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    Odan talibilm09's Avatar
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    Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Peace & greetings to those who seek Guidance

    Hi, friends

    This is not a question from me or Muslims but from the Top renowned Bible Scholar for 30 years and an Hardcore Evangelist and a Most Trusted Archaeologist in antiquities of scriptures Prof . Bart D Erhman Who is even Trusted by the Shrewd Israel's Archaeology Institute because of his truth speaking nature (spirit of truth) & Unbiased character. Kindly watch him if you are not prejudiced.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOour8clXrM

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    interesting points and interesting lecture, thanks. i will try to summarize a few points he has made (but its better to watch the video to get the real mojo of it)

    Gospels don't claim to be written by eye witnesses
    the titles mathew etc were added by editors later not originally by authors
    non of the gospels claims to be written by the person it bears, don't claim to be written by mathew etc
    some say some guy named pathies was referring to mark or mathew, but looking at the year 120-30 he lived its not possible
    first time anybody refers to mathew or luke or john by name is iraneas in the year 180 which is about 100 years after these books were written
    they are anonymous and not built on eye witness testimony
    they wrote the gospel in Greek , Jesus language was aramaic
    they were living in a different country decades later, where did they get the info from?
    they heard stories that were in circulation decades after death of Jesus, oral transition .. stories were told retold and changed

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    Odan kepha's Avatar
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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Ego vero Evangelio non crederem, nisi me catholicae Ecclesiae commoveret auctoritas.

    I would not believe in the Gospels were it not for the authority of the Catholic Church’ (Saint Augustine (Before Muhammad)- Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5:6)

    PS: Je suis ne pas Charlie.

    For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.

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    Odan
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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    Peace & greetings to those who seek Guidance

    Hi, friends

    This is not a question from me or Muslims but from the Top renowned Bible Scholar for 30 years and an Hardcore Evangelist and a Most Trusted Archaeologist in antiquities of scriptures Prof . Bart D Erhman Who is even Trusted by the Shrewd Israel's Archaeology Institute because of his truth speaking nature (spirit of truth) & Unbiased character. Kindly watch him if you are not prejudiced.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOour8clXrM
    Good video. He explains the points i have made far better than i ever could. These books were written by unknown people long after the events and they never even were present when the stuff happened, so how can they be even remotely be trusted? We know the Quran has been preserved, we know the hadith scholars were very rigorous in their methodology in p-reserving the Sunnah of the Prophet so we know with a good certainty that they are what the Prophet has said.

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    Odan kepha's Avatar
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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Luke 1

    Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to draw up a narrative concerning those matters which have been fulfilled among us,

    even as they delivered them unto us, who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word,
    it seemed good to me also, having traced the course of all things accurately from the first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus;
    that thou mightest know the certainty concerning the things wherein thou wast instructed.

    Go and study more
    For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.

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    Odan
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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kepha View Post
    Luke 1

    Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to draw up a narrative concerning those matters which have been fulfilled among us,

    even as they delivered them unto us, who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word,
    it seemed good to me also, having traced the course of all things accurately from the first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus;
    that thou mightest know the certainty concerning the things wherein thou wast instructed.

    Go and study more
    Too bad none of that can be proven or be used as evidence. At least with hadith we know everyone who narrated it, we have a detailed biography of them, what their contemperies at that time thought of them,l how they rated him, and a ranking in regards to how goo they were at preserving the hadith. They didn't accept the statement of any random tom,dick and Harry. Every person was scrutinized in great detail to make sure all the facts add up,.

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    Odan talibilm09's Avatar
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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Thanks all for your useful thoughts and I want to dedicate this thread to videos of Bart Erhman who has not yet accepted islam yet but has turned Agnostic because of his pain he went through after 3 decades of hard work for Christianity that he realised later was nothing but a mirage and when he found it was all on lies , So he has turned Agnostic.

    Still he supports his people (Chrsitians) that we can see from his speeches where he gives references like a true historian and leaves the Audience to decide shows he is real gentle man and does not attack Christianity directly , which can be seen in a video (will post it in later posts inshallah) where he talks about Crucifiction shows that he does want to hurt those respective believers. So let see the next video, Testaments are reliable are not ?


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSGd8uzFxxY
    .

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    http://youtu.be/CrDcYezlOr0 Bart Erhman refuted

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    I've watched this refutation by this Clown who can not even come to close to Bart's evidences, Histories, Logic reasoning . Bart served Christianity more than this clown when he was a Christian.

    Missionaries Money makes this Clown talk,but still very monotonous since its a unadulterated lie
    , lol

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    Odan kepha's Avatar
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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Too bad none of that can be proven or be used as evidence
    I don't claimed with text quoted about who wrote Luke but just that Luke's author said have talked with eyewitnesses about the facts linked with Jesus. About Matthews and Luke are authentic authors of gospels with your names see my post #3.

    I say also "Too bad...". Too bad that Kouachi brothers already were judged by Jesus. Of course they don't won an Hareem. Hopefully i yet can fight for repentance of souls of members here. Jesus bless the members here.
    Show to they your powerful love.
    For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kepha View Post
    I don't claimed with text quoted about who wrote Luke but just that Luke's author said have talked with eyewitnesses about the facts linked with Jesus. About Matthews and Luke are authentic authors of gospels with your names see my post #3.

    I say also "Too bad...". Too bad that Kouachi brothers already were judged by Jesus. Of course they don't won an Hareem. Hopefully i yet can fight for repentance of souls of members here. Jesus bless the members here.
    Show to they your powerful love.
    Exodus 34:13 But their altars are to be overturned and their pillars broken and images cut down

    Exodus 34:14 For you are to be worshippers of no other God: for the lord is a God who will not give his honour to another

    Next time try to say God bless you all rather than prophet Jesus pbuh, or else bring a book written in Araimic by Jesus pbuh that says to pray to him and always call to his name before the creator

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    Odan kepha's Avatar
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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hate Racism View Post
    Exodus 34:13 But their altars are to be overturned and their pillars broken and images cut down

    Exodus 34:14 For you are to be worshippers of no other God: for the lord is a God who will not give his honour to another

    Next time try to say God bless you all rather than prophet Jesus pbuh, or else bring a book written in Araimic by Jesus pbuh that says to pray to him and always call to his name before the creator
    What foolishness. All fool know in Jesus times the official language was Greek (like as english today). So if I wanted to make a Gospel marketing the language would must be greek. About your quotes from bible: Text without context is reason to heresy.
    For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kepha View Post
    What foolishness. All fool know in Jesus times the official language was Greek (like as english today). So if I wanted to make a Gospel marketing the language would must be greek. About your quotes from bible: Text without context is reason to heresy.
    http://time.com/118522/pope-corrects...-speak-hebrew/

    learn from Pope which language Jesus pbuh spoke

    “Jesus was here, in this land. He spoke Hebrew,” Netanyahu said, discussing the strong connection between Judaism and Christianity.

    Pope Francis looked up and slightly pointed his finger. “Aramaic,” he corrected.

    Now you still failed to provide a book written by Jesus pbuh that says pray to him?

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kepha View Post
    What foolishness. All fool know in Jesus times the official language was Greek (like as english today). So if I wanted to make a Gospel marketing the language would must be greek. About your quotes from bible: Text without context is reason to heresy.
    by the way text without context is a bold claim, i am reading the bible second time, and these verses are given to Mosus by God saying punishment will come to those who keep images of God, and pray to earthly things other than God. Eg: when Aron built an ox out of the Gold from the Israel people God was damn angry.. and since that kept on saying about people who pray to other objects or earthly stuff other than God.

    Exodus 34:14 For you are to be worshippers of no other God: for the lord is a God who will not give his honour to another

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Most of the books of the Bible were not written by the persons whose name is attributed to them.

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobak View Post
    Most of the books of the Bible were not written by the persons whose name is attributed to them.
    How do you know that and what is your source?

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    How do you know that and what is your source?
    I know that because I've read about it in books, mostly in my language that probably you won't find. I've also read the Bible, and for example, Moses couldn't have written about his own death by logic. Based on analyses of the original texts, several parts of certain books were added later, and in any case, the books were compiled at different times, usually centuries after the time they were talking about.

    But you can look it up on wikipedia, it doesn't take much effort. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobak View Post
    I know that because I've read about it in books, mostly in my language that probably you won't find. I've also read the Bible, and for example, Moses couldn't have written about his own death by logic. Based on analyses of the original texts, several parts of certain books were added later, and in any case, the books were compiled at different times, usually centuries after the time they were talking about.

    But you can look it up on wikipedia, it doesn't take much effort. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authorship_of_the_Bible
    Since we don't know who wrote parts of the Bible, should we be concerned about that or should we trust God gave us the good news in his time and way?

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    Since we don't know who wrote parts of the Bible, should we be concerned about that or should we trust God gave us the good news in his time and way?
    I didn't say I'm concerned about that.

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobak View Post
    I didn't say I'm concerned about that.
    I didn't say you were concerned about it; so who do you think wrote Matthew if not Matthew? Matthew is the first and very significant book of the gospel

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    How do you know that and what is your source?
    Christians believe that the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) were written by those whose names appear in the title of the books. Most also believe that they were written in the same order as they appear in the Bible.

    The Truth is …

    Even though the Gospels go under the names of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, they were, in fact, written anonymously. These names first appeared in the second century and were assigned to the anonymous writings to give the writings apostolic authority. The Gospel of Mark was written before any of the other canonical gospels and was written after the fall of the second temple which occurred in 70 CE.

    The Gospel of Mark is the most important of the synoptic gospels because it is the primary source for Matthew and Luke. Seventy six percent of Mark is reproduced almost word-for-word in both Matthew and Luke. An additional 18% of Mark is reproduced in Matthew but not in Luke, and an further 3% of Mark is in Luke but not in Matthew. This means that 97% of Mark is reproduced in Matthew and/or Luke.

    Matthew contains 606 of Mark’s 661 verses. Luke contains 320 of Mark’s 661 verses. Of the 55 verses of Mark which Matthew does not reproduce, Luke reproduces 31; therefore there are only 24 verses in all of Mark not reproduced somewhere in Matthew or Luke.

    http://thechurchoftruth.files.wordpr...pels.jpg?w=940

    So, Who Wrote Mark and What Were His Sources?

    Not even the Bible claims that Mark was an eye witness to Jesus’ ministry. Modern, non Christian biblical scholars believe that the gospel of Mark was written in Syria by an unknown Christian no earlier than AD 70, using various sources including a passion narrative (probably written), collections of miracles stories (oral or written), apocalyptic traditions (probably written), and disputations and didactic sayings (some possibly written). These stories were in circulation year after year, told in different languages and in different countries from that of Jesus.

    That’s it. The source for the gospel of Mark is other peoples’ stories and writings. In other words, all of Mark’s sources were at best, second hand, more likely fifth or sixth hand. What happens to stories that circulate orally for years? Obviously, they come to be changed in the retelling. Thus, the source for much of the synoptic gospels is no more than hearsay.

    Apologists dismiss the charge of “hearsay” by pointing to the strength of the “oral tradition”. The simple childhood game of “Telephone” is sufficient to illustrate the point that stories told mouth to mouth for 35 years or more can’t possibly retain their original content.

    Who Wrote Matthew and What Were The Sources?

    By the end of the 2nd century the tradition of Matthew the tax-collector had become widely accepted, and the line “The Gospel According to Matthew” began to be added to manuscripts. For many reasons scholars today believe otherwise—fifty five percent of the gospel is copied from Mark, and it seems unlikely that an eyewitness of Jesus’ ministry would need to rely on others for information about it. They believe instead that it was written between about 80–90 AD by a highly educated Jew, intimately familiar with the technical aspects of Jewish law, standing on the boundary between traditional and non-traditional Jewish values.

    A widespread theory holds that the author drew on three primary sources, each representing a distinct community: a hypothetical collection, or several collections, of sayings (called “Q“, and shared with Luke); the Gospel of Mark; and material unique to Matthew (called “M”, some of which may have originated with Matthew himself).

    He wrote for a Jewish audience: like “Q” and “M”, he stresses the continuing relevance of the Jewish law; unlike Mark he never bothers to explain Jewish customs; and unlike Luke, who traces Jesus’s ancestry back to Adam, father of the human race, he traces it only to Abraham, father of the Jews. The fact that his linage differs significantly from that of Luke is a real problem for those who claim that the Holy Spirit’s hand guided the writers of the gospels.

    The content of “M” suggests that the community for which this gospel was written, was stricter than the others in its attitude to keeping the Jewish law, holding that they must exceed the scribes and the Pharisees in “righteousness” (adherence to Jewish law); and of the three only “M” refers to a “church” (ecclesia), an organised group with rules for keeping order. Biblical scholars generally hold that Matthew was composed between the years c. 70 and 100.

    for more http://thechurchoftruth.wordpress.co...-luke-or-john/

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    Odan kepha's Avatar
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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hate Racism View Post
    http://time.com/118522/pope-corrects...-speak-hebrew/

    learn from Pope which language Jesus pbuh spoke

    “Jesus was here, in this land. He spoke Hebrew,” Netanyahu said, discussing the strong connection between Judaism and Christianity.

    Pope Francis looked up and slightly pointed his finger. “Aramaic,” he corrected.

    Now you still failed to provide a book written by Jesus pbuh that says pray to him?
    You know greek?

    Matt 5,22
    egw de legw umin oti paV o orgizomenoV tw adelfw autou eikh enocoV estai th krisei oV d an eiph tw adelfw autou raka enocoV estai tw sunedriw oV d an eiph mwre enocoV estai eiV thn geennan tou puroV

    Luke 16 9-13

    kagw umin legw poihsate eautoiV filouV ek tou mamwna thV adikiaV ina otan ekliphte dexwntai umaV eiV taV aiwniouV skhnaV

    oudeiV oikethV dunatai dusi kurioiV douleuein h gar ton ena mishsei kai ton eteron agaphsei h enoV anqexetai kai tou eterou katafronhsei ou dunasqe qew douleuein kai mamwna

    (mammōnás) is probably an Aramaic term, related to the Hebrew term ̓aman ("to trust," J. Thayer).

    Go in peace and study more.

    PS: Pope's text without context is reason to heresy.
    For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.

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    Odan kepha's Avatar
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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    book written by Jesus? I failed to provide?

    Man, don't make me laugh. Go and seek my posts.
    For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kepha View Post
    You know greek?

    Matt 5,22
    egw de legw umin oti paV o orgizomenoV tw adelfw autou eikh enocoV estai th krisei oV d an eiph tw adelfw autou raka enocoV estai tw sunedriw oV d an eiph mwre enocoV estai eiV thn geennan tou puroV

    Luke 16 9-13

    kagw umin legw poihsate eautoiV filouV ek tou mamwna thV adikiaV ina otan ekliphte dexwntai umaV eiV taV aiwniouV skhnaV

    oudeiV oikethV dunatai dusi kurioiV douleuein h gar ton ena mishsei kai ton eteron agaphsei h enoV anqexetai kai tou eterou katafronhsei ou dunasqe qew douleuein kai mamwna

    (mammōnás) is probably an Aramaic term, related to the Hebrew term ̓aman ("to trust," J. Thayer).

    Go in peace and study more.

    PS: Pope's text without context is reason to heresy.
    ???????????????

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    lol whats the big deal with the word raca? How many years after death of Jesus did Mathews book get written?

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Gospels don't claim to be written by eye witnesses
    the titles mathew etc were added by editors later not originally by authors
    non of the gospels claims to be written by the person it bears, don't claim to be written by mathew etc

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hate Racism View Post
    Gospels don't claim to be written by eye witnesses
    the titles mathew etc were added by editors later not originally by authors
    non of the gospels claims to be written by the person it bears, don't claim to be written by mathew etc
    Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to draw up a narrative concerning those matters which have been fulfilled among us,
    even as they delivered them unto us, who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word,
    it seemed good to me also, having traced the course of all things accurately from the first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus;
    that thou mightest know the certainty concerning the things wherein thou wast instructed.

    John 19,35 And he that hath seen hath borne witness, and his witness is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye also may believe.
    For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    ???????????????
    lol whats the big deal with the word raca? How many years after death of Jesus did Mathews book get written?
    This one reason because i feel sorry for you. Your knowledge is very poor.
    Seems you are an ex-protestant that embraced islam recently
    For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kepha View Post
    This one reason because i feel sorry for you. Your knowledge is very poor.
    Seems you are an ex-protestant that embraced islam recently

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by kepha View Post
    Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to draw up a narrative concerning those matters which have been fulfilled among us,
    even as they delivered them unto us, who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and ministers of the word,
    it seemed good to me also, having traced the course of all things accurately from the first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus;
    that thou mightest know the certainty concerning the things wherein thou wast instructed.

    John 19,35 And he that hath seen hath borne witness, and his witness is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye also may believe.
    omg, is this what you bring out to prove to me that the titles Mathew, Luke etc were not added later by editors

    we expect a historical reference or a research article. not a childish out of context quoting

    first time anybody refers to mathew or luke or john by name is iraneas in the year 180 which is about 100 years after these books were written

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    still the question is open

    Who wrote Mathew and who wrote Luke?

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hate Racism View Post
    still the question is open

    Who wrote Mathew and who wrote Luke?
    I guess I don't know who wrote Matthew and Luke for sure or other books of the Bible, but I don't know who wrote the Koran either. I mean I know it means recitation to speak, but it is written; so, who wrote it? I don't know!

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hate Racism View Post
    omg, is this what you bring out to prove to me that the titles Mathew, Luke etc were not added later by editors

    we expect a historical reference or a research article. not a childish out of context quoting

    first time anybody refers to mathew or luke or john by name is iraneas in the year 180 which is about 100 years after these books were written
    You right! The titles were added by Academic press!
    For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths.

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    I guess I don't know who wrote Matthew and Luke for sure or other books of the Bible, but I don't know who wrote the Koran either. I mean I know it means recitation to speak, but it is written; so, who wrote it? I don't know!
    you see, the bible was written by different people such as Matthew and Luke years or decades after the death of Jesus, and then no one knows who wrote Mathew or Luke either

    in the Quran the oldest found one is 1400 years Old and its completely the same even today and the language is also the same when studied.

    Who is the Author?

    Now I come back to the Quran, and as I mentioned the speaker in the Quran is - in the first person - is God. The book claims throughout that it is the word of God. It names itself 70 times as the Quran. It talks about its own contents. It has self-reference. The Quran states in the first Sura after Fatiha that “This is the book, there is no doubt in it, it is a guidance for those who are conscious of God” and so on and so on… It begins that way and continues that way stressing that. And there is one very amazing statement in the Quran when you come to the fourth Sura 82nd Ayah which says to those who say Quran is something else than the word of God. It challenges them saying: “Have they not considered the Quran, if it came from someone other than God they will find in it many mistakes”. Some of you are students, would you dare to hand in a paper after you completed a research work or something at the bottom you put down there “You wont find mistakes in this”. Would you dare to challenge your professor that way?. Well the Quran does that. It is telling: If you really think you know where this came from then starts looking for mistakes because you wont find any. Another interesting thing the Quran does is that it quotes all its critics. There has never - in hundreds of years - ever been some suggestion as to where that book came from but that the Quran does not already mention that objection and reply to it. Many times you will find the Ayah saying something like: Do they say such and such and so, say to them such and such and so. In every case there is a reply. More than that the Quran claims that the evidence of its origin is in itself, and that if you look at this book you will be convinced.

    God Speaks in First Person to Mankind in Quran

    The Quran contains clear statements from Almighty God (Allah) and it is Him speaking to all of us in the first person. He tells of us our own creation, the creation of all that is the universe and what has happened to those before us and what is to become of us if we do not take heed of the warnings clearly spelled out in His Revelation. He speaks also to Muhammad, peace be upon him, to show that Muhammad, peace be upon him, is not making this up himself and even chastises Muhammad, peace be upon him, for making human assumptions rather than waiting for revelation in matters (ie.; surah At-Tahreem and surah Abasa).

    Quran Mentions Itself

    The Quran refers to itself as "The Quran" (The Recitation) and mentions that it is to all mankind and jinn (another creation of Allah, similar to humans in that they could make choices as to whether or not they would obey God's Commandments, and they existed before humans).

    Quran Describes God's Nature Exactly

    The Quran is clear on who God is and who He is not. There is no room left for doubt after reading the Quran in the Arabic languge: God is One. He is the only Creator, Sustainer and Owner of the Universe. He has no partners. He has no relatives; wives, children or offspring. He is not like His creation and He does not need it for His existance, while all the time the creation is totally dependent on Him. His attributes are clearly spelled out as the epitome of each and every one. He is for instance, the All-Knowing; the All-Hearing; the All-Seeing; the All-Forgiving; the All- Loving; the All-Merciful; the Only One God. There is never a contradiction to this found anywhere in the Quran.

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hate Racism View Post
    you see, the bible was written by different people such as Matthew and Luke years or decades after the death of Jesus, and then no one knows who wrote Mathew or Luke either

    in the Quran the oldest found one is 1400 years Old and its completely the same even today and the language is also the same when studied.

    Who is the Author?

    Now I come back to the Quran, and as I mentioned the speaker in the Quran is - in the first person - is God. The book claims throughout that it is the word of God. It names itself 70 times as the Quran. It talks about its own contents. It has self-reference. The Quran states in the first Sura after Fatiha that “This is the book, there is no doubt in it, it is a guidance for those who are conscious of God” and so on and so on… It begins that way and continues that way stressing that. And there is one very amazing statement in the Quran when you come to the fourth Sura 82nd Ayah which says to those who say Quran is something else than the word of God. It challenges them saying: “Have they not considered the Quran, if it came from someone other than God they will find in it many mistakes”. Some of you are students, would you dare to hand in a paper after you completed a research work or something at the bottom you put down there “You wont find mistakes in this”. Would you dare to challenge your professor that way?. Well the Quran does that. It is telling: If you really think you know where this came from then starts looking for mistakes because you wont find any. Another interesting thing the Quran does is that it quotes all its critics. There has never - in hundreds of years - ever been some suggestion as to where that book came from but that the Quran does not already mention that objection and reply to it. Many times you will find the Ayah saying something like: Do they say such and such and so, say to them such and such and so. In every case there is a reply. More than that the Quran claims that the evidence of its origin is in itself, and that if you look at this book you will be convinced.

    God Speaks in First Person to Mankind in Quran

    The Quran contains clear statements from Almighty God (Allah) and it is Him speaking to all of us in the first person. He tells of us our own creation, the creation of all that is the universe and what has happened to those before us and what is to become of us if we do not take heed of the warnings clearly spelled out in His Revelation. He speaks also to Muhammad, peace be upon him, to show that Muhammad, peace be upon him, is not making this up himself and even chastises Muhammad, peace be upon him, for making human assumptions rather than waiting for revelation in matters (ie.; surah At-Tahreem and surah Abasa).

    Quran Mentions Itself

    The Quran refers to itself as "The Quran" (The Recitation) and mentions that it is to all mankind and jinn (another creation of Allah, similar to humans in that they could make choices as to whether or not they would obey God's Commandments, and they existed before humans).

    Quran Describes God's Nature Exactly

    The Quran is clear on who God is and who He is not. There is no room left for doubt after reading the Quran in the Arabic languge: God is One. He is the only Creator, Sustainer and Owner of the Universe. He has no partners. He has no relatives; wives, children or offspring. He is not like His creation and He does not need it for His existance, while all the time the creation is totally dependent on Him. His attributes are clearly spelled out as the epitome of each and every one. He is for instance, the All-Knowing; the All-Hearing; the All-Seeing; the All-Forgiving; the All- Loving; the All-Merciful; the Only One God. There is never a contradiction to this found anywhere in the Quran.
    You said all this, but didn't answer the question of who wrote it. Are you saying Allah wrote the Quran Muslims use today:?
    Are you saying the Koran asks us to find errors in it?
    Allah might ask or challenge us to find errors, but Muslims don't seem to take it well when people attempt that. What do you mean by there are no doubts in it? There are no doubts in any book. It is not the book Bible or Koran that doubts; it is people that believe or doubt

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    You said all this, but didn't answer the question of who wrote it. Are you saying Allah wrote the Quran Muslims use today:?
    Are you saying the Koran asks us to find errors in it?
    Allah might ask or challenge us to find errors, but Muslims don't seem to take it well when people attempt that. What do you mean by there are no doubts in it? There are no doubts in any book. It is not the book Bible or Koran that doubts; it is people that believe or doubt
    Self reference, claiming its identity back to back, God speaking in first person to mankind and God mention himself several times in first person. You think Quran is a book that fell down from sky to a bunch of arabs who were not even able to read? lol you are completely in a different idea. The Quran is verses revealed to prophet for around 30 years with a poetic tone of making each verse easy to memorize. after all the verses were revealed the prophet memorized it all and many of his relatives and companions memorized it too. so this is not random unknown people i can show you the list of first generation people who memorized it and put the book together. Then it was put down to note with the approval of prophet and companions at the first era.

    one of the oldest found copy is from the caliphate Uthman who was a companion of prophet and 100s of other Hafiz have double checked and found it to be the same word to word accurate

    The Quran is still learnt and studied in its original language but bible is a dead scripture in terms of its root language, you will misunderstand allot of metaphor and take different meanings due to this

    if the bible was a collection of manuscripts for 1000 of years, who put it together? why you trust them who put it together? they simply put only the ones that fit into the theme so this is why only the "chosen books" have a similar tone

    if your saying the message went down orally from time to time just like Quran, are you aware that the Quran was the same since its first documented release? Bible was changed time to time by men and its hard to even trace the first release

    The Authenticity of the Quran


    How do we know that the Qur’an we have today is the word of God?

    The importance of this question cannot be underestimated. Scriptures form the bedrock of a religion's teachings and typically compel people to follow them on the assumption that they are of divine origin. However, with so many competing claims, it is no longer sufficient to rely on mere assumption alone to feel confident that a religious scripture ought to be trusted as Truth. If being a “Muslim” means “one who surrenders to the will of Allah”, then every Muslim should know that it really is the will of Allah that one is surrendering to.

    To answer the question, we first need to establish that the Qur’an we have today is the same Qur’an as revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (p) and that no corruption has taken place in the transmission of that message. In other words, we initially need to prove the fact that the Qur’an has survived history, perfectly preserved. Secondly, we need to establish who the author of the Qur’an really is. This may be done by eliminating all possible authors that are unacceptable to reason. That is, we may be certain of the definite author by eliminating all unlikely authors. This two-step process is outlined below:

    I. The Recording and Perfect Preservation of the Qur’an

    The Glorious Qur’an, the Muslims’ religious Scripture, was revealed in Arabic to the Prophet Muhammad (p) through the angel Gabriel. The revelation occurred piecemeal, over a period of twenty-three years, sometimes in brief verses and sometimes in longer chapters [1].

    The Qur’an (lit. a “reading” or “recitation”) is distinct from the recorded sayings and deeds (Sunnah) of the Prophet Muhammad (p), which are instead preserved in a separate set of literature collectively called the “Ahadith” (lit. “news”; “report”; or “narration”).

    Upon receiving revelation, the Prophet (p) engaged himself in the duty of conveying the message to his Companions through reciting the exact words he heard in their exact order. This is evident in his inclusion of even the words of Allah which were directed specifically to him, for example: “Qul” (“Say [to the people, O Muhammad]”). The Qur’an's rhythmic style and eloquent expression make it easy to memorize. Indeed, Allah describes this as one of its essential qualities for preservation and remembrance (Q.44:58; 54:17,22,32,40), particularly in an Arab society which prided itself on orations of lengthy pieces of poetry. Michael Zwettler notes that "in ancient times, when writing was scarcely used, memory and oral transmission was exercised and strengthened to a degree now almost unknown" [2]. Large portions of the revelation were thus easily memorized by a large number of people in the community of the Prophet (p).

    The Prophet (p) encouraged his Companions to learn each verse that was revealed and transmit it to others [3]. The Qur'an was also required to be recited regularly as an act of worship, especially during the daily meditative prayers (salat). Through these means, many repeatedly heard passages from the revelation recited to them, memorized them and used them in prayer. The entire Qur’an was memorized verbatim (word for word) by some of the Prophet’s Companions. Among them were Zaid ibn Thabit, Ubayy ibn Ka’b, Mu’adh ibn Jabal, and Abu Zaid [4].

    Furthermore, the sequence or order of the Qur'an was arranged by the Prophet (p) himself and was also well-known to the Companions [5]. Each Ramadan, the Prophet (p) would repeat after the angel Gabriel (reciting) the entire Qur’an in its exact order as far as it had been revealed, while in the presence of a number of his Companions [6]. In the year of his death, he recited it twice [7]. Thereby, the order of verses in each chapter and the order of the chapters became reinforced in the memories of each of the Companions present.

    As the Companions spread out to various provinces with different populations, they took their recitations with them in order to instruct others [8]. In this way, the same Qur’an became widely retained in the memories of many people across vast and diverse areas of land.

    Indeed, memorization of the Qur’an emerged into a continuous tradition across the centuries, with centers/schools for memorization being established across the Muslim world [9]. The Qur’an is perhaps the only book, religious or secular, that has been memorized completely by millions of people [10]. Leading orientalist Kenneth Cragg reflects that “this phenomenon of Qur'anic recital means that the text has traversed the centuries in an unbroken living sequence of devotion. It cannot, therefore, be handled as an antiquarian thing, nor as a historical document out of a distant past. The fact of hifz (Qur'anic memorization) has made the Qur'an a present possession through all the lapse of Muslim time and given it a human currency in every generation, never allowing its relegation to a bare authority for reference alone” [11].

    The entire Qur’an was however also recorded in writing at the time of revelation from the Prophet’s dictation by some of his literate companions, the most prominent of them being Zaid ibn Thabit [12]. Others among his noble scribes were Ubayy ibn Ka’b, Ibn Mas’ud, Mu’awiya ibn Abi-Sufyan, Khalid ibn Waleed and Zubayr ibn Awwam [13]. The verses were recorded on leather, parchment, scapulae (shoulder bones of animals) and the stalks of date palms [14].

    The codification of the Qur’an (i.e. into a ‘book form’) was done soon after the Battle of Yamama (11AH/633CE), after the Prophet’s death, during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr. Many companions became martyrs at that battle and it was feared that unless a written copy of the entire revelation was produced, large parts of the Qur’an might be lost with the death of those who had memorized it. Therefore, at the suggestion of Umar to collect the Qur’an in the form of writing, Zaid ibn Thabit was requested by Abu Bakr to head a committee which would gather together the scattered recordings of the Qur’an and prepare a suhuf - loose sheets which bore the entire revelation on them [15]. To safeguard the compilation from errors, the committee accepted only material which had been written down in the presence of the Prophet (p) himself, and which could be verified by at least two reliable witnesses who had actually heard the Prophet (p) recite the passage in question [16]. Once completed and unanimously approved of by the Prophet’s Companions, these sheets were kept with the Caliph Abu Bakr (d. 13AH/634CE), then passed on to the Caliph Umar (13-23AH/634-644CE), and then Umar’s daughter and the Prophet’s widow, Hafsa [17].

    Although the Qur’an was initially revealed in the Qurayshi dialect of Arabic to the Prophet (p), it was also later revealed in seven different Arabian dialects to aid the understanding of those belonging to non-Quraysh tribes [18]. At the time of the third Caliph Uthman (23AH-35AH/644-656CE), however, a companion named Hudhayfah ibn Al-Yaman observed that the people of the regions of present-day Syria and Iraq had begun disputing over various pronunciations of some of the words of the Qur’an, while new Muslims in provinces outside Arabia were unsure which dialect should be learned. Urged by Hudhayfah to take heed of how the Ahl al-Kitab (People of the Book) had differed among themselves regarding Allah’s Word, Uthman perceived the danger of divisions, disunity and corruption arising on the basis of different readings/dialects of the Qur’an which were earlier on approved by the Prophet (p) [19]. He therefore requested Hafsa to send him the manuscript of the Qur’an which was in her safekeeping, and ordered the production of several bounded copies of it (masaahif, sg. mushaf) using the Quraysh dialect (i.e. the dialect of the Prophet himself and in which the Qur'an had commenced being revealed in). This task was entrusted to the Companions Zaid ibn Thabit, Abdullah ibn Az-Zubair, Sa‘id ibn As-‘As, and Abdur Rahman ibn Harith ibn Hisham [20].

    Upon completion (in 25AH/646CE), Uthman returned the original manuscript to Hafsa and sent the copies to the major Islamic provinces to replace other materials that were in circulation. He also ordered that all other extracts or copies of the Qur’an which differed from that undoubted “official” copy (including incomplete manuscripts and those with additional personal notes) be burnt so that the Qur’an would not suffer the same fate of alterations, uncertainty of authenticity and contradictory versions which characterized prior religious scriptures. This action of Uthman was unanimously approved of by the Prophet’s Companions, as evidenced in the accounts of Zaid, Mus’ab, and Ali that the Companions had gathered in large numbers to witness the burning, with no-one speaking out against it. Their accounts also reveal that many had openly declared their support for Uthman at the time, and how pleased they were with the measures he had taken [21]. It was therefore not the “Original” Qur’an that was burnt, nor a fabricated story to discredit Uthman in the eyes of the community, as some critics of Islam allege.

    The story of how the Qur'an came to be preserved as described above is drawn entirely from authentic Ahadith. Some orientalist critics, however, claim that the narrations in Hadith collections cannot be trusted due to their being recorded by “Muslim sources”. These orientalists ignore the fact that news and social history have always been uncovered through eye-witness reports, and that early Muslim scholars have developed some of the most rigorous criteria to scrutinize such reports for authenticity [22]. The majority of what we know of the life of the Prophet (p) and his Companions are from mutawaatir reports (reported by many different reliable narrators, who all independently verify the same account). This continuing and dynamic science (now over thirteen centuries old) has produced highly accurate (albeit not perfect) reports of Muslim history. Through this science, thousands of scholars have repeatedly analyzed the Ahadith collections in order to identify and filter out any fabrications. The accusation that most Muslim scholarship has been based on forgery would necessarily implicate that all the geographically scattered scholars of the first four centuries of Hadith collection, who belonged to varied and competing schools of thought, collaborated together in a mutual conspiracy – an idea which neither appeals to reason nor the fact that such scholars were renowned for their piety and integrity of character.

    A number of orientalists (such as Ignaz Goldziher [23]) have been attached to the theory that certain variations in some of the reports make the entire story of the Qur’an’s codification dubious. Yet other scholars have pointed out that these differences are often reconcilable due to context of each narration (contexts which, incidentally, are also recorded in Ahadith collections), and the time of narration (some referring to earlier instances, such as prior to the completion of the entire Qur’an [24]). Muslim scholars also note that the number of memorizers was great for any given portion of the Qur'an and therefore if any error had been made in Uthman's codification, someone would have pointed it out. Furthermore, the majority of the reports indicate that the text of Uthman's codification is mutawaatir – ie. transmitted and agreed upon by many people – while other variant readings were only used by a sole companion or occasionally two or three [25].

    Jeffrey Lang [26] points out that orientalists often base their conclusions on mere speculation or fragmentary data which also stem from the same Hadith collections that they criticize. In line with Edward Said’s comments on the underlying biases of Western scholarship [27], he also remarks that the bulk of orientalist analysis has been so predisposed to write off discrepancies in the body of early Muslim literature as evidence of Hadith fabrications that it often overlooks clear evidence that easily explains otherwise. An example of this is the frequent criticism that Ahadith were forged in the second and third century after Hijrah to support jurists’ legal rulings. Azami [28] explains that such accusations often relied on a faulty comparison of legal and hadith literature when in fact they are two distinct fields. One involves narrating and verifying Ahadith, the other involves deriving legal opinions and discussions from such Ahadith. Inferences about one science cannot validly be made by studying the development of another. The theory that all Ahadith about the collection of the Qur'an were forged in the second and third century has been further refuted by proof that much of the Ahadith were actually written down in the first century [29].

    In an excellent attempt at objective analysis of Western criticism of Hadith traditions, Jeffrey Lang [30] concludes that Muslim scholars’ deductions of history hold ground more solidly with the available evidence than their orientalist counterparts’. Orientalist theories are further addressed and refuted in the works of Ali [31], Azami [32], Abbott [33], Siddiqi [34], and Abdul Ghafar [35].

    Despite such defective theories, many orientalists themselves have admitted like Gibb that “It seems reasonably well established that no material changes were introduced and that the original form of Mohammed’s discourses were preserved with scrupulous precision” [36]. John Burton, at the end of his substantial work on the Qur’an’s compilation, says with reference to criticisms made of different readings narrated in Ahadith that “No major differences of doctrines can be constructed on the basis of the parallel readings based on the Uthmanic consonantal outline, yet ascribed to mushafs other than his. All the rival readings unquestionably represent one and the same text. They are substantially agreed in what they transmit…” [37]. He further states that the Qur'an as we have it today is “the text which has come down to us in the form in which it was organized and approved by the Prophet…. What we have today in our hands is the mushaf of Muhammad.” [38]. Kenneth Cragg describes the transmission of the Qur'an from the time of revelation to today as occurring in “an unbroken living sequence of devotion” [39]. Schwally concurs that “As far as the various pieces of revelation are concerned, we may be confident that their text has been generally transmitted exactly as it was found in the Prophet's legacy” [40].

    The historical credibility of the Qur'an is further established by the fact that one of the copies sent out by the Caliph Uthman is still in existence today. It lies in the Museum of the City of Tashkent in Uzbekistan, Central Asia [41]. A facsimile of the mushaf in Tashkent is available at the Columbia University Library in the USA [42]. This copy is proof that the text of the Qur’an we have in circulation today is identical with that of the time of the Prophet and his companions. A copy of the mushaf sent to Syria (duplicated before a fire in 1310AH/1892CE destroyed the Jaami' Masjid where it was housed) also exists in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul [43], and an early manuscript on gazelle parchment exists in Dar al-Kutub as-Sultaniyyah in Egypt. More ancient manuscripts from all periods of Islamic history found in the Library of Congress in Washington, the Chester Beatty Museum in Dublin (Ireland) and the London Museum have been compared with those in Tashkent, Turkey and Egypt, with results confirming that there have not been any changes in the text from its original time of writing [44].

    The Institute for Koranforschung, for example, in the University of Munich (Germany), collected over 42,000 complete or incomplete ancient copies of the Qur’an. After around fifty years of research, they reported that there was no variance between the various copies, except the occasional mistakes of the copyist which could easily be ascertained. This Institute was unfortunately destroyed by bombs during WWII [45].

    Thus, due to the efforts of the early companions, with Allah’s assistance, the Qur’an as we have it today is recited in the same manner as it was revealed. This makes it the only religious scripture that is still completely retained and understood in its original language. Indeed, as Sir William Muir states, “There is probably no other book in the world which has remained twelve centuries [now fourteen] with so pure a text” [46].

    The evidence above confirms Allah's promise in the Qur'an: “Verily, We have revealed the Reminder, and verily We shall preserve it.” (Q.15:9). The Qur'an has been preserved in both oral and written form in a way no other book has, and with each form providing a check and balance for the authenticity of the other.

    But though it is proven that the text of the Qur’an has remained intact till today, how are we sure that that words actually originated from God and not some other source? This takes us to look at the authenticity, authority, or source of the Qur’an.

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hate Racism View Post
    Self reference, claiming its identity back to back, God speaking in first person to mankind and God mention himself several times in first person. You think Quran is a book that fell down from sky to a bunch of arabs who were not even able to read? lol you are completely in a different idea. The Quran is verses revealed to prophet for around 30 years with a poetic tone of making each verse easy to memorize. after all the verses were revealed the prophet memorized it all and many of his relatives and companions memorized it too. so this is not random unknown people i can show you the list of first generation people who memorized it and put the book together. Then it was put down to note with the approval of prophet and companions at the first era.

    one of the oldest found copy is from the caliphate Uthman who was a companion of prophet and 100s of other Hafiz have double checked and found it to be the same word to word accurate

    The Quran is still learnt and studied in its original language but bible is a dead scripture in terms of its root language, you will misunderstand allot of metaphor and take different meanings due to this

    if the bible was a collection of manuscripts for 1000 of years, who put it together? why you trust them who put it together? they simply put only the ones that fit into the theme so this is why only the "chosen books" have a similar tone

    if your saying the message went down orally from time to time just like Quran, are you aware that the Quran was the same since its first documented release? Bible was changed time to time by men and its hard to even trace the first release

    The Authenticity of the Quran


    How do we know that the Qur’an we have today is the word of God?

    The importance of this question cannot be underestimated. Scriptures form the bedrock of a religion's teachings and typically compel people to follow them on the assumption that they are of divine origin. However, with so many competing claims, it is no longer sufficient to rely on mere assumption alone to feel confident that a religious scripture ought to be trusted as Truth. If being a “Muslim” means “one who surrenders to the will of Allah”, then every Muslim should know that it really is the will of Allah that one is surrendering to.

    To answer the question, we first need to establish that the Qur’an we have today is the same Qur’an as revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (p) and that no corruption has taken place in the transmission of that message. In other words, we initially need to prove the fact that the Qur’an has survived history, perfectly preserved. Secondly, we need to establish who the author of the Qur’an really is. This may be done by eliminating all possible authors that are unacceptable to reason. That is, we may be certain of the definite author by eliminating all unlikely authors. This two-step process is outlined below:

    I. The Recording and Perfect Preservation of the Qur’an

    The Glorious Qur’an, the Muslims’ religious Scripture, was revealed in Arabic to the Prophet Muhammad (p) through the angel Gabriel. The revelation occurred piecemeal, over a period of twenty-three years, sometimes in brief verses and sometimes in longer chapters [1].

    The Qur’an (lit. a “reading” or “recitation”) is distinct from the recorded sayings and deeds (Sunnah) of the Prophet Muhammad (p), which are instead preserved in a separate set of literature collectively called the “Ahadith” (lit. “news”; “report”; or “narration”).

    Upon receiving revelation, the Prophet (p) engaged himself in the duty of conveying the message to his Companions through reciting the exact words he heard in their exact order. This is evident in his inclusion of even the words of Allah which were directed specifically to him, for example: “Qul” (“Say [to the people, O Muhammad]”). The Qur’an's rhythmic style and eloquent expression make it easy to memorize. Indeed, Allah describes this as one of its essential qualities for preservation and remembrance (Q.44:58; 54:17,22,32,40), particularly in an Arab society which prided itself on orations of lengthy pieces of poetry. Michael Zwettler notes that "in ancient times, when writing was scarcely used, memory and oral transmission was exercised and strengthened to a degree now almost unknown" [2]. Large portions of the revelation were thus easily memorized by a large number of people in the community of the Prophet (p).

    The Prophet (p) encouraged his Companions to learn each verse that was revealed and transmit it to others [3]. The Qur'an was also required to be recited regularly as an act of worship, especially during the daily meditative prayers (salat). Through these means, many repeatedly heard passages from the revelation recited to them, memorized them and used them in prayer. The entire Qur’an was memorized verbatim (word for word) by some of the Prophet’s Companions. Among them were Zaid ibn Thabit, Ubayy ibn Ka’b, Mu’adh ibn Jabal, and Abu Zaid [4].

    Furthermore, the sequence or order of the Qur'an was arranged by the Prophet (p) himself and was also well-known to the Companions [5]. Each Ramadan, the Prophet (p) would repeat after the angel Gabriel (reciting) the entire Qur’an in its exact order as far as it had been revealed, while in the presence of a number of his Companions [6]. In the year of his death, he recited it twice [7]. Thereby, the order of verses in each chapter and the order of the chapters became reinforced in the memories of each of the Companions present.

    As the Companions spread out to various provinces with different populations, they took their recitations with them in order to instruct others [8]. In this way, the same Qur’an became widely retained in the memories of many people across vast and diverse areas of land.

    Indeed, memorization of the Qur’an emerged into a continuous tradition across the centuries, with centers/schools for memorization being established across the Muslim world [9]. The Qur’an is perhaps the only book, religious or secular, that has been memorized completely by millions of people [10]. Leading orientalist Kenneth Cragg reflects that “this phenomenon of Qur'anic recital means that the text has traversed the centuries in an unbroken living sequence of devotion. It cannot, therefore, be handled as an antiquarian thing, nor as a historical document out of a distant past. The fact of hifz (Qur'anic memorization) has made the Qur'an a present possession through all the lapse of Muslim time and given it a human currency in every generation, never allowing its relegation to a bare authority for reference alone” [11].

    The entire Qur’an was however also recorded in writing at the time of revelation from the Prophet’s dictation by some of his literate companions, the most prominent of them being Zaid ibn Thabit [12]. Others among his noble scribes were Ubayy ibn Ka’b, Ibn Mas’ud, Mu’awiya ibn Abi-Sufyan, Khalid ibn Waleed and Zubayr ibn Awwam [13]. The verses were recorded on leather, parchment, scapulae (shoulder bones of animals) and the stalks of date palms [14].

    The codification of the Qur’an (i.e. into a ‘book form’) was done soon after the Battle of Yamama (11AH/633CE), after the Prophet’s death, during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr. Many companions became martyrs at that battle and it was feared that unless a written copy of the entire revelation was produced, large parts of the Qur’an might be lost with the death of those who had memorized it. Therefore, at the suggestion of Umar to collect the Qur’an in the form of writing, Zaid ibn Thabit was requested by Abu Bakr to head a committee which would gather together the scattered recordings of the Qur’an and prepare a suhuf - loose sheets which bore the entire revelation on them [15]. To safeguard the compilation from errors, the committee accepted only material which had been written down in the presence of the Prophet (p) himself, and which could be verified by at least two reliable witnesses who had actually heard the Prophet (p) recite the passage in question [16]. Once completed and unanimously approved of by the Prophet’s Companions, these sheets were kept with the Caliph Abu Bakr (d. 13AH/634CE), then passed on to the Caliph Umar (13-23AH/634-644CE), and then Umar’s daughter and the Prophet’s widow, Hafsa [17].

    Although the Qur’an was initially revealed in the Qurayshi dialect of Arabic to the Prophet (p), it was also later revealed in seven different Arabian dialects to aid the understanding of those belonging to non-Quraysh tribes [18]. At the time of the third Caliph Uthman (23AH-35AH/644-656CE), however, a companion named Hudhayfah ibn Al-Yaman observed that the people of the regions of present-day Syria and Iraq had begun disputing over various pronunciations of some of the words of the Qur’an, while new Muslims in provinces outside Arabia were unsure which dialect should be learned. Urged by Hudhayfah to take heed of how the Ahl al-Kitab (People of the Book) had differed among themselves regarding Allah’s Word, Uthman perceived the danger of divisions, disunity and corruption arising on the basis of different readings/dialects of the Qur’an which were earlier on approved by the Prophet (p) [19]. He therefore requested Hafsa to send him the manuscript of the Qur’an which was in her safekeeping, and ordered the production of several bounded copies of it (masaahif, sg. mushaf) using the Quraysh dialect (i.e. the dialect of the Prophet himself and in which the Qur'an had commenced being revealed in). This task was entrusted to the Companions Zaid ibn Thabit, Abdullah ibn Az-Zubair, Sa‘id ibn As-‘As, and Abdur Rahman ibn Harith ibn Hisham [20].

    Upon completion (in 25AH/646CE), Uthman returned the original manuscript to Hafsa and sent the copies to the major Islamic provinces to replace other materials that were in circulation. He also ordered that all other extracts or copies of the Qur’an which differed from that undoubted “official” copy (including incomplete manuscripts and those with additional personal notes) be burnt so that the Qur’an would not suffer the same fate of alterations, uncertainty of authenticity and contradictory versions which characterized prior religious scriptures. This action of Uthman was unanimously approved of by the Prophet’s Companions, as evidenced in the accounts of Zaid, Mus’ab, and Ali that the Companions had gathered in large numbers to witness the burning, with no-one speaking out against it. Their accounts also reveal that many had openly declared their support for Uthman at the time, and how pleased they were with the measures he had taken [21]. It was therefore not the “Original” Qur’an that was burnt, nor a fabricated story to discredit Uthman in the eyes of the community, as some critics of Islam allege.

    The story of how the Qur'an came to be preserved as described above is drawn entirely from authentic Ahadith. Some orientalist critics, however, claim that the narrations in Hadith collections cannot be trusted due to their being recorded by “Muslim sources”. These orientalists ignore the fact that news and social history have always been uncovered through eye-witness reports, and that early Muslim scholars have developed some of the most rigorous criteria to scrutinize such reports for authenticity [22]. The majority of what we know of the life of the Prophet (p) and his Companions are from mutawaatir reports (reported by many different reliable narrators, who all independently verify the same account). This continuing and dynamic science (now over thirteen centuries old) has produced highly accurate (albeit not perfect) reports of Muslim history. Through this science, thousands of scholars have repeatedly analyzed the Ahadith collections in order to identify and filter out any fabrications. The accusation that most Muslim scholarship has been based on forgery would necessarily implicate that all the geographically scattered scholars of the first four centuries of Hadith collection, who belonged to varied and competing schools of thought, collaborated together in a mutual conspiracy – an idea which neither appeals to reason nor the fact that such scholars were renowned for their piety and integrity of character.

    A number of orientalists (such as Ignaz Goldziher [23]) have been attached to the theory that certain variations in some of the reports make the entire story of the Qur’an’s codification dubious. Yet other scholars have pointed out that these differences are often reconcilable due to context of each narration (contexts which, incidentally, are also recorded in Ahadith collections), and the time of narration (some referring to earlier instances, such as prior to the completion of the entire Qur’an [24]). Muslim scholars also note that the number of memorizers was great for any given portion of the Qur'an and therefore if any error had been made in Uthman's codification, someone would have pointed it out. Furthermore, the majority of the reports indicate that the text of Uthman's codification is mutawaatir – ie. transmitted and agreed upon by many people – while other variant readings were only used by a sole companion or occasionally two or three [25].

    Jeffrey Lang [26] points out that orientalists often base their conclusions on mere speculation or fragmentary data which also stem from the same Hadith collections that they criticize. In line with Edward Said’s comments on the underlying biases of Western scholarship [27], he also remarks that the bulk of orientalist analysis has been so predisposed to write off discrepancies in the body of early Muslim literature as evidence of Hadith fabrications that it often overlooks clear evidence that easily explains otherwise. An example of this is the frequent criticism that Ahadith were forged in the second and third century after Hijrah to support jurists’ legal rulings. Azami [28] explains that such accusations often relied on a faulty comparison of legal and hadith literature when in fact they are two distinct fields. One involves narrating and verifying Ahadith, the other involves deriving legal opinions and discussions from such Ahadith. Inferences about one science cannot validly be made by studying the development of another. The theory that all Ahadith about the collection of the Qur'an were forged in the second and third century has been further refuted by proof that much of the Ahadith were actually written down in the first century [29].

    In an excellent attempt at objective analysis of Western criticism of Hadith traditions, Jeffrey Lang [30] concludes that Muslim scholars’ deductions of history hold ground more solidly with the available evidence than their orientalist counterparts’. Orientalist theories are further addressed and refuted in the works of Ali [31], Azami [32], Abbott [33], Siddiqi [34], and Abdul Ghafar [35].

    Despite such defective theories, many orientalists themselves have admitted like Gibb that “It seems reasonably well established that no material changes were introduced and that the original form of Mohammed’s discourses were preserved with scrupulous precision” [36]. John Burton, at the end of his substantial work on the Qur’an’s compilation, says with reference to criticisms made of different readings narrated in Ahadith that “No major differences of doctrines can be constructed on the basis of the parallel readings based on the Uthmanic consonantal outline, yet ascribed to mushafs other than his. All the rival readings unquestionably represent one and the same text. They are substantially agreed in what they transmit…” [37]. He further states that the Qur'an as we have it today is “the text which has come down to us in the form in which it was organized and approved by the Prophet…. What we have today in our hands is the mushaf of Muhammad.” [38]. Kenneth Cragg describes the transmission of the Qur'an from the time of revelation to today as occurring in “an unbroken living sequence of devotion” [39]. Schwally concurs that “As far as the various pieces of revelation are concerned, we may be confident that their text has been generally transmitted exactly as it was found in the Prophet's legacy” [40].

    The historical credibility of the Qur'an is further established by the fact that one of the copies sent out by the Caliph Uthman is still in existence today. It lies in the Museum of the City of Tashkent in Uzbekistan, Central Asia [41]. A facsimile of the mushaf in Tashkent is available at the Columbia University Library in the USA [42]. This copy is proof that the text of the Qur’an we have in circulation today is identical with that of the time of the Prophet and his companions. A copy of the mushaf sent to Syria (duplicated before a fire in 1310AH/1892CE destroyed the Jaami' Masjid where it was housed) also exists in the Topkapi Museum in Istanbul [43], and an early manuscript on gazelle parchment exists in Dar al-Kutub as-Sultaniyyah in Egypt. More ancient manuscripts from all periods of Islamic history found in the Library of Congress in Washington, the Chester Beatty Museum in Dublin (Ireland) and the London Museum have been compared with those in Tashkent, Turkey and Egypt, with results confirming that there have not been any changes in the text from its original time of writing [44].

    The Institute for Koranforschung, for example, in the University of Munich (Germany), collected over 42,000 complete or incomplete ancient copies of the Qur’an. After around fifty years of research, they reported that there was no variance between the various copies, except the occasional mistakes of the copyist which could easily be ascertained. This Institute was unfortunately destroyed by bombs during WWII [45].

    Thus, due to the efforts of the early companions, with Allah’s assistance, the Qur’an as we have it today is recited in the same manner as it was revealed. This makes it the only religious scripture that is still completely retained and understood in its original language. Indeed, as Sir William Muir states, “There is probably no other book in the world which has remained twelve centuries [now fourteen] with so pure a text” [46].

    The evidence above confirms Allah's promise in the Qur'an: “Verily, We have revealed the Reminder, and verily We shall preserve it.” (Q.15:9). The Qur'an has been preserved in both oral and written form in a way no other book has, and with each form providing a check and balance for the authenticity of the other.

    But though it is proven that the text of the Qur’an has remained intact till today, how are we sure that that words actually originated from God and not some other source? This takes us to look at the authenticity, authority, or source of the Qur’an.
    So, basically this states that Uthman put the Koran to writing, but he wasn't told to do it by Allah per se by pressurized to do it by people complaining about losing the language it as supposed to be recited in which is the Qurush language. Is that right? So he borrowed Hafasha's copy and returned it to her after using the help of text, but where is her copy now?

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    So, basically this states that Uthman put the Koran to writing, but he wasn't told to do it by Allah per se by pressurized to do it by people complaining about losing the language it as supposed to be recited in which is the Qurush language. Is that right? So he borrowed Hafasha's copy and returned it to her after using the help of text, but where is her copy now?
    i got no idea what your talking about, post the source of your information, if you have problems with uthman Quran then i can provide you a Quran found even before that which is dated close to the lifetime of prophet Muhammad pbuh and guess what? its also word to word accurate and unchanged.

    there is no point of you asking for a copy directly signed by prophet Muhammad pbuh because i have already answered that questions, the Quran or recitals was given in a way of gift to make it ez to memorize and from prophet Muhammad pbuh to todays 8 million Hafiz have been reciting the same verses in same language. The Quran itself says it was way of memorizing and in addition it was put into text for further preservation and its amazing even the first found text is so accurate and original and dated close to the time of prophet. The whole set of verses are first person from God it doest talk about someone else like in the bible, it directly talks to humanity from Gods point of view. its simple logic, when the language is not dead, the message also does not die, Arabic is still active around the world

    see the list of Hafiz from the first generation which are traced with evidence

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hafiz

    and all of them are companions of prophet who can be traced down until Uthman and even further.

    you a person who believe multiple books written by random people later printed by random people and non of them is even is from first person or eye witness view. no one knows who exactly put those random books together and how many were rejected. then for 1600 years it was continuously changed and altered or trimmed. having this in your hand your complaining about a book that's never changed from the oldest found copy upto this day, a book that talks in first person and a book thats memorized by millions from its 1st generation to today as traced in the link i posted.

    so now i provided the names, carbon dated copies, proof of hafiz from gen1 to today.. now why dont you prove who put the bibles together? who wrote mark and mathew? why was it changed for 1600 years?

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hate Racism View Post
    i got no idea what your talking about, post the source of your information, if you have problems with uthman Quran then i can provide you a Quran found even before that which is dated close to the lifetime of prophet Muhammad pbuh and guess what? its also word to word accurate and unchanged.

    there is no point of you asking for a copy directly signed by prophet Muhammad pbuh because i have already answered that questions, the Quran or recitals was given in a way of gift to make it ez to memorize and from prophet Muhammad pbuh to todays 8 million Hafiz have been reciting the same verses in same language. The Quran itself says it was way of memorizing and in addition it was put into text for further preservation and its amazing even the first found text is so accurate and original and dated close to the time of prophet. The whole set of verses are first person from God it doest talk about someone else like in the bible, it directly talks to humanity from Gods point of view. its simple logic, when the language is not dead, the message also does not die, Arabic is still active around the world

    see the list of Hafiz from the first generation which are traced with evidence

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hafiz

    and all of them are companions of prophet who can be traced down until Uthman and even further.

    you a person who believe multiple books written by random people later printed by random people and non of them is even is from first person or eye witness view. no one knows who exactly put those random books together and how many were rejected. then for 1600 years it was continuously changed and altered or trimmed. having this in your hand your complaining about a book that's never changed from the oldest found copy upto this day, a book that talks in first person and a book thats memorized by millions from its 1st generation to today as traced in the link i posted.

    so now i provided the names, carbon dated copies, proof of hafiz from gen1 to today.. now why dont you prove who put the bibles together? who wrote mark and mathew? why was it changed for 1600 years?
    No, I don't have a problem with it I just asked a question. What would make you think that?

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    Re: Who wrote Matthew ? Who wrote Luke ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    No, I don't have a problem with it I just asked a question. What would make you think that?
    i have provided enough information for a person with open mind, now its your turn to provide the carbon dated copies of first bible, proving it was not altered, and providing the relationship between all its authors to Jesus directly. and also the golden question as always proving mathew wrote mathew or luke wrote luke.

 

 

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