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  1. #1
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    Concubines in Islam.

    Salaam. Excuse me for the long post but I feel some background on this will help. I don't mean to offend anyone but I'm going to be bluntly honest and hopefully someone will be able to help me reach something that feels more than just a superficial understanding that deep down I'm not comfortable with.

    Background.
    I have always identified myself as a Muslim and throughout my teenage years ( I am now approaching twenty) I undoubtedly have run into people, situations and scenarios that have made me question my religion, but despite this I've managed to reconcile these issues with my faith. At times, despite my personal opinion on an issue, I acknowledge it is what Islam says and I just have to accept it.
    A few years ago I came across the concept of concubines in Islam and instead of facing the issue, I put it to the back of my mind, but recently being on this 'journey' to strengthen and consolidate my faith I have been looking into matters that may be considered more 'fragile'.

    The present.
    Despite wanting to I am unable to reconcile the concept of concubines with my faith. Despite my hardest efforts, I can only somewhat understand the purpose of concubines.
    Something's I don't understand.
    -I don't understand why having sex and then a possible pregnancy is what would free a slave, why not just free her on the spot?
    - It is pointed out if these women were not used in this way they would be killed instead, but why not just keep them as maids? Why not just free them without killing them?
    -It's often pointed out that other faiths just killed their prisoners, but the wrongs of another religious group doesn't justify something that to my mind only seems slightly better.

    Main concerns
    - Another reason is because 'women have needs', but what if the woman doesn't wish to be a concubine? I have been told that the woman would have had no right to refuse. If a woman can not refuse sexual intercourse then you are forcing yourself onto an unwilling woman, you are raping her.
    - Am I right in believing if she is Muslim she can't be used as a concubine? So if she said the shahada, that would automatically stop her from becoming a concubine (regardless of whether it was genuine or not?)

    - I keep being told slavery is abolished but that is besides the point and seems like a cop out, if there was a proper Islamic Shariah state would concubines be allowed in this day and age?


    Please confirm
    I was looking on a very well known Muslim question and answer website and they were addressing the question of concubines. The individual answering the question also stated the wife of a man would be unable to protest or be displeased if her husband were to take a concubine. In effect her opinion was of no importance and the man was free to have intercourse with as many concubines as he wished. If this is true, then I don't understand how a woman can state in her marriage contract she has the right to divorce if a man takes another wife, but can not object to concubines.

    I have many more questions and I understand that this is a very long query and for that I apologise but this is something that I feel I have to ignore and have it chip at and weaken my faith, or tackle it head on and solve how shaky my faith feels when I'm approached with these subjects. I hope someone can answer some of the questions, if not all and I hope you don't mind my follow up questions.

    Thank you!

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Aaaah the concubines as scarce as hens teeth.

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Man, I haven't come across any modern day Muslims that keep concubines. I don't think keeping concubines is made mandatory to anyone in Islam. So if you happen to win over a few non Muslim women in a war, free them like you want - you won't then be doing anything unislamic.
    Not knowing what one doesn't know will lead to difficulty

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vishnu View Post
    Man, I haven't come across any modern day Muslims that keep concubines. I don't think keeping concubines is made mandatory to anyone in Islam. So if you happen to win over a few non Muslim women in a war, free them like you want - you won't then be doing anything unislamic.
    I can keep them if I want.

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    This topic, the hijab/Niqab and the beard must have 1000's of threads on here by now.

    Does the forum search function not work or do people truly believe that their thread on these topics are unique and have never been discussed before.

    It is also worrying that people even think like the OP. "we listen and we obey" this is the sunnah of Sahabah. Today we barely even listen and what we hear we question.

    May Allah guide us.
    By Him in whose Hand is the Soul of Muhammad, there is not one from the nations of the Jews and the Christians who hears about me and then dies while he has not believed in what I have been sent with except that he will be one of the companions of the Fire”. (Reported by Muslim in kitaabul Imaan)
    www.treasureofthescholars.wordpress.com

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by mokko View Post
    Today, people listen AND question. They use their brain, it is normal. This is also how science progresses. Questions, questions, and questions. The feeling of guilt must be on those who are not able to answer, not on the one who asked the question.
    This is the way a kaffir would view things. I assume you aren't Muslim since it isn't stated in your profile nor is this an Islamic way to think.

    The Quran makes lawful the women that "your right-hand possesses" with words to that effect. Muslims believe the Quran is the word of Allah ta'ala therefore there is absolutely nothing wrong with this.

    I'll explain it simply: If we found a Saheeh Hadith that stated the sky was red or indeed if there was a Quran Ayah that stated the sky is red. Then despite what we see with our eyes that the sky is in fact blue we would consider the sky to be Red. Because the fault is with our eyes and our perception as these two things can be mistaken, wrong or faulty. Whereas the words of Allah ta'ala and his Rasul(SAW) can never be wrong or faulty.

    Obviously you have to be Muslim to understand this but that is the bottomline for a believer.
    By Him in whose Hand is the Soul of Muhammad, there is not one from the nations of the Jews and the Christians who hears about me and then dies while he has not believed in what I have been sent with except that he will be one of the companions of the Fire”. (Reported by Muslim in kitaabul Imaan)
    www.treasureofthescholars.wordpress.com

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by mokko View Post
    You seem to use your own intuitions about justice to assess religious commands. This practice is not consensual among Muslims.

    Indeed, some theologians usually cut your issue at the root, by affirming that what is just is determined by what Allah commands. For example, if Allah allows rape in some cases, then rape in those cases is just, by definition of justice. The website "Islam Q&A" seems to be run by theologians of this kind.
    thats a blatant lie. There is no rape in islam, nor does the Islam-qa.com website say that Allah ta ala allows rape under any circumstance.

    you two smell like a couple of trolls.
    "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

    The Prophet said:

    "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

    muslim

    Narrated 'Abdullah:

    The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


    "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

    By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

    [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]


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    Re: Concubines in Islam.



    well, the search function would have answered your question so instead of going in deep, ill just put it in point form:

    1) regarding the rape issue, just look at the sunnah and the way the sahabah treated their concubines. the prophet pbuh offered one the option of being free or staying a concubine, and she willingly chose to stay a concubine. this speaks volumes.

    2)the whole purpose of making a person a concubine is so that they can see islam. the enemy has always distorted islam so that when they fight it, they reallly think they are doing a good thing. seeing is beliveing in may cases. they will be able to see the muslims and how they really are.

    3) the ayah allowing sex with a concubine in in the same ayah about the permissability of sex with your wife in some parts of the quran, or one ayah after (ex suratul nur) my point is that nowhere in the ayah is rape mentioned. the ayah mentions one can have relations with their wives or whome their right hand posseses. people however have jumpped the gun saying this and that nd comming to fast conclusions.

    4) forget about her needs. what happens when you put a man and a woman together in such and enviroment over time? an attraction or attachment will develop. if Allah dident leagalize relations with concubines many muslim men would have fallen into zina, but Allah is mercifull and made it easy for us and allowed us to have concubines.

    did laterempires abuse the rights of a concubine? yes. thats why we folllow the example of the prophet pbuh and the sahabah.

    as for concubines in todays time, its still valid but there is no khilafa at the moment waging jihad on the kuffar so for the moment, no concubines.
    And the (faithful) slaves of the Most Gracious (Allâh) are those who walk on the earth in humility and sedateness, and when the foolish address them (with bad words) they reply back with mild words of gentleness. (25:63)

    O You who believe! Shall I guide you to a trade that will save you from a painful torment? (10) That you believe in Allâh and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW),and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allâh with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know! (11) (If you do so) He will forgive you your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow, and pleasant dwellings in Adn (Edn) Paradise; that is indeed the great success. (12)

    JazakAllah khair for the duas but i would prefer duas for shahadah instead.

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Yah just give it to them, where they come from

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    also just in general, there is no harm in asking questions on matters.

    the prophet pbuh said that the cure to ignorance is asking questions. these are the issues of today so its normal that people might have misunderstanding or doubts because of the huge media warfare going on against islam at the moment.

    but Allah guides who he wills and falsehood is no substitute for truth.
    And the (faithful) slaves of the Most Gracious (Allâh) are those who walk on the earth in humility and sedateness, and when the foolish address them (with bad words) they reply back with mild words of gentleness. (25:63)

    O You who believe! Shall I guide you to a trade that will save you from a painful torment? (10) That you believe in Allâh and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW),and that you strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allâh with your wealth and your lives, that will be better for you, if you but know! (11) (If you do so) He will forgive you your sins, and admit you into Gardens under which rivers flow, and pleasant dwellings in Adn (Edn) Paradise; that is indeed the great success. (12)

    JazakAllah khair for the duas but i would prefer duas for shahadah instead.

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.



    dear Sister, i have answered a very similar question in the recent past; it is rather elaborate so i'll post up some it's excerpts here for you inshAllah; happy reading! :

    Question:

    Hello

    I've been reading about the right of Muslim men to have sex with their female slaves.

    How does a Muslim man acquire slaves? What is the definition of a slave for a Muslim? Does a prostitute count as a slave? Does a kidnapped woman count as a slave or is it solely the booty of war?

    How do Muslim men and women feel about a man's right to have sex with his female slaves in this day and age?

    Can the female slave refuse the advances?

    I'm struggling to understand how a religious scripture can incorporate this kind of material.


    Answer:

    This issue has to be considered in context and deeply sister to be understood properly; also any pre-concieved ideas of right and wrong should be put aside

    Islam basically says that a person who dies as a non-muslim will burn in hell for all eternity sister [apart from those who the Message of islam has not reached; such people will be put to a test on the Day of Judgement] so this is why ALlah has allowed slavery in order to rehabilitate prisoners and give them a excellent chance of becoming muslim; the slavery system in islam is just that, a rehabilitation system, in which the slave enjoys unprecedented human rights and is virtually treated as part of the family, thereby being exposed to a most beutifull message of islam in action, hence many slaves have ended up accepting islam, and overwhelmingly, being a slave was a temporary condition

    only a prisoner of war can become a slave and a muslim aquires a slave when the war booty is shared out by the muslim commander

    Islam only fights those who are hell bent on destroying islam and allways inclines towards peace with those who want peace, hence the prisoners of war are only from the former category of people; Islam allows the women and children of the enemy who loses in battle to be captured too and enslaved, and this is a great mercy of ALlah in that the women and children of sworn enemies of the Truth will probably end up being the same if not put through a rehabilitation system; it's a bit like, 'social services' intervening where the women and chidlren in a family are likely to be harmed, but in a war context ofcourse

    Another wisdom of slavery maybe, for there to be a strong detterent from waging war on one's creator and His messenger [saw]

    Islam is needed for there to be peace and Justice on earth and for mankind to be saved from the most horrendous punishment imaginable, and warring against it aims to wipe this only 'saviour' out, thus such a strong detterent against it is understandable in this context

    the Muslm male is allowed to have sex with the slave women as the slave basically becomes a property of her Master and the Master is allowed to derive pleasure from his property

    I know all this sounds very harsh sister, but if we look upon this as a punishment of ALlah on those who warred against Allah and His messenger [saw], then it is more understandable in this context; basically the principle here is, if your not going to be a slave of ALlah, then taste the humiliation of being a slave of man, with all the benifits attached too as mentioned above

    all of this however only pertains to the past as now slavery is prohibbited by treaties


    [here the questioner acuses Islam of condoning rape]


    Answer:

    you asked a question sister, but jumped the gun before you received the answer:

    http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/do...r_slave_girls_

    I think this part [in the the above link]:

    The Islamic critic would also appeal to the following narration, which states:

    Jami At-Tirmidhi 1137 - Jabir bin Abdullah narrated: "We practiced Azl while the Qur'an was being revealed." . . . Malik bin Anas said: "The permission of the free woman is to be requested for Azl (i.e. coitus interruptus), while the slave woman's permission need not be requested."

    He would argue that this narration shows that one could engage in coitus interruptus without the permission of his slave girl, which means that he could rape her.

    The first and most important thing to note is that the Prophet (peace be upon him) didn't say that, Imam Maalik said that. The Prophet (peace be upon him) is our final authority.

    Imam Maalik's reasoning was that the free woman has the right to have a child. The man doesn't have the right to forbid his wife from having a child, thus he must ask her permission before doing azl. However, if the Muslim gets his slave girl pregnant, she seizes to become his slave girl and he must marry her. The Muslim therefore, doesn't have to ask for her permission to do azl when they make consensual sex.

    Again, where is the rape? Even if Imam Malik said that you can rape her (which he didn't), he is not my final authority, the Prophet (peace be upon him) is. So what evidence did Imam Maalik use then from the Qur'an and Sunnah to justify his statement that one can rape his slave girl (which he didn't say, it's only for the sake of argument)?
    ......................................


    may be a bit confusing to the reader, especially the first part where it seems that one of the classical imaams said that one can have sex with a slave girl without her permission

    but infact it is not sex that is being talked about here, but azl [coitus interuptus]; if a person reads all of the above carefully they should understand it, but since there is a potential for misunderstanding here, i'll explain it further:

    coitus interuptus is not another term for sexual intercourse, but a form of contraception, it is basically when the man 'pulls out' just at the moment of climax, and it is this that he dont need the permission of the slave girl and not the sex itself


    [in the last post by the questioner, many extremely abusive words were used, so i stopped reading her replies, then still not having read her replies, i decided to enlighten her further inshAllah]:

    I weren't going to post here any longer for i thought you were beyond understanding, but now i see that nonetheless we have to keep on trying to show people the Soundness of islam, lest we should be guilty of neglect on the Day of judgement

    I would reccomend you to look into the general islamic guidance, for if we only focus on the seemingly contreversial aspects, then one could easily lose the big picture

    Since this issue is a bit hard for many non-Muslims to understand, due to the fallibility of the human mind, I think a few basic comments from me on this is not enough, so here are a few scholarly insights:

    http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...D=712&CATE=115

    http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...=1808&CATE=135

    http://askimam.org/public/question_detail/17032


    And finally


    God Allmighty, the one and only creator of the universe, and to who'm we all shall return, has given this permission of sex with slave girls in the Holy Quran itself, so who are we to argue against that?

    Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"

    Qur'an (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess..."

    Qur'an (70:29-30). And those who preserve their chastity Save with their wives and those whom their right hands possess, for thus they are not blameworthy

    Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess."

    Qur'an (8:69) - "But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good"

    we were nothing but an unclean drop of water gushing forth..., and now we want to argue against the creator???

    now ofcourse everyone will say their religion is from God, but Islam is not any religion, there are plenty of divine signs that it is from God, so i will urge all to read the Quran and seek the Truth with sincerety, and God-willing, the Truth shall set you free, er i mean, shall be made clear to you


    Here is another great read courtesy of a brother who compiled it:

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...am-and-Slavery



    Question:

    Now I am confused about


    004.092
    YUSUFALI: Never should a believer(Muslim) kill a believer(Muslim); but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due).

    If one (so) kills a believer(Muslim), it is ordained that he should free a believing (MUSLIM)slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer(MUSLIM), the freeing of a believing(MUSLIM) slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave(MUSLIM) be freed.


    So what I find confusing is how can one Muslim become the slave of another Muslim?


    Answer:

    who said anything 'bout muslim?; Muslims can never be slave of another; if a kaafir slave becomes a muslim, then this is the only way a muslim can be a slave, but as said, being a slave was overwhelmingly a temporary condition in islam and the way they were treated, you really can't call it slavery as we know it today; rather it was 'brothers and Sisters'/fellow humans being put through a rehabillitation system with unprecedented rights!; infact ZAID [ra] the slave boy of muhammad [saw]; when his father came to take him home, he out of choice said he would not leave muhammad [saw] so he chose to be a slave treated by a Muslim, rather than be free again and live with his family; can you just imagine how good he was treated?

    And that verse above basically demonstrates how being kind to slaves and freeing slaves were reccomended


    Question:

    And where does it say in the Quran or Hadiths that the reason for slavery is rehabillitation?


    Answer:

    it is deduced from the teachings; the Muslims duty is to save himself and all of humanity [as much as he can] from the Hell fire, so our interaction and treatment of non-Muslims wether slaves or not, is all meant as an 'invitation to Islam'; also the slave lives amongst the muslims and sees the excellent examples of Islam first hand; there can be no better exposure to the beuty of Islam

    The slaves also enjoy unprecedented human rights and dignified interaction with the Muslim society too, not being shunned etc, and thus once their freed, their ready to live as respectable members of the community


    ... (iv) to distribute them among the Muslims as part of the spoils of war.

    the fourth option, whence followed the humane laws and norms instituted by Islam for what is, in effect, the rehabilitation of prisoners of war.

    The slave in every Muslim house had the opportunity to see at close quarters the truth of Islam in practice. His heart would be won over by kind treatment and the humanity of Islam in general, especially by the access the slave had to many of the legal rights enjoyed by Muslims, and, ultimately, by getting his freedom. In this way, many thousands of the very best people have swelled the numbers of the great and famous in Islam, whose own example has then become a sunna, a norm, for the Muslims who succeeded them-imams such as Nafi�, Imam Malik�s sheikh, and Tawus bin Qaisan, to name only two.

    The reality is that in Islam it is overwhelmingly the case that being a slave was a temporary condition.

    http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.a...D=712&CATE=115


    Question:

    Would you believe a story about a Non-Muslim freeing a slave and the slave refusing because he was treated well by his slavemaster?

    Answer: yes it will be very rare indeed, however this slaveboy lived with THE MESSENGER OF ALLAH [SWT] and you can tell that type of endearment he'd have to the best of humanity, so it is not surprising that he did not leave; his dad was heartbroken when the boy was captured as a slave too and spent years? looking for him and the boy knew this, but yet he chose to stay with muhammad [saw]; straight after this event, the Propht [saw] adopted him as his son, untill adoption was prohibbited by Allah [swt], but in his later life this former slave was married to a cousin? of the prophet [saw], so this shows how their would be no stigma attachd to freed slaves and they would be treated as equall members of the community
    Last edited by AbuRayhan; 20-09-12 at 05:29 PM.

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by uncle umar View Post
    also just in general, there is no harm in asking questions on matters.

    the prophet pbuh said that the cure to ignorance is asking questions. these are the issues of today so its normal that people might have misunderstanding or doubts because of the huge media warfare going on against islam at the moment.

    but Allah guides who he wills and falsehood is no substitute for truth.
    u support the this issue?

    misogynist :@




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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by suddenawakening View Post
    Salaam. Excuse me for the long post but I feel some background on this will help. I don't mean to offend anyone but I'm going to be bluntly honest and hopefully someone will be able to help me reach something that feels more than just a superficial understanding that deep down I'm not comfortable with.

    Background.
    I have always identified myself as a Muslim and throughout my teenage years ( I am now approaching twenty) I undoubtedly have run into people, situations and scenarios that have made me question my religion, but despite this I've managed to reconcile these issues with my faith. At times, despite my personal opinion on an issue, I acknowledge it is what Islam says and I just have to accept it.
    A few years ago I came across the concept of concubines in Islam and instead of facing the issue, I put it to the back of my mind, but recently being on this 'journey' to strengthen and consolidate my faith I have been looking into matters that may be considered more 'fragile'.

    The present.
    Despite wanting to I am unable to reconcile the concept of concubines with my faith. Despite my hardest efforts, I can only somewhat understand the purpose of concubines.
    Something's I don't understand.
    -I don't understand why having sex and then a possible pregnancy is what would free a slave, why not just free her on the spot?
    - It is pointed out if these women were not used in this way they would be killed instead, but why not just keep them as maids? Why not just free them without killing them?
    -It's often pointed out that other faiths just killed their prisoners, but the wrongs of another religious group doesn't justify something that to my mind only seems slightly better.

    Main concerns
    - Another reason is because 'women have needs', but what if the woman doesn't wish to be a concubine? I have been told that the woman would have had no right to refuse. If a woman can not refuse sexual intercourse then you are forcing yourself onto an unwilling woman, you are raping her.
    - Am I right in believing if she is Muslim she can't be used as a concubine? So if she said the shahada, that would automatically stop her from becoming a concubine (regardless of whether it was genuine or not?)

    - I keep being told slavery is abolished but that is besides the point and seems like a cop out, if there was a proper Islamic Shariah state would concubines be allowed in this day and age?


    Please confirm
    I was looking on a very well known Muslim question and answer website and they were addressing the question of concubines. The individual answering the question also stated the wife of a man would be unable to protest or be displeased if her husband were to take a concubine. In effect her opinion was of no importance and the man was free to have intercourse with as many concubines as he wished. If this is true, then I don't understand how a woman can state in her marriage contract she has the right to divorce if a man takes another wife, but can not object to concubines.

    I have many more questions and I understand that this is a very long query and for that I apologise but this is something that I feel I have to ignore and have it chip at and weaken my faith, or tackle it head on and solve how shaky my faith feels when I'm approached with these subjects. I hope someone can answer some of the questions, if not all and I hope you don't mind my follow up questions.

    Thank you!
    Wa Aalaikum Assalam

    If the other answers here do not satisfy you, and you will actually read what I write, let me kknow. It takes time to write replies to these sorts of questions.
    If you have any questions feel free to PM me!

    Humililty, Sincerity, and the quest for Truth. There is no purpose in life but to seek the pleasure of Allah.
    There is a possibility a female might use this account to read something!

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by mokko View Post
    you should understand your question against the background that war rape is almost a constant in war history. In the short term (<23 years), it is better to regulate a practice than trying to forbid it.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_rape

    Instead of questioning the Quran and Sunna, you should question those who think that 23 years are enough to build an ideal society.
    your reasoning is completely wrong mokko, because, concubines are almost like wives, except that their in bondage due to their menfolk [of they themselves] waging war on Islam, thus putting these women through a rehabilitation such as this is perfect for all time to come

    God can get man to implement perfection in one year if He wills, thus 23 years was a great mercy to mankind

    and it is not rape for the women do consent to the sex...; if they do not consent to the initial slavery, then prisoners have no right to opt out of their sentence

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    Exclamation Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by *asiya* View Post
    thats a blatant lie. There is no rape in islam, nor does the Islam-qa.com website say that Allah ta ala allows rape under any circumstance.

    you two smell like a couple of trolls.

    Mokko is a 100% troll. He has been already banned from some other Islamic forums. He is known for misleading people by giving them false information about Islam. He has done this many times before on the other forums. Now he has come to ummah.com.



    So, Guys !!! Be careful!!!!!

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by mokko View Post
    If God wills, he can also split himself into three parts, and send one part of him into a human on the Earth (Jesus), who died on a cross as a great mercy to mankind. Do not ask how, it is haram to ask this question. It is a mystery, and God is beyond our understanding. This is the teaching of Trinitarian Christianity.

    confirmed revelation is haram to question in the sense where one doubts, but revelation will make sense and will not be contradictory as Islam is

    what you have mentioned above is contradictory and nonsensical, for 1, God dont do anything beneath His Majesty and greatness and 2, the above is akin to idolatry and polythiesm so it condraticts Gods message of monothiesm and 3, there is a whole lot of other nonsensical stuff that goes along with such notions

    Quote Originally Posted by mokko View Post
    If God wills, he can also put himself into a stone, as a great mercy to mankind, so that it is easier for people to worship him, instead of bowing in the vacuum (like Muslims do). Do not ask how, it is haram to ask this question. It is a mystery, and God is beyond our understanding. This is the teaching of stone-worshipping.

    again this will be the same as above; God does not do anything beneath his total and utter transcendence, nor is truth contradictory, thus God will not say He is transcendant and beyond anything being associated with Him, and then describe his attributes as immanent, fathomable and creation like

    Quote Originally Posted by mokko View Post
    Is there any difference between the teaching of Islam and of all those beliefs?

    ofcourse, as above; our religion is totally uncontradictory; hundred percent in accordance with monothiesm, i.e, God being ONE in the sense where He is totally transcendant and since it is the truth, it is logical and makes sense all the way; you wont find no mythological stuff in Islam; thor, zeus, human gods, gods fighting one another, animal gods and fantastical stuff is for other religions!

    Quote Originally Posted by mokko View Post
    Why Islam should be superior to any of these religions? Can you explain it to someone interested by Islam?

    yes ofcourse, as above; do i need to say more?


    Quote Originally Posted by mokko View Post
    PS: I am not asking you to refute Trinitarian Christianity or stone-worshipping, but to explain me why Islam cannot also be refuted with similar arguments (for example, it is useless to explain me that 1 is not equal to 3...).

    it cannot be refuted because it makes sense to know that truth will make sense and will be non-contradictory, so if God has said He is transcendant and explained that monothiesm neccessitates worshipping other than the creation, then God most certainly cannot be anything of the creation at all such as man, stone, or whatever we can think of; not even a spirit, energy etc, etc, God is far above all of those things the polythiests associate with Him
    Last edited by acacia; 23-09-12 at 08:52 PM.

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by acacia View Post
    ofcourse, as above; our religion is totally uncontradictory; hundred percent in accordance with monothiesm, i.e, God being ONE in the sense where He is totally transcendant and since it is the truth, it is logical and makes sense all the way; you wont find no mythological stuff in Islam; thor, zeus, human gods, gods fighting one another, animal gods and fantastical stuff is for other religions!

    Also, we have absolutely verifiable preserved evidence of the Prophet Muhammad [saw] performing miracles; the Quran itself is a miracle in many ways ['im not going to start listing them as i'm sure you've heard about them], and we have documented evidences of the entire life of the Prophet Muhammad [saw] exemplifying a totally upright, moral, God consciencious person who came from the lineage of Prophets as all Prophets in history do; also we have documented evidence with many witness testimony that the angel Jibril [as] indeed came to him*, etc, etc, thus every conceivable proof of the divine nature of Islam and it's sheer and utter perfection is there


    * check this hadith out; it is a rigorously authenticated one:

    on the authority of Omar, who said : One day while we were sitting with the messenger of Allah there appeared before us a man whose clothes were exceedingly white and whose hair was exceedingly black; no signs of journeying were to be seen on him and none of us knew him. He walked up and sat down by the prophet. Resting his knees against his and placing the palms of his hands on his thighs, he said:"O Muhammed, tell me about Islam". The messenger of Allah said: "Islam is to testify that there is no god but Allah and Muhammed is the messenger of Allah, to perform the prayers, to pay the zakat, to fast in Ramadhan, and to make the pilgrimage to the House if you are able to do so." He said:"You have spoken rightly", and we were amazed at him asking him and saying that he had spoken rightly. He said: "Then tell me about eman ."He said:"It is to believe in Allah, His angels, His books, His messengers, and the Last Day, and to believe in divine destiny, both the good and the evil thereof." He said:"You have spoken rightly". He said: " Then tell me about ehsan ." He said: "It is to worship Allah as though you are seeing Him, and while you see Him not yet truly He sees you". He said: "Then tell me about the Hour". He said: "The one questioned about it knows no better than the questioner." He said: "Then tell me about its signs." He said: "That the slave-girl will give birth to her mistress and that you will see the barefooted, naked, destitute herdsman competing in constructing lofty buildings." Then he took himself off and I stayed for a time. Then he said: "O Omar, do you know who the questioner was?" I said: "Allah and His messenger know best". He said: "He was Jebreel (Gabriel), who came to you to teach you your religion."

    narrated by Muslim


    a person/stranger suddenly appears in the middle of a desert, with no signs of travel on him such as being dishevelled, dirty clothes etc, and starts teaching the 'Master' of Islam in a teacher like fashion; this is proof that he could only be who the Prophet [saw] said he was, the angel Jibril [in the form of a man]; how else could a stranger just appear in the middle of a desert where Makkah was without any sign of travel on him?

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by mokko View Post
    This so-called "Muslim" way of thinking is against human nature (fitra, if you prefer). If relying on experience makes people "kafir" I do not think there will remain a lot of people "non-kafir", especially among those who minimally use their brain and senses.
    The Kufr are in the majority. It is easier for Insan to follow their base desires than to fight against them. I'm not sure what your point is here, whatever it may be it isn't well made.

    This kind of extravagant claims do not help Muslims to communicate their beliefs to normal people, who rely on observation and commonsense.
    Common sense would dictate that we make masah on the bottom of our leather-socks as this is where they become dusty. However, the established Sunnah is to make Masah over the leather socks where they will rarely become unclean. So do we(Muslims) opt for the Sunnah or common sense.

    This century-old viewpoint comes out of fear, low self-esteem and indifference for truth. It is the symptom of the stagnation of Muslim civilization.
    At this point in your post I had to check your profile to see if you are Muslim which you apparently are not. A viewpoint being old does not make it invalid in Islam. In fact if more of us(Muslims) had the view point of the Sahabah(RA) we would be better off and their "viewpoint" is 1400 year's old.
    By Him in whose Hand is the Soul of Muhammad, there is not one from the nations of the Jews and the Christians who hears about me and then dies while he has not believed in what I have been sent with except that he will be one of the companions of the Fire”. (Reported by Muslim in kitaabul Imaan)
    www.treasureofthescholars.wordpress.com

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by mokko View Post
    My personal view is that it is better to find peace with yourself, instead of viewing life as an eternal fight against your own nature. "base" desires are not worse than "high" desires, both are part of life.
    This is pretty much a view contray to Islam. Life is a struggle and we will falter and do wrong at times and then turn to Allah ta'ala to ask forgiveness. If attaining Jannah was easy it would in some ways lessen its value.
    By Him in whose Hand is the Soul of Muhammad, there is not one from the nations of the Jews and the Christians who hears about me and then dies while he has not believed in what I have been sent with except that he will be one of the companions of the Fire”. (Reported by Muslim in kitaabul Imaan)
    www.treasureofthescholars.wordpress.com

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by mokko View Post
    so everyone sitting in that gathering just had an illusion of that person did they because they had epilepsy? ; are you serious?; if you are, then check urself out for epilepsy

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Thank you.

    One of the issues I would like as a simple yes or no answer for clarification is whether a concubine has the right to object or refuse sexual relations.
    And whether the man's wife has the right to object to him keeping concubines.

    (When I say simple yes or no, I don't mean don't expand further upon your answer because obviously I still want to learn)

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by acacia View Post
    your reasoning is completely wrong mokko, because, concubines are almost like wives, except that their in bondage due to their menfolk [of they themselves] waging war on Islam, thus putting these women through a rehabilitation such as this is perfect for all time to come

    God can get man to implement perfection in one year if He wills, thus 23 years was a great mercy to mankind

    and it is not rape for the women do consent to the sex...; if they do not consent to the initial slavery, then prisoners have no right to opt out of their sentence
    I believe you mean 'it is not rape if the women do not consent to the sex' or it does not make sense. In which case, it most certainly is rape and your analogy is ridiculous. Frankly that's an awful justification.

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by suddenawakening View Post
    I believe you mean 'it is not rape if the women do not consent to the sex' or it does not make sense. In which case, it most certainly is rape and your analogy is ridiculous. Frankly that's an awful justification.
    You seem a bit thick sister if you dont mind me saying

    So you really think that a slave girl will never consent to sex?

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Well let me tell you sis that they can and do consent and there's nothing nonsensical about that

    Just imagine yourself in that situation sissy and when your master treats you lovingly like a wife and your being a human obviously sometime or another your going to have 'urges'; could there be a possibility your going to think 'hmmm dont mind if i do'?

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by mokko View Post
    but the real question of this thread was: what happens if she is not sensible and attracted to "master's love"?

    Being a human obviously, sometime or another, she will have a miserable life, try to escape, or commit suicide.
    i dont know what "masters love" is supposed to mean, and it doesn't matter. many people have found love in such situations. happened in the time of the prophet and it happened even in recent history between a slave and her owner even where slaves ( were often treated quiet appallingly as there were no rules on kind treatment as we have in islam ) It happened in my own family where a slave girl and her owner fell in love and he had children with her, and left his entire plantation and all his wealth to her and his son, my children's grandmother is their granddaughter. when people are treating each other as islam has enjoined, then there will be no issues of people being so miserable they want to kill themselves audu billah.

    islam, enjoins the freeing of slaves of the words of the prophet at his last khutbah was "..and set the captives free" freeing slaves is to give in charity, and islam does not allow oppression of anyone.

    if you want to understand any aspect of islam, then you need to understand who is Allah, who is your creator, and once you have understood that, then you may begin to see the wisdom in all other matters insha Allah.
    "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

    The Prophet said:

    "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

    muslim

    Narrated 'Abdullah:

    The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


    "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

    By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

    [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]


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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by *asiya* View Post
    i dont know what "masters love" is supposed to mean, and it doesn't matter. many people have found love in such situations. happened in the time of the prophet and it happened even in recent history between a slave and her owner even where slaves ( were often treated quiet appallingly as there were no rules on kind treatment as we have in islam ) It happened in my own family where a slave girl and her owner fell in love and he had children with her, and left his entire plantation and all his wealth to her and his son, my children's grandmother is their granddaughter. when people are treating each other as islam has enjoined, then there will be no issues of people being so miserable they want to kill themselves audu billah.

    islam, enjoins the freeing of slaves of the words of the prophet at his last khutbah was "..and set the captives free" freeing slaves is to give in charity, and islam does not allow oppression of anyone.

    if you want to understand any aspect of islam, then you need to understand who is Allah, who is your creator, and once you have understood that, then you may begin to see the wisdom in all other matters insha Allah.
    why doesnt islam just forbid slavery then? obviously islam does allow oppression as slavery is permited, these regulations over treating slaves nicely and setting them free is charitable just begs the questions why isn't it just abolished? if God wanted to get people to take care of the slaves he could of just said free your slaves but help them financially or somthing. islam allows people to be treated as property, and there is no apologetics that can make it seem ethical.

    on another point, can anyone provide any evidance that raping your wife is not allowed? i can't find any hadith that does.
    Last edited by rawlsam; 04-10-12 at 12:04 PM.

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by rawlsam View Post
    why doesnt islam just forbid slavery then? obviously islam does allow oppression as slavery is permited, these regulations over treating slaves nicely and setting them free is charitable just begs the questions why isn't it just abolished? if God wanted to get people to take care of the slaves he could of just said free your slaves but help them financially or somthing. islam allows people to be treated as property, and there is no apologetics that can make it seem ethical.

    on another point, can anyone provide any evidance that raping your wife is not allowed? i can't find any hadith that does.
    In islam there is something called POW during warfare, the same as with any other army. Difference being they will not be tortured or raped, as happens to the muslim women and children during todays wars when they are captured by nonmuslims. instead they will live with, and work for muslim families. They can earn their freedom, they will also be freed as a charity.

    Regarding rape, first you need to know that there is no opression in islam. rape is an opression. It is not permitted to approach ones wife without first engaging in foreplay, rape does not involve foreplay, it is also not permitted for a man to withdraw his private part from his wife until she has been satisfied. Again this is not something that could happen during rape. therefore a man could never rape his wife if he fears and obeys Allah.

    like i said, if u want to understand islam, then first try to understand who is Allah, and then you will appreciate the immense wisdom in the commands of almighty Allah, for mankind so that justice can be upheld in the earth, and then we can move onto understanding other topics more easily insha Allah.
    Last edited by *asiya*; 04-10-12 at 03:06 PM.
    "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

    The Prophet said:

    "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

    muslim

    Narrated 'Abdullah:

    The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


    "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

    By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

    [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]


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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by *asiya* View Post
    In islam there is something called POW during warfare, the same as with any other army. Difference being they will not be tortured or raped, as happens to the muslim women and children during todays wars when they are captured by nonmuslims. instead they will live with, and work for muslim families. They can earn their freedom, they will also be freed as a charity.

    Regarding rape, first you need to know that there is no opression in islam. rape is an opression. It is not permitted to approach ones wife without first engaging in foreplay, rape does not involve foreplay, it is also not permitted for a man to withdraw his private part from his wife until she has been satisfied. Again this is not something that could happen during rape. therefore a man could never rape his wife if he fears and obeys Allah.

    like i said, if u want to understand islam, then first try to understand who is Allah, and then you will appreciate the immense wisdom in the commands of almighty Allah, for mankind so that justice can be upheld in the earth, and then we can move onto understanding other topics more easily insha Allah.
    other armys capture slaves etc because they don't claim to following perfect moral guidance from god, why do people who are captured from warefare need to "earn their freedom"? you still did not awsner my question, if there is no oppresion in islam, why was slavery not abolished?

    depends what you mean by foreplay, i have read an hadith somwhere that you should not approach your wife like an animal or somthing along those lines, as for not withdrawing until she is satisfied, can you show me that hadith? and the foreplay one? i have seen the hadiths about how angels curse a wife who does not have sex with her husband when he calls for her, seeing as it is a duty of a women to satisfy her husband (even if she does not want to ) don't you think it would be useful to mention you can't force them to do it?
    Last edited by rawlsam; 04-10-12 at 03:52 PM.

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by mokko View Post
    i replied to your question post number 17: according to my (heterodox) understanding, Islam is about reform and progress, it is not about a set of rigid rules fixed 23 years after jahiliya. It is better to take it as a source of inspiration for creative solutions, not as something to be passively followed.

    today, despite modern "freedoms", there is still a lot of exploitation in work, etc...there is no easy solution to this problem ( as for the problem of slavery in the past), and instead of focusing on rigid rules, it is better to focus on practical ways of improvement.
    salafi's on here won't be to happy we these kind of responses :P

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by rawlsam View Post
    other armys capture slaves etc because they don't claim to following perfect moral guidance from god, why do people who are captured from warefare need to "earn their freedom"? you still did not awsner my question, if there is no oppresion in islam, why was slavery not abolished?

    depends what you mean by foreplay, i have read an hadith somwhere that you should not approach your wife like an animal or somthing along those lines, as for not withdrawing until she is satisfied, can you show me that hadith? and the foreplay one? i have seen the hadiths about how angels curse a wife who does not have sex with her husband when he calls for her, seeing as it is a duty of a women to satisfy her husband (even if she does not want to ) don't you think it would be useful to mention you can't force them to do it?
    slavery aka being a POW , in islam is not an opression and it is often necessary for armys to take POW`s during warfare for various reasons. The commands of almighty God, are for all time. wether you can see the wisdom in it or not, its a fact there maybe times where its necessary.

    im not sure what exactly it is youre trying to say about muslims, what do you think muslim men are, do you think they have no sense of common decency and kindness towards their wives. no husband is going to force his wife, she maybe too tired, she may be ill, feel unwell, any number of things so she will not be able to have relations, and her husband will understand that, it also works visa versa, he also cannot refuse his wife unless he has good reason.

    The understanding of the hadith u mentioned, is that between a husband and wife marriages can break down when physical relationship breaks down, and the reminder is there for men and women not to withhold relations from each other for spite. There is only kindness and love in regards to these issues.

    Allah says,

    "Of His signs is this: that He created for you spouses that you might find rest in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy."
    (Quran, 30:21)

    "Not one of you should fall upon his wife like an animal; but let there first be a messenger between you." "And what is that messenger?" they asked, and he replied: "Kisses and words."
    (Daylami)

    Imam al-Ghazali says: "Sex should begin with gentle words and kissing," and Imam al-Zabidi adds: "This should include not only the cheeks and lips; and then he should caress the breasts and nipples, and every part of her body." (Zabidi, Ithaf al-Sada al Muttaqin, V 372) Most men will not need telling this; but it should be remembered that failure to observe this Islamic practice is to neglect or deny the way Allah has created women.

    narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab "The prophet forbade withdrawing the penis from a woman unless she gives permission. Al-Tirmidhi

    Ibn Qudaamah al-Hanbali said: “Intercourse is a duty on the man – i.e., the husband should have intercourse with his wife – so long as he has no excuse.” (al-Mughni, 7/30)

    a woman is treated so well she is not even obliged to do household chores, or carry shopping, a muslim husband considers it his duty before Allah to show kindness to his wife, so how can you think such kindness does not extend into ones intimate life. A mans talking care of his wife is considered to be an amannah, a trust between him and Allah, and he will answer for in how he behaves towards her

    Narrated Aisha

    Allah's Messenger May Allah's peace and praise be on him used to patch his sandals, sew his garment and conduct himself at home as anyone of you does in his house. He was a human being, cleaning his garment, milking the sheep, and doing household chores.
    Tirmidhi

    Sahih al-Bukhari 8.65, Narrated Al Aswad I asked 'Aisha what did the Prophet May Allah's peace and praise be on him use to do at home. She replied, "He used to keep himself busy serving his family and when it was time for the prayer, he would get up for prayer."

    Salih reported that his grandmother said, "I saw Ali buy some dates for a dirham and then carry them in the folds of his wrap. Someone asked him, 'Shall I carry those for you, O Commander of the Faithful?" 'Ali replied, 'No. The father of the family is the one most deserving of the burden.' " Bukhari

    insha Allah that is more than suffice to bring this topic to a close now.
    "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

    The Prophet said:

    "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

    muslim

    Narrated 'Abdullah:

    The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


    "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

    By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

    [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]


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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by *asiya* View Post
    slavery aka being a POW , in islam is not an opression and it is often necessary for armys to take POW`s during warfare for various reasons. The commands of almighty God, are for all time. wether you can see the wisdom in it or not, its a fact there maybe times where its necessary.

    im not sure what exactly it is youre trying to say about muslims, what do you think muslim men are, do you think they have no sense of common decency and kindness towards their wives. no husband is going to force his wife, she maybe too tired, she may be ill, feel unwell, any number of things so she will not be able to have relations, and her husband will understand that, it also works visa versa, he also cannot refuse his wife unless he has good reason.

    The understanding of the hadith u mentioned, is that between a husband and wife marriages can break down when physical relationship breaks down, and the reminder is there for men and women not to withhold relations from each other for spite. There is only kindness and love in regards to these issues.

    Allah says,

    "Of His signs is this: that He created for you spouses that you might find rest in them, and He ordained between you love and mercy."
    (Quran, 30:21)

    "Not one of you should fall upon his wife like an animal; but let there first be a messenger between you." "And what is that messenger?" they asked, and he replied: "Kisses and words."
    (Daylami)

    Imam al-Ghazali says: "Sex should begin with gentle words and kissing," and Imam al-Zabidi adds: "This should include not only the cheeks and lips; and then he should caress the breasts and nipples, and every part of her body." (Zabidi, Ithaf al-Sada al Muttaqin, V 372) Most men will not need telling this; but it should be remembered that failure to observe this Islamic practice is to neglect or deny the way Allah has created women.

    narrated Umar ibn al-Khattab "The prophet forbade withdrawing the penis from a woman unless she gives permission. Al-Tirmidhi

    Ibn Qudaamah al-Hanbali said: “Intercourse is a duty on the man – i.e., the husband should have intercourse with his wife – so long as he has no excuse.” (al-Mughni, 7/30)

    a woman is treated so well she is not even obliged to do household chores, or carry shopping, a muslim husband considers it his duty before Allah to show kindness to his wife, so how can you think such kindness does not extend into ones intimate life. A mans talking care of his wife is considered to be an amannah, a trust between him and Allah, and he will answer for in how he behaves towards her

    Narrated Aisha

    Allah's Messenger May Allah's peace and praise be on him used to patch his sandals, sew his garment and conduct himself at home as anyone of you does in his house. He was a human being, cleaning his garment, milking the sheep, and doing household chores.
    Tirmidhi

    Sahih al-Bukhari 8.65, Narrated Al Aswad I asked 'Aisha what did the Prophet May Allah's peace and praise be on him use to do at home. She replied, "He used to keep himself busy serving his family and when it was time for the prayer, he would get up for prayer."

    Salih reported that his grandmother said, "I saw Ali buy some dates for a dirham and then carry them in the folds of his wrap. Someone asked him, 'Shall I carry those for you, O Commander of the Faithful?" 'Ali replied, 'No. The father of the family is the one most deserving of the burden.' " Bukhari

    insha Allah that is more than suffice to bring this topic to a close now.
    in what situation would it be neccesary to take away civilians freedom from them?

    it is still not clear that a man should not rape his wife, i mentioned earlier that men are encouraged to treat their wives with love and respect but this does not necceserly follow that rape is not allowed as people have a differant idea of what love and respect is, for example somone could argue, it is a womans duty to satisfy the husband so getting your wife to fufill her duties means allah will be pleased with her, which is a loving respectful thing to do (in the same way a man is given permission to beat his wife in the Quran)


    basically point is loving and caring doesn't automatically mean rape not allowed.
    Last edited by rawlsam; 04-10-12 at 10:17 PM.

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Originally Posted by mokko
    but the real question of this thread was: what happens if she is not sensible and attracted to "master's love"?

    Being a human obviously, sometime or another, she will have a miserable life, try to escape, or commit suicide.
    .......................................

    the real question was answered a long time ago mokko if only you guys actually read thev answers we give, even if they are a bit detailed see AbuRayhans post and the first link he provided there

    ofcourse some can feel miserable and want to run away or even commit suicide just as people can outside of slavery too, but generally that weren't the case for slaves were treated like members of the family with unprecedented rights, so vast numbers of time they realised that only in a true religion of God can things be this humanse so they ended up converting to Islam

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by rawlsam View Post
    why doesnt islam just forbid slavery then?
    slavery in the Islamic way is just too benifical for the women and children of the hell-bent enemies that wage war against Islam; the reason for this great benificience is allready given; see previous answers by Uncle Umar, AbuRayhan and acacia, and oh yes one more, lil ole me too!

    and did you know slavery is a problem that allways exists no matter how 'enlightened' a age we live, such as in NOW???; OFCOURSE; JUST CHECK OUT how the west enslaves whole nations with their cunning loaning schemes and with war and sanctions; the modern economy is all built on the less powerfull countries catering to the needs/economy of the rich and powerfull one's; or else they get blasted to kingdom come!; thus Islam has regulated it in the bestest way!

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    i did say may do those things mokko and not will; well the other things other than suicide free people can be like that too but so far i have not heard of a person commiting suicide for being under Islamic slavery

    Also the mindset of slaves of the 7th century should be taken into consideration; they knew that slavery will be their lot if their defeated thus the women folk infact use to be ready to make love and stuff with their captors [ha ha so much for not wiling... ]; there is non-muslims attesting to that too; see in the following link:

    http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/does_islam_permit_muslim_men_to_rape_their_slave_g irls_

    and as for nowadays; if the Khilafah was to be established tomorrow with the kuffar breaking the peace treaty with them, by which the former will no longer be bound by an abolishment of slavery treaty, then the enemy pow would be expected to be enslaved too, so they would knowingly take that risk and basically be 'ready' for it, thus any of them too are unlikely to commit suicide expect a few verry bitter and arrogant enemy that cannot stand being the slave of those he regards as inferior terrorists!


    and it is wrong to thing that Allah's guidance will ensure everyone is happy, for the verry point of free-will is that some will allways remain negative

    and you cannot refute Islam with the example/teachings of a tiny minority of Muslims; Salafi's; i dare you to try refute it with the mainstream/normative examples!

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bhai1 View Post
    Also the mindset of slaves of the 7th century should be taken into consideration; they knew that slavery will be their lot if their defeated thus the women folk infact use to be ready to make love and stuff with their captors
    You please, you are just making up stuff now. Rather silly opinion of women in addition.

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mich View Post
    You please, you are just making up stuff now. Rather silly opinion of women in addition.
    read that link mich, there is a non-muslim western historian saying all this stuff in there, so if anyone made it up, it's that guy and not me!

    here it is:

    These critics are ignorant of history, for slave girls did consent to having sex with their captors back in the past.

    John McClintock said:

    Women who followed their father and husbands to the war put on their finest dresses and ornaments previous to an engagement, in the hope of finding favor in the eyes of their captors in case of a defeat. (John McClintock, James Strong, "Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature" [Harper & Brothers, 1894], p. 782)

    Matthew B. Schwartz said:

    The Book of Deuteronomy prescribes its own rules for the treatment of women captured in war [ Deut 21:10-14 ] . Women have always followed armies to do the soldiers' laundry, to nurse the sick and wounded, and to serve as prostitutes

    They would often dress in such a way as to attract the soldiers who won the battle. The Bible recognizes the realities of the battle situation in its rules on how to treat female captives, though commentators disagree on some of the details.

    The biblical Israelite went to battle as a messenger of God. Yet he could also, of course, be caught up in the raging tide of blood and violence. The Western mind associates prowess, whether military or athletic, with sexual success.

    The pretty girls crowd around the hero who scores the winning touchdown, not around the players of the losing team. And it is certainly true in war: the winning hero "attracts" the women. (Matthew B. Schwartz, Kalman J. Kaplan, "The Fruit of Her Hands: The Psychology of Biblical Women" [Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2007] , pp. 146-147)


    Thus we see from two non-Muslim authors that slave girls back in the past would consent to having sex with their captors. So if we put aside our 21st century mindset and look at history objectively, there is nothing wrong with saying that slave girls back then consented to having sex with their captors.

    One might object to the fact that the above authors are only speaking about the Israelite era. However, that is really not a good response. The point I am trying to make is that the idea of the possibility of slave girls willingly having sex with their captors is not absurd. Thus, one is required to provide proof that those slave girls who had sex with their Muslim captors did not consent. This is especially due to the fact that 1) It was possible for slave girls back in the past to consent to having sex with their captors and 2) Muslims were prohibited from harming their slave girls.

    http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/does_islam_permit_muslim_men_to_rape_their_slave_g irls_

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    prostitutes and camp followers, or ladies giving kiss to returning soldiers who lived next door is not having your family killed in front of you, captured, put into slavery, and then suddenly having the desire to have sex with the person who just killed your family and the blood on their swords is not even dry. And in some cases , knowing their husband is even still alive and willing to pay ransom money for their return and you think they would willingly have sex with their? That is just silliness.

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mich View Post
    prostitutes and camp followers, or ladies giving kiss to returning soldiers who lived next door is not having your family killed in front of you, captured, put into slavery, and then suddenly having the desire to have sex with the person who just killed your family and the blood on their swords is not even dry. And in some cases , knowing their husband is even still alive and willing to pay ransom money for their return and you think they would willingly have sex with their? That is just silliness.

    did you miss the other quote about ordinary women getting ready to mate with their captors and not the prostitutes?; it's funny how you ignore one comment and only adress another; mc clintock say women who follow their husbands and fathers to war, put on their finest dresses..., i.e, basically getting ready to give themsleves to the victors; a lot of them surely would witness their fathers and brothers getting killed wouldn't they before it would be 'thrill time' for them?

    Also let me just mention here that after war, muslims do not just have sex with their captive slave women; the commander must first give them out to the soldiers - and this could be after days or even weeks after the war, thus theres ample time for bad feelings to dissipate - and this is like a wali giving a woman in marriage to the man so the man is binded by a contract similar to that of marriage to treat the woman well etc, so this slave master relationship is very much like a real marriage

    And overall it is the norms of society that influences sphycological and emotional behaviour; if people know that after war, slavery could well be their lot, then it's amazing how the human brain could adapt to accepting their fate and making the most of it

    And especially with Islam, people can actually sense that the muslims are the real good guys and the enemies of Islam are the baddies, so its like hitlers niece not grieving if hitler was killed in front of her and she going off happily to make love to his killer ; it's a bit egaggerated here but you know what i mean

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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by exmokko View Post

    Militarily speaking, Muslims often stand on the side of losers, not winners. They no longer have the power to enslave anyone (except in few remoted areas). Today, they are the people being persecuted. Why? A very small part of the explanation has to do with the memory of these slavery histories (ask Serbian nationalists about Bosnia, or Russian nationalists about Chechnya: they remember history very well) . When Muslims acknowledge their mistakes (like all other people on the Earth), it will be a step towards peace and mutual understanding.


    But sometimes, persecution can be a good thing: it is an opportunity to learn empathy, to learn what it means to be humiliated, and to avoid doing the same thing on others in the future. At the end, we are all human beings.
    that is pure evil speaking.

    8000 muslim men and boys executed in bosnia was a good thing ? countless thousands of raped men and women from iraq to syria, to bosnia, to afghanistan is a good thing ? the expulsion of palestinians from their homes and the subsequent torment they are being put through, including the deaths of countless innocents the torture of muslims in abu ghraib, guatanamo, bagram, kabul, mogadishu is a good thing ? seriously sometime there are just no words. how can you reason with the devil.
    Last edited by *asiya*; 06-10-12 at 08:54 AM.
    "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

    The Prophet said:

    "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

    muslim

    Narrated 'Abdullah:

    The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


    "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

    By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

    [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]


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    Re: Concubines in Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bhai1 View Post
    let me just mention here that after war, muslims do not just have sex with their captive slave women; the commander must first give them out to the soldiers - and this could be after days or even weeks after the war, thus theres ample time for bad feelings to dissipate -:
    of course - your husband, your father and other male relatives may have been killed, the rest of your family and friends enslaved, but give it a couple of weeks, and "bad feelings dissipate" : hey, presto ! women are ready to "make love" with the killers and ensavers

    where exactly did you get your opinions about women ?


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