other religions

[Tahiyah]

Islam is the religion of all the true prophets of the One Almighty God (Allah). Muslims believe that all the prophets were sent to their respective peoples from God (Allah). They all had the same mission and message - guiding people to the right path.
There are three revealed, monotheistic religions:

Islam
Christianity
Judaism

These all trace their origins back to Abraham, peace be upon him.
The prophets of these religions were directly descended from him - Moses, Jesus and others from Isaac, but Muhammad, peace be upon him, was from Ibrahim through his other son, Ismael. It was Prophet Abraham who had established the settlement which today is the city of Makkah, and with his son Ismael built the Ka'bah, which Muslims all over the world face when they pray.

Christians and Jews hold a special place in Islam. They are called the People of the Book (Ahl al-Kitab), since the original Torah and Gospel were also divinely revealed and they shared in the prophetic tradition. Islamic states have nearly always shown their religious minorities tolerance and respect and those communities flourished under Islamic rule. God says:

"...[Those who believe (in the message of Islam), and the Jews, the Sabaeans, and the Christians - all those who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and act righteously - no fear shall come upon them..." [5:69]

Setting up the Islamic state in Madinah, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)
further warned:

"Whoever oppresses any Dhimmi (non-Muslim citizen of the Islamic state), I shall be his prosecutor on the Day of Judgment."

In setting up the Islamic state, Prophet Muhammad made it inclusive of the Arabian Jews and Christians. Their persons, properties, churches and synagogues were protected, freedom of worship was guaranteed, and they controlled their own community affairs with their own civil and religious laws and courts. For most of the first century of the Islamic state, in fact, the majority of the citizens were Christians, enjoying peace and liberty such as they had not had even under Christian Rome or Byzantium.
The Jews, from the very beginning in Madinah, and later everywhere else, were lifted from the burden of being clients of individual Arab tribes to being citizens of the state, thus freeing them to focus on their Jewishness. When the Islamic state expanded outside Arabia the Jews of other lands were treated for the first time as liberated citizens. Judaism flourished as never before, with Jews even serving in Muslim armies and administrations while their culture bloomed in the arts, sciences, medicine and philosophy. This knowledge they transmitted to their brethren in the hostile climate of Christian Europe. Even Jewish mysticism originated under the influence of sufism and spread to northern Europe.

When Islam reached Persia the concept of People of the Book was extended to the Zoroastrians as well. Later, when the Muslims conquered parts of India and encountered Buddhists and Hindus, who appeared to worship idols, the question was referred to the ulema (council of scholars), who judged that even they could have the same protected status as the Jews and Christians, so long as they did not fight Islam and they paid the Jizyah tax.

[Tahiyah]

Tolerance


Freedom of belief is guaranteed in Islam. It should be very clear that Islam tolerates not only other faiths but even its enemies. This is stated clearly in the Qur'an:
"God forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them, for God loves those who are just." [60:8]

It is one function of Islamic law to protect the privileged status of minorities, and this is why non-Muslim places of worship have flourished all over the Islamic world. Islamic law also permits non-Muslim minorities to set up their own courts to implement family laws drawn up by the minorities themselves and to govern their own affairs.

History provides many examples of Muslim tolerance towards other faiths. When the great leader and second Caliph, Umar, entered Jerusalem in the year 634, Islam guaranteed freedom of worship to all religious communities in the city. In fact, so careful was Umar in setting an example for his people that he not only went to a church to pray, he prayed outside in the courtyard, lest his followers after his death be tempted to convert the church into a mosque.

Islam teaches that the closest to Allah and the most beloved of Allah are those who are the best in piety. Thus all people, male and female, and regardless of race, color, nationality or ethnicity, are considered and treated as equal before Allah and before the law. This concept of tolerance did not reach the West even in theory until the 18th century, and in practice not until the 20th century.

[Justcurious]

Originally posted by Tahiyah

Freedom of belief is guaranteed in Islam. It should be very clear that Islam tolerates not only other faiths but even its enemies.

Good to see a confirmation of this.

[eqdam]

asa
The Torah and Gospel are one of the controversial subjects of Qoran. (there are objections to wether these books have realy been send by Allah or simply out of respect Qoran refers to them.
when writting about them or quoting qoran, please provide deeper level too.

[Tahiyah]

A Muslim believes in all the revealed books which are mentioned in the Quran. They are: the Tawrat (Torah) of Musa (Moses), the Zabur (Psalms) of Dawud (David), the Injil (Gospel) of Isa (Jesus).
The Quran also mentions Suhuf-i-Ibrahim (Scrolls of Abraham).

Of the divine books, only the Quran exists in its original form, unchanged and unmixed. The Zabur, Tawrat and Injil are not available in their original language and form. These books have been distorted and changed, mixing divine words with those of human beings.

The Quran contains Allahs guidance for mankind in its original language, unchanged and undistorted. It restates in clear and unambigious language the message of Allah which the followers of earlier Prophets have lost. The message of the Quran is vaild for all times and conditions.






(Ghulam Sarwar, Islam, Beliefs and Teachings, The Muslim Educational Trust)

[fides]

Originally posted by Tahiyah
Tolerance


...When the great leader and second Caliph, Umar, entered Jerusalem in the year 634, Islam guaranteed freedom of worship to all religious communities in the city. In fact, so careful was Umar in setting an example for his people that he not only went to a church to pray, he prayed outside in the courtyard, lest his followers after his death be tempted to convert the church into a mosque...

Have you ever read the text of The Pact of Umar?

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html

[AbuMubarak]

yes, its an excellent read, fides

thanks for posting it

[fides]

Medieval Sourcebook: Pact of Umar, 7th Century

The Status of Non-Muslims Under Muslim Rule

We heard from 'Abd al-Rahman ibn Ghanam [died 78/697] as follows: When Umar ibn al-Khattab, may God be pleased with him, accorded a peace to the Christians of Syria, we wrote to him as follows:

In the name of God, the Merciful and Compassionate. This is a letter to the servant of God Umar [ibn al-Khattab], Commander of the Faithful, from the Christians of such-and-such a city. When you came against us, we asked you for safe-conduct (aman) for ourselves, our descendants, our property, and the people of our community, and we undertook the following obligations toward you:

We shall not build, in our cities or in their neighborhood, new monasteries, Churches, convents, or monks' cells, nor shall we repair, by day or by night, such of them as fall in ruins or are situated in the quarters of the Muslims.

We shall keep our gates wide open for passersby and travelers. We shall give board and lodging to all Muslims who pass our way for three days.

We shall not give shelter in our churches or in our dwellings to any spy, nor bide him from the Muslims.

We shall not teach the Qur'an to our children.

We shall not manifest our religion publicly nor convert anyone to it. We shall not prevent any of our kin from entering Islam if they wish it.

We shall show respect toward the Muslims, and we shall rise from our seats when they wish to sit.

We shall not seek to resemble the Muslims by imitating any of their garments, the qalansuwa, the turban, footwear, or the parting of the hair. We shall not speak as they do, nor shall we adopt their kunyas.

We shall not mount on saddles, nor shall we gird swords nor bear any kind of arms nor carry them on our- persons.

We shall not engrave Arabic inscriptions on our seals.

We shall not sell fermented drinks.

We shall clip the fronts of our heads.

We shall always dress in the same way wherever we may be, and we shall bind the zunar round our waists

We shall not display our crosses or our books in the roads or markets of the Muslims. We shall use only clappers in our churches very softly. We shall not raise our voices when following our dead. We shall not show lights on any of the roads of the Muslims or in their markets. We shall not bury our dead near the Muslims.

We shall not take slaves who have beenallotted to Muslims.

We shall not build houses overtopping the houses of the Muslims.

(When I brought the letter to Umar, may God be pleased with him, he added, "We shall not strike a Muslim.")

We accept these conditions for ourselves and for the people of our community, and in return we receive safe-conduct.

If we in any way violate these undertakings for which we ourselves stand surety, we forfeit our covenant [dhimma], and we become liable to the penalties for contumacy and sedition.

Umar ibn al-Khittab replied: Sign what they ask, but add two clauses and impose them in addition to those which they have undertaken. They are: "They shall not buy anyone made prisoner by the Muslims," and "Whoever strikes a Muslim with deliberate intent shall forfeit the protection of this pact."

from Al-Turtushi, Siraj al-Muluk, pp. 229-230.

[fides]

Originally posted by AbuMubarak
yes, its an excellent read, fides

thanks for posting it

DO you think that that is a fair agreement?

[AbuMubarak]

you think i have the nerve, smarts, or even cojones to disagree with a close companion of the messenger of Allah?

i am not you

[History]

Tahiyah,
Thank you for yor posts.
It is true that times of great peace and tolerance and exchange of ideas occured in Muslim history. And I wish they were more prevalent today--not only in Islamic society but in non-Mulsim ones as well.

And, yes, fides, the Pact of Umar and the "dhimmitude" had been used for evil purposes at times in Muslim lands as well and, at its core, set up a second-class status for "People of the Book" unacceptable to us in modern times. But, for its time, in Muslim lands where the tolerance and respect of Jews and Christians was the norm, it provided for a degree of participation in Muslim society unmatched in lands under Christian rule--where persecution of non-Christians was more the norm.

Respectfully,
History

[AbuMubarak]

i told you history was cool

go hist
go hist
go hist

[fides]

Originally posted by History
Tahiyah,
Thank you for yor posts.
It is true that times of great peace and tolerance and exchange of ideas occured in Muslim history. And I wish they were more prevalent today--not only in Islamic society but in non-Mulsim ones as well.

And, yes, fides, the Pact of Umar and the "dhimmitude" had been used for evil purposes at times in Muslim lands as well and, at its core, set up a second-class status for "People of the Book" unacceptable to us in modern times. But, for its time, in Muslim lands where the tolerance and respect of Jews and Christians was the norm, it provided for a degree of participation in Muslim society unmatched in lands under Christian rule--where persecution of non-Christians was more the norm.

Respectfully,
History

They problem here History, is that this is the "fairness" that would be in place today under Sharia law.

As AbuM said, who would have the nerve to change what the great leaders and scholars of the past have decreed? He won't disagree with the agreement, not because he is an enlightened man of the 21st century, but because he doesn't have the cajones to disagree with the patriarchs of Islam.

Islam has not moved forward beyond this thinking.

Maimonides - "..the Arabs have persecuted us severely, and passed baneful and discriminatory legislation against us...Never did a nation molest, degrade, debase, and hate us as much as they.."

[AbuMubarak]

Originally posted by fides
Maimonides - "..the Arabs have persecuted us severely, and passed baneful and discriminatory legislation against us...Never did a nation molest, degrade, debase, and hate us as much as they.."

A contemporary of Averroes, also born in Cordoba, Spain, Moses Maimonedes (1135-1204) came from a prominent Jewish family. In 1148, when the Almohads conquered Cordoba and life became difficult for the Jews, his family moved to Morrocco, then Palestine, finally settling in Fostat (old Cairo), Egypt. Trained both as a physician and rabbi, Maimonedes became such a good doctor that he was appointed royal physician to the King of Egypt. As rabbi he became nagid, or head of the Egyptian Jewish community in Fostat.

... His most famous work, generally regarded as one of the great philosophical works of the middle ages, Dalalat al-Ha'rin (Guide for the Perplexed, 1190), is an attempt to bring Judaism in line with Neo-Platonic Aristotleanism as taught by al-Farabi (Abu Nasr, 870-950) and Avicenna.

bio by Daniel Kolak in Lovers of Wisdom
(Wadsworth, 1997)



Maimonedes (Rabbi Moses ben Maimon) (1135-1204)


Jewish philosopher, physician and jurist, born in Spain. He codified Jewish law in Mishneh Torah (1180).
a note from a visitor to this site:
I believe Maimonides argued that the consumption of meat is necessary for health, ordained by G-d, and made acceptable by following the laws of shechita, or ritual slaughter. While Maimonides was definitely concerned about the unnecessary suffering of animals the notion that he generally advocated or practiced vegetarainism is probably incorrect.
Extracts from 'Guide for the Perplexed' as quoted in The Extended Circle by Jon Wynne-Tyson:
It should not be believed that all beings exist for the sake of the existence of man. On the contrary, all the other beings too have been intended for their own sakes and not for the sake of anything else.
[Regarding animals and their offspring], there is no difference between the pain of humans and the pain of other living beings, since the love and tenderness of the mother for the young are not produced by reasoning, but by feeling, and this faculty exists not only in humans but in most living beings.



Maimonides Prayer

"Exalted G-d - Before I begin the holy work of healing the creations of your hands, I place my entreaty before the throne of your glory that you grant strength of spirit and fortitude to faithfully execute my work. Let not desire for wealth or benefit blind me from seeing truth. Deem me worthy of seeing in the sufferer who seeks my advice - a person - neither rich nor poor. Friend or foe, good man or bad, of a man in distress, show me only the man. If doctors wiser than me seek to help me understand, grant me the desire to learn from them, for the knowledge of healing is boundless. But when fools deride me, give me fortitude! Let my love for my profession strengthen my resolve to withstand the derision even of men of high station. Illuminate the way for me, for any lapse in my knowledge can bring illness and death upon your creations. I beseech you, merciful and gracious G-d, strengthen me in body and soul, and instill within me a perfect spirit."



The Golden Age Of Spain

Before looking at the flourishing Jewish life of Spain, it is necessary to look briefly at the relationship between Jews and Muslims around that time. A large part of the Jewish diaspora had been controlled by Muslims, and although a large number of Jews accepted Islam, many stayed as "protected peoples", that is, at the same status as Christians. Early Arab conquests had brought together the Jewish people under one central political frame, which drew them closer together. For the next few centuries, the two religions lived quite well in co-existence. Any discriminatory legislation was either ignored or poorly enforced. There were isolated examples of violence, such as the massacre of the Jews in Granada in 1066, but this was a rare occurrence. Most discrimination against the Jews had also been aimed at Christians as well, sometimes as a forerunner.

By the 13th century, things took a turn for the worse as the Muslim world faced pressure from the Christian West and the Mongol East. Different dress codes were enforced, and outbreaks of violence against Jews became more common. Mellahs, similar to ghettos, were set up by the Muslims to keep the Jews safe, although the Jews felt more humiliated than aided.

We must also look at the life of the Jews in Spain before the Muslims arrived. Since Roman times, the Spanish Jews had faced terrible persecution, including voluntary conversions, forced baptisms and expulsions. As the Muslim world grew and started to threaten Spain, rumours were abound of the Jews willing to help the Muslims. Jews were regarded as traitors to the realm. Therefore, when the Muslims did attack Spain, the Jews not only encouraged them, but fought alongside them! The towns that were captured were administered by the Jews as well. Southern Spain did well from the Muslim presence. When the north of the country was engaged in heavy fighting, the south was flourishing in trade, agriculture and technology.

Seeking to separate themselves fully from Babylon, the Jews elected a rabbi for Cordoba around the year 950. But for the next few years the Jewish community became more unstable as the Cordoba caliphate started to collapse, and the protection started to dwindle. Although the Jews merited well from it, offering their services as scribes and the like to anyone who needed them, the political upheavel made their position a precarious one.

There were a few very influential Jews in the community, though. In 1038, a Jew called Samuel ha-Nagid led Muslim forces into battle. Samuel happened to be a great poet of the time. But at the same time, a few influential Jews were being deported or executed under mysterious circumstances.

The attacks on Granada in 1066, most famous to the English for the Norman Invasion, was indeed a very sour time, although some great thinkers survived the attack by fleeing, for example, Maimonedes fled to Morocco. In 1168, Maimonedes completed the work "Commentary on the Mishnah", and five years later, his brother died. Maimonedes became a physician, saying that to depend on Torah to earn one's keep was wrong. Physics was not an uncommon science to delve into at the time, particularly with the keen Arabic interest in the sciences. By 1185, Maimonedes had become the physician at Saladin's court, after having mastered medicine. He also became the head of the Jewish community in Cairo. The "Guide For the Perplexed", a text in which he explains the answers to questions for those who have studied Torah but are troubled by some of their findings, was finished in 1190. The Mishneh Torah, however, was the greater work, having been commented on for generations now. Maimonedes died on December 13 1204, and in Fostat there were three days of public mourning, as well as a fast in Jerusalem.

The Expulsion from Spain was, in a way, forewarned by the rise in violent attacks on the Jews. The flourishing culture set up there was dismantled in between the date of the expulsion (30 March 1492) and 31 July, by which point the Jews had either converted or fled. Of those who fled, many went to Portugal where, a few years later, they were all forced to baptise or die. Those who converted were known as marranos, which translates as swine. These New Christians tended to carry the religion on in secret, and the Inquisition had a tendency to follow them when they moved, even outside the country. A large number of Jews fled to Italy, although this was not really a satisfactory stopping-point because of the political climate. The safest place to go was to the world of Islam, such as Morocco and other parts of North Africa. Rules of separation there were strong too, but at least conversions were not enforced. Many fugitives fled to the Otooman Empire, particularly Solomon Ashkenazi and Solomon Aben-Ayish, who became influential in that society.

Those that were converted in 1497 in Portgual kept the faith for many years, while wearing the mantle of Christianity. However, while being New Christians, they had slightly more rights than the Jews of old did and hence travel, although restricted, was not as hard. Hence when a chance to emigrate came, it was eagerly taken. As a result, a large number of Jewish communities around the world are due to the rapid fleeing of these Jews. The Jews who are descended from these communities are known as Sephardi Jews.

Life in Eastern Europe
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Almohads


(l´mhdz) (KEY) , Berber Muslim dynasty that ruled Morocco and Spain in the 12th and 13th cent. It had its origins in the puritanical sect founded by Ibn Tumart, who stirred up (c.1120) the tribes of the Atlas Mts. area to purify Islam and oust the Almoravids. His successors, Abd al-Mumin, Yusuf II, and Yakub I, succeeded in conquering Morocco and Muslim Spain, and by 1174 the Almohads had completely displaced the Almoravids. With time the Almohads lost some of their fierce purifying zeal; Yakub had a rich court and was the patron of Averroës. Yakub defeated (1195) Alfonso VIII of Castile in the battle of Alarcos, but in 1212 the Almohad army was defeated, and Almohad power in Spain was destroyed by the victory of the Spanish and Portuguese at Navas de Tolosa. In Morocco they lost power to the Merinid dynasty, which took Marrakech in 1269. 1
See studies by Abd al-Wahid al Marrakushi 1881, repr. 1968) and R. Le Tourneau (1969).

[AbuMubarak]

so maimonedes learned from muslims, and was persecuted by muslims and fled to muslim land for refuge

sounds like the muslims treated him pretty good

anyway, bottom line, no i would not change anything according to shariah, and umar ibn alkhattab was of the greatest of muslims,

what you are failing to understand that muslims tolerate christians, because of what Allah says in quran, but that doesnt change the fact that they lie upon Allah, they lie upon jesus, and they lie upon muhammad, thus their teachings are not to be endorsed by the islamic state

[AbuMubarak]

the more i read this, the more i see that maimonedes was one ungrateful person, the man not only was safe under muslim law, but the boy was GETTIN PAID and was LIVIN LARGE

[fides]

Originally posted by AbuMubarak
so maimonedes learned from muslims, and was persecuted by muslims and fled to muslim land for refuge

sounds like the muslims treated him pretty good

anyway, bottom line, no i would not change anything according to shariah, and umar ibn alkhattab was of the greatest of muslims,

what you are failing to understand that muslims tolerate christians, because of what Allah says in quran, but that doesnt change the fact that they lie upon Allah, they lie upon jesus, and they lie upon muhammad, thus their teachings are not to be endorsed by the islamic state

And who would want to live as a second class citizen in a nation of people who think they are liers?

Would you live in a state that declared your religion a lie?

Research how the life of Averroes (ibn Rushd) ended, and what the fate of his great knowledge was.

[fides]

Iberia (Spain) was conquered in 710-716 AD by Arab tribes originating from northern, central and southern Arabia. Massive Berber and Arab immigration, and the colonization of the Iberian peninsula, followed the conquest. Most churches were converted into mosques. Although the conquest had been planned and conducted jointly with a strong faction of royal Iberian Christian dissidents, including a bishop, it proceeded as a classical jihad with massive pillages, enslavement, deportations and killings.

Toledo, which had first submitted to the Arabs in 711 or 712, revolted in 713. The town was punished by pillage and all the notables had their throats cut. In 730, the Cerdagne (in Septimania, near Barcelona) was ravaged and a bishop burned alive. In the regions under stable Islamic control, Jews and Christians were tolerated as dhimmis - like elsewhere in other Islamic lands - and could not build new churches or synagogues nor restore the old ones. Segregated in special quarters, they had to wear discriminatory clothing. Subjected to heavy taxes, the Christian peasantry formed a servile class attached to the Arab domains; many abandoned their land and fled to the towns. Harsh reprisals with mutilations and crucifixions* would sanction the Mozarab (Christian dhimmis) calls for help from the Christian kings. Moreover, if one dhimmi harmed a Muslim, the whole community would lose its status of protection, leaving it open to pillage, enslavement and arbitrary killing.

By the end of the eighth century, the rulers of North Africa and of Andalusia had introduced Malikism, one of the most rigorous schools of Islamic jurisprudence, and subsequently repressed the other Muslim schools of law. Three quarters of a century ago, at a time when political correctness was not dominating historical publication and discourse, Evariste Lévi-Provençal, the pre-eminent scholar of Andalusia, wrote: "The Muslim Andalusian state thus appears from its earliest origins as the defender and champion of a jealous orthodoxy, more and more ossified in a blind respect for a rigid doctrine, suspecting and condemning in advance the least effort of rational speculation."

The humiliating status imposed on the dhimmis and the confiscation of their land provoked many revolts, punished by massacres, as in Toledo (761, 784-86, 797). After another Toledan revolt in 806, seven hundred inhabitants were executed. Insurrections erupted in Saragossa from 781 to 881, Cordova (805), Merida (805-813, 828 and the following year, and later in 868), and yet again in Toledo (811-819); the insurgents were crucified, as prescribed in Qur’an 5:33*.

The revolt in Cordova of 818 was crushed by three days of massacres and pillage, with 300 notables crucified and 20 000 families expelled. Feuding was endemic in the Andalusian cities between the different sectors of the population: Arab and Berber colonizers, Iberian Muslim converts (Muwalladun) and Christian dhimmis (Mozarabs). There were rarely periods of peace in the Amirate of Cordova (756-912), nor later.

Al-Andalus represented the land of jihad par excellence. Every year, sometimes twice a year, raiding expeditions were sent to ravage the Christian Spanish kingdoms to the north, the Basque regions, or France and the Rhone valley, bringing back booty and slaves. Andalusian corsairs attacked and invaded along the Sicilian and Italian coasts, even as far as the Aegean Islands, looting and burning as they went. Thousands of people were deported to slavery in Andalusia, where the caliph kept a militia of tens of thousand of Christian slaves brought from all parts of Christian Europe (the Saqaliba), and a harem filled with captured Christian women. Society was sharply divided along ethnic and religious lines, with the Arab tribes at the top of the hierarchy, followed by the Berbers who were never recognized as equals, despite their Islamization; lower in the scale came the mullawadun converts and, at the very bottom, the dhimmi Christians and Jews.

The Andalusian Maliki jurist Ibn Abdun (d. 1134) offered these telling legal opinions regarding Jews and Christians in Seville around 1100 C.E.: "No…Jew or Christian may be allowed to wear the dress of an aristocrat, nor of a jurist, nor of a wealthy individual; on the contrary they must be detested and avoided. It is forbidden to [greet] them with the [expression], ‘Peace be upon you’. In effect, ‘Satan has gained possession of them, and caused them to forget God’s warning. They are the confederates of Satan’s party; Satan’s confederates will surely be the losers!’ (Qur’an 58:19 [modern Dawood translation]). A distinctive sign must be imposed upon them in order that they may be recognized and this will be for them a form of disgrace."

Ibn Abdun also forbade the selling of scientific books to dhimmis, under the pretext that they translated them and attributed them to their co-religionists and bishops. In fact, plagiarism is difficult to prove since whole Jewish and Christian libraries were looted and destroyed. Another prominent Andalusian jurist, Ibn Hazm of Cordoba (d. 1064), wrote that Allah has established the infidels’ ownership of their property merely to provide booty for Muslims.

In Granada, the Jewish viziers Samuel Ibn Naghrela and his son Joseph, who protected the Jewish community, were both assassinated between 1056 to 1066, followed by the annihilation of the Jewish population by the local Muslims. It is estimated that up to five thousand Jews perished in the pogrom by Muslims that accompanied the 1066 assassination. This figure equals or exceeds the number of Jews reportedly killed by the Crusaders during their pillage of the Rhineland, some thirty years later, at the outset of the First Crusade.

The Granada pogrom was likely to have been incited, in part, by the bitter anti-Jewish ode of Abu Ishaq, a well known Muslim jurist and poet of the times, who wrote: "Put them back where they belong and reduce them to the lowest of the low..turn your eyes to other [Muslim] countries and you will find the Jews there are outcast dogs...Do not consider it a breach of faith to kill them...They have violated our covenant with them so how can you be held guilty against the violators?"

The Muslim Berber Almohads in Spain and North Africa (1130-1232) wreaked enormous destruction on both the Jewish and Christian populations. This devastation- massacre, captivity, and forced conversion- was described by the Jewish chronicler Abraham Ibn Daud, and the poet Abraham Ibn Ezra. Suspicious of the sincerity of the Jewish converts to Islam, Muslim “inquisitors” (i.e., antedating their Christian Spanish counterparts by three centuries) removed the children from such families, placing them in the care of Muslim educators. Maimonides, the renowned philosopher and physician, experienced the Almohad persecutions, and had to flee Cordoba with his entire family in 1148, temporarily residing in Fez — disguised as a Muslim — before finding asylum in Fatimid Egypt.

Indeed, although Maimonides is frequently referred to as a paragon of Jewish achievement facilitated by the enlightened rule of Andalusia, his own words debunk this utopian view of the Islamic treatment of Jews: "..the Arabs have persecuted us severely, and passed baneful and discriminatory legislation against us...Never did a nation molest, degrade, debase, and hate us as much as they.."

[AbuMubarak]

Originally posted by fides
And who would want to live as a second class citizen in a nation of people who think they are liers?

Would you live in a state that declared your religion a lie?

Research how the life of Averroes (ibn Rushd) ended, and what the fate of his great knowledge was.

excuse me

i live in a country that is two seconds from arresting me for being a terrorist

i live in a country that is spending billions of dollars killing my brothers and sisters

i live in a country that has mistreated my people (black folk) since its inception

i live in a country that fathered "racial profiling"

i live in a country that has a book titled "strange fruit" documenting the lynchings that used to occur frequently

i live in a country that has more blacks behind bars than south africa had during its heyday of apartheid

i live in a country that my daughter can get pregnant at 13 and is legally protected from telling me if she has an abortion

i live in a country that celebrates, fourth of july, christmas, thanksgiving and halloween

so please tell me again about rough it is to live in a country that treats someone as second class

and now with the patriot act, i can now look forward to going down to third class

[AbuMubarak]

and regarding my religion being a lie

pat roberston, jerry falwell, and a host of other "acceptable national clergy" have publically derided islam as a religion of a violent pedophile with its worshippers doing nothing but the devils work

[sfvalley]

excuse me

i live in a country that is two seconds from arresting me for being a terrorist

i live in a country that is spending billions of dollars killing my brothers and sisters

i live in a country that has mistreated my people (black folk) since its inception

i live in a country that fathered "racial profiling"

i live in a country that has a book titled "strange fruit" documenting the lynchings that used to occur frequently

i live in a country that has more blacks behind bars than south africa had during its heyday of apartheid

i live in a country that my daughter can get pregnant at 13 and is legally protected from telling me if she has an abortion

i live in a country that celebrates, fourth of july, christmas, thanksgiving and halloween

so please tell me again about rough it is to live in a country that treats someone as second class

and now with the patriot act, i can now look forward to going down to third class


no excuse for you Abu Mubarak, but are you really 2 seconds from being arrested? In the last say 12 months, how many muslims here have been arrested for being terrrorists? not many. The reason why some have been arrested is why? Because muslims flew planes into buildings, have been thwarted in Seattle from blowing up buildings, have blown up the world trade center (partially) in 1993. That is not Americas fault but so called muslims fault. I would say that most, a very very almost statistically 100%, of muslims here are treated well.
Racial profiling, even your beloved umar did racial and religious profiling, so what gives with that statement. Maybe because you don't like it when it may affect you.

Because we celebrate 4th of july and thanksgiving we are being what? predjudiced? huh? can you give me more details on that one?

Patriot act, can you let me know how that has affected your life so far or any of your friends?

[Tovah]

Originally posted by AbuMubarak
and regarding my religion being a lie

pat roberston, jerry falwell, and a host of other "acceptable national clergy" have publically derided islam as a religion of a violent pedophile with its worshippers doing nothing but the devils work

So this and your post above this are justification of your view? I find that troubling. Oops- I see someone has already responded much more eloquently.

[AbuMubarak]

the patriot act is the pandoras box, its open

its only a matter of time before they get to me and any and every other muslim

the fbi has already said it was going to monitor every mosque in the usa, daniel pipes, the presidents advisor of muslims has publically stated that every muslim should be watched, that any muslim is a potential terrorist, it has accused the most moderate of muslim organizations to be terrorist supporters

what do i have to do? wait till i am in gitmo before i read the writing on the wall?

the patriot act has given them the ability to monitor me right now, down to my bank account activity, just because i MAY do something

[AbuMubarak]

Originally posted by Tovah
So this and your post above this are justification of your view? I find that troubling. Oops- I see someone has already responded much more eloquently.

tovah

minister louis farrakhan of the nation of islam and reverend jesse jackson of the rainbow referred to judaism as a gutter religion, hitler a great man, and nyc as jew york

and the entire jewish community was in uproar and to this day, they will not let it go

[AbuMubarak]

and these men were NOT advisors to the president of the united states

[Tovah]

Then there should be greater public statements from the Muslim community in the US condemning terrorist activities. There should be letters or communication to those Muslim groups that are terrorist in nature to cease and desist; and it should be made public.

[AbuMubarak]

what does that have to do with the presidents advisors calling islam a religion founded by a violent pedophile?

[Tovah]

Originally posted by AbuMubarak
tovah

minister louis farrakhan of the nation of islam and reverend jesse jackson of the rainbow referred to judaism as a gutter religion, hitler a great man, and nyc as jew york

and the entire jewish community was in uproar and to this day, they will not let it go

I have no issue with your railing against those who are biggoted. And I think that you should never let biggoted statements go no matter who they slander. I don't think that's what we're talking about here though.

Has Farrakhan ever retracted his statement about Judiasm?

[Tovah]

Originally posted by AbuMubarak
what does that have to do with the presidents advisors calling islam a religion founded by a violent pedophile?

They are just *&%^$(&$*^)^)%)'s. Which advisors are those?

[sfvalley]

So, Abu, when are you moving and to where? Again, you have these hypotheticals about how some legislation might someday be used against you. But in fact it isn't. You get treated well, but that is not good enough for you.
You tell us how great umar is, but in reality he is more of a father of racial profiling than anyone in the USA has ever been. You decieve yourself into thinking that there is some great conspiracy to get you and other muslims when in fact it is your brothers and (well maybe not) sisters who have brought forth the very, very very limited wrath of the American people on you. But of course we will always be the bad guys because why? because we are not muslims and therefore we can never do any good. Sorry, but I am not buying any of it.

[AbuMubarak]

why do i have to move, sfvalley?

why are you guys so interested in my address?

if anyone should move, you should go to another forum

if you dont like what i say here, then leaving is just a click away

[Tovah]

I didn't suggest that you move. Actually I have suggested that you get more involved in your community.

[AbuMubarak]

Originally posted by Tovah

Has Farrakhan ever retracted his statement about Judiasm?

who cares?

[Tovah]

Originally posted by AbuMubarak
who cares?

You're the one who brought it up. You said that the Jews still were upset. I was just wondering.
I don't think about Farrakhan at all.

[sfvalley]

Abu, you just said that you see the writing on the wall and it is only a matter of time. If you see the writing on the wall, what is it telling you? If you feel like you do not want to wait until you are in gitmo, then what do you plan on doing?

what the heck address are you talking about? are you paranoid or what?

[AbuMubarak]

but i was saying how a public figure, supported by the president, has spoken ill of our religion, and the country we are supposed to be protected by has remained silent

i am talking about a public figure who has basically called me and every muslim in america a criminal, was appointed by the president to lead the islamic response of america, even over the objections of the senate (or whoever was supposed to confirm him)

nor am i complaining about the rantings of these people, i accept the cards i have been dealt and formulate my ideologies based upon that

thus, when you guys start talking about feeling like second class citizens during the time of umar (which i seriously doubt any of you were even alive then) i am telling you that life in these united states is DEFINITELY of a second or third class status to a practicing muslim

so lets not get too sidetracked about farrakhan

[Tovah]

Abu, you brought Farrakhan up.

[AbuMubarak]

i brought him up because someone said that why do i feel justified that i feel america has relegated practicing muslims as second class citizens

and i told you how public figures have disrespected islam, and you went on to how that shouldnt mean anything

then when i asked you, if public figures dont have any impact, why did the jews persecute farrakhan and jackson?

now you want to ask me why i brought them up? isnt there a reason why this is a forum and not a chat room? its easy to refer to where you were

[Tovah]

But Farrakhan isn't Muslim - he's NOI.
What public figure are you talking about?
I'm looking back on the thread and I can't find where I said that public figures' disrespect of Islam shoudn't mean anything.

Am I missing something?
I think we were having different conversations because I don't recall what you are saying and I can't find it when I look back.

[AbuMubarak]

Originally posted by Tovah

I'm looking back on the thread and I can't find where I said that public figures' disrespect of Islam shoudn't mean anything.

Am I missing something?
I think we were having different conversations because I don't recall what you are saying and I can't find it when I look back.

Originally posted by AbuMubarak
and regarding my religion being a lie

pat roberston, jerry falwell, and a host of other "acceptable national clergy" have publically derided islam as a religion of a violent pedophile with its worshippers doing nothing but the devils work

Originally posted by Tovah
So this and your post above this are justification of your view? I find that troubling.

yes, my view of muslims being treated as second class citizens is by the wanton public disrespect of islam that is not performed by anyone else

however, i am not complaining, only explaining