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  1. #1
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    I REALLY need to learn about Islam

    This is more within an Australian context.

    How has Islam/Muslim changed in Australia since 1945 or so? Right after World War 2?

  2. #2
    pariah *asiya*'s Avatar
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    Re: I REALLY need to learn about Islam

    im not sure what ur question is exactly,if u mean how have muslims changed, then they wouldnt have changed at all, as islam is a religion that is never changing it remains the same for all time. islam means to submit to the commands of Almighty Allah ( Allah - God , the one who created the heavens and the earth and all it contains)

    if u want to give us some more idea about what u mean then we can try and explain some more for u
    "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

    The Prophet said:

    "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

    muslim

    Narrated 'Abdullah:

    The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


    "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

    By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

    [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]


  3. #3
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    Re: I REALLY need to learn about Islam

    Yay! I was scared this topic wouldn't go through because I'm a new member and my last one didn't.
    Thank you for that information though, cause it's helped clarify what kind of questions I should be asking and what I need to find out about.

    Let me rethink my previous question/s.

    How do you apply something written hundreds or thousands years ago to life you go through today?
    Also as a Muslim or as a person today do you consider yourself a post-modernist?

    Post Modernism is the belief that there is no ultimate truth and so it is not right to enforce one's own beliefs onto another person, group or institution. It's also a tricky belief/philosophy because it claims nothing can be defined or absolute and so Post Modernism in itself is unstable and questionable. It's kinda like the idea of nothing/no one being black and white but in shades of grey.

    Have you also had any struggles with discrimination or anything of the sorts in a western country?

  4. #4
    pariah *asiya*'s Avatar
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    Re: I REALLY need to learn about Islam

    well islam we understand is the way of life for mankind, having said that no one can be forced to become a muslim (definition being- one who sumbits to islam) as it is something someone beleives from their heart, so no one could force anyone to be a muslim. to beleive in Allah in islam, to pray 5 times a day and to strive to do all that Allah has ordered us to do, and to stay away from what Allah has ordered us to stay away from, makes one a muslim. As Allah states in the Quran that " there is no compulsion in religion" then its impossible for anyone to be forced to be a muslim.

    we live as people have always lived, we eat sleep work, get married have children, grow old ( or not ) and die. life is pretty much the same for mankind, over the millenia, we just have different technologies in life, which is not a problem.

    islam didnt begin with prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, as many people think, islam is the religion - the way of life- since Allah created the first human being Adam, peace be upon him. so islam that is, the submission to almighty Allah, stays the same. so you will see that we dress as Jesus peace be upon him also dressed, that women dress as his mother dressed, as they were also muslims. so muslims are not affected by the passing of time, or the millenia we live in, our dedication to islam, our worship remains the same.

    so of course every muslim beleives in an ultimate truth, islam. we also believe that not everyone accepts islam as their choice for life. so if i have understood ur definition properly then we could never be called post modernists.

    descrimination, yes there is plenty, of course we see the invasions of the muslim countries in the name of "democracy" on a daily basis we have the hatred in the press, from governments, on a personal level many of us in the west deal with name calling, physical attacks, abuse, many people dont beleive that muslims should have the right to remind individuals, that they should not be allowed to live as they live, and that they should be swept up in the modern idea of a forced "collective consiousness" of american what is loosely known as "western" style style culture where everyone adopts the same ideas, which isnt working out in society because those ideas of what is correct, are ever changing.

    for example , sodomy wasnt accepted 30 years ago, now it is, nakedness in public wasnt accepted in the west 40 years ago, now it is, it wasnt accepted to drink alcohol in america in the 1920`s now it is.. and Allah only knows where is will all lead.its very intersting that nationalisim is something esposed as the "acceptable view" after the 1st world war, until then even reigions of france were vbery different from brittany to normandy, different foods, way of life, the language and the clothing was totally different types of french. but after the 1st world war it was seen that to force people to become affiliated with their nation and nothing else, was a way of controlling the masses, of course this backfired with the nazi regime using this as a force for evil, under the guise of the german nation and the "fatherland"

    but for us as muslims, life is stable,no matter what is going on in the world, as we know where we are headed and we feel at ease with who we are and our lifestyle, there is no confusion as to what fashion to adopt, or what is accetable behaviour as we have lived by the same standards over millenia
    Last edited by *asiya*; 23-02-12 at 11:19 AM.
    "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

    The Prophet said:

    "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

    muslim

    Narrated 'Abdullah:

    The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


    "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

    By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

    [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]


  5. #5
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    Re: I REALLY need to learn about Islam

    Thank you for your response It's really helpful.
    On the basis of what Postmodernism is, it's more of a generational thing I suppose. Say, a teacher a few generations back, would say something and the class would write it down without much question. Accepting it as truth. Now a days, a teacher says something that might be a bit controversal or is very opinionated on a very broad topic usually has a few people that question the ideas of the teacher and compare it with their own.

    A topic that might gain alot of postmodern views is divorce. Would you say the divorce is strictly taboo and forbidden under any circumstances or would you be allowed to divorce if your husband became abusive, unfaithful or had undergone a sex/gender change?

    From what I've got already I think I've learnt that Christianity is usually handled/practised by learning how a scripture applied to the times it were written and then being taken out and applied to the society today. Seperating the powers and principals (the theology) from the cultural context to our own personal and social context today. From what I understand, Islam takes both the theology and the culture and applies it to life as a Muslim today? Please correct me if I am wrong.

    Theres been a few debates as to whether certains aspects of Islam are culture or religious, one of these are hijabs and burquas. There has been a poll in Australia whether burquas should be banned, what is you view and opinion on this? Especially that the majority voted yes (but it was only a poll, so nothing officially changed).

    To what I've researched, shouldn't it also be obligatory for a man to wear a burqua? To establish that equality of man and woman?

  6. #6
    umm sumaiya naila-k's Avatar
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    Re: I REALLY need to learn about Islam

    Part of secularisation theory, is the absence of religion from public institutions, in post modern society this has led to the spiritual supermarket, market place in which individuals are able to pick and choose which spiritually suits them and how they choose to view it. Spiritualities such as paganism which are percieved to be historically connected to the land people live in are revived, also seen it increased interest in first nation beliefs in Americas, and can be connected with increase in awareness of environmentalist issues. The result of capitalism and consumer driven societies extends to spiritual beliefs. Even within traditions, such as Islam, adherents have a multitude of ways available to them in which to interpret and fillow the faith. Globilization and technology such as internet and religious tv channels enable this in a post modern context.

    Recipes for all the family
    (and you thought I was a lazy feminazi which can't cook?)

  7. #7
    umm sumaiya naila-k's Avatar
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    Re: I REALLY need to learn about Islam

    Divorce has always been permissable in Islam.
    I do not believe in burqa ban.
    The awrah (private parts) of men and women are different. Islam believes that being equal in the sight of Allah does not equate to the same and men and women are different.

    Recipes for all the family
    (and you thought I was a lazy feminazi which can't cook?)

  8. #8
    www.searching-islam.com Perseveranze's Avatar
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    Re: I REALLY need to learn about Islam

    I'd recommend asking Australian Muslims -

    http://www.sydneymuslimyouth.com/smyforum/
    A Fast Growing Islamic Search Website -

    www.Searching-Islam.com

  9. #9
    pariah *asiya*'s Avatar
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    Re: I REALLY need to learn about Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by rosella View Post
    Thank you for your response It's really helpful.
    On the basis of what Postmodernism is, it's more of a generational thing I suppose. Say, a teacher a few generations back, would say something and the class would write it down without much question. Accepting it as truth. Now a days, a teacher says something that might be a bit controversal or is very opinionated on a very broad topic usually has a few people that question the ideas of the teacher and compare it with their own.

    A topic that might gain alot of postmodern views is divorce. Would you say the divorce is strictly taboo and forbidden under any circumstances or would you be allowed to divorce if your husband became abusive, unfaithful or had undergone a sex/gender change?

    From what I've got already I think I've learnt that Christianity is usually handled/practised by learning how a scripture applied to the times it were written and then being taken out and applied to the society today. Seperating the powers and principals (the theology) from the cultural context to our own personal and social context today. From what I understand, Islam takes both the theology and the culture and applies it to life as a Muslim today? Please correct me if I am wrong.

    Theres been a few debates as to whether certains aspects of Islam are culture or religious, one of these are hijabs and burquas. There has been a poll in Australia whether burquas should be banned, what is you view and opinion on this? Especially that the majority voted yes (but it was only a poll, so nothing officially changed).

    To what I've researched, shouldn't it also be obligatory for a man to wear a burqua? To establish that equality of man and woman?
    well its interesting that islam actually set the standards for the modern day good and fair treatment of women, we find it really strange when people say we are opressed, or downtrodden etc, because we have been liberated for millenia, treated with the utmost respect and had ( and still have ) more womens rights , long before the western woman has to start burning her bra.. .

    in the west women are not entitled to expect a man to marry her before he has sexual relations with her, she is expected to give her body to a man, and pehaps even bear his child without any security for hers or the childs future. she is not entitled to any emotional or practical support from the father in regards to rasing that child, although the courts now may try and order him to pay something towards the childs upkeep, but generally the tax payer will fund any children from her sexual relationships.

    in islam even the child has rights before it is born to have two parents who are married, and a father who is generous, kind loving, comitted and who obeys and fears Allah, and doesnt need any court to force him to take care of his children or their mother. muslim women are not permitted to marry stingy, miserly or harsh men. women are permitted to raise their children and are not compelled to place them in daycare and other such places to be raised by strangers, while they go out to work, why have children if u are going to give them to someone else to raise. we have seen the decline in western society where children dont have a stable family life, and end up disturbed, and in trouble with the police or on drugs etc.

    for example women in the west didnt have any right to their own property or wealth after marriage until only the last 100 years, as it all automatically passed to the husband upon marriage, and she has no acess to it, whereas muslim women retain their wealth, property as their own and their husband is not entitled to any share of it neither during nor upon the dissolution of marriage.

    in regards to divorce,again its not a right given to many women in the west even till today a catholic woman could not divorce according to her faith. of course a muslim woman can divorce if her husband is abusive, or even if she just doesnt like him anymore, its something muslim women again have had the right to do for millenia.

    in regards to our dress, this is a huge opression that the western world puts on muslim women, in islam we have the right to cover ourselves and to not be annoyed by men merely because of our beauty, any woman who has had a man wolf whistling at her in the street will tell u how uncomfortable that can be, and one thing i noticed when i came to islam was that the unwanted attention of men was immediatley stopped. no more strange men passing u phone number, or whistling or calling out as u walked by a bulding site, i love that i am free to live my life and not have men thinking they have the right to behave in such a manner towards me.

    even if u are dressed, as i was before islam, in what would be deemed modest clothing, ankle length skirts and long sleeve tops, it does not prevent that kind of attention from men as hijab does ( islamic dress) does, because any man can see i am a woman of religion and i am not "fair game" or to be asked out on a date or any other such thing. in fact the attitude of many men towards me now, is one of the utmost politeness.

    in islam we are not compelled to undress or to uncover ourselves in front of any man. it is astonishing that the west who espouses such so called "freedoms" demand that we are put on display, and be degraded like so many women in the west who are used as sexual objects to display anything from selling soap to cars, and if we refuse to degrade ourselves in such a manner, we are to be fined, or even jailed.

    in doing so the western world has openly shown the hypocrisy and the false notion of its so called "freedoms" as we have seen in france for example, muslim women are not free to do as they please, in the west they are only free to obey men who demand they uncover themselves and display their beauty on the street, wether they like it or not.

    for sure hijab ( islamic dress) is not cultural it is clearly mentioned in our scripture,it is not optional, we wear it so that we will be known as beleiving women. just as a nun wears hijab till this day and is known as a woman who has dedicated her life to worship of Jesus, we have dedicated our lives in obedience to almighty God. unlike christianity we do not change our beleiefs, or adherance to our religion to suit fashion, or "changing times" we remain as muslims in obedience to Allah, the same as we have always done, and will live as we have always done regardless of legislation, or threats of financial penalties, or jail.

    as for womens dress code, muslim men also have a dress code, they must grow their beards, it is haram ( forbidden) for them to shave their faces, they also have to wear loose fitting clothing that hides the shape of their body so they wear baggy trousers etc.

    and just to further clarify one thing, cultureal dicatates are not what islam are based on, islam is based on the words of Almighty God, in the Quran and the statements of theinal and last prophet and messenger Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him, so it is irrelevant what a person of any culture does, we still adhere to islam, you may travel to what is known as a muslim country, ie: morocco, algeria, pakistan, syria, but that does not make it an islamic country. many people who may be referred to as muslims, are not adhering to islam, so its very important to understand the difference between a country or a peoples culture, and what is from islam.
    Last edited by *asiya*; 23-02-12 at 12:23 PM.
    "O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." [An-Nisa 4:135]

    The Prophet said:

    "Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah."

    muslim

    Narrated 'Abdullah:

    The Prophet, said, "Abusing a Muslim is Fusuq (evil doing) and killing him is Kufr (disbelief)." sahih bukhari


    "Creeping upon you is the diseases of those people before you: envy and hatred. And hatred is the thing that shaves. I do not say it shaves the hair but it shaves the religion!

    By the One in whose Hand is my soul, you will not enter paradise until you believe, and you will not believe until you love one another. Certainly, let me inform you of that which may establish such things: spread the greetings and peace among yourselves."

    [Recorded by Imam Ahmad and Al-Tirmidhi]


  10. #10
    ~ Allahu Akbar ~ dhak1yya's Avatar
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    Re: I REALLY need to learn about Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by rosella View Post
    Yay! I was scared this topic wouldn't go through because I'm a new member and my last one didn't.
    Thank you for that information though, cause it's helped clarify what kind of questions I should be asking and what I need to find out about.

    Let me rethink my previous question/s.

    How do you apply something written hundreds or thousands years ago to life you go through today?
    People haven't changed. Have you heard of the "palaeo" diet (sometimes called the "primal" diet)? It's a diet for general health and the basic idea is instead of eating all these modern, highly processed foods that are responsible for so much diabetes, obesity and also have a higher risk of allergy and intolerance, and returning to the diet of our ancestors: fresh, unprocessed natural food as it grows in the ground. The more "hardcore" among those following this way of eating will also avoid dairy products and grains as these have only been eaten in post-agricultural societies, and are not eaten in hunter-gatherer societies.

    Why is this hypothesised to be a really healthy way to eat? Because humans haven't changed. Even if you believe in evolution rather than creation* humans have not changed for the last 40,000 years. The human gut is not designed(evolved)* for modern "foods" like trans fats, MSG, high fructose corn syrup, foods you stick in the microwave out of a packet full of e-numbers etc. They aren't good for us, because they're not what our bodies are adapted to process.

    The same applies for many other things in life. Society may have changed, but human beings haven't. We're not designed(evolved)* for the way of life we have now. Look at all the problems of today: high levels of depression, high levels of substance abuse, high levels of crime from disaffected youth, eating disorders and body dysmorphic disorder (in no small part caused by the bombardment of images showing semi naked airbrushed models to fit an image that isn't how the female body usually looks), broken homes, broken communities (caused by high levels of babies being born outside of marriage, resulting in the lack of stable families) and all the disaffection and mental health problems that causes, small kids spending so many hours a day in daycare and hardly seeing their parents because both parents are working.........

    Is this the life that we're designed for? No. The Islamic way of life takes into account how human beings actually are. It's not trying to subject us to some false ideal or to force us into an unnatural situation. The rules in Islam for marriage and families take into account individual differences between people but are based on how people *actually* are. The rules for how to run an Islamic society takes into account how people actually are.

    *please don't get into this debate on this thread, it's secondary to the point being made

    Also as a Muslim or as a person today do you consider yourself a post-modernist?

    Post Modernism is the belief that there is no ultimate truth and so it is not right to enforce one's own beliefs onto another person, group or institution.
    That's not what I understand by postmodernism. What you describe sounds more like Aleister Crowley's Law of Thelema. Post modernism means getting away from the constant progression towards "modernism" i.e. more technology, more advancement, more industrialisation, more civilisation** and returning to the appreciation of things considered more "primitive" by the modernists, e.g. tribal cultures. I can see how this belief arises from post modernism (i.e. the tribe formerly considered primitive have just as valid a way of life as our modern way of life) but actually I don't agree with it. Some ways of life are better than others, and in some cases it can be swings and roundabouts, as in the tribal culture is totally sustainable and live in complete harmony with the environment, however they don't have access to modern medicine. Rather than the post modernist attitude of leaving them be and not interfering, I'd favour giving them the choice (note the word choice) of accessing modern medicine, i.e. make it available to them if they want to use it. And the "civilised" (I use the word facetiously, because of it's other meaning) world needs to learn how to live in harmony with nature and the environment.

    **meaning building of bigger and bigger cities, i.e. the original meaning of civilisation

    Fact is some ways of life are better than others. Some beliefs *do* have to be enforced on others, for example the belief that it's wrong to kill babies. If there was a society where babies were being killed for fun, or because the people preferred one gender of baby over the other, or because they believed they had to sacrifice babies to keep their gods happy, then absolutely people should intervene, stop them from doing this.

    That's an extreme case, but it's just to illustrate that no-one really believes what you say, there comes a point where you do force your beliefs on someone else. The question is where you draw the line. i.e. where you let people just get on with their lives, where you let them get on with things an try to educate them to do something better, and where you force someone to stop doing a certain thing. Every society does all these things. Secularists like to kid themselves that they're giving everyone the freedom of believing what they want, while teaching their own views in school and making laws banning certain things. France is an example of extremist secularists, banning niqaab, banning all expression of religion in schools while teaching secularism....

    With regards to how much Muslims tolerate non-Muslim religions (which is where I believe your question is aiming) here's the answer:

    - Muslim states can draw up peace treaties with non-Muslim states, agreeing to non-aggression, rules to keep people safe and prevent oppression and so on. So a non-Muslim and a Muslim state can live at peace with each other through such treaties, when there's no oppression going on.

    - non-Muslims can live as protected people in an Islamic state, and they are free to believe what they want and practice their religion in private. Jews and Christians living as protected people within an Islamic state have the right to live by their own religious laws with matters that don't affect Muslims, e.g. marriage, divorce, settling disputes between people within their own community, dealing with criminals within their own community (e.g. if a Christian steals from a Christian then the Christians can rule according to their laws, but if a Christian steals from a Muslim it would go to the Islamic court).

    - laws for dress code would apply, but many scholars do not agree with forcing non-Muslim women to wear the headscarf or niqaab, although they' have to follow the basic standards for modesty (e.g. in Saudi Arabia all women have to wear an abaya, but don't have to wear a headscarf or niqaab) - the same would apply for men, i.e. follow the basic standards for modesty but no legal requirement to have a beard or a particular style of head dress. There is some disagreement among scholars, some believe that Islamic dress code (i.e. the extent that someone should cover up, there's no requirement in Islam for any particular style of clothing) should apply equally to Muslims and non-Muslims.

    - protected non-Muslims do not have to do military service (in an Islamic state, during a war, all able bodied Muslim men are obliged to fight) instead they pay a tax in lieu of this, which as far as I know would be used to equip the Muslim army (which is protecting the non-Muslims in the state, not just the Muslims, hence the term "protected person" (arabic: dhimmi)





  11. #11
    Odan Al-Farooq's Avatar
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    Re: I REALLY need to learn about Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by rosella View Post
    Also as a Muslim or as a person today do you consider yourself a post-modernist?
    A Muslim cannot be a true post-modernist, as we believe there are certain objectives truths such as the existence of God, and further, an individual cannot "interpret" God, or "understand" God based upon what God means to them as an individual.

    In other words, we not only believe God exists as an objective truth, but we also believe God to have certain attributes and qualities that exist and cannot be interpreted subjectively.

    For us, the search for understanding is not based upon an exploration of making sense of the world through what post-modernists would call "our individual realities", it is about submitting our selves and our desires in order to achieve a clearer focus of, and better relationship with, the entirely objective and non-relative reality that is the existence of God.

    There is no relative truth for us, as truth is established through very concrete, very certain principles.

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    Re: I REALLY need to learn about Islam

    Quote Originally Posted by rosella View Post
    Yay! I was scared this topic wouldn't go through because I'm a new member and my last one didn't.
    Thank you for that information though, cause it's helped clarify what kind of questions I should be asking and what I need to find out about.

    Let me rethink my previous question/s.

    How do you apply something written hundreds or thousands years ago to life you go through today?
    Also as a Muslim or as a person today do you consider yourself a post-modernist?

    Post Modernism is the belief that there is no ultimate truth and so it is not right to enforce one's own beliefs onto another person, group or institution. It's also a tricky belief/philosophy because it claims nothing can be defined or absolute and so Post Modernism in itself is unstable and questionable. It's kinda like the idea of nothing/no one being black and white but in shades of grey.

    Have you also had any struggles with discrimination or anything of the sorts in a western country?
    What is wrong with applying something that is hundreds or thousands of years old ? Times have changed, infact they are always changing but the problems are all the same, just under a different disguise.

    Ultimate truth (or a lack of it) is a subjective matter and the fact that some post modernists will try and enforce that mindset onto others is really exemplative of their own hypocrisy. You see, everyone believes that what they believe in is the truth otherwise they wouldnt believe in it. Besides, why limit it to religion ? Isn't democracy/captialism being force-fed to the masses in the eastern world ?


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