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Thread: The future for Muslims in Europe?

  1. #1
    fundaMENTAList is on a distinguished road
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    The future for Muslims in Europe?

    Interesting article:

    "If we don't take drastic measures to modernize our culture, Muslims will continue to live in the dark ages"

    Can Dutch Muslims convince voters Islam Is tolerant?
    Wall Street Journal Europe 14/5/02

    By Dan Bilefsky.

    AMSTERDAM - Making his way past a drag queen in a pink feather boa, Imam Marzouk Aulad Abdullah stepped on the stage at a gay pride festival earlier this month. "I do not have a gay detector at the entrance of my mosque - anybody is welcome to come and pray," he said, to hoots and cheers from the crowd. "Islam is a humanistic religion and we must be open to everyone."

    Off to the side, Oussama "Sam" Cherribi beamed. A Moroccan-born member of the Dutch Parliament, Mr. Cherribi has become the spin doctor of the Dutch Muslim community. He orchestrated the imam's appearance and persuaded him to wear a Western suit rather than his traditional Moroccan djellabah. He coaches the soft-spoken religious leader for television appearances, telling him to smile at the camera and to pepper his speeches with terms like "tolerance," "humanism" and "progressive Islam." He also translates the Dutch-speaking imam's words into French or English.

    "We Muslims need an outspoken person who can show that we are not backward, and Oussama acts as my eyes and ears," Imam Marzouk says.

    With national elections Wednesday, Mr. Cherribi is leading a campaign to convince a skeptical electorate that Islam is tolerant even by Holland's famously liberal standards. His efforts, begun a year ago, acquired more urgency with the surge in popularity of candidate Pim Fortuyn, who branded Islam a "backward religion" that threatened Dutch acceptance of homosexuality and women's rights. After Mr. Fortuyn's assassination last week, his party is expecting a large sympathy vote. The election may be determined, in part, by how many Dutch voters choose Mr. Fortuyn's party as a statement against immigration.

    In an opinion poll released Monday, the first since Mr. Fortuyn's death, his party polled 18.5%, two percentage points behind the right-of-center Christian Democrats. The poll, by the Amsterdam pollster NIPO, had a margin of error of 1.3 percentage points. If the Fortuyn party does as well in the actual voting, it stands a good chance of becoming part of the governing coalition.

    Mr. Cherribi's tolerance campaign faces daunting challenges. Traditionalists within the Dutch Muslim population of nearly one million people accuse Mr. Cherribi of selling out Islamic values in the hope of gaining votes and respectability. Yassin Hartog, director of the Islamic Citizenship Office in The Hague, says Mr. Cherribi's campaign has offended many Muslims. "There is a backlash against him because many in the Muslim community feel he has sold out to the `whities' and see him as an apologist for ignorant assimilation policies," Mr. Hartog says.

    Fearful that Mr. Cherribi isn't resonating with enough voters, the Liberal Party, a right-of-center member of the governing coalition, dropped him from its list of candidates for Wednesday's election. "Ousamma was too much of an intellectual and a bit too `out there' for the typical Dutch voter," says Hans van Baalen, a party spokesman. Undeterred, Mr. Cherribi says he will run for the European Parliament in 2004, and so press his policies in a broader forum.

    The 42-year-old Mr. Cherribi came to Amsterdam in 1983 from Rabat. After completing a doctoral degree on Dutch imams, he became a Dutch citizen and joined the Liberal Party, which advocates integrating immigrants into mainstream Dutch society. In 1994, he won a seat in Parliament, representing Amsterdam. "I'm looking for the citizen in the migrant and not the migrant in the citizen," his campaign posters declared.

    But while Mr. Fortuyn wanted to bar further immigration, claiming the Netherlands was "full," Mr. Cherribi advocates allowing more migrants into the country and integrating them. He wants all Dutch immigrants to memorize the national anthem and urges the government to bus immigrant children to schools that are now all-white. He calls for the Dutch government to create a course to teach imams about Dutch tolerance. And he has proposed the training of "homegrown" imams, arguing that they will be less doctrinaire than those from Islamic countries.

    "Imams need to learn that there is a separation between church and state and that they need to follow Dutch laws rather than the Quran," he says.

    In many Islamic countries, homosexual behavior is considered a crime, sometimes punishable by death. In the Quran, there are seven quotations referring to the "people of Lot" - or the Sodomites - whose punishment is linked with their sexual deviance, says Omar Nahas, author of a book on homosexuality and Islam.

    But there isn't an explicit reference to homosexuality, making it difficult to come to any clear conclusions, says Imam Mazouk, who appeared at the gay pride rally. "Muhammad says that every human being is a construction of Allah," he says. "If the Prophet can show such compassion, why can't we treat homosexuals as Muslims?"

    To try to prod Dutch imams to take a broader view, Mr. Cherribi last year organized a Dutch language course in Amsterdam for a dozen conservative imams. One big problem was their resistance to being taught by women wearing skirts and blouses. He also shepherded a group of Muslim leaders to the Dutch Parliament for a panel discussion about Islam's attitudes toward homosexuality and women's emancipation.

    But relations continued to deteriorate. Early this year, Dutch media focused on an attack on an openly gay Dutch schoolteacher by Moroccan-born youths. That was followed by a television interview with Khalil El Moumni, the leader of the a Nasr mosque in Rotterdam, who called homosexuality a sickness. "If men continue to marry men and women continue to marry women, then Dutch society will disappear," the imam said. After the interview, two members of the Dutch Parliament demanded that the imam be deported to Morocco. Now the imam refuses to speak to the press, and his friends say that he is so afraid of the backlash that he seldom leaves his mosque.

    "There was a lot of fear and misunderstanding about Islam in Dutch society and the incident just served to confirm the stereotype," Mr. Cherribi says.

    The Sept. 11 terrorist attacks in the U.S. heightened anti-Muslim sentiment throughout Europe. During the following month, there were 70 attacks against mosques in the Netherlands, one of the highest tolls in Europe, according to the Moroccan Association of Mosques. The Sultan Ahmet mosque in Zaandam, one of the biggest Turkish mosques in the country, was nearly burned to the ground by arsonists. The Dutch intelligence agency said it stepped up investigations of mosque-funded schools to see whether children were being taught to hate the Netherlands. The Dutch left-wing political magazine HP Detijd captured the mood when it published a cover story with the headline "What's Wrong with Islam?"

    For his part, Mr. Cherribi tried to show a different face of Islam. He renamed himself "Sam" and draped himself in an American flag during an address to the Parliament by the queen. "Having the same name as the bearded al Qaeda chief is too much of a burden to bear for a Dutch politician," he says.

    After Mr. Fortuyn's assassination, Mr. Cherribi went into overdrive, touring mosques around the country, organizing debates about Islam and Dutch society and stepping up his efforts to recruit imams to the cause. A few days after Mr. Fortuyn's murder, Mr. Cherribi told Muslim leaders gathered in a large Amsterdam mosque that unless they promote tolerance, "the Fortuyn message may be adopted by more extreme groups who see him as a martyr."

    At the urging of Mr. Cherribi and others, about 200 Turkish, Moroccan and North African leaders from across the country laid wreaths of flowers at Mr. Fortuyn's home after the assassination. A young Muslim woman wearing a headdress left a banner: "This wasn't necessary."

    Mr. Cherribi is continuing to look for allies. This past weekend, he made a stop at Habibi Ana, an Arabic gay bar in Amsterdam, to confer with Chafik Kadir, a 36 year-old Moroccan-born immigrant who is gaining prominence in the Muslim gay community. Inside the cavernous bar, Muslim men of all ages greet each other with "Salem Alaykum" and gyrate on the dance floor to the sound of Turkish pop.

    Mr. Kadir, who "came out" at the recent gay pride festival, says he's determined to show other young gay Muslims that they needn't be ashamed of their sexual orientation. He even praises Mr. Fortuyn for forcing the Muslim community to confront its taboos. "I was thrilled when he entered Dutch politics - here, finally, was someone willing to talk about issues that no one else would dare mention," he says, before taking a sip of his beer.

    The youngest of 10 children in a conservative mosque-going family, Mr. Kadir will appear this month as a guest on a televised panel discussion titled "Coming Out of the Muslim Closet." He volunteers for Youssef, a gay Muslim organization that counsels young Muslims struggling to come to terms with their sexuality. "In my community it is dangerous to come out - if people find out you're gay, they think that you're a prostitute," he says.

    Resistance to the tolerant-Islam message is evident in The Hague, about 50 kilometers away. Kneeling on the Persian carpet of the El-Islam Mosque after Friday afternoon prayers, Talib Aakel, a 26 year-old electrician, says he rejects the term "gay Muslim."

    "Homosexuality is strictly forbidden by the Quran," he says. "Assimilation shouldn't mean that I have to drink alcohol or that my sister must wear a short skirt."

    But Mr. Cherribi is undeterred. He is preparing a database of progressive imams across Europe whom he hopes to sign up for his campaign. "Other Muslim leaders like to kiss ass to other Muslims, but if we don't take drastic measures to modernize our culture, Muslims will continue to live in the dark ages," he says.

  2. #2
    Odan Bilal is on a distinguished road Bilal's Avatar
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    Dear fundaMENTAList

    May I can understand your opinion and most of European about Muslims, but lets talk logically.

    Who is the reason of Muslims immigration to Europe?
    Could you ignore that fact that the former imperialism countries (UK and France) who cheated the Arab in 1WW and divided their countries. My town was destroyed completely by British army in 1WW, till now you can find hundreds of human bones in the caves. You can hear from old people how British army treated them and gave their lands to Jews settlers.


    Could you ignore that UK and France did terrible things in our countries, if you check the roots of all problems: Palestine, Kurdstan and Kashmir, you will find UK behind it. Even the border problems between Iraq-Iran, Syria-Turkey, Egypt-Sudan, Morocco -Algeria...........were made by UK and France.

    May most of Europe do not need wars now, but you can not ignore the fact that UK still supporting the American wars.

    Those immigrants came to Europe because their countries not stable due to the long military occupation of the west.

    India was part from UK also Algeria was part from France so you should accept those immigrants as part from your nations.


    Please, read the modern history, and you will realise that Muslim and Arab are not so bad and Europe is not so good.

  3. #3
    fundaMENTAList is on a distinguished road
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    Bilal,

    You are right in that everything has historical roots. My father did his military service in Palestine in the late forties and had a burning sense of the insanity of British policy in Palestine, firstly pro-Zionist and then pro-Arab. This, he says, destroyed any trust and has led to the present misery.

    You could say also that the problems in the Indian sub-continent come from more British end-Imperial incompetence. And you would be partially right.

    But hindsight is a very easy viewpoint. I don't doubt that the governors making those decisions were acting in good faith.

    The sad fact is that some countries have moved beyond decolonisation and have done well, others have not. When we look into why they have not, we come up against cultural and racial and religious parameters that have to be looked at closely.

    Anyway, to get back to the original point of this thread, migrants into European countries (from formerly colonised countries or not) have a simple choice. Go with the flow of the host society, or go against the flow.

    Sam Cherribi in is trying to make a difference in Holland. It's a shame there's no equivalent in Britain.
    Last edited by fundaMENTAList; 28-05-02 at 04:32 AM.

  4. #4
    Odan Bilal is on a distinguished road Bilal's Avatar
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    fundaMENTAList

    My father was fighter against Britain and Zionist organisation in the 40s. I am glad that my father and your father did not kill each other.

    I never agree with those who blame the West for everything. I could be glad if OBL used his money to build Afghanistan instead of establishing military groups..........

    The imperialism period finished, but even that Europe should not declare complete wars against middle eastern countries because the world will be not secure place for any human!

    My point,

    Europe should help Middle East countries to be democratic also the only solution for Islamic organisations is to accept them in this democratic system. In Palestine, there are free election in Universities, this forced the Islamic and Left organisations to have more responsibility. They need support from public to win the election so they used to be so kind with Christian (who are majority in two universities from 9) and girls who represent 55% of students in Palestine. Also they became pragmatic. In 1996, the majority in Palestine did not support the suicide bombers so these organisations forced to stop the attack not by Israel or PA but by the public opinion. You find 20% of girls who supporting Islamic groups wearing western clothes without problem, and they accepted them because they need their support. Also they have (e.g. HAMAS) wide charity network which help a lot the people.

    If you take Syria or Algeria as other examples of countries who do not accepted Islamic organisations: you will find these organisations converted into secret military groups who willing to revenge and out of control. I am sure that providing kind of democratic environment is enough to solve the entire problem in our countries.

    If western countries declared wars against Middle Eastern countries, this could change everything to the worse, especially attacking Iraq.

  5. #5
    Odan Sultan has a spectacular aura about Sultan has a spectacular aura about Sultan's Avatar
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    LOL!

    More rot from Fundi!

    He just comes here wanting all muslims to sell out on their faith by posting examples such as tollerance towards sodomy.

    Muslims are commanded to forbid wrong actions and command the right actions.

    To tollerate something like sodomy is to fail in our faith.

    do western expatriates intergrate in muslim countries they live in?

    Of course not!!!!!

    Just look at the behaviour of western expatriates in Dubai or Morocco and you will know what I mean!

  6. #6
    Member The_Vet III is on a distinguished road
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    Bilal - you stated "Who is the reason of Muslims immigration to Europe?
    Could you ignore that fact that the former imperialism countries (UK and France) who cheated the Arab in 1WW and divided their countries. My town was destroyed completely by British army in 1WW, till now you can find hundreds of human bones in the caves. You can hear from old people how British army treated them and gave their lands to Jews settlers"

    The Vets response -- It seems that there is discrepancy in what led up to the Jews being handed Israel at the expense of some
    Palestinians. Most of the middle east was part of the Ottoman empire for hundreds of years. this included the area currently reffered to as Palestine/Israel along with several other countries in the that area. Where the real problem came about was that the Ottoman empire and its subjects in the mid east
    sided with Axis power Germany in world war one. Because the Ottoman empire sided with Germany and Germany lost the world war then the lands of the Ottomans became the possessions of the victors who won world war one. In this case it was England. So, England became the legal ruler of that part of the world. Thats what happens when you side with a nation that loses a war. At that point it was Great Britains legal right to do with the new land they acquired as they saw fit. Hence the Balfour Declaration.. This never really came about until after WWII when the state of Israel was formed. Thats how the rest of the world sees the situation. the Jews did not STEAL
    the land where Israel is , it was given to them by the legal rulers of that land at the time Israel was formed.

  7. #7
    Umm Asiya Noor has a reputation beyond repute Noor's Avatar
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    wow interesting view!!

    Islam is "backwards" "outdated," where in the world do people get their ideas from

    If you are a muslim, u except the laws of Allah without question. You cannot say u r a muslim yet contradict the teachings of it.

    Speaking of being outdated, i'd say judaism and christianity are well more outdated than islam, yet peple follow it (even if it has been changed), but they do not receive the harrassment that Islam does, why? is it because they accept the "modernisations" ie. being victims of oppression of the fashion houses.

    Islam does not need to be modernised and it is not backwords.
    Islam forbids gays, its a s simple as that, u wanna argue, go argue with Allah swt on the day of judgemnt, they are his laws, not the man made laws of "modern" socities, which decline every moral fibre in the human soul.

    Women are most certainly not opressed. Women have rights. Islam has given more rights to its women that the whole history of the western society. Its only in this last century that western women have fought for their "rights" islam gave women their roles, their rights, their chasity and protection!!

    Well if the dutch wanna "modernise" i can only say to them fear Allah and the day of judegemnt when u will be accountable for your "modernisations!!!"
    Last edited by Noor; 26-05-02 at 07:10 PM.
    Accept the changes in your life and they will accept you too

  8. #8
    Odan Bilal is on a distinguished road Bilal's Avatar
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    In 1WW, Arab under the leadership of the grandfather of King Hussain , sharif Abdullah, made agreement with UK. This agreement ask clearly:

    Arab will help UK by doing revolution against them, after the war: UK will give independence and Unity to the Arab people. This not from my ideas, I wish you saw the (Luarnce of Arab) Film which indicate clearly to this issue. In 1917, Arab started revolution against Ottoman Empire and helped UK to occupy Palestine, Jordan and Iraq.

    Unfortunately UK did not do what the promised Sharif Abdullah and they divided these countries also they gave Palestine to Jews.

    (P.S. Till now Turkish people hate Arab because they killed thousands of Turkish soldiers and helped UK against them in 1WW)


    Originally posted by The_Vet III
    Bilal - you stated "Who is the reason of Muslims immigration to Europe?
    Could you ignore that fact that the former imperialism countries (UK and France) who cheated the Arab in 1WW and divided their countries. My town was destroyed completely by British army in 1WW, till now you can find hundreds of human bones in the caves. You can hear from old people how British army treated them and gave their lands to Jews settlers"

    The Vets response -- It seems that there is discrepancy in what led up to the Jews being handed Israel at the expense of some
    Palestinians. Most of the middle east was part of the Ottoman empire for hundreds of years. this included the area currently reffered to as Palestine/Israel along with several other countries in the that area. Where the real problem came about was that the Ottoman empire and its subjects in the mid east
    sided with Axis power Germany in world war one. Because the Ottoman empire sided with Germany and Germany lost the world war then the lands of the Ottomans became the possessions of the victors who won world war one. In this case it was England. So, England became the legal ruler of that part of the world. Thats what happens when you side with a nation that loses a war. At that point it was Great Britains legal right to do with the new land they acquired as they saw fit. Hence the Balfour Declaration.. This never really came about until after WWII when the state of Israel was formed. Thats how the rest of the world sees the situation. the Jews did not STEAL
    the land where Israel is , it was given to them by the legal rulers of that land at the time Israel was formed.

  9. #9
    Odan Bilal is on a distinguished road Bilal's Avatar
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    I am so sorry that Taliban gave such idea about Islam. However we are on cross roads and I wish we would be in the right one.

    Originally posted by OmegaMan
    As long as the Taliban have the "right" to beat women, Islam will appear "wrong" to much of the world.

  10. #10
    Odan EVILution is on a distinguished road
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    Originally posted by OmegaMan
    As long as the Taliban have the "right" to beat women, Islam will appear "wrong" to much of the world.
    Propaganda.....propaganda......propaganda, lol have you ppl ever met the Taliban, I don't think so, so I suggest you shut your gob!
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  11. #11
    A truly Excellent Site F R E S H is on a distinguished road
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    The future is bright for muslims in Europe the Daiwah is strong, poarties like hizb ut tahrir and Al Muhajireoun have the capital of England as their strong holds ! the dawah in western Europe and central Asian states is very strong indeed
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    fundaMENTAList is on a distinguished road
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    Bilal said: My point, Europe should help Middle East countries to be democratic also the only solution for Islamic organisations is to accept them in this democratic system.

    Fundie replied: Of course you are right, democracy is the best political system for the Middle East and every else in the world, and Europe should do everything in its power to support the rights of Palestinians and Arabs worldwide. But you can see from this forum how anti-democratic and extremist so many British Muslims have become.

    Until our own Muslims reconnect with the mainstream, is it any wonder many look on Islam and despair?

  13. #13
    Modernator MalcomBanned4? is an unknown quantity at this point MalcomBanned4?'s Avatar
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    It is a fact that they had religous police that beat women with sticks for various reasons. FACT_YES? Then why was omegimans post deleted? (he get banned too?). Is there a "list" of a moderators opinions and views that we arn't supposed to address?
    Originally posted by OmegaMan As long as the Taliban have the "right" to beat women, Islam will appear "wrong" to much of the world.

  14. #14
    temporarily banned Raven is just really nice
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    Bilal said "Europe should help Middle East countries to be democratic...."

    Wouldn't that just be seen as more interference from kaffirs? Some people on this forum keep saying they hate democracy, hate the West, hate everything that's not Islamic.

    Why should Europe & all the West try to do this if we'll just be hated?
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  15. #15
    Odan Abdul-Curim is a jewel in the rough Abdul-Curim is a jewel in the rough Abdul-Curim is a jewel in the rough Abdul-Curim is a jewel in the rough Abdul-Curim's Avatar
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    muslims dont hate the west just for hatreds sake , generalisation is imprudent we hate anybody who tries to enforce on us their beliefs and value systems .

  16. #16
    ~*Muslimah*~ ukhtuk_fillaah is on a distinguished road
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    ::eek::

    As-Salaamu 'alaykum

    "Homosexuality is strictly forbidden by the Quran," he says. "Assimilation shouldn't mean that I have to drink alcohol or that my sister must wear a short skirt."
    I agree!

    He is preparing a database of progressive imams across Europe whom he hopes to sign up for his campaign. "Other Muslim leaders like to kiss ass to other Muslims, but if we don't take drastic measures to modernize our culture, Muslims will continue to live in the dark ages," he says.
    Modernize? And we live in dark age? Where does this man get his ideas from?
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  17. #17
    Sunni Hasan2004 is a splendid one to behold Hasan2004's Avatar
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    Voting in the west is proven fruitless!

    Voting in the west is proven fruitless!

    Look at the U.S. elections how pitiful it is for Muslim rights and minority rights! Only the Islamic State,.i.e. the Khilafah would deliver true freedom and liberties.

    Let us start the Khilafah! Now!




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