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    Senior Member CELT ISLAM's Avatar
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    Fiat Paper Money vs Crytocurrency (bitcoin)

    Fatwa
    Concerning the Islamic Prohibition of Using Paper-Money as a Medium of Exchange




    GRANADA, 18th of August of 1991.

    The proof of this prohibition of usury comes from the book of Allah :

    "Allah has permitted trade and forbidden usury"
    (Quran, 2, 275)


    Allah has forbidden usury, and therefore all the transactions which fall under this category are all forbidden by Allah. Imam Malik said:

    "Whatever makes a sale halal makes it halal and whatever makes a sale haram makes it haram"
    ("Al-Muwatta", Book of Commercial Transactions, 49)


    We are going to prove, Inshaallah, that the use of paper-money makes the transaction usurious and haram and consequently we will declare that the use of paper-money is haram.

    This Fatwa consist of 4 parts:

    Before we enter into a proper analysis of what paper-money is, we will examine the law to undertand what Allah has made haram, namely usury, so that we will be able to identify it. 1. The Nature of Usury



    Then we will examine the nature of paper money 2. What is paper-money?



    Then we will arrive at a decision on the matter 3. CONCLUSION OF THE FATWA



    And finally we will examine how can we implement the fatwa 4. APPLICATION OF THE FATWA

    The Nature of Usury



    Usury in Arabic means increment, excess. The definition of usury by Qadi Abu Bakr Ibn al-'Arabi in his "Ahkamul'Qur'an" is:

    "Usury (Riba) is any unjustified increment by its countervalue ('iwadun)"

    Another form of expressing the same is:

    "Usury is any unjustified increment between the value of the goods given and the countervalue of the goods received"

    Definitions: What is the thing that is increased in such a usurious contract? What is increased in the usurious contract is not merely the quantity, like for example, the weight of one good against the other.We will call this caracteristic of the goods: value (qimah). Value includes the quantity and quality of the goods, and also is a reflection of a free market and it is the reflection of a just transaction. Goods ('ard) is anything containing wealth in general that can be sold or bought, including merchandises and the particial use of rentable merchandises. The value of goods is the comparative relation with some other goods in a just commercial transaction (bay'). Value is each one of the two relations between two equivalent parts:

    The value of A is B: A=B

    The value of B is A: B=A

    ...

    Note for people miseducated in a Faculty of Economics:

    The kafirs speak of value as a subjective/objective representation. Value is sometimes represented by a concept of subjective utility (Galiani), sometimes by objective labor (Smith, Ricardo), sometimes represented by abstract labor (Marx), sometimes by numerical data (Samuelson). Value is not something psychical, is not a concept. To evaluate is a human act, and an act only exists in its performance. Evaluation exists only in the instant when two parties exchange goods within certain existential conditions that make the exchange equivalent. And these conditions are the matter of Islamic Jurisprudence.

    ...

    We warn all Muslims against the spread of the kafir doctrines of Karl Marx among ourselves, sometimes through the influence of munafiqun and ignorant people. Karl Marx was a Jew of a very important rabbinical family in Germany. The core and basis of his doctrine is called: the doctrine of surplusvalue (Mehrwert, in the original German), which for Marx was like robbery. Surplusvalue could literally be translated in Arabic (a semitic language like hebrew) as Riba. Usury comes from latin. Surplusvalue is a literal translation of the semitic word which means usury. If we realise that surplusvalue 'means' usury, we can see how Marx then twisted the meaning. Where we say making profit in one transaction is usury, he said it is not usury (surplusvalue) and is acceptable (halal). And where we say making profit in between two transaction is trade and is halal, he said is usury (surplusvalue) and is unacceptable (haram). Marx twisted the meaning of usury to its opposite.

    ... What is paper-money?



    What we know today as paper money is the result of an historical evolution. And it is still evolving*. Paper money in history has passed through different stages, in which paper-money has adopted different natures therefore has been understood in different ways.

    PAPER MONEY THROUGH HISTORY.

    Paper money is a creation of the Kufr of the West and it is not the creation of Islam. It was then introduce in the Muslim land through the colonial and intellectual pressure of the kafirs, and the colaboration of some munafikun.

    In the European Middle Ages money consisted of gold and silver, although generally altered by the kings. The use of paper money is already recorded, though limitedly in its use, between merchants and bankers in Italy in the XI century, and later on in Naples, Sweden, Cologne, Vienna or Granada from the XV century right up to the short attempts or experiments with paper money that happened in France during the XVIII century (John Law in 1720). This original use of paper-money must be distinguished from the use of paper money in the new country called United States, when a significant and fundamental change happened in the use of paper money: Paper money, the dollar, became the generalised and lasting medium of exchange. A third period must be distinguished after World War II when paper-money gradually became what it is today: a monopolised merchandise standing on its own, not representing other particular merchandise.

    ...

    WHEN A DEBT BECAME THE LEGAL MEDIUM OF EXCHANGE

    The establishment of the Bank of England had originated a new situation in relation to paper money. The bank created by Patterson had 72,000 pounds in gold and they lent 16.75 times more to the king of England (William of Orange) to finance his war against France. He lent the money at an annual interest of 8.25% so that it received 100,000 pounds a year of interest. Although he had only 72,000 pounds he received an interest of 100,000 a year, therefore, about 140% a year. When some people started to rumour that the Bank had not enough gold for all the receipts, the state, who needed them to finance the war, declared them legal money of the kingdom. By law the receipts had the same value as the gold that they represented. The debt became legal medium of exchange. The example was repeated successfully in other countries, until it reached its peak with the constitutional establishment of legal paper-money in U.S.A.

    ... On the trading generally with receipts (debt):



    The trading generally with debts, without being contained to particular cases, is usury and haram

    Zayd ibn Thabit, one of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, made haram the trading with receipts. He said it is usury.

    Yahya related to me from Malik that he had heard that receipts were given to people in the time of Marwan ibn al-Hakm for the produce of the market at al-Jar. People bought and sold the receipts among themselves before they took delivery of the goods. Zayd ibn Thabit and one of the Companions of the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, went to Marwan ibn al-Hakam and said, "Marwan! Do you make usury halal?" He said, I seek refuge with Allah! What is that?" He said, "These receipts [sukuukun] which people buy and sell before they take delivery of the goods." Marwan therefore sent guards to follow them and to take them from people's hands and return them to their owners.

    ("Al-Muwatta", Book of Commercial Transactions, 44) Conclusion



    Paper-money as a debt cannot be used as a medium of exchange. A debt is restricted to a private contract between two parts, and it should remain like that.

    The general use of a debt in the exchanges is in most of the cases haram, and it is in general disapproved. It is only limitedly allowed in a private situation. Therefore the use of a debt as a medium of exchange is haram. CONCLUSION OF THE FATWA



    After examining the nature of paper money in all possible forms: as a debt (a promise to pay a merchandise or representing a merchandise) and as a merchandise, we have seen its use makes the transaction usurious.

    Paper money cannot be accepted as a medium of exchange even if it represents a merchandise gold or silver, on a nominal and one to one basis. Even if that were the case it could not be used outside the closed circuit of depositor and receiver. Only on a private scale it can be transferred but may not circulate.

    But if we consider that nowadays paper-money has become nothing but a pure symbol with no reality attached except the imposition of the law, then it is clear that the use of paper money is usury because:

    - Its 'legal value' is an imposition by the state on the people and

    - Its production is a limited monopoly by the same state that imposes it.

    Without these two elements which are usurious conditions the value of the paper-money would be nothing.

    Therefore we declare a Fatwa in Granada, for all the Muslims, by which:

    After examining all the aspects of paper-money, in the Light of the Qur'an and the Sunna, we declare that the use of paper-money in any form of exchange is usury and is therefore haram. It is not permitted for the Muslim to accept or to give paper-money in a commercial transaction. It is an obligation on the Muslims to abandon usury and to introduce new media of exchange, or money, and the best way is to follow the sunna of the Messenger of Allah, salallau alaihi wa salaam, by using gold and silver, or any other merchandise commonly accepted as a medium of exchange. APPLICATION OF THE FATWA



    "The use of paper-money in any form of exchange is usury and is therefore haram". This fatwa obliges all the Muslims to abandon the practice of usury in the form of using paper money as the medium of exchange. The understanding of this fatwa should not lead to the conclusion that therefore I can not take a taxi back home because I will have to pay the taxidriver with paper-money. This way of thinking is mockery with the intention of preventing you from doing anything serious about it. What one should understand is that money is not a personal matter, but it is common agreement among people. What one should do is to create an arena of people where you can agree to accept a different medium of exchange. This is a decision for a group, not a matter for a single individual.

    We must understand that the introduction of paper-money as a medium of exchange among the Muslims has been a process of 200 years. We must understand that we have modelled and fashioned our ways of trading and our ways of living around the existence of paper-money. All this must change in order to be able to avoid the haram.

    ...

    The "Islamic Bank" is a completely usurious institution used as a means to lure the Muslim who still reject the banks to enter in the banking system. The "Islamic Bank" is a Trojan horse in Dar al-Islam.

    Note: a warning against the Modernist Movement and the allowance of usury

    The inspiration behind the Modernist Movement is said to have been Jamal-ud-Din al Afgani (1839-1897), its brain was Muhammad 'Abdou (1845-1905) and the one who extended it was Rashid Reda (1865-1935). It appeared as a rejection of the colonialism, but their emotional rejection of the West was accompanied by a deep and not discriminated admiration of the West. This movement is responsible for the introduction of a false teaching that said banking and insurance transactions are not usury and are allowed in our Muslim community.

    Muhammad 'Abdou because of his position - he was posted as Shaykh (Director) of the renowned University of Al-Azhar by Lord Cromer, Brithish Governor of Egypt - was the most damaging of all. His first fatwa as Shaykh al-Azhar was: "interest in saving funds is allowed". He wrote (5th of Dec. of 1903):

    "The stipulated usury is not permisible in any case; whereas the Post Office invest monies taken from the people, which are not taken as loans based on need, it would be possible to apply the investment of such monies on the rules of a partnership in commendan"

    ("Al-Manar", vol. VI, part 18, pag. 717)

    The door to the using of the banks and their banking money was therefore opened. The basis of the "Islamic Bank" had also been delineated by which the interest can be considered as if it were part of parnership in qirad.

    Muhammad Rashid Reda was the founder of the magazine "Al-Manar" distributed around all the Muslim World. He participated in the same circle of people as Lord Cromer and 'Abdou. He opposed the traditional position of the Madhhabs to impose his own opinions. He also bitterly opposed the traditional Sufis. His opinions are clearly exposed in his writing:

    "There is nothing in our religion which is incompatible with the current civilisation, especially those aspects regarded as useful by all civilised nations, except with regard to a few questions of usury [riba] and I am ready to sanction [from the point of view of the Shari'a] everything that the experience of the Europeans before us shows to be needed for the progress of the state in terms of the true Islam. But I must not confine myself to a school of law, only the Qur'an and the authentic Hadith" ("Al-Manar", vol. XII, p.239)

    "Except with regard to a few questions of usury [riba]" What he meant by a "few questions" is for example that he saw nothing wrong with taking up a life insurance policy ("Al-Manar", vol. XXVII, pag. 346, also vol.VII, pags. 384-8, and vol. VIII, pag. 588). He also decries the jurists' misuse of Qiyas to extend to the area of prohibition on taking interest on capital and suggests that the taking of interest on monies left in the bank or post office does not come under the prohibited usury. ("Al-Manar", vol. VII, pag. 28).

    The teaching of this people or other people who use their arguments in their judgement have to be rejected. With it the restoration of the traditional fiqh that clearly forbids usury in all its forms.

    ...

    Some 'practical people' pretend that you cannot leave paper-money and the banks. But to abandon usury is not impossible, it is the easiest thing possible. Allah does not imposes on any soul a duty beyond that which it can bear. Allah has commanded us to two distinctive tasks:

    1. The abandoning of usury

    2. Fighting against those who practice usury

    Abandoning usury is also the creation of a halal way of trading among ourselves, which does not involve any form of paper-money or other usurious practice. And fighting against the usurers is to destroy the means by which they practice usury using all the methods at hand (harb). Both of them must go together, we cannot promote the destruction of the usurious system if at the same time we do not provide an alternative. Equally we will not be able to succeed in establishing an Islamic market if we do not dismantle the fragile structure of the financial and usurious nexus. This is the future fight of the Muslims.

    The Creation of an Islamic Market

    The Path towards the Islamic Market should be a progressive, systematic, and strategic abandoning of the usurious system.

    •The first step is education. Knowledge of the basic rules of the Islamic Market: the basis of qirad, a commercial transaction, what is riba... This is essential because this knowledge is practically lost. Most of the Muslims have adopted the ways of the kafir, and have complete ignorance of how this could be done Islamically.

    •Second it is obligatory take on the fard of chosing an Emir in every community of Muslims to whom all of them give oath of alliance (the bai'at). The Emir is the seal of the community, gathers the people together and pursues justice in the controversies of the community.

    •Third we should start implementing strategically the Law, this could be carried out in three stages

    a] Minting of coins: gold, silver, copper, or anything commonly accepted. This is for us real money. The sunna of the Messenger of Allah was to use gold and silver as the main medium of exchange

    b] Establishment of Muslim Fairs or Markets. Putting the coins in circulation, among the people who will agree to keep them in circulation (and not keeping them). Thus condition of the Trade Fairs among Muslims will be to deal with the real coins and not with paper. The Market should proliferate in different communities, until we are able to establish permanent ones in every Muslim community under the authority of an Emir.

    .. The Destruction of the Usurious System



    To impose the supremacy of our deen to Kufr is an obligation for the Muslims. Allah has made Jihad fisabilillah, halal for the Muslims. To fight fisabilillah, the first condition is that the banner of Islam must be raised high, it cannot be done by secret organizations. Kufr cannot be fought with the weapons of kufr, the military struggle cannot succeed unless we stop paying a usurious tribute to the kuffar.

    The first struggle against kufr, should be against their usurious (financial and monetary) system. The usurious system of money and finance is the weakest part of their system, because it is based on pure fantasy. The enourmous debts of the countries and the even bigger debt of the individual persons to the banks DOES NOT EXIST on paper. It is pure computer data. It is like a magic. As long as people believe that this system has a reality, they will find themselves prisoner of its demands and ways. The moment they realise that the wealth is in themselves and that they do not need this usurious system, the system will collapse. Collapse is the inevitable destiny of the usurious system, because Allah has declare his war against those who follow it. In the meanwhile a group of totally commited Muslims will take on their duty to use strength and wealth to spoil and to destroy the usurious system.

    ...

    The events of recent History reveal that the fight against the kufr cannot yet take place in the battlefield, they are prepared for this in the most extraordinary way, that they can kill without being present. This is the kind of battle they are expecting. But our battle is global, and clearly oriented to their weakest point.

    It is necessary to form small groups, with the authority of one Emir, to fulfill this obligation of the Muslims. The first step of these groups is that they must swear absolute allegiance among themselves for the purpose of the ghazwat. They must then study the best strategy to have success. And then commit themselves to the action.

    About the targets the Shaykh has said:

    "It should be remembered that in the early phase of the Jihad, raiding should be on targets of all who participate in the haram usurious practice, and that the jews have enhanced their power, that is, the worthless paper-money, by their own hoards of wealth, through control of the diamond and the gold markets, and that these centres of hoarded wealth are among the necessary first targets to finance the larger struggle"

    ("The Sign of the Sword", p. 63)

    The Islamic future will inevitably target computer systems, and erase debt information of major banks all over the world. Enter into their system and transfer money at random, or to a particular accounts that we can use. Alter the information in a way that they cannot reconstruct it. To do that we are in an excellent position because all Muslim are potential mujahidin. And nowadays the Muslims, whether it is correct or incorrect, are everywhere inside the whole of the usurious system. This Muslims and their expertise are our weapons. Weapons are not tanks nowadays. Weapons are technical knowledge and people with access to information. We have all that we need within our Muslim Umma.

    The computer networks are being infiltrated everyday. In many cases by young boys for the purpose of playing. This weakness is growing and growing as their greed grows. It means that a free spirit and conviction is the most powerful of all guarantees of success.

    Our businessman have also a task to do. They have their own networks of people who trust, and have access to very valuable information. The only thing they have to do is stop being naive about the bank and the financial institution. They should not play the role of victims with them. Do not admit their conditions and rules, but play with them at your favour. They have to change the mentality. They should prepare themselves within their rules to take from the enemy. Create companies in a vacuum and absorb debt that will never be paid back, create different financial identities to avoid the control and taxation of the state, use everything you know to take from them and sabotage them.

    These teams of truly Muslim Mujahedeen, should appear everywhere. Not only one head, but we should be many heads. As the Shaykh says:

    "It follows that one should strike at the place not expected. By extension, in the light of the current situation, one may strike at several centres all at the same time, thus causing havoc in the enemy and their response."

    ("The Sign of the Sword", p. 63)

    The election of the targets has to be ordered by their priority in relation to the total struggle against Kufr. We should not fell into the temptation of chosing those which seem easier, but rather we should chose those which are more effective against the usurious system. We should also remember that although the booty in Jihad is halal for the Muslims, this is not the purpose of the fight. The purpose is to make Kufr surrender to the deen of Islam. Therefore the first targets must be the bigger targets, even if they take longer to get organized. So that they can be delitated, and you introduce chaos in their usurious system. We should use the surprise, to hit in their key communications centers and to their key people. And once the first targets are covered we should move to the smaller ones.

    We call you all Muslims with an Amir to the struggle fisabilillah against the usurious system! These are just simple examples of how things can be done. Victory is certain if we fight fisabilillah. Therefore fisabilillah must be our constant remembrance. Victory belongs to Allah.

    The Book of Allah:

    "Allah imposes not on any soul a duty greater than it can bear. For it gets every good that it earns, and it suffers every ill that it earns. Our Lord! Punish us not if we forget or make a mistake. Our Lord! Do not lay on us a burden as You laid on those before us. Our Lord! Lay not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. And pardon us! And grant us protection! And have mercy on us! You are our Protection! So grant us victory over the disbelieving people"

    (Quran, 2, 286) * It is evolving from its paper form towards an electronic form representing some hipothetical unit of money, as the universal and unique the medium of exchange.

  2. #2
    أنا مسلم AbuMubarak's Avatar
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    though i agree with you, what are you gonna do?
    .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
    نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
    دولة الإسلامية باقية






  3. #3
    Senior Member pooya's Avatar
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    hmm. always wondered about paper money and riba.

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    Odan faqir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AbuMubarak
    though i agree with you, what are you gonna do?
    Exactly.


    http://www.guidinghelper.com/qna/zakat.html



    > I would like to ask you concerning the matter of paper money. I find it
    > a difficult matter when if is considered from the point of view of our
    > fiqh. It can be categorized as fulus or factionary currency if we look at
    > it as it is now. Or as a debt if we look at it from an historical point of
    > view ant its genesis. In both cases it creates serious problems as far as
    > the rulings of Zakat or Riba are concerned. Most of the ulama I have asked
    > have a tendency to treat paper money as if it is gold or silver therefore
    > they say that Zakat should be paid from it and it is riba to lend it in
    > order to get benefit. I have noticed that this is also your position. But
    > the fact of being flus or a debt changes the fiqh ruling on it. There is a
    > fatwa from Shaikh ?Illish al-Maliki (the Sheikh of the Malikis of al-Azhar
    > in his time and, by the way, a implacable enemy of Sh. Muhammad Abduh) in
    > his collection of fatwas al-Fath al-Ali al-Malik where he says that zakat
    > should not be paid on paper money because it is fulus (factionary currency
    > made of copper or other material other than gold and silver) and zakat is
    > not paid on fulus in the Maliki madhhab.
    >
    > I do understand both positions but I would like to know if you do have
    > more thoughts on this subjet.

    The position we narrate is taken our teachers who feel that one should
    try one's best to practice the five pillars of Islam even if some
    essentials and preconditions cannot be fully met due to one's
    uncontrollable circumstances.

    This is also the position of Muhammad ibn Muhammad ibn `Abdullah ibn
    al-Mubarak al-Fathi al-Marakishi al-Maliki al-Muwaqqat, a late scholar
    of the last century who came up with this ruling after the French instated
    paper currency in Morocco. He states in his Habl al-Matin:

    fi mi'atay dirhamin shar`iyyatin aw `ishrina dinarin shar`iyyatin
    fakthara aw ma yatanazzalu manzalatahuma min hadhihi al-awraqi
    al-hadithah yajibu rub`u l-ushri fihima. wa ma zada `ala dhalika
    wa in qalla fabihisabihi. wa yajuzu ikhraju dh-dhabi `an il-fiddati
    wa l-fiddatu `an dh-dhahabi wa yajuzu ikhraju ma tatanazzalu
    manzilatahuma `anhuma ya yu`tabaru fi dhalika sarfu z-zaman.

    For every 200 dirhams (according to Shari`ah weight) or 20
    dinars (according to Shari`ah weight) or *what is equivalent
    in paper currency*, one forth of a tenth is due on them.

    And it is permissible to pay gold for silver and silver for gold.
    It is also permissible to pay what is equivalent [of paper currency]
    for gold and silver. And one should regard in this matter what
    is considered cash currency in one's time.

    [HM: volume 1: page(s) 42-43: line(s) 23,1-3 :{explanation of
    al-Murshid al-Mu`in, line 187 "`ishruna dinaran nisaban fi
    dh-dhahab..."}]

    And of course, you will find differences among the scholars
    on this point. But, this seems to be the dominant position
    of most of the scholars (e.g., Hanafi, Shafi`i, Maliki) present
    today that teach legal rulings to the common man.
    http://www.islam.tc/ask-imam/view.php?q=7936

    Question: Please review the PROOF behind the idea that paper money is haraam.

    I saw that u do not regard paper money as being haraam, but please respond to the following, in detail: Moulana Imran Hosein (who studied under Moulana Fazlur Rahman Ansari) says the following: 1. Modern paper money is a branch of riba. He gives the following reasons: A. Modern paper money is “fiat” money i.e. it is not redeemable for any precious metal (gold/silver) or other commodity. Therefore, the value assigned to it, e.g. R100, is not convertible into actual value – it can only be used to buy some other good or stored as useless paper. B. The international system of exchange rates allows certain individuals/companies/countries to devalue a currency within minutes i.e. speculatory attack on a currency. Also, exchange rates are set arbitrarily. This means that the value assigned to a paper note is constantly changing, and wealth can be created or destroyed merely by virtue of exchange rates. This facilitates the transfer of wealth from poor to rich, without any effort on the part of the rich, and paper money is a mechanism of riba. C. Paper money has no intrinsic value – value is arbitrarily assigned (unlike gold, which has historical, universal value).


    Firstly, you use the word ‘proof’ in your question, yet there was no proof ever mentioned by the claimant that paper money is Haraam. By proof we mean Shar’ee proofs, not simply disadvantages. To make something Haraam one has to have Dalaa-il (sound shar’ee proofs).

    We accept that paper money is not the Islamically ideal means of exchange. It definitely has its elements of deception, and has been easily manipulated by western powers to subjugate economically weaker nations. The ideal would be to deal in gold and silver, which have real and intrinsic value. Therefore it would be the duty of a true Islamic State to revert to gold and silver as the standard means of exchange, which could then be represented by paper money.

    However, it does not follow that under the present circumstances it is Haraam to use paper money. Islam is a practical way of life, and the Fuqahaa (jurists) of Islam have laid down guidelines by means of which we can practice on this Deen in every age. They have explained that if any commodity becomes the means of exchange in any society, and this is the norm, then value will be attributed to that commodity based on the norm of that society. A simple example would be that in some societies in the past shells were used as the standard means of exchange. Although shells in themselves do not hold intrinsic value, since the society attributed value to it, such items may be used as a means of exchange.

    The fact that paper money has been manipulated by certain powers, and they have designed their system of Riba around it, does not render paper money Haraam. It is the transaction of Riba and the act of manipulation that are Haraam, and not the currency itself. If tomorrow they design their schemes around metals, are we then going to say that dealing in metals is Haraam. Certainly not! In fact, one who is aware of the detail rules of Riba would be aware that gold and silver are more susceptible to the contract of Riba than currencies are.

    On a practical level, one can understand that it would be virtually impossible to do without paper money. Now that this so called Maulana considers paper money as Haraam, one wonders what he would do if, for example, he had to go for Hajj. Does he take trunks full of coins along because paper money is Haraam. One has to be realistic.

    For details on the development of paper money, and the Shar’ee rulings of its usage, refer to “Al Qadhaayah al fiqhiyyah al muaasirah” by Mufti Taqi Uthmaani Saheb. This is an excellent work on the subject.

    and Allah Ta'ala Knows Best

    Moulana Imraan Vawda
    FATWA DEPT.


    And Allah swt knows best

  5. #5
    Senior Member CELT ISLAM's Avatar
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    this is the problem, too many dont know what they are talking about, no matter what people say banks and paper money wil allways be haraam for they are the tools of riba[ usury ].

  6. #6
    *bıɟɐɹɯıɯɐʇpɐʎızɯɯn* .: Anna :.'s Avatar
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    but how are you gonna survive without using it?? shops arent gna accept nething else.....
    .: Rufaida :.
    .:Fa Firroo Ila-llaah:.
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    Muwahhid Abdullah al-Muhajir's Avatar
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    Why not use other materials instead of paper?

    In my home country Bangladesh, the national Bangladesh Bank started distributing a strange, but smooth polyester-type material for money, around a few years back. It is still in use, though not as popular as paper money.
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    Contented! Mary Carol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anna2000uk
    but how are you gonna survive without using it?? shops arent gna accept nething else.....
    Neither will the Nigerian con men.
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    *bıɟɐɹɯıɯɐʇpɐʎızɯɯn* .: Anna :.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaxerian
    Why not use other materials instead of paper?

    In my home country Bangladesh, the national Bangladesh Bank started distributing a strange, but smooth polyester-type material for money, around a few years back. It is still in use, though not as popular as paper money.
    thats down to the government though... if they dont introduce summat like that, u cnt jst decide to start paying in ur own new currency cs ppl wont wanna know :eek2:
    .: Rufaida :.
    .:Fa Firroo Ila-llaah:.
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    Contented! Mary Carol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anna2000uk
    ...u cnt jst decide to start paying in ur own new currency cs ppl wont wanna know :eek2:
    Sure you can...if you're willing to spend the next few years as a "guest" in the prison system.
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    Ummah's Bro Jam's Avatar
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    Halaqah media do a very good audio tape/cd/download on the origins of Money,
    including, of course, an Islamic perspective:

    http://www.halaqah.com/shop2/catalog...products_id=59



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    Modernator MalcomBanned4?'s Avatar
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    "Usury is any unjustified increment between the value of the goods given and the countervalue of the goods received"
    What's the alternative..........gold? There's very little value in gold except it's exchange value for currency. It's not at all rare compared to other metals, can't make much with it (other than ornaments)
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    أنا مسلم AbuMubarak's Avatar
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    thats the whole trickology malcom

    when they stopped using gold and came up with this "monopoly money", economies became tools for the most wealthy to play with

    i remember one of the muslim countries tried pushing gold as a currency again

    but this paper money is chock-full of riba, and its haram, all of it
    .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
    نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
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    The Forgotten Shadow Kaiser's Avatar
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    Actually, the reason why they stopped using gold coins was, that gold being a soft metal deteriorates over time, meaning the if at first the coin weighs 100g then 10 years later it will weigh only 90g, due to friction and things like that which grind the coins, thus the coin loses value over time, not to mention, there simply isnt enough gold to replace the paper money, not to mention do you like have any idea how much those coins weigh, it would be uncomfterable to go around with a sack of gold coins.
    But no real worry cash currency as who is becoming obsolete, soon there wont be any material money at all, instead there will probably be electronic cards and hopefully a single universal currency.
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    أنا مسلم AbuMubarak's Avatar
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    kaiser, there may be some validity to that argument

    but i refuse to believe thats why they changed to paper money

    it used to be that paper money represented the amount of gold in the reserves, and that being the case, your point would have more validity

    but they stopped backing money up with gold, now its just, whatever the federal reserve says it is

    its a game being played on the people akhi
    .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
    نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
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    The Forgotten Shadow Kaiser's Avatar
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    Well, actually the money isnt of equal to the gold reserve like you said, its more like equal to the countrys total economic value or something like that, the gold is included in it and so are many other things.
    And the money backup thing also differs from country to country some currencys arent backed at all, they are tied instead to another larger currency, thats why in Europe were moving to the Euro one, the single currency has given a 10% boost to the economy, no more money loss in transfers from one currency to another.

    But I do believe that not far from now, currency will become obsolete and will be replaced with something entirely different.

    But to say, I dont think it would be at all to return back to the gold, since there isnt enough gold to replace the paper currency, not to mention something like that would cause such a devastating economic crash, that its basicly unthinkable.

    As you see things grow more complicated the more advanced they become, but thats just the price of progress.
    And one must always go towards advancement and progress, for staying stagnant is simply impossible, or at least as long as there is a single person on this planet with a free will that is, but last time I checked every single person had it.

    But let us never forget that, with any and all things there is a possibility and chance that they can be abused to some end and abused they will be that is the only thing that is certain, but this only leads us to the conclusion that humans arent perfect and never will be either, but even so they will strive towards being perfect, doing so is the only thing that we can do.
    Although this last part has been offtopic, and although the following doesnt apply to all every circumstance, Id like to add that: In the end we will regret most the things we didnt do, not the things we did do.
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    [Anti-zionists] Shades's Avatar
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    halaqa documentary on Money
    is a must hear- if ur intrested in exploring this topic

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    أنا مسلم AbuMubarak's Avatar
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    kaiser

    its going to be plastic, then a chip

    probably laid into our skins upon birth, and within that chip, all of the info the government could need

    your social security number, citizenship, medical information, bank account, and "spendable money"

    because with the threat of terrorism, its a necessary safety precaution for all of us
    .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
    نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
    دولة الإسلامية باقية






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    Quote Originally Posted by AbuMubarak
    though i agree with you, what are you gonna do?
    Here's some Muslims way of responding to something they don't like:

    http://www.ummah.net/forum/showthread.php?t=42368
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    أنا مسلم AbuMubarak's Avatar
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    you are becoming trifling, raven
    .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
    نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
    دولة الإسلامية باقية






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    fyi, you may need to adjust your satire meter.
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    **** sajid's Avatar
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    Why not use coins then?

    that does nto come under paper does it

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    Contented! Mary Carol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sajid
    Why not use coins then?

    that does nto come under paper does it
    Fine then.

    My next donation to Ummah.com will arrive in coins.

    Would you like pennies or twopence?
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    أنا مسلم AbuMubarak's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sajid
    Why not use coins then?

    that does nto come under paper does it
    gold or silver coins would be ok

    even paper money, if its backed up by gold or silver

    but the present system of money meaning anything they make it up to be is whats haram
    .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
    نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
    دولة الإسلامية باقية






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    Odan AhmedSyed's Avatar
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    In the end we will regret most the things we didnt do, not the things we did do.
    Mashallah....good speech btw.

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    أنا مسلم AbuMubarak's Avatar
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    Asalam 3laikum

    I have extracted the following clause for the messsage below, which says

    QUTOE
    In order to own a credit card and avoid paying Ribâ, you must make payment on purchases before the statement comes in, i.e. send the credit card company the check for payment as soon as you make the purchase. If you are too tempted and unable to purchase things without immediately paying for them (and thereby will be charged interest), don't use them or don't even have them. Fear your Lord!


    UNQUOTE

    Apparently i was once told by a learned man that even if you decide to pay the financial institute the amount you spent on your credit card by ensuring that you make all the outstanding payments ontime without paying any interest, you are still committing a sin

    When i inquired i was told that at the time of applying for a credit card we fill an application form and agree to their terms and conditon where they say that should you not pay on time you will be charged an interest of ...%. So in this way even if we dont pay interest we nevertheless witness or participate in this forbidden process.

    Do share with me your thoughts on this. Allah SWT knows the best.
    Fe Aman Allah

    Imran K. Malik




    RIBA (USURY AND INTEREST)


    Defining the Problem

    Riba (Usury) is of two major kinds: :

    1. Riba An-Nasia - Interest on lent money
    2. Riba Al-Fadl - Taking a superior thing of the same kind of goods by giving more of the same kind of goods of inferior quality, e.g, dates of superior quality for dates of inferior quality in great amounts.
    The definition of Interest, the literal meaning of interest or Al-Riba as it is used in the arabic language means to excess or increase. In the Islamic terminology interest means effortless profit or that profit which comes free from compensation or that extra earning obtained that is free of exchange. Riba has been described as a loan with the condition that the borrower will return to the lender more than and better than the quantity borrowed.

    As muslims, our main concern when it comes to financial transactions is to avoid Riba in any of its forms, despite the fact that the basic foundation of the world economics and finance today is that of riba and dealing in usury.

    The Prophet has foretold us of a time when the spread of riba would be so overwhelming that it would be extremely difficult for the Muslim to avoid it. This situation calls for muslims to be extra cautious before deciding on what money payment of financial methods to use in any personal or business transaction.

    To make sure that we are safe from Riba, we have to learn which transactions lead to it.

    Interest in Pre-Islamic Times

    HafizIbn hajr writes in his commentary of Sahih Bukhari (Fathul Bari), Vol. IV p.264:

    Imam Malik reports on the authority of Zaid Ibn Aslam that in the period of ignorance (pre-Islamic times) interest was charged according to the following scheme. One person had a right to the property of another person. It may have been a general right because of the amount lent or the price of something purchased or in any other form. A time was set when the claim would be settled. When the appointed time arrived the creditor would ask the debtor if he wanted to settle the claim or pay interest with an extension of time. If the claim was settled then there was no increase in the payment. Otherwise the debtor would increase the amount payable and the creditor would extend the period further.

    Textual Evidence
    Hadith - Sahih Bukhari, Volume 3, No. 299; Narrated 'Aun bin Abu Juhaifah, r.a.
    My father bought a slave who practised the profession of cupping, (My father broke the servants instruments of cupping). I asked my father why he had done so. He replied, "The Prophet forbade the acceptance of the price of a dog or blood, and also forbade the profession of tatooing, or getting tatooed and receiving or giving Riba (Usury), and cursed the picture makers."


    Hadith - Sahih Bukhari, 2.468, Narrated Samura bin Jundab, r.a.
    He speaks of in a dream related to the Prophet (SAW) that there is a river of blood and a man was in it, and another man was standing at its bank with stones in front of him, facing the man standing in the river. Whenever the man in the river wanted to come out , the other one threw a stone in his mouth and caused him to retreat back into his original position. The Prophet was told that these people in this river of blood were people who dealt in Riba (usury).


    The Noble Qur'an - Al-Baqarah 275-281
    275. Those who eat Ribâ (usury) will not stand (on the Day of Resurrection) except like the standing of a person beaten by Shaitân (Satan) leading him to insanity. That is because they say: "Trading is only like Ribâ (usury)," whereas Allâh has permitted trading and forbidden Ribâ (usury). So whosoever receives an admonition from his Lord and stops eating Ribâ (usury) shall not be punished for the past; his case is for Allâh (to judge); but whoever returns [to Ribâ (usury)], such are the dwellers of the Fire - they will abide therein.


    276. Allâh will destroy Ribâ (usury) and will give increase for Sadaqât (deeds of charity, alms, etc.) And Allâh likes not the disbelievers, sinners.

    277. Truly those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness, and perform As-Salât (Iqâmat-as-Salât), and give Zakât, they will have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

    278. O you who believe! Be afraid of Allâh and give up what remains (due to you) from Ribâ (usury) (from now onward), if you are (really) believers.

    279. And if you do not do it, then take a notice of war from Allâh and His Messenger but if you repent, you shall have your capital sums. Deal not unjustly (by asking more than your capital sums), and you shall not be dealt with unjustly (by receiving less than your capital sums).

    280. And if the debtor is in a hard time (has no money), then grant him time till it is easy for him to repay, but if you remit it by way of charity, that is better for you if you did but know.

    281. And be afraid of the Day when you shall be brought back to Allâh. Then every person shall be paid what he earned, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.

    The Noble Qur'an - Al-Imran 3:130
    O you who believe! Eat not Ribâ (usury) doubled and multiplied, but fear Allâh that you may be successful.


    Hadith - Mishkat-ul-Masabih
    The following three ahaadeeth have been taken from Mishkat-ul-Masabih under the section of interest and the English translation has been taken from its English version written by Al Hajj Moulana Fazl Karim (218-227 vol.11)


    • Hazrat Jabir r.a. has reported that the Messenger of Allah cursed the devourer of usury, its payer, its scribe and its two witnesses. He also said that they were equal (in sin).
    • Hazrat Abu Hurairah r.a. reported that the Prophet said : A time will certainly come over the people when none will remain who will not devour usury. If he does not devour it, its vapour will overtake him.
      [Ahmed,Abu Dawood,Nisai,Ibn Majah]

    • Hazrat Abu Hurairah radiyallahu anhu reported that the Messenger of Allah said: I came across some people in the night in which I was taken to the heavens. Their stomachs were like houses wherein there were serpents, which could be seen from the front of the stomachs. I asked :O Gabriel! Who are these people? He replied these are those who devoured usury. [Ahmed,Ibn Majah]
    Hadith - ??
    Hazrat Al-Khudri radiyallahu anhu reported that the Prophet said: Gold in exchange for gold, silver in exchange for silver, wheat in exchange for wheat, barley in exchange for barley, dates in exchange for dates, salt in exchange for salt is in the same category and (should be exchanged) hand to hand, so whoever adds or demands increase he has practiced usury. The giver and taker are the same.


    Conclusion

    After reading the above, it is apparent to us that interest is haram (prohibited). How could anybody even take the time out to think about a matter in which Allah has declared war on the user and his Beloved Prophet has cursed him? As sensible people we can understand that what our Creator has chosen for us is for our own prosperity and benefit.

    Islam has encouraged men to earn their own provision and provide for their families. The condition is that the earning has to be according to the Shari'ah. These rules can be found under the heading of trade in the books of jurisprudence. Interest is amongst those conditions which all dealings must be free from.

    Imam Abu Hanifah has ruled that if the measurement system (volumetric or in compounds) is the same and the two items are in the same category, then they should be sold in the same amount and direct not in credit otherwise interest will be found.

    Imam Shaf'ee says that if the items are valuable and could be considered food then there is the chance of interest.

    Imam Malik says that if the items are valuable and are edible then interest is a subject.

    Related Link:

    List of Islamic Banks & Financing

    • Giving and taking interest is Islamically unlawful.
    • A person who takes interest does not gain anything in reality but through the explanation of the Qur'an verse. In reality the money through Ribâ just goes to waste and the person does not even realize it, and a person who gives money in the path of Allah, in whatever form it may be, actually gains although in reality it may seem as though he is losing out.
    • Every person should take all necessary precautions in their financial and social dealings. If a person neglects in keeping a watchful eye on financial dealings, this negligence will slowly spread to other aspects of religion, having a very detrimental effect.
    • Interest is hazardous and should be abstained from in all manners. If anybody has a case they wish to solve then they should contact a knowledgeable person in this deen of Islam and present their problem as well as in all cases every individual should continue to seek Allah's forgiveness and guidance.
    • In order to own a credit card and avoid paying Ribâ, you must make payment on purchases before the statement comes in, i.e. send the credit card company the check for payment as soon as you make the purchase. If you are too tempted and unable to purchase things without immediately paying for them (and thereby will be charged interest), don't use them or don't even have them. Fear your Lord!
    • As a reminder to us all, Allah (SWT) has told us in the Qur'ân [2:279] if we don't give up interest ,we must take notice of a war from Allah!

      • Are you ready to go into battle against Allah (SWT)?
      • Will you and your army of feeble credit cards be sufficient to do battle with Allah(SWT)?
      • How can you justify doing something that's Haram?
    • Muslims who are in debt and do not want to participate in Ribâ, or those who need financial advice are encouraged to consult with Islamic Finance companies and banks.
    Remember... Allah, subhanahu wata'ala, sees everything we do!
    .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
    نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
    دولة الإسلامية باقية






  27. #27
    *judge no-one* juvenile_mullah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xaxerian
    Why not use other materials instead of paper?

    In my home country Bangladesh, the national Bangladesh Bank started distributing a strange, but smooth polyester-type material for money, around a few years back. It is still in use, though not as popular as paper money.
    POLYSTER MONEY IS THE SAME AS PAPER MONEY IN TERMS OF PRINICPAL.
    BUT MAYNE WEARS LESS EASILY.

    SAME WITH MODERN DAY COINS WHICH HAVE FIXED VALUE SET BY THE BANKS (EG STERLING, USD, TAKA, ETC)

    REAL GOLD AND SILVER COINS (OR OTHER VALUABLE METAL) COINS ARE DIFFERENT BUT AGAIN NO SHOPS WILL TAKE THEM THESE DAYS.
    Please Re-update your Signature

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    أنا مسلم AbuMubarak's Avatar
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    the problem is the way currency is figured, not whether its gold or plastic

    plastic should represent a set amount of gold reserves that the issuer has

    other than that, money is just a toy that capitalists manipulate to make more money
    .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
    نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
    دولة الإسلامية باقية






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    Lightbulb Bitcoin, Fiat, and Islam

    AA,

    Here is a link to a post on the bitcoin forum - They are discussing topics related to Islam that we Muslims also need to discuss. Unfortunately, it is a topic that is not discussed much in our community - the topic of "what is money in Islam?"

    I have my concerns about fiat money and how it is based on interest. Every time we use a government issued currency, we are using a system that is tied to riba. Without going too much into specifics: when US dollars are created by the federal reserve, they are loaned to smaller banks at interest (riba). These smaller banks then use fractional reserve banking, where they can lend 9 or 10 times the amount of money they actually have, and they also charge interest on top of all that. So already, we can see that the US dollar is based on debt and riba.

    I have found this document discussing Islam and fiat currency. How can such a system be halal? How come there are not more scholars denouncing such a system? Keep in mind, every time we use fiat money (I'm not talking about taking a loan from a bank), we are saying we acknowledge this interest based currency as legitimate, when in fact, we Muslims should know better.

    Ideally, the best system would be to have a currency that is based on gold and silver. However, any country or company that tries to make such a sound currency is met with force from the US government. Let's take a look at what happens when a country tries to make a gold based currency. Now I'm not saying Gadafi was a saint, but he was trying to bring back sound money that would be backed by gold. And this would have undermined the US dollar - and this was the main reason (I believe) the US intervened in Libya.
    There was also a company called e-gold: a company that issued digital currency that was backed by gold. Since this undermined the US dollar, the government over-regulated it, and shut it down. So if we try to start a company or bank that issued currency backed by gold or silver, it will be shut down. For the most part, we are being forced to use fiat currencies whether we like it or not.

    However, if our goal is just to avoid all the usury associated with fiat money when it is created, there might be a solution. I have recently been looking into bitcoin - a digital p2p currency. Though while bitcoin isn't backed by gold or silver, it does have the advantage of not being associated with usury/riba when bitcoins are created. Bitcoin is a currency that is not based on interest like fiat currencies that almost all countries use. Bitcoin works by a global network of computers that maintain a bitcoin ledger - no central authority is needed. Bitcoin is still in its infancy, but I'm very excited about the possibility of having an alternative currency that works worldwide and is not based on interest. Also, bitcoin removes the need for a bank to store and send your money - so no worry about a bank using your money to generate profit from interest for themselves. Also, it is not a simple task to just shut down the bitcoin network, as the only real way to do this would be to shut down the whole internet worldwide.

    If you are interested in learning more, check out www.weusecoins.com and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Introduction


    Please don't post your misconceptions about bitcoin without trying to understand what bitcoin really is. Please try to educate your self first. If you have any questions about bitcoin, I will do my best to answer them.

    sod6

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    Lightbulb Bitcoin, Fiat, and Islam

    I have posted an updated version to r/islam: http://www.reddit.com/r/islam/commen...iat_and_islam/

    AA,

    Here is a link to a post on the bitcoin forum - They are discussing topics related to Islam that we Muslims also need to discuss. Unfortunately, it is a topic that is not discussed much in our community - the topic of "what is money in Islam?"

    I have my concerns about fiat (government issued) money and how it is based on interest. Every time we use a government issued currency, we are using a system that is tied to riba. Without going too much into specifics: when US dollars are created by the federal reserve, they are loaned to smaller banks at interest (riba). These smaller banks then use fractional reserve banking, where they can lend 9 or 10 times the amount of money they actually have, and they also charge interest on top of all that. So already, we can see that the US dollar is based on debt and riba. Here is a video that does a good job of illustrating how this corrupt system works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFDe5kUUyT0#t=1133

    Back when the dollar was backed by gold, it could have been argued that using the dollar is halal, but that is no longer the case. And now the rest of the world's fiat currencies (even Islamic countries) are tied to the dollar.

    I have found this document discussing why Muslims should not use fiat currency. I have been wondering - why are there not more scholars denouncing such a corrupt system? do their governments pay them to not talk about the subject? or are they just ignorant on the matter? Keep in mind, every time we buy and sell with fiat money (I'm not talking about taking a loan from a bank), we are saying we acknowledge this interest based fiat currency system as legitimate, when in fact, we Muslims should know better.

    Abu Hurairah r.a. reported that the Prophet ﷺ said : A time will certainly come over the people when none will remain who will not devour usury. If he does not devour it, its vapour will overtake him. [Ahmed,Abu Dawood,Nisai,Ibn Majah]

    This hadith seems to be describing our very situation with fiat currencies. Also keep in mind that debt in Islam is ONLY supposed to be between 2 parties - fiat money turns debt into a form of money, which goes against how debt is supposed to work in Islam. Again, we Muslims should not be using fiat money!

    Ideally, the best system would be to have a currency that is based on gold and silver. However, any country or company that tries to make such a sound currency is met with force from the US government. Let's take a look at what happens when a country tries to make a gold based currency. Now I'm not saying Gadafi was a saint, but he was trying to bring back sound money that would be backed by gold. And this would have undermined the US dollar - and this was the main reason (I believe) the US intervened in Libya.
    There was also a company called e-gold: a company that issued digital currency that was backed by gold. Since this undermined the US dollar, the government over-regulated it, and shut it down. So if we try to start a company or bank that issued currency backed by gold or silver, it will be shut down. For the most part, we are being forced to use fiat currencies whether we like it or not.

    However, if our goal is just to avoid all the usury associated with fiat money when it is created, there might be a solution. I have recently been looking into bitcoin - a global digital decentralized p2p currency. Though while bitcoin isn't backed by gold or silver, it does have the advantage of not being associated with usury/riba when bitcoins are created. Bitcoin is a currency that is not based on interest like fiat currencies. Bitcoin works on a global network of computers that maintain a bitcoin ledger - no central authority (government or bank) is needed - it is like gold in this regard. Bitcoin is still in its infancy, but I'm very excited about the possibility of having an alternative currency that works worldwide and is not based on interest/riba. Also, bitcoin removes the need for a bank to store and send your money - so no worry about a bank using your money to generate profit from interest for themselves. Also, it is not a simple task to just shut down the bitcoin network, since there is no single point of failure - the only real way shutdown bitcoin would be to shut down the whole internet worldwide (a great way to bring down the economy too) - this is just not a viable option for bankers that want bitcoin to be shutdown.

    The downside to using bitcoin is its price volatility, though generally it keeps going up in price. Bitcoin's volatility is due to the market trying to figure out the actual price of such a new currency (almost 5 years old now), so as time goes on and more people use it, the price should become more stable. Keep in mind though, bitcoin's price isn't pegged to any fiat currency. Bitcoin does not need fiat in order to work. If/when fiat currencies collapse/fail/hyper-inflate, bitcoin will still be alive and well.

    I would recommend learning as much as possible about bitcoin before you convert some your fiat money into bitcoin - though I would recommend against putting all your fiat money into it because of the volatility. Also, if you haven't already changed some of your fiat money into gold and silver, you should do that too. We Muslims should be taking steps to try and rid ourselves of interest based fiat and look for alternatives. We should not remain ignorant on these matters.

    If you are interested in learning more, check out www.weusecoins.com and https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Introduction.
    If you want to know bitcoin in a lot more detail, you can read through the original bitcoin whitepaper. You can even get started with a small amount of bitcoin (for free) if you like: http://trybtc.com/

    Also, please don't post your misconceptions about bitcoin without trying to understand what bitcoin really is. Please try to educate yourself first. If you have any questions about bitcoin, I will do my best to answer them.

    sod6
    Last edited by sod6; 27-12-13 at 03:47 PM. Reason: adding link

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    Re: Bitcoin, Fiat, and Islam

    Any governments that uses fiat currencies in their economy is bound to collapse at some stage. It's just a get rich quick methods which are used to make the ones in power rich and print more money as they like. Just look at the US dollar it's hanging by a thin thread and needs to start another war ASAP to carry on its life support before it would eventually die out.

    If only countries were disciplined enough to let their economy grow slowly without interest. They are the ones who would succeed.

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    Re: Bitcoin, Fiat, and Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Abubakerr View Post
    Any governments that uses fiat currencies in their economy is bound to collapse at some stage. It's just a get rich quick methods which are used to make the ones in power rich and print more money as they like. Just look at the US dollar it's hanging by a thin thread and needs to start another war ASAP to carry on its life support before it would eventually die out.

    If only countries were disciplined enough to let their economy grow slowly without interest. They are the ones who would succeed.
    Fiat really does seem like a recipe for disaster. I don't think the best idea is to sit and hope for governments to change. After all, fiat gives governments more power and control over their populations. Fiat also allows government to print money out of thin air (which is what tends to happen when bogus wars need funding). I think change needs to come from the people - people have to choose to reject fiat, and I think bitcoin allows us to do just that.
    Last edited by sod6; 26-09-13 at 12:09 AM. Reason: spelling

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    Re: Prohibition of Using Paper-Money

    Some in this thread are asking what alternatives we have to fiat money (since fiat money is based on usury). Check out my post: www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?376630-Bitcoin-Fiat-and-Islam

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    SUFI HANAFI
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    Re: Bitcoin, Fiat, and Islam

    I don't trust electronic currency.

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    Re: Bitcoin, Fiat, and Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    I don't trust electronic currency.
    Why not?

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    Re: Bitcoin, Fiat, and Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by ibzy View Post
    Why not?
    Power failures.

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    Re: Bitcoin, Fiat, and Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    Power failures.
    True say, didnt think of that.
    But you could use solar panels to generate electrical energy

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    Re: Bitcoin, Fiat, and Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by ibzy View Post
    True say, didnt think of that.
    But you could use solar panels to generate electrical energy
    I don't have solar panels.

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    Re: Bitcoin, Fiat, and Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
    I don't have solar panels.
    Shall I get u some

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    Re: Bitcoin, Fiat, and Islam

    ...
    Last edited by Ibna' F; 27-09-13 at 06:52 AM.

 

 

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