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    Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    1 ~ The Comforter would come in the life time of Jesus' disciples.. in fact before they depart Jerusalem see Acts 1:4-5, John 16:7 ........ Mohammed was born long after the Comforter must have come, i.e. 500+ years later.

    2 ~ The Comforter is not a physical being and can't be seen ordinarily see John 14:17 ....... Mohammed was a physical being and ordinarily visible.

    3 ~ The Comforter would come from Heaven directly from God see John 15:26..... Mohammed with all due respect, was ordinarily born in this World to parents; grew up ordinarily, became an employed trader etc before he eventually became the Prophet of Islam.

    4 ~ The Comforter, according to Jesus himself, was the Holy Spirit which his disciples Knew because he (the Spirit) was with them and was going to dwell in their mind see John 14:17......... Mohammed never lived with Jesus' disciples and he was a physical being who did not dwell in the mind.

    5 ~ The Comforter would be with Jesus' disciples and, of course the subsequent faithful for ever see John 14:16 .........Mohammed died long ago and has a tomb.

    6 ~ As Jesus promised, the Comforter came to the disciples before they departed Jerusalem see Acts 2:3-4...... Like I said earlier, Mohammed came a distant 6 generations later, and is there any evidence that Mohammed was in Jerusalem at Pentecost?

    7 ~ Jesus said the Comforter would bring to their remembrance His teachings. In preparation for their mission to take the Gospel of Jesus to all peoples.... Mohammed never heard Jesus teach so would have been unable to assist the disciples in this way. Besides Mohammed brought a message that was diametrically opposed to the mission of Jesus.

    So in conclusion.. The Comforter Jesus promised is the Holy Spirit.. Whom proceeded from God and was sent by Jesus..

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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    if jesus pbuh died for the sins of the world then you do not need to repent otherwise what was the point of him dieing on the cross for you. so you can do whatever you like without accountability.

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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    allah is all forgiving, all merciful but there is accountability. if a servant repents to allah they are forgiven as long as they do not commit the same sin again intentionally. the sin that is not forgiven is if they die on shirk which is to set up partners with god (allah) or disbelief. all the prophets before the time of jesus christ pbuh. worshiped god without setting up partners with him jesus christ pbuh did not set himself up as partner with god, for he said worship my lord who is your lord. in the bible it says do not worship any other than god for your god is a jealous god. abraham was not in judaism nor was he a christian but he worshiped god without setting up partners with him. likewise all the other prophets. god did not sent down
    different religions to mankind to send mankind astray from his true path. islam has always been there from the beginning but it was incomplete, it became complete on the coming of muhammad pbuh. when moses pbuh came he came with the law an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, when jesus christ pbuh came he
    Last edited by cloud9; 20-01-16 at 04:54 AM.

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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    allah is all forgiving, all merciful but there is accountability. if a servant repents to allah they are forgiven as long as they do not commit the same sin again intentionally. the sin that is not forgiven is if they die on shirk which is to set up partners with god (allah) or disbelief. all the prophets before the time of jesus christ pbuh. worshiped god without setting up partners with him jesus christ pbuh did not set himself up as partner with god, for he said worship my lord who is your lord. in the bible it says do not worship any other than god for your god is a jealous god. abraham was not in judaism nor was he a christian but he worshiped god without setting up partners with him. likewise all the other prophets. god did not sent down
    different religions to mankind to confuse or send mankind astray from his true path. islam has always been there from the beginning but it was incomplete, it became complete on the coming of muhammad pbuh. when moses pbuh came he came with the law an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, when jesus christ pbuh came he came with forgive, forgive, forgive, muhammad pbuh brought the balance and the completion of the religion of islam.

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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    Quote Originally Posted by cloud9 View Post
    so jesus christ was not created in the womb of the virgin mary if you think he is god the uncreated word
    You seem to find it impossible to distinguish the physical human form of Jesus from the Spiritual aspect of the word. Jesus in His humanity is not God, He is fully man in that respect of course He was created miraculously in the womb of Mary. The essence that is the divine word of God already existed.

    Do you believe you have a soul? Is your soul part of you? When you die does your soul die or does it return to God its creator? You are the sum of your spiritual soul without it your body is an empty shell. Jesus revealed our spiritual God in the flesh.

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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    Quote Originally Posted by cloud9 View Post
    god cannot be man and man cannot be god at the same time.nor at any other time. god cannot be mortal and immortal at the same time. you should worship the creator and not the created.

    there is a surah in the quran that describes god and it is as follows

    there is not god but allah the absolute
    the one and only
    none is born of him and niether is he born
    and there is none like him
    Who says God cannot do something? God of the Bible is omnipotent which means He can do anything, Angel Gabriel said "nothing is impossible with God" God never was a man, God is unchanging, God is One and we worship Him. The Surah you quote reads like a reaction to a misconception of christianity.


    Quote Originally Posted by cloud9 View Post
    allah is eternal and uncreated. but jesus christ pbuh was created in the womb of the virgin mary. the creator does not look like anything of his creation. and does not eli eli sound like allah allah
    Again, you are stuck on the issue of the physical humanity of Jesus. How do you know what the creator looks like? You don't as God the father is unseen. There are many instances in the Bible where God is "seen" in the Bible. In Genesis 32:30, Jacob saw God appearing as a man; he did not truly see God. Samson’s parents were terrified when they realized they had seen God (Judges 13:22), but they had only seen Him appearing as an angel. Jesus was God in the flesh (John 1:1, 14) so when people saw Him, they were seeing God. So, yes, God can be “seen” and many people have “seen” God. At the same time, no one has ever seen God revealed in all His glory. In our fallen human condition, if God were to fully reveal Himself to us, we would be consumed and destroyed. Therefore, God veils Himself and appears in forms in which we can “see” Him. However, this is different than seeing God with all His glory and holiness displayed. People have seen visions of God, images of God, and appearances of God, but no one has ever seen God in all His fullness.

    Words sounding the same mean nothing. Arab christians call God Allah but it's to YHWH God of the Bible they pray to.


    Quote Originally Posted by cloud9 View Post
    and you say that the virgin mary was only a vessel, so she was not the mother of jesus christ pbuh who suckled him, dressed him and washed him and fed him when he was growing up

    also you say that the virgin mary is the mother of god, not that god needs a mother, so she could not have been a vessel
    Of course she was the mother of Jesus and loved and cared for Him as any mother would.

    No, I said no such thing. You are reinventing my words to suit your islamic preconceptions. Mary was not the mother of God. Please think about what you are saying.

    God and His word existed from eternity, from the beginning of creation there was never a time when God was without His word, or how did creation come to being? God is not like His creation, my word is part of me, my spirit is part of me they are an integral part of my physical being. I cannot separate my word or Spirt from my physical being who am I to say God cannot.

    God is greater than His creation and nothing is impossible with God.

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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    Quote Originally Posted by cloud9 View Post
    if jesus pbuh died for the sins of the world then you do not need to repent otherwise what was the point of him dieing on the cross for you. so you can do whatever you like without accountability.
    No we cannot. God Himself through Jesus paid the penalty that His holiness demands to redeem us from our sin. I accept the gift you reject it.

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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    but christians say that mary is the mother of god, and you are saying that jesus was god. god said be and the universe was created, god said be and adam was created, god be and jesus was created. god is nothing like his creation. he is the creator of the heavens and the earth. and your saying that jesus was god in the flesh so if jesus was god and he died on the cross for three days, if god died on the cross for three days then who looked after the world while he was dead. god cannot die and god is not born.
    yhwh is elohim and elohim is elaha which is allah. eli eli is god and allah is god so jesus christ pbuh cried to god not to himself when he said thou hast forsaken me.
    Last edited by cloud9; 20-01-16 at 01:20 PM.

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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    Quote Originally Posted by cloud9 View Post
    allah is all forgiving, all merciful but there is accountability. if a servant repents to allah they are forgiven as long as they do not commit the same sin again intentionally. the sin that is not forgiven is if they die on shirk which is to set up partners with god (allah) or disbelief. all the prophets before the time of jesus christ pbuh. worshiped god without setting up partners with him jesus christ pbuh did not set himself up as partner with god, for he said worship my lord who is your lord. in the bible it says do not worship any other than god for your god is a jealous god. abraham was not in judaism nor was he a christian but he worshiped god without setting up partners with him. likewise all the other prophets. god did not sent down
    different religions to mankind to confuse or send mankind astray from his true path. islam has always been there from the beginning but it was incomplete, it became complete on the coming of muhammad pbuh. when moses pbuh came he came with the law an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, when jesus christ pbuh came he came with forgive, forgive, forgive, muhammad pbuh brought the balance and the completion of the religion of islam.
    God never gave us religion. God asks that we love, obey and worship Him. God of the Bible is all loving, all merciful and all Just. That means He loves all of creation. God gave us free will to worship and believe in Him or not. Islam came with Muhammed, you can say anything you like about all the prophets and Jesus being muslims, but they weren't. To be a muslim one also has to accept the prophet of Islam. The Bible prophets never knew of him. Or can you be a muslim without accepting Muhammed as a prophet. If it's a case of worshipping God alone then all jews and Christians are muslims already and were before Muhammed came along, so where was the need of another prophet. Sorry but your point of all prophets were muslims doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If you say all prophets worshipped the One God then fair enough. Why would God send a religion - Islam that was incomplete, and wait 3000 years to send a prophet to complete it. If it were the case then surely we should expect Islam to be perfect. It's not. It's no different from any other "religion" in as much it doesn't work for all of the people all of the time. That's why God did not give us religion, God knows we are imperfect, He made it easy for us Love, obey and worship Him, for only He is worthy. The Bible prophets didn't confuse the issue of Gods message. It was consistent from the beginning to the end with Christ. Muhammed brought a slightly different message.

    As for straying off the path, I have confidence in Gods Spirit of guidance to keep me on the straight path, He made that clear when He sent the Saviour and Messiah Jesus Christ. Jesus is the culmination of Gods divine plan since the fall.

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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    Quote Originally Posted by cloud9 View Post
    but christians say that mary is the mother of god, and you are saying that jesus was god. god said be and the universe was created, god said be and adam was created, god be and jesus was created. god is nothing like his creation. he is the creator of the heavens and the earth. and your saying that jesus was god in the flesh so if jesus was god and he died on the cross for three days, if god died on the cross for three days then who looked after the world while he was dead. god cannot die and god is not born.
    yhwh is elohim and elohim is elaha which is allah

    Catholics may say that about Mary, it's not what the Bible says. Not all christians are Catholic. I've answered these questions of yours before. You keep repeating the same questions. Maybe someone else could answer them better than eye.

    Peace and blessing to you

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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    you have not answered my question that if jesus pbuh is god in the flesh and he died on the cross for three days who looked after the world for three days while he was dead and also jesus cried out to god eli eli why hast thou forsaken me, he did not cry out to himself. which proves that god and jesus pbuh are two seperate entities. they are not both the same.

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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbed View Post
    1 ~ The Comforter would come in the life time of Jesus' disciples.. in fact before they depart Jerusalem see Acts 1:4-5, John 16:7 ........ Mohammed was born long after the Comforter must have come, i.e. 500+ years later.

    2 ~ The Comforter is not a physical being and can't be seen ordinarily see John 14:17 ....... Mohammed was a physical being and ordinarily visible.

    3 ~ The Comforter would come from Heaven directly from God see John 15:26..... Mohammed with all due respect, was ordinarily born in this World to parents; grew up ordinarily, became an employed trader etc before he eventually became the Prophet of Islam.

    4 ~ The Comforter, according to Jesus himself, was the Holy Spirit which his disciples Knew because he (the Spirit) was with them and was going to dwell in their mind see John 14:17......... Mohammed never lived with Jesus' disciples and he was a physical being who did not dwell in the mind.

    5 ~ The Comforter would be with Jesus' disciples and, of course the subsequent faithful for ever see John 14:16 .........Mohammed died long ago and has a tomb.

    6 ~ As Jesus promised, the Comforter came to the disciples before they departed Jerusalem see Acts 2:3-4...... Like I said earlier, Mohammed came a distant 6 generations later, and is there any evidence that Mohammed was in Jerusalem at Pentecost?

    7 ~ Jesus said the Comforter would bring to their remembrance His teachings. In preparation for their mission to take the Gospel of Jesus to all peoples.... Mohammed never heard Jesus teach so would have been unable to assist the disciples in this way. Besides Mohammed brought a message that was diametrically opposed to the mission of Jesus.

    So in conclusion.. The Comforter Jesus promised is the Holy Spirit.. Whom proceeded from God and was sent by Jesus..
    1. You can refer to future generations" .I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." now he uses the word you for his disciples but we know its talking about his 2nd coming and his disciples are dead. So he cant be referring to his disciples but to future generations

    2. John 14:7 where does it talk about the comforter it something else . Correct me on this 1

    3. U are putting words into jesus's mouth it doesnt say he will come from heaven. In fact it says -he will testify about me. Muhammad testified about Jesus .

    4.the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

    It didnt see him or know him bcause he wasnt alive then. You here is future it could refer to the descendants of the true Christians . He will be in u is not literal it could be interpreted metaphorically. As jesus said i am in the father but we know thats metaphorical because hes not the father. I can say the Quran is in me i dont mean the book its metaphorical to mean the words the teachings the inspiration is in me. So when jesus said he will be in u it can mean the guidance the teaching.

    Its not the holy ghost as he said he will bring ANOTHER and Christians only believe in 1 holy ghost.

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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    Quote Originally Posted by cloud9 View Post
    you have not answered my question that if jesus pbuh is god in the flesh and he died on the cross for three days who looked after the world for three days while he was dead and also jesus cried out to god eli eli why hast thou forsaken me, he did not cry out to himself. which proves that god and jesus pbuh are two seperate entities. they are not both the same.
    I believe I have answered this point and more besides. Numerous times. One in nature and purpose.

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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    I'll give it a go.

    Quote Originally Posted by muslim4life76 View Post
    1. You can refer to future generations" .I am," said Jesus. "And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven." now he uses the word you for his disciples but we know its talking about his 2nd coming and his disciples are dead. So he cant be referring to his disciples but to future generations
    The vision of John found in Revelations was indeed referring to Christ's second coming. However, in the Gospel of John Jesus is talking WITH the disciples, about their future mission in taking His word to all peoples of the world with the guidance of the Spirit IN them. Which we know they did because the gospels were in widespread circulation centuries before Muhammad and Islam.

    2. John 14:7 where does it talk about the comforter it something else . Correct me on this 1
    I read it as John 14:17 which is - 15 “If you love me, keep my commands. 16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever— 17 the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you


    3. U are putting words into jesus's mouth it doesnt say he will come from heaven. In fact it says -he will testify about me. Muhammad testified about Jesus .
    John 14: 25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

    Scripture States the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, God the Father resides in His heavens where else will the Spirit come from? Well, he testified Jesus was the Messiah, born of a virgin but denied what Jesus taught. So jury's out on that one.

    4.the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.

    It didnt see him or know him bcause he wasnt alive then. You here is future it could refer to the descendants of the true Christians . He will be in u is not literal it could be interpreted metaphorically. As jesus said i am in the father but we know thats metaphorical because hes not the father. I can say the Quran is in me i dont mean the book its metaphorical to mean the words the teachings the inspiration is in me. So when jesus said he will be in u it can mean the guidance the teaching.
    But it isn't metaphorical, because we know the Spirit came to the disciples on Pentecost, about forty days after the resurrection of Jesus. You choose to interpret Jesus saying "I am in the father and the Father is in me",and "if you have seen me you have seen the Father". It doesn't change the fact the Jesus made claims of divinity as being One with God. He claimed He is THE way not A way. Many prophets showed the Way to relationship with God through their revelations only Jesus claimed to be THE Way. He was the way the other prophets told about. Except for Muhammad, he taught a different way, which if Jesus was telling the truth about being The Way - has serious consequences for yourselves

    Its not the holy ghost as he said he will bring ANOTHER and Christians only believe in 1 holy ghost.
    Another comforter, Jesus (the Word) and the Spirit are as ONE in eternal purpose, during His time made flesh Jesus was the spiritual "comforter, advocate, teacher" that humanity and the disciples needed, His work on earth completed the eternal Spirit continues the same work in the hearts and minds of believers bringing them to them the understanding of Gods purpose.

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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    we both have different matters of opinion and we should just agree to disagree because we will never see eye to eye

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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    Quote Originally Posted by cloud9 View Post
    we both have different matters of opinion and we should just agree to disagree because we will never see eye to eye
    Probably so, I was just responding to your post. I've already answered your question.

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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    Quote Originally Posted by daniel_agnostic View Post
    Apparently, Christians and Jews were awaiting a new prophet in the 6th century CE: http://www.islamreligion.com/article...hammad-part-1/
    Bump

    Jesus and the Apostles are believed to have spoken Aramaic. Aramaic continued in wide use until about AD 650, when it was supplanted by Arabic.[2] The present day Bible is not, however, based on the Aramaic manuscripts, but on Greek and Latin versions.

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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    Bump

    Jesus and the Apostles are believed to have spoken Aramaic. Aramaic continued in wide use until about AD 650, when it was supplanted by Arabic.[2] The present day Bible is not, however, based on the Aramaic manuscripts, but on Greek and Latin versions.
    Have you heard of Khaboris Codex? Check it out.

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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    Quote Originally Posted by cloud9 View Post
    you have not answered my question that if jesus pbuh is god in the flesh and he died on the cross for three days who looked after the world for three days while he was dead and also jesus cried out to god eli eli why hast thou forsaken me, he did not cry out to himself. which proves that god and jesus pbuh are two seperate entities. they are not both the same.

    Well said.

    Brother, capitalize the firth letter of Allah (swt) and Jesus son of May (pbuh) when you're mentioning them.

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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Have you heard of Khaboris Codex? Check it out.
    Hello.

    Your post is misleading.

    This is a quote from a paper entitled: ‘What English Translation of the Apostolic Scriptures Should I Use? - Assessing the Claims’ produced by Tim Hegg of TorahResource (2011):

    ‘What’s All the Excitement about the Khaboris Codex?

    ‘Some of those who hold that the Syriac Peshitta is the oldest and most trustworthy text of the Apostolic Scriptures have been advertising that the Khaboris Codex (also spelled Khabouris and alternately known as the Yonan Codex) is itself the oldest Peshitta manuscript. For example, in the Introduction to the ‘Aramaic English New Testament’, Roth gives these claims:

    ‘”Keyed and annotated with Tiberian-Masoretic vowel pointing system to restore the sound of Y’shua’s Eastern Aramaic dialect for the Modern Hebrew reader.” (p. i)

    ‘”The Aramaic in this publication is coming from “as close to original” autographs as there is current public access to at the time of printing.” (p. vii)

    ‘”While the age of the Khabouris Codex remains the subject of much debate, there can be no doubt that it ably represents a text group that has much older members. So, while some manuscripts may vary with minor spelling, synonym and syntax variants, this is inevitable over such a long span of time. However, the overall reliability of this text group is thoroughly amazing as it is superior to either Hebrew Tanakh or the Greek New Testament.” (p. xii)

    ‘However, when Bruce Metzger made his own personal examination of the codex, comparing it with Hatch’s ‘Album of Dated Syriac Manuscripts’, he came to conclusion that it dated to “about the 7th Century at the earliest, and perhaps slightly later.” Metzger also gave his impressions of the content of the Khaboris Codex:

    ‘“I examined the manuscript with care, comparing various passages with a copy of the Bible Society’s printed Syriac New Testament that I had brought with me. In the passages that I collated, the text was identical with that of the standard Peshitta Syriac version.”

    ‘Thus, by all accounts, the Khaboris Codex is a 7th Century (or later) witness to the basic text of the Peshitta, and not a witness to an early Aramaic vorlage of the Apostolic Scriptures. It is, by no means, the oldest Syriac manuscript of the Apostolic Scriptures, and though perhaps giving important insight into the medieval Syriac Church, it surely does not offer us a superior witness of the ancient text of the Apostolic Scriptures.

    ‘The Khaboris Codex gained public notoriety in 1955 when Norman Yonan, a businessman from Iran who owned the manuscript, proposed to sell it to the Library of Congress for 1.5 million dollars. An elaborate tour through the Bible Belt of the South was planned in order to solicit contributions to raise three million dollars, half of which would be used to purchase the Codex from Yonan, and the other half to make facsimile copies of the Codex available to institutions of higher learning, as well as to stimulate study of Syriac and “to promote other projects relevant to the dissemination of the faith and knowledge of Christianity.” However, when the Library of Congress sought expert advice regarding the authenticity of the manuscript, a major battle ensued.

    ‘Eventually the Society of Biblical Literature (SBL) became involved since experts in the Syriac language and Bible had openly disputed the fantastic claims being made about the Codex, primarily, that it was the oldest extant Aramaic witness to the New Testament, and that it therefore contained the very language spoken by Yeshua! The SBL drafted a public statement disavowing such claims which concluded with this statement:

    ‘“According to members of our Society who have examined the manuscript, the Yonan Codex is a copy of the Syriac Peshitta, a version which was made from the Greek New Testament at about the beginning of the fifth century and which contains twenty-two of the twenty-seven books of the New Testament. Edessene Syriac, the language of this version, differs considerably from the Palestine Aramaic used by Jesus more than four centuries earlier. About three hundred manuscripts of the Peshitta version are known to exist in the libraries of this country and Europe. Several of these are older than the Yonan Codex, which some of our members who are expert in Syriac palaeography date to the seventh or eighth century. According to certain members of the Society who have frequently arranged for the purchase of biblical manuscripts, a
    fair estimate of the value of a manuscript like the Yonan Codex is about $5,000.”

    ‘As Metzger writes, “Now the fat was in the fire.” It may have been one thing to adjust the dating of the Codex to the 7th or 8th Century, but it was altogether a different matter when the $1,500,00 price tag was downsized to $5,000. The Aramaic Bible Foundation, who had partnered with Yonan to raise the money, immediately threatened a lawsuit agains the SBL if they did not retract their statement. Ultimately, no law suit was filed, and the grandiose tour of the Codex was cut short. How much money was collected on the tour was never disclosed.

    ‘One would have hoped that the unwarranted, fantastic claims surrounding the Yonan Codex would have finally been put to rest, but unfortunately, such is not the case. Kind and well meaning Messianics, who nonetheless are unaware of the historical facts by which a manuscript like this is identified and dated, continue to proclaim the Yonan Codex to be the oldest extant manuscript witness to the Apostolic Scriptures even though clear and conclusive evidence is to the contrary.’

    End of quote:

    Please note that Hegg references each of his sources, but I have not included these references here.

    The New Testament was written in Koine Greek. None of the autographs – the manuscripts written by the original authors (in Greek) – have survived. It is the work of Biblical scholars to surmise the original texts from the versions that do survive; particularly from the three main textual traditions: the Alexandrian text-type; the Byzantine text-type; and the Western-text type (this is the predominant form of NT text witnessed in the Old Latin and Peshitta translations from the Greek).

    Have a nice day.

  21. #140
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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    Quote Originally Posted by Grandad View Post
    Hello.

    Your post is misleading.

    This is a quote from a paper entitled: ‘What English Translation of the Apostolic Scriptures Should I Use? - Assessing the Claims’ produced by Tim Hegg of TorahResource (2011):

    ‘What’s All the Excitement about the Khaboris Codex?

    ‘Some of those who hold that the Syriac Peshitta is the oldest and most trustworthy text of the Apostolic Scriptures have been advertising that the Khaboris Codex (also spelled Khabouris and alternately known as the Yonan Codex) is itself the oldest Peshitta manuscript. For example, in the Introduction to the ‘Aramaic English New Testament’, Roth gives these claims:

    ‘”Keyed and annotated with Tiberian-Masoretic vowel pointing system to restore the sound of Y’shua’s Eastern Aramaic dialect for the Modern Hebrew reader.” (p. i)

    ‘”The Aramaic in this publication is coming from “as close to original” autographs as there is current public access to at the time of printing.” (p. vii)

    ‘”While the age of the Khabouris Codex remains the subject of much debate, there can be no doubt that it ably represents a text group that has much older members. So, while some manuscripts may vary with minor spelling, synonym and syntax variants, this is inevitable over such a long span of time. However, the overall reliability of this text group is thoroughly amazing as it is superior to either Hebrew Tanakh or the Greek New Testament.” (p. xii)

    ‘However, when Bruce Metzger made his own personal examination of the codex, comparing it with Hatch’s ‘Album of Dated Syriac Manuscripts’, he came to conclusion that it dated to “about the 7th Century at the earliest, and perhaps slightly later.” Metzger also gave his impressions of the content of the Khaboris Codex:

    ‘“I examined the manuscript with care, comparing various passages with a copy of the Bible Society’s printed Syriac New Testament that I had brought with me. In the passages that I collated, the text was identical with that of the standard Peshitta Syriac version.”

    ‘Thus, by all accounts, the Khaboris Codex is a 7th Century (or later) witness to the basic text of the Peshitta, and not a witness to an early Aramaic vorlage of the Apostolic Scriptures. It is, by no means, the oldest Syriac manuscript of the Apostolic Scriptures, and though perhaps giving important insight into the medieval Syriac Church, it surely does not offer us a superior witness of the ancient text of the Apostolic Scriptures.

    ‘The Khaboris Codex gained public notoriety in 1955 when Norman Yonan, a businessman from Iran who owned the manuscript, proposed to sell it to the Library of Congress for 1.5 million dollars. An elaborate tour through the Bible Belt of the South was planned in order to solicit contributions to raise three million dollars, half of which would be used to purchase the Codex from Yonan, and the other half to make facsimile copies of the Codex available to institutions of higher learning, as well as to stimulate study of Syriac and “to promote other projects relevant to the dissemination of the faith and knowledge of Christianity.” However, when the Library of Congress sought expert advice regarding the authenticity of the manuscript, a major battle ensued.

    ‘Eventually the Society of Biblical Literature (SBL) became involved since experts in the Syriac language and Bible had openly disputed the fantastic claims being made about the Codex, primarily, that it was the oldest extant Aramaic witness to the New Testament, and that it therefore contained the very language spoken by Yeshua! The SBL drafted a public statement disavowing such claims which concluded with this statement:

    ‘“According to members of our Society who have examined the manuscript, the Yonan Codex is a copy of the Syriac Peshitta, a version which was made from the Greek New Testament at about the beginning of the fifth century and which contains twenty-two of the twenty-seven books of the New Testament. Edessene Syriac, the language of this version, differs considerably from the Palestine Aramaic used by Jesus more than four centuries earlier. About three hundred manuscripts of the Peshitta version are known to exist in the libraries of this country and Europe. Several of these are older than the Yonan Codex, which some of our members who are expert in Syriac palaeography date to the seventh or eighth century. According to certain members of the Society who have frequently arranged for the purchase of biblical manuscripts, a
    fair estimate of the value of a manuscript like the Yonan Codex is about $5,000.”

    ‘As Metzger writes, “Now the fat was in the fire.” It may have been one thing to adjust the dating of the Codex to the 7th or 8th Century, but it was altogether a different matter when the $1,500,00 price tag was downsized to $5,000. The Aramaic Bible Foundation, who had partnered with Yonan to raise the money, immediately threatened a lawsuit agains the SBL if they did not retract their statement. Ultimately, no law suit was filed, and the grandiose tour of the Codex was cut short. How much money was collected on the tour was never disclosed.

    ‘One would have hoped that the unwarranted, fantastic claims surrounding the Yonan Codex would have finally been put to rest, but unfortunately, such is not the case. Kind and well meaning Messianics, who nonetheless are unaware of the historical facts by which a manuscript like this is identified and dated, continue to proclaim the Yonan Codex to be the oldest extant manuscript witness to the Apostolic Scriptures even though clear and conclusive evidence is to the contrary.’

    End of quote:

    Please note that Hegg references each of his sources, but I have not included these references here.

    The New Testament was written in Koine Greek. None of the autographs – the manuscripts written by the original authors (in Greek) – have survived. It is the work of Biblical scholars to surmise the original texts from the versions that do survive; particularly from the three main textual traditions: the Alexandrian text-type; the Byzantine text-type; and the Western-text type (this is the predominant form of NT text witnessed in the Old Latin and Peshitta translations from the Greek).

    Have a nice day.
    Misleading how so? I simply suggested Talibilm 09 checked it out, bit of information regarding Aramaic translations (note translation) of the New Testament. I believe he's of the opinion that none exist. The earliest manuscripts in existence are in as you say Koine Greek, Hebrew OT with small sections in Aramaic . Talibilm09 is aware of that as he has been given the information on many previous occasions.

    Have a nice day yourself.

  22. #141
    Senior Member Grandad's Avatar
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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Misleading how so? Have a nice day yourself.
    Hello Pip.

    Thank you for your regards.

    Talibilim wrote: ‘The present day Bible is not, however, based on the Aramaic manuscripts, but on Greek and Latin versions.’

    You replied: ‘Have you heard of Khaboris Codex? Check it out.’

    Your post might lead the unwary into believing that the Codex (a Syriac manuscript) is the forerunner of the Greek manuscripts, and therefore a more reliable account of New Testament events. We both know it is neither of these.

    Have a great week, and very best regards.

  23. #142
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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    Quote Originally Posted by Grandad View Post
    Hello Pip.

    Thank you for your regards.

    Talibilim wrote: ‘The present day Bible is not, however, based on the Aramaic manuscripts, but on Greek and Latin versions.’

    You replied: ‘Have you heard of Khaboris Codex? Check it out.’

    Your post might lead the unwary into believing that the Codex (a Syriac manuscript) is the forerunner of the Greek manuscripts, and therefore a more reliable account of New Testament events. We both know it is neither of these.

    Have a great week, and very best regards.
    Hello Grandad. To be honest they would have had to spent their lives on planet zog or somewhere equally remote not to know that. Talibilm to whom I was addressing, is well aware the original gospels were written in Greek and the Old Testament in Hebrew.

    Regardez

  24. #143
    Senior Member Grandad's Avatar
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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Hello Grandad. To be honest they would have had to spent their lives on planet zog or somewhere equally remote not to know that. Talibilm to whom I was addressing, is well aware the original gospels were written in Greek and the Old Testament in Hebrew.

    Regardez
    Hello Pip.

    Jolly good!

    You take care now, and very best regards.

  25. #144
    Odan talibilm09's Avatar
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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    Quote Originally Posted by Pip1 View Post
    Hello Grandad. To be honest they would have had to spent their lives on planet zog or somewhere equally remote not to know that. Talibilm to whom I was addressing, is well aware the original gospels were written in Greek and the Old Testament in Hebrew.

    Regardez
    @Grandad

    This Statement of Pip actually strengthens the claims of Bart that the Originals of NT is not available and Gospels were written by unknown Authors centuries later https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-cZncVmtIU that's why he keeps repeating If God has revealed his words he should have preseved it but The Noble Quran answers his misconception saying that all other scriptures and Apostles, Prophet came only for that particular nation and time and in their language http://legacy.quran.com/14/4

    ( Unlike ANOTHER Comforter Muhammad for all the Nations and FOREVER-untill the last days as in John https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...16&version=CJB )

    This stance of the Noble Quran is also reitterated by some verses of NT which we think are in tact as that Jesus was only for the lost sheep of Israel so If it was ONLY for Israelites as majority of them spoke Hebrew or Aramaic (mixture of Hebrew & arabic as Jesus ) THUS THE NEW TESTAMENT ITSELF PROVES that there should have been an Aramaic NT, The langauage of the Israelites as seen in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRbuafzWy24

    Thats Why Bart Asks Are the New testaments Reliable ???
    Last edited by talibilm09; 07-10-16 at 07:45 AM.

  26. #145
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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    All most All Major religions of the world PROPHESIED about the coming of the last Prophet . But they use different names to call him as found in this ( link below # 2) the old guard or so called the oldest religion though Islam was the oldest that Adam & Eve followed.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...uhammad-(pbuh)
    Last edited by talibilm09; 11-02-17 at 02:48 AM.
    My sect - No Sect

    My Aqeedah - http://legacy.quran.com/112 ( The Aqeedah of Sahabas)

    Just a Muslim

  27. #146
    Odan talibilm09's Avatar
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    Re: Talibilm.. Reasons why the Comforter cannot be Mohammed

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    @Grandad

    This Statement of Pip actually strengthens the claims of Bart that the Originals of NT is not available and Gospels were written by unknown Authors centuries later https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-cZncVmtIU that's why he keeps repeating If God has revealed his words he should have preseved it but The Noble Quran answers his misconception saying that all other scriptures and Apostles, Prophet came only for that particular nation and time and in their language http://legacy.quran.com/14/4

    ( Unlike ANOTHER Comforter Muhammad for all the Nations and FOREVER-untill the last days as in John https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...16&version=CJB )

    This stance of the Noble Quran is also reitterated by some verses of NT which we think are in tact as that Jesus was only for the lost sheep of Israel so If it was ONLY for Israelites as majority of them spoke Hebrew or Aramaic (mixture of Hebrew & arabic as Jesus ) THUS THE NEW TESTAMENT ITSELF PROVES that there should have been an Aramaic NT, The langauage of the Israelites as seen in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRbuafzWy24

    Thats Why Bart Asks Are the New testaments Reliable ???
    Who is that ''ANOTHER '' COMFORTER prophesied by Jesus which the NT readers claim about but has not arrived for the past 2000 years ?
    My sect - No Sect

    My Aqeedah - http://legacy.quran.com/112 ( The Aqeedah of Sahabas)

    Just a Muslim

 

 

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