. tangible attributes) and claiming that Allah is a Mahall for Hawadith (i.e. is subject to changes) and other such Kufriyyat. (I'm not mentioning that in order to make Takfir upon them.)
    High Exalted is Allah above what the oppressors claim!
    Go read Kitab at-Tawheed by the Sheikh ul Islam and you'll realize how misguided you are. The Sheikh was a sworn enemy of kufr and shirk. There were practices that constituted shirk like wearing of amulets and and grave worship in 18th century Arabia and the Sheikh(May Alah have mercy on him) fought against this.
    وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
    They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Brother op, im loving these articles, you got any more?

    Jazakallah Khayra

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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    It would be better for you to get out of this cultist mentality and start investigating and learning before admirding such an evil movement.

    Imam Ibn 'Abidin lived from 1198 AH till 1252 AH. The first Saudi state existed from 1157 AH until 1234 AH. The Wahhabiyyah attacked al-Sham al-sharif (and Imam Ibn 'Abidin was from Sham!) in the year 1225 AH.

    And Imam Ibn 'Abidin was not alone in his rejection of the Wahhabi movement: Literally ALL scholars from the 4 Madhahib of the whole region were against the Najdi Shayatin. Imam al-Sawi (d. 1241 AH) even referred to them as Hizb al-Shaytan!



    This is not correct. I've already replied regarding that HERE in this thread.

    What I really don't get is what these "Salafi" Mashayikh have done to your brains that you people are ready to defend this movement blindly and no matter what one tells you.
    I mean you had opened a thread just two days before I opened this thread here, where you were asking regarding the first Saudi state and about why they fought against the Ottomans. And now suddenly you're trying to make statements about what happened back then!?

    Najd was under the indirect control of the Ottomans, but this point is not even important. The "Salafi" Mashayikh of today are only mentioning this in order to distract their followers from some very important informations:
    The Wahhabiyyah were SLAUGHTERING Muslims in huge numbers and taking their wealth and destroying their property not just in Najd, but also in all areas around it.
    It is established with absolute certainity that they attacked al-Ahsa`, al-'Iraq, al-Sham, al-Hijaz (including the Haramayn al-Sharifayn!), al-Yaman and other areas. All of that is Ottoman land.
    Just read what the Wahhabi historian Ibn Bishr (d. 1288 AH) reported. He has mentioned all of these attacks.

    And if you want to claim that only the followers of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) were crazy and that they had misunderstood him, then let me tell you that he was the Mufti of the first Saudi state (and after him his sons!).
    And not just that! He openly commanded his followers to attack other Muslims and he even prepared the fighters and sent out the Saraya [to kill the believers of the Arabian peninsula]. You don't believe me? Should I qoute what Ibn Bishr said?

    If you look at the post where one of their attacks against al-Ahsa` (which is Ottoman land!) has been mentioned, you'll see that I also mentioned that they had attacked it several times DURING the lifetime of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and after him.
    All of this is reported by Ibn Bishr, but what should do we with a people who are refusing to read?

    Do you know what Allah ta'ala said regarding the one who kills a believer?:

    { وَمَن يَقْتُلْ مُؤْمِناً مُّتَعَمِّداً فَجَزَآؤُهُ جَهَنَّمُ خَٰلِداً فِيهَا وَغَضِبَ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَلَعَنَهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُ عَذَاباً عَظِيماً }

    { Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom. }

    [4:93]

    So what about slaughtering thousands of Muslims on the Arabian peninsula?
    And tell me where it says numbers matter?
    'Literally ALL scholars from the 4 Madhahib of the whole region were against the Najdi Shayatin.'
    So what? Sometimes a minority are correct and sometimes the majority
    The problem is you are saying they attacked Muslims while they said they were attacking kuffar and murtaddoon, you need to prove the people did not fall into shirk at that time

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    موحد Abd al-Rahman's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    It would be better for you to get out of this cultist mentality and start investigating and learning before admirding such an evil movement.

    Imam Ibn 'Abidin lived from 1198 AH till 1252 AH. The first Saudi state existed from 1157 AH until 1234 AH. The Wahhabiyyah attacked al-Sham al-sharif (and Imam Ibn 'Abidin was from Sham!) in the year 1225 AH.

    And Imam Ibn 'Abidin was not alone in his rejection of the Wahhabi movement: Literally ALL scholars from the 4 Madhahib of the whole region were against the Najdi Shayatin. Imam al-Sawi (d. 1241 AH) even referred to them as Hizb al-Shaytan!



    This is not correct. I've already replied regarding that HERE in this thread.

    What I really don't get is what these "Salafi" Mashayikh have done to your brains that you people are ready to defend this movement blindly and no matter what one tells you.
    I mean you had opened a thread just two days before I opened this thread here, where you were asking regarding the first Saudi state and about why they fought against the Ottomans. And now suddenly you're trying to make statements about what happened back then!?

    Najd was under the indirect control of the Ottomans, but this point is not even important. The "Salafi" Mashayikh of today are only mentioning this in order to distract their followers from some very important informations:
    The Wahhabiyyah were SLAUGHTERING Muslims in huge numbers and taking their wealth and destroying their property not just in Najd, but also in all areas around it.
    It is established with absolute certainity that they attacked al-Ahsa`, al-'Iraq, al-Sham, al-Hijaz (including the Haramayn al-Sharifayn!), al-Yaman and other areas. All of that is Ottoman land.
    Just read what the Wahhabi historian Ibn Bishr (d. 1288 AH) reported. He has mentioned all of these attacks.

    And if you want to claim that only the followers of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) were crazy and that they had misunderstood him, then let me tell you that he was the Mufti of the first Saudi state (and after him his sons!).
    And not just that! He openly commanded his followers to attack other Muslims and he even prepared the fighters and sent out the Saraya [to kill the believers of the Arabian peninsula]. You don't believe me? Should I qoute what Ibn Bishr said?

    If you look at the post where one of their attacks against al-Ahsa` (which is Ottoman land!) has been mentioned, you'll see that I also mentioned that they had attacked it several times DURING the lifetime of Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and after him.
    All of this is reported by Ibn Bishr, but what should do we with a people who are refusing to read?

    Do you know what Allah ta'ala said regarding the one who kills a believer?:

    { وَمَن يَقْتُلْ مُؤْمِناً مُّتَعَمِّداً فَجَزَآؤُهُ جَهَنَّمُ خَٰلِداً فِيهَا وَغَضِبَ ٱللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَلَعَنَهُ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُ عَذَاباً عَظِيماً }

    { Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom. }

    [4:93]

    So what about slaughtering thousands of Muslims on the Arabian peninsula?
    Do you believe Rasullulah(saw) is everywhere or that he has knowledge of the unseen?
    Do you believe it is halal to make sajdah to other than Allah?
    Do you believe Ahlul bayt are perfect and put them above the anbiyya?
    Do you believe your sheikh can bless something and it will help you?
    Do you believe in pilgrimages to shrines?
    Do you believe the Shari'a isn't necesary anymore and khilafa is useless?
    Do you believe dancing and singing are a form of ibadah?
    Do you accept Abu Bakr(ra) as Khalifa to the Nabi(saw)?
    Do you believe Allah(swt) is above his arsh?
    Do you believe it is halal to wear an amulet for good luck?
    Do you celebrate mawlid?
    Last edited by Abd al-Rahman; 20-05-15 at 12:37 AM.
    وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
    They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

  33. #72
    Odan faqir's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Masha'Allah some good posts here by Abu Sulayman.

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    Odan faqir's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than


  35. #74
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    its enough for me to know that giants of our time like sheikh muhammad salim ibn adud rahimahullah was most knowledgeable Mauritanian scholar taught kitab at tawhid, usool thalatha etc

  36. #75
    al-Ash'ari Abu Sulayman's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by faqir View Post
    Masha'Allah some good posts here by Abu Sulayman.
    Al-salamu 'alaykum,

    how are you, dear brother?

    I've an off-topic question if you don't mind:
    What happened to the Marifah forums?

  37. #76
    Odan faqir's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Al-salamu 'alaykum,

    how are you, dear brother?

    I've an off-topic question if you don't mind:
    What happened to the Marifah forums?
    'alaikum salam
    alhamdulillah all good
    re the forum we had some serious issues which I can't talk about openly. Hopefully we will be able to salvage it and bring it back in some form or other

  38. #77
    Odan Mustafa Mahmud's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
    Im not going to wade into this ethnic mess, all I know is that OP is slandering a magnificent sheikh of islam and he needs to stop
    What happened in the past is over and they will be asked of what they did and we will be asked of what we did. To 99% of the Ummah, these past events are not of any concern.

    Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab was a man. The Ummah is not obliged to follow him or do taqleed of him. If he said anything correct, previous Muslims have said what was correct so it's not like he is irreplaceable.


    Right now it's pretty sad OP is trying to bring his opinion on this at a time it is not going to benefit anyone and we have a rabid pack of backstabbing murderers and thieves creating chaos everywhere they go. It's like telling the Palestinians "Rohingya have it worse than you." It may be true but how on earth is it helpful? Such a foolish thing to bring in your own views which are only going to create harm and no benefit.

  39. #78
    Odan Mustafa Mahmud's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
    Do you believe Rasullulah(saw) is everywhere or that he has knowledge of the unseen?
    Do you believe it is halal to make sajdah to other than Allah?
    Do you believe Ahlul bayt are perfect and put them above the anbiyya?
    Do you believe your sheikh can bless something and it will help you?
    Do you believe in pilgrimages to shrines?
    Do you believe the Shari'a isn't necesary anymore and khilafa is useless?
    Do you believe dancing and singing are a form of ibadah?
    Do you accept Abu Bakr(ra) as Khalifa to the Nabi(saw)?
    Do you believe Allah(swt) is above his arsh?
    Do you believe it is halal to wear an amulet for good luck?
    Do you celebrate mawlid?
    No to everything except what is underlined. Yes to what is underlined and bolded. Allah rose over the throne, this is how Nouman Ali Khan translated it and I believe Nouman Ali Khan's translation. Also, Abu Bakr RA is the best man after the Anbiya and Mursaleen so how can he not be the Khalif after Rasulullah sallahualayhiwasalam.

  40. #79
    موحد Abd al-Rahman's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustafa Mahmud View Post
    No to everything except what is underlined. Yes to what is underlined and bolded. Allah rose over the throne, this is how Nouman Ali Khan translated it and I believe Nouman Ali Khan's translation. Also, Abu Bakr RA is the best man after the Anbiya and Mursaleen so how can he not be the Khalif after Rasulullah sallahualayhiwasalam.
    Mashallah akhi you are sound in 'Aqidah. May Allah bless you and continue to guide you
    وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
    They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

  41. #80
    Odan Mustafa Mahmud's Avatar
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    Re: The original Najdi/ Wahhabi movement was more extreme in bloodshed & Takfir than

    Quote Originally Posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
    Mashallah akhi you are sound in 'Aqidah. May Allah bless you and continue to guide you
    Please help me de with the comparative religion issue.

 

 

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