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  1. #1
    Anti-irja ibnFalaax's Avatar
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    The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.




    It is not permissible to say about a dead kaffir, regardless of who it is, 'Rest in Peace'. The statement 'Rest in Peace' is an invocation and it is prohibited to make dua for a dead kaffir.

    Imam ibn Katheer (rahimullah) narrates in his tafseer:
    Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn Al-Musayyib said that his father Al-Musayyib said, "When Abu Talib was dying, the Prophet went to him and found Abu Jahl and Abdullah bin Abi Umayyah present. The Prophet said, "O uncle! Say, `La ilaha illa-llah,' a word concerning which I will plea for you with Allah, the Exalted and Most Honored. Abu Jahl and Abdullah bin Abi Umayyah said, `O Abu Talib! Would you leave the religion of Abdul-Muttalib' Abu Talib said, `Rather, I will remain on the religion of Abdul-Muttalib." The Prophet said, "I will invoke Allah for forgiveness for you, as long as I am not prohibited from doing so". Allah, the Most High, then revealed this ayah:

    مَا كَانَ لِلنَّبِيِّ وَالَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَن يَسْتَغْفِرُوا لِلْمُشْرِكِينَ وَلَوْ كَانُوا أُولِي قُرْبَىٰ مِن بَعْدِ مَا تَبَيَّنَ لَهُمْ أَنَّهُمْ أَصْحَابُ الْجَحِيمِ
    It is not for the Prophet and those who have believed to ask forgiveness for the polytheists, even if they were relatives, after it has become clear to them that they are companions of Hellfire. (9:113)

    Concerning Abu Talib, this ayah was revealed:

    إِنَّكَ لَا تَهْدِي مَنْ أَحْبَبْتَ وَلَٰكِنَّ اللَّهَ يَهْدِي مَن يَشَاءُ ۚ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ
    Indeed, [O Muhammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided. (28:56)

    Shaykh-ul Islam Muhammad ibn AbdulWahhab (rahimullah) explained this Verse excellently, in his “Sittatu Mawādhi’ Min As-Sīrah”:

    "Whoever realizes this with a good understanding, will realize that he (Abū Tālib) believed (in his heart) in Tawhīd, and called the people to it, and ridiculed the intellects of the mushrikīn; and he who realizes what love he (Abū Tālib) had for those who embraced Islām and abandoned shirk; and realizes how he spent his life, wealth, children, relatives- everything to help the Messenger ; and how he patiently bore the extreme pressure and open hostility (from the mushrikīn) - until the day he died. But - even after all this - he did not enter Islām, nor did he free himself from his former religion - Thus he did not become a Muslim. He used the excuse that this would be equivalent to insulting his father, ‘Abdul-Muttalib, and Hāshim (his grandfather), and others from amongst his Shuyūkh (elders). And since he was so close to the Prophet , and always aided him- the Prophet asked Allāh to forgive him; Thus Allāh immediately sent down the ayah:
    It is not for the Prophet and those who have believed to ask forgiveness for the polytheists, even if they were relatives, after it has become clear to them that they are companions of Hellfire. (9:113) "


    Thus, if it was forbidden to say it about Abu Talib, the one who supported this deen more than you and I, then what about the kaffir who is an enemy to Allah and His Messenger . And Allah, the Most High, informed us about the state of the dying kaffir in many ayat:

    وَلَوْ تَرَىٰ إِذْ يَتَوَفَّى الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا ۙ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَضْرِبُونَ وُجُوهَهُمْ وَأَدْبَارَهُمْ وَذُوقُوا عَذَابَ الْحَرِيقِ
    And if you could but see when the angels take the souls of those who disbelieved... They are striking their faces and their backs and [saying], "Taste the punishment of the Burning Fire. (8:50)

    فَكَيْفَ إِذَا تَوَفَّتْهُمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ يَضْرِبُونَ وُجُوهَهُمْ وَأَدْبَارَهُمْ
    Then how (will it be) when the angels will take their souls at death, striking their faces and their backs? (47:27)

    وَلَوْ تَرَىٰ إِذِ الظَّالِمُونَ فِي غَمَرَاتِ الْمَوْتِ وَالْمَلَائِكَةُ بَاسِطُو أَيْدِيهِمْ أَخْرِجُوا أَنفُسَكُمُ ۖ الْيَوْمَ تُجْزَوْنَ عَذَابَ الْهُونِ بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَقُولُونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ غَيْرَ الْحَقِّ وَكُنتُمْ عَنْ آيَاتِهِ تَسْتَكْبِرُونَ
    And if you could but see when the wrongdoers are in the overwhelming pangs of death while the angels extend their hands, [saying], "Discharge your souls! Today you will be awarded the punishment of [extreme] humiliation for what you used to say against Allah other than the truth and [that] you were, toward His verses, being arrogant." (6:93)

    And from the lengthy hadeeth about the Journey of the Soul narrated from al-Baraa ibn Azib by Imam Ahmad, Abu Dawud and Ibn Majah:

    "When a kaffir is about to leave the world and proceed to the next, angels with black faces come down to him from heaven with a coffin from the Hellfire and sit away from him as far as the eye can see. Then the angel of death comes and sits at his head and says, “O you evil soul, come out to the punishment of Allah and His anger.” Then it will disperse throughout the body and try to cling to every nerve and muscle, and so he draws it out like a branch with thorns being separated from a wet ball of wool. He the seizes it, and when he does so they do not leave it in his hand for an instant, but put it in that coffin and from it there comes forth a stench like the most offensive stench of a corpse found on the face of the earth. They then take it up and do not bring it past a company of angels without them cursing him and asking, “Who is this wicked soul?” to which they reply, “So and so," using the worst names he was called in the world..."

    As well, this prohibition of making dua for the kuffar extends to the munafiqeen as Allah has singled them out:

    اسْتَغْفِرْ لَهُمْ أَوْ لَا تَسْتَغْفِرْ لَهُمْ إِن تَسْتَغْفِرْ لَهُمْ سَبْعِينَ مَرَّةً فَلَن يَغْفِرَ اللَّهُ لَهُمْ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ كَفَرُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الْفَاسِقِينَ
    Ask forgiveness for them, [O Muhammad], or do not ask forgiveness for them. If you should ask forgiveness for them seventy times -
    never will Allah forgive them. That is because they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger, and Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people.
    (9:80)

    وَلَا تُصَلِّ عَلَىٰ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُم مَّاتَ أَبَدًا وَلَا تَقُمْ عَلَىٰ قَبْرِهِ ۖ إِنَّهُمْ كَفَرُوا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسُولِهِ وَمَاتُوا وَهُمْ فَاسِقُونَ
    And do not pray [the funeral prayer, O Muhammad], over any of them who has died - ever - or stand at his grave. Indeed, they disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger and died while they were defiantly disobedient. (9:84)

    Imam ibn Katheer rahimullah says,

    Allah commands His Messenger to disown the hypocrites, to abstain from praying the funeral prayer when any of them dies, from standing next to his grave to seek Allah's forgiveness for him, or to invoke Allah for his benefit. This is because hypocrites disbelieved in Allah and His Messenger and died as such. This ruling applies to all those who are known to be hypocrites, even though it was revealed about the specific case of `Abdullah bin Ubayy bin Salul, the chief hypocrite. Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn `Umar said, "When `Abdullah bin Ubayy died, his son, `Abdullah bin `Abdullah, came to the Messenger of Allah and asked him to give him his shirt to shroud his father in, and the Messenger did that. He also asked that the Prophet offer his father's funeral prayer, and Allah's Messenger stood up to offer the funeral prayer. `Umar took hold of the Prophet's robe and said, `O Allah's Messenger! Are you going to offer his funeral prayer even though your Lord has forbidden you to do so'. Allah's Messenger said, 'I have been given the choice, for Allah says: {Whether you ask forgiveness for them (hypocrites), or do not ask for forgiveness for them. Even though you ask for their forgiveness seventy times, Allah will not forgive them.} Verily, I will ask for forgiveness for him (more than seventy times) `Umar said, `He is a hypocrite!' So Allah's Messenger offered the funeral prayer and on that Allah revealed this Verse.

    And it should not be confused between saying condolences to the family of the deceased and the making of dua for the dead. The former is permitted while the latter is prohibited. If you wish, you can simply say, "My condolences for your loss." The Muslim is to have compassion as can be seen in the example of the Messenger of Allah when a funeral procession passed by him and he stood up. His companions informed him the deceased was a kaffir, and Rasulullah replied, "What it not a human soul." But this compassion should not overstep the limits set by Allah. Therefore, disregard what the people say or what is customary, but direct yourself to what will please Allah.

    وَأَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَالرَّسُولَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُرْحَمُونَ
    And obey Allah and the Messenger that you may obtain mercy. (3:132)

    Wa Billahi Tawfeeq
    Last edited by ibnFalaax; 20-09-12 at 11:59 PM.
    Imam AbdulLatif ibn AbdurRahman rahimullah said, "It is not possible for someone to realize Tawheed and act upon it, and yet not be hostile against the mushrikeen. So anyone who isn't hostile against the mushrikeen, then it can't be said that he acts upon Tawheed, nor that he realizes it." [ad-Durar as-Saniyyah 8/167]

  2. #41
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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Umm-Aaliyah View Post
    Logic-tech.. Nobody is arrogant in the belief just certain insha'allah
    I understand that many do not realise they are being arrogant, but it's not nice to say that someone who is not Muslim is not resting in peace (Metaphorically or not) and that you shouldn't say it to a non-muslim.

    That to me is very arrogant.
    Quote Originally Posted by nonameakhi View Post

    I hate using analogies, but you go to your GP when you are ill, you accept his advice and medication whilst not knowing the full details
    This isn't quite the same analogy. You know that a GP is a professional and a GPs job is to follow the evidence and proof as present in Medical journals.

    You take the medicine knowing it will make you better because you have faith in your GP
    Like I said, the GPs don't give the medication on blind faith either. They have researched and know the effects that the medications have. These proofs are also there for the average laymen to investigate into as well. Also this isn't just one GP who does it, but the whole scientific community recommend it too.

    I have seen what my creator has done and cant fault it, so what I cant see I accept based on what I have seen
    I never said I have problems with those who believe.

    I just have some of the arrogance that some of the believers have.
    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    again i get your point here. but like i said thir proof is their faith. they dont need anything else.
    YEs, but what makes their proof any different to a Hindu and his scriptures?

    so if you ask for proof theyll post a quran verse and that has as much validity than anything you can measure in a lab.
    A lot of what the Qu'ran says is not measurable.
    Quote Originally Posted by Strive View Post
    How do you think the universe started?
    This is not a relevant question.

    How do you think Allah started existing?
    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    for non muslims, especially ones that belive in evolution questions like this is a waste of time.

    theres more scientific proof that the big bang is correct than of a devine begining
    This.

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salam94 View Post
    Get outta here. If you believe that, why do you enjoy being on a Muslim forum ? Makes no sense. If you were considering Islam it would be fine, but it baffles me as to why you spend a lot of time here.
    People can be sympathetic to Muslims without agreeing with everything they say or believe.

    If more people spent time trying to see things from the other person's point of view, there would be a lot less fighting in this world.
    And to speak out; though I detest the sect
    Of Epicurus for their manners vile,
    Yet what is true I may not well reject.

    The Infinity of Worlds by Henry More (1614-87)

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Rest in peace is a fairly stupid phrase. I don't think I have ever used it in person.

    'Rest in peace'?

    There is no peace in death.

    A far better phrase would be 'I'm sorry for your loss' or 'my condolences'.

    But I suppose one will be resting in pieces as the body decomposes.

  5. #44
    Odan sweetstar's Avatar
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    Is anyone actually going to answer my question or are u all just going to argue over nothing?

    I asked what am I suppose to say if the kaffir is a family member who has died? Now I'm not talking about giving respect to someone else's loved one to which op replied I give my condolences too. Then how do you suppose I give my condolences to myself? Any hoo in august and july I lost both my nan's and since. None of them are muslims as I am the only muslim in my family I said to my nan b4 she was buried rip nan I'll miss you. Now you're going to tell me I supposedly made some unaware haram or sin!? So can op plz answer my question plz explain what is one suppose to say when ones own family members die? My mum is a kaffur for example when it's her turn what do I say!? Op!? Plz suggest tyvm

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweetstar View Post
    Is anyone actually going to answer my question or are u all just going to argue over nothing?

    I asked what am I suppose to say if the kaffir is a family member who has died? Now I'm not talking about giving respect to someone else's loved one to which op replied I give my condolences too. Then how do you suppose I give my condolences to myself? Any hoo in august and july I lost both my nan's and since. None of them are muslims as I am the only muslim in my family I said to my nan b4 she was buried rip nan I'll miss you. Now you're going to tell me I supposedly made some unaware haram or sin!? So can op plz answer my question plz explain what is one suppose to say when ones own family members die? My mum is a kaffur for example when it's her turn what do I say!? Op!? Plz suggest tyvm
    I wouldn't get too worked up over it.

    It's just a phrase.

    Or, having failed that, you could always write in the letters 'have a fruitful decomposition as putrefactive bacteria lyse you in pieces!'

    edit: just joking. don't take offence from this. it is merely a statement of fact.
    Last edited by oz99; 22-09-12 at 01:31 AM.

  7. #46
    Odan sweetstar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oz99 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sweetstar View Post
    Is anyone actually going to answer my question or are u all just going to argue over nothing?

    I asked what am I suppose to say if the kaffir is a family member who has died? Now I'm not talking about giving respect to someone else's loved one to which op replied I give my condolences too. Then how do you suppose I give my condolences to myself? Any hoo in august and july I lost both my nan's and since. None of them are muslims as I am the only muslim in my family I said to my nan b4 she was buried rip nan I'll miss you. Now you're going to tell me I supposedly made some unaware haram or sin!? So can op plz answer my question plz explain what is one suppose to say when ones own family members die? My mum is a kaffur for example when it's her turn what do I say!? Op!? Plz suggest tyvm
    I wouldn't get too worked up over it.

    It's just a phrase.

    Or, having failed that, you could always write in the letters 'have a fruitful decomposition as putrefactive bacteria lyse you in pieces!'

    edit: just joking. don't take offence from this. it is merely a statement of fact.

    You're definately





    Anyhoo it's annoying when ppl pass out fatwa's with out no real forbidding of certain things
    Last edited by sweetstar; 22-09-12 at 01:46 AM.

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweetstar View Post
    Is anyone actually going to answer my question or are u all just going to argue over nothing?

    I asked what am I suppose to say if the kaffir is a family member who has died? Now I'm not talking about giving respect to someone else's loved one to which op replied I give my condolences too. Then how do you suppose I give my condolences to myself? Any hoo in august and july I lost both my nan's and since. None of them are muslims as I am the only muslim in my family I said to my nan b4 she was buried rip nan I'll miss you. Now you're going to tell me I supposedly made some unaware haram or sin!? So can op plz answer my question plz explain what is one suppose to say when ones own family members die? My mum is a kaffur for example when it's her turn what do I say!? Op!? Plz suggest tyvm
    salaam Sister

    if your relative has not died yet, you should urge them to say the shahada, but not too much for only Allah can guide; let it be known to them what they face if they die as a non-muslim and what they would get if they say the shada and die

    you really should tell them about Islam long before it comes to that so your message is not suddenly out of the blue

    if they are dead allready, then you can feel sorry for them and even cry out of loosing them to the hell-fire but you should not pray for them for there is no more hope for them

    but anytime before their death, you can pray for their salvation, i.e that Allah makes them muslim and takes them from this earth

    so to a relative who's dying, you can say, may Allah make you see the truth of Islam, make you a believer and take you to heaven, but just to say RIP could be misleading; they may think there is a chance non-muslims can rest in peace as well
    Last edited by acacia; 22-09-12 at 03:18 AM.

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweetstar View Post
    You're definately





    Anyhoo it's annoying when ppl pass out fatwa's with out no real forbidding of certain things
    not sure if praying for dead non-muslims is totally forbidden, but i have seen that all the Islamic scholars agree that we dont pray for them; if someone does pray for them, that will not be accepted

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salam94 View Post
    Get outta here. If you believe that, why do you enjoy being on a Muslim forum ? Makes no sense. If you were considering Islam it would be fine, but it baffles me as to why you spend a lot of time here.
    continue to be baffled then sir.

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    continue to be baffled then sir.
    will do...

    now excuse me, I am going to join a weight loss forum even though I'm already skinny.

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Sounds like freedom of speech is being put to use in full force on this thread, having full liberty to say things about dead people of other religions. Not that people of other religions care what Muslims thinks of them. Just saying.

    Now I really wonder why anyone should have a problem with freedom of speech?
    Not knowing what one doesn't know will lead to difficulty

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    What happens if you rest someone before they are dead ?

    cofin.jpg
    "Woe be to the ignorant person once for not learning. Woe be to the scholar a thousand times for not practicing." - Al-Ghazali

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vishnu View Post
    Sounds like freedom of speech is being put to use in full force on this thread, having full liberty to say things about dead people of other religions. Not that people of other religions care what Muslims thinks of them. Just saying.

    Now I really wonder why anyone should have a problem with freedom of speech?
    I haven't read the whole thread, but what's in the thread?

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by oz99 View Post
    I haven't read the whole thread, but what's in the thread?
    I could see that religion legitimizes some Muslims to say, with impunity, that people of other religions go to hell and that they don't even deserve a RIP.

    This does sound very much like freedom of expression legitimizing some to make insulting videos and caricatures targeting Islam and its prophet.

    I am not judging or justifying anything here, just an honest observation.
    Not knowing what one doesn't know will lead to difficulty

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Assalamu alaikum. Wow, some of these posts are very harsh.

    The offensive thing to non-muslims (as told to me by non-muslims) is the loss of respect, not the actual words spoken. Refusing to say RIP to a grieving person about their loved one makes them feel you have no regard for life or sympathy for their pain. I never say "Rest In Peace" when a non-muslim dies, but I do tell their loved ones "I am sorry for your loss" or words to that effect, and try to offer any support I am able to give.

    We are not allowed to make supplications for the dead who rejected their Creator, and "RIP" is a type of supplication. "RIP" automatically assumes one is in heaven/peace/tranquility after death, which Allah tells us is not true. One can be supporting to a hurting person without going against their own fundamental beliefs. It is required upon Muslims to be just with people and treat them kindly. It is very possible to do both and also completely avoid the un-Islamic habit of saying "Rest in peace". Who knows? Maybe the kindness of a Muslim will make them curious about Islam and their own inevitable death; it might be a gate to their heart inshaAllah.

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by sweetstar View Post
    So what can we say if someone we know is a kaffir and they pass away?
    Glad tidings of the Fire of Jahannam (If your walking by their Grave) ...

    unfortunately, I don't recall the reference to the Ahadith,

    Last edited by Saif-Uddin; 22-09-12 at 01:39 PM.
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    [Sahih Al-Bukhari, Vol. 8, Hadith no. 627]

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Nice Try Vish,

    this is about Following Islam, not someone opinions ...

    the Brother Created the Thread and backed it up with the Glorious Quran to warn Muslims,

    if you don't like it, then please don't make irrelevant posts ...

    regards
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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saif-Uddin View Post
    Nice Try Vish,

    this is about Following Islam, not someone opinions ...

    the Brother Created the Thread and backed it up with the Glorious Quran to warn Muslims,

    if you don't like it, then please don't make irrelevant posts ...

    regards



    Sometimes it angers me when Vishnu and silures make comments like that when they know they're on a Muslim forum . Makes no sense.

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vishnu View Post
    Sounds like freedom of speech is being put to use in full force on this thread, having full liberty to say things about dead people of other religions. Not that people of other religions care what Muslims thinks of them. Just saying.

    Now I really wonder why anyone should have a problem with freedom of speech?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vishnu View Post
    I could see that religion legitimizes some Muslims to say, with impunity, that people of other religions go to hell and that they don't even deserve a RIP.

    This does sound very much like freedom of expression legitimizing some to make insulting videos and caricatures targeting Islam and its prophet.

    I am not judging or justifying anything here, just an honest observation.
    You persistently feel the need to tell us your worthless opinion about our religion when you certainly know not a single soul on the face of this Earth cares what you think about Islam let alone anyone on this forum. Why are you even here? And how dare you equate the belief that a person who dies as a kaffir will enter hellfire - every religion that believes in a Hereafter considers only people of their religion as being the ones to enter Paradise with the exclusion of everyone else - to the so-called freedom of speech that allows insults to Islam and the Messenger of Allah . It is not an 'honest observation', but rather the evil you conceal inside yourself.

    As for us Muslims, we reject your ideals and your beliefs, we reject your democracy, your courts and rulings, we reject your freedom of speech and all your forms of disbelief and associating partners with Allah. We disbelieve in you and what you worship besides Allah. And between us and you there is enmity and hatred until you believe in Allah alone. Let it be clearly known.

    So please shut up and stop spewing your garbage rhetoric.
    Last edited by ibnFalaax; 22-09-12 at 01:37 PM.
    Imam AbdulLatif ibn AbdurRahman rahimullah said, "It is not possible for someone to realize Tawheed and act upon it, and yet not be hostile against the mushrikeen. So anyone who isn't hostile against the mushrikeen, then it can't be said that he acts upon Tawheed, nor that he realizes it." [ad-Durar as-Saniyyah 8/167]

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salam94 View Post



    Sometimes it angers me when Vishnu and silures make comments like that when they know they're on a Muslim forum . Makes no sense.
    can you quote what i said that angered you so much?

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    can you quote what i said that angered you so much?
    you said there is more proof about the big bang or whatever than there is of a Supreme Being. I don't think any of the Muslims on here tolerate comments like that, especially since you said it like it was a fact. You should stay out of Islamic threads in my opinion. Since you don't have any urge to become Muslim (do you?) , like i said, i dont understand why you stay. Not trying to be mean, but just stop with comments like that.

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vishnu View Post
    I could see that religion legitimizes some Muslims to say, with impunity, that people of other religions go to hell and that they don't even deserve a RIP.

    This does sound very much like freedom of expression legitimizing some to make insulting videos and caricatures targeting Islam and its prophet.

    I am not judging or justifying anything here, just an honest observation.

    You are wrong in your understanding here cause the views being expressed here are those integral to our religion, i.e, we dont pray for non-muslims after their deaths as nothing can be done about them once they died on desbelief; it's just sticking to one of our beliefs and not meant to insult or disrespect them, thus to say that for this it is ok for non-muslims to insult our religion and the very heart of it too, is taking your sensitivities too far

    the above principle [not to pray for non-muslims after their deaths] makes sense too in that context and there is nothing offensive about it, for example when a christian will tell us we's go to hell for not taking Jesus as God, we dont feel offended for we understand that is what they believe

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    i posted these posts in regard to someone saying theres no proof islam is real or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    scientific evidence that anyone will be resting in peace or not is not available.
    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    i getr your point but remember we on a religious forum. their evidance is from their quran and hadith. all they need is faith in them books to prove anything mentioned inside them.

    so i dont really get your point in asking tbh? you cant provide any kind of argument that will trump thier faith in god so why bother? and why would you want to anyway?
    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    again i get your point here. but like i said thir proof is their faith. they dont need anything else.

    so if you ask for proof theyll post a quran verse and that has as much validity than anything you can measure in a lab.
    then strive posted this to the same person:

    Quote Originally Posted by Strive View Post
    How do you think the universe started?
    so i posted this because i knew where he was going with his statment. ive been here a while now and heard it before.

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    for non muslims, especially ones that belive in evolution questions like this is a waste of time.

    theres more scientific proof that the big bang is correct than of a devine begining
    Quote Originally Posted by Salam94 View Post
    you said there is more proof about the big bang or whatever than there is of a Supreme Being. I don't think any of the Muslims on here tolerate comments like that, especially since you said it like it was a fact. You should stay out of Islamic threads in my opinion. Since you don't have any urge to become Muslim (do you?) , like i said, i dont understand why you stay. Not trying to be mean, but just stop with comments like that.
    my comment was to show how a atheist or certain non muslim thinks when asked that question, because there is more proof of sciencetific theories than there is of religios based proof (that can be seen in a lab, like i posted in a earlier post above).

    now, it makes sense to me but maybe you missed it? tbh i dont care really.

    i dont respond well to the passive aggressive questioning style mate.

    and ill comment any way i please thats not against forum rules, ok? ive been doing allright without your help for the last few years, sure ill do ok after your gone.

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post

    and ill comment any way i please thats not against forum rules, ok? ive been doing allright without your help for the last few years, sure ill do ok after your gone.

    nah, i think ill stay, especially because i can benefit from some of the Islamic threads on here while you just come on here without reason.

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    my comment was to show how a atheist or certain non muslim thinks when asked that question, because there is more proof of sciencetific theories than there is of religios based proof (that can be seen in a lab, like i posted in a earlier post above).

    now, it makes sense to me but maybe you missed it? tbh i dont care really.

    i dont respond well to the passive aggressive questioning style mate.

    and ill comment any way i please thats not against forum rules, ok? ive been doing allright without your help for the last few years, sure ill do ok after your gone.
    "Belief" is a choice.

    I was raised in multi-religious family, I used to doubt the authority of religions, and I reverted to Islam. I choose to accept it.

    But from what I see from this thread, it's really sad and no wonder many nonmuslims just "meh" to Islam.

    Where is the sympathy and compassion???????

    Even Rasulullah (pbuh) himself came to give food and comfort to an ill Jewish lady who always throw trash and craps in his home terrace.

    Even when the dead has left the world, and whether he's at peace or not after his death, but NOT with his family and close ones. It's not about for the dead -- but for the people he loves, people who lost him and grieved.

    I don't always agree with SILURES -- but his words can be a reality check. Sometimes we're just too attached to a doctrine, and we shut ourselves from reality (and simple humanity).

    As Rasulullah (pbuh) said, Islam is about the good manners
    Last edited by Ariadne; 22-09-12 at 08:19 PM.

    "Place the light in my soul and make light abundant for me.
    Make me light and grant me light. (Sahih Muslim)

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by ibn Nasroon View Post
    This couldn't be more far from the truth. Abd' al-Muttalib was a mushrik as were the Quraish. Where do you get the idea that they were upon Hanafiyya? You mentioned Muhammad b. Is'haq's work, can you please cite where he said that his family were upon Hanafiya?
    Assalam Alaykum,
    Here is the source:

    When Hanatah entered Mecca, he asked about its chief and master. He was told: it is 'Abdul Muttalib Ibn Hashim. He saw him and thus delivered the message. 'Abdul Muttalib said: "By Allah! We do not intend to fight. Really we cannot afford it. This is the Sacred House of Allah and His Khalil (friend) Ibrahim (Peace be upon him), only Him Alone can protect it if He wills to."
    When 'Abdul Muttalib returned home he told the Qurai****es about what happened between him and Abraha and ordered them to evacuate Mecca and move to the mountains. Then, he accompanied with some men stood holding the ring of the Ka 'bah' s door invoking Allah and seeking His Aid against Abraha and his troops.
    From the Life of Muhammad-Ibn Ishaq (Chapter- The History of the Elephant and the Story of the Intercalations)


    The Hanafiya are mentioned in the Tafsir of Ibn Kathir also:

    ...he [Abdul-Muttalib] took hold of the metal ring of the door of the Ka`bah, and along with a number of Quraysh, he called upon Allah to give them victory over Abrahah and his army. `Abdul-Muttalib said, while hanging on to the ring of the Ka`bah's door, "There is no matter more important to any man right now than the defense of his livestock and property. So, O my Lord! Defend Your property. Their cross and their cunning will not be victorious over your cunning by the time morning comes.''
    Nufayl, however, was at the top of the mountain with the Quraysh and the Arabs of the Hijaz observing the wrath which Allah had caused to descend on the people of the elephant. Nufayl then began to say, "Where will they flee when the One True God is the Pursuer For Al-Ashram is defeated and not the victor."
    http://abdurrahman.org/qurantafseer/...105.59203.html

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    In my opinion it's better to not make any assumptions about a person's ultimate destination or their status in the eyes of Allah swt. What a person labels themselves does not neccessarily determine their status in the eye's of Allah swt who see's the inner reality of everything and is not concerned with labels.

    I also think that we should not be arrogant enough to assume that our dua is in any way comparible to the dua of the Prophets, and we should pray and make dua for our fellow human beings (regardless of how they label themselves) primarily because it softens the heart, reduces arrogance and assists us along our own path towards perfection, inshaAllah.

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salam94 View Post
    nah, i think ill stay, especially because i can benefit from some of the Islamic threads on here while you just come on here without reason.
    without reason? just because i havent told you wh im here doesnt mean i dont have a reason. your very ignorant in your manner to me purely because of one post i made thast you didnt understand. i wont lose any sleep over it though.

    Quote Originally Posted by arachnide View Post
    "Belief" is a choice.

    I was raised in multi-religious family, I used to doubt the authority of religions, and I reverted to Islam. I choose to accept it.

    But from what I see from this thread, it's really sad and no wonder many nonmuslims just "meh" to Islam.

    Where is the sympathy and compassion???????

    Even Rasulullah (pbuh) himself came to give food and comfort to an ill Jewish lady who always throw trash and craps in his home terrace.

    Even when the dead has left the world, and whether he's at peace or not after his death, but NOT with his family and close ones. It's not about for the dead -- but for the people he loves, people who lost him and grieved.

    I don't always agree with SILURES -- but his words can be a reality check. Sometimes we're just too attached to a doctrine, and we shut ourselves from reality (and simple humanity).

    As Rasulullah (pbuh) said, Islam is about the good manners
    i allways try to be fair in my posts. to see both sides of whats happening and just comment on what i see is right. if it follows islams teachings or goes against them ill post what i belive is right. but im not to big to admit when im wrong. ive apologised to many people on here if ive been wrong or got the wrong end of the stick. same as i do in real life. if im wrong ill admit it.

    some muslims speak and behave towards non muslims basically the same as the KKK behave towards blacks. subtitute the word kuffar, kafair or non muslim for black in many peoples posts and see what i mean. that kind of behaviour and lauguage just wouldnt be accepeted. and rightly so.

    but when its the kuffar being spoken about some belive its ok to just say anything they want, no matter how insulting it is.

    then there are some here that keep me coming back. the example they set in my opinion is something i really admire. ive made no secret i came to this site in 2008 to confirm my belife that all muslims wanted was to kill me and my familiy (yeah i know, crazy lol) i came to realise i was the crazy one lol.

    so whatever muslims new or old think of me here, im the same guy in real life as i am on here. my views on islam have gone through a 180 degree and basically take me or leave me. this crap every couple of weeks off noobs saying "why you here" " you got no right to be here because you havent converted" and the rest of the rubbish they say is starting to get boring. maybe i should change my sig and put this in it? save a bit of time and save me writing this lot out again

    to the OP. sorry for hijacking your thread but needed a rant.

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by ibnFalaax View Post
    You persistently feel the need to tell us your worthless opinion about our religion when you certainly know not a single soul on the face of this Earth cares what you think about Islam let alone anyone on this forum.
    He doesn't 'certainly know' it because it isn't true, as I care about what he thinks. Rest assured there are people on this forum who agree with what he had to say here.

    Quote Originally Posted by oz99 View Post
    Rest in peace is a fairly stupid phrase. I don't think I have ever used it in person.

    'Rest in peace'?

    There is no peace in death.
    I suspect you were addressing the Muslims, but I think of death as bringing absolute peace. No pain, no worries, no sense of self, time, or surroundings. What can be more peaceful than that?
    Last edited by DonSmith; 22-09-12 at 10:54 PM.

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    without reason? just because i havent told you wh im here doesnt mean i dont have a reason. your very ignorant in your manner to me purely because of one post i made thast you didnt understand. i wont lose any sleep over it though.



    i allways try to be fair in my posts. to see both sides of whats happening and just comment on what i see is right. if it follows islams teachings or goes against them ill post what i belive is right. but im not to big to admit when im wrong. ive apologised to many people on here if ive been wrong or got the wrong end of the stick. same as i do in real life. if im wrong ill admit it.

    some muslims speak and behave towards non muslims basically the same as the KKK behave towards blacks. subtitute the word kuffar, kafair or non muslim for black in many peoples posts and see what i mean. that kind of behaviour and lauguage just wouldnt be accepeted. and rightly so.

    but when its the kuffar being spoken about some belive its ok to just say anything they want, no matter how insulting it is.

    then there are some here that keep me coming back. the example they set in my opinion is something i really admire. ive made no secret i came to this site in 2008 to confirm my belife that all muslims wanted was to kill me and my familiy (yeah i know, crazy lol) i came to realise i was the crazy one lol.

    so whatever muslims new or old think of me here, im the same guy in real life as i am on here. my views on islam have gone through a 180 degree and basically take me or leave me. this crap every couple of weeks off noobs saying "why you here" " you got no right to be here because you havent converted" and the rest of the rubbish they say is starting to get boring. maybe i should change my sig and put this in it? save a bit of time and save me writing this lot out again

    to the OP. sorry for hijacking your thread but needed a rant.
    well, this site isn't purely for Muslims, i understand that. But when you post things that go against Islam, on a primarily MUSLIM forum, it really makes me wonder...

    But, oh well. Your choice, i think i've read that you have no interest in becoming Muslim, so why you participate in Islamic threads i have no idea.

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salam94 View Post
    well, this site isn't purely for Muslims, i understand that. But when you post things that go against Islam, on a primarily MUSLIM forum, it really makes me wonder...

    But, oh well. Your choice, i think i've read that you have no interest in becoming Muslim, so why you participate in Islamic threads i have no idea.
    like i said, you didnt understand what i wrote. i wasnt stateing a fact, i was saying what certain non muslims believe so no point in using the "how did the universe begin" analogy because the athiest can point to scientific studies that proves his pov, yet a person of faith can only point to their holy book as proof. i know that book is enough proof for them because they belive in that faith. so any analogy involing faith will not convince a non muslim who prefers science.

    and im not a muslim, im someone stating my pov. if everything i posted was for islam id be a muslim.

    ive wrote it as simply as i can, if you still dont get it, your problem.

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salam94 View Post
    well, this site isn't purely for Muslims, i understand that. But when you post things that go against Islam, on a primarily MUSLIM forum, it really makes me wonder...

    But, oh well. Your choice, i think i've read that you have no interest in becoming Muslim, so why you participate in Islamic threads i have no idea.
    He doesn't have to be interested in becoming Muslim to have a discussion about Islamic topics. There are a lot of concepts he might agree with that are within Islam, hence his contribution and there are some concepts he doesn't agree with. At the end of the day, you said it yourself, this isn't a forum just for Muslims. SILURES has been for a quite a while and knows how things play on here.

    If you read the first few posts, he was stating what a Muslim would say opposing the big bang, ie if it is in the Quran and Sunnah then that suffices for us, we have Islam to answer it. Then he goes on to say the point of view of an Atheist, that they think that scientific proof, in a lab, of something being able to test and measure is more worthy than that of a divine being.
    Last edited by Islam.07; 22-09-12 at 10:19 PM.

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post
    like i said, you didnt understand what i wrote. i wasnt stateing a fact, i was saying what certain non muslims believe so no point in using the "how did the universe begin" analogy because the athiest can point to scientific studies that proves his pov, yet a person of faith can only point to their holy book as proof. i know that book is enough proof for them because they belive in that faith. so any analogy involing faith will not convince a non muslim who prefers science.

    and im not a muslim, im someone stating my pov. if everything i posted was for islam id be a muslim.

    ive wrote it as simply as i can, if you still dont get it, your problem.
    ok, your right, i misread your post. i apologize.

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Islam.07 View Post
    He doesn't have to be interested in becoming Muslim to have a discussion about Islamic topics. There are a lot of concepts he might agree with that are within Islam, hence his contribution and there are some concepts he doesn't agree with. At the end of the day, you said it yourself, this isn't a forum just for Muslims. SILURES has been for a quite a while and knows how things play on here.

    If you read the first few posts, he was stating what a Muslim would say opposing the big bang, ie if it is in the Quran and Sunnah then that suffices for us, we have Islam to answer it. Then he goes on to say the point of view of an Atheist, that they think that scientific proof, in a lab, of something being able to test and measure is more worthy than that of a divine being.

    yes, your right.

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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salam94 View Post
    ok, your right, i misread your post. i apologize.
    ok, thanks for the apology.

    i appreciate it.

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  37. #76
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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by SILURES View Post

    some muslims speak and behave towards non muslims basically the same as the KKK behave towards blacks. subtitute the word kuffar, kafair or non muslim for black in many peoples posts and see what i mean. that kind of behaviour and lauguage just wouldnt be accepeted. and rightly so.

    but when its the kuffar being spoken about some belive its ok to just say anything they want, no matter how insulting it is.

    then there are some here that keep me coming back. the example they set in my opinion is something i really admire. ive made no secret i came to this site in 2008 to confirm my belife that all muslims wanted was to kill me and my familiy (yeah i know, crazy lol) i came to realise i was the crazy one lol.

    so whatever muslims new or old think of me here, im the same guy in real life as i am on here. my views on islam have gone through a 180 degree and basically take me or leave me. this crap every couple of weeks off noobs saying "why you here" " you got no right to be here because you havent converted" and the rest of the rubbish they say is starting to get boring. maybe i should change my sig and put this in it? save a bit of time and save me writing this lot out again

    to the OP. sorry for hijacking your thread but needed a rant.
    As I steadfast to "belief is a choice", no one has right to tell you "now that you're here, you must convert". And were I that nonmuslim herself (and I almost chose to be a pagan), I'd be further, not closer to, from Islam if someone tells me that right off the bat.

    Let's see in Rasulullah and Umar ibn Khattab example.

    When Rasulullah (pbuh) did this thing to the Jewish lady, he didn't say a word about "convert". The lady was so moved by his kindness and regrets her past rudeness. By the time Rasulullah (pbuh) leaves her house, she became a muslim.

    Because his action speaks louder than words.

    In the time of Umar ibn Khattab, a Christian widow complained that the governor wanted to take over her house to build a masjid. The governor offered her a good price and house replacement, she refused and said the house has a sentimental value to her. It's where she married and lived until her husband died. Now the governor insisted her to give up her house with the hard way.

    Umar ibn Khattab listened to this woman's complaint , and he even sent a warning to the governor "fear Allah and steadfast to justice in this world". The governor realized his mistake, even apologized to the woman and he said he canceled the masjid establishment right away.

    The lady was so moved by the justice Umar ibn Khattab stands for her, and she converted to Islam before anyone tells her to do so.

    Why? Because action speaks louder than words. This is the strongest da'wah you can give. Not bashing and jeering someone who has different opinions than you. Not by thinking that you're holier than anyone else who don't share the same faith with you.

    But if we see what the muslims now are doing, it's totally the opposite.

    Even in Islam saying "RIP" is a no, it doesn't eliminate a simple humanity that we should honor, give comfort, and show kindness to the people who grieved for the loss.

    Whether the dead now is happy or not, peaceful or not, it's his business with God. When we die, we'll be alone too. It's his family who still lives, who we should give concern to.
    Last edited by Ariadne; 23-09-12 at 08:29 AM.

    "Place the light in my soul and make light abundant for me.
    Make me light and grant me light. (Sahih Muslim)

  38. #77
    Kaffir SILURES's Avatar
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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by arachnide View Post
    As I steadfast to "belief is a choice", no one has right to tell you "now that you're here, you must convert". And were I that nonmuslim herself (and I almost chose to be a pagan), I'd be further, not closer to, from Islam if someone tells me that right off the bat.

    Let's see in Rasulullah and Umar ibn Khattab example.

    When Rasulullah (pbuh) did this thing to the Jewish lady, he didn't say a word about "convert". The lady was so moved by his kindness and regrets her past rudeness. By the time Rasulullah (pbuh) leaves her house, she became a muslim.

    Because his action speaks louder than words.

    In the time of Umar ibn Khattab, a Christian widow complained that the governor wanted to take over her house to build a masjid. The governor offered her a good price and house replacement, she refused and said the house has a sentimental value to her. It's where she married and lived until her husband died. Now the governor insisted her to give up her house with the hard way.

    Umar ibn Khattab listened to this woman's complaint , and he even sent a warning to the governor "fear Allah and steadfast to justice in this world". The governor realized his mistake, even apologized to the woman and he said he canceled the masjid establishment right away.

    The lady was so moved by the justice Umar ibn Khattab stands for her, and she converted to Islam before anyone tells her to do so.

    Why? Because action speaks louder than words. This is the strongest da'wah you can give. Not bashing and jeering someone who has different opinions than you. Not by thinking that you're holier than anyone else who don't share the same faith with you.

    But if we see what the muslims now are doing, it's totally the opposite.

    Even in Islam saying "RIP" is a no, it doesn't eliminate a simple humanity that we should honor, give comfort, and show kindness to the people who grieved for the loss.

    Whether the dead now is happy or not, peaceful or not, it's his business with God. When we die, we'll be alone too. It's his family who still lives, who we should give concern to.
    good post. posts like this get ignored and the more firebrand ones get pushed to the top. pity really.

    *****education is important but big biceps are importanter*****

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  39. #78
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    Re: The dead kaffir is certainly not resting in peace, so don't say RIP.

    Quote Originally Posted by DonSmith View Post
    I suspect you were addressing the Muslims, but I think of death as bringing absolute peace. No pain, no worries, no sense of self, time, or surroundings. What can be more peaceful than that?
    Poor Dear, you're in for a horrendous shock - dying with disbelief in you Creator is going to bring the extreme opposite of what you are vainly conjecturing.


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