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    Odan talibilm09's Avatar
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    'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Hi, Peace & greetings to those who seek Guidance,

    Apologetics on line have made it as a big business (Get donations) by attacking the Noble Quran and Its Prophet just to cheat the common man (All, Christians, Jews & Muslims) by Twisting, hiding those verses. Let see some methods how they TWIST the verses of the Noble Quran from their correct meaning.

    1) They never EVEN TRY to refer Why and when those verses were revealed and thats lead to quote them out of Context.

    2)The meaning of a particular verse can also understood by referring to the preceding or the proceeding verse which most of the Apologetics do not care or many times hide them.

    3)Its important to know the whole Quran because many times one verse from one Sura acts as an explanation or Tafsir for the Other verse somewhere in the other sura in an correlated manner like these two verses http://quran.com/17/1 and http://quran.com/53/12-18 and there are many like them.

    4) Also is the remembrance of Hadith and events and their explanation through the hadith or iow explanation or Tafsir is very important. Even knowledgeable Muslims are warned giving opinions of their own (as per hadith ) but refer to the related narration of hadith about a particular verse.

    5) More technicalities like revelation at the same time but distributed different chapters,also suras Like Sura 3 was revealed at 4 different periods etc etc , The first part revealed (1-80 verses) during the arrival of Christian delegation of Najran know from Two narrations of Sahabas one from Sahel bin Abu Umama (raa) ref: Bai haqi) and the next from Rabi(raa) ref: Ibn Abi Hateem and chain of Narrators) (ref Tafsir Ibn Abbas : the extended version in Urdu)

    6)Last but not the least just following all these things still won't be enough untill Allah swt opens our heart and makes us understand the real meaning of them and Allah does that Only to the righteous Pious people who gives them its understanding and who get guided so. and some more rules........which i have not written here

    So Lets start with the Most favourite & Strongest Argument fo the Chrisitian and Jewish Apologetics the verse 10:94 from Noble Quran


    (Noble Quran 10:94)
    '' And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that was) before thee. Verily the Truth from thy Lord hath come unto thee. So be not thou of the waverers.''



    ( Noble Quran inside brackets)Tafsir or explanation Ibn Abbas outside brackets

    (And if thou) O Muhammad (art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee) concerning that with which We sent Gabriel, i.e. the Qur'an, (then question those who read the Scripture) i.e. the Torah ((that was) before you) 'Abdullah Ibn Salam and his followers.The Prophet (pbuh) did not ask nor was he ever in doubt about the Qur'an. Rather, Allah was addressing with these words the people of the Prophet. (Verily the Truth from thy Lord) i.e. Gabriel with the Qur'an from your Lord, containing the events of past nations (hath come unto thee) O Muhammad. (So be not thou of the waverers) be not of the doubters.

    Elaboration: Could be only understood by seeing When and why this verse was revealed and its Aim. this was THE first chance For The NEW EMIGRANTS to Medina, THE Meccan Muslims,(623 AD) to ask any references from the Torah since Jewish Rabbis of Medina, Abdullah ibn Salam & group , Zayd Ibn Sanah Ibn have embraced Islam (extended tafsir says this verse was mainly intended to the Emigrant Meccan Muslims by addressing to the Prophet(pbuh) ) since they were polytheists not knowing about Gabriel or Scriptures before and that is proved by the FACT most of them were DEAD AGAINST ISLAM with very slow conversion UNLIKE the Polytheists of Medina, The Medinites, who were already acquainted with this Message ( One God,Gabriel, scriptures, after life etc and some notes) because they lived with the 3 Jewish tribes and who used to mock them (the Medinites or the natives of Medina (Yatrib) BOASTING, We Jews are the Chosen People of God and we will come with our Last Prophet and humiliate, belittle, and soon rule over you'' so thats why when the group of 7 or 8 of Medinite Youth who met Prophet (pbuh) at the trade fair in Mecca jumped right away into Islam in few minutes of Prophets words though they have never ever met him before nor asked for any Miracles and returned immediately to convert 80 % of their tribes right away without even Meeting the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).

    So The above tafsir is clear enough it refers to asking IFwhether they had any Doubts about Gibraeel or Gabriel who brought the message of Quran was it real are not ? and about the Noble Quran, to check did they(jews) have corresponding same stories ( Adam, Noah,Abraham,Jacob etc etc) in the Torah or not ? since their Cheif Rabbis have sworn Oath of Allegiance to Islam and became devout muslims and its ONLY now the MUSLIMS can openly ask ( not awkward or ugly) from those converted Rabbis, their doubts about Gabriel or above mentioned stories are there in their books Or Not ?

    Verification Of Torah was not a Easy job those days are not like today many Printed Books found widespread
    But those times Scriptures were Hand written and very RARE and Strictly kept By ONLY THE FEW TOP RABBIS, and Abdullah Ibn salam was the MOST RESPECTED JEWISH RABBI FOR THE JEWS LIKE A POPE for the Christians Today and Listen To Abdullah Ibn Salam himself what he says in post # 11 http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...e-be-upon-him)
    But Prophet(pbuh)replied to the verse something like I will not ask anything from Abdullah ibn salam because I HAVE NO DOUBTS so no need to refer about anything AND WHY WOULD HE DOUBT WHEN HE ALREADY FLEW TO JERUSALEM AND THE SKIES AND MET MANY PROPHETS INCLUDING ABRAHAM , MOSES, JESUS ETC (PBU THEM ALL )

    IF DOUBTS OCCUR THEY SHOULD OCCUR WHEN THEY WERE NEW TO ISLAM WHEN HE RECEIVED THE REVELATIONS IN THE 1ST ,2ND OR THE 3RD YEAR AND 4 TH YEAR THE CHRISTIAN KING OF ABYSSINIA CONFIRMED THE SURAH19 MARYAM WAS FROM THE SAME SOURCE, THE TRUE ONE GOD OF THE GOSPEL AND EMBRACED ISLAM IMMEDIATELY and never even discussed the matter of Crucifictiuon AND THAT PROVES NO ONE CAN DOUBT AFTER 13 YEARS AFTER WATCHING Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) PERFORMING GREAT MIRACLES OF THE SPLITTING OF THE MOON ( http://quran.com/54/1-3 ), TRAVEL TO JERUSALEM & SKIES IN THE SAME NIGHT & BACK ( http://quran.com/17/1 , http://quran.com/53/12-15 ) OTHER MANY MIRACLES OF STONE, MOVING & talking, ON IKRIMAH'S REQUEST,Trees,many Animals talking ETC.
    So in this verse .The Christian apologetics Have NO CHANCE TO CLAIM ANYTHING since this Verse is explicitly about the Torah and the Jews.



    This verse was revealed in Medina (Yatrib,623 AD) when Prophet(pbuh) had Migrated From Mecca to Medina(Yatrib) after 10+3 (boycott)= 13 years of Gruesome Hardship where during His arrival the three Emigrant Jewish tribes of Medina who had come from the Civilized Developed Rome and Jerusalem only to receive the last Prophet foretold in their Books waiting for more than a century expecting him within themselves, The Jews, The Progeny of Issac but on knowing that the Prophet has come in the Progeny of Ishamel, The Arabs They the Jews made an U turn to reject Prophet Muhammad except some like Abdullah ibn Salam , Their Cheif And Rabbi and His Family and Group and Zayd Ibn Sanah, the Wealthiest Rabbi and Donated half of his wealth to Muslims and died as A Martyr.
    .

    This Verse actually ALSO PROVES Prophet(pbuh) untill then never checked or read Torah Or Gospel before unlike Apologetics claim and also Woraqa bin Naufal who was the first converted Christian & Learned Person to confirm that the Angel that Muhammad (pbuh) Met & saw was the same Angel who came to Jesus, Moses but had died after just a few days, as per sahih hadith, after Meeting Our Prophet (pbuh) and even after wards Prophet (pbuh) did not try to verify Torah also once Prophet(pbuh)'s face got red angry on seeing Umar(Raa) for reading the Torah at the Prophet's Masjid at Medina because If even Moses was there then he will reading the Noble Quran and Umar(Raa) apologised kneeling down saying '' I am satisfied with Allah as My Lord, Islam as my Deen (way of life) and Muhammad(Salalahu alihi wasallam) as My Nabi(Prophet)





    (Noble Quran 3:3-4)

    '' He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel. Aforetime, for a guidance to mankind; and hath revealed the Criterion (of right and wrong). Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah, theirs will be a heavy doom. Allah is Mighty, Able to Requite (the wrong)



    Tafsir Ibn Abbas(raa)

    (He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture) He sent you Gabriel with the Scripture (with truth) in order to show truth from falsehood, (confirming) corroborating Allah's divine Oneness (that which was (revealed) before it) of scriptures, (even as He revealed the Torah) in one go to Moses the son of Amran (and the Gospel) in one go to the Jesus the son of Mary.''(Aforetime) before Muhammad and the Qur'an, (for a guidance to mankind) as a guidance from error to the Children of Israel; (and hath revealed the Criterion (of right and wrong)) He revealed the Qur'an to Muhammad in instalments to differentiate the lawful from the unlawful. (Lo! those who disbelieve the revelations of Allah) Muhammad and the Qur'an, referring in this context to the delegation of Najran, (theirs will be a heavy doom) in this world and in the next. (Allah is Mighty) powerful in His vengeance, (Able to Requite (the wrong)) able to carry His vengeance out on them.

    Note: Apologetics claim this Quran verse confirms the Torah and the Gospel as the Guidance for All (including the muslims) but the tafsir says THE FURQAAN ( THE other Name of Quran) Or THE CRITERION which points out clearly what is Right Or Wrong, The Noble Quran was revealed 'in order to show (differentiate) truth from falsehood, corroborating or CONFIRMING Allah's divine Oneness '' IOW it refers those verses from Torah and Gospel confirming of the Oneness of Allah and rejecting falsehood WHICH WAS SENT AS GUIDANCE TO THOSE PEOPLE BEFORE (note : the word ' AFORETIME'610 AD approx refers to Jews & Christians) )that was still intact or Uncorrupted in those books at those times. Even NOW a few Such verses are seen such as God in one with no Form, God is not a man who Lies etc and also WARNS disbelievers oh a Heavy Punishment in both the worlds since Allah is all powerful to execute it.



    (Noble Quran 5:47)
    ''Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers.''



    Tafsir Ibn abbas

    (Let the People of the Gospel judge) such that the people of the Gospel elucidate (by that which Allah hath revealed therein) that which Allah has elucidated in the Gospel regarding the traits and description of Muhammad (pbuh) and the legal ruling of stoning. (Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed) He says: whoever does not show that which Allah has elucidated in the Gospel; (such are evil-doers) transgressing disbelievers.

    Note: here the Verse refers to the Christians to judging or shed light or illuminate about the traits of the comforter which has been foretold in John regarding the traits of prophet Muhammad like https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...4+&version=CJB and which suits ONLY Muhammad(pbuh)[/B] The Prophet and also to use the law still intact, unaltered (those days during 623AD) regarding the verses of Stoning etc and Not to Hide them and who does hide them or Do not illuminate the truth are the rebellious and the Next verse strengthens this stance (explanation) more which is http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?...0&LanguageId=2

    In short (after using the next verse not displayed here) it refers Allah has revealed this Quran to differentiate between Truth & falsehood regarding rules & law of Allah's divine Oneness and some laws of stoning still in tact in the previous sripture and safe guarding them (some of those rules still remaining true in in tact) and Not to follow the Vain desire of Jews & Christians by deviating From Guidelines of the Noble Quran and.......there is more, kindly read for yourselves



    NOBLE (QURAN 10:64)

    ''Theirs are good tidings in the life of the world and in the Hereafter - There is no changing the Words of Allah - that is the Supreme Triumph.''



    Tafsir ibn Abbas
    ''(Theirs are good tidings in the life of the world) through good dream visions which they see or are seen in their favour (and in the Hereafter) by entering Paradise. (There is no changing the Words of Allah) that they will enter Paradise (that) good tiding (is the Supreme Triumph) the abounding salvation: they earn Paradise and all that is in it and are saved from hell and all that is in it.

    Note : Even Such a Clear verse as this are also Twisted by apologetics by just quoting ''There is no changing the Words of Allah '' ONLY and fail to explain or Hide the Preceding Part which talks about the promise of Glad tidings in this world and the Herafter and says the is no change in Allah's word about that Good News of Big success of Paradise and safety from the Hell THAT ALLAH HAS PROMISED TO THE BELIEVERS but instead the Mischeif makers try to realate this to their Scriptures and say that their books are in tact and unchanged which if false because Allah WARNS us in these Verses (2:174, 2:75,79, 3:78, 5:15, 5:13-14, 6:91, 7:162,2:87) that they have concealed, distorted, added verses changed their from Right places which is THE BIGGEST SIN for which they will pay for their own such Sins and also for the sins all those Masses they cunningly mislead



    (Quran 18:27)
    And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him.


    Tafsir
    (And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord) He says: recite to them the Qur'an, neither increasing nor decreasing anything from it. (There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him) beside Allah.

    Note: Here it refers to the recitation of Noble Quran given to thee ,Muhanmmad(pbuh) (unlike the Jews who hid some verses and added some) without increasing or decreasing IOW not changing by concealing or adding because no one has the Authority to change Allah's words.




    (Noble Quran 29:46)
    '' And argue not with the People of the Scripture unless it be in (a way) that is better, save with such of them as do wrong; and say: We believe in that which hath been revealed unto us and revealed unto you; our God and your God is One, and unto Him we surrender.''



    Tafsir

    ''(And argue not with the People of the Scripture) the Jews and Christians (unless it be in (a way) that is better) i.e. by the Qur'an, (save with such of them as do wrong) from among the delegation of Najran, then you can do so by means of Mula'anah; (and say: We believe in that which has been revealed unto us) i.e. the Qur'an (and revealed unto you) the Torah and the Gospel; (our God and your God is One) He has no son or partner, (and unto Him we surrender) we are sincere to Him in our worship and profession of Allah's divine Oneness, and we believe in Him.

    This verse teaches method of dawah to argue politely as much as possible but gives us the permission to be tough when the opposite side behave unfair as in the case of delegation of Najran Christians (who were arguing too much that lead to Prophet(pbuh) calling to a for Mubahala (Imprecation)or the open swearing of Allah's curse & torment to be on the Liars at which they backed off on their priest's warning http://www.ezsoftech.com/islamic/mubahila.asp ) and also teaches to start with matters which are in common iow talk about the things we agree like One God and his books.Its also known from hadith narrators when Jews try to teach Muslims by translating their books into Arabic prophet told them something like to listen but not to believe or disbelieve in them because the Muslims did not knew Hebrew but say in common that those books were from Our same God who is one who send those books earlier and the Noble Quran to us.But their books did not have porn content those days and were not tampered to the level which is today.

    This sort reply suits the best to be given to People like the group of Abdullah Ibn Salam, The Chief, Rabbi of the Jews (its known from the tafsir next verse) then who are entering Islam that time since Only These people referred to the correct verses of the Torah so they are addressed by Noble Quran as as we believe in that which has been revealed to you (those correct verses) and Since Abdullah ibn salam read & believed those correct verses (without twisting, hiding, concealing or being biased as he was their Chief Rabbi ) and they did not wait to become Muslims and accept Allah and his Prophet. And so its referred as that, we believe those were the books Originally revealed by the same source, One God, Allah (though later got corrupted as in verses 2:174, 2:75,79, 3:78, 5:15, 5:13-14, 6:91, 7:162 ,2:87)

    next verse Muhsin Khan
    Noble Quran 29:47 ''And thus We have sent down the Book (i.e this Quran) to you (O Muhammad SAW), and those whom We gave the Scripture [the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) aforetime] believe therein as also do some of these (who are present with you now like 'Abdullah bin Salam) and none but the disbelievers reject Our Ayat [(proofs, signs, verses, lessons, etc., and deny Our Oneness of Lordship and Our Oneness of worship and Our Oneness of Our Names and Qualities: i.e. Islamic Monotheism)]

    Allah Knows the best. (since i could not compare them with other tafsir like Mahriful Quran if there were further additional info to the above verses they will be Inshallah -Godwillingly updated)
    Last edited by talibilm09; 29-08-15 at 12:21 PM.

  2. #81
    Odan snow_flakes's Avatar
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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    you said in post 70 contradictory statements about Jesus, but you don't tell me what those are. Then you said i said I said only Jesus only spoke of mercy and I said prove I said that. You post I said things I didn't say. And then you judge me on honesty. How can anyone have a discussion or debate with that???
    This is your answer?
    ".......He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them (kuffar) their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy.Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it;but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief."(5:64)

  3. #82

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by snow_flakes View Post
    This is your answer?
    CASE in point.....exactly

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    Odan snow_flakes's Avatar
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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    CASE in point.....exactly
    Ad hominem.
    ".......He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them (kuffar) their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy.Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it;but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief."(5:64)

  5. #84
    An-Najdi abufulaans's Avatar
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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Whatever the case is, Islam is the final message and the rulings on certain issues may have changed since the time of Isaa pbuh,
    That being said, Christians do seem to ignore teachings and story's in the bible or try to twist them so they mean something else

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by snow_flakes View Post
    Why not bring crusades or holy wars if you can bring jehad to blame it on muslims and justify christianity with peace but practice the opposite.
    Preach or debate what is truth.Jehad word is used by you in post 54...that jesus disciples also taught jehad...
    So now you are changing jehad meanings...Come up with solid excuses.
    Sorry, but truly I'm not getting your point here. I thought Jihad in Islam meant NON VIOLENT STRUGGLE... LIKE A SPIRITUAL STRUGGLE WITHIN ONESELF... Sorry for the caps.. But I want to emphasis this point because I think it's important. Are you saying I am wrong to compare the concept of christian Jihad with islamic Jihad? Are you saying Jihad in Islam means violent struggle? And not as I believed it to be a personal struggle?

    Could you answer these questions please.. Instead of ignoring them or making something up that I did not say. Because if I am wrong... And you do I fact believe that Jihad in Islam is violence towards others. Then, I am mistaken and there is no resemblance between Christianity and Islam on this point.

    Btw... It was a Muslim that told me Jihad meant a spiritual struggle within oneself.

    If you want to talk crusades then start a thread.

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    (Quran 18:27)
    And recite that which hath been revealed unto thee of the Scripture of thy Lord. There is none who can change His words, and thou wilt find no refuge beside Him.
    I'm confused here.... Words in red... Don't muslims believe this then?

  8. #87
    An-Najdi abufulaans's Avatar
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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbed View Post
    Sorry, but truly I'm not getting your point here. I thought Jihad in Islam meant NON VIOLENT STRUGGLE... LIKE A SPIRITUAL STRUGGLE WITHIN ONESELF... Sorry for the caps.. But I want to emphasis this point because I think it's important. Are you saying I am wrong to compare the concept of christian Jihad with islamic Jihad? Are you saying Jihad in Islam means violent struggle? And not as I believed it to be a personal struggle?

    Could you answer these questions please.. Instead of ignoring them or making something up that I did not say. Because if I am wrong... And you do I fact believe that Jihad in Islam is violence towards others. Then, I am mistaken and there is no resemblance between Christianity and Islam on this point.

    Btw... It was a Muslim that told me Jihad meant a spiritual struggle within oneself.

    If you want to talk crusades then start a thread.
    There are different types, I think there are 4 main ones that all strivings can be classified into
    Striving against oneself is one of them no doubt, and all Muslims are doing this all the time but it is NOT the only type no way
    As for violence, well define it first and I'll answer that as well
    Just because a Muslim told you something doesn't mean he's fully correct, if you want to learn about Islam then read the Quran and hadith and books of the scholars

  9. #88
    Odan talibilm09's Avatar
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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    I misquote what? Can you prove that I misquote the Quran? I copied and paste it from the Quran; so how do you figure that to be a misquote or did you mean I misconceived the verse? Even that you cannot prove, because I said I take the verse for what it says and that it is clear not in need of interpretations.
    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    If the Quran states that Allah's word is unalterable and he sent the torah and the gospel for guidance and light while Muhammad was still in process of receiving revelation, how is it now corrupted? When did it happen, who did it, why, and where did it happen? Where is the proof it is not exactly the way Allah sent it? Isn't that a contradiction to say the torah and gospel are corrupted? Saying the torah and gospel are corrupted leaves many questions unanswered. Muslims that claim this have us Christians stump and bumped on this without cause!
    THE LIAR

    This is the usual Style of these 'TWISTERS' questions because they '' ACT '' dishonestly ''IGNORANT'' by ACTING not to understand EVEN the Clear Noble Quran verses like 10:64 etc so we can't lead those '' ACT '' Blind Or we can wake up people sleeping but not those USED to '' ACT" SLEEPING '' Its ALREADY BEEN EXPLAINED in post # 1 about your false TWISTED claims '' Allah's word never Change '' 10:64 which is EASY to understand Since its self explaining but the Liars Keep MISQUOTING, TWISTING IT & arguing inspite of explaining to these TROLLS who do not want to understand or learn Islam but Create unreasonable issues even tafsir of 5:47 in the below post and the next verse of 10:64 is well explained below

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...by-Apologetics POST # 1

    NOBLE (QURAN 10:64)

    ''Theirs are good tidings in the life of the world and in the Hereafter - There is no changing the Words of Allah - that is the Supreme Triumph.''


    ITS VERY CLEAR ' there is no changing in Allah words regarding the good tidings Or Promise of Victory in this world ( Sheep ,camel herders became The world rulers, super powers after defeating the Byzantine, and Persian ) and the world hereafter , Still the Blind & deaf Keep repeating the same question Or Allege the same things '' That Allah's words never change '' and their distorted books (As per Quran) are unchanged (Contradicting, and opposite To the Claims of Noble Quran for which the last Prophet (pbuh ) came to EXPOSE these Mischeif makers, distorters of Holy Books,liars, Incest lovers ,adulterers, perverts, drunkards )

    The verse Quran which guarantees from Alteration is ONLY for the Noble Quran since its the LAST BOOK and there is no more Holy Book that will come untill the day of Judgement similar with case of the LAST MESSENGER Muhammad ONLY.[/COLOR]

  10. #89

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    There are different types, I think there are 4 main ones that all strivings can be classified into
    Striving against oneself is one of them no doubt, and all Muslims are doing this all the time but it is NOT the only type no way
    As for violence, well define it first and I'll answer that as well
    Just because a Muslim told you something doesn't mean he's fully correct, if you want to learn about Islam then read the Quran and hadith and books of the scholars
    Thank you, I did not know there were different types of Jihad. If you see why this topic was raised it was in response to snow_flakes claim that Jesus taught violent Jihad. He/she based this claim on misunderstanding of biblical scripture. During a recent conversation with my friend (muslim) he said Jihad was meant as a spiritual struggle within oneself and NOT violence coercion... I was seeking clarification on what the term means to muslims.. As christians also believe in the concept of personal spiritual struggle. I saw this as a similarity to be praised, but snow_flakes (misunderstanding) went on to accuse me of implying Islam was violent and Christianity is not.. Which I did not do.

    I appreciate when one comes into a dialogue half way through the whole meaning of what has transpired may not be clear, but I hardly think that warrants a negative rep mark against my person!

    Define Violence? When one wilfully hurts another usually physically in order to change a persons point of view.. At least in the context of this dialogue. Jesus did not command His followers to harm or fight any person who did not believe in Him or the truth He brought.

    I have read the Quran, it's not clear on many points and so as I do not have access to a "scholar" the next best thing I ask a Muslim. My friend I have known for years is a good person and for sure it would seem to be a better representative of muslims than is often presented on forums, but then I see that a problem with language differences and not having face to face contact is only natural that on forums it is very easy to misjudge a person or their intentions. There seems to be barrier to asking the questions one needs answering because very early on when one is called a liar and troll etc.. It's not conducive to decent dialogue. Who knows I may well have been a Muslim by now if a different approach had been used by some. I can see that also is perhaps a consequence of over time seeing all christians as some kind of enemy... It's possible to lose sight of the individual.

  11. #90
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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbed View Post
    Thank you, I did not know there were different types of Jihad. If you see why this topic was raised it was in response to snow_flakes claim that Jesus taught violent Jihad. He/she based this claim on misunderstanding of biblical scripture. During a recent conversation with my friend (muslim) he said Jihad was meant as a spiritual struggle within oneself and NOT violence coercion... I was seeking clarification on what the term means to muslims.. As christians also believe in the concept of personal spiritual struggle. I saw this as a similarity to be praised, but snow_flakes (misunderstanding) went on to accuse me of implying Islam was violent and Christianity is not.. Which I did not do.

    I appreciate when one comes into a dialogue half way through the whole meaning of what has transpired may not be clear, but I hardly think that warrants a negative rep mark against my person!

    Define Violence? When one wilfully hurts another usually physically in order to change a persons point of view.. At least in the context of this dialogue. Jesus did not command His followers to harm or fight any person who did not believe in Him or the truth He brought.

    I have read the Quran, it's not clear on many points and so as I do not have access to a "scholar" the next best thing I ask a Muslim. My friend I have known for years is a good person and for sure it would seem to be a better representative of muslims than is often presented on forums, but then I see that a problem with language differences and not having face to face contact is only natural that on forums it is very easy to misjudge a person or their intentions. There seems to be barrier to asking the questions one needs answering because very early on when one is called a liar and troll etc.. It's not conducive to decent dialogue. Who knows I may well have been a Muslim by now if a different approach had been used by some. I can see that also is perhaps a consequence of over time seeing all christians as some kind of enemy... It's possible to lose sight of the individual.
    Which parts of the Quran are confusing?
    You must understand that the Quran was revealed over 23 years and the Muslims were in different stages and circumstances throughout
    And I cannot give anymore information about that on a public forum, if you want to learn more then simply go on some good Islamic websites to find out more
    Finally, Islam is not violent, the reason why fighting is prescribed is for many reasons such as: spreading Islam, removing oppression from Muslims, removing corruption, removing Muslims sins and other reasons
    And I finally ask you, are you just asking questions or do you really want to know about Islam?
    Give your most important questions first please

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Is this person a troll, if you think yes just stop replying and shell have to leave

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    Is this person a troll, if you think yes just stop replying and shell have to leave
    That's the way Even I thought First, to leave the Trolls alone but that does not work in reality, They are like blood sucking leaches , mosquitoes which inject poison (shirk) if you are unaware and not careful. They are Prejudiced people but try to pretend to be friends and civil ONLY on the outer but are disguised Evangelists on Job but unfortunately they are allowed here to spew their lies which would never have Reduced ''as now'' if Brothers & Sister's here did not try to Refute them with right answers but with a lot of wasting time due to the Troll's same repeated questions, allegations inspite of our Clear cut Answer

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    Which parts of the Quran are confusing?
    I hesitate to discuss the Quran, my feelings about it or questions I have. I know they will be taken the wrong way and certain muslims on this forum will only use it as another stick to beat me with. It's not my intention to diss the Quran in the same way some muslims diss the Bible. I want to understand what appears to me to be discrepancies and contradictions. I know you all say there are none, but it puzzles me for example.. It's claimed to be the direct word of God, I am understanding from that statement that every word is Gods. Yet I see mans words... Sura 5:32 (Table spread) is uncannily similar to the Sanhedrin 37a and that's a mans deliberations.. It is not found in scripture, but a commentary regarding scripture (Cain and Abel) and how a judgement is inferred from it. Why is it in the Quran? If you said the Quran was inspired by God like the Bible is then for me it would not be any issue at all.. But you say it's not... And I find it difficult to reconcile this with what I believe about God.

    You must understand that the Quran was revealed over 23 years and the Muslims were in different stages and circumstances throughout
    Why is that an issue? The Bible was revealed over a period of 1500 years. It's message is consistent throughout.

    And I cannot give anymore information about that on a public forum, if you want to learn more then simply go on some good Islamic websites to find out more
    I accept that this forum or indeed forums in general are not the best places to find out about Islam. I have used many sources over the years in my pursuit of knowledge. I don't expect to find answers here because all answers lie with God alone, I find praying for guidance in matters of spirituality is more beneficial than the opinions of men. Primarily my gripe is with those who mishandle the Biblical scriptures.. Not with Islam or your Prophet because in many instances I see similarities between Islam and the other two Abrahamic faiths Judaism and Christianity. I don't believe Mohammed ever abused the Biblical Scriptures and I do not believe he would be pleased at how some muslims today do so.

    Finally, Islam is not violent, the reason why fighting is prescribed is for many reasons such as: spreading Islam, removing oppression from Muslims, removing corruption, removing Muslims sins and other reasons
    I never said it was. Some Muslims are violent but that is so of the followers of any religion doesn't mean they are truly reflect the ideals of their respective religions. The point I was trying to make in my previous post was if we are to truly follow Jesus as christians.. Then Jesus did not give us the option to fight certainly for religion, religion is not important to God... Souls are important to God. We all have souls weather we subscribe to a religion or not. It's not religion that saves us it's faith in God and in His provision for us. We are to share the Gospel and share Jesus... Is that not also expected of you? To share the message of the Quran? There's no compulsion for any to listen or even take heed. God places us on our path in life, only God can change our direction.

    And I finally ask you, are you just asking questions or do you really want to know about Islam?
    The fact I am asking questions means I wish to know answers. I don't believe this is the right place though. When I joined I thought the term "comparative religion" meant what it said and it was a place where people of different faiths could discuss similarities and differences to better understand each other. When I see biblical scripture misinterpreted I feel obliged to offer explanation. Some do not understand that simply holding a different point of view does NOT make one a liar. I do not see the evidence you see that Mohammed was mentioned anywhere in the Bible, and indeed I am at a loss that you would think he would be... Seeing as muslims generally hold the view that the Bible is corrupt and can't be trusted!!! (Which no proof has been produced in support) yet you are happy to take certain verses out of context to validate Mohammed as a prophet from a book you believe can't be trusted. Does not that not seem incongruous to you?

    Give your most important questions first please
    I don't understand the nature of the hadiths to the Quran. Like, can one not gain an understanding of Islam with only the Quran. And what is a Tasfeers (not sure of spelling) and if it is also necessary how is it used? Because so far I only have a Quran.

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbed View Post
    I hesitate to discuss the Quran, my feelings about it or questions I have. I know they will be taken the wrong way and certain muslims on this forum will only use it as another stick to beat me with. It's not my intention to diss the Quran in the same way some muslims diss the Bible. I want to understand what appears to me to be discrepancies and contradictions. I know you all say there are none, but it puzzles me for example.. It's claimed to be the direct word of God, I am understanding from that statement that every word is Gods. Yet I see mans words... Sura 5:32 (Table spread) is uncannily similar to the Sanhedrin 37a and that's a mans deliberations.. It is not found in scripture, but a commentary regarding scripture (Cain and Abel) and how a judgement is inferred from it. Why is it in the Quran? If you said the Quran was inspired by God like the Bible is then for me it would not be any issue at all.. But you say it's not... And I find it difficult to reconcile this with what I believe about God.



    Why is that an issue? The Bible was revealed over a period of 1500 years. It's message is consistent throughout.



    I accept that this forum or indeed forums in general are not the best places to find out about Islam. I have used many sources over the years in my pursuit of knowledge. I don't expect to find answers here because all answers lie with God alone, I find praying for guidance in matters of spirituality is more beneficial than the opinions of men. Primarily my gripe is with those who mishandle the Biblical scriptures.. Not with Islam or your Prophet because in many instances I see similarities between Islam and the other two Abrahamic faiths Judaism and Christianity. I don't believe Mohammed ever abused the Biblical Scriptures and I do not believe he would be pleased at how some muslims today do so.



    I never said it was. Some Muslims are violent but that is so of the followers of any religion doesn't mean they are truly reflect the ideals of their respective religions. The point I was trying to make in my previous post was if we are to truly follow Jesus as christians.. Then Jesus did not give us the option to fight certainly for religion, religion is not important to God... Souls are important to God. We all have souls weather we subscribe to a religion or not. It's not religion that saves us it's faith in God and in His provision for us. We are to share the Gospel and share Jesus... Is that not also expected of you? To share the message of the Quran? There's no compulsion for any to listen or even take heed. God places us on our path in life, only God can change our direction.



    The fact I am asking questions means I wish to know answers. I don't believe this is the right place though. When I joined I thought the term "comparative religion" meant what it said and it was a place where people of different faiths could discuss similarities and differences to better understand each other. When I see biblical scripture misinterpreted I feel obliged to offer explanation. Some do not understand that simply holding a different point of view does NOT make one a liar. I do not see the evidence you see that Mohammed was mentioned anywhere in the Bible, and indeed I am at a loss that you would think he would be... Seeing as muslims generally hold the view that the Bible is corrupt and can't be trusted!!! (Which no proof has been produced in support) yet you are happy to take certain verses out of context to validate Mohammed as a prophet from a book you believe can't be trusted. Does not that not seem incongruous to you?



    I don't understand the nature of the hadiths to the Quran. Like, can one not gain an understanding of Islam with only the Quran. And what is a Tasfeers (not sure of spelling) and if it is also necessary how is it used? Because so far I only have a Quran.
    Ok
    1) It being in the Talmud does not mean that it wasn't prescribed for them, they could have changed it, taken in out ect, plenty of articles written regarding this
    2) The reason why the faiths are similar is because even the other two scriptures of the faiths were revelations from Allah, Many teachings have kept the same, many stories are the same because what has happened has happened and it doesnt change and the Quran corrects the mistakes due to change in the other scriptures. The Message of Worshiping one God has also remained the same but since the followers of the other faiths diviated, the Quran repeatedly stresses the fact of One God alone so there is no confusion
    3) That's the amazing thing you see, even though the bible has been changed, it still gives the true message of worshiping one God alone with no partner, its also amazing that it gives the glad tidings of the Final Messenger, Meaning if you study it properly even now then it will lead you to Islam
    4) The Quran Gives reference to the teachings of the prophet pbuh in many places, It is part of the religion so they are learnt together or else you only have half of the religion, the tafseers themselves are not needed but put evidences together in a simple way to make it easier to understand

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    Ok
    1) It being in the Talmud does not mean that it wasn't prescribed for them, they could have changed it, taken in out ect, plenty of articles written regarding this
    You're missing the point I think, or I am misunderstanding. If the Quran says that these words were gods words. Then a man centuries earlier said the same or very similar words. Do you mean God put the words in the man mouth? That does not work for me.. As the words from the Sanhedrin were NOT ever considered as divine scripture.. i:e not from God.

    2) The reason why the faiths are similar is because even the other two scriptures of the faiths were revelations from Allah, Many teachings have kept the same, many stories are the same because what has happened has happened and it doesnt change and the Quran corrects the mistakes due to change in the other scriptures. The Message of Worshiping one God has also remained the same but since the followers of the other faiths diviated, the Quran repeatedly stresses the fact of One God alone so there is no confusion [/QUOTE]

    Ok, I see your point. However, there is no actual proof of what if anything at all was changed in the scriptures. There is also a wealth of manuscript evidence to show that the scripture we have now are the same as they were before Mohammed. So when were they changed? Also throughout the Bible we clearly understand there is only ONE God, so I don't see any confusion. Unless it was intended for heretical sects in Arabia at that time, and I know there were such sects If memory serves me correctly the Marionites worshipped Mary. That makes sense to me.

    3) That's the amazing thing you see, even though the bible has been changed, it still gives the true message of worshiping one God alone with no partner, its also amazing that it gives the glad tidings of the Final Messenger, Meaning if you study it properly even now then it will lead you to Islam
    I'm not seeing here about the Bible being changed. Certainly, as far as worshipping one God goes.. It's as clear as crystal that God is one. The name God refers to Himself by "I AM" means self sufficient, as God is all powerful in need of no partners. I have studied the Bible for many years and there is no clear indication of another prophet to come after Christ. To come to the conclusion that there is one has to ignore context of the verses claimed by muslims for Mohammed. Now, context is important for verses in the Quran, for sure you would put someone right if they quoted a Sura out of context thereby making it seem to imply something other than it did. No different from the Bible.

    4) The Quran Gives reference to the teachings of the prophet pbuh in many places, It is part of the religion so they are learnt together or else you only have half of the religion, the tafseers themselves are not needed but put evidences together in a simple way to make it easier to understand
    I see, right Looks like I have some research to do on hadiths then. I assumed the Quran was sufficient on its own. I hear Bukhari mentioned a lot, would you say that was a good one? Also, if I may ask as a point of personal interest do the different sects of Islam use the same Hadiths or favour some above others? Can you direct to a reliable source where I can find out more about the hadiths?

    Thank you for your time.

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbed View Post
    You're missing the point I think, or I am misunderstanding. If the Quran says that these words were gods words. Then a man centuries earlier said the same or very similar words. Do you mean God put the words in the man mouth? That does not work for me.. As the words from the Sanhedrin were NOT ever considered as divine scripture.. i:e not from God.

    2) The reason why the faiths are similar is because even the other two scriptures of the faiths were revelations from Allah, Many teachings have kept the same, many stories are the same because what has happened has happened and it doesnt change and the Quran corrects the mistakes due to change in the other scriptures. The Message of Worshiping one God has also remained the same but since the followers of the other faiths diviated, the Quran repeatedly stresses the fact of One God alone so there is no confusion
    Ok, I see your point. However, there is no actual proof of what if anything at all was changed in the scriptures. There is also a wealth of manuscript evidence to show that the scripture we have now are the same as they were before Mohammed. So when were they changed? Also throughout the Bible we clearly understand there is only ONE God, so I don't see any confusion. Unless it was intended for heretical sects in Arabia at that time, and I know there were such sects If memory serves me correctly the Marionites worshipped Mary. That makes sense to me.



    I'm not seeing here about the Bible being changed. Certainly, as far as worshipping one God goes.. It's as clear as crystal that God is one. The name God refers to Himself by "I AM" means self sufficient, as God is all powerful in need of no partners. I have studied the Bible for many years and there is no clear indication of another prophet to come after Christ. To come to the conclusion that there is one has to ignore context of the verses claimed by muslims for Mohammed. Now, context is important for verses in the Quran, for sure you would put someone right if they quoted a Sura out of context thereby making it seem to imply something other than it did. No different from the Bible.



    I see, right Looks like I have some research to do on hadiths then. I assumed the Quran was sufficient on its own. I hear Bukhari mentioned a lot, would you say that was a good one? Also, if I may ask as a point of personal interest do the different sects of Islam use the same Hadiths or favour some above others? Can you direct to a reliable source where I can find out more about the hadiths?

    Thank you for your time.[/QUOTE]

    I didn't know internet debating could actually get boring
    For the Talmud thing I'll post some links next post
    Your right there isn't any confusion in the bible that there is Only one God alone, yet the MAJORITY of Christians believe in trinity, this is due to blind following of scholars, so The Quran challenges Christians to bring proof if they are truthful, Oneness Of God is the most important thing in Islam as well. Point is most Christians believe in trinity so the the Quran stresses the falseness of such a claim
    Many diviated sects have used weak hadith to back their claims unfortunately, to understand true Islam is quite simple, Follow the early generations of Muslims.
    http://www.onislam.net/english/shari...raditions.html
    I have not browsed that site so just look at that which I have checked myself

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    I'm not seeing here about the Bible being changed. Certainly, as far as worshipping one God goes.. It's as clear as crystal that God is one. The name God refers to Himself by "I AM" means self sufficient, as God is all powerful in need of no partners. I have studied the Bible for many years and there is no clear indication of another prophet to come after Christ. To come to the conclusion that there is one has to ignore context of the verses claimed by muslims for Mohammed. Now, context is important for verses in the Quran, for sure you would put someone right if they quoted a Sura out of context thereby making it seem to imply something other than it did. No different from the Bible.
    First of all, is this thread about misquoting or misinterpretationsof Scriptures? As for the Bible, I see that all Muslims that say the Scriptures were changed confuse mistranslations for corrupt Scripture or changed, but the fact is they cannot prove it was changed and corrupted, but they only make inferrence from the Quran that doesn't state the gospel has changed. Their theory is solely based on assumption, because the Quran says they didn't kill Jesus, but it was made to appear to them he was. From that Muslims conclude corruption, but the truth is God promised in both the torah, gospel and Quran his word is established and guarded. So the fact is if it is possible for any Scripture to be corrupted, it is possible to happen in the Bible or Quran. Muslims put the burden of distortion on the Bible only, (One way street) but we Christians see a two way street. If God couldn't or wouldn't preserve his word before, there is no reason to believe he would keep his word afterwards. So in my mind's eye, what came before has more weight.(that is the eyes of my heart or should I say the brain in my heart), lol.

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    First of all, is this thread about misquoting or misinterpretationsof Scriptures? As for the Bible, I see that all Muslims that say the Scriptures were changed confuse mistranslations for corrupt Scripture or changed, but the fact is they cannot prove it was changed and corrupted, but they only make inferrence from the Quran that doesn't state the gospel has changed. Their theory is solely based on assumption, because the Quran says they didn't kill Jesus, but it was made to appear to them he was. From that Muslims conclude corruption, but the truth is God promised in both the torah, gospel and Quran his word is established and guarded. So the fact is if it is possible for any Scripture to be corrupted, it is possible to happen in the Bible or Quran. Muslims put the burden of distortion on the Bible only, (One way street) but we Christians see a two way street. If God couldn't or wouldn't preserve his word before, there is no reason to believe he would keep his word afterwards. So in my mind's eye, what came before has more weight.(that is the eyes of my heart or should I say the brain in my heart), lol.
    Because the bible and torah was for the Children of Israel while the Qur'an is for mankind. Didn't Jesus pbuh say "I only came for the lost sheep of Israel?

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jannah Seeker View Post
    Because the bible and torah was for the Children of Israel while the Qur'an is for mankind. Didn't Jesus pbuh say "I only came for the lost sheep of Israel?
    14Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.


    18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Serada View Post
    14Afterward He appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at the table; and He reproached them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.


    18And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."
    So... another contradiction in the Bible

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post

    I didn't know internet debating could actually get boring
    For the Talmud thing I'll post some links next post
    Your right there isn't any confusion in the bible that there is Only one God alone, yet the MAJORITY of Christians believe in trinity, this is due to blind following of scholars, so The Quran challenges Christians to bring proof if they are truthful, Oneness Of God is the most important thing in Islam as well. Point is most Christians believe in trinity so the the Quran stresses the falseness of such a claim
    Many diviated sects have used weak hadith to back their claims unfortunately, to understand true Islam is quite simple, Follow the early generations of Muslims.
    http://www.onislam.net/english/shari...raditions.html
    I have not browsed that site so just look at that which I have checked myself
    Yes.. Internet debating can be boring. Of course you have a choice, you can always go do something else... Watch paint dry etc... I certainly have no wish to test your boredom threshold, so if you like we can end the dialogue here. Just to say your misunderstanding of trinity has nothing to do with the Oneness of God. I know it's a favoured point with muslims... But really it's not a big deal for christians it's simply a doctrine that best describes the nature of God (inasmuch we can ever understand a small part of what God is or indeed His greatness which is without parallel) as God revealed Himself to us in the Bible. Weather a person views God as a plural unity or singular unity (which I don't think works that well) there only ONE God.

    Thank you for the link you provided I'll check it out.

    Anyways all the best it was nice talking with you.

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jannah Seeker View Post
    So... another contradiction in the Bible
    No, the beginning is not the ending.

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jannah Seeker View Post
    Because the bible and torah was for the Children of Israel while the Qur'an is for mankind. Didn't Jesus pbuh say "I only came for the lost sheep of Israel?
    Yes, he did. this is not a contradiction to me and it proves that Jesus' message is universal for the world; not just the Jews as you stated. At first he came just for Jews but that reject the Messiah now he is for the world

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jannah Seeker View Post
    So... another contradiction in the Bible
    I see no contradictions here. As I mentioned, this is not a contradiction to, and it proves that Jesus' is the message and universal for the world; not just the Jews as you stated he said. At first he came just for Jews, but they rejected the Messiah; now he is for the world

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    you said in post 70 contradictory statements about Jesus, but you don't tell me what those are. Then you said i said I said only Jesus only spoke of mercy and I said prove I said that. You post I said things I didn't say. And then you judge me on honesty. How can anyone have a discussion or debate with that???
    "I only came for the lost sheep of Israel"-Jesus pbuh

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jannah Seeker View Post
    "I only came for lost sheep of Israel"-Jesus pbuh
    "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" Are Jews, Christians, Muslims, and all people groups creatures (God's creation) Yes they are. I rest my case. I have already explained that Jesus did come only for the Jew at first, but He didn't end with the Jews. Jews were supposed to give us the the message but they failed. Jesus is the truth, the way and the life meaning he is the message for all people because there is only one way and truth!!!!!!!

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature" Are Jews, Christians, Muslims, and all people groups creatures (God's creation) Yes they are. I rest my case. I have already explained that Jesus did come only for the Jew at first, but He didn't end with the Jews. Jews were supposed to give us the the message but they failed. Jesus is the truth, the way and the life meaning he is the message for all people because there is only one way and truth!!!!!!!


    And that is Islam!

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jannah Seeker View Post
    [/B]

    And that is Islam!
    Islam is derived from the Arabic root "Salema": peace, purity, submission and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law.


    No one ever did that better than the Prince of Peace, the word of God, the way, the truth and the life!

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    Islam is derived from the Arabic root "Salema": peace, purity, submission and obedience. In the religious sense, Islam means submission to the will of God and obedience to His law.


    No one ever did that better than the Prince of Peace, the word of God, the way, the truth and the life!
    Yes except Prophet Muhammad pbuh
    Can you give the reference of your quote from bible so I can check it out
    What are you talking about trinity isn't a problem, its the WORST problem, believing it is shirk and even according g to the bible you will not enter heaven if you don't believe God is one alone

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    Yes except Prophet Muhammad pbuh
    Can you give the reference of your quote from bible so I can check it out
    What are you talking about trinity isn't a problem, its the WORST problem, believing it is shirk and even according g to the bible you will not enter heaven if you don't believe God is one alone
    Muhammad? he was never called the Prince of Peace, the truth, the life and the way or the word of God or the author and finishher of our faith. How can any prophet be closer to God than being the word of God. What do you want proof of that Jesus is the word of God. John 1:1 For the rest just google the truth, life and the way or Prince of Peace and the verses will come up. Do your own research. I know what I am talking about and don't post untruth. Truth is Jesus. So any prophet that doesn't point to Jesus isn't point to the truth according to our Scriptures.

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    Muhammad? he was never called the Prince of Peace, the truth, the life and the way or the word of God or the author and finishher of our faith. How can any prophet be closer to God than being the word of God. What do you want proof of that Jesus is the word of God. John 1:1 For the rest just google the truth, life and the way or Prince of Peace and the verses will come up. Do your own research. I know what I am talking about and don't post untruth. Truth is Jesus. So any prophet that doesn't point to Jesus isn't point to the truth according to our Scriptures.
    Maybe I should write more clearly
    I meant prophet Muhammad pbuh is the greatest of creation and even better then prophet ida pbuh
    I want the proof that prophet Jesus was sent to everyone including non Jews, give the reference, I was talking about the prince quote or anything
    Proof that he was sent to whole of humanity, give me the exact place in the bible

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    Maybe I should write more clearly
    I meant prophet Muhammad pbuh is the greatest of creation and even better then prophet ida pbuh
    I want the proof that prophet Jesus was sent to everyone including non Jews, give the reference, I was talking about the prince quote or anything
    Proof that he was sent to whole of humanity, give me the exact place in the bible
    Yes, you have given me a better picture, but maybe I haven't made myself clear. No one can be greater than the creator. Jesus is the word God used to create all peoples and prophets. All things were made by Jesus for him, through him and without him nothing was made that was made whether they are seen or unseen.

    Besides, I don't believe any prophet was a better creation than another or any person for that matter. Moreover, Jesus wasn't created. He always existed as the word of God eternally and uncreated. So, it is the created vs the uncreated. I hope it is clear now that Jesus was never a messenger. Angels are messengers. Jesus is the only Message of God. IOW, it is messenger vs message and creation vs creator. One trumps the other by a long shot.

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    Yes, you have given me a better picture, but maybe I haven't made myself clear. No one can be greater than the creator. Jesus is the word God used to create all peoples and prophets. All things were made by Jesus for him, through him and without him nothing was made that was made whether they are seen or unseen.

    Besides, I don't believe any prophet was a better creation than another or any person for that matter. Moreover, Jesus wasn't created. He always existed as the word of God eternally and uncreated. So, it is the created vs the uncreated. I hope it is clear now that Jesus was never a messenger. Angels are messengers. Jesus is the only Message of God. IOW, it is messenger vs message and creation vs creator. One trumps the other by a long shot.
    From the beginning of time all the prophets and messengers preached the oneness of Allah and never taught the trinity like Abraham, Moses, Noah those before and after them peace be upon them they all preached Tawheed. The trinity can be found in many ancient pagan religions, it's just an corruption to the real religion of Jesus ,which is closest to Islam and is Islam.
    Last edited by Jannah Seeker; 31-01-15 at 01:01 AM.

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jannah Seeker View Post
    From the beginning of time all the prophets and messengers preached the oneness of Allah and never taught the trinity like Abraham, Moses, Noah those before and after them peace be upon them they all preached Tawheed. The trinity can be found in many ancient pagan religions, it's just an corruption to the real religion of Jesus ,which is closest to Islam and is Islam.
    Yes, from the beginning and so it is now. Christians are not told to teach or preach the trinity or tri unity of God in the Bible. Monothheism originated with the Jews and Christians; so it is nothing new. We accept monotheism. Our belief in Jesus doesn't change that, but God calls Jesus his son and there is no other name given whereby we might be saved. It is so sad that Jesus is not seen as the truth by all the Abrahamic faiths

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    Yes, from the beginning and so it is now. Christians are not told to teach or preach the trinity or tri unity of God in the Bible. Monothheism originated with the Jews and Christians; so it is nothing new. We accept monotheism. Our belief in Jesus doesn't change that, but God calls Jesus his son and there is no other name given whereby we might be saved. It is so sad that Jesus is not seen as the truth by all the Abrahamic faiths
    Salvation is in Allah the only one worthy of worship, believing in the trinity is not monotheism

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    Yes, from the beginning and so it is now. Christians are not told to teach or preach the trinity or tri unity of God in the Bible. Monothheism originated with the Jews and Christians; so it is nothing new. We accept monotheism. Our belief in Jesus doesn't change that, but God calls Jesus his son and there is no other name given whereby we might be saved. It is so sad that Jesus is not seen as the truth by all the Abrahamic faiths
    We believe Jesus pbuh is the truth (in a sense)
    Which is why he gave glad tidings of prophet Muhammad pbuh and of course preached about the oneness of God
    But the point is there is now a NEW prophet that the whole world should be following including Christians
    As for Jesus not being created, then please tell me why even your bible says virgin Mary RA gave birth to him! If that's not creation then I don't know what is! You are following g linguistic verses that state he was this and that as you just stated
    You still have not answered my question, GIVE ME THE REFERENCE IN THE BIBLE WHETE JESUS PBUH SAYS HE WAS SENT TO ALL OF MANKIND, I want to check it myself

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    We believe Jesus pbuh is the truth (in a sense)
    Yes, I know all Muslims believe this. I have even learned enough about Muslims to know in what snese they believe this. Muslims believe he is the truth like all prophets were the truth for their time such as Abraham was for his, Moses for his time, Jesus for his and Muhammad for his time, but we Christians see Jesus as the truth in a very different sense. For instance, we don't see him as one who shows the truth, but as being the truth. The sense we have is the difference between being and showing which is a significant difference (night and day difference)

    Quote Originally Posted by abufulaans View Post
    Which is why he gave glad tidings of prophet Muhammad pbuh and of course preached about the oneness of God
    But the point is there is now a NEW prophet that the whole world should be following including Christians
    As for Jesus not being created, then please tell me why even here, byour bible says virgin Mary RA gave birth to him! If that's not creation then I don't know what is! You are following g linguistic verses that state he was this and that as you just stated
    You still have not answered my question, GIVE ME THE REFERENCE IN THE BIBLE WHETE JESUS PBUH SAYS HE WAS SENT TO ALL OF MANKIND, I want to check it myself
    Yes, I understand what you believe here as well, but this is also what breaks my heart. We don't see it and it isn't because we don't want to. I have looked as objectively as poossible to understand how you see this and I am frying my brain in the process. I am dumbfounded; I am awestruck at the conviction you have that this is true and why don't all the Abrahamic faiths see it? I am broken hearted and sad about us having to try so desparately hard to convince the other that Jesus is the truth, the life and the way as God has revealed to us. We need God to intervene. We should be praying together for God to have mercy on us and show something that could unite us like a fast and prayer day together. We could agree to that couldn't we? We are a community on this forum so we should be able to speak to God with one voice that he would fix and give us something to unite us as part of the Abrahamic faith. Otherwise, we'll continue to just dig in our heels here.

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbed View Post
    Thank you, I did not know there were different types of Jihad. If you see why this topic was raised it was in response to snow_flakes claim that Jesus taught violent Jihad. He/she based this claim on misunderstanding of biblical scripture. During a recent conversation with my friend (muslim) he said Jihad was meant as a spiritual struggle within oneself and NOT violence coercion... I was seeking clarification on what the term means to muslims.. As christians also believe in the concept of personal spiritual struggle. I saw this as a similarity to be praised, but snow_flakes (misunderstanding) went on to accuse me of implying Islam was violent and Christianity is not.. Which I did not do.

    I appreciate when one comes into a dialogue half way through the whole meaning of what has transpired may not be clear, but I hardly think that warrants a negative rep mark against my person!

    Define Violence? When one wilfully hurts another usually physically in order to change a persons point of view.. At least in the context of this dialogue. Jesus did not command His followers to harm or fight any person who did not believe in Him or the truth He brought.

    I have read the Quran, it's not clear on many points and so as I do not have access to a "scholar" the next best thing I ask a Muslim. My friend I have known for years is a good person and for sure it would seem to be a better representative of muslims than is often presented on forums, but then I see that a problem with language differences and not having face to face contact is only natural that on forums it is very easy to misjudge a person or their intentions. There seems to be barrier to asking the questions one needs answering because very early on when one is called a liar and troll etc.. It's not conducive to decent dialogue. Who knows I may well have been a Muslim by now if a different approach had been used by some. I can see that also is perhaps a consequence of over time seeing all christians as some kind of enemy... It's possible to lose sight of the individual.
    Now you accuse me of claiming fisabillah jehad to be violent...this Jehad is not violent but physically fighting if to fight against tyrants that dont understabd via words or calls to justice.So stop acting as if you didnt know that jehad is not violance but a physical fight for justice.Rest types are also there.Jesus as ll fight a physical fight....
    You still didnt understand that jehad fisabillah ll always be here on earth till day 8f judgement be it by few muslims in some part of world...till in last jesus as ll come.Islam is not like christianity to believe in spiritualism only...it covers everything.
    ".......He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them (kuffar) their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy.Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it;but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief."(5:64)

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ4u View Post
    Yes, I know all Muslims believe this. I have even learned enough about Muslims to know in what snese they believe this. Muslims believe he is the truth like all prophets were the truth for their time such as Abraham was for his, Moses for his time, Jesus for his and Muhammad for his time, but we Christians see Jesus as the truth in a very different sense. For instance, we don't see him as one who shows the truth, but as being the truth. The sense we have is the difference between being and showing which is a significant difference (night and day difference)

    Yes, I understand what you believe here as well, but this is also what breaks my heart. We don't see it and it isn't because we don't want to. I have looked as objectively as poossible to understand how you see this and I am frying my brain in the process. I am dumbfounded; I am awestruck at the conviction you have that this is true and why don't all the Abrahamic faiths see it? I am broken hearted and sad about us having to try so desparately hard to convince the other that Jesus is the truth, the life and the way as God has revealed to us. We need God to intervene. We should be praying together for God to have mercy on us and show something that could unite us like a fast and prayer day together. We could agree to that couldn't we? We are a community on this forum so we should be able to speak to God with one voice that he would fix and give us something to unite us as part of the Abrahamic faith. Otherwise, we'll continue to just dig in our heels here.
    And i am not in shock...
    ".......He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them (kuffar) their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy.Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it;but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief."(5:64)

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    Re: 'MISQUOTED' Noble Quran verses by Apologetics.

    Quote Originally Posted by snow_flakes View Post
    And i am not in shock...
    Sorry, but are you asking or tellling?

 

 

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