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    Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Peace of greetings for those who strive to be guided,

    Why is Jesus not the Son of God ?

    The Best Logic Reply is the Video. Kindly give a chance to your Consciences , do not suppress it . Since its your Duty to search God like you search even in the simplest things needed for your Life. But God is the TOP MOST IMPORTANT need of Life.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=sREemKFBJX8

    May The All Mighty, Lord guide us all, Ameen.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by magok View Post
    son of god ?

    isnt he "god" according to christianity ?
    Both.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Talibilm09- your posts were about language affecting culture, but your arguments require culture to be affecting language.

    No-one knows for sure whether Jesus did speak Greek, but it seems likely for business reasons and as a common tongue with Gentiles. For a fuller explanation, try this.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghuraba321 View Post
    @magok
    Nobody knows akhi
    I am just as lost as you are
    This is rocket science
    The trinity thing is one of hardest things to grasp
    Firstly, because something is complicated, doesn't mean it's not true. Higher mathematics, for instance.

    Secondly, this might help.

    The Old Testament has a number of instances of God on earth. The Pillar of Cloud and Fire; God's presence in the Tabernacle and in the Temple ; The Burning Bush (Quran Ta Ha)

    These all talk about how God can show His presence on earth. They answer questions about how God can interact with humanity.

    Jesus was seen as the latest in that line, of God interacting physically with humanity.

    Jesus is God-with-us.

    The Holy Spirit is the same sort of thing, but can interact with all of us at once. A sort of permanent presence of God.

    (Sakinah in the Quran is not too far off.)

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    Both.
    intereting
    "arm yourself with knowledge and laugh at the accusers"
    me - 2017

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by magok View Post
    intereting
    It's the standard Christian view. Once you accept that then you can have all kinds of debate or heresy-hunt, depending on your taste.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    Firstly, because something is complicated, doesn't mean it's not true. Higher mathematics, for instance.

    Secondly, this might help.

    The Old Testament has a number of instances of God on earth. The Pillar of Cloud and Fire; God's presence in the Tabernacle and in the Temple ; The Burning Bush (Quran Ta Ha)

    These all talk about how God can show His presence on earth. They answer questions about how God can interact with humanity.

    Jesus was seen as the latest in that line, of God interacting physically with humanity.

    Jesus is God-with-us.

    The Holy Spirit is the same sort of thing, but can interact with all of us at once. A sort of permanent presence of God.

    (Sakinah in the Quran is not too far off.)

    You mind elaborate more on how did all these translate into Jesus becoming God ??

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    It's the standard Christian view. Once you accept that then you can have all kinds of debate or heresy-hunt, depending on your taste.
    Yes, interesting. How did the Christians came to this standard view ?? Did God say that Jesus is both Himself that is, God AND man or maybe Jesus himself said he is both man AND God ?? You mind quoting the scripture verses that said so.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Yes, interesting. How did the Christians came to this standard view ?? Did God say that Jesus is both Himself that is, God AND man or maybe Jesus himself said he is both man AND God ?? You mind quoting the scripture verses that said so.
    I'm not very interested in it. You can probably find dozens of explanations on the 'net. I think The doctrine that God is three-in-one and one-in-three derives from bits of the New Testament, I think.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    It's the standard Christian view. Once you accept that then you can have all kinds of debate or heresy-hunt, depending on your taste.
    truly interesting
    Last edited by magok; 09-10-17 at 10:46 PM.
    "arm yourself with knowledge and laugh at the accusers"
    me - 2017

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    You mind elaborate more on how did all these translate into Jesus becoming God ??
    First century Israel believed that at some point God was going to return to Israel, to rescue them from the enemies of God, and set up the Kingdom of God. He would declare judgement on the guilty, and establish a new relationship between God and His people. Sin and death would be defeated.

    They came to the conclusion that Jesus had done these things by His death and resurrection. These were jobs reserved for God alone. Guided by what Jesus said to them after the resurrection, and the ongoing advice of the Holy Spirit, they concluded that anyone doing the things reserved for God had to be God.

    Jesus was God on earth, the bit of God that got things done that only God can do.

    I hope this helps.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    I'm not very interested in it. You can probably find dozens of explanations on the 'net. I think The doctrine that God is three-in-one and one-in-three derives from bits of the New Testament, I think.
    Not really. In fact three in one isn't in the Bible at all. I don't think it's at all helpful as a description, anyway, and like a lot of Christians don't use it.

    Above I outline why the disciples concluded that Jesus was God on Earth. Jesus also talked about the coming of the Holy Spirit, who is God with everyone, and the experience of everyday Christians confirms that.

    The disciples, St Paul, every Christian, believes that God is One. No ifs, buts or argument about that. There is only One God.

    Jesus gave us a new understanding of what God was like, by being 'God with us'. The Holy Spirit is the part of God that supports us.

    Still One God, though.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    Not really. In fact three in one isn't in the Bible at all. I don't think it's at all helpful as a description, anyway, and like a lot of Christians don't use it.

    Above I outline why the disciples concluded that Jesus was God on Earth. Jesus also talked about the coming of the Holy Spirit, who is God with everyone, and the experience of everyday Christians confirms that.

    The disciples, St Paul, every Christian, believes that God is One. No ifs, buts or argument about that. There is only One God.

    Jesus gave us a new understanding of what God was like, by being 'God with us'. The Holy Spirit is the part of God that supports us.

    Still One God, though.
    I didn't say three-in-one is in the bible, just that it derives from the bible. It's a logical inference from some of the things in the gospels.
    "The disciples, St Paul, every Christian, believes that God is One. No ifs, buts or argument about that. There is only One God."...which is also three in some way, in the opinion of many Christians. The fact that they used to roast one another alive because they disagreed over quite how it was one-in-three and three-in-one shows that they took it seriously, with quite a few ifs and buts.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    First century Israel believed that at some point God was going to return to Israel, to rescue them from the enemies of God, and set up the Kingdom of God. He would declare judgement on the guilty, and establish a new relationship between God and His people. Sin and death would be defeated.

    They came to the conclusion that Jesus had done these things by His death and resurrection. These were jobs reserved for God alone. Guided by what Jesus said to them after the resurrection, and the ongoing advice of the Holy Spirit, they concluded that anyone doing the things reserved for God had to be God.

    Jesus was God on earth, the bit of God that got things done that only God can do.

    I hope this helps.
    Is that what your church told you ?? Sounds more like suppositions rather than facts. Then again, perhaps, they are not suppositions, so, can you support what you have just ‘explained’ above with references from the scripture ?

    You can start from where you get the idea (hopefully, from the scripture) that “First century Israel believed that at some point God was going to return to Israel”. I believe God is omnipresence which means He’s always present, never left, so, if the 1st century Jews believe God was going to return, that would mean, at some point, the Jews believed God left.

    Then, you can proceed to explain (hopefully, with references from the scripture too) what are 'jobs reserved for God alone' which Jesus was said to have done.

    Thanks, Alex.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    You might want to recalibrate your sights there, what with “What your church told you”.

    The academic literature on all this is quite extensive- you might want to research the Third Quest movement within modern Xian theology, who share these views across many belief positions e.g. Schafer 1972 looking at God's return from a rabbinic perspective.

    To start with, the idea of God being omnipresent being incompatible with God's return to Israel is a parade ground example of a category mistake. The first is a statement about God's nature, the second about God's action within History.

    Since you called for OT references for the return of God to Israel, I'll begin with these: Mal 3, Isaiah 66:12-19, Hag 2:7, Zech 2:10, Ezek 48:35. So many more...

    The Jewish nation did indeed believe that the Shekinah of God had left them, when they were punished for their failure to follow God, by the Babylonians smashing the Temple and taking them to exile.

    Jobs for God? God said he would return to Israel (see above) to redeem His people and show His glory to the world (Isa 52:7-10, Isa 66). He would set Israel as a light to the world (Isa 60:1-3) and bring salvation (Isa 62-64). He would inaugurate His Kingdom in which He would live amongst His people forever (Ezek 43). He would declare judgement (Isa 66)

    There's much more to this, as well, but I dislike overlong posts.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sceptic View Post
    I didn't say three-in-one is in the bible, just that it derives from the bible. It's a logical inference from some of the things in the gospels.
    It really isn't, and the Early Church never used to think that way. It's an over-complication best avoided.

    ...which is also three in some way, in the opinion of many Christians. The fact that they used to roast one another alive because they disagreed over quite how it was one-in-three and three-in-one shows that they took it seriously, with quite a few ifs and buts.
    Power corrupts. Tribalism leads to conflict. Atheists have the same problems. There's not even a whisper of a rumour of a hint that any of that can play any part whatsoever in the New Covenant set up by Jesus, and clear instructions from Him about not retaliating.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    You might want to recalibrate your sights there, what with “What your church told you”.
    What’s there to recalibrate ?? It’s a simple yes or no question. So, is that what your church told you ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    The academic literature on all this is quite extensive- you might want to research the Third Quest movement within modern Xian theology, who share these views across many belief positions e.g. Schafer 1972 looking at God's return from a rabbinic perspective.
    You might want to recalibrate your sights here as the belief in God and His prophets should come foremost from the scripture, NOT from academic literatures.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    To start with, the idea of God being omnipresent being incompatible with God's return to Israel is a parade ground example of a category mistake. The first is a statement about God's nature, the second about God's action within History.
    How is it ‘a category mistake’ ? God’s actions are the direct reflection of His natures or attributes. So, the omnipresence of God’s nature tells us He’s always with us – God never left ‘to return’. It’s man who left Him or in other words, they became lost. Jesus was sent to these ‘lost sheep’ so that they can return to God – Jesus was the shepherd who guide his sheep back home safely, which was why prophets are sent throughout the ages.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    Since you called for OT references for the return of God to Israel, I'll begin with these: Mal 3, Isaiah 66:12-19, Hag 2:7, Zech 2:10, Ezek 48:35. So many more...
    The Jewish nation did indeed believe that the Shekinah of God had left them, when they were punished for their failure to follow God, by the Babylonians smashing the Temple and taking them to exile.
    You may want to explain further on these OT references you quoted and how these point to the return of God to Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    Jobs for God? God said he would return to Israel (see above) to redeem His people and show His glory to the world (Isa 52:7-10, Isa 66). He would set Israel as a light to the world (Isa 60:1-3) and bring salvation (Isa 62-64). He would inaugurate His Kingdom in which He would live amongst His people forever (Ezek 43). He would declare judgement (Isa 66)
    These are ‘jobs for God’ which Jesus was said to have done ?? You need to do better than that to convince anyone that you know what you are talking about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    There's much more to this, as well, but I dislike overlong posts.
    Personally, I don’t really mind long postings as long as they are logical and rational explanations.

    Anyway, is that why your ‘explanations’ don’t seem to explain anything ? Is it because you do not like to read/write long explanations ? Well, Alex, when you try to make or explain a point, try to see them as your sincere effort to make good and clear explanations. In this way, your writings will not seem to be as ‘overlong posts’ – hope that helps.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    What’s there to recalibrate ?? It’s a simple yes or no question. So, is that what your church told you
    We're in an interregnum, and I would probably be the current church theologian; so it's more a case of me telling the church, if anything.

    the belief in God and His prophets should come foremost from the scripture, NOT from academic literatures.
    In order to understand the Bible, or anything else, we need to fully appreciate the background. Synergy.

    How is it ‘a category mistake’ ? God’s actions are the direct reflection of His natures or attributes.
    Actions and natures are different categories. “Good people do charity” The first part is about nature, the second about actions.

    So, the omnipresence of God’s nature tells us He’s always with us – God never left ‘to return’.
    Look at this another way. In the Jewish story of the Burning Bush, Moses was spoken to by God, who was present in the Burning Bush. This was a different type of presence to omnipresence, but doesn't conflict with it. Similarly God's presence- Shekinah- in the Jewish tabernacle. This is the sense in which God was not present, but had promised to be present. This is the type of return of God to Jerusalem that the Jews were waiting for.

    You may want to explain further on these OT references you quoted and how these point to the return of God to Israel.
    They're really rather straightforward, so I can't see how explanation is needed. For example, Zech 2:10 “"Shout and be glad, Daughter Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the LORD.” It's pretty clear it means that God has the intention of returning to live in Israel at some point.

    These are ‘jobs for God’ which Jesus was said to have done ?? You need to do better than that to convince anyone that you know what you are talking about.
    I'm not at all sure I see the problem. For example, the OT says that God will redeem His people, Jesus did it, job done. Hence Jesus is God. That's the sort of connection the Early Church made.

    Personally, I don’t really mind long postings as long as they are logical and rational explanations.
    Overlong posts tend not to be read carefully by many. It should not be so, but is.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    We're in an interregnum, and I would probably be the current church theologian; so it's more a case of me telling the church, if anything.
    Well, there’s truth in what you said there and that’s the very reason why modern Christianity has diverted from the true path. In the early days, those who control the government also had control over religion and thus, the early Church was dictated on its belief. In other words, the early Church was told by the power of the day on what to believe, what to say and what the public should know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    In order to understand the Bible, or anything else, we need to fully appreciate the background. Synergy.
    True and that’s why many of the Christianity beliefs are not based on the background of the scripture. For example, the doctrines of trinity/Jesus is God and original sin are not from the scripture but rather man-made beliefs and preached thru the centuries as ‘divine’ teaching.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    Actions and natures are different categories. “Good people do charity” The first part is about nature, the second about actions.
    Your actions are the reflection of your nature/character and thus, they should not be seen as two separate parts. Taking your example of “Good people do charity”, charity is one of the many things that good people do – it’s a reflection of the goodness in their character. Similarly, doing good deeds can be a reflection of your belief in a God. You cannot say you truly believe in a God and at the same time, do not believe in doing good deeds. Doing good deeds is part and parcel of believing in a God - they are not separate parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    Look at this another way. In the Jewish story of the Burning Bush, Moses was spoken to by God, who was present in the Burning Bush. This was a different type of presence to omnipresence, but doesn't conflict with it. Similarly God's presence- Shekinah- in the Jewish tabernacle. This is the sense in which God was not present, but had promised to be present. This is the type of return of God to Jerusalem that the Jews were waiting for.
    Just because God made His physical presence to Moses does not mean His presence is absent to the Jews or the others. To think that God ‘was not present’ at one time and ‘had promised to be present’ one day would be a gross misunderstanding on the Scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    They're really rather straightforward, so I can't see how explanation is needed. For example, Zech 2:10 “"Shout and be glad, Daughter Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you," declares the LORD.” It's pretty clear it means that God has the intention of returning to live in Israel at some point.
    As you said earlier ‘In order to understand the Bible, or anything else, we need to fully appreciate the background’, well, perhaps, you should take your own advice and understand Zechariah 2 in its proper context and background.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    I'm not at all sure I see the problem. For example, the OT says that God will redeem His people, Jesus did it, job done. Hence Jesus is God. That's the sort of connection the Early Church made.
    As I said before, the early Church was dictated on what to believe and what to say to the public by the power of the day. Can you show me one verse from the Bible which clearly showed that Jesus said he’s God or had said his ‘death’ will redeem the people of their sin ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    Overlong posts tend not to be read carefully by many. It should not be so, but is.
    They are not read carefully by many because many do not read to understand – they just read to comment. I believe you are one of them.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    In the early days, those who control the government also had control over religion and thus, the early Church was dictated on its belief. In other words, the early Church was told by the power of the day on what to believe, what to say and what the public should know.
    That's not the case- it is uncontroversial history that the Early Church (EC) was persecuted by all types of authorities because of their beliefs about Jesus. The Romans persecuted the EC because to claim Jesus was the one true God was to deny that the emperor was. The Greeks persecuted the EC because they were preaching that the city gods should be abandoned in favour of Jesus. The Jews violently objected to Jesus claim to be the Messiah and to be the divine replacement to God's house- the Temple. So all the pressure was against belief in Jesus as God.

    Your actions are the reflection of your nature/character and thus, they should not be seen as two separate parts.... Doing good deeds is part and parcel of believing in a God - they are not separate parts.
    A=>B does not mean A=B. I'm not sure all this is getting us anywhere useful.

    Just because God made His physical presence to Moses does not mean His presence is absent to the Jews or the others. To think that God ‘was not present’ at one time and ‘had promised to be present’ one day would be a gross misunderstanding on the Scripture.
    I have quoted a number of OT references in which the writers clearly expressed their views that God had abandoned them, but would return. Is the problem that you're not sure what my references were to? (Which certainly can be solved if so.)

    As you said earlier ‘In order to understand the Bible, or anything else, we need to fully appreciate the background’, well, perhaps, you should take your own advice and understand Zechariah 2 in its proper context and background.
    Zechariah 2 is a prophetic vision of Israel's future, in which God talks about a future time when He will inaugurate His Kingdom, and dwell in it. It was written during the exile, while the Jewish Nation was waiting for God's forgiveness. Here's the full chapter and here's the relevant Wikipedia article. Note what it says under themes “The main emphasis is that God is at work and plans to live again with His people in Jerusalem. He will save them from their enemies and cleanse them from sin.”

    As I said before, the early Church was dictated on what to believe and what to say to the public by the power of the day. Can you show me one verse from the Bible which clearly showed that Jesus said he’s God or had said his ‘death’ will redeem the people of their sin ?
    Jesus most certainly said things along those lines, or the Early Church wouldn't have even considered going there. The parable of the tenants springs to mind first; however one liners are not why the Early Church concluded He was God, so there's little point in my discussing them. To revisit my actual argument, they concluded that Jesus was God because He did the things that God had said He would do: redeem His people, inaugurate His Kingdom, bless the world and return to Jerusalem.

    They are not read carefully by many because many do not read to understand – they just read to comment. I believe you are one of them.
    Ouch.
    I think you, and talibilm09 earlier are making very incorrect assumptions about me. I am here to learn, and to share. I will challenge where I think I see error, and I will explain what I believe because both are necessary for learning. Don't confuse either for crude evangelism or argument motivated by arrogance. I am listening.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    Ouch.
    I think you, and talibilm09 earlier are making very incorrect assumptions about me. I am here to learn, and to share. I will challenge where I think I see error, and I will explain what I believe because both are necessary for learning. Don't confuse either for crude evangelism or argument motivated by arrogance. I am listening.
    My apology if I am making incorrect assumptions about you but its what you said that makes me make ‘incorrect’ assumptions about you.

    Anyway, glad to know that you are listening which mean, hopefully, you are listening with an open mind to logic and rational.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    That's not the case- it is uncontroversial history that the Early Church (EC) was persecuted by all types of authorities because of their beliefs about Jesus. The Romans persecuted the EC because to claim Jesus was the one true God was to deny that the emperor was. The Greeks persecuted the EC because they were preaching that the city gods should be abandoned in favour of Jesus. The Jews violently objected to Jesus claim to be the Messiah and to be the divine replacement to God's house- the Temple. So all the pressure was against belief in Jesus as God.
    You got that almost right but, not quite. The Romans persecuted the EC, NOT because of the EC’s “claim of Jesus was the one true God was to deny that the emperor was”, BUT the persecution of the early Christians by the Romans was because of the EC refusal to worship the pagan gods or take part in sacrifices, which was expected of those living in the Roman Empire era.

    The early Romans are pagan-worshipers. They worshiped the sun-god, Mithra and had many rituals and sacrifices which they expect the EC/early Christians to adopt and when they refused, they are persecuted. This, came to an end when Emperor Constantine came into power and legalized Christianity and by the late 4th Century, Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire, BUT NOT without their pagan belief deeply incorporated into this new official religion, ‘Christianity’.

    Thus, we can find profound similarities between Mithraism and Christianity such as –

    1) Mithra was born on December 25 as told in the “Great Religions of the World”, page 330; “…it was the winter solstice celebrated by ancients as the birthday of Mithraism’s sun god”. So, was Jesus of the Christians.

    2) According to Mithraism, before Mithra died on a cross, he celebrated a “Last Supper with his twelve disciples, who represented the twelve signs of the zodiac.

    3) After the death of Mithra, his body was laid to rest in a rock tomb.

    4) Mithra had a celibate priesthood meaning he never got married.

    5) Mithra ascended into heaven during the spring (Passover) equinox (the time when the sun crosses the equator making night and day of equal length) and so on.

    In other words, by the power of the day, which is the Roman Empire, the EC was dictated on what to believe, what was to be in their holy books and what should be communicated to the public.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    A=>B does not mean A=B. I'm not sure all this is getting us anywhere useful.
    Well, in that case, can we agree that Jesus is NOT God just because the Christians believe that Jesus ‘was doing jobs’ that only God can/will do, therefore Jesus is God ? As you said “A=>B does not mean A=B”.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    I have quoted a number of OT references in which the writers clearly expressed their views that God had abandoned them, but would return. Is the problem that you're not sure what my references were to? (Which certainly can be solved if so.)
    As you said – “…in which the writers clearly expressed their views….” – in other words, it’s their views, which, not necessarily mean, the correct views. Of course, you are free to give your references and explainations and why not, if this so can certainly solve this ‘grey area’.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    Zechariah 2 is a prophetic vision of Israel's future, in which God talks about a future time when He will inaugurate His Kingdom, and dwell in it. It was written during the exile, while the Jewish Nation was waiting for God's forgiveness. Here's the full chapter and here's the relevant Wikipedia article. Note what it says under themes “The main emphasis is that God is at work and plans to live again with His people in Jerusalem. He will save them from their enemies and cleanse them from sin.”
    Yes, it was a vision which the prophet saw. It was also a vision in which, an angel was speaking, NOT God.

    One also have to be aware that the ancient Hebrew did not have punctuation marks and so, any translation of the Hebrew texts can be made to be understood, by the placement of the punctuation marks, accordingly to the preconceived doctrine belief of the translators/scribes/writers OR its readers. So, if your doctrine belief is ‘Jesus is God’, then your understanding of Zechariah 2 is that God will send Himself (??!) in the form of Jesus and live among the people, which will be a gross misunderstanding of the Nature of God and the Scripture. In Zechariah 2, the angel was speaking and referring himself and quoting God while he speaks.

    The key to understand Zechariah 2 is to understand who was speaking and not be blinded by preconceived doctrine so as to read into the verses something that is not there. As an example, take the American Standard Version (ASV) Bible of Isaiah 8:1-3 – “(1) And Jehovah said unto me, Take thee a great tablet, and write upon it with the pen of a man, For Maher-shalal-hash-baz; (2) and I will take unto me faithful witnesses to record, Uriah the priest, and Zechariah the son of Jeberechiah. (3) And I went unto the prophetess; and she conceived, and bare a son”. One could read verse 3 as a flowing continuation of the quotation of Jehovah's words in verse 1, thus making it appear that Jehovah is the one who went to the prophetess, but common sense tells us that Isaiah stopped quoting Jehovah and began referring to himself.

    Of course, like your preconceived belief that Jesus is God which lead to your misunderstanding of Zechariah 2, similarly, if one were convinced that Isaiah is also God Himself, then, one could read this (ASV Isaiah 8:3) as saying that God went to the prophetess and had sexual relationship with her. Common sense tells us this is NOT so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    Jesus most certainly said things along those lines, or the Early Church wouldn't have even considered going there. The parable of the tenants springs to mind first; however one liners are not why the Early Church concluded He was God, so there's little point in my discussing them. To revisit my actual argument, they concluded that Jesus was God because He did the things that God had said He would do: redeem His people, inaugurate His Kingdom, bless the world and return to Jerusalem.
    It would be to the benefits of both of us and the other readers here if you can also quote those verses from the Bible which clearly showed that Jesus said he’s God or had said his ‘death’ will redeem the people of their sin OR as you said “along those lines”.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    My apology if I am making incorrect assumptions about you but its what you said that makes me make ‘incorrect’ assumptions about you.
    I thought from your first post that you were an atheist, so I am guilty of poor assumptions.

    You got that almost right but, not quite. The Romans persecuted the EC, NOT because of the EC’s “claim of Jesus was the one true God was to deny that the emperor was”, BUT the persecution of the early Christians by the Romans was because of the EC refusal to worship the pagan gods or take part in sacrifices, which was expected of those living in the Roman Empire era.
    It's more complex than that. Jews had dispensation from sacrificing to the emperor, and early Christianity was (rightly) regarded by the Romans as a form of Judaism. The Christians were in a large part persecuted for calling Jesus their king. See the martyrdom of Polycarp for a Christian dying for calling Christ the king against the emperor. Christ means king, it's not a name.

    My point remains untouched- if Christians were calling Jesus part of the One True God, it implies that the emperor isn't a god. Given the growing emperor divinity cult, all of this spells trouble for Christians, the exact opposite of being forced to say Jesus is God!

    The early Romans are pagan-worshipers. They worshiped the sun-god, Mithra and had many rituals and sacrifices which they expect the EC/early Christians to adopt and when they refused, they are persecuted.
    Mithraism was a minor religion that was practised in the first century AD, but it was not the state religion, or anywhere remotely near being the state religion (there wasn't one, apart from the growing 'emperor is divine' cult).

    It had no influence at all on early Christianity, and indeed they were opposed to each other.

    Wikipedia link for Mithraism

    Thus, we can find profound similarities between Mithraism and Christianity such as –

    1) Mithra was born on December 25 as told in the “Great Religions of the World”, page 330; “…it was the winter solstice celebrated by ancients as the birthday of Mithraism’s sun god”. So, was Jesus of the Christians.
    <snip>
    In other words, by the power of the day, which is the Roman Empire, the EC was dictated on what to believe, what was to be in their holy books and what should be communicated to the public
    Jesus wasn't born on 25th December. That day was chosen roughly in the fourth century details The Bible evidence points to a time of the year when things were warm.

    There are compelling other reasons why Mithraism won't do as a source for Christianity, but simply put, there's no chance whatsoever the Romans would have forced a small minority religion onto Christianity, especially since Mithraism was opposed to the emperor cult. In addition, Christians were quite prepared to get persecuted for their beliefs about Jesus, as the New Testament makes clear.

    As you said – “…in which the writers clearly expressed their views….” – in other words, it’s their views, which, not necessarily mean, the correct views.
    To be clear, it was the general belief in Israel at the time that God would return to Israel, because the OT prophets told them from God that's what's going to happen.

    Yes, it was a vision which the prophet saw. It was also a vision in which, an angel was speaking, NOT God.
    <snip>
    Common sense tells us this is NOT so.
    I'm not sure what your point is here. An angel was telling Zechariah that God had said He would return to Israel. Hence the general belief that God said He would return to Israel. He did, as Jesus.

    It would be to the benefits of both of us and the other readers here if you can also quote those verses from the Bible which clearly showed that Jesus said he’s God or had said his ‘death’ will redeem the people of their sin OR as you said “along those lines”.
    I've done one, there are obvious others, and if Jesus hadn't said these things the disciples would not have gone where they did. But it would be better if we discussed the argument I'm actually making, and not one used by other Christians, however valid...

    Which is- Jesus did things that God said He would do. Therefore Jesus is God.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    @Alex S

    Hello.

    I would say that all the proofs I have read from you , as you attempt to suggest Jesus claiming inadvertently to be God (Yahweh) - are all bias interpretations , in hopes to remain consistent with Church History ( Theology ). Obviously us Muslims approach the Bible with our own perspectives which are unshakable. We believe the Quran is a criterion over the Bible , and a source by which we can affirm truth and negate falsehood. But leaving my position and standards out of this - the error from your perspective is rather obvious if one has sound standards.. (No offense)

    Jesus did not come and offer us a new religion. Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. Considering the fact that he was a Jew , and according to your Bible , he acknowledged the Torah and the Prophets , then your default position on his statements should never be to assume the most grandiose interpretation.

    The most important of all teachings is Monotheism in this religion , which means that it is not a matter to ever take lightly. Your default position should always be a negation of possible idolatry unless all conditions and perspectives are taken in to consideration.

    1) If Jesus claimed to be Yahweh , then he would automatically become a false Messiah.

    Jews are strict monotheist. They believe Trinity is idolatry regardless of how you interpret it , and it is unacceptable by God. The OT is full of passages vehemently opposing idolatry and claiming that there is only One God ( And besides Him there is no other i.e Partners )

    2) Your assumption that the Disciples understood those passages allegedly ascribed to Jesus(pbuh) in the grandiose manner that you have , is an absurdity.

    The Disciples were law abiding Jews , which means their default position is strict Monotheism. Had Jesus actually been God Himself ( The Father or a Co-Eternal ) , then that would require him to proclaim himself as Yahweh in a language which is undeniablely affirmative. For example , "I am Yahweh Himself."

    The Ebionites ( Who claimed to be on the teaching of James ) did not believe that Jesus was God. They simply believed that he was the Jewish Messiah , and that is all. A "Son of God" just like other Prophets(pbut) and nobles ( Though I do acknowledge Jesus being a very special Prophet - considering that he is the awaited Messiah )

    Also the Gospels which are present in the Bible have a growing theology as it is apparent from Mark ---> Matthew --> Luke ---> John. So it is not even a trustworthy source for the statements of Jesus , but that is besides the point.

    3) Early Christianity ( The followers ) had differences in their Christology. Indeed some may have believed Jesus was God, or a being which needs to be worshipped alongside the Father ( Something alien to Judaism ). I would say that this deviation must have came from the gentiles and Paul's own grandiose innovations of Jesus.

    Paul was converting the ignorant pagan gentiles and teaching them these alien doctrines which oppose the statements of Jesus. Within the Bible Paul's fellow Christian opponents were the "Party of circumcision /" "Christian sect belonging to the Pharisees" ( Real Jews ) / and even the Disciples in certain places ( Theological reasons ).

    -----

    At the end of the day , I could never accept that Jesus was Yahweh but wasn't walking around and making it absolutely clear at all times. I mean , he never even said that he is Yahweh , all your proofs are either historically inaccurate ( Typically found in John ) , or false grandeur interpretations , which we know are false based on the Old Testaments strong monotheistic stance. Logically speaking , the default must always be a humanly interpretation and not a godly one - had Jesus affirmed himself as God , in clear unequivocal language , then certainly all gospels (Including Mark) would contain all those juicy quotes. It doesn't , therefore Jesus never said anything of that nature.
    Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 29-10-17 at 08:29 PM.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    It's more complex than that. Jews had dispensation from sacrificing to the emperor, and early Christianity was (rightly) regarded by the Romans as a form of Judaism. The Christians were in a large part persecuted for calling Jesus their king. See the martyrdom of Polycarp for a Christian dying for calling Christ the king against the emperor. Christ means king, it's not a name.
    Well, make up your mind – was Christians persecuted by the Romans for calling Jesus their king OR was it, as you said in your previous post, they were persecuted for claiming ‘Jesus was the one true God (and thus, to do so) was to deny that the emperor was’ ??

    Either way, neither would be the primary reason for the Romans’ persecution of the Christians as the Christians could still consider Jesus as their king or worship him as God secretly in their hearts and there’s nothing much the Romans can do about it as that (belief) would not be so apparent to them. However, when the Christians refused to take part in their rituals and sacrifices to their pagan gods (when everyone living under the Romans’ rule was expected to do so), it became very apparent to the Romans that the Christians are not complying with their traditional religious practice and thus, it became the primary reason for the Romans to persecute the Christians.

    By the way, 'Christ' means 'anointed/messiah' and Jesus Christ mean 'Jesus, the anointed one/the messiah'.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    My point remains untouched- if Christians were calling Jesus part of the One True God, it implies that the emperor isn't a god. Given the growing emperor divinity cult, all of this spells trouble for Christians, the exact opposite of being forced to say Jesus is God!
    Well, fact is - you won’t be able to prove Jesus is part of the one true God from your own Scripture. But go ahead and try, anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    Mithraism was a minor religion that was practised in the first century AD, but it was not the state religion, or anywhere remotely near being the state religion (there wasn't one, apart from the growing 'emperor is divine' cult).

    It had no influence at all on early Christianity, and indeed they were opposed to each other.
    Wikipedia link for Mithraism
    I am not saying the early Christians were influenced by Mithraism, in fact, they were persecuted because they are NOT influenced by it. I am saying when the Romans made Christianity their official religion, the influence of their pagan beliefs was also incorporated into their new official religion – Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    Jesus wasn't born on 25th December. That day was chosen roughly in the fourth century details The Bible evidence points to a time of the year when things were warm.
    There are compelling other reasons why Mithraism won't do as a source for Christianity, but simply put, there's no chance whatsoever the Romans would have forced a small minority religion onto Christianity, especially since Mithraism was opposed to the emperor cult. In addition, Christians were quite prepared to get persecuted for their beliefs about Jesus, as the New Testament makes clear.
    True, there’s no Biblical accounts of Jesus born on December 25 BUT that don’t seem to stop the Christians from celebrating Jesus’ ‘birthday’ on December 25 every year, does it ??

    And it’s not about “the Romans have forced a ‘small minority’ religion onto Christianity”, BUT rather it’s about a compromised solution, to a dispute between 2 schools of thought, which was sealed at the First Council of Nicea in 325 AD. It was the Council of Nicea that laid the cornerstone for the orthodox Christian’s understanding of Jesus Christ today – that he’s both human and God. In other words, THAT foundation belief of ‘Jesus is both human and God’, is a man-made foundation, formulated by the Council of Nicea, NOT decreed by God - a foundation that has stood ever since in Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    To be clear, it was the general belief in Israel at the time that God would return to Israel, because the OT prophets told them from God that's what's going to happen.
    I'm not sure what your point is here. An angel was telling Zechariah that God had said He would return to Israel. Hence the general belief that God said He would return to Israel. He did, as Jesus.
    A general belief, like the general view, does not mean it’s the correct belief. At one time, it was a general belief that the earth is flat – well, we know today, that general belief was wrong.

    Perhaps, you understood the phrase ‘God will return’ to mean that God will physically return - is that a correct observation ?? And when did Jesus too say he will return to Israel ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    I've done one, there are obvious others, and if Jesus hadn't said these things the disciples would not have gone where they did. But it would be better if we discussed the argument I'm actually making, and not one used by other Christians, however valid... Which is- Jesus did things that God said He would do. Therefore Jesus is God.
    OK, let’s discuss “the argument you are actually making (and not the one used by other Christians)… Which is- Jesus did things that God said He would do. Therefore Jesus is God”, but, you need to quote verse(s) from your Scripture that clearly support your belief that Jesus is God. You said you have done one and I am not sure which one. If you are referring to Zechariah 2, how’s that proved Jesus is God ??
    Last edited by JerryMyers; 30-10-17 at 08:01 AM.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

    1) If Jesus claimed to be Yahweh , then he would automatically become a false Messiah.
    .
    The primary contentions of the Jews today against the Biblical Jesus / Christianity's portrayal of Jesus's Messiah are ..

    1) If Jesus claimed to be God , who is known from the Torah to be YHWH - the One True God , typically referred to as The Father / Lord - Or if he claimed to be a Co-Eternal partner of YHWH , then this would necessitate a rejection of him , due to this being clear idolatry. The Trinity is universally rejected by all Jews for having no Basis in their Hebrew Bible , along with it being idolatry. The one who believes in a 'man-god' or the Trinity will not be admitted to Paradise in the hereafter - and such people have contradicted the Noah-chide laws , which God took from the gentiles.

    Muslims escape this unnecessary objection of the Jews with our portrayal of Jesus which conforms to what early accounts of Jesus are reporting of Jesus - along with what early Jewish-Christians believed about his Christology. Simply the Jewish Messiah and is not YHWH , the Eternal God of the Heavens and the Earth.

    2) The Messiah is expected to free the Jewish people from their rulers and to establish a Jewish state in conformity to King David(as). Jesus 'died' and did not complete his mission , therefore he is a false Messiah.

    Christians attempt to suggest that this is a misunderstanding of scripture , and rather , the Bible claims that the Messiah must suffer. This is in fact an interpolation which fits in with Pauline doctrine ..

    "I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" [Galatians 2:21]

    And then further argue that this will take place in his second coming .. the Biblical Jesus is reported to have prophesies that he would return within his followers lifetimes.

    ""Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom." [Matthew 16:28]

    The Jews reject him also on this basis ..

    -He said he was coming , but he didn't - and we know that he was being literal because Paul himself was deceived by this statement as he writes in his own works.
    - Any false claimant to the Messiah can say "I will fulfill all prophecies when I come back." , and his claim to return is not a proof for his messiah , and neither is him suffering. Suffering may happen to any claimant to the Messiah who was rejected by the Jews.

    Muslims can escape this by claiming that Jesus did not die , so this falsifying standard is erroneous to begin with. Allah(swt) cursed the Jews who rejected Jesus even after all the miracles and wonders he performed before them , by making it appear that he died and thus punishing them with false assumptions - for a penalty of rejecting God and his covenants. Now they await the False Messiah ( Dajjal ).

    -We know Jesus was rejected by his people , even through biblical sources , as John states.

    -He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. [John 1:11]

    And Paul claims that at the time of Ascension ..

    -In those days, Peter stood up among the brothers - a group numbering a hundred and twenty... (Acts of the Apostles 1:15)

    ------------

    The primary claims of Jews(Modern) against Jesus being the Messiah are not even true reasons to reject him. This problem is only presented by Christianity , and indeed , Islam which is the reality , provides the exact solution to that problem.
    Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 30-10-17 at 10:29 PM.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    Well, make up your mind – was Christians persecuted by the Romans for calling Jesus their king OR was it, as you said in your previous post, they were persecuted for claiming ‘Jesus was the one true God (and thus, to do so) was to deny that the emperor was’ ??
    It's a bit of both (politics and religion were viewed as inter-connected), and historical record is a bit light on exactly what the problem was that got Christians persecuted. The whole revolutionary Jewish 'No king but God' thing is also in there.
    My point is that the Christians had no Roman based incentive at all to declare Jesus as God, and the Romans had an incentive to discourage them from calling Jesus God (the emperor divinity cult), rather than forcing them to do it.

    I am not saying the early Christians were influenced by Mithraism, in fact, they were persecuted because they are NOT influenced by it. I am saying when the Romans made Christianity their official religion, the influence of their pagan beliefs was also incorporated into their new official religion – Christianity.
    But the Christians were calling Jesus God way back in the first Century (Paul writing in the 50s is clear that the Early Church considers Jesus to be God), so the decision was made a very long time before Rome went Christian.

    And it’s not about “the Romans have forced a ‘small minority’ religion onto Christianity”, BUT rather it’s about a compromised solution, to a dispute between 2 schools of thought, which was sealed at the First Council of Nicea in 325 AD. It was the Council of Nicea that laid the cornerstone for the orthodox Christian’s understanding of Jesus Christ today – that he’s both human and God. In other words, THAT foundation belief of ‘Jesus is both human and God’, is a man-made foundation, formulated by the Council of Nicea, NOT decreed by God - a foundation that has stood ever since in Christianity.
    Again, Nicea was long after the decision was made. It was a rather unhelpful conference to try to explain how Jesus as God operated. That He was God had been decided centuries earlier.

    Perhaps, you understood the phrase ‘God will return’ to mean that God will physically return - is that a correct observation ?? And when did Jesus too say he will return to Israel ??
    What God's return to Israel would look like was one of the hot topics in first century Israel. Jesus provided the answer.

    OK, let’s discuss “the argument you are actually making (and not the one used by other Christians)… Which is- Jesus did things that God said He would do. Therefore Jesus is God”, but, you need to quote verse(s) from your Scripture that clearly support your belief that Jesus is God. You said you have done one and I am not sure which one. If you are referring to Zechariah 2, how’s that proved Jesus is God ??[
    Proving that Jesus is God by quoting small verses from the Bible is the usual online Christian method, but it's not mine.
    Zechariah 2 is one of a number of passages I listed earlier, with many others around, in which God, in the Old Testament, makes certain promises about what He'll do in the future. He said He'll save mankind, return to Israel, invite the world to join in His blessing, and establish His Kingdom. The Early Church realised that Jesus had done these things, things God said (in the OT) he would do, and so Jesus clearly had to be an active part of God.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    It's a bit of both (politics and religion were viewed as inter-connected), and historical record is a bit light on exactly what the problem was that got Christians persecuted. The whole revolutionary Jewish 'No king but God' thing is also in there.
    My point is that the Christians had no Roman based incentive at all to declare Jesus as God, and the Romans had an incentive to discourage them from calling Jesus God (the emperor divinity cult), rather than forcing them to do it.
    Exactly my point – those who had power over politics also had great influence over religion. In other words, the Romans who were the power of the day, would eventually had the final say on what Christianity should be like.

    The revolutionary Jewish ‘No king but God’ simply means the Jews of the day only believe in the divinity of a God who’s up in the heavens, NOT in the divinity of a man living on earth. Why do you think they falsely charged Jesus with blasphemy (of calling himself as a God, which Jesus, of course, denied) if they truly believe Jesus is God or the Son of God ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    But the Christians were calling Jesus God way back in the first Century (Paul writing in the 50s is clear that the Early Church considers Jesus to be God), so the decision was made a very long time before Rome went Christian.
    What proofs have you got that the Christians were calling Jesus a God way back in the first Century ? There’s not a single verse in the Bible that said Jesus himself said he’s a God and neither is there a single verse in the Bible that stated God Himself said His servant, Jesus, is a God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    Again, Nicea was long after the decision was made. It was a rather unhelpful conference to try to explain how Jesus as God operated. That He was God had been decided centuries earlier.
    Well, as I said above, PROVE IT.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    What God's return to Israel would look like was one of the hot topics in first century Israel. Jesus provided the answer.
    How did Jesus provide the answer ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    Proving that Jesus is God by quoting small verses from the Bible is the usual online Christian method, but it's not mine.
    Zechariah 2 is one of a number of passages I listed earlier, with many others around, in which God, in the Old Testament, makes certain promises about what He'll do in the future.
    Well, isn’t OT part of the Bible ?? Are you NOT contradicting yourself when you said quoting ‘small’ verses from the Bible to ‘prove’ Jesus is God is NOT your method ??

    Again, how did Zechariah 2, or for that matter, any other OT verses, proved Jesus is God ?? You need to explain how the verse(s) of the OT translate to Jesus being a God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    He said He'll save mankind, return to Israel, invite the world to join in His blessing, and establish His Kingdom. The Early Church realised that Jesus had done these things, things God said (in the OT) he would do, and so Jesus clearly had to be an active part of God.
    How is it that ‘Jesus had done these things’ means Jesus is God ?? If that’s the case, then, ALL prophets are Gods too !! Is it not ALL prophets’ mission was to save mankind, invite mankind to be part of God’s blessing and establish ‘the kingdom of God’ ?

    I am not sure what you mean by ‘an active part of God’. If you mean being ‘an active part of God’ means in the sense that Jesus does nothing but ONLY to the will of God, not his own or anyone else, then, I agreed. However, if you mean being ‘an active part of God’ means Jesus is one part of God, like in trinity, then, I will say you do not even understand your own Scripture. However, you are free to prove me wrong - I'm listening.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    @Alex S

    I am just curious , how do you explain the Ebionite movement? According to Trinitarian Christian scholars they existed within the first century, they believed that Jesus was a human Messiah, upheld the law, opposed Paul and they trace their teachings back to James.

    The unfortunate problem with investigating early Christianity is the lack of sources. The history of the disciples and the early community is primarily based on the writings of Paul. The history which is presented to us has a level of bias , considering that Paul himself is a theologian , and how adamant he was in delivering his 'gospel' of grace and salvation - only adds further suspicion to his writings.

    Allow me to ask you a few questions.

    1) Those hymns and early creeds found in Paul's gospel - were the ebionites unaware of them? I've hear Christians claim that these teachings must have dated back very early - which is taken to be a proof that Jesus was considered 'god' or worshipped by early Christians. So my question is, were the ebionites aware of such creeds, and if so, why did they oppose the "Church's" theology?

    2) If Jesus claimed to be Yahweh or a Co-Eternal and if the disciples believed that , then wouldn't all converts to the faith be aware of such a grand claim and belief? Acknowledge that these are Jewish Christians who worshipped with other law abiding Jews(the disciples). Wouldn't they be more representative of Orthodox belief, rather than Paul and his gentile following?
    Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 05-11-17 at 06:41 PM.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    AmantuBillahi- there is a lot to be said about your posts, but I tend to engage with one conversation partner at a time. I'm sure if you keep an eye on things, at some point I will be able to explain why the whole Ebionite thing doesn't really work. Just not at this precise time.



    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    What proofs have you got that the Christians were calling Jesus a God way back in the first Century ?
    The New Testament gives us a clear insight into the hot topics of the day. We know that saying the Torah is optional was immensely controversial for Paul, and there were hard battles over it. We know that eating meat sacrificed to idols, admitting Gentiles to a status previously reserved for Jews, abandoning claims on Israel, were immensely controversial. These battles are clear in the NT.

    Now when Paul writes that At the name of Jesus, every knee will bow (v11) he's saying that Jesus is God as in Isaiah 45:23 . Then John talks about the Logos being with God, and being God, the same one who created the universe in Genesis 1. And so on. And so on.

    We know that the Early Church believed Jesus was God, because they left a lot of writings to that effect (and Roman writings back this up e.g. Pliny).

    And there's no controversy, anywhere, about this in the first century. Paul and the others are writing these things as agreed facts, not as points to be debated as for the other hot topics. It was a settled discussion long before the end of the first century, and long, long before the Romans got involved, long, long before Nicea, and the Romans had no influence whatsoever on the process.

    There’s not a single verse in the Bible that said Jesus himself said he’s a God and neither is there a single verse in the Bible that stated God Himself said His servant, Jesus, is a God.
    I've given you enough to contradict that already, and to repeat, it's completely irrelevant to the argument I'm making, which works 100% even if Jesus/the NT hadn't said anything.

    How did Jesus provide the answer ??
    By being God returning to Israel.

    Again, how did Zechariah 2, or for that matter, any other OT verses, proved Jesus is God ??
    Zechariah said that God would return to Israel and win a great victory. Jesus did just that. That's how the Early Church knew he was the active part of God.

    If that’s the case, then, ALL prophets are Gods too !! Is it not ALL prophets’ mission was to save mankind, invite mankind to be part of God’s blessing and establish ‘the kingdom of God’ ?
    No, the prophets had one job- prophecy. God had said He would sort out sin and death, free humanity and establish his Kingdom. That was not a job for mere prophets. It was a job for God alone.

    That's how the Early Church knew Jesus was God, and not just a prophet.

  30. #1509
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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    The New Testament gives us a clear insight into the hot topics of the day. We know that saying the Torah is optional was immensely controversial for Paul, and there were hard battles over it. We know that eating meat sacrificed to idols, admitting Gentiles to a status previously reserved for Jews, abandoning claims on Israel, were immensely controversial. These battles are clear in the NT.
    You mean they are clear by the words of Paul, not Jesus. I can understand that as Christians today follow Paul, not Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    Now when Paul writes that At the name of Jesus, every knee will bow (v11) he's saying that Jesus is God as in Isaiah 45:23 .
    Obviously Paul was NOT referring Jesus as God when he said “Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God, the Father” (Philippians 2:11) AFTER the verse you quoted “At the name of Jesus, every knee will bow”. The statement “to the glory of God, the Father” tells us Jesus’ existence and works are only to the glory of God, NOT to the glory of his own. The reference of ‘Jesus is Lord’ is the same reference Paul made when he said “yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ” – (1 Corr. 8:6). Paul did not say there’s one God and Lord, Jesus Christ, which means even Paul, as controversial as he was, understood Jesus as someone very much different to God. In fact, I can’t find a single verse (which cannot be disputed) in the whole Bible, where Paul called Jesus God. Maybe you can help me here.

    The term ‘Lord’ should NOT be generalized to mean God, as in the Jewish society, rabbis are also called ‘Lord’ and Jesus is THE rabbi to his followers, and thus, he’s called ‘Lord’, NOT as a God, BUT as a respected rabbi or teacher..

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    Then John talks about the Logos being with God, and being God, the same one who created the universe in Genesis 1. And so on. And so on.
    The Greek word ‘Logos’ or “Word” as in John 1:1, is NOT exclusively a reference to Jesus. It’s a reference to God’s creative self-expression—His reason, purposes and plans, especially as they are brought into action. Thus John 1:1 is all about God’s creation. All creations are initiated by God’s Word. Just as Jesus is God’s Word, so is Light is God’s Word (Let there BE Light and there was Light”) – there’s no distinction. Moreover, the first reference of ‘God’ (and the Word was with God) in Greek was ‘ho theos’ which mean ‘The God’, a reference to the one and only God while the second reference of God (the Word was God) in Greek, was just ‘theos’ (without the ‘ho’) which indicate godly or divine creation (of God).


    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    We know that the Early Church believed Jesus was God, because they left a lot of writings to that effect (and Roman writings back this up e.g. Pliny).
    And there's no controversy, anywhere, about this in the first century. Paul and the others are writing these things as agreed facts, not as points to be debated as for the other hot topics. It was a settled discussion long before the end of the first century, and long, long before the Romans got involved, long, long before Nicea, and the Romans had no influence whatsoever on the process.
    Writings of which was obviously written to lead to the belief that Jesus is both God and human at the same time. When the Council of Nicea 325AD declared Jesus is both divine and human, the EC ‘was persuaded’ by the power of the day to ‘review’ the Scripture/manuscripts and find verses that can used to imply towards this new ‘revelation’ of Jesus being both God and human. This they did, and verses like John 3:16, John 1:1 are among those verses used to imply Jesus is God, and for that reason too, you will NEVER find a single verse in the whole Bible where Jesus himself said he’s God, or God Himself said His servant and prophet, Jesus, is God or equal to God – ONLY implications by scholars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    I've given you enough to contradict that already, and to repeat, it's completely irrelevant to the argument I'm making, which works 100% even if Jesus/the NT hadn't said anything.
    Actually, it really does not work 100% at all IF Jesus, whom the Christians claimed to follow, DID NOT say it. This is NOT a question of Jesus being humble but a question of what Jesus himself believed. If God Himself had said on numerous occasions that He’s God, you will expect Jesus too to say the same IF he believes he’s God too, BUT he never said it, which only proved Jesus himself never saw himself as a God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    By being God returning to Israel.
    Zechariah said that God would return to Israel and win a great victory. Jesus did just that. That's how the Early Church knew he was the active part of God.

    When we said ‘God will return’, it means man have left God in the sense that they no longer follow the Commandments of God as taught by their prophet, and when man left God, His Spirit, that is, the Spirit of God which is always with those who were pious and righteous, is also said to have left them. Thus, the angel in Zechariah 2 was telling the prophet, to guide his people back to God and when they are back to God by obeying His Commandments and the teaching of their prophet, God, that is, His Spirit aka the Spirit of God, will return or be with them once again. Its NOT that God Himself will physically return to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    No, the prophets had one job- prophecy. That was not a job for mere prophets. It was a job for God alone.
    Prophets had only one job – prophecy ? Which Christian group do you belong to ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    God had said He would sort out sin and death, free humanity and establish his Kingdom.
    Yes, and He does that through ALL His prophets, not just through Jesus. Do you even understand what is meant by “sort out sin and death, free humanity and establish his Kingdom” ??

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    That's how the Early Church knew Jesus was God, and not just a prophet.
    Well, fact is - Jesus IS just a prophet and a servant of God. Even Jesus himself believe so, and so are those close to him, even to the time after Jesus was said to have been “resurrected” and ascended.
    Last edited by JerryMyers; 08-11-17 at 04:03 PM.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by JerryMyers View Post
    You mean they are clear by the words of Paul, not Jesus. I can understand that as Christians today follow Paul, not Jesus.
    I don't understand- are you saying that Christians follow Paul in saying that Jesus is God, or that Paul never said it?

    Obviously Paul was NOT referring Jesus as God when he said “Jesus is Lord, to the glory of God, the Father” <snip>NOT to the glory of his own.

    The term ‘Lord’ should NOT be generalized to mean God, as in the Jewish society, rabbis are also called ‘Lord’ and Jesus is THE rabbi to his followers, and thus, he’s called ‘Lord’, NOT as a God, BUT as a respected rabbi or teacher..
    In the context of Isaiah 45, 'Lord' means 'God', without any doubt. Please check any standard Jewish reference for that. Hence Paul is identifying Jesus as God.

    yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ” – (1 Cor. 8:6)
    Sticking Jesus name in the middle of the Shema is absolute proof that the early Christians regarded Jesus as God!
    It was the ultimate statement about God's oneness, yet Jesus is included there.

    The Greek word ‘Logos’ or “Word” as in John 1:1, is NOT exclusively a reference to Jesus.<snip>... divine creation (of God).
    I'm afraid you've missed the point. John is identifying Jesus as the creative, active part of God, as in Genesis. “ And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [l]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth”.

    Writings of which <snip>.ONLY implications by scholars.
    To repeat, Nicea was a debate about what Jesus as God meant, not whether He was God or not. The decision was made before then.

    When we said ‘God will return’, <snip>will physically return to them.
    It means both, but that doesn't matter because it works in both senses. God promised to return to Israel, and did in the person of Jesus.

    Do you even understand what is meant by “sort out sin and death, free humanity and establish his Kingdom” ??
    Yes- because that's what Jesus did. He showed us what all that means.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    I don't understand- are you saying that Christians follow Paul in saying that Jesus is God, or that Paul never said it?
    When I said “I can understand that as Christians today follow Paul, not Jesus.”, I was responding to what you said in Post #1508 in which you said “We know that saying the Torah is optional was immensely controversial for Paul, and there were hard battles over it. We know that eating meat sacrificed to idols, admitting Gentiles to a status previously reserved for Jews, abandoning claims on Israel, were immensely controversial. These battles are clear in the NT.”

    In other words, they are controversial for Paul because they are against the teaching of Jesus. As the Christians today agreed to what Paul said about these things, in that sense, they follow Paul, not Jesus.

    As whether the Christians today follow Paul in saying Jesus is God, I do not know. I know Christians follow Paul, not Jesus, when Paul (not Jesus) said all Christians MUST believe Jesus died and rose again else the Christians’ faith will in vain, BUT, I have yet to find a verse in the whole Bible where Paul said Jesus is God.

    I don’t think Paul himself believed Jesus is God BUT he did believe Jesus died for man’s sin and rose again. So, if Paul did not believe Jesus is God, then the Christians’ belief of Jesus is God came from the outcome of the First Council of Nicea 325 AD where Jesus was made to be both God and human.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    In the context of Isaiah 45, 'Lord' means 'God', without any doubt. Please check any standard Jewish reference for that. Hence Paul is identifying Jesus as God.
    Sure, because Isaiah 45 was referring to God (NOT Jesus) as the one who was talking about his anointed one, Cyrus.

    What makes you believe Isaiah was referring to Jesus when he said “This is what the LORD says to his anointed, to Cyrus…” in Isaiah 45:1 ?? When did Jesus ever refer Cyrus, the King of Persia, as his anointed one ??


    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    Sticking Jesus name in the middle of the Shema is absolute proof that the early Christians regarded Jesus as God!
    It was the ultimate statement about God's oneness, yet Jesus is included there.
    “there is one God, the Father, ………… AND one Lord, Jesus Christ” means there are two very different personalities here. As I said, Paul did not say “There’s one God AND Lord, Jesus Christ”, now, did he ??

    Similarly, in the Muslim’s Shahada (or the Shema, if you like), “There’s no god worthy to be worshiped but Allah, AND Muhammad, is (only) His Messenger”. Now, does that mean Muhammad should be worshiped by the Muslims too because of Muhammad name ‘sticking in the middle’ of the Shahada ?? Of course not ! Only those who are misguided will believe a human can be God or equal to his Creator.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    I'm afraid you've missed the point. John is identifying Jesus as the creative, active part of God, as in Genesis. “ And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of [l]the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth”.
    I’m afraid it’s you who have been misled away from the truth. Whatever God Willed it to be, it become. The Word became flesh is no different in meaning as in “Let there BE Light and there was Light”, in which case, the Word became Light.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    To repeat, Nicea was a debate about what Jesus as God meant, not whether He was God or not. The decision was made before then.
    Of course its about whether Jesus was God or not !! If everyone before Nicea believed Jesus is God, then there’s really nothing to debate. Even today, not all Christians believe Jesus is God, and so the debate continues even among the Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    It means both, but that doesn't matter because it works in both senses. God promised to return to Israel, and did in the person of Jesus.
    But it does matter because Jesus is not God. He’s just like any other prophets, whom, because of their righteousness and piety, they are always accompanied by the Spirit of God in them. Having the Spirit of God in them does not mean they are all God or equal to God too.

    God also said He will bring the Israelites out of Egypt and He did that thru the person of Moses. Does that mean Moses is also God ???

    Quote Originally Posted by Alex S View Post
    Yes- because that's what Jesus did. He showed us what all that means.
    Yes what ?? What Jesus did is what all prophets did in the context of “sort out sin and death, free humanity and establish his Kingdom”.

    You may have a different understanding, so, from your own understanding, what does “sort out sin and death, free humanity and establish his Kingdom” mean ??

 

 

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