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    Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Peace of greetings for those who strive to be guided,

    Why is Jesus not the Son of God ?

    The Best Logic Reply is the Video. Kindly give a chance to your Consciences , do not suppress it . Since its your Duty to search God like you search even in the simplest things needed for your Life. But God is the TOP MOST IMPORTANT need of Life.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=sREemKFBJX8

    May The All Mighty, Lord guide us all, Ameen.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Causative View Post
    candyapple

    We use term "father" because God made us. God does not count the term "father" as blasphemy. You need to understand this. Do not judge what is right and what is wrong by your understanding. God does not view things as you Muslims do.
    But we don't judge by our understanding. God says this Himself in the Qur'an:

    34. 'That is Jesus, the son of Mary - the word of truth about which they are in dispute. It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.' - Holy Qur'an, Chapter 19, Verse(s) 34-35

    Saying that Adam (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh) were called the sons of God and not anyone else, because they came directly from Him (without involvement of parents as in case of Adam and without involvement of father as in case of Jesus) is incorrect. Just because they were created in the absence of a parent(s), does not mean that we attribute God to be the parent. Rather it shows they were created miraculously by the Power of God. He says 'Be' and it is. This was to close the cycle and show the Power of the Creator, to show that God could create through no involvement of male/female (Adam), that he could create through no involvement of female (Eve), that He could create through male/female (us people, as in we are created through our parents), and He could create through no involvement of man (Jesus), and this is to show the Power of the Creator. (Menk) He only has to say 'Be' and it is.

    Thus, He is All-Powerful and independent from His Creation and to ascribe the word 'father' to Him is blasphemous.

    Furthermore, there seems to be a difference of opinion amongst Christians themselves on this matter. Causative, you interpret the 'son of God' as this, yet older orthodox Christians interpret 'son of God' more as servant of God, and later Christians by way of Paul interpret it literally to mean that God begotten a son and died 'in the flesh'. So you cannot even agree amongst yourselves on this matter. These differences in opinion for the most fundamental aspect of religion (and we are not talking technicalities), but the most fundamental aspect of God is enough to prove that Christianity has been altered and revised.

    I ask that all of your fellow Christians come together and agree upon the concept of God before forwarding your arguments to us.

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    Odan talibilm09's Avatar
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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous10 View Post
    But we don't judge by our understanding. God says this Himself in the Qur'an:

    34. 'That is Jesus, the son of Mary - the word of truth about which they are in dispute. It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.' - Holy Qur'an, Chapter 19, Verse(s) 34-35

    Saying that Adam (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh) were called the sons of God and not anyone else, because they came directly from Him (without involvement of parents as in case of Adam and without involvement of father as in case of Jesus) is incorrect. Just because they were created in the absence of a parent(s), does not mean that we attribute God to be the parent. Rather it shows they were created miraculously by the Power of God. He says 'Be' and it is. This was to close the cycle and show the Power of the Creator, to show that God could create through no involvement of male/female (Adam), that he could create through no involvement of female (Eve), that He could create through male/female (us people, as in we are created through our parents), and He could create through no involvement of man (Jesus), and this is to show the Power of the Creator. (Menk) He only has to say 'Be' and it is.

    Thus, He is All-Powerful and independent from His Creation and to ascribe the word 'father' to Him is blasphemous.

    Furthermore, there seems to be a difference of opinion amongst Christians themselves on this matter. Causative, you interpret the 'son of God' as this, yet older orthodox Christians interpret 'son of God' more as servant of God, and later Christians by way of Paul interpret it literally to mean that God begotten a son and died 'in the flesh'. So you cannot even agree amongst yourselves on this matter. These differences in opinion for the most fundamental aspect of religion (and we are not talking technicalities), but the most fundamental aspect of God is enough to prove that Christianity has been altered and revised.

    I ask that all of your fellow Christians come together and agree upon the concept of God before forwarding your arguments to us.
    Its like constructing and Interior decorating a building when the foundation is still in on Mud. Its like learning grammar in English when you are not still familiar even with the basic alphabets and words. So the Noble Quran rightly says

    3:66 ''Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have knowledge. Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have no knowledge ? It is Allah Who knows, and you know not.

  4. #83
    ♡♡ENFP♡♡ candyapple's Avatar
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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Causative View Post
    candyapple

    We use term "father" because God made us. God does not count the term "father" as blasphemy. You need to understand this. Do not judge what is right and what is wrong by your understanding. God does not view things as you Muslims do.
    You wish.

    You feel the creator has to be your father
    and then you claim the creator begot jesus
    some of you cleaim the creator begot adam and others claim the creator begot paul the liar too.

    you see where its heading?

    The creator us NOT in need of begetting.

    do you not see that?

    The creator is NOT the created. Never was never will be.

    it does not befit the majesty of the creator to beget.

    Is the status of the king like that of a common person?

    No.

    how about for the status of the creator?

    Allah is the creator. We have have evidence from the quran regarding Allah

    Say HE is Allah, One and Only
    HE does not beget
    Neither is HE begotten
    And there is NONE unto like HIM.

    you should pay attention to those verses.

    if the word Allah is difficult for you replace it with "god"
    "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."

    "Nothing protects the rights of the minority like the tyranny of the majority"

  5. #84
    Odan Causative's Avatar
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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous10 View Post
    But we don't judge by our understanding. God says this Himself in the Qur'an:

    34. 'That is Jesus, the son of Mary - the word of truth about which they are in dispute. It is not [befitting] for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.' - Holy Qur'an, Chapter 19, Verse(s) 34-35

    Saying that Adam and Jesus were called the sons of God.... because they came directly from Him is incorrect.
    Anonymous10

    If it is incorrect why does some Imams don't find it incorrect??? Do you reject Imams? Are you Muslim?
    Do you desire to quench your thirst for the knowledge of God? Then search for and follow God’s guidance, and you can be sure that he will satisfy the desires of your heart. Learn God's word and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.—سَبِّحُوا يَاهَ!‏

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by candyapple View Post
    The creator us NOT in need of begetting.
    candyapple

    In the Holy Scriptures the word "begotten" = Created. There is no different between these words in God;s word when it is talking about the creations of God. Do you understand that?
    Do you desire to quench your thirst for the knowledge of God? Then search for and follow God’s guidance, and you can be sure that he will satisfy the desires of your heart. Learn God's word and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.—سَبِّحُوا يَاهَ!‏

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Causative View Post
    Anonymous10

    If it is incorrect why does some Imams don't find it incorrect??? Do you reject Imams? Are you Muslim?
    Well then I can tell you that those Imams are in a very, very, small minority; almost in exilation. The Qur'an itself, and overwhelming majority of religious scholars will tell you otherwise. God is Alone is Might and does not beget sons.

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    Odan Causative's Avatar
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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous10 View Post
    Well then I can tell you that those Imams are in a very, very, small minority;
    Anonymous

    Yes but they are Imams. Do you want to say that Imams teachings are false? Do they teach their Muslim brothers false teachings?
    Do you desire to quench your thirst for the knowledge of God? Then search for and follow God’s guidance, and you can be sure that he will satisfy the desires of your heart. Learn God's word and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.—سَبِّحُوا يَاهَ!‏

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Causative View Post
    Anonymous

    Yes but they are Imams. Do you want to say that Imams teachings are false? Do they teach their Muslim brothers false teachings?
    I see what you're trying to do. Well then let me ask you this, using your definition of 'begat', if I ask another Christian will I get the same the answer? What's the probability that I will get the same answer? Has to be low right? Since large numbers of people believing that God died 'in the flesh' and will take the word in its literal sense. Why the variation?

    Now you ask a Muslim the same question, and almost unanimously you'll get the same the answer. That God does not have a son, and that Jesus (pbuh) is not the son of God, but was created by God.

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    Question Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous10 View Post
    I see what you're trying to do. Well then let me ask you this,
    Anonymous10

    Before you ask me anything answer my questions first!

    Anonymous

    Yes but they are Imams. Do you want to say that Imams teachings are false? Do they teach their Muslim brothers false teachings?
    ?????
    Do you desire to quench your thirst for the knowledge of God? Then search for and follow God’s guidance, and you can be sure that he will satisfy the desires of your heart. Learn God's word and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.—سَبِّحُوا يَاهَ!‏

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    What you want to do is wrap what these couple Imams you've found have said, over the 99.9% of other Muslims who believe otherwise and brand the whole thing as 'false'.

    Substitute imams for Christian priests and tell me then, if their teachings are false. Are they?

    We have 99% uniformity in our belief of this, which is the most fundamental aspect

    Can you achieve 99% uniformity for this basic tenet? Are are you still in dispute? How can a religion that preaches truth dispute the concept of God and son of God?

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Anonymous10

    I gave you 2 very simple questions and instead to give me an answers you gave me 4 questions.

    Brother, when you see that you are unable to make civilized debate you must quit.
    Do you desire to quench your thirst for the knowledge of God? Then search for and follow God’s guidance, and you can be sure that he will satisfy the desires of your heart. Learn God's word and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.—سَبِّحُوا يَاهَ!‏

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    Odan talibilm09's Avatar
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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Causative View Post
    Anonymous10

    Before you ask me anything answer my questions first!


    ?????
    Quran is the Super Best Imaam, followed by hadith(sunnah) and practices of Sahaba and our four Madhab Imaams. If anything goes against the commandment of Quran it is not obeyed. Particularly in the matter that takes EVEN near to Shirk. Like Allah swt ordered us to avoid going to even near to Zina, fornication. so we have to avoid everything , seeing, even talking (without necessity) with non maghram women. But Shirk is the top most UNFORGIVABLE sin equal to Kufar so just imagine how much we should avoid it since its a unforgivable Sin unlike Zina.

    So Calling son of god even as a figure of speech MUST BE AVOIDED even in the sense of a a very pious person. The statement of the two imams which you quote is less important than what I had quoted above and we do not know in which context they said , to whom ( to new revert Christian for explanation ?) and why they said. Even hadith are decided on context, situation, why, to whom when etc , Islam is not a joke like yours, you do even you did not know Jesus told or not lol.
    I pity for that not joking. So you give your proof first so that we see how exact your claims are. This is how Saamiri or the guy who persuaded the Jews to take a Calf as a God came and advised people of Moses , like Causative is doing right now.

    happy troll ing

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Causative, you and I both know the truth.

    You are asking baseless questions and warping the discussion to suit your gain because that's what you have to rely on to disprove us. You and I know that Muslims believe that Jesus is not the son of God but a creation of God, there near unanimity on this. You have to find a couple imams who represent the .2% to disprove the 99%, and furthermore there is evidence in the Qur'an and hadiths that tell us this.

    Furthermore, there is no consensus amongst your brethren. You want to attack our religion but cannot prove that yours is the truth.

    Others are right, you're a troll.












    [/U][/B][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

    Quote Originally Posted by Causative View Post
    Anonymous10

    I gave you 2 very simple questions and instead to give me an answers you gave me 4 questions.

    Brother, when you see that you are unable to make civilized debate you must quit.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    PRACTISING RELIGION BASED ON TRINITY without knowing the meaning or concept of God

    Its like constructing and Interior decorating a building when the foundation is still in on Mud. Its like learning grammar in English when you are not still familiar even with the basic alphabets and words. So the Noble Quran rightly says

    3:66 ''Verily, you are those who have disputed about that of which you have knowledge. Why do you then dispute concerning that which you have no knowledge ? It is Allah Who knows, and you know not.
    Here is an Analogy,of the WORDS to know who is the '' SPIRIT OF TRUTH '' as in John 16:12-14 and John 15:26-27 by comparing it to the Quran

    Quran 4:171 '' O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.''

    Continue Reading till verse 174 ''O mankind! Verily, there has come to you a convincing proof (Prophet Muhammad SAW) from your Lord, and We sent down to you a manifest light (this Quran)
    .


    Jesus (pbuh) foretold about Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the following verses ( might be the few parts of verses that have not been omitted or distorted)

    John 16:12-14 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.…"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.…


    MEANINGS OF THE ABOVE VERSE OF JOHN 16:12-14 by parts

    Spirit of truth : Means or refers to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) Correction: Does not refer to Arch angel Gabriel or Spirit to the Pentecost as in the post 55 & 56 in http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...e-Me-Now/page2

    but whatever He hears : means what ever he hears as Revelation from Arch angel Gibraeel or Gabriel

    He will disclose to you what is to come.: refers to hadith of All prophesies of victories, Trials, signs of the day of the judgement etc etc

    "He will glorify Me : Clear all the blasphemy about Jesus's(pbh) moral, miraculous birth and the Chastity of Mary (pbh)

    He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.… : Take and CONTINUE THE Prophet hood that was assigned to Jesus(pbuh) THE MESSAGE OF ONE GOD ALLAH to fullfill the forgotten commandments of saying Asalamalikum,(sholaimalaikum OR Shalom ? ) Prohibition of wine,swine, Interest ,usury,




    Now Compare to verse of John 16: 12-14 above IN BLUE with the Quran 53: 3- 4

    ''Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed,''


    and see John 15:26-27 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.


    and you will testify also: means you will believe or You Must Believe Both Jesus & Muhammad as the Slave & Messenger '' Ashahadhu an Laa ilaha il Allah ashahadhu...anna Muhammadan abdhuhu warasooluhu

    So Do You Believe ? before Death overtakes and they will be the worst Losers. Read Quran verse a Prophesy about YOUR reply then: Quran 67 : 7-11

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    Odan Causative's Avatar
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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous10 View Post

    You are asking baseless questions and warping the discussion to suit your gain because that's what you have to rely on to disprove us.
    Anonymous10

    Its easy to say so because to get away of the question you don't have an answers. Shame on you.

    You have to find a couple imams who represent the .2% to disprove the 99%,
    They are very famous Imams in Islam.


    Furthermore, there is no consensus amongst your brethren
    . The Bible is harmonious in itself. If we don't agree to eachother, its not Bible's fault. You listen to Bible,its God's word.

    You want to attack our religion but cannot prove that yours is the truth.
    I only gave you simple questions and you call it attac?
    Shame.
    I don't need to prove to you truth of my religion because you don't want to know what is truth.
    Do you desire to quench your thirst for the knowledge of God? Then search for and follow God’s guidance, and you can be sure that he will satisfy the desires of your heart. Learn God's word and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.—سَبِّحُوا يَاهَ!‏

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    ".......He giveth and spendeth (of His bounty) as He pleaseth. But the revelation that cometh to thee from Allah increaseth in most of them (kuffar) their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy.Amongst them we have placed enmity and hatred till the Day of Judgment. Every time they kindle the fire of war, Allah doth extinguish it;but they (ever) strive to do mischief on earth. And Allah loveth not those who do mischief."(5:64)

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Whatever 'floats your boat', Causative. All I can say.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Instead of debating about the important topics, you want to bring up small questions that are not beneficial to us in any way in hopes of planting doubt. I already addressed your questions but it hasn't satisfied you. The Holy Qur'an is a book of guidance, not an extensive family tree. Perhaps people reading recognise this.

    But if it makes you sleep at night, then it's fine.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    Here is an Analogy,of the WORDS to know who is the '' SPIRIT OF TRUTH '' as in John 16:12-14 and John 15:26-27 by comparing it to the Quran

    Quran 4:171 '' O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.''

    Continue Reading till verse 174 ''O mankind! Verily, there has come to you a convincing proof (Prophet Muhammad SAW) from your Lord, and We sent down to you a manifest light (this Quran)
    .


    Jesus (pbuh) foretold about Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in the following verses ( might be the few parts of verses that have not been omitted or distorted)

    John 16:12-14 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.…"He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.…


    MEANINGS OF THE ABOVE VERSE OF JOHN 16:12-14 by parts

    Spirit of truth : Means or refers to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) Correction: Does not refer to Arch angel Gabriel or Spirit to the Pentecost as in the post 55 & 56 in http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...e-Me-Now/page2

    but whatever He hears : means what ever he hears as Revelation from Arch angel Gibraeel or Gabriel

    He will disclose to you what is to come.: refers to hadith of All prophesies of victories, Trials, signs of the day of the judgement etc etc

    "He will glorify Me : Clear all the blasphemy about Jesus's(pbh) moral, miraculous birth and the Chastity of Mary (pbh)

    He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you.… : Take and CONTINUE THE Prophet hood that was assigned to Jesus(pbuh) THE MESSAGE OF ONE GOD ALLAH to fullfill the forgotten commandments of saying Asalamalikum,(sholaimalaikum OR Shalom ? ) Prohibition of wine,swine, Interest ,usury,




    Now Compare to verse of John 16: 12-14 above IN BLUE with the Quran 53: 3- 4

    ''Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed,''


    and see John 15:26-27 "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me, and you will testify also, because you have been with Me from the beginning.


    and you will testify also: means you will believe or You Must Believe Both Jesus & Muhammad as the Slave & Messenger '' Ashahadhu an Laa ilaha il Allah ashahadhu...anna Muhammadan abdhuhu warasooluhu

    So Do You Believe ? before Death overtakes and they will be the worst Losers. Read Quran verse a Prophesy about YOUR reply then: Quran 67 : 7-11
    And forgot to note in bolded red in the above verse of Quran 4:171 saying

    ''....................and a spirit proceeding from Him:.................................'''

    are the same as in John 15:26-27 '' .......... that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father,.........

  21. #100
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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    This is a Hadith Qudsi which means a narration of Prophet (pbuh) about what Allah said through Gabriel but its not in the Quran.

    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah said: 'The SON OF ADAM tells a lie against Me,, though he hasn't the right to do so. He abuses me though he hasn't the right to do so. As for his telling a lie against Me, it is his saying that I will not recreate him as I created him for the first time. In fact, the first creation was not easier for Me than new creation. As for his abusing Me, it is his saying that Allah has BEGOTTEN children, while I am the One, the Self-Sufficient Master Whom all creatures need, I beget not, nor was I BEGOTTEN, and there is none like unto Me." (Book #60, Hadith #498)

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    This is a Hadith Qudsi which means a narration of Prophet (pbuh) about what Allah said through Gabriel but its not in the Quran.

    Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah said: 'The SON OF ADAM tells a lie against Me,, though he hasn't the right to do so. He abuses me though he hasn't the right to do so. As for his telling a lie against Me, it is his saying that I will not recreate him as I created him for the first time. In fact, the first creation was not easier for Me than new creation. As for his abusing Me, it is his saying that Allah has BEGOTTEN children, while I am the One, the Self-Sufficient Master Whom all creatures need, I beget not, nor was I BEGOTTEN, and there is none like unto Me." (Book #60, Hadith #498)
    As you say this is not from the Quran. When reading this it appears the Allah is seeking to justify himself to his creation. Why would this be?

    Also may I just raise a query.. If as you claim Allah is absolute oneness in need of nothing or no one. How does Allah demonstrate love for his creation? Why does Allah require your worship if Allah is self sufficient unto himself?

    Can you explain the concept of tawheed? I don't just mean what the Quran tells you to say it is as in Allah's oneness but explain the concept and how it impacts on mankind in regards to having communion with the creator. I mean that is surely what we all hope for communion with the creator.

    Peace unto you.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbed View Post
    As you say this is not from the Quran. When reading this it appears the Allah is seeking to justify himself to his creation. Why would this be?

    Also may I just raise a query.. If as you claim Allah is absolute oneness in need of nothing or no one. How does Allah demonstrate love for his creation? Why does Allah require your worship if Allah is self sufficient unto himself?

    Can you explain the concept of tawheed? I don't just mean what the Quran tells you to say it is as in Allah's oneness but explain the concept and how it impacts on mankind in regards to having communion with the creator. I mean that is surely what we all hope for communion with the creator.

    Peace unto you.
    Concept of tawheed is having full conviction in the one and only creator; associating none with Him.
    "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."

    "Nothing protects the rights of the minority like the tyranny of the majority"

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Causative View Post
    candyapple

    In the Holy Scriptures the word "begotten" = Created. There is no different between these words in God;s word when it is talking about the creations of God. Do you understand that?
    What's the matter with you christians!

    If beget = created in your bible then jesus isnt SPECIAL.

    dont you have an issue with that? Cause EVERYBODY and everything is created by the creator.

    When you lose reason, you play with words because you realise you have NOTHING.

    YOU JOKE.

    atleast have the decency to admit the truth.
    "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."

    "Nothing protects the rights of the minority like the tyranny of the majority"

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbed View Post
    As you say this is not from the Quran. When reading this it appears the Allah is seeking to justify himself to his creation. Why would this be?

    Also may I just raise a query.. If as you claim Allah is absolute oneness in need of nothing or no one. How does Allah demonstrate love for his creation? Why does Allah require your worship if Allah is self sufficient unto himself?

    Can you explain the concept of tawheed? I don't just mean what the Quran tells you to say it is as in Allah's oneness but explain the concept and how it impacts on mankind in regards to having communion with the creator. I mean that is surely what we all hope for communion with the creator.

    Peace unto you.
    Hi Arbed, Greetings,

    I shall reply you but through another Hadith Qudsi that replies all your Doubts God willingly . kindly read and ponder and your number of questions could be reduced by reading this another Hadith Qudsi (kindly without prejudice & pointing faults).

    On the authority of Abu Dharr al-Ghifari (may Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)
    is that among the sayings he relates from his Lord (may He be glorified) is that He said:

    "‘O My servants, I have forbidden oppression for Myself and have made it forbidden amongst you, so do not oppress one another. O My servants, all of you are astray except for those I have guided, so seek guidance of Me and I shall guide you. O My servants, all of you are hungry except for those I have fed, so seek food of Me and I shall feed you. O My servants, all of you are naked except for those I have clothed, so seek clothing of Me and I shall clothe you. O My servants, you sin by night and by day, and I forgive all sins, so seek forgiveness of Me and I shall forgive you. O My servants, you will not attain harming Me so as to harm Me, and you will not attain benefiting Me so as to benefit Me. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as pious as the most pious heart of any one man of you, that would not increase My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as wicked as the most wicked heart of any one man of you, that would not decrease My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to rise up in one place and make a request of Me, and were I to give everyone what he requested, that would not decrease what I have, any more than a needle decreases the sea if put into it. O My servants, it is but your deeds that I reckon up for you and then recompense you for, so let him who finds good praise Allah and let him who finds other than that blame no one but himself.’"

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by candyapple View Post
    Concept of tawheed is having full conviction in the one and only creator; associating none with Him.
    With respect that does not really answer my question. All who believe in the One true God, Jews, Christians and Muslims have the conviction of God being the one and only creator, and what you say about association that is what your faith dictates. It does not explain the concept of absolute oneness. If you have conviction that the oneness of Allah is truth, then you must show the absolute reality of Allah in terms of his “total aloneness with and within himself” by matching him with that which is real, because absolute truth, according to all peoples, must match reality. In other words absolute truth must match that which exists in nature as a real thing. Can you find an absolute oneness within nature?

    Peace unto you.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    Hi Arbed, Greetings,

    I shall reply you but through another Hadith Qudsi that replies all your Doubts God willingly . kindly read and ponder and your number of questions could be reduced by reading this another Hadith Qudsi (kindly without prejudice & pointing faults).

    On the authority of Abu Dharr al-Ghifari (may Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him)
    is that among the sayings he relates from his Lord (may He be glorified) is that He said:

    "‘O My servants, I have forbidden oppression for Myself and have made it forbidden amongst you, so do not oppress one another. O My servants, all of you are astray except for those I have guided, so seek guidance of Me and I shall guide you. O My servants, all of you are hungry except for those I have fed, so seek food of Me and I shall feed you. O My servants, all of you are naked except for those I have clothed, so seek clothing of Me and I shall clothe you. O My servants, you sin by night and by day, and I forgive all sins, so seek forgiveness of Me and I shall forgive you. O My servants, you will not attain harming Me so as to harm Me, and you will not attain benefiting Me so as to benefit Me. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as pious as the most pious heart of any one man of you, that would not increase My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to be as wicked as the most wicked heart of any one man of you, that would not decrease My kingdom in anything. O My servants, were the first of you and the last of you, the human of you and the jinn of you to rise up in one place and make a request of Me, and were I to give everyone what he requested, that would not decrease what I have, any more than a needle decreases the sea if put into it. O My servants, it is but your deeds that I reckon up for you and then recompense you for, so let him who finds good praise Allah and let him who finds other than that blame no one but himself.’"
    I'm not sure if you highlight certain aspects of your post as to make a particular point. Are we in agreement that God/YHWH does not "need" your worship? I don't see it addresses the other points I made regarding the oneness of Allah, how does a unitary show love towards his creation?

    Peace unto you

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbed View Post
    With respect that does not really answer my question. All who believe in the One true God, Jews, Christians and Muslims have the conviction of God being the one and only creator, and what you say about association that is what your faith dictates. It does not explain the concept of absolute oneness. If you have conviction that the oneness of Allah is truth, then you must show the absolute reality of Allah in terms of his “total aloneness with and within himself” by matching him with that which is real, because absolute truth, according to all peoples, must match reality. In other words absolute truth must match that which exists in nature as a real thing. Can you find an absolute oneness within nature?

    Peace unto you.
    "We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness?"
    "If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor."

    "Nothing protects the rights of the minority like the tyranny of the majority"

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by candyapple View Post
    "We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness?"
    If you cannot answer the question it is fine. No problem.

    Peace unto you.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    And forgot to note in bolded red in the above verse of Quran 4:171 saying

    ''....................and a spirit proceeding from Him:.................................'''

    are the same as in John 15:26-27 '' .......... that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father,.........
    Asking please.. What do you take to mean the by Spirit of truth PROCEEDS from him/ or the Father whichever version you wish.

    Peace unto you

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbed View Post
    With respect that does not really answer my question. All who believe in the One true God, Jews, Christians and Muslims have the conviction of God being the one and only creator, and what you say about association that is what your faith dictates. It does not explain the concept of absolute oneness. If you have conviction that the oneness of Allah is truth, then you must show the absolute reality of Allah in terms of his “total aloneness with and within himself” by matching him with that which is real, because absolute truth, according to all peoples, must match reality. In other words absolute truth must match that which exists in nature as a real thing. Can you find an absolute oneness within nature?

    Peace unto you.
    Christians were amply warned against worshipping the creation rather than the Creator, so WHY are you asking for any "absolute oneness within nature"?

    Allah is not like anything in His creation, though all things are " OF Him".

    Mankind fell into the trap of worshipping creation by likening the sun to Allah, though there were no debates about there being three suns in one as in the trinity deception, still, worshipping the sun was a sin compounded over the whole earth.

    Meanwhile, you're sadly mistaken about Christians believing in the one true God, though Jesus did not teach them any such nonsense, most Christians believe in 1)God the Father 2)God the Son 3)God the Holy Spirit. Christians have even gone so far as to say that anyone who does not believe in the trinity cannot be saved!
    The Quran is a plain statement to men, a guidance and instruction to those who fear Allah, So lose not heart nor fall into despair, for ye MUST gain mastery if ye are true in faith. 3:138, 139 http://www.scribd.com/doc/116767121/...rlasting-Gospe

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbed View Post
    Asking please.. What do you take to mean the by Spirit of truth PROCEEDS from him/ or the Father whichever version you wish.

    Peace unto you

    Kindly read this post of # 99 together with its quote (# 94) to get the answer. I 've given footnotes or the real description of the meaning of the WORDS SIMILAR in BOTH the verse under the Title bolded in red as below. please take some time if you are really searching your beloved Creator

    '' MEANINGS OF THE ABOVE VERSE OF JOHN 16:12-14 by parts''

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post

    Kindly read this post of # 99 together with its quote (# 94) to get the answer. I 've given footnotes or the real description of the meaning of the WORDS SIMILAR in BOTH the verse under the Title bolded in red as below. please take some time if you are really searching your beloved Creator

    '' MEANINGS OF THE ABOVE VERSE OF JOHN 16:12-14 by parts''
    Better discard post # 111 , I will put it together in a Single post so that its easy to compare and understand

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by josephrohdes221 View Post
    Jesus may be the son of god but GOD has not one single name or is not like the property of any one of religion or of country. All living beings are created, brought up and then finished as per HIS will,and we should, i think not to indulge ourselves and restricted to one or more words. i never read in any religion so far that there are 5 or 10 gods. Rather we should look into how to promote brotherhood in this world till we are living and with peace and happiness. there are many personalities in every religion, admirable and adorable. thanks
    The Main Problem is understanding the meaning or concept of God itself. that's why their are multiple Gods . Lets listen to Bible Scholar for 30 years Bart Ehrman.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yte-ad6Y31s

    he says these concept of Multiple Gods came from Greeks & Romans

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by eldon View Post
    Christians were amply warned against worshipping the creation rather than the Creator, so WHY are you asking for any "absolute oneness within nature"?

    Allah is not like anything in His creation, though all things are " OF Him".

    Mankind fell into the trap of worshipping creation by likening the sun to Allah, though there were no debates about there being three suns in one as in the trinity deception, still, worshipping the sun was a sin compounded over the whole earth.

    Meanwhile, you're sadly mistaken about Christians believing in the one true God, though Jesus did not teach them any such nonsense, most Christians believe in 1)God the Father 2)God the Son 3)God the Holy Spirit. Christians have even gone so far as to say that anyone who does not believe in the trinity cannot be saved!
    Greetings. Christians do not worship a creation, we worship the creator as the creator has revealed Himself to us through His Word, Yeshua.

    I am asking if muslims can demonstrate or explain the absolute oneness of Allah. God created all we are and all we can ever be along with everything bountiful on the earth to sustain us in this life, then it follows that creation reflects the creator. God/YHWH said

    "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness ....." Genesis 1:26.

    So why is it hard for you to find absolute oneness in the creation that reflects the creator? You say "Allah is not like anything in His creation though all things are of Him...but do you not see if the creation is of Allah then it must reflect Allah's absolute oneness somewhere. Yet everything in creation is made of composite parts which form the whole. Whereas, I see no need to enter into debate on the trinity, as the Bible does not teach it and indeed the word trinity is not found there, although the concept is. As the word tawheed is not found in the Quran you would say the concept "oneness" is. It's my belief that the trinity best demonstrates the nature of God. Plurality in unity.. If God be love as Christians believe Him to be then the trinity offers the perfect example of Gods love because God exists in eternity in a mutually loving community of God, His Word (Yeshua) and His Holy Spirit. To love one has to experience love, it is a force to be shared. We reflect this force of love within ourselves in our need for community with each other. This is a reflection of Gods divine love.

    Yeshua said... And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. John 17:5

    John 8:58–59
    58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

    There are many verses (as those above) in which Yeshua claims to have existed with God from the beginning, you may well choose to interpret them differently, but sometimes the most obvious and simple claims are usually the correct ones. So you are in error when you say Yeshua did not teach God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the Bible... He did. You are mistaking the Quran's teachings as Yeshuas teachings. I do not see Yeshua and Isa of the Quran have many points in common. Maybe you could give me examples of Yeshuas teachings in the Quran? I confess I do not see them.

    Christianity does not teach the belief in the trinity is a condition of being saved. If anyone told you that either they were mistaken or possibly you misunderstood what they meant.

    Peace unto you.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    Better discard post # 111 , I will put it together in a Single post so that its easy to compare and understand
    I will await your post with interest.

    Peace unto you

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by talibilm09 View Post
    Undoubtedly he is. that's why he had a very bad end, Proof is from the below video SUPPOSED to be the OLDEST BIBLE older than the Gospels supposedly written when JESUS was alive or shortly after his disappeared written by Jesus's near family members.

    www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogXWwKcHPNc
    Quote Originally Posted by candyapple View Post
    This vid is amazing. Atleast some Christians out there are seeking the truth.
    Just to clear something up.

    The Didache isn't a bible. It was a contender to be included, as the early Christians were putting their compilations together, but it didn't make the cut.

    It does refer to the trinity, so it is not proof of the trinity being "invented" by the Pope, or whatever the theory is these days.

    It is said by historians to bear the hallmarks of a compound document. (meaning one person didn't sit down and write it from scratch)

    Nobody seriously seems to think it was really written during the time of Jesus. Even Christian sources say probably not earlier than 85, and they always try to make things seem older than they are.

    That documentary is a bit misleading.

  38. #117
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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by iwasjimmyjimmy View Post
    Just to clear something up.

    The Didache isn't a bible. It was a contender to be included, as the early Christians were putting their compilations together, but it didn't make the cut.

    It does refer to the trinity, so it is not proof of the trinity being "invented" by the Pope, or whatever the theory is these days.

    It is said by historians to bear the hallmarks of a compound document. (meaning one person didn't sit down and write it from scratch)

    Nobody seriously seems to think it was really written during the time of Jesus. Even Christian sources say probably not earlier than 85, and they always try to make things seem older than they are.

    That documentary is a bit misleading.

    Do not put all the eggs in one basket is the saying but in the case of Bart Ehrman I feel we can put 80% of all the eggs in the same basket, ie Bart Erhman's research & findings of 30 years, If you what I mean , I can believe his analysis of Christianity and similarly any records that support his view MUST be taken as legitimate proof and should be respected as well.

    So I know, the Didache isn't a bible but I called it a Bible because TODAY only controversy attracts the people more than reality itself. But I feel the Didache http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogXWwKcHPNc by Jesus Fellow family members which was written during the existence of Jesus ought to carry Logically more weight & a legitimate & reasonable testimony to Jesus and I would respect it more than the so called distorted testaments or with 10000's of Mistakes (as Bart says in the Video below ) which came in a complete form only nearly 3 and a half centuries, As Per Bart Erhman, the ex Evangelist and Fundamentalist Bible scholar who rightly says it was copied from the copy of the copy of the copy but none of the copies exist now. Kindly watch him here below and watch all or many of his videos which I feel MUST be given Top Most importance from such an Unbiased Fundamentalist Christian. I would also like to tell our Christian Brethren its not my Intention to Blaspheme anything of them because as per Quran they are honourable Charactered People but their superfluous Love of Jesus is the reason for all the mess which had mislead them from understanding The Concept of GOD itself.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0GF6YIk-2s

    So the people who justify Trinity with their concept of water in a 3 state etc are doing an Error greater than following parable. Let me give a parable Its like a Muslim guard warning someone not to enter the den because there's a Tiger inside but a Christian Guard do warns but says don't go inside there is a big cat inside. We know tiger belongs to the cat family but still there is an earth and sky difference between the two warnings or a Live or Die difference. But in the case of the beautiful honoured creation like Jesus and His Creator Allah has unimaginable difference even MORE than the Earth and sky itself if you ponder on this Quran verse and a Sahih Bukari hadith

    Noble Quran 31:27 '' ''And if all the trees on the earth were pens and the sea (were ink wherewith to write), with seven seas behind it to add to its (supply), yet the Words of Allah would not be exhausted. Verily, Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.

    Hadith Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "On the Day of Resurrection Allah will hold the whole earth and fold the heaven with His
    right hand and say
    , 'I am the king: where are the kings of the earth?" ' (bukari Book #93, Hadith #479)
    (all Arrogant Kings will be summoned and thrown in the Hell first even before reckoning starts on the day of judgement)

    Noble Quran 5:40 '' ''Do you not know that to Allah belongs the Dominion of the heavens and the earth ? He punishes whom He wills and forgives whom He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.''


    So any one who compares to anything anyone to the ONLY ONE CREATOR ALLAH will burn in the hell for Eternity, As per Noble Quran.

    2:126''...........[ Allah ] said. "And whoever disbelieves - I will grant him enjoyment for a little; then I will force him to the punishment of the Fire, and wretched is the destination."

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Talibilm09, there is no evidence that the Didache was written by Jesus family, but as I said, it does mention the trinity, and to be fair, it is said to be from the first century, around the same time as the gospels in the Bible.

    As for the letters of other family members. Well the documentary talks about a "strong oral tradition", but the epistles of Jude and James is not written by Jesus brothers as far as I can tell. There are multiple reasons why not to accept that they are authentic.

    Whenever a Christian says "tradition says", it means, somebody made up the authorship of the bible documents to make it look more credible. They provide a better back story that way

    Bart Erhman never says that anything "important" has changed between the documents that he has examined. His ideas about the virgin birth are seperate to his ideas about document copying errors.

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by iwasjimmyjimmy View Post
    Talibilm09, there is no evidence that the Didache was written by Jesus family, but as I said, it does mention the trinity, and to be fair, it is said to be from the first century, around the same time as the gospels in the Bible.

    As for the letters of other family members. Well the documentary talks about a "strong oral tradition", but the epistles of Jude and James is not written by Jesus brothers as far as I can tell. There are multiple reasons why not to accept that they are authentic.

    Whenever a Christian says "tradition says", it means, somebody made up the authorship of the bible documents to make it look more credible. They provide a better back story that way

    Bart Erhman never says that anything "important" has changed between the documents that he has examined. His ideas about the virgin birth are seperate to his ideas about document copying errors.
    I did not know there's such a strategy of claiming to be an atheist and defend Christianity iwasjimmyjimmy. Good move mate. So as per your statement there are no records of the Bible as well since the first records were nearly 60 years after Jesus's Disappearance implies there is no Evidence for both as well like as for the Didache.

    Man thanks for your comments & guidance, which you should keep your babbling for yourselves and the staunch misguided Christians , am not forcing anybody but I am giving facts from their sources Guided by the Unaltered purely Preserved Holy QuranSo those who want to be in the darkness let them be with dreams & fantasies . Read Matthew 7: 22-23 hope that helps atleast if my post # 99 if no use, Where Jesus declares in both the verses that the Helper will glorify me. Tell me,Who Glorified Jesus ? other than the Quran & Muslims & Islam in the 7 th century ? tell me the truth if ye people know the meaning of Truth. the Jews were insulting them both Jesus & Mary with the 7 letter word & it was Quran that united both the Jews & Christians with the Honoured title of ' The people of the book ' such they started to call both their books with a single word as testaments the Old & New ! How ungrateful are Humans.!

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    Re: Why jesus is not the son of god ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arbed View Post

    "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness ....." Genesis 1:26.
    Peace unto you.
    I'd like to address this part. In Islam, we do not believe that creation is part of the Oneness of God. God is completely independent from His creation. This would be analogous to saying: if I made a machine, would I now be part of the machine? Similarly, if I made a sofa, would I be part of the sofa?

    There is a hadith [transmitted sayings, deeds of the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him)] in which the Prophet mentions that Allah (swt) created Adam in his image [since you mentioned the Biblical verse]:

    'Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created Adam in His own imagewith His length of sixty cubits, and as He created him He told him to greet that group, and that was a party of angels sitting there, and listen to the response that they give him, for it would form his greeting and that of his offspring. He then went away and said: Peace be upon you! They (the angels) said: May there be peace upon you and the Mercy of Allah, and they made an addition of" Mercy of Allah". So he who would get into Paradise would get in the form of Adarn, his length being sixty cubits, then the people who followed him continued to diminish in size up to this day.' - [Sahih Muslim, Book 40, #6089]

    However, this is not interpreted to mean [as the Christians would believe] that Adam (as) was created in Allah's (swt) image. It means rather that Adam (as) was created in his own image, as in Adam needed not to grow, develop, and mature like us. He was already created from day one with eyes, lips, limbs, size, and was already matured by Allah (swt). Allah (swt) is Alone and unlike His creation as you said, and everything is from Him but are not part of Him.

    And Allah (swt) knows best.

 

 

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